Masturbation.

[junkbunny]

removed

[jabcat]

I moved this into the Member's Lounge, out of public viewing.  We'll see how this goes, and if Gary smacks me on the back of the head for it being here.  :grin:.

[shawn]

I see no reason it shouldn't be here.  I think this is a good question and one many believers shy away from.  Are we children and can't talk about such matters?

I can only give you my views.  The whole wasting of seed comment would also go towards birth control as well.  I believe it's one of the reasons Catholics are against using birth control.  I do not agree with this stance so I think its a moot point.

I think masturbation can be a serious problem for a believer.  When married it redirects energy intended for your spouse.  Many times impure images/scenerios are used for arousal.  So, it can possibly lower sexual contact with your spouse and promote thinking that lead to sexual impurity.

With that said, should an umarried individual burn with lust?  If they are able to keep a tight reign on their thought life and still provide physical relief I see no reason it is wrong.  If a married couple is away from each other for an extended period of time...I think the same goes for that situation as well.

If you are using masturbation to avoid intimacy or to abuse the drug of adrenaline through impure thought...that in my mind is sin.

[jabcat]

Are we children and can't talk about such matters?

There's not anything necessarily wrong with the topic, but Gary's focus for TM is UR.  It can probably be tied into UR.  I think the members will treat it appropriately, and that it's better in the membership only section.

[junkbunny]

removed

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:

[shawn]

Are we children and can't talk about such matters?

There's not anything necessarily wrong with the topic, but Gary's focus for TM is UR.  It can probably be tied into UR.  I think the members will treat it appropriately, and that it's better in the membership only section.

The comment wasn't directed at you or TM.  It was a statement about the general blushing of the Christian community on the subject.

[WhiteWings]

I think the problem for many is that it's lust...
Personally wonder if sex without lust even exists.

[shawn]

I think the problem for many is that it's lust...
Personally wonder if sex without lust even exists.

We must have different definitions of lust.  Lust can't be the desire to have sex.  I believe that desire to be God given or we wouldn't have children.  I do not believe that to be an evil desire.

Lust in my opinion is the craving, fantasy of sexual relations that are unpure.  Masturbation by singles without playing with unpure thought....as a mere release mechanism...in my mind is not sin. 

[jabcat]

Are we children and can't talk about such matters?

There's not anything necessarily wrong with the topic, but Gary's focus for TM is UR.  It can probably be tied into UR.  I think the members will treat it appropriately, and that it's better in the membership only section.

The comment wasn't directed at you or TM.  It was a statement about the general blushing of the Christian community on the subject.

k, thanks.

[WhiteWings]

I think the problem for many is that it's lust...
Personally wonder if sex without lust even exists.

We must have different definitions of lust.  Lust can't be the desire to have sex.  I believe that desire to be God given or we wouldn't have children.  I do not believe that to be an evil desire.

I understand that view. But I don't agree with it.
It's just sugar coating things. It's just raw lust but we try to hide that fact with things like "love", "want children"

Lust in my opinion is the craving, fantasy of sexual relations that are unpure.  Masturbation by singles without playing with unpure thought....as a mere release mechanism...in my mind is not sin.

How should that be done? Have no thoughts at all? Think only of.... a cup of coffee for example?

[shawn]

I think the problem for many is that it's lust...
Personally wonder if sex without lust even exists.

We must have different definitions of lust.  Lust can't be the desire to have sex.  I believe that desire to be God given or we wouldn't have children.  I do not believe that to be an evil desire.

I understand that view. But I don't agree with it.
It's just sugar coating things. It's just raw lust but we try to hide that fact with things like "love", "want children"

Lust in my opinion is the craving, fantasy of sexual relations that are unpure.  Masturbation by singles without playing with unpure thought....as a mere release mechanism...in my mind is not sin.

How should that be done? Have no thoughts at all? Think only of.... a cup of coffee for example?

