death:an ending?

[micah7:9]

Original post modified.

The way I understand 1Co 15:26  the last enemy is done away--death;
Until we are drawn to the Father, yes, death is an enemy.

"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."
Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.
Joh 12:24  verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;
Rev 1:8  `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming--the Almighty.'

Rom 8:11 If, moreover, the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from among the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised from among the dead Christ Jesus, shall make alive [even] your death–doomed bodies, through means of his indwelling Spirit within you.
(Rotherham)

[WhiteWings]

Micah,

For me it's not clear if death is just a door as in stepping from one life into another.
For me it just as well can mean death is going to sleep and be waked up after X years.
But because in sleep you have no awareness of time instantly or 1000 years just feels the same.
So imo a very minor point to think about.
But I think I would prefer teh long sleep variation. Then you wake up with all your family and friends.
No waiting a few decades before your friend dies so you can finally have a chat with him again.

So either way there is no fear in death.
The only 'fear' I have is getting old. I don't want to be dependant. I rather die 30 years earlier....
But death itself. Passing a door. A long sleep. Or nothing. Neither way there is fear in death.
:2c:

[micah7:9]

Wished I would have left the "door" part out, or used death is going to sleep.
Still, on this site I have been informed of sleep in several different ways that I aint so sure how to discipher the meanings.
Yet I like your thoughts. :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

I actually had planned to do some research on this tonight and perhaps start a thread on it.  So good job.   :thumbsup:

To the OP;  I believe all things new, especially of a new age, necessitate an ending - so there can be a new beginning.

Some other thoughts that bounce around in my head - I understand some differ, and we're still bro's and sis's and can remain in spiritual unity despite some different doctrinal understandings.  With God's help, I won't argue. I'll present my views, maybe expound a time or two, and go on to something else.  God will show all of us more, later, as we go.  "The greatest of these is love."  Amen.

From my personal view, without pulling specific scriptures together, I personally don't see earthly death as any longer being the enemy of a born again believer on Yesu.  A non-believer, in which the victory over death that Jesus obtained has not yet become life in them, and they are facing judgment;  but for a believer?  A saved child of God will not spiritually die, just because this body stops working.  IMO, this body dying, and what Jesus won for us spiritually, are 2 different things.  We WILL live forever, the part of us that's really us.  This temporary shell of clay?  Not necessarily.  

In the OT, it says God delights in the death of his saints.  Paul looked forward to it.  "Death/grave, where is your victory/sting?"  Jesus conquered the grave.  We will be resurrected, in a new spiritual body (I Cor. 15 - "there is an earthly body, and there is a spiritual body - [paraphrase] the seed must be planted before the plant can grow").

Now if some have the hope and do attain some sort of place of immortality in this life, then IMO, that's up to God/between them and God, and ALL according to His will.  It will be a blessing to them and be to God's glory and purpose.  They shouldn't be discouraged, but a balanced perspective may be in order.  Many will obtain their immortality without falling asleep, those "who are alive and remain" at His glorious appearing, changed in the twinkling of an eye.  There'll be no guesswork - it will be miraculous and clear for all to see.  But besides that, I believe BY FAR most will enter the next life/age by way of the grave, and that's the way God planned it.  That's how I understand it right now.

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."  I Cor. 15:19

[micah7:9]

I like it! Get the thread a goin! :grin:

[jabcat]

You already have brother!   :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

Micah,

For me it's not clear if death is just a door as in stepping from one life into another.
For me it just as well can mean death is going to sleep and be waked up after X years.
But because in sleep you have no awareness of time instantly or 1000 years just feels the same.
So imo a very minor point to think about.
But I think I would prefer teh long sleep variation. Then you wake up with all your family and friends.
No waiting a few decades before your friend dies so you can finally have a chat with him again.

So either way there is no fear in death.
The only 'fear' I have is getting old. I don't want to be dependant. I rather die 30 years earlier....
But death itself. Passing a door. A long sleep. Or nothing. Neither way there is fear in death.
:2c:

Who said you had to be weak when your old? This is a jumble of lies, many old people are in great shape, refuse the lies of the enemy and one can live a healthy life even when one is deemed old. There is no condemnation for being old before ones time, but one must contend for the promises of the lord YAH and overcome the conditioning of the world that conditions people through media and what they witness with their eyes to believe that when they hit a certain age then they must become weak.


Exodus 15:26   

And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee

Here's something you wont find the prosperity teachers teach

proverbs 3
3My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long [1] life, and peace, shall they add to thee. 3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: 4 So shalt thou find favour and good [2] understanding in the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health [3] to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. 9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. 11 My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction: 12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.


I refuse to grow old and weak in the name of Yahshua aka Jesus Christ for his word is true, health and prosperity belong to the people of YAH and no destruction shall befall us, praise his name YAH.

