Judas better if he had not been born?

[Molly]

What judgment?  Now or in the future?

Both??

sounds like to me--It's different--now and in the future.

In the future, the saints will be real judges with the full power of judges.  The saints will rule and reign with Christ.

Now we are to learn to discern good and evil.   That's why he says, don't judge like a judge with full power of sentencing, punishment now [krino].
[Because you are liable to go overboard.]  When Paul talks about judging among the brethren, it sounds to me more like civil disputes [rather than criminal].

Now, that said, I feel I am able to look at Judas and make a judgment [diakrino] about what he did and whether it is good or evil.

[jabcat]

That's how I understand it as well, Molly.  Being able to resolve disputes among ourselves without turning to "the world" courts for intervention in matters amongst the ecclesia.  I also believe the concept in the scriptures Shadow presented are important as well.  IMO, they speak of an attitude of humility, i.e., knowing we're sinners saved by grace.  Paul said he was the worst of sinners.  So to me, it's a real balancing act now.

However, in the future/next age, I also believe the ecclesia will be given the responsibility of helping bring the rest in - serving as priests, kings, and judges - commissioned and empowered by God.  He will set the parameters. 

To whom much is given, much is required.  By grace are we saved through faith, and that a gift of God.  Not of works lest any man should boast.  So I think there's a place for beating one's chest and asking God to have mercy.  I have to remember the scripture, "let no man think more of himself than he ought".  Day by day it's a refining, learning, growing experience - step by step He leads us.   :2c:

[rosered]

  We are to judge ourselves     who is in the Body of Christ
by the Standard of Gods Word   , what is written for examples  :winkgrin:



For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily,

eateth and drinketh damnation to himself,
   not discerning the Lord's body.
For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you,

and many sleep.
1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves,
we should not be judged. But when we are judged,

we are chastened of the Lord,

that we should not be condemned with the world.

  Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.


Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.
Eze 44:5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.
1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

  the True Church , the Body of Christ is being judged now 
she is being fed  the blood and flesh of CHRIST annointing  to live  have life in her , saved by bearing  holy children  Gods  holoy one

[willieH]

What judgment?  Now or in the future?

Both??

:thumbsup:  Good answer Shadow!

All the "future" amounts to, is...  "NOW" which has yet to manifest within finite progression.  :dontknow:

ALL there actually IS, was or ever "WILL BE"... is NOW. 

This is WHY... "NOW" is the DAY of SALVATION... Paul was not noting that the DAY in which HE LIVED was the only "NOW", in which Salvation would be accessed!  ALL time finds itself encompassed in ..."NOW"...

He was saying that NOW (which is the only EXISTANT time)... is the DAY in which Salvation would be manifest... 

Paul's "NOW" ---> our "NOW" ---> our children's "NOW" ---> their children's "NOW"...  END to BEGINNING.

Until one is able to catch a glimpse of this premise, ones eyes shall remain in finite observation of the Scriptures, which are INFINITE...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Molly]

The world is now in a [default] condemnation because men love the darkness since all their works are evil.



17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

--John 3


Things go on behind the scenes that no one is aware of but that all are affected by.   Secret societies, midnight trials, secret meetings of the very type of plotters who killed Jesus go on to this day.  They make the decisions and the rest go along because they are kept in darkness and all their works are  evil.  Everything is happening in the dark.


13And they cried out again, Crucify him.

14Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.

--Mark 15

[thinktank]

What judgment?  Now or in the future?

Both??

:thumbsup:  Good answer Shadow!

All the "future" amounts to, is...  "NOW" which has yet to manifest within finite progression.  :dontknow:

ALL there actually IS, was or ever "WILL BE"... is NOW. 

This is WHY... "NOW" is the DAY of SALVATION... Paul was not noting that the DAY in which HE LIVED was the only "NOW", in which Salvation would be accessed!  ALL time finds itself encompassed in ..."NOW"...

He was saying that NOW (which is the only EXISTANT time)... is the DAY in which Salvation would be manifest... 

Paul's "NOW" ---> our "NOW" ---> our children's "NOW" ---> their children's "NOW"...  END to BEGINNING.

Until one is able to catch a glimpse of this premise, ones eyes shall remain in finite observation of the Scriptures, which are INFINITE...

...willieH  :cloud9:

I can imagine you singing John Lennons song.

"Imagine there's no religion, no country too"

[willieH]

What judgment?  Now or in the future?

Both??

:thumbsup:  Good answer Shadow!

