removed
I moved this into the Member's Lounge, out of public viewing. We'll see how this goes, and if Gary smacks me on the back of the head for it being here. :grin:.
I see no reason it shouldn't be here. I think this is a good question and one many believers shy away from. Are we children and can't talk about such matters?
I can only give you my views. The whole wasting of seed comment would also go towards birth control as well. I believe it's one of the reasons Catholics are against using birth control. I do not agree with this stance so I think its a moot point.
I think masturbation can be a serious problem for a believer. When married it redirects energy intended for your spouse. Many times impure images/scenerios are used for arousal. So, it can possibly lower sexual contact with your spouse and promote thinking that lead to sexual impurity.
With that said, should an umarried individual burn with lust? If they are able to keep a tight reign on their thought life and still provide physical relief I see no reason it is wrong. If a married couple is away from each other for an extended period of time...I think the same goes for that situation as well.
If you are using masturbation to avoid intimacy or to abuse the drug of adrenaline through impure thought...that in my mind is sin.
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 07:39:12 AM
Are we children and can't talk about such matters?
There's not anything necessarily wrong with the topic, but Gary's focus for TM is UR. It can probably be tied into UR. I think the members will treat it appropriately, and that it's better in the membership only section.
removed
:bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on September 07, 2010, 08:06:42 AM
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 07:39:12 AM
Are we children and can't talk about such matters?
There's not anything necessarily wrong with the topic, but Gary's focus for TM is UR. It can probably be tied into UR. I think the members will treat it appropriately, and that it's better in the membership only section.
The comment wasn't directed at you or TM. It was a statement about the general blushing of the Christian community on the subject.
I think the problem for many is that it's lust...
Personally wonder if sex without lust even exists.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 09:01:45 AM
I think the problem for many is that it's lust...
Personally wonder if sex without lust even exists.
We must have different definitions of lust. Lust can't be the desire to have sex. I believe that desire to be God given or we wouldn't have children. I do not believe that to be an evil desire.
Lust in my opinion is the craving, fantasy of sexual relations that are unpure. Masturbation by singles without playing with unpure thought....as a mere release mechanism...in my mind is not sin.
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 08:47:54 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 07, 2010, 08:06:42 AM
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 07:39:12 AM
Are we children and can't talk about such matters?
There's not anything necessarily wrong with the topic, but Gary's focus for TM is UR. It can probably be tied into UR. I think the members will treat it appropriately, and that it's better in the membership only section.
The comment wasn't directed at you or TM. It was a statement about the general blushing of the Christian community on the subject.
k, thanks.
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 09:12:54 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 09:01:45 AM
I think the problem for many is that it's lust...
Personally wonder if sex without lust even exists.
We must have different definitions of lust. Lust can't be the desire to have sex. I believe that desire to be God given or we wouldn't have children. I do not believe that to be an evil desire.
I understand that view. But I don't agree with it.
It's just sugar coating things. It's just raw lust but we try to hide that fact with things like "love", "want children"
QuoteLust in my opinion is the craving, fantasy of sexual relations that are unpure. Masturbation by singles without playing with unpure thought....as a mere release mechanism...in my mind is not sin.
How should that be done? Have no thoughts at all? Think only of.... a cup of coffee for example?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 09:49:08 AM
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 09:12:54 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 09:01:45 AM
I think the problem for many is that it's lust...
Personally wonder if sex without lust even exists.
We must have different definitions of lust. Lust can't be the desire to have sex. I believe that desire to be God given or we wouldn't have children. I do not believe that to be an evil desire.
I understand that view. But I don't agree with it.
It's just sugar coating things. It's just raw lust but we try to hide that fact with things like "love", "want children"
QuoteLust in my opinion is the craving, fantasy of sexual relations that are unpure. Masturbation by singles without playing with unpure thought....as a mere release mechanism...in my mind is not sin.
How should that be done? Have no thoughts at all? Think only of.... a cup of coffee for example?
I don't think I could ever understand the turning of a God given desire to procreate into something evil and sinful. The Catholics are sticklers for this kind of thing and they even define lust as sexual desire outside of the marital bonds. But, I suppose we can agree to disagree. I will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.
If a cup of coffee does it for ya then why not. I don't think you have to think of anything. Why must there be sexual thought associated with the act? Do you believe that a single person can not have some sort of release and keep their mind pure?
QuoteI will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.
Or perhaps harmed even more marriages. 40% of all marriages that fail is because of lack of fantasy in that marriage.
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 10:15:42 AMWhy must there be sexual thought associated with the act?
Because the desire comes from your mind; not your hands.
But don't listen to me. My world is Sodom and Gomorra v10
removed
I think visual can't be seen as non mental. The visual info is processed by the brain that decides on further action.
Personally I think there is zero/little difference between sexuality of men and women. Women just feel restrained by social standards.
A man that has 2 or more women a week or even a day is a cool guy. A woman that has 2 or more guys in a year is a slut.