[jabcat]

I agree that as long as I'm here, I want to be vital and living the Lord's promises.  Then I hope He'll quickly take me home.  If He keeps me around into the next age, great!  His will be done.

[jabcat]

I agree that as long as I'm here, I want to be vital and living the Lord's promises.  Then I wanna quickly go home.  If He keeps me around into the next age, great!  His will be done.

I do know though, there are many who watch a family member suffer, and that's not easy.  Or some may even have a thorn in their flesh, be born with a crippled up or infirm body that in some way just doesn't work right.  God's will, and mercy prevail.

[micah7:9]

Being "alive" "having life" "living" has nothing at all to do with walking out the time in this body of flesh (DEATH). This body of flesh was NEVER meant to not die, and return to dust...it has its calling.
Jesus said Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
Now, I am in the mind set (thank you Jesus) that this is the realm of my  thought of living.
All the "stuff" in this world that I have, is but nothing ....Php 3:8  yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,

When is it that those who believe in Jesus the Saviour of the world, begin to realize we are dead and ONLY alive in Him, and that this "death" is not for...WE ARE ALIVE IN CHRIST.

[thinktank]

True but while we are here in the world lets live in health and abundance as the lord promises.
A healthy christian can do more for the kingdom of God than a sick one.

John 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

[WhiteWings]

True but while we are here in the world lets live in health and abundance as the lord promises.
A healthy christian can do more for the kingdom of God than a sick one.

Jesus was often sick....

[thinktank]

True but while we are here in the world lets live in health and abundance as the lord promises.
A healthy christian can do more for the kingdom of God than a sick one.

Jesus was often sick....

No, why would Jesus be sick  :laughing7:?

[WhiteWings]

Becaus ethe Bible says so. Good reason I think? :winkgrin:

[thinktank]

Becaus ethe Bible says so. Good reason I think? :winkgrin:

where?

[micah7:9]

Becaus ethe Bible says so. Good reason I think? :winkgrin:

where?

Where?

[Quaesitor]

Being "alive" "having life" "living" has nothing at all to do with walking out the time in this body of flesh (DEATH). This body of flesh was NEVER meant to not die, and return to dust...it has its calling.
Jesus said Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
Now, I am in the mind set (thank you Jesus) that this is the realm of my  thought of living.
All the "stuff" in this world that I have, is but nothing ....Php 3:8  yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,

When is it that those who believe in Jesus the Saviour of the world, begin to realize we are dead and ONLY alive in Him, and that this "death" is not for...WE ARE ALIVE IN CHRIST.

I join you in prayer that we all come to the full understanding of this beautiful TRUTH!

[WhiteWings]

Becaus ethe Bible says so. Good reason I think? :winkgrin:

where?

Where?

I'll post the verses tonight. The verse says something similar to He has to experience all human "negativities". I think it is in John. But it must also be in the OT because for example current day Jews reject Jesus because they expect an ill person.

[WhiteWings]

Was Jesus Ever Sick?

by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1999


The title of this Doctrinal Report is plain enough and it is vitally important that we understand the answer. So essential is the proper answer to this question. It was one of the first queries in my initial theological quest that I began to ask myself. I also asked ministers of the Gospel for their answers. All of us should want to know (and we need to know) if Jesus was ever ill? Was he ever violently sick or perhaps mildly infirm for even a day in his life? The principal reason we ask such a question is because Jesus is defined in the New Testament as the very Son of God, the firstborn member of the Godhead (Colossians 1:15-22). So, can God get sick? Can a person without personal sin (such as Jesus) ever bear the consequences of sin that result in sicknesses and infirmities? Recall what the apostle Peter taught under divine inspiration. He wrote: "Who [Jesus] did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who [Jesus], when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self [Jesus] bare our sins in his own body on the tree [a real live tree, not some dead planks of cut timber], that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes [by the cuts and the wounds of Jesus] ye were healed" (I Peter 2:22-24).

There is also something else to consider. Not only should we ask "Was Jesus Ever Sick?" but we should also ask "Can True Christians Get Sick Because of Their Sins?" Why should we inquire of such a question? Because Peter said that because Christ bore our sins on the tree of crucifixion, that "ye were healed." It seems to say in this inspired word that if Christ suffered for us on the tree (and also dying for each of us) and that Jesus actually paid for the sins that made us sick, then none of us should ever get sick because of our sins. Yes, that is correct. That is the proper interpretation. Note that Peter said without equivocation to all Christians: "ye are healed"? True, that is what Peter dogmatically states. The simple truth is, biblical teaching shows the practicing of sin can bring on sicknesses, and the greater the sins the worse the sicknesses to which humans can be subject. Note what Christ taught after he miraculously healed a man of his malady: "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more lest a worse thing come unto thee" (John 5:14). Yes, but this event happened BEFORE Christ bore our sins for us and died for us on the tree. The fact is, NOW that Christ Jesus has borne our sins and died for us, NONE OF US ever get sick any longer because of our sins (no matter how minor or major they are). Read my new book titled: "The Essentials of New Testament Doctrine" where I place all of the teaching of the Scriptures together in a format that can easily be understood. That book points out the biblical teaching that all Christians are now considered sinless in God's eyes (I John 3:9). God no longer chastises us because of sins that we may commit (and recall, we are sinners – see I John 1:8). He does not use that kind of punishment upon us who are "in Christ." All of us are now healed from such sins (I Peter 2:24).

