Interesting passage

[Quaesitor]

Jeremiah 11

1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2 "Listen to the terms of this covenant and tell them to the people of Judah and to those who live in Jerusalem. 3 Tell them that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Cursed is the man who does not obey the terms of this covenant- 4 the terms I commanded your forefathers when I brought them out of Egypt, out of the iron-smelting furnace.' I said, 'Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God. 5 Then I will fulfill the oath I swore to your forefathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey'-the land you possess today."

The iron-smelting furnace was bondage in Egypt. It did not destroy/torment Israel but sure molded them as God wanted them to be.
It is a use of the fire/burning image and again in a molding/purifying use.

[eaglesway]

Very awesome verses.


John Van Tuyl wrote a very edifying treatment on this topic, here is the link to an excellent excerpt

http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/book_excerpt.aspx?bookid=45166

sigler.org has a link to a pdf of the book, which is titled "Salted With Fire"

[Quaesitor]

Nice excerpt, too bad lighthouse library doesn't have the book.

[WhiteWings]

27 pages

[Quaesitor]

Thank you

[lomarah]

 :thumbsup: Very cool, I hadn't picked up on that before Quaesitor!
Also starting to read that book and it's wonderful.  :cloud9:

[Quaesitor]

There's so much richess in Jeremiah, I love it.

[Quaesitor]

More coming, even better:

Deu 4:20  And you hath Jehovah taken, and He is bringing you out from the iron furnace from Egypt, to be to Him for a people an inheritance, as at this day.


Esa 48:10  Lo, I have refined thee, and not with silver, I have chosen thee in a furnace of affliction.

More showing that fire is indeed a symbolism of purification and not of tormenting.

[thinktank]

This came to me as we have been discussing literal vs spiritual of the scriptures, so when I looked at the lake of fire scripture in the book of revelation, one thing is that scripture is talking about the spirit so it makes sense to keep it spiritual so that even the fire is also spiritual.

I mean the scripture talks about people who were in hell, taken out to stand before the great white throne room. Since flesh and blood cannot live to see God, then it must be talking about a spiritual nature and cannot be flesh and blood, though I do not say that that revelation scripture doesnt mean something else, but if we take that scripture to be literal, and that there is a great white throne room and people are brought up out of hell and the sea, hell being the physical dead, and the sea being the spiritually dead but yet alive on earth remnant of humanity, then its logical to conclude that if the people be spiritual and not flesh and blood then so be the lake of fire be spiritual and not a typical earthly fire and brimstone. The only other conclusion is that God turns the people into flesh and blood after judging them in heaven and those who's name are not written in the lambs book of life and casts them into a lake of fire upon the earth to destroy them.

[shawn]

I think fire has more than one symbolic reference in the Bible.  Yeast has some symbolism of evil in scripture but it's also used to symbolize growth.  In Matthew 13 I'm not sure I can see a cleansing, purifying fire in this passage.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

----------------------

Weeds would be an odd reference for symbolizing a refinement fire.  You don't throw weeds into the fire in order for it to come out wheat.  You throw weeds into the fire for it to be destroyed.

[jabcat]

wood, hay, stubble - in us?  And if I'm "one who is doing evil", then I need to be tossed into that fire so that can be [spiritually] burned out of me?  

Is God the ultimate fire, His direct Presence?  "Our God is a Consuming Fire".

Things I personally wonder.

[thinktank]

I think fire has more than one symbolic reference in the Bible.  Yeast has some symbolism of evil in scripture but it's also used to symbolize growth.  In Matthew 13 I'm not sure I can see a cleansing, purifying fire in this passage.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

----------------------

Weeds would be an odd reference for symbolizing a refinement fire.  You don't throw weeds into the fire in order for it to come out wheat.  You throw weeds into the fire for it to be destroyed.

This says the end of the age, so it means this age. The millenium peace is another age, where the devil the sower is chained for a thousand years, so if God resurects these tares and blesses them to become wheat, to grow into wheat as they mature, without the devil to influence them for their father the devil no longer can sow lies into their souls and deceive them.

The lake of fire happens after the millenium, so could be refered to as the sixth age.