I don't think I could ever understand the turning of a God given desire to procreate into something evil and sinful.  The Catholics are sticklers for this kind of thing and they even define lust as sexual desire outside of the marital bonds.  But, I suppose we can agree to disagree.  I will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.

If a cup of coffee does it for ya then why not.  I don't think you have to think of anything.  Why must there be sexual thought associated with the act?  Do you believe that a single person can not have some sort of release and keep their mind pure?

[WhiteWings]

I will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.

Or perhaps harmed even more marriages. 40% of all marriages that fail is because of lack of fantasy in that marriage.

Why must there be sexual thought associated with the act?

Because the desire comes from your mind; not your hands.

But don't listen to me. My world is Sodom and Gomorra v10

[junkbunny]

removed

[WhiteWings]

I think visual can't be seen as non mental. The visual info is processed by the brain that decides on further action.

Personally I think there is zero/little difference between sexuality of men and women. Women just feel restrained by social standards.
A man that has 2 or more women a week or even a day is a cool guy. A woman that has 2 or more guys in a year is a slut.
So I wonder if women really are different or act different.

[shawn]

I will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.

Or perhaps harmed even more marriages. 40% of all marriages that fail is because of lack of fantasy in that marriage.

Why must there be sexual thought associated with the act?

Because the desire comes from your mind; not your hands.

But don't listen to me. My world is Sodom and Gomorra v10

Please give me a source for your information.  40% failed from a lack of fantasy?  How would one determine that?  Fantasy about extramarital acts is harmful to a marriage.

Second, finances are the biggest contributor to divorce.

And no...there is a physical ache.  You do not need to think about sex to be aroused sexually. 

[shawn]

Actually Shawn I do see where WhiteWings is coming from in terms of the impurity of masturbation - and actually sexual drive differs greatly between males and females.  For a male, I think it's quite easy to satisfy your sexual desire with just physical stimulation.  But there is a lot of strong evidence these days to show that for females sex is much more psychological.   But I dunno - i mean I can't speak on behalf of males because I'm not one, but I have read/heard from guy friends that they are very visual when it comes to sex, so it's not necessarily a mental thing for them - their bodies just REACT.

Still, I don't agree that sex in and of itself is sinful.  It can be engaged in sinfully - but in a marital context it is holy.

You do have a point.  I am indeed speaking from a male perspective.  A male does not have to think about sex in order to have release.  Our bodies do indeed just respond.  My opinion is that if you must think about sexuality that is outside the bonds of marriage then it is indeed sin.

[shawn]

I think visual can't be seen as non mental. The visual info is processed by the brain that decides on further action.

Personally I think there is zero/little difference between sexuality of men and women. Women just feel restrained by social standards.
A man that has 2 or more women a week or even a day is a cool guy. A woman that has 2 or more guys in a year is a slut.
So I wonder if women really are different or act different.

You would be very wrong.  We know that women respond to sexual stimulus differently from a physiological and psychological standpoint.

Many women do indeed feel restrained by social standards...and in fact by thought processes that you describe as your views.  You believe the desire to have sex with your spouse is lust.  Therefore you believe that desire is sin.

I suppose God commanded man to sin when he said be fruitful and multiply.   :dontknow:

[thinktank]

A man that has 2 or more women a week or even a day is a cool guy.

whitewings


I personally think their idiots. I'm not directing this at you though wings  :icon_joker:


But then again they probably have a big problem and need help to overcome their addiction. So calling them an idiot isn't going to help much  :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

I will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.

Or perhaps harmed even more marriages. 40% of all marriages that fail is because of lack of fantasy in that marriage.

Why must there be sexual thought associated with the act?

Because the desire comes from your mind; not your hands.

But don't listen to me. My world is Sodom and Gomorra v10

Please give me a source for your information.  40% failed from a lack of fantasy?  How would one determine that?

I have no source. I was in the news long ago.

Fantasy about extramarital acts is harmful to a marriage.

But sexual boredom is even more harmful

Second, finances are the biggest contributor to divorce.