If this is the case, why do we yet get sick or have infirmities? I just recently had what some people call a "pinched nerve" that gave me severe pains down my right leg into my foot and toes. I could literally not walk except in agonizing pain. I was bedridden for two and a half months. I am now up and around by finding out the problem to my pain and by doing exercises to relieve it. True, God may have been chastising me for some reason (though I have no idea what it could have been), but I know one thing for certain, God was NOT punishing me for some sin or sins that I have been committing. God no longer brings on sickness and afflictions on His people because of their sins. After all, our sins have been taken away by the bearing of Christ of our sins (and those of the world) and because of this "ye are healed" of all sicknesses that were formerly given by God as a result of sins. But why did I become ill if it were NOT for some sin (or sins) that I have supposedly committed? The answer is simple if one will pay close attention to the Holy Scriptures. Note what the apostle Paul said in Romans 8:19-39.

"For the earnest expectation of the creature [that is, the creation, the physical Universe] waiteth for the manifestation of the Sons of God [for the time of our resurrections]. For the creature [again, the creation, the physical Universe] was made subject to vanity [Greek: debilitation, weakness and decay], not willingly [creation did NOT willingly desire to be in a decaying state], but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same [to weakness and decay] in hope, that the creation itself also shall be delivered from that bondage of corruption [of debilitation and decay] into the liberty of the glory of the Children of God [at our resurrections from the dead]. For we know that the whole creation [all the physical Universe] groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they [the physical Universe], BUT OURSELVES ALSO, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, EVEN WE GROAN WITHIN OURSELVES, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.... Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities [our sicknesses and weaknesses in the flesh]: for we know not what we should pray for: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us [that Spirit who intercedes in Romans 8:34 is identified as Christ] with groanings which cannot be uttered.... And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his [God's] purpose."

Listen, that sciatic nerve pain that I experienced for two and a half months was not God chastising me for a sin or sins that I have done, are doing, or will do. Since Christ bore our sins in His body during His life (John 1:29) and on the tree of crucifixion, the Father no longer reckons us as sinners and we are accounted to be completely righteous as is Christ because we are now reckoned to be "in Him" (II Corinthians 5:21). We have no sins on us or in us (that is, reckoned to us by God) so we do not get sick because of sins (any type of sin that we might commit). But why do we who are "the Firstfruits of the Spirit [Christ]" still get sick – and quite often and sometimes severely? It is simply because we are still fleshly in body. We have not yet inherited our spiritual body that we will obtain in the redemption [the resurrection]. We are no different than all other physical things in the Universe that God has made subject to debilitation, weakness and decay. Indeed, look at the animals. Cattle and horses cannot sin, but they get sick just like we humans do. Dogs and cats cannot sin in any way, but they also get sick. Look at the Flora World (all plants). They also can become plagued and even die, and they do not sin in the least. And so it is with us. God no longer allows us to get sick because of our various sins (of course, if you call eating a green apple and the consequent stomach ache a sin, then your designation of "sin" can cause discomfort).

The simple truth is, all sicknesses and infirmities that people now experience (even we who are the Firstfruits of the Spirit) are because we are a part of the physical Universe that has not yet been redeemed from its debilitation and decay. Now, you can overeat, undereat, not eat the right things, overwork, underwork, and get banged up in a football game and you (or I) can suffer for such actions. But God does not reckon that these are sins that bring on your sicknesses. Indeed, as far as those sins are concerned (as Peter said) "ye are healed" (I Peter 2:21-24). All our sicknesses now are a result of our weak body frames (being made of tenuous flesh) and they are subject to decay and ruin (and finally death, see Hebrews 9:27). True, God can show mercy and heal us of our afflictions, or He can let us continue to be ill, but we can rest assured that none of our infirmities is brought on us by God because of our sins or our evil ways. God has eliminated our sins in Christ. Read my book on the "Essentials."

