The two witnesses are: Israel and the church

[micah7:9]

...went to the site where Fairbairn's Prophecy is located.  Interpretation is one thing, but to say Scripture was altered and needs to be restored is another.  Nevertheless, there are some wonderful books and info at this site to pick over.  Interesting, the idea that "the cleansing of the heavens" of Daniel 8 refers to the commencement of the scientific revolution in the 1750s.  Too bad, due to time and space, it's not so easy to share seeking in the Word together.

:thumbsup:

[Doug]

:cloud9: Lots of good points you make here, Doug....thanks  :thumbsup:

Thanks, Cardinal.

Doug


Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

In the prophecy about the two witnesses, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit is Satan.

Revelation 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

How is it, that the beast is described as ascending from the bottomless pit? That implies he must have already been put in there. But it is not where he prefers to be. Isaiah described Lucifer, who many think refers to Satan, as aspiring to ascend into heaven.

Isaiah 14:12-13
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

The "sides of the north" refers to the temple of God, and Zion, in the Psalms.

Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

"The city of the great King" refers to the heavenly Jerusalem, the church. Jesus quoted this phrase in Matthew 5:35. Satan seeks to exult himself above the stars, who are the saints in Daniel 12:3, & in Revelation 12:4.

In Revelation 12, both the dragon, and woman, are in heaven. The dragon is identified as Satan in vs. 9. But Paul described the adversary as restrained, in 2 Thessalonians 2:6; "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time." Another version has:

2 Thessalonians 2:6 Weymouth New Testament
And now you know what restrains him, in order that his true character may be revealed at his appointed time.

This refers to Satan as restrained. Jesus said that he saw the devil "fall from heaven." The kingdom of Satan was subject to the disciples.

Luke 10:17-18
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Satan is the "strong man" who was bound, in the parable of Jesus. [Mark 3:27]

Jesus said to his disciples, what you bind on earth, is bound in heaven. And what you loose on earth, is loosed in heaven. [Matthew 18:18]

Does this apply to the apostles only? Or did also apply to their successors? And does it imply that Satan was let loose from his prison by the church?

In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is bound with a great chain, and cast into a bottomless pit, for a thousand years. This refers not to events far off in the future, as the dispensationalists say, but the binding of Satan in the lifetime of John. Many of the events described in Revelation were "things which must shortly come to pass," [Revelation 1:1]; in Revelation 22:7, & 12, Jesus says, "Behold, I come quickly." And he is yet to come, in chapter 16.

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Satan is described as ascending from the bottomless pit in Revelation 11:7, so he must have already been put in there. He was bound by Jesus. In other scriptures, the angels who sinned were chained by chains of darkness. [2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6] Peter said Jesus "preached unto the spirits in prison." [1 Peter 3:19]

After the apostolic age, Satan ascends from his bottomless pit, and makes war against the two witnesses. [Revelation 11:7] It is called a prison in Revelation 20:7. His ascent from the bottomless pit is connected with the whore who rides upon the scarlet colored beast, having the names of blasphemy, and 7 heads and 10 horns, in Revelation 17:8. His ascent from the bottomless pit has to do with the growth of false religion, represented by the whore, and his influence upon the saints.

The ascent of Satan from the bottomless pit is parallel to Daniel's prophecy of the rise of the little horn of the fourth beast in Daniel 7, which makes war with, and dominates the saints during the "time, times and a half."

This is described by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, where the "man of sin" establishes himself in the temple of God, which is the church. He is the "strong man" in the parable of Jesus.

There is a connection between these scriptures and the parable of the tares, which were sown among the wheat, and allowed to remain till the time of the harvest at the end of the world, when they are bound up in bundles, and burned.

In Revelation 12, Satan is in heaven, showing he has ascended up out of the bottomless pit, into heaven, but his presence there is disputed, and it is what the war is all about.

In Revelation 20:8-9, he deceives the nations of the earth, so they invade the camp of the saints.

The two witnesses in Revelation 11:7 are overcome and slain. In Revelation 12:4, a third of the stars are cast to the earth. They are the ones who follow the tail of the dragon; a "tail" represents false prophets, Isaiah 9:15.

Eventually, Satan is cast out of heaven as a result of a great spiritual war. He is called "the accuser of our brethren." [Revelation 12:9] Then, he begins to persecute the woman, who is given two wings of a great eagle, which I suggest, represent a good understanding of prophecy.

Doug


Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

John's prophecy describes the two witnesses at war with the beast, and they are killed, and their bodies lie in the street, and then the people of the world make merry over their demise.

No doubt, the proliferation of interpretations and the general misunderstanding of the prophecies of scripture contributes to disbelief.

Spanish Jesuit Luis Alcazar (1554-1613) was the author of 'Veteris Testamenti partes quas respicit Apocalypsis' (Old Testament references regarding the Apocalypse) (1631) which argued for a preterist interpretation of some of the prophecies of Revelation. It was soon read by Dutch Arminian and humanist Hugo Grotius (1583-1645), who tried to establish common ground between Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church by publishing a similar work, entitled 'Commentary on Certain Texts Which Deal with Antichrist' (1640), in which he attempted to argue that the texts relating to Antichrist had their fulfillment in the 1st century AD.
   
In 'Commentaries On The New Testament' (1641-1650), he expanded his Preterist views to include the Olivet prophecy and Revelation. F. F. Bruce wrote of him:

Grotius broke with the Reformed tradition of identifying the Papacy with Antichrist. Grotius's Annotationes in Novum Testamentum (1641ff.) carried on the philological and historical method of Flacius Illyricus and Camerarius, and did so more rigorously and in greater detail. So objective was his treatment of the text, in fact, that he was charged with rationalism. He saw that the individual books of the New Testament could best be understood in their respective historical contexts, even if he was not always successful in his attempts to identify those contexts. Thus he saw in 2 Thess. 2:1-12 a reference to Emperor Gaius's attempt to have his statue set up in the Jerusalem temple, and accordingly dated the epistle c. A.D. 40, making it the earliest of the Pauline writings. He inferred from 2 Pet. 3:3f. that that epistle was written after A.D. 70 and therefore not by Peter the apostle; he treated the name "Peter" in the initial salutation as a later addition to the text and conjectured that the author was Simeon, bishop of Jerusalem, who was traditionally martyred under Trajan.