So I wonder if women really are different or act different.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 11:24:44 AM
QuoteI will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.
Or perhaps harmed even more marriages. 40% of all marriages that fail is because of lack of fantasy in that marriage.
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 10:15:42 AMWhy must there be sexual thought associated with the act?
Because the desire comes from your mind; not your hands.
But don't listen to me. My world is Sodom and Gomorra v10
Please give me a source for your information. 40% failed from a lack of fantasy? How would one determine that? Fantasy about extramarital acts is harmful to a marriage.
Second, finances are the biggest contributor to divorce.
And no...there is a physical ache. You do not need to think about sex to be aroused sexually.
Quote from: junkbunny on September 07, 2010, 02:03:19 PM
Actually Shawn I do see where WhiteWings is coming from in terms of the impurity of masturbation - and actually sexual drive differs greatly between males and females. For a male, I think it's quite easy to satisfy your sexual desire with just physical stimulation. But there is a lot of strong evidence these days to show that for females sex is much more psychological. But I dunno - i mean I can't speak on behalf of males because I'm not one, but I have read/heard from guy friends that they are very visual when it comes to sex, so it's not necessarily a mental thing for them - their bodies just REACT.
Still, I don't agree that sex in and of itself is sinful. It can be engaged in sinfully - but in a marital context it is holy.
You do have a point. I am indeed speaking from a male perspective. A male does not have to think about sex in order to have release. Our bodies do indeed just respond. My opinion is that if you must think about sexuality that is outside the bonds of marriage then it is indeed sin.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 03:03:41 PM
I think visual can't be seen as non mental. The visual info is processed by the brain that decides on further action.
Personally I think there is zero/little difference between sexuality of men and women. Women just feel restrained by social standards.
A man that has 2 or more women a week or even a day is a cool guy. A woman that has 2 or more guys in a year is a slut.
So I wonder if women really are different or act different.
You would be very wrong. We know that women respond to sexual stimulus differently from a physiological and psychological standpoint.
Many women do indeed feel restrained by social standards...and in fact by thought processes that you describe as your views. You believe the desire to have sex with your spouse is lust. Therefore you believe that desire is sin.
I suppose God commanded man to sin when he said be fruitful and multiply. :dontknow:
A man that has 2 or more women a week or even a day is a cool guy.
whitewings
I personally think their idiots. I'm not directing this at you though wings :icon_joker:
But then again they probably have a big problem and need help to overcome their addiction. So calling them an idiot isn't going to help much :dontknow:
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 11:24:44 AM
QuoteI will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.
Or perhaps harmed even more marriages. 40% of all marriages that fail is because of lack of fantasy in that marriage.
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 10:15:42 AMWhy must there be sexual thought associated with the act?
Because the desire comes from your mind; not your hands.
But don't listen to me. My world is Sodom and Gomorra v10
Please give me a source for your information. 40% failed from a lack of fantasy? How would one determine that?
I have no source. I was in the news long ago.
QuoteFantasy about extramarital acts is harmful to a marriage.
But sexual boredom is even more harmful
QuoteSecond, finances are the biggest contributor to divorce.
Yes. And sex 40%
QuoteAnd no...there is a physical ache. You do not need to think about sex to be aroused sexually.
True, but that doesn't mean that it just stay physical.
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 03:42:01 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 03:03:41 PM
I think visual can't be seen as non mental. The visual info is processed by the brain that decides on further action.
Personally I think there is zero/little difference between sexuality of men and women. Women just feel restrained by social standards.
A man that has 2 or more women a week or even a day is a cool guy. A woman that has 2 or more guys in a year is a slut.
So I wonder if women really are different or act different.
You would be very wrong.
Whoops
QuoteWe know that women respond to sexual stimulus differently from a physiological and psychological standpoint.
QuoteMany women do indeed feel restrained by social standards...and in fact by thought processes that you describe as your views.
What if there was absolutly sero restraint. Wouldn't men and women act much more the same?
QuoteYou believe the desire to have sex with your spouse is lust.
Yes.
QuoteTherefore you believe that desire is sin.
I suppose God commanded man to sin when he said be fruitful and multiply. :dontknow:
Lust and desire are the same:
ἐπιθυμέω
epithumeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to turn upon a thing
2) to have a desire for, long for, to desire
3) to lust after, covet
3a) of those who seek things forbidden
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G1909 and G2372
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 07:06:25 PM
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 11:24:44 AM
QuoteI will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.
Or perhaps harmed even more marriages. 40% of all marriages that fail is because of lack of fantasy in that marriage.
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 10:15:42 AMWhy must there be sexual thought associated with the act?
Because the desire comes from your mind; not your hands.
But don't listen to me. My world is Sodom and Gomorra v10
Please give me a source for your information. 40% failed from a lack of fantasy? How would one determine that?
I have no source. I was in the news long ago.
QuoteFantasy about extramarital acts is harmful to a marriage.