1st age Adam to Noah
2nd age Noah to Moses
3 age Moses- Israel covenant
4 age coming of Messiah
5th age The return of the messiah- The goodman returns after a long journey to destroy the tares and gather the wheat, then 1000 year peace of restoration, begining with Abraham Issac and Jacob
6 th age New Jerusalem - God is all in all and every enemy destroyed including death, if death is destroyed in the lake of fire after 1000 millenium peace

Revelation 20:14 
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

, why does God threaten people to cast them into the lake of fire? after this event occured

21And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea

A new heaven and new earth and no sea. During Rev 20:14, there was no earth and no heaven and people brought out of hell.

rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If this means everlasting destruction, then death has not been defeated, but if it means purification then it means they are not being destroyed, if they are being tormented forever, then it means Gods promises of everlasting mercy and his promise of his wrath shall not remain forever becomes void.
This is the greatest proof for me personally that people are not eternally destroyed, but it means reevaluating the hundreds of scriptures that talk about everlasting destruction.
:2c:

[shawn]

wood, hay, stubble - in us?  And if I'm "one who is doing evil", then I need to be tossed into that fire so that can be [spiritually] burned out of me?  

Is God the ultimate fire, His direct Presence?  "Our God is a Consuming Fire".

Things I personally wonder.

I think that is one way to look at that passage.  I try to look at these scriptures through the lens of UR.  There is no doubt that the Bible speaks about refining fire.  But, there also appear to be references to refuge, waste, weeds being thrown into a fire.  In this particular passage it notes people...not personality traits, works, evil doings, evil thinking but the sons of the devil.  Is it possible that this is a refining fire...yes.  But, I do find it odd symbolic language to use weeds as a comparison to the sons of the devil.  A weed can not be made alive again...nor ever have any other use except for feeding a fire...then being consummed.

[shawn]

I think fire has more than one symbolic reference in the Bible.  Yeast has some symbolism of evil in scripture but it's also used to symbolize growth.  In Matthew 13 I'm not sure I can see a cleansing, purifying fire in this passage.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

----------------------

Weeds would be an odd reference for symbolizing a refinement fire.  You don't throw weeds into the fire in order for it to come out wheat.  You throw weeds into the fire for it to be destroyed.

This says the end of the age, so it means this age. The millenium peace is another age, where the devil the sower is chained for a thousand years, so if God resurects these tares and blesses them to become wheat, to grow into wheat as they mature, without the devil to influence them for their father the devil no longer can sow lies into their souls and deceive them.

The lake of fire happens after the millenium, so could be refered to as the sixth age.

1st age Adam to Noah
2nd age Noah to Moses
3 age Moses- Israel covenant
4 age coming of Messiah
5th age The return of the messiah- The goodman returns after a long journey to destroy the tares and gather the wheat, then 1000 year peace of restoration, begining with Abraham Issac and Jacob
6 th age New Jerusalem - God is all in all and every enemy destroyed including death, if death is destroyed in the lake of fire after 1000 millenium peace, why does God threaten people to cast them into the lake of fire? If this means everlasting destruction, then death has not been defeated, but if it means purification then it means they are not being destroyed, if they are being tormented forever, then it means Gods promises of everlasting mercy and his promise of his wrath shall not remain forever becomes void.
This is the greatest proof for me personally that people are not eternally destroyed, but it means reevaluating the hundreds of scriptures that talk about everlasting destruction.
:2c:

You and I see this topic very differently.  I can see how death can be defeated and still people have died.  Death no longer has power to kill.  I believe we already debated this in another thread.

[jabcat]

Noting TT's post, I could also consider the end of the age to mean the destruction and judgment of 70 AD - the official end of temple worship, ongoing sacrifice, etc.  I believe Jesus' earthly ministry was primarily to the Jewish nation and their religious leaders - "I came not except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel".

Shawn, as far as this;  "In this particular passage it notes people...not personality traits, works, evil doings, evil thinking but the sons of the devil."  That's why I say if it were me as a son of the devil, I could be thrown in, so that things could be taken out, and I'd be transformed.   But really, I also personally think the process is tied into bringing a person to repentance - turning from, and turning to...Him;  believing, confessing, thus cleansing/purifying.  If we can think of the fire as 'being in His direct Presence', under His conviction as never before in this life - rather than a literal fire - then I would think yes, it would be the person standing before Him (thrown into the fire).  

Through the Holy Spirit, we are certainly brought into His (fiery) presence in this life to be disciplined as sons and children. Just a thought, and it helps me to write them out.  James.