All the "future" amounts to, is...  "NOW" which has yet to manifest within finite progression.  :dontknow:

ALL there actually IS, was or ever "WILL BE"... is NOW. 

This is WHY... "NOW" is the DAY of SALVATION... Paul was not noting that the DAY in which HE LIVED was the only "NOW", in which Salvation would be accessed!  ALL time finds itself encompassed in ..."NOW"...

He was saying that NOW (which is the only EXISTANT time)... is the DAY in which Salvation would be manifest... 

Paul's "NOW" ---> our "NOW" ---> our children's "NOW" ---> their children's "NOW"...  END to BEGINNING.

Until one is able to catch a glimpse of this premise, ones eyes shall remain in finite observation of the Scriptures, which are INFINITE...

...willieH  :cloud9:

I can imagine you singing John Lennons song.

"Imagine there's no religion, no country too"

:laugh: hmmm.... YOU seem to be pretty well aquainted with the words to this tune, "tank"!  :pointlaugh: 

I'll just consider the source (YOU) on this one...  :laughing7:

Actually the world would be better off if "religion" didn't exist in it... and in the end, "religion" doesn't have a thing to do with the doings of the WORD...

MANY of those who (in the "christian" portion of religion) "come in the name of CHRIST"  shall find these words ringing in their ears (will YOU be counted among them "tank"?):

Matt 7:22-23 -- MANY will say unto Me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? ...and then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU, depart from Me, ...ye that WORK INIQUITY.

so much for ..."religion"...  :sigh:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[thinktank]

MANY of those who (in the "christian" portion of religion) "come in the name of CHRIST"  shall find these words ringing in their ears (will YOU be counted among them "tank"?):
willie

:bigGrin: I hope not, things can change over time though, some people start off well in their Christian walk but sadly lose their way. So my hope is in Christ that he that has began a work in me shall complete till the day of Christ.

[willieH]

MANY of those who (in the "christian" portion of religion) "come in the name of CHRIST"  shall find these words ringing in their ears (will YOU be counted among them "tank"?):
willie

:bigGrin: I hope not, things can change over time though, some people start off well in their Christian walk but sadly lose their way. So my hope is in Christ that he that has began a work in me shall complete till the day of Christ.

God is working ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- which leaves out... NOTHING. 

If you "lose your way", it was decided you would by a higher power than yourself... For CHRIST is the "keeper" of those who do NOT "lose their way" -- Jude 24 -- and the FOREORDINATION of God is the manifestation of that "keeping" -- Eph 2:10

"Think" what you wish, "tank"... it has nothing to do with what WAS, IS or WILL BE... for it is GOD's province to decide ALL THINGS, and their individual manifestations, progressions, and existence, IN CHRIST... as He places them, one by one, below His feet -- 1 Cor 15:25-28

...willieH  :happygrin:

[Molly]

For CHRIST is the "keeper" of those who do NOT "lose their way" -- Jude 24

That is really lovely.


24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

--Jude 1

[thinktank]

MANY of those who (in the "christian" portion of religion) "come in the name of CHRIST"  shall find these words ringing in their ears (will YOU be counted among them "tank"?):
willie

:bigGrin: I hope not, things can change over time though, some people start off well in their Christian walk but sadly lose their way. So my hope is in Christ that he that has began a work in me shall complete till the day of Christ.

God is working ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- which leaves out... NOTHING. 

If you "lose your way", it was decided you would by a higher power than yourself... For CHRIST is the "keeper" of those who do NOT "lose their way" -- Jude 24 -- and the FOREORDINATION of God is the manifestation of that "keeping" -- Eph 2:10

"Think" what you wish, "tank"... it has nothing to do with what WAS, IS or WILL BE... for it is GOD's province to decide ALL THINGS, and their individual manifestations, progressions, and existence, IN CHRIST... as He places them, one by one, below His feet -- 1 Cor 15:25-28

...willieH  :happygrin:

so if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?

[WhiteWings]

so if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?

A shepherd is a keeper of the sheep in the flock. But also goes searching lost sheep. So the shepherd is the keeper of all sheep.
Besides of that the devil doesn't keep anything. He just destroys.

[micah7:9]

so if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?

A shepherd is a keeper of the sheep in the flock. But also goes searching lost sheep. So the shepherd is the keeper of all sheep.
Besides of that the devil doesn't keep anything. He just destroys.

Halleuja!!!! Glory! well said :thumbsup: :happygrin:

[Molly]

Sheep follow the leader.  They are not very bright animals.

So, if there is a wolf in sheep's clothing, they will follow the wolf right over a cliff [or into his den].