But sexual boredom is even more harmful
QuoteSecond, finances are the biggest contributor to divorce.
Yes. And sex 40%
QuoteAnd no...there is a physical ache. You do not need to think about sex to be aroused sexually.
True, but that doesn't mean that it just stay physical.
You have been listening to too much secular sexuality talk. Stop watching Dr. Ruth :grin: Boredom in the bedroom comes from impure expectations. If you expect the adrenaline pop you get with fantasy after 10+ years of marriage you will be sadly disappointed. Couples who are looking for that have to escalate to maintain. The fantasies get odder and more perverse. Then they start playing with videos. After they open that door, then what is to keep them from alternative lifestyles. Chasing the adrenaline is as much of a drug problem as cocaine. It destroys marriages.
Instead a proper view of the marital bedroom is needed. After 13 years of marriage I am more attracted to my wife then I have ever been. But, that is because we have intimacy. When we come together sexually we do not expect animalistic carnal sexuality. We become one...we make love and enjoy each other in the moment. We have no fantasy, no role play and have a very enjoyable sex life. Fantasy brings forth dysfunction. The world would have you believe the opposite.
Here are some frequently cited reasons for causing divorce:
Lack of commitment to the marriage
Lack of communication between spouses
Infidelity
Abandonment
Alcohol Addiction
Substance Abuse
Physical Abuse
Sexual Abuse
Emotional Abuse
Inability to manage or resolve conflict
Personality Differences or 'irreconcilable differences'
Differences in personal and career goals
Financial problems
Different expectations about household tasks
Different expectations about having or rearing children
Interference from parents or in-laws
Lack of maturity
Intellectual Incompatibility
Sexual Incompatibility
Insistence of sticking to traditional roles and not allowing room for personal growth
Falling out of love
Religious conversion or religious beliefs
Cultural and lifestyle differences
Inability to deal with each other's petty idiosyncrasies
Mental Instability or Mental Illness
Criminal behavior and incarceration for crime
Research done on the causes of divorce reveals that –
Lack of communication is one of the leading causes of divorce. A marriage is on the rocks when the lines of communication fail. You can't have an effective relationship if either one of you won't discuss your feelings, can't talk about your mutual or personal issues, will keep your resentments simmering under wraps, and expect your partner to guess what the whole problem is about.
Divorces often happen because people rarely discuss their expectations in detail prior to marriage, are less willing to work on their marriages afterwards, and would like quick solutions rather than having to resolve issues. People have gotten divorced for trivial reasons like snoring.
People who come from divorced homes are more likely to get divorced than people who come from happily married households. Divorce seems less like a big deal if you have seen your parents go through with it.
People who get married between the ages of 23-27 are more likely to stay together than people who get married in their teens.
People who cohabit before marriage have higher rates of divorce than people who didn't cohabit before marriage.
In many cases, quite a few of the problems that cause divorce have existed in the couple's relationship long before they got married. The problems were either not acknowledged or were ignored in the fond hope that marriage might offer a miraculous panacea. And, guess what, it doesn't. Nobody can make you feel better about yourself and you can't change and save anybody. As someone wise once said, it takes two wholes to make a marriage, not two halves.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 07:15:11 PM
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 03:42:01 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 03:03:41 PM
I think visual can't be seen as non mental. The visual info is processed by the brain that decides on further action.
Personally I think there is zero/little difference between sexuality of men and women. Women just feel restrained by social standards.
A man that has 2 or more women a week or even a day is a cool guy. A woman that has 2 or more guys in a year is a slut.
So I wonder if women really are different or act different.
You would be very wrong.
Whoops
QuoteWe know that women respond to sexual stimulus differently from a physiological and psychological standpoint.
QuoteMany women do indeed feel restrained by social standards...and in fact by thought processes that you describe as your views.
What if there was absolutly sero restraint. Wouldn't men and women act much more the same?
QuoteYou believe the desire to have sex with your spouse is lust.
Yes.
QuoteTherefore you believe that desire is sin.
I suppose God commanded man to sin when he said be fruitful and multiply. :dontknow:
Lust and desire are the same:
ἐπιθυμέω
epithumeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to turn upon a thing
2) to have a desire for, long for, to desire
3) to lust after, covet
3a) of those who seek things forbidden
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G1909 and G2372
So God commanded us to sin? Strange. I like this definition a touch better. Intense or unrestrained sexual craving. We are to control our bodies as holy vessels. We are not to be like unrestrained animals...that is carnality. We are not called to carnality. But, we have been given a tremendous gift of God. He has given us to become one with our spouse. That is a beautiful act and a beautiful gift. I feel very sorry for anyone who sees it any other way.
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 08:35:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 07:06:25 PM
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 11:24:44 AM
QuoteI will say though that it's this kind of thinking that has harmed many a marriage sexually.
Or perhaps harmed even more marriages. 40% of all marriages that fail is because of lack of fantasy in that marriage.