[F. F. Bruce, "The History of New Testament Study," I. Howard Marshall, ed., New Testament Interpretation: Essays on Principles and Methods, 1977. Carlisle: The Paternoster Press, revised 1979. pp.21-59.]

Hugo Grotius identified "that Wicked" of 2 Thessalonians 2:8 with Simon Magus.

His disciple in England was Henry Hammond (1605-1660), who identified the Antichrist of 2 Thess. 2:3, 9 and 1 John 2:18 with Simon Magus; "The beast" of Rev. 13 was identified by Hammond with "heathen worship" of Rome.

Henry More (1614-1687) of Cambridge University objected to the ideas of Grotius on the grounds that if Grotius were right, and if in consequence the Book of Revelation did not cover the whole development of human history, then it would be "utterly Useless."
   
[Johannes Van Den Berg, Grotius and Apocalyptic thought in England, in: Hugo Grotius, theologian: essays in honour of G.H.M. Posthumus Meyjes, Ed. by Guillaume Henri Marie Posthumus Meyjes, Henk J. M. Nellen, Edwin Rabbie. Brill, 1994. p. 178.]

IMO, to say that the book of Revelation had become "utterly useless" for enlightening the church, is quite similar to John's metaphor of the two witnesses being killed, and their corpses lying in the street. Thus, the rise of preterism, since the time of Henry More, can be identified as one of the ways the beast has killed the witness of Bible prophecy to the church; and similar things can be said of dispensationalism. An alternative to these two categories of interpretation, which are popular today, is briefly sketched in a 3 page pdf article at the link below.

Doug

The middle way.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Exactly....if Revelation was about 70AD it should be in a "history" section, and of no special interest to the church at large 2000+ years later....Blessings....

[micah7:9]

 :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

I don't think you will ever come across a believer who will say that they have cornered the market on all the ways and Word of God.  And yet, the same number will become aggressive when there's a difference of vision or direction on any given subject.  Implying that even though their minds don't see them as the authority of spiritual things, their actions tell a different story.

I would ask that you could leave at least a small portion of your heart open to the idea that perhaps the things we "think" are certain can still be incomplete.  So that those of us who do think that books like Revelation and portions of Daniel have already transpired in this natural realm but not fully manifested on other levels.  I do still see explanations of who the two witnesses were and when they were left out in the open for all the world to scoff at them . . .I still believe they are the two witnesses who manifest God above all others in the fashion of Christ and the Holy Ghost.

I beleive when Christ entered the ministry at 30, he died in the streets and for the following three and a half years of his ministry, he was trampled, shamed, beaten, until the Day his Father called him to "come up here" and he left the tomb.  I still think these things fit in times before us and we are in another age where waiting for those natural events to still unfold before our eyes isn't as necessary as most still think.

[Doug]

John introduces his prophecy of the two witnesses with:

Revelation 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod...

A reed is evidently both a tool for measurement, and a unit of length.

Revelation 21:15
And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

See also several references to a reed, as a unit of length in Ezekiel 40, and 42.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible declares that the reed used by Greeks and Romans was 10 feet in length.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible says:

A reed - ... kalamos. This word properly denotes a plant with a jointed hollow stalk, growing in wet grounds. Then it refers to the stalk as cut for use - as a measuring-stick, as in this place; or a mock scepter, Matthew 27:29-30; or a pen for writing, 3 John 1:13. Here it means merely a stick that could be used for measuring.

Like unto a rod - This word - ... rabdos - means properly a "rod, wand, staff," used either for scourging, 1 Corinthians 4:21; or for leaning upon in walking, Matthew 10:10; or for a scepter, Hebrews 1:8. Here the meaning is, that the reed that was put into his hands was like such a rod or staff in respect to size, and was therefore convenient for handling. The word "rod" also is used to denote a measuring-pole, Psalm 74:2; Jeremiah 10:16; Jeremiah 51:19.

In 1 Corinthians 4:21, Paul refers to a rod in the sense of discipline.

Paul wrote to Timothy that the scriptures are profitable for reproof and for correction.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The rod, and the staff of God were said to be a comfort to David. He knew what it was like to be disciplined.

Psalm 23:4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

In the Old Testament, the book of Proverbs refers to "the rod of correction."

Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Thus the scriptures, and the Spirit of God, and John's prophecy about the two witnesses, are a "rod" by which the saints may be disciplined and corrected. And Jesus referred to the Spirit as the Comforter. To receive instruction from Christ is a comfort to the saints, as it was to David.

The rod is also compared with the whip, used to control the horse, and the bridle that is used to harness an ass.

Proverbs 26:3
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

But we are advised not to be like the horse, or the mule.

Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

Doug


Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

Dionysius of Alexandria, writing in the third century, disputed with some who said the author of the Apocalypse was someone other than John the disciple of Jesus. He pointed out some expressions and ideas in Revelation that also occur in John's Gospel and in his epistles, but nowhere else. The examples he cited are included in the table below, together with some others, with references added.