The shepherd comes in through the gate, but the thief comes into the sheep pen over the fence.  He is illigitimate, a thief, a liar, a poser, and means to harm and destroy the sheep--a wolf, a predator who eats sheep for breakfast.

But the shepherd will lay down his life for the sheep.

[thinktank]

so if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?

A shepherd is a keeper of the sheep in the flock. But also goes searching lost sheep. So the shepherd is the keeper of all sheep.
Besides of that the devil doesn't keep anything. He just destroys.

I kind of agree, but I have found a scripture which supports the idea that the devil keeps people in the underworld for a season, until it is their time to go home. He keeps them there because he is the accuser of the brethren and like a smart lawyer he uses people's sins against them as a tool to keep them from God.
:2c:

[Molly]

What scripture, TT?

[micah7:9]

so if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?

A shepherd is a keeper of the sheep in the flock. But also goes searching lost sheep. So the shepherd is the keeper of all sheep.
Besides of that the devil doesn't keep anything. He just destroys.

Chapter and verse please


I kind of agree, but I have found a scripture which supports the idea that the devil keeps people in the underworld for a season, until it is their time to go home. He keeps them there because he is the accuser of the brethren and like a smart lawyer he uses people's sins against them as a tool to keep them from God.
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

so if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?

A shepherd is a keeper of the sheep in the flock. But also goes searching lost sheep. So the shepherd is the keeper of all sheep.
Besides of that the devil doesn't keep anything. He just destroys.

Chapter and verse please

Keep => Parable of the lost sheep...
Destroy => The devil misleads people. He makes them lost/stray from the flock. Lost=destroyed (lost/destroyed coin parable)

[Cardinal]

I kind of agree, but I have found a scripture which supports the idea that the devil keeps people in the underworld for a season, until it is their time to go home. He keeps them there because he is the accuser of the brethren and like a smart lawyer he uses people's sins against them as a tool to keep them from God.
:2c:

:cloud9: Waiting..... :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

I think the devil keeps them in a holding ThinkTank :icon_jokercolor:

[Molly]

I think the devil keeps them in a holding ThinkTank :icon_jokercolor:

The project for a new american century.  Yeah.  :icon_joker:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tank...  :winkgrin:

so if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?

CHRIST is the "keeper" of those whom are CHOSEN by GOD, to KNOW ...THE "WAY"...  No one "finds" their "way"... 

They are either dragged to the WORD and the UNVEILED by IT -- John 6:44 -- Matt 11:27 -- (according to the DECLARATION of YHVH, made before ANYTHING took place -- Isaiah 46:10)  ...or they are NOT... in either case it is the WILL of YHVH which envelops ALL in His Creation... DIRECTING their steps according to that WILL... :nod:

There is no "devil" which is sentient, nor has an agenda to "keep" anything.  Only in the minds of those who FEAR (1 John 2:18) is there place set aside for such a myth.

GOD "keeps the way" of those foreordained by the ELECTION of YHVH -- Eph 2:10 -- and neither the manifestation of GOOD or EVIL has to do with that PREDETERMINED, DIVINE decision -- Rom 9:11

Those which appear to "lose" their way, never "found" it to begin with, because they were not CHOSEN (beforehand) to find THE WAY -- Jer 10:23

ALL the steps of ALL MEN are DIRECTED according to the workings of YHVH -- Prov 20:24 -- 16:1, 9 -- When will you get it bro?  What part of YHVH "working" ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- escapes your understanding?

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

I kind of agree, but I have found a scripture which supports the idea that the devil keeps people in the underworld for a season, until it is their time to go home. He keeps them there because he is the accuser of the brethren and like a smart lawyer he uses people's sins against them as a tool to keep them from God.
:2c:

:cloud9: Waiting..... :winkgrin:

:cloud9:  Me waiting too! .....  :winkgrin:  :laughing7:

...willieH  :happy3:

[micah7:9]

Yep waiting :thumbsup:

[Molly]

Satan is called the 'accuser of our brethren."

Revelation 12:10

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


"accuser"

G2725
κατήγορος
katēgoros
kat-ay'-gor-os
From G2596 and G58; against one in the assembly, that is, a complainant at law; specifically Satan: - accuser.


In order to be susceptible to  a 'kategoros,' or a prosecutor, you need to be under law.

Paul tells us this has been true of the brethren--before they were under grace, they were under the law..

22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Galatians 3:23
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.



Jesus sets us free from the law so that we can no longer be accused or imprisoned by Satan.


Psalm 68:18
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.