As for Jesus and sickness, the question should be rephrased: "Was Jesus Ever Well?" Though Jesus was never a sinner, He was bearing our sins during His entire life on earth. This made Him continually sickly (read Isaiah 53:1-12). People were always saying to Him: "Physician, heal yourself" (Luke 4:23). For a full account of the sicknesses that plagued Jesus during His lifetime, read chapter 23* of my book "Secrets of Golgotha." Recall, Jesus was sickly not because of His sins, but because He was bearing our sins (and the world's). So, sins are no longer a factor in Christian illnesses. "Ye are healed."

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d990701.htm

* I'll scan and post that tonight

[Cardinal]

Being "alive" "having life" "living" has nothing at all to do with walking out the time in this body of flesh (DEATH). This body of flesh was NEVER meant to not die, and return to dust...it has its calling.

:cloud9: Some reflections......and what if the "dust" it is we are to return to has nothing to do with the earthen clay you see out there, but is a different kind of "dust", like say, the dust of GOLD?

This body shall PUT ON immortality, and gold is represented as the higher nature of God in the golden instruments of the Tabernacle and the ark of the covenant in type. If God was going to make a man in His image, why did we assume that meant a vessel of clay ORIGINALLY, when the pattern shows GOLD which comes out of the earth? For we are to be SWALLOWED UP of immortality (gold), just like the craptim wood of the ark was covered in gold.

This has been running thru me lately because I was given spiritual eyes to see my "glorified inner man" and it looked like LIVING GOLD CELLS that were "vibrating" really, really fast, when I first came to the Lord. I knew nothing of the bible that day, didn't know it said He quickens your mortal body. Quickens means to speed up or give life to. Well, I saw the life it was given within myself and it looked like a body made of cells of gold that was alive with the Spirit. This would explain why His glory is described as brighter than the sun (which appears golden).

Since God's judgments are unto victory, pronouncing that fallen man would return to the dust, is more blessing than curse, BUT the walking out of it would be hard labor (excuse the pun) "mining" the GOLD out of the earthen vessels that contain it.

Also, the day He showed me there was no rapture, I had a little crying jag telling him that night, "Lord, I feel like I'm losing my mind! Everything I thought was the truth was a lie and everything I thought was a lie was the truth!" And plain as day, He spoke to me, "I'm returning you to the dust!"

I had no understanding on that whatsoever at the time, couldn't figure out how my "dying" was a comfort, LOL. Just some of my thoughts......Blessings...

[eaglesway]

Beautiful thoughts.



Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Pet 1:4)

Sown corruptible. Raised incorruptible.


For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
(2Co 4:16-18)

[micah7:9]

I do not know how we got here in the thread, but since its here and not "Death: and ending," Ill add my 2 cents
What I find that there is always this collision of man in Gen.1 and man in Gen. 2.
Man seems to fold them together, I contend they are very seperate.
The man of Gen. 1 is man of prophecy, still being created (mankind) being made in the image and likenss of "us." What I find is that we take this conception of image and likeness, bring the characteristics down to our level of understanding, so that we have "us" looking like human beings.
This is my understanding of image and likeness, which is SPOKEN (the WORD)
Image Gen. 1:26
H6754 to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, I Believe that IMAGE is Spirit, God is Spirit. (Jo. 4:24)

Likeness Gen.1:26
H1823 resemblance; concretely model, shape; I believe that LIKENESS is Nature
God is Love. (IJo.4:8)

The man of Gen.2:7 is a form, a living soul, made up of the "dust of the ground" this dust is the pulverized powder of the ground that covers earth, I would say it is the doormat where all underfoot gets walked on.
Later, in Gen. 3:17 the Lord God curses the ground.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Lefein]

Jesus didn't have to experience "every" negativity of being human, not in the sense of what we think of it...

I don't think Christ had a check list of every human condition that he had to experience.

He never broke a bone after all, and the angels where given charge over him that he should never even dash his foot against a stone.

All the physical pain, and ailments of weakness where experienced I'd say, in the flogging of his body, and the disrespect towards him - being spit on for example.  And then carrying his cross until he was too weak to do so; a man named Simon had to help him.

It would I think, be at that point when Simon was called to carry the yoke of the King - that Christ experienced to the fulfilling of obedience, doing his task despite frail, weak, hopelessness, his body surely sore, and throbbing, still bleeding, and still in such pain - his gashes, and stripes had no time to close.  For all intents and purposes, he was sickened then, but he did not "get sick" as the Son of Man in his ministry.  

"By his stripes we are healed."

Through the flogging, he bore the sicknesses of man.  Not through his ministry in the land.

It is my conclusion that Christ was perfectly healthy throughout all of his life - until the time came to fulfill his hour; starting right after the passover meal.

[micah7:9]

Lefein..... :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

It is my conclusion that Christ was perfectly healthy throughout all of his life - until the time came to fulfill his hour; starting right after the passover meal.

I wonder what you base that conclusion on?
Some verses perhaps?