Jesus is The Lamb	John 1:29, 36; 21:15	Revelation 5:6, 8, 12, 13; 6:1, 16; 7:9, 10, 14, 17; 12:11; 13:8, 11; 14:1, 4, 10; 15:3; 17:4; 19:7, 9;  21:14, 22, 23, 27;  22:1, 3
Jesus is called The Word	John 1:1, 14; 1 John 1:1	Revelation 19:13
The scriptures bear witness to Jesus	John 5:39	Revelation 11:3
The Spirit bears witness to Jesus	John 10:25; 15:26; 1 John 5:6	Revelation 11:3
Jesus bears witness to the truth	John 3:11, 32, 33; 18:37	Revelation 1:2, 5; 19:10; 20:4
They that keep his commandments	1 John 2:3; 2:4; 3:22, 24; 5:2, 3;  2 John 1:6	Revelation 12:17; 14:12; 22:14
He that loveth his life shall lose it	John 12:25	Revelation 12:11
The world deceived	2 John 1:7	Revelation 12:9
He that overcometh	1 John 5:4, 5	Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21; 21:7
Those who do not abide in Christ are cast into a fire	John 15:6	Revelation 11:5; 20:15; 21:8
Judgment of the world	John 5:22, 27; 9:39; 12:31; 16:8, 11; 1 John 4:17	Revelation 14:7; 16:7; 18:10
They that pierced him shall see him	John 19:34, 37	Revelation 1:7
Eating flesh, drinking blood	John 6:53-56	Revelation 16:6; 17:16; 19:18
Jesus gives the hidden manna	John 6:51, 58	Revelation 2:17
As I received of my Father	John 10:18;  2 John 1:4	Revelation 2:27
Jesus is the temple	John 2:21	Revelation 21:22
The love of God	John 3:16; 1 John 4:9; 5:3	Revelation 1:5
The water of life	John 4:14, 15	Revelation 21:6; 22:1, 17

Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks for your imput Doug.....you bring some interesting things to the table...... :thumbsup:

[Doug]

There is a great variety in the ways in which the beast makes war with the two witnesses of God, the subject of the prophecy of Revelation 11:1-13.

We have already noticed the doctrine of preterism, which was promoted by Jesuit priest Luis Alcazar (1554-1613), and Hugo Grotius (1583-1645), both of whom wished to remove the sting from the interpretations of the Protestant Reformers, who identified the papacy with the Antichrist. They claimed that the prophecies of Revelation were mostly fulfilled in the first century, and depicted the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.

In the Historicist view, the 1,260 days mentioned in Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 were equated with 1,260 years, which were thought to correspond in some way with the time during which the papacy was dominant in Europe. Numerous theories were advanced about what date and event to use for the start date, and even about whether the years were solar, or should they instead be taken as "prophetic" 360 day years? Another idea was that the 1,260 years might be the period during which the Jews were to remain scattered, and at the end of it, they would be settled in their own land, and convert to the Christian faith.
   
An example of the Historicist approach is the work of Johann Albrecht Bengel (1687-1752). A German Lutheran theologian and scholar, Bengel developed Heilsgeschichte, a theology of salvation history. The table below is from:

Bengelius's introduction to his exposition of the Apocalypse: with his preface to that work and the greatest part of the conclusion of it, and also his marginal notes on the text, which are a summary of the whole exposition
Johann Albrecht Bengel
Translated by John Robertson, 1757
Link

AD 1058, Sept. 2nd Wed.	The two wings of the great Eagle given to the Woman.
AD 1077, Sept. 1st Frid.	The rising of the beast out of the sea, in the person of Gregory VII.
AD 1143, Sept. 25, Sat.	The beginning of the 42 months of the power of the beast, in Celestine II.
AD 1810, May 21, Sat. (June 1, N. S.)	The end of the 42 months, and of the number of the beast. Soon after, when the vials are poured out, the beast is not, but Babylon reigns as Queen.
AD 1832, Oct. 14, Mon.	The rising of the beast out of the Abyss. After one hour, viz,
AD 1832, Oct.22, Tuesd.	The 10 kings give their royal power to the beast.
AD 1836, June 18, Sund.	The destruction of the beast. The end of the 3 1/2 times, &c.

In Bengel's scheme, a prophetic day was 1/2 year and about 8 days, or 190 + 20/21 days; a prophetic year was 190 + 20/21 natural years or 69570 days.

Commenting upon the failure of Bengel's predictions, Charles H. Spurgeon said:

This great author was rather too precise in his dates. The end of the forty-two months was settled for the 21st of May, 1810, and the destruction of the beast for June 18th, 1836. When so princely an expositor maunders in this fashion it should act as a caution to less able men.

[Commenting a Commentaries p. 260. By Charles H. Spurgeon]
http://books.google.com/books?id=NOKOcvZBP9QC

Bengel's work influenced John Wesley of his own century.

Failed attempts at interpretation of prophecy, including Bengel's date-setting fiasco, tend to discredit the entire subject of Bible prophecy, and so are among the ways the Beast has waged war against the two witnesses, and killed them.

Another failed approach to interpretation of the prophecy is one which fails to interpret what is symbolic, or wrongly interprets. The prophecy of the two witnesses must be interpreted, as they are identified with:

• Two trees
• Two candlesticks
• Two human prophets

Why should any of the above be literal, while the other two are symbolic? If the trees are symbolic, surely so are the candlesticks and the prophets; and likewise, if any of the above is symbolic, so are the other two. 

The paragraph below is an example of the flawed interpretation of the prophecy of the two witnesses, by an ultradispensationalist, who identifies them as two humans with supernatual powers.

How thankful we should be that the evangel committed to us is in utmost contrast to the testimony of the two witnesses! They call down physical judgments. We invoke spiritual blessings. They spread havoc and death. We dispense grace and life. They faithfully represent an indignant God, in the fury of His wrath. We are ambassadors of peace, heralding the amazing marvel of a suppliant God, Who refuses to be offended, Who is conciliated to all mankind, and Who prays all to be conciliated to Him. The still small voice of a praying God is a far greater marvel than the thunders of His wrath.