[willieH]

I think fire has more than one symbolic reference in the Bible.  Yeast has some symbolism of evil in scripture but it's also used to symbolize growth.  In Matthew 13 I'm not sure I can see a cleansing, purifying fire in this passage.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

----------------------

Weeds would be an odd reference for symbolizing a refinement fire.  You don't throw weeds into the fire in order for it to come out wheat.  You throw weeds into the fire for it to be destroyed.

This says the end of the age, so it means this age. The millenium peace is another age, where the devil the sower is chained for a thousand years, so if God resurects these tares and blesses them to become wheat, to grow into wheat as they mature, without the devil to influence them for their father the devil no longer can sow lies into their souls and deceive them.

The lake of fire happens after the millenium, so could be refered to as the sixth age.

1st age Adam to Noah
2nd age Noah to Moses
3 age Moses- Israel covenant
4 age coming of Messiah
5th age The return of the messiah- The goodman returns after a long journey to destroy the tares and gather the wheat, then 1000 year peace of restoration, begining with Abraham Issac and Jacob
6 th age New Jerusalem - God is all in all and every enemy destroyed including death, if death is destroyed in the lake of fire after 1000 millenium peace

Revelation 20:14 
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

, why does God threaten people to cast them into the lake of fire? after this event occured

21And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea

A new heaven and new earth and no sea. During Rev 20:14, there was no earth and no heaven and people brought out of hell.

rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If this means everlasting destruction, then death has not been defeated, but if it means purification then it means they are not being destroyed, if they are being tormented forever, then it means Gods promises of everlasting mercy and his promise of his wrath shall not remain forever becomes void.
This is the greatest proof for me personally that people are not eternally destroyed, but it means reevaluating the hundreds of scriptures that talk about everlasting destruction.
:2c:

Biggest problem with the vision in the above is the chronology assigned to the work of GOD... who has no chronology, ...and which is WHY He is the END and the BEGINNING -- Rev 1:8 -- and which is why He noted the entirety of this realm from END to BEGINNING, ...NOT... beginning to end.

Also, to begin with, the "millennium" is an UNBIBLICAL term, as well as an inobservance of SYMBOLIC text, which is then alluded to as LITERAL. :mnah:

The term "lake of FIRE" is SYMBOLIC, and symbolizes the entirety of the experience of this realm, in which DEATH and the GRAVE (hades) were cast...

As well as the FIRE, ...in which CHRIST was tried -- Rev 3:18 -- and in which we are tried -- Mark 9:49 -- 1 Pet 1:7 -- 1 Pet 4:12

ALL things find themselves WITHIN God -- For He PERMEATES the Universe -- Psalm 139:8 -- Acts 17:28 -- and who IS (not "will be") a consuming FIRE -- Heb 12:29

...willieH  :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

ALL things find themselves WITHIN God -- For He PERMEATES the Universe -- Psalm 139:8 -- Acts 17:28 -- and who IS (not "will be") a consuming FIRE -- Heb 12:29

...willieH  :winkgrin:

:thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

I think fire has more than one symbolic reference in the Bible.  Yeast has some symbolism of evil in scripture but it's also used to symbolize growth.  In Matthew 13 I'm not sure I can see a cleansing, purifying fire in this passage.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

----------------------

Weeds would be an odd reference for symbolizing a refinement fire.  You don't throw weeds into the fire in order for it to come out wheat.  You throw weeds into the fire for it to be destroyed.

Difficult. Maybe the parable of wheat and chaff can be of some help. It's also about harvest. At first it may seem the parable is about 2 types of people. But in reality wheat and chaff is the same plant. And so the same people.
So maybe the field is not about mankind but just one person...?

[micah7:9]

wood, hay, stubble - in us?  And if I'm "one who is doing evil", then I need to be tossed into that fire so that can be [spiritually] burned out of me?  

Is God the ultimate fire, His direct Presence?  "Our God is a Consuming Fire".

Things I personally wonder.

I think that is one way to look at that passage.  I try to look at these scriptures through the lens of UR.  There is no doubt that the Bible speaks about refining fire.  But, there also appear to be references to refuge, waste, weeds being thrown into a fire.  In this particular passage it notes people...not personality traits, works, evil doings, evil thinking but the sons of the devil.  Is it possible that this is a refining fire...yes.  But, I do find it odd symbolic language to use weeds as a comparison to the sons of the devil.  A weed can not be made alive again...nor ever have any other use except for feeding a fire...then being consummed.