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 10:15:42 AMWhy must there be sexual thought associated with the act?
Because the desire comes from your mind; not your hands.
But don't listen to me. My world is Sodom and Gomorra v10
Please give me a source for your information. 40% failed from a lack of fantasy? How would one determine that?
I have no source. I was in the news long ago.
QuoteFantasy about extramarital acts is harmful to a marriage.
But sexual boredom is even more harmful
QuoteSecond, finances are the biggest contributor to divorce.
Yes. And sex 40%
QuoteAnd no...there is a physical ache. You do not need to think about sex to be aroused sexually.
True, but that doesn't mean that it just stay physical.
You have been listening to too much secular sexuality talk. Stop watching Dr. Ruth :grin: Boredom in the bedroom comes from impure expectations. If you expect the adrenaline pop you get with fantasy after 10+ years of marriage you will be sadly disappointed. Couples who are looking for that have to escalate to maintain. The fantasies get odder and more perverse. Then they start playing with videos. After they open that door, then what is to keep them from alternative lifestyles. Chasing the adrenaline is as much of a drug problem as cocaine. It destroys marriages.
Instead a proper view of the marital bedroom is needed. After 13 years of marriage I am more attracted to my wife then I have ever been. But, that is because we have intimacy. When we come together sexually we do not expect animalistic carnal sexuality. We become one...we make love and enjoy each other in the moment. We have no fantasy, no role play and have a very enjoyable sex life. Fantasy brings forth dysfunction. The world would have you believe the opposite.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 08:35:55 PM
You have been listening to too much secular sexuality talk. Stop watching Dr. Ruth :grin:
I don't even know who that is :winkgrin:
Let's just say you and live in two totally different worlds... :mshock:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2010, 09:26:02 PM
Quote from: shawn on September 07, 2010, 08:35:55 PM
You have been listening to too much secular sexuality talk. Stop watching Dr. Ruth :grin:
I don't even know who that is :winkgrin:
Let's just say you and live in two totally different worlds... :mshock:
I agree. When I was reading your thoughts on sexuality I was like ??? I suppose that's what makes the world go around.
I think it's a bit sad you think sexuality is the same for men and women, WW. I'm not saying your opinion is invalid, I just see that there's a lot of evidence to show otherwise.
Bringing the conversation back to the original topic.... does the Bible have anything to say about masturbation specifically, or is it all tied in with sexual impurity?
A very fine line between the issues. The problem is, it is such a volatile thing, it can easily hurt you, and others; fantasy in general.
I've never felt a pain quite like it, when someone I held dear admitted to me impure thoughts about a man on a film she'd seen. ...Then other issues like not talking to me, becoming completely untrustworthy, flinging me into Sheol, etc...and just...well...nevermind...Point being: Sexual sin is a cruel thing, and it won't just hurt the one committing it, but it will hurt elsewhere too. This may be one of the main reasons why it is not so often discussed by the church, is because if it is condoned, then the lust that so easily follows will stab the body of Christ, like it stabbed me. If it is condemned however, like many already do - then there is...an odd, insecure form of 'failsafe'. Alas, there hasn't been a way to really discuss the issue without flaring points of view, and emotional baggage behind it.
The Bible does not (as far as I can see) have anything to say about "The Act", but it has myriads to say about the motives behind it.
But I'll get to the grit of the matter: People don't ask if Masturbation is a sin unless they are doing it, or know someone who is, and are questioning the act.
But the problem is not with the act itself, so much as the motive, and the thought(s) behind it. Sin begins in the head, before it reaches the crotch it always does. The Flesh is our biggest enemy, Satan is only our second biggest, for he can only stick around us for a little while...But we are stuck inside our flesh, until it dies.
The question I'd ask, is not so much if the act is wrong; sex, sexuality, are not wrong...it is with whom, why, and when. Masturbation is likewise.
But now that I am at the grit, I'll call the root from its lair.
[note; all references in the word 'you' and variations are synonymous with the "anonymous" individual asking the question]
What is your person's motive in asking?
If you need sexual release...then that means you are being aroused, if you are being aroused then something is arousing you. What is it? Is it sinful? Can you escape from it? Flee the harlot's door, flee from sin/lust, etc.
Is your act done out of being aroused by a fantasy outside of God's legal place for sexual expression: Marriage.
Is your act really "just the act", masturbation for the majority of the time only happens after arousal, and very rarely can someone act by sheer physical motion alone, sex and sexually rooted acts always begin in the head.
What is the root behind the act, in essence, and is that root against God?
If yes: Then it is definitely a sin.
If no: Are you sure you should tempt yourself with such a volatile thing? Flee temptation.
If no, and you are able to handle it without your mind ever wavering, and it is purely a release: It is not sin.
If no, and you are married: Keep it to your husband/wife. The marriage bed is undefiled.
:cloud9: The meaning of sin: it means to miss the mark. The mark is the mind of Christ, the mind of Christ is how God thinks about a subject.