A. E. Knoch
Copyright © Concordant Publishing Concern

Knoch's approach, IMO, is a fine example of how the "waters" are turned to "blood" by the two witnesses; what is really a wonderful prophecy of the role of the Spirit of Christ and the scriptures, is seen by him as depicting "an indignant God," and so his approach blinds him to the "water" of life, and the "hidden manna" contained in that prophecy.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

Below are two paragraphs from a book by Joseph Galloway, published in 1809, in which he suggests that the two witnesses of Revelation 11 represent the Old and New Testaments. The book is:

Brief commentaries upon such parts of the Revelation and other prophecies as immediately refer to the present times: With the prophetic, or, anticipated history of the church of Rome. To which is added A pill for the infidel and athiest

by Joseph Galloway
London, 1809

Link

p. 56

Where then shall we find in the world the "two witnesses" here introduced by the angel? For they must be of great antiquity; they must be only two in number, and these two must have but one "mouth," and be the witnesses of God, or of his revealed word and will to mankind. They are, I will venture to pronounce, and can be nothing else, but the Two Testaments, the Old and New. These, two holy prophets and oracles of God, alone, among all the variety of things upon the earth, can satisfy and fulfil the figurative description of the text. The angel speaks of them as in being at the time, and well known to the prophet; and why they have not been so to the commentators on the prophecies, is difficult to conceive, as they must have had them constantly in view. Indeed the very name of these books, or witnesses, affords an unerring clue to the discovery. A testament, from the plain definition and common acceptation of the word, is a writing, or record, which testifies and bears witness to the mind and will of man. So that which reveals, and bears witness to the word and will of God, is certainly his witness: and it is worthy of observation, that they are called, by the voice of truth, coming from God, "my two witnesses." It may next be asked, what two witnesses has God been graciously pleased, in the course of his providence, to send into this fallen world, to reveal and attest to mankind his divine word, but the Old and New Testament? Is it not by these two sacred and infallible records, one of which is, by many ages, the most ancient in the world? a record, a part of which has, in a most miraculous manner, during the course of 3400 years, been preserved amidst the waste of all-devouring time, the ravages of wars, the wrecks of books, and even during the dark ages of Pagan sensuality, of Mohamedan ignorance, and Papal superstition. I ask, is it not by these two holy records alone, that God has been pleased to reveal and attest his righteous and immaculate will to mankind? Have not these "two witnesses" alone given the clearest testimony of his omnipotence, his infinite wisdom, his justice and mercy? And have not all those divine and exalted attributes of his glory and perfection, been demonstrated by innumerable events foretold and recorded by those two sacred "witnesses," even during the Mohamedan and Papal apostacy and darkness?

But had the names of these "two witnesses" been more mysterious, there are other marks given by the angel, which clearly support this exposition of the text: they are represented, by the angel, as having "one mouth;" to denote that they both, where rightly understood, testify the same sacred truths. And we know that the two Testaments, in this sense, have but one mouth; that is, form one regular, consistent, uniform history of the will and providence of God: and when not perverted, agree in attesting to mankind the same great and important truths, in which their happiness here, as well as hereafter, is concerned. These "two witnesses" were, moreover, to continue to "prophesy in sackcloth" 1260 years, during the persecutions and depressions of the Gospel of Christ, by the Gentiles of "the court which is without the temple;" and there have been no two men who have lived so long; nor any true prophets since John wrote his Revelation, except those two sacred and living oracles, which have and do yet foretel all the important truths needful for mankind to know, that have happened in the world, and shall happen to the end of it; and therefore have rendered all other prophets, and every other kind of holy witness, unnecessary.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Nathan]

It doesn't fit.

Revelation 11
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. (I think Noah's ark is actually showing a connection to this . . .but I'll hit on that one later.) They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.

Due to my current time restraint, I'll make this short . . .for me . . .
The gentile's trampling for 42 months . . .there a geneology in the New Testament . . .it lists 42 generations leading up to the coming of Jesus.  Verse 3 fits Jesus nature to a "t".  Verse 4 also fits the son and the spirit continually present at the throne of the Father.  Verse 5 . . .does not revelation speak clearly to the fact that a fiery sword protrudes out of the mouth of Jesus as he overcomes all the armies that have risen up against his people? 

And when we get to the point to where the voice calls out "come up here" and they "resurrect" and "ascend" to the Father . . .how can we not see that this is referring to Christ?  It fits "every" piece of this.

[Doug]

Below is a table showing some of the many interpretations that have been proposed for the 1,260 days, the time of the ministry of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3, and when the woman flees to the wilderness in Revelation 12:6.

	Proposed dates for the 1,260 days	Interpretation
Joachim of Fiore (1130-1202)	1 BC - 1260 AD	The period between the advent of Christ and 1260 AD
Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino in 1250 AD	1 BC - 1260 AD	Gerardo published a work called the Introduction to the Eternal Gospel, which was an interpretation and summary of Joachim's three major works. Gerardo's Introduction claimed that the third status would arrive in A.D. 1260, signaling the total abrogation of the church of the second status, including the substitution of Joachim's writing for the Old and New Testaments. Gerardo's work created such a scandal that a papal commission was held at Anagni under Alexander IV in A.D. 1255, which condemned the Introduction, but not Joachim himself. Gerardo was imprisoned for life.
St. Clement of Alexandria (c.150- 215)		The period of the destruction of Jerusalem
Walter Brute in 1391	135 AD - 1395 AD	Brute said the 1,260 and 1,290 days of prophecy were so many years, to be reckoned from the Hadrian desolation of Jerusalem to his own day
David Chytreus in 1571	412 AD - 1672 AD	Chytreus suggested the 1,260 years began with the overthrow of the Western Roman Empire by Alaric in 412
David Pareus (1548-1622)	606 AD - 1866 AD	Pareus claimed the 1,260 years began with the decree of Phocas in 606.
Joseph Mede (1586-1638)	476 AD - 1736 AD	Mede equated seven time prophecies which contained time spans of 3 1/2 years, 1260 days, or 42 months (Dan.7:25; 12:7; Rev.11:2,3; 12:6,14; 13:5). These, he explained must apply to the antichristian power of papacy.
Drue Cressener (1642-1718)	606 AD - 1848 AD	An English clergyman and interpreter of the Apocalypse, Cressener in 1690 said the years of the period should be taken as 360 days each, and shortened the period of 1,260 days to 1,242. Thus he proposed 1848 as the critical year in the downfall of the papacy.
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)		Newton proposed 360 days for each prophetic year and 30 days to a prophetic month. Thus, unlike Mede, he disassociated prophetic time from solar or lunar calendars;  "he specified the time vaguely, at about the time of the invasion of the Barbarous nations and their erecting several Kingdoms in the Roman Empire," and "it being certain that 1200 of the 1260 years are run out already."
Johan Albrecht Bengel (1687-1752)	1143 AD - 1810 AD	In Bengel's scheme, a prophetic day was 1/2 year and about 8 days, or 190 + 20/21 days; a prophetic year was 190 + 20/21 natural years or 69570 days.
John Gill (1697-1771)	606 AD - 1866 AD	Gill maintained that the date when the Bishop of Rome was made Universal Bishop, or Pope, should be considered that of the decree of the Emperor Phocas in 606; "if to this we add 1,260 the expiration of his reign will fall in the year 1866, so that he may have upwards of a hundred and twenty years yet to continue; but of this we cannot be certain; however, the conjecture is not improbable."
Bishop Thomas Newton (1704-1782)	533 AD - 1793 AD; 606 AD - 1866 AD; 727 AD - 1987 AD	For the 1260 day/year period Newton suggested at least three starting points. The earliest is with Justinian's degree (533 AD), the second Phocas' degree in 606 (this had the additional benefit of being also the beginning of Mohammed's rise to power), and the third the early 8th century when the pope was established as a "temporal prince."
Joseph Galloway, 1809	606 AD - 1866 AD	Galloway wrote: If, then, we date the rise of the two apostacies in the year 606, which has just been proved to be the true time, the witnesses have now prophesied in 'sackcloth' 1195 years of the 1260 so that there are only 65 years to come, before they will have 'finished their testimony,' according to our present mode of calculation. But if the prophet calculated by synchronical years, or only 360 days to a year, according to the Jewish mode of computation, when he wrote, as some commentators suppose, and which indeed, is most probable, there remain only 48 years before the witnesses shall have finished their testimony in sackcloth.
George Stanley Faber (1773-1854)	606 AD - 1866 AD	Faber wrote: Some have supposed, that the 1260 years are already expired, and that their expiration took place about the commencement of the French revolution. As yet I have seen no sufficient reasons to induce me to assent to this opinion. According to the most natural interpretation of Dan. xii. 6, 7, the interpretation adopted by Mr. Mede and other eminent expositors, the interpretation which best harmonizes with parallel prophecies, the Jews will begin to be restored so soon as the three times and a half shall have expired. But the Jews have not begun to be restored. Therefore we scarcely seem warranted in supposing that the three times and a half have expired. However this may be, I have little doubt that the wonderful shaking of nations during these last eighteen years is preparatory to the return and conversion of God's chosen people, and to the final overthrow of his congregated enemies.
William Miller (1782-1849)	538 AD - 1798 AD	Miller claimed that the one thousand two hundred and sixty years of the papacy were to be reckoned from A. D. 538, by virtue of the decree of Justinian. This decree, though issued A. D. 533, did not go into full effect until 538, when the enemies of the Catholics in Rome were subjugated by Belisarius, a general of Justinian. Miller adopted the Protestant view, that they represent years. There is probably no point respecting which Protestant commentators have been more agreed than this. Faber, Prideaux, Mede, Clarke, Scott, the two Newtons, Wesley, and almost every expositor of note, have considered this a settled question. Indeed, so universal has been this interpretation of these periods that Professor Stuart says: 'IT IS A SINGULAR FACT THAT THE GREAT MASS OF INTERPRETERS in the English and American world have, for many years, been wont to understand the days designated in Daniel and the Apocalypse as the representatives or symbols of years. I found it difficult to trace the origin of this GENERAL, I might say ALMOST UNIVERSAL, CUSTOM.'
Edward Irving (1792-1834)	533 AD - 1793 AD	"Irving was the first expositor who ventured to connect particular predictions with the events of the French Revolution. According to him, the Papacy commenced in A.D. 533, which, with the 1260 prophetic days or years of its continuance, brings Popery down to the year 1793, the year when the French Revolution commenced, at which date Mr. Irving considers the reign of Popery to have been superseded by that of Infidelity, and the judgments upon Babylon to have commenced."
James Stuart Russell (1816-1895)	67 AD - 70 AD	Russell has been called the father of full preterism; he saw the second coming as a past event that took place in conjunction with the Roman destruction of the Jewish temple in AD 70. The following is from Russell's "The Parousia:"   The passage which we are now considering throws light also upon our Lord's prediction in Luke xxi. 24: 'And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.' Our Lord, it is to be observed, is here speaking of the siege and capture of Jerusalem, the very theme of the apocalyptic vision. ... But if so, what are we to understand by 'the times of the Gentiles' in our Saviour's prediction? It has been generally supposed that this expression refers to some mystic period of unknown duration, extending, it may be, over centuries and aeons, and still rolling on its uncompleted course. But if this non-natural interpretation of words is to be applied to Scripture, it is difficult to see what use there is in specifying any periods of time at all. Surely, it is much more respectful to the Word of God to understand its language as having some definite meaning. What, then, if 'forty and two months' should really mean forty-two months, and nothing more? The times of the Gentiles can only mean the time during which Jerusalem is in their occupation. That time is distinctly specified in the Apocalypse as forty-two months. Now this is a period repeatedly spoken of in this book under different designations. It is the 'thousand two hundred and sixty days' of the next verse, and the 'time, times and half a time' of chap. xii. 14, that is to say, three years and a half. Now it is evident that such a space of time in the history of nations would be an insignificant point; but for a tumultuous and lawless rabble to domineer over a great city for such a period would be something portentous and terrible. The occupation of such a city by an armed mob is not likely to continue over ages and centuries: it is an abnormal state of things which must speedily terminate. Now this is exactly what happened in the last days of Jerusalem. During the three years and an half which represent with sufficient accuracy the duration of the Jewish war, Jerusalem was actually in the hands and under the feet of a horde of ruffians, whom their own countryman describes as 'slaves, and the very dregs of society, the spurious and polluted spawn of the nation.' The last fatal struggle may be said to have begun when Vespasian was sent by Nero, at the head of sixty thousand men, to put down the rebellion. This was early in the year A.D. 67, and in August A.D.70 the city and the temple were a heap of smoking ashes.
Joseph Franklin ("Judge") Rutherford (1856-1942)	1914 AD - 1918 AD	Rutherford said the "three and a half times" is the 1,260 day period that began in 1914, and ended in mid-1918, when the Watch Tower Society's preaching work was suspended. This was immediately followed by the 1,290 days, which ran to 1922. The 1,335 day period (1922-1926) then ensued--the period of the celebrated conventions.
James Burton Coffman (1905-2006)		Coffman identified the "time, times and a half" with "the whole Christian dispensation" in his commentary on Daniel.
Ronald Weinland	2008 AD - 2012 AD	Weinland said the 1,260 days began in 2008, when he declared himself to be one of the two witnesses, and his wife Laura the other one.

Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

It doesn't fit.

Revelation 11
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. (I think Noah's ark is actually showing a connection to this . . .but I'll hit on that one later.) They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.

Due to my current time restraint, I'll make this short . . .for me . . .
The gentile's trampling for 42 months . . .there a geneology in the New Testament . . .it lists 42 generations leading up to the coming of Jesus.  Verse 3 fits Jesus nature to a "t".  Verse 4 also fits the son and the spirit continually present at the throne of the Father.  Verse 5 . . .does not revelation speak clearly to the fact that a fiery sword protrudes out of the mouth of Jesus as he overcomes all the armies that have risen up against his people? 

And when we get to the point to where the voice calls out "come up here" and they "resurrect" and "ascend" to the Father . . .how can we not see that this is referring to Christ?  It fits "every" piece of this.

Note that the 1,260 days is the time when the woman flees to the wilderness, which period therefore corresponds to the ministry of the two witnesses. Most Christians have understood this woman to represent the church.

The 42 months is equivalent, and it represents the period in which the beast is in power, who makes war with the saints and overcomes them.

The woman flees to the wilderness after the man-child is taken up to heaven, and to God's throne, Revelation 12:6. So the 1,260 days is hardly the earthly ministry of Jesus. But, there is a connection with the ministry of Jesus, IMO; together, the three and a half years of the ministry of Jesus (perhaps including that of John the Baptist) plus the 1,260 days make a prophetic "week" or "seven times." Thus, together they fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, that Jesus will confirm the covenant with many for one week. The last half-week is symbolic of the entire age of the church, and is represented symbolically as a time, times and a half, 1,260 days, 42 months, etc. The covenant that Christ confirms refers to the New Covenant, and the gospel, which he confirms by sending his Spirit.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Nathan]

Except in Daniel, there's no 2000 year gap that takes place in the middle of the week.  It's continual.  And it comes to it's fulness three and a half years later in the book of Acts.  Remember, the 70 weeks were specifically geared toward the Jewish people.  But they rejected him  There was a defining moment when this was completed. 

The first martyr.  There's a reason why that's written the way that it was.  When Stephen was about to be stoned . . .there was a great nashing of teeth . .that's a term aimed at religious rage due to rejecting the light of truth.  But at that defining moment, Stephen saw Jesus "standing" next to the Father . .not sitting, but standing.  there is a passage that speaks about Jesus being seated at the right hand of the Father before this incident, but yet Stephen sees him "standing".  And then later on, Paul states that he is once again seated . . .I believe there's a reason Stephen saw him standing with others saw him seated.

I believe Jesus stood because the fulfillment of time set aside for the Jews had run it's course and Jesus was identifying that.  From that moment on, Scripture turns it's attention toward Paul's ministry to the Gentiles.

There's no break .. . the church put that there.  At least that's how I see it today.

[Doug]

Except in Daniel, there's no 2000 year gap that takes place in the middle of the week.  It's continual. 

Right. There are no gaps, the 70 weeks are continuous, as time has no gaps!

And it comes to it's fulness three and a half years later in the book of Acts. 

But, there's no mention of it. Daniel's prophecy is not mentioned at all.

Remember, the 70 weeks were specifically geared toward the Jewish people.  But they rejected him  There was a defining moment when this was completed. 

The apostle Peter tells us otherwise.

1 Peter 1:9-12
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

What prophet wrote about the "manner of time" of the fulfillment of God's purpose?

Here is a clue; where do you find the phrase "time, times and a half"? Might that expression have something to do with time?
   