A weed cannot be made to live again UNTIL it is changed, and that is what fire does, it changes from what it was to what it will be. My  :2c:

[Lefein]

Those who are dead don't live, only the living are able to live.

Who is this God who can raise the dead and make them into the living?

Who is this God who can raise the weed and array it with flowering glory greater than Solomon's?

[Quaesitor]

Those who are dead don't live, only the living are able to live.

Who is this God who can raise the dead and make them into the living?

Who is this God who can raise the weed and array it with flowering glory greater than Solomon's?

Beautifull!
:Sparkletooth:

[eaglesway]

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1Co 3:12-15)


"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
(Joh 15:5-6)

[micah7:9]

Glory and Amen! :happygrin:

[eaglesway]

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1Co 3:12-15)


"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
(Joh 15:5-6)

Mat 3:10  "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire....... Mat 3:12  "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:40-42)

The axe and the winnowing fork, interesting stuff. Trees usually symbolize men or groups of men. "Trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord"... "He shall be like a tree, planted beside the streams of water"....the dunged tree of parable.

I think the axe laid to the roots of the trees is the same as "not one stone shall be left standing upon another". The buildings of man compare to fruitless trees. God comes for fruit but finds none as the landowner sends a servant to receive interest and the servant is beaten.

"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
(Mat 21:43-44)

....It will scatter him like dust......they are gathered and thrown into the fire........thoroughly purging the threshing floor.......if any man's work is burned up, he will lose his reward, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.....tormented day and night in the presence of the Lord to the age....Lake of fire.....outer darkness.......all these things are parables in a sense, insofar as we don't yet know what we will be, and we don't yet know what these disciplines and penalties will actually be-we see them through a glass darkly.

The weeds are "gathered out" before they are burned, I find this interesting- and there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth"- definitely unpleasantness as defined by our Lord, "better to have your arm cut off and enter maimed than be cast alive into Gehenna fire". For all those who desire this gospel to be all sweetness and light there is a stern warning not to be ignored. Yet, the end of all things is the reconciliation of all things through the blood of His cross- God being all in all.

  If the lake of fire is a unique manifestation of the wrath of God for the predatory wicked, perhaps there will be a unique manifestation of the discipline of God for those who have, "Once been enlightened and have partaken of the heavenly gift and the good word of God and the powers of the age to come". Perhaps another unique manifestation is already in place for the angels who left there proper estate and are held by aidios chains in darkness awaiting the tribunal of the great day. What if the spirits in prison unto whom Jesus declared the victorious good news when He descended were set free with "time served" and led gloriously captive in His train into the heavens. Maybe there is one fire and all are in in it always until all the adversaries are consumed. I have my doubts about anyone who makes confident assertions about these things that are by nature "olam"........ beyond the horizon, unseen. What I rejoice in is that we can be sure that all discipline is for the edification of the one disciplined and all that is destroyed is destroyed in the transformation of what is "being made new".

(2Pe 3:7-13)

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Everyone will be salted with fire, nothing is hidden that will not be brought to light

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

An administration of the completion of the times, the gathering into one of all things in Christ, till God becomes all in all

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,

Perhaps at death, the thief steals all that we are holding onto in the night? Maybe everyone who "sleeps" in the dark awakens at the Day  

and the elements (stoichion- rudiments, elementary principles)shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Everyman's work will be tested by fire for the Day shall reveal it.... on the Day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ, their conscience either accusing or excusing them.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved

the night is passing, the Day is dawning),

what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

walk as children of the Day

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

No one knows the day or the hour of the TRANSFORMATION....a day without morning or evening....a moment, a twinkling of an eye


Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW
                                                         BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW

[thinktank]

rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


I have found this interesting for a while now, that this passage mentions that they shall have their part in the lake of fire.

a portion or division of a whole that is separate or distinct; piece, fragment, fraction, or section; constituent: the rear part of the house; to glue the two parts together.


A part is not the whole, so to me it means that only the persons spirit partakes in the lake of fire, which means it won't be a physical torture type burning, but something else that cannot be comprehended.

So when I combine the passages in (1Co 3:12-15 what I see is that wicked men, their souls on the earth being pictured as tares and all their possesions, gold, silver etc will be destroyed, cut off from the earth, the wicked shall be no more, but their spirit ( A Part of the whole)  will be saved yet through fire i.e the lake of fire.