Also; He defined lust for me as, desiring ANYTHING contrary to His perfect will FOR THE INDIVIDUAL.
So, with this in mind, believe it or not, it is possible for something to be sin for one person but not sin for another. The difference is in the motive/direction of the person's heart, ie. did God tell them to do/not do? If not, then WHO did? My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 08, 2010, 11:16:21 AM
:cloud9: The meaning of sin: it means to miss the mark. The mark is the mind of Christ, the mind of Christ is how God thinks about a subject.
Also; He defined lust for me as, desiring ANYTHING contrary to His perfect will FOR THE INDIVIDUAL.
So, with this in mind, believe it or not, it is possible for something to be sin for one person but not sin for another. The difference is in the motive/direction of the person's heart, ie. did God tell them to do/not do? If not, then WHO did? My :2c: Blessings....
:grin: :thumbsup:
I suppose its testimony time...
>_>
<_<
>_>
Story skipped aside, I do remember once upon a night so dreary, a few years ago when an almost audible, or if I may be bold, audible voice echoed out from inside me, and also around me ask;
"Why are you doing this?"
It was not condemning, or accusative...but a questioning sort of "concern". If only I had known at the time how blessed and significant it was, but I am pretty sure thinking back - It was the first time I'd ever actually "heard" the voice of God.
"Why are you doing this?"
I did not have a good answer, or a satisfactory reason outside of wanting to feel close to someone who was not mine, and based on circumstances that unfolded even to this day, barring a miracle - Will not be mine.
I am not sure if that is helpful to anyone, but it is the only "solid" point from God I really have on a subject that plagues many people including myself.
It boils down to "why are you doing this?", and whether or not you can really give a satisfying answer to the God who asks you. When faced with the voice of his concern for you - it is difficult to provide such an answer that allows you to continue with good conscience.
My suggestion then, is to ask God yourself - "Why am I doing this? What do you have to say about it?"
He gives wisdom liberally.
:cloud9: Amen, yes He does. If we are quick to judge the motive of our own heart (when we know it) and deal with it accordingly, then we avoid the judgment of the flesh of that thing, or at least a worse judgment of it. The fire burns but for a season if we willingly lay it down, but it burns continually (neverending ;) UNTIL we do. Blessings...
What a topic! And it's great that the mods give us the liberty of letting it be a discussion. Church definitely looks down on this nasty issue like it's a plague. At the same time, there's good reason for some of that caution. As long as we live in these tents of flesh, we are suseptable to the pitfalls along the way.
Walking in the spirit is a great remedy to this issue mainly because it's literally a flesh issue. I have found that as a guy, we are much less tempted to become emotionally attached or stirred up sexually with the opposite sex like we can be visually. It don't take much!
And the truth is, I think Card was aiming at it when she mentioned sin is simply missing the mark. This really isn't any worse than any other "sin" out there as far as your standing with God goes. Nothing can separate you from his love. However, some things can really mess you up on other levels. This is one of those things.
Not all sins lead to death (separation) but for me personally, I think this is one of those that can because it is physically addictive if it's not governed properly. Is it wrong to masturbate? What is masterbation if it's not personal gratification? What part of me am I gratifying? My flesh or my spirit? If it's my spirit that I'm gratifying then I don't see it as missing the mark . . .but if it's flesh I'm gratifying . . .
Does God approve? Does he disapprove? For me, if I remember right, there's only one thing that pleases God . . .faith. As for anything short of that, I really don't think it's on his top ten list of unforgivable sins. Paul says and I agree, I can do anything I want to do. If I want to masturbate . . .
However, not everything is "profitable". Playing with the joys of sexual pleasure is one thing inside the confines of a marriage between one man and one woman . . .anything outside of that, you "can" pursue it, but man, there are some serious reprocussions from that type of thing that will attach themselves to you for the rest of your natural life if you don't allow Christ to intervein in it.
I think there are many reasons why God said it's not good for man to be alone. Remember, these bodies are loaners. They're not ours. We should treat them the same way a visitor treats someone else's home. So if this is a temple of the Holy Ghost, is there anything wrong with personal gratification through sexual activity?
I really think the Holy Spirit has already answer that question in every individual, the question is . . .are we listening?
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
QuoteI really think the Holy Spirit has already answer that question in every individual, the question is . . .are we listening?
:thumbsup:
I think one of the problem with this activity is that it is a strange act and so it is assumed to be sinfull and evil, even though there is no scripture. But according to the medical establishment it is necessary in order to cleanse and renew. I guess the big problem is when it becomes an addiction. So the question is who is in control, the body with its desires? e.g hunger, The sinfull heart? i.e greed or the mind/spirit? holyness. If its similar to hot dogs, then we know that eating to much of this is bad for ones health, but if one eats it sparingly then no harm can happen, but to move on and gradually change and renew ones habits, which gets easier with age :laughing7:
If there is lots of lust it's usually concentrated in the heart area, so if one meditates on this area and asks the spirit of Jesus Christ to come in and burn away the lust, burn, burn, concentrate for a long period of time. Also one can call upon the blood of Jesus Christ to wash and cleanse this area. Another tool is to declare that I am a dead man cruxified in Christ, this makes the lust temptation boring and unprofitable.