Daniel's people are called the "saints." They are the ones whose names are "written in the book." [Daniel 12:1]

This must be the book where the names of the saints who are to be raised up in the resurrection are written. Clearly, the same book that Paul refers to in Philippians 4:3, and which is mentioned several times in Revelation. Jesus maintains it. [Revelation 3:5]

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Or was Paul referring to a different book, do you think?

The first martyr.  There's a reason why that's written the way that it was.  When Stephen was about to be stoned . . .there was a great nashing of teeth . .that's a term aimed at religious rage due to rejecting the light of truth.  But at that defining moment, Stephen saw Jesus "standing" next to the Father . .not sitting, but standing.  there is a passage that speaks about Jesus being seated at the right hand of the Father before this incident, but yet Stephen sees him "standing".  And then later on, Paul states that he is once again seated . . .I believe there's a reason Stephen saw him standing with others saw him seated.

It is probably recorded to show that Jesus will stand up, whenever one of his saints who is about to die as a martyr. It's not likely He would remain seated in moments like that!

The reason we know there is no gap in the 70 weeks, is because nothing in the New Testament indicates that there is such a gap. It would need to be revealed, as according to Amos, God would not have done it, without revealing it to his prophets.

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
   
And the same thing applies to the idea that the 70 weeks ended in the first century, as alleged by the preterists. For such a thing to occur, without the apostles noticing, is IMO unbelievable.

I believe Jesus stood because the fulfillment of time set aside for the Jews had run it's course and Jesus was identifying that.  From that moment on, Scripture turns it's attention toward Paul's ministry to the Gentiles.

There's no break .. . the church put that there.  At least that's how I see it today.

Paul's ministry was among Jews at first. His missionary work among the Gentiles began several years later. Acts 11:28 tells about a period of famine, which must have occurred later than 41 AD.

Tiberius Claudius was Roman Emperor from 41 to 54 AD.

Paul was sent out two chapters later, Acts 13:2-3. They continued to go to the Jews first. 

You are right about there being no gap; I agree 100%.  :Sparkletooth:

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Nathan]

Well, that's about the "only" thing we're in agreement with then, most of what you've posted in all of this is another man's opinion that you have either adopted or accepted as "truth" which is your right, but I continue to reserve my right to see it otherwise.

[micah7:9]

Well, that's about the "only" thing we're in agreement with then, most of what you've posted in all of this is another man's opinion that you have either adopted or accepted as "truth" which is your right, but I continue to reserve my right to see it otherwise.

I must agree with you

[Doug]

Writing about the Gentiles who trample the holy city for 42 months, in Revelation 11:2, preterist James Stuart Russell said,

What, then, if 'forty and two months' should really mean forty-two months, and nothing more? The times of the Gentiles can only mean the time during which Jerusalem is in their occupation. That time is distinctly specified in the Apocalypse as forty-two months. Now this is a period repeatedly spoken of in this book under different designations. It is the 'thousand two hundred and sixty days' of the next verse, and the 'time, times and half a time' of chap. xii. 14, that is to say, three years and a half. Now it is evident that such a space of time in the history of nations would be an insignificant point; but for a tumultuous and lawless rabble to domineer over a great city for such a period would be something portentous and terrible. The occupation of such a city by an armed mob is not likely to continue over ages and centuries: it is an abnormal state of things which must speedily terminate.

[The Parousia]

Preterists such as Russell are evidently blind to the fact that the holy city, especially in Revelation, represents the church. They follow the doctrines of the German critics of the nineteenth century, most of whom were preterists; Johann Gottfried Eichorn, for example, denied that the Bible contains any predictive prophecy.

When John said 42 months, in Revelation 11:2, and 1,260 days in the next verse, it is obvious that the number of days in 42 real or lunar months is not 1,260, but about 1,240, so Russell's belief that the 42 months are literal, and equal to 1,260 days is flawed. And if he says the months are calendar months rather than lunar months, then 42 such months is about 1,278 days, not 1,260 days, so again, he is promoting error.

Russell failed to understand the significance of the 1,260 days, which is not meant literally, as John plainly showed by his use of 42 months together with the number of 1,260 days, which prove they are not "real" or literal months. The 1,260 days and 40 months and "time, times and a half" all represent the same symbolic period, the entire age of the church, and the last half week of the 70 weeks, and together with the period of Jesus' ministry these are a "week" in which Jesus confirms his covenant with his saints, and the gospel is preached in the world.

Like John, Daniel also provided two numbers, 1,290 days and 1,335 days, to represent the "time, times and a half," in Daniel 12:11 & 12, and there is no literal three and a half years that fits those numbers; therefore, they are symbolic. A literal three and a half years cannot have two or three different numbers of days, but a symbolic three and a half years can!

And so, Russell's idea was merely another in a long list of failed interpretations of prophecy that confirm the words of Daniel when he wrote, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." [Daniel 12:10]

IMO, the followers of Russell and their doctrines are among the "tumultuous and lawless rabble" of Gentiles who trample the holy city, which is the church, made desolate by false teachings such as "fool preterism." [They dislike the term "hyperpreterism," so I suggest as an alternative, "fool preterism;" they have made fools of many Christians who were looking for an alternative to dispensationalism.]

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Nathan]

I don't know about all of that but I do believe this is very much connected to with what Jabcat has been relaying lately in that there "is" a literal understanding and spiritual levels of understanding as well.  For me, the literal understanding is for those to whom it was literally written to . . .2000 years ago.  For the rest of us, I repeat 1 Corinthians 2 all over again . . .it's all spiritual that is "revealed" through the Father's voice in our heart rather than construed through the reasoning of our minds.

[micah7:9]

Aug. 5, 2010 re-reply.
Has anyone been given to believe that the two witness's could be Water and Blood?

1Jn 5:6  This one is he who did come through water and blood--Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,
1Jn 5:7  because three are who are testifying1Jn 5:8   the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.

Its just my  :2c:   again

[Doug]

I don't know about all of that but I do believe this is very much connected to with what Jabcat has been relaying lately in that there "is" a literal understanding and spiritual levels of understanding as well.  For me, the literal understanding is for those to whom it was literally written to . . .2000 years ago.  For the rest of us, I repeat 1 Corinthians 2 all over again . . .it's all spiritual that is "revealed" through the Father's voice in our heart rather than construed through the reasoning of our minds.

If a high school teacher were to ask a student to figure out how many days there are in three years and a half, and if the answer that was provided was 1,260, how could that answer possibly be correct?

Calculating by years, the answer is 1,278.

Using observations of the moon, and lunar months, the answer is 1,240 or 1,270.

Using a calendar, the answer is 1,278 or 1,279.

None is close to the 1,260 days that John gave, which of course, is one of the reasons he chose that number.

Literally, to say 42 months = 1,260 days is a lie, both today, and in the first century when John wrote his prophecy. As Paul said, "the letter killeth; the Spirit giveth life." So, there is no way any "literal" fulfillment of the prophecy of the two witnesses could occur in the first century.

The theory that the prophecy applied to the first century was promoted by rationalist German critics, whose theories have contributed to the war of the beast from the pit against the two witnesses, [Revelation 11:7] which has resulted in them being figuratively killed, and their dead bodies being exposed in the street; the two witnesses being symbols of the Spirit and the scriptures.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Nathan]

I'll put out this one last comment on this then I'm done with the thread, it's getting to argumentative. 

Perhaps the prophecy of 1260 isn't based on our current calendar.  1260 divided by 30 (days) is 42.  42 (months) divided by 12 (months) equals 3 1/2 LITERAL years.  Their calander only had 30 days in every month.

Either way, I'll not take up any more of your time on this matter.

[Doug]

I'll put out this one last comment on this then I'm done with the thread, it's getting to argumentative.  

Perhaps the prophecy of 1260 isn't based on our current calendar.  1260 divided by 30 (days) is 42.  42 (months) divided by 12 (months) equals 3 1/2 LITERAL years.  Their calander only had 30 days in every month.

Either way, I'll not take up any more of your time on this matter.

Of course, in the Jewish reckoning, months were lunar months, and while a single month is about 30 days, a multiple of months, such as 42 months, is not 42 x 30 days, but a smaller number, about 1,240 days, as a month is not exactly 30 days. The Jewish new year was determined by observation of the moon's phases at least until the Metonic cycle (used for determining the years with 13 months) was adopted in the 4th century AD. And so in the Hebrew calendar the years were either about 354 days or about 384 days; it is simply incorrect to say that "the Jewish calander had 30 days in every month" although dispensationalists such as Sir Robert Anderson have propagated this misleading belief.

See: CALENDAR, in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

The preterist idea that the 1,260 days and 42 months of Revelation 11 were literal, and were fulfilled in the first century AD, which they seem to have borrowed from the German rationalists of the 19th century, misses the spiritual meaning in those numbers that John used in the prophecies of Revelation 11, 12, & 13, and so they are blinded to these prophecies.

Some of the Reformers were much more enlightened. While many of them said the 1260 days represent years, and some rashly predicted the end of the papacy when the 1,260 years had expired, George Gifford said the numbers were not meant literally, but instead, "a number certain is put for an uncertain."

Below is part of Gifford's discussion of the 1,260 days from one of his sermons on the two witnesses.

Then next here is shewed how long the great AntiChrist and his rout of profane Gentiles, possessing the outer court of the Temple, shall tread down the holy city. The time is set to be two and forty months: and that is three years and a half: for twelve months to a year, three times twelve is thirty and six, and then six months for the half year, do make up two and forty. From this place the Papists do draw one argument, by which they would prove that the Pope is not Antichrist. After this manner they reason: The Pope hath governed the Church many years: the great Antichrist shall reign but two and forty months, which is three years and a half: (for they do rightly confess that the Gentiles which possess the outer court of the temple, are the rout of AntiChrist) therefore say they, it is impossible that the Pope should be AntiChrist. For answer unto this: let it be demanded, doth not Saint John in this prophecy speak mystically, even as the Prophets did in old time? they cannot deny this. And then demand further, is not every day put for a year in the seventy weeks which Daniel the Prophet speaketh of? so every week is seven years. And why may not every month here then be put for thirty years? which then do amount unto 1,260 years. Which indeed is a long time in comparison of three years & an half: but compared with the eternity of Christ's kingdom, it is as nothing. And that is one cause why the Lord numbereth it by days & months which quickly run out. But then here will arise another scruple: If the kingdom of AntiChrist shall continue twelve hundred and sixty years, we must either say that the Bishop of Rome was Antichrist more than a thousand years past, yea above thirteen hundred, if we take his reign to be no longer than until he was disclosed by the Gospel: or else we must say he hath yet long to continue. Let not this trouble us, seeing it is most clear and out of all controversy, that in this book, a number certain is put for an uncertain.

Sermons vpon the whole booke of the Reuelation

by George Gifford.
Richard Field and Felix Kinston, 1599.
Set forth by George Giffard, Preacher of the Word at Mauldin in Essex.

The idea that the 1260 days simply denote an unknown period was useful, but it does not convey the real meaning of these numbers IMO; that meaning is in their relation to the prophecy of the 70 weeks, and in particular, the final, 70th week, which is the week in which Christ confirms the covenant with many. The 1260 days pictures a symbolic half-week, and "a time, times, and a half" which is three and a half "times," and so one-half of "seven times." The first half-week was the ministry of Jesus, and the last half of the period is the entire age of the church, represented by the 1,260 days, which is the present age in which Christ continues to confirm his covenant with his saints.  

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?