Yes. And sex 40%

And no...there is a physical ache.  You do not need to think about sex to be aroused sexually.

True, but that doesn't mean that it just stay physical.

[WhiteWings]

I think visual can't be seen as non mental. The visual info is processed by the brain that decides on further action.

Personally I think there is zero/little difference between sexuality of men and women. Women just feel restrained by social standards.
A man that has 2 or more women a week or even a day is a cool guy. A woman that has 2 or more guys in a year is a slut.
So I wonder if women really are different or act different.

You would be very wrong.

Whoops 

We know that women respond to sexual stimulus differently from a physiological and psychological standpoint.

Many women do indeed feel restrained by social standards...and in fact by thought processes that you describe as your views.

What if there was absolutly sero restraint. Wouldn't men and women act much more the same?

You believe the desire to have sex with your spouse is lust.

Yes.

Therefore you believe that desire is sin.

I suppose God commanded man to sin when he said be fruitful and multiply.   :dontknow:

Lust and desire are the same:
ἐπιθυμέω
epithumeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to turn upon a thing
2) to have a desire for, long for, to desire
3) to lust after, covet
3a) of those who seek things forbidden
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G1909 and G2372

[shawn]

I will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.

Or perhaps harmed even more marriages. 40% of all marriages that fail is because of lack of fantasy in that marriage.

Why must there be sexual thought associated with the act?

Because the desire comes from your mind; not your hands.

But don't listen to me. My world is Sodom and Gomorra v10

Please give me a source for your information.  40% failed from a lack of fantasy?  How would one determine that?

I have no source. I was in the news long ago.

Fantasy about extramarital acts is harmful to a marriage.

But sexual boredom is even more harmful

Second, finances are the biggest contributor to divorce.

Yes. And sex 40%

And no...there is a physical ache.  You do not need to think about sex to be aroused sexually.

True, but that doesn't mean that it just stay physical.

You have been listening to too much secular sexuality talk.  Stop watching Dr. Ruth  :grin:  Boredom in the bedroom comes from impure expectations.  If you expect the adrenaline pop you get with fantasy after 10+ years of marriage you will be sadly disappointed.  Couples who are looking for that have to escalate to maintain.  The fantasies get odder and more perverse.  Then they start playing with videos.  After they open that door, then what is to keep them from alternative lifestyles.  Chasing the adrenaline is as much of a drug problem as cocaine.  It destroys marriages.

Instead a proper view of the marital bedroom is needed.  After 13 years of marriage I am more attracted to my wife then I have ever been.  But, that is because we have intimacy.  When we come together sexually we do not expect animalistic carnal sexuality.  We become one...we make love and enjoy each other in the moment.  We have no fantasy, no role play and have a very enjoyable sex life.  Fantasy brings forth dysfunction.  The world would have you believe the opposite. 

[shawn]

Here are some frequently cited reasons for causing divorce:

Lack of commitment to the marriage
Lack of communication between spouses
Infidelity
Abandonment
Alcohol Addiction
Substance Abuse
Physical Abuse
Sexual Abuse
Emotional Abuse
Inability to manage or resolve conflict
Personality Differences or 'irreconcilable differences'
Differences in personal and career goals
Financial problems
Different expectations about household tasks
Different expectations about having or rearing children
Interference from parents or in-laws
Lack of maturity
Intellectual Incompatibility
Sexual Incompatibility
Insistence of sticking to traditional roles and not allowing room for personal growth
Falling out of love
Religious conversion or religious beliefs
Cultural and lifestyle differences
Inability to deal with each other's petty idiosyncrasies
Mental Instability or Mental Illness
Criminal behavior and incarceration for crime


Research done on the causes of divorce reveals that –

Lack of communication is one of the leading causes of divorce. A marriage is on the rocks when the lines of communication fail. You can't have an effective relationship if either one of you won't discuss your feelings, can't talk about your mutual or personal issues, will keep your resentments simmering under wraps, and expect your partner to guess what the whole problem is about.
Divorces often happen because people rarely discuss their expectations in detail prior to marriage, are less willing to work on their marriages afterwards, and would like quick solutions rather than having to resolve issues. People have gotten divorced for trivial reasons like snoring.
People who come from divorced homes are more likely to get divorced than people who come from happily married households. Divorce seems less like a big deal if you have seen your parents go through with it.
People who get married between the ages of 23-27 are more likely to stay together than people who get married in their teens.
People who cohabit before marriage have higher rates of divorce than people who didn't cohabit before marriage.
In many cases, quite a few of the problems that cause divorce have existed in the couple's relationship long before they got married. The problems were either not acknowledged or were ignored in the fond hope that marriage might offer a miraculous panacea. And, guess what, it doesn't. Nobody can make you feel better about yourself and you can't change and save anybody. As someone wise once said, it takes two wholes to make a marriage, not two halves.

[shawn]

I think visual can't be seen as non mental. The visual info is processed by the brain that decides on further action.

Personally I think there is zero/little difference between sexuality of men and women. Women just feel restrained by social standards.
A man that has 2 or more women a week or even a day is a cool guy. A woman that has 2 or more guys in a year is a slut.
So I wonder if women really are different or act different.

You would be very wrong.

Whoops 

We know that women respond to sexual stimulus differently from a physiological and psychological standpoint.

Many women do indeed feel restrained by social standards...and in fact by thought processes that you describe as your views.

What if there was absolutly sero restraint. Wouldn't men and women act much more the same?

You believe the desire to have sex with your spouse is lust.

Yes.

Therefore you believe that desire is sin.

I suppose God commanded man to sin when he said be fruitful and multiply.   :dontknow:

Lust and desire are the same:
ἐπιθυμέω
epithumeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to turn upon a thing
2) to have a desire for, long for, to desire
3) to lust after, covet
3a) of those who seek things forbidden
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G1909 and G2372

So God commanded us to sin?  Strange.  I like this definition a touch better.  Intense or unrestrained sexual craving.  We are to control our bodies as holy vessels.  We are not to be like unrestrained animals...that is carnality.  We are not called to carnality.  But, we have been given a tremendous gift of God.  He has given us to become one with our spouse.  That is a beautiful act and a beautiful gift.  I feel very sorry for anyone who sees it any other way.

[thinktank]

I will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.

Or perhaps harmed even more marriages. 40% of all marriages that fail is because of lack of fantasy in that marriage.

Why must there be sexual thought associated with the act?

Because the desire comes from your mind; not your hands.

But don't listen to me. My world is Sodom and Gomorra v10

Please give me a source for your information.  40% failed from a lack of fantasy?  How would one determine that?

I have no source. I was in the news long ago.

Fantasy about extramarital acts is harmful to a marriage.

But sexual boredom is even more harmful

Second, finances are the biggest contributor to divorce.

Yes. And sex 40%

And no...there is a physical ache.  You do not need to think about sex to be aroused sexually.

True, but that doesn't mean that it just stay physical.

You have been listening to too much secular sexuality talk.  Stop watching Dr. Ruth  :grin:  Boredom in the bedroom comes from impure expectations.  If you expect the adrenaline pop you get with fantasy after 10+ years of marriage you will be sadly disappointed.  Couples who are looking for that have to escalate to maintain.  The fantasies get odder and more perverse.  Then they start playing with videos.  After they open that door, then what is to keep them from alternative lifestyles.  Chasing the adrenaline is as much of a drug problem as cocaine.  It destroys marriages.

Instead a proper view of the marital bedroom is needed.  After 13 years of marriage I am more attracted to my wife then I have ever been.  But, that is because we have intimacy.  When we come together sexually we do not expect animalistic carnal sexuality.  We become one...we make love and enjoy each other in the moment.  We have no fantasy, no role play and have a very enjoyable sex life.  Fantasy brings forth dysfunction.  The world would have you believe the opposite. 

:thumbsup: