Mark 14:21 (King James Version)
21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Many Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
On a side note, some Exorcists did an exorcism on a little Girl, and the Demon was "Identified" as Judas Iscariot. Is this just more Satan twisting scriptures, and messing around with popular beliefs?
Yeah, Ok, lets dump on Judas, the big bad wolf that took Jesus by surprise. pathetic.
There's a pretty big discussion on Judas here - http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7703.msg89480#msg89480 - may glean something useful from it.
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 13, 2010, 06:35:24 AM
On a side note, some Exorcists did an exorcism on a little Girl, and the Demon was "Identified" as Judas Iscariot. Is this just more Satan twisting scriptures, and messing around with popular beliefs?
Also, could be man's imagination getting the better of him again...In all the scriptural accounts, I don't think I ever saw anything that would back up their claim. Sometimes demons spoke, but I don't remember them ever being a proper name, per se. Setting aside all the other things I personally believe about him (one of the 12 with thrones, to be or already reconciled/restored etc.) Judas wasn't a demon, anyway. The Master chose him as one of the 12.
TCBMark 14:21 For the Son of Humanity is going away, just as it has been written concerning Him; yet how terrible it is for that human through whome the Son of Humanity is delivered over! It would have been ideal for that human if he hadn't been born.
The red words are clearly about Jesus. Note that those words caps. I think everyone agrees with this part?
But what about the blue/green words? They have no caps so they can never refer to a devine person.
God, Father, Him, Son, HS etc are always written with caps. So the fact that human is written without caps clearly shows it's not a divine human. But I have to add here that using caps is a decision of the translators. Most of the times it's very obvious but this verse seems not that obvious....
The verse 'indentifies' Jesus as "Son of Humanity" and "Him" So why half way during the verse switch "title"
(Son of Humanity is some sort of title imo)
I think it's also clear the blue human (no caps) delivers over the Son of Humanity. Jesus didn't handover Himself.
That leaves the green human (no caps)
First note that in KJV a ! is in the middle of the sentence. In TCB a new sentence starts.
a] No caps -> not divine -> not Jesus
b] The green human is in a second sentence so clearly points to the blue human.
c] "yet how terrible it is for that human" + "It would have been ideal for that human if he hadn't been born." ==> The second part just describes in other words how terrible it is.
Also not that TCB uses 'delivered' instead of 'betrayed'.
Betrayed is clearly something that Jesus didn't approve.
But 'delivered' is a much more difficult word. It can range from something very positive like "deliver a baby" to betrayal. Personally I think Judas acted by orders of Jesus. It may sound weird Jesus was seeking His own death but it was all part of the big plan.
transitive verb
1 : to set free from restraint : set at liberty : release or liberate especially from control : rescue from actual or feared evil : FREE, SAVE *he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul— Ezek 33:5 (Authorized Version)* — often used with from or out of *delivered him from captivity*
2 : GIVE, TRANSFER : yield possession or control of : make or hand over : make delivery of : COMMIT, SURRENDER, RESIGN — often used with up or over, to or into *thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand— Gen 40:13 (Authorized Version)* *the constables have delivered her over— Shakespeare*
3 a : to assist (a parturient female) in giving birth *she was delivered of a fine boy* *the doctor has delivered several thousand women in his long career*; also : to aid in the birth of *sometimes it is necessary to deliver a child with forceps* b : to give birth to *she delivered a pair of healthy twins after a short labor*
4 a : to disburden (as oneself) in words : give forth in words : UTTER, SPEAK, ENUNCIATE *he delivered his speech effectively* b : to make known to another : COMMUNICATE *they delivered their ultimatum to the enemy*
5 : to send (something aimed or guided) to an intended destination *delivering a short uppercut to the jaw* *the frigate delivered a smashing broadside* *the pitcher delivered a curve to the batter*
6 archaic : to unload (as a ship) of cargo : EMPTY
7 : to bring (as votes) to the support of a particular candidate or cause *couldn't deliver the votes of his ward*
intransitive verb
1 : to set one free : DISBURDEN *a deliverance which does not deliver— R.W.Emerson*
2 : UTTER, DISCOURSE *he delivered beautifully but his speech had little real content*; sometimes : to express an opinion or judgment
3 : to give birth to offspring *patients that repeatedly deliver prematurely present special problems*
synonyms see FREE, RESCUE
–deliver a jail : to clear a jail by bringing all the prisoners to trial
–deliver the goods : to give results that are promised, expected, or desired
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 13, 2010, 06:35:24 AMMany Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the
Lamb..."?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 13, 2010, 06:50:09 AM
Yeah, Ok, lets dump on Judas, the big bad wolf that took Jesus by surprise. pathetic.
im not dumping on Judas
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2010, 02:26:39 PM
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 13, 2010, 06:35:24 AMMany Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?
I still go back to Jesus telling the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones...Judas was one of the 12 standing there hearing His voice on that day. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 13, 2010, 03:11:04 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 13, 2010, 06:50:09 AM
Yeah, Ok, lets dump on Judas, the big bad wolf that took Jesus by surprise. pathetic.
im not dumping on Judas
Hopefully he meant the ones which you were describing? :dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2010, 07:47:08 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2010, 02:26:39 PM
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 13, 2010, 06:35:24 AMMany Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?
I still go back to Jesus telling the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones...Judas was one of the 12 standing there hearing His voice on that day. :bigGrin:
So to me, there's more to the story :thumbsup:
KJVMat 19:28 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
=> Did Judas follow Jesus?
=> If not there should have been a 13th listner in the room.
=> But I think that's just trying very hard to read what's not there.
KJVLuk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
=> Same verse is a little different wording
=> If Jesus wanted to exclude someone He would have used other words. Or be more vague like when He said He would be betrayed.
So those verses plus the verse I mention seem to be very clear Judas is also on a throne and not in hell.
I wouldn't be suprised Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas hated that task and that's why he wished He never was born. :2c:
Here's my take on it....After the kiss, pretty much everyone hated him for his actions,Judas knew he would be vilified,how do you explain to everyone that is what had to happen!Peoples dream' s dashed, political motives dashed.Even peoples identities dashed! I totally agree with the text...To put up with all that ridicule it would maybe have been better to be somewhere else.
Judas knew his calling and everything it entailed and was willing to suffer for it as well.!!!
My hat goes off to him! :icon_king:
After the betrayal even Peter acnowledged that Judas lost his seat and they looked to fill it. Just as Abraham and Sarah recieved a promise of child they tried to produce one with Hagar but the promised child still happened.
God promised twelve apostles, with Judas loosing his seat Peter and the rest drew lots to adorne a new apostle, they tried to produce one on thier own, but God being true to His word made Saul/Paul an apostle.
Judas lost his seat and the seat was awarded to Saul/Paul.
I do agree with you Dallas on that one !
you know I even believe it was prophecy being fulfilled ..
its mentioned in the psalms and Jesus says this in John 13 about the betrayal
the part Saul /Paul is in Isaiah a couple of places
it was the Christ / annointing in Paul that would be a Light to the Gentiles /nations
the specific verses found in ..
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Act 26:23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Acts, chapter one, verse twenty six:
"26 And they give lots for them, and the lot falls on Matthias, and he is enumerated with the eleven apostles."
The Lord appointed Matthias, not Paul, to take the place of Judas.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 15, 2010, 05:49:43 PM
Acts, chapter one, verse twenty six:
"26 And they give lots for them, and the lot falls on Matthias, and he is enumerated with the eleven apostles."
The Lord appointed Matthias, not Paul, to take the place of Judas.
Hi David ,
Seems thats what the apostles chose to take the place of Judas
but the Lord chose Saul/ Paul to be the apostle Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle,
not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Act 9:15 But
the Lord said unto him, Go thy way:
for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
24 And praying, they say, "Thou, Lord, Knower of all hearts, indicate one whom Thou choosest,
25 out of these two to take the place of this dispensation and apostleship, from which Judas transgressed, to be gone into his own place."
26 And they give lots for them, and the lot falls on Matthias, and he is enumerated with the eleven apostles.
From what I can tell, it should be written like this:
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for Him if that man had not been born.
Meaning, it would be good for Jesus if Judas had not been born... I don't know. We also have to remember, we're reading a two thousand year old book. Better to not be born meant something different to the people of that time. IIRC, Jeremiah said he cursed the day in which he was born, meaning he wished hadn't been born at the time and position he found himself in.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 15, 2010, 06:12:06 PM
24 And praying, they say, "Thou, Lord, Knower of all hearts, indicate one whom Thou choosest,
25 out of these two to take the place of this dispensation and apostleship, from which Judas transgressed, to be gone into his own place."
26 And they give lots for them, and the lot falls on Matthias, and he is enumerated with the eleven apostles.
Hi David ,
where is Matthias writtings ?????
I see tons of Pauls but not one of Matthias even being mentioned ever again :dontknow: whats is up with that ??
Rosey, this is what Strong has to say about Matthias
3159 Matqi,aj Matthias {mat-thee'-as}
Meaning: Matthias = "gift of God" 1) the apostle elected to fill the place of the traitor Judas
Origin: apparently a shortened form of 3161;; n pr m
Usage: AV - Matthias 2; 2
/edit and Paul
3972 Pau/loj Paulos {pow'-los}
Meaning: Paul or Paulus = "small or little" 1) Paul was the most famous of the apostles and wrote a good part of the NT, the 14 Pauline epistles 2) Paulus was a deputy or pro-consul of Cyprus and is said to be a prudent man, in the management of affairs, as a governor
Origin: of Latin origin;; n pr m
Usage: AV - Paul 163, Paulus (the deputy) 1; 164
Was Judas replaced because of his death, or his deeds.?
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 15, 2010, 07:49:19 PM
Was Judas replaced because of his death, or his deeds.?
Good question. I think because of his death because:
KJVMat 19:28 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus said Judas would be on one of the 12 thrones. Jesus words are facts. So He knew about what Judas was going to do.
Thanks guys apparently Paul was the 13th apostle than :mshock:
I know , no such thing eh heehe hee....
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 07:58:36 PM
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 15, 2010, 07:49:19 PM
Was Judas replaced because of his death, or his deeds.?
Good question. I think because of his death because:
KJVMat 19:28 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus said Judas would be on one of the 12 thrones. Jesus words are facts. So He knew about what Judas was going to do.
So than Did Judas follow Jesus ?
or did he go to his own place , field of blood ?
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
I still don't know Rosey.
a] A first thought its a very bad thing to do things that got Jesus killed.
b] It was also the misson of Jesus to get killed (and live again).
c] Jesus said all 12 who have a throne. And while He said that He surely knew about Judas.
d] What KJV translates are "betrayed" more literal translations write "hand over". While betrayed is a very negative term handed over can mean betray but also like agreed.
e] Plus extra Biblical sources also speak of Jesus ordering Judas to hand Him over. But that kind of sources are not for this forum.
So for me ?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 08:30:36 PM
I still don't know Rosey.
a] A first thought its a very bad thing to do things that got Jesus killed.
b] It was also the misson of Jesus to get killed (and live again).
c] Jesus said all 12 who have a throne. And while He said that He surely knew about Judas.
d] What KJV translates are "betrayed" more literal translations write "hand over". While betrayed is a very negative term handed over can mean betray but also like agreed.
e] Plus extra Biblical sources also speak of Jesus ordering Judas to hand Him over. But that kind of sources are not for this forum.
So for me ?
Thanks Tony for your openess and willing to talk on these things
I do appreciate that of you
I have mixed views on this myself
I do know when Jesus was praying for the twelve disciples /students
to His Father in John 17 there is mention of Judas being called the son of perdition / loss
for me that was loosing his place in the ministry and loss/ruin /destruction of life that scripture might be fulfilled
thats the part thats mysterious to us ''that scripture might be fulfilled ''
seems as a ''have to'' case , does it not ?
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the
son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
the strange part also is that this other place speaks of the same ''son of perditon '' that betrays the Christ / annointing in you also :JCThink:
hummmm ? there it is .. .
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
......imo....Judas just portrayed the son of perdition..that goes
into everlasting cutting off.or the adversary which lost his
position.[dominion]..such as sin entered through one man [First
Adam]
a creepy role to play.[one of you is a devil].ordained by God..in order tht the scripture be fufilled.
there were 13...Jesus and His disciples[12] a 'throne' for
each 'tribe' of Israel[patriarchs].Jesus could be portraying Father[on His throne]
...could be...Matthais to fill the 12..to Israel....and
Saul/Paul.....to go to Gentiles[one borne
out of season] there is a time and purpose for everything
under heaven...a time to live and a time to die.
a persecutor of the body of Christ[put it to death]
'CHANGED" into him who suffers for His name's sake
the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world..so
evidently the prince of this world slew the Lamb....and God
showed forth that which took place in the invisible...there..
to be visible to all.
Thanks Shelia :icon_flower:
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
I want to throw this verse into the mix.
KJV1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
I=Paul/Saul
He's saved but was the worst sinner of all. That would mean worse than Judas. Paul gets his throne and the lesser sinner Judas eternal torture....?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 10:27:42 PM
I want to throw this verse into the mix.
KJV1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
I=Paul/Saul
He's saved but was the worst sinner of all. That would mean worse than Judas. Paul gets his throne and the lesser sinner Judas eternal torture....?
Judas name will probably be changed and written in the Lambs book of Life like Saul / Pauls was ?
I have my question by that verse. It perhaps comes a bit to close to critising scripture but her it goes...
Should that verse be taken seriously? Or is Paul just humbling himself. Ok he wasn't be best of men before conversion. But there was a great deal of cruelty at that time. For example the soldiers that did beat Jesus to pulp and mocked Him at the cross.
Plus Paul says AM prensent tense. Not WAS. I believe Paul at that time still had his flaws. But was he really worse a sinner than those Romans that tortured for fun and worship 8 different gods?
:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
willieH: Hi James... :hithere:
YOU speak the TRUTH:
Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2010, 07:47:08 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2010, 02:26:39 PM
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 13, 2010, 06:35:24 AMMany Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?
I still go back to Jesus telling the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones...Judas was one of the 12 standing there hearing His voice on that day. :bigGrin:
EXACTLY bro James... without the "betrayal" of JUDAS... none