I always look at it as giving the spirit control over the flesh. Masturbation imo is a fleshly, carnal desire that our spirit should control. It is not a sin to be sexually aroused imo but our spirit must have control over that arousal to do with it accordingly. Otherwise we'd all be like those dogs you see that hump anything in sight! :mlaugh:
I believe that these desires are for a husband and wife and should be kept that way. We are to become like Christ... I can't imagine he wouldn't have had control over those desires.
Anyhow, that is my understanding and :2c:.
Quote from: lomarah on September 15, 2010, 04:02:14 PM
I always look at it as giving the spirit control over the flesh. Masturbation imo is a fleshly, carnal desire that our spirit should control. It is not a sin to be sexually aroused imo but our spirit must have control over that arousal to do with it accordingly. Otherwise we'd all be like those dogs you see that hump anything in sight! :mlaugh:
I believe that these desires are for a husband and wife and should be kept that way. We are to become like Christ... I can't imagine he wouldn't have had control over those desires.
Anyhow, that is my understanding and :2c:.
:thumbsup:
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who shared their two cents! This has been a fantastic discussion. :)
Sin, is it really the issue ???
I go by all the books written on the subject, i.e. Sin IS "the breaking of the rules or Law...." To Trespass (Break) what our book or leader says is our law to follow. If our leader says not to wear a wedding ring, not to wear makeup, not to shop on Sunday, then these are all sins to us if we condone our leaders. If the elders of our church says we cant use rubber on our wagon wheels on the buggies because it is too modern, and we do, then it is a Trespass or sin to those we are a part of.....
Now as for me, I am free from ALL Sin because my God's Son Killed Sin at the Reserrection , And there is no sin for me in Christ. Because ""I """ know that sin is the transgression of a law that does not apply to me because Christ did away with all rules-Law-that have to be followed to be right with His Father. I am Alive Forever IN the new Life that is Christ. Christ saved All Things and Completed His Plan on Saving Mankind and (all things are all matter[atoms] and all space between atoms) All things are saved..
Now Sin, well if you follow the law because sin IS transgression of law, Then Christ WILL PROFIT YOU NOTHING......
Touching ones self ? If it is against your church rules then it is a sin, and wrong....
Even tho God does not see sin of any kind even the ones that you think is sin and is not....
Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 on October 12, 2010, 01:59:37 AM
Touching ones self ? If it is against your church rules then it is a sin, and wrong....
Even tho God does not see sin of any kind even the ones that you think is sin and is not....
Isn't that legalism though. Where we must follow mans tradditions and rules in the church rather than Gods rules?
I can see your point though that all churches have different type of rules etc, but how can breaking these man made rules be thought of as sin?
Because Man is making the rules that "they" say is right / wrong.
All Religions have rules, All religions are part of Christ NOW.
And Law does not dictate our Justification. Christ does. or Did. We are Justified...
Made right with God the father....
I personally hate legalism and fight against all form of such. It is embedded in 99.99999999 % of our Churches/Religions.
Quote from: thinktank on October 12, 2010, 02:17:24 AM
Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 on October 12, 2010, 01:59:37 AM
Touching ones self ? If it is against your church rules then it is a sin, and wrong....
Even tho God does not see sin of any kind even the ones that you think is sin and is not....
Isn't that legalism though. Where we must follow mans tradditions and rules in the church rather than Gods rules?
I can see your point though that all churches have different type of rules etc, but how can breaking these man made rules be thought of as sin?
Mans rules as sin??? Because Breaking the rules/Law "if you are in that system of legalism" is sin for you.,.... I call it a self re-enforced delusion
Anarchy is also a form of Legalism, lets not forget that.
"There is only one rule...no rules...Break it! And oooh you're gonna get it!"
(ironically, anarchy is also a illogical and cannot actually exist considering that line of thought)
As for Masturbation and Legalism in the churches, etc, etc. What would a person with The Mind of Christ do? "What would Jesus do?"
That's our standard.
Like:
lying
Cheating
Stealing
killing
Masturbation
or ANY OF THE 640 LAWS ON THE BOOKS. Breaking them is sin... if your a Law follower....
But the Good News is that the Law dose not effect humankind any more.... i.e. No Law=No breaking a law. i.e. No transgression, No Sin. No Death.... Only Life in Christ.
let me put it this way too.
you say what would JC do??
One thing I am positive of is that every act I do I Make JC do because he never leaves this Man I am and he don't sin according to some peoples thoughts
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+6%3A1-13&version=NIV
This verse I think is self-explanatory on the issue.
Quote from: Lefein on October 12, 2010, 02:33:52 AM
Anarchy is also a form of Legalism, lets not forget that.
"There is only one rule...no rules...Break it! And oooh you're gonna get it!"
(ironically, anarchy is also a illogical and cannot actually exist considering that line of thought)
As for Masturbation and Legalism in the churches, etc, etc. What would a person with The Mind of Christ do? "What would Jesus do?"
That's our standard.
Yeah Jesus also preached against law breakers not just the legalistic pharisses
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
I belive the message is that with good church Philadelphia teaching, the church equips the body of christ to follow the 12 commandments of God and if one falls pick them up with love of christ and edifying scriptures.
But legalistic churches teach that anyone who breaks the law is condmened.
But Ladocean churches teach that there are no laws and we can sin to our hearts content for this is why Jesus died for us.
I have to say "my personal feelings and don't want to offend people"
That part of Rom. Is talking to a people that was still trying to follow the law and Paul was teaching them "slowly" how to let go of the law even tho that was all they knew and was comfie with. I personally know that Masturbation could be wrong to me personally. But as for the Father! If it is sin, He dose not see it....
That act can lead all people down roads that are not a good place, but it is not wrong for me. What makes it wrong for me is if I think of someone I should not be thinking of....
Indeed Thinktank.
We must also remember, that sin is not so much about "oooh you broke a law, now God's gonna get you!" God did not make laws arbitrarily, sin is sin because it is harmful in some fashion or form.
Death and Sin are interweaved. Death harms, so does sinful behaviour.
To sin to our heart's content as if we had license to do so, no longer being under condemnation under The Law, as if Jesus died to give us freedom to have what ever orgy we darn well please...well...It might not condemn us to Death, but it'll certainly harm us, and destroy our peace, joy, and happiness on our pilgrimage here.
Jesus didn't die to allow us to be masochistic, he rose again so we would genuinely live. Self-harm isn't genuinely living, it is...ickiness, for lack of a spiritual word.
God hurts, and grieves when he sees his children hurt. "Jesus wept." is a very powerful verse for a reason.
Sorry, I have to point out a few things I see slanted in your thinks process.
your quotes I hilighted in Green then I will insert my comment.....
Quote from: Lefein on October 12, 2010, 02:51:01 AM
Indeed Thinktank.
We must also remember, that sin is not so much about "oooh you broke a law, now God's gonna get you!" God did not make laws arbitrarily, sin is sin because ( this is if you believe in sin still being active in Humankind)it is harmful ( ? )in some fashion or form.
Death and Sin are (are none exsiting in this new creation that is the Body) interweaved. Death harms ( I think not, Death has been dealt it's death blow forever), so does sinful behaviour.
To sin to our heart's content as if we had license to do so, no longer being under condemnation under The Law, as if Jesus died to give us freedom to have what ever orgy we darn well please...well...It might not condemn us to Death, but it'll certainly harm us, and destroy our peace, joy, and happiness on our pilgrimage here. (I think not again, because Death is dealt with and its effects)
Also if you obey out of "What". Freedom to do what you want is good because we will do what we want anyway, I choose to do good acts. to please self, and my humankind around me that interract with me...)
Jesus didn't die to allow us to be masochistic, he rose again so we would genuinely live. Self-harm ( this is also an oppion of following a rule. in my oppion....)isn't genuinely living, it is...ickiness, for lack of a spiritual word.
God hurts, and grieves when he sees his children hurt. "Jesus wept." is a very powerful verse for a reason.
Hope to not offend....
a new order has began....
Death hasn't been thrown into The Lake of Fire yet.
People still hurt, people still die, there is still decay in the world, we are not yet glorified.
The Kingdom of God is in us right now, but it has not yet been established in the Re-Creation, its time has not yet come. God is not yet All in All.
The fullness of the Gentiles hasn't even come in yet.
Sin is indeed still active...just look at Fred Phelps, Bin Ladin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Myself...etc.
Condemnation, the sentence of Death (Sheol) is no longer active.
Not to offend, but God is not a relativist.
Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 on October 12, 2010, 03:11:39 AM
Sorry, I have to point out a few things I see slanted in your thinks process.
your quotes I hilighted in Green then I will insert my comment.....
Quote from: Lefein on October 12, 2010, 02:51:01 AM
Indeed Thinktank.
We must also remember, that sin is not so much about "oooh you broke a law, now God's gonna get you!" God did not make laws arbitrarily, sin is sin because ( this is if you believe in sin still being active in Humankind)it is harmful ( ? )in some fashion or form.
[Look at the news what more evidence do you need, if sin has been dealt with then it means murder is a normal part of Gods life. What the blood of Christ does is bring us back to God, because before the blood were were strangers to God without hope, but now through the blood we have access to heaven and Gods saving grace, even himself abiding in us through his spirit to overcome sin and temptation.]
Death and Sin are (are none exsiting in this new creation that is the Body) interweaved. Death harms ( I think not, Death has been dealt it's death blow forever), so does sinful behaviour.
[But what we sow we reap, some sow to dishonour and others to honour God will test each mans work to see what he built his life on, sand or stone.]
To sin to our heart's content as if we had license to do so, no longer being under condemnation under The Law, as if Jesus died to give us freedom to have what ever orgy we darn well please...well...It might not condemn us to Death, but it'll certainly harm us, and destroy our peace, joy, and happiness on our pilgrimage here. (I think not again, because Death is dealt with and its effects)
[I think not :winkgrin: otherwise we would have immortal human bodies, but they decay because of sin]
Also if you obey out of "What". Freedom to do what you want is good because we will do what we want anyway, I choose to do good acts. to please self, and my humankind around me that interract with me...)
[ Freedom is what God has given us, you can either sow good seed or bad seed, the cross does not eliminate bad seed from existence, it may cancel its effects, but God is not mocked whatsoever a man sows he shall reap, if you are doing good then you will reap good fruit]
Jesus didn't die to allow us to be masochistic, he rose again so we would genuinely live. Self-harm ( this is also an oppion of following a rule. in my oppion....)isn't genuinely living, it is...ickiness, for lack of a spiritual word.
God hurts, and grieves when he sees his children hurt. "Jesus wept." is a very powerful verse for a reason.
Hope to not offend....
a new order has began....
I have heard that quote from various presidents, prime ministers etc for many years, I wonder what they mean?
Thinktank, I have to go for now but will visit again in a day or two.
In "my world of this new order" Sin dose not exist... Human bodies do rot and die, but that is just human. That is not an end of any human. in the Law people or before Christ did away with the law, those that rotted and died, new nothing, and wont know nothing until the restitution of all things in some other age beyond this age.... When I die, I will be what I am now, apart of all things.... and know all things.
There was a statement made somewhere in this conversation stating that Jesus died so we could sin . . .or he died so as we sin, it's all covered. I feel red flags popping up when I see the tone of the conversation go in this direction because it feels like we're saying that I can live like hell because in the end we're all going to heaven anyway. It feels like we're abusing the purity of the cross.
Should I live according to my fleshly desires, that alone is evidence that I walk in darkness. When we come into the light, yes, I beleive that God no longer sees our sin, yet at the same time, if his light is in us, we should be seeing signs of that by not walking in those dark places anymore as well. Our focus shouldn't be on what we can get away with now, instead, shouldn't it be on our love for the Father for not holding the weaknesses of our fleshly past against us?
It really shouldn't be about doing what I please and how dare you for trying to tell me to stop . . . That's still showing my mind is in control over my heart. If I walk in the spirit, I will choose to walk in His Light rather than in the darkness of my flesh, right? There should be some sort of manifestation of that light illuminating through us into the darkness of the world around us.
Christianity is alot like a marriage.
If your wife/husband told you that he/she'd never leave you, divorce you, or stop loving you no matter what you did...would you go out with a license to cheat on him/her every day? That wouldn't be loving your wife/husband who loves you...that'd be hate, of the worst sort. Because you'd be murdering his/her heart on purpose, knowing that you'll get away with it (or thinking you will, in reality).
Hey, that's not bad!!
It again reveals the true motivation behind people who call themselves Christians. The moment you mention no eternal hell, "that's" the first thing that comes out of their mouth . . ."If there's no hell then I can do anything I want . . ." Which only begs the question "Is THAT the only reason why you chose to be a follwer of Christ?"
Yeah, I like that. Marriage is not a license for either party to sleep around on each other and expect the marriage to be strong. It's not about trying to get away with doing as much filth as I can. It's about living in love with the Father. The removal of hell is like a wedding gift. Fear is truly gone.
:cloud9: That is true. I've always thought that was one of the reasons "they" react the way they do to the no hell idea; it reveals the motive of their heart for serving Him at all, and so once uncovered, out come the fig leaves again. My :2c: Blessings....
It would explain why they get so angry anyway, or defensive. It is a rather puncturing statement.
I think tis only human though to be angry, when one find out that their belief that they have followed for decades is not even true. This is true for most poeple on all beliefs, but especailly a belief such as ET, they would feel such a fool, when they realize their doom and gloom ET sermons are not even true. :2c:
the live like hell issue was started by me ( A new Order HAS begun .
My whole issue was the sin issue.... With out a rule/Law/Commandment to follow there is no braking of that.... i.e. Trangression of Law= SIN....
If you live by the New Law of Christ which IS His life, you are not and Can Never be a follower of any of the 640 Laws in our KJV of the bible or the Millions of ones set up by Christians with good intent.... Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo We Are NOT Sinners...... Law Brakers.........
"The Law is a mirror, Grace makes us look pretty."
The Law still exists, and so does sin, we are however no longer condemned by it unto Death. We can look in the mirror and see Christ's righteousness, rather than our own ugliness.
Without him however, our righteousness is as filthy rags, and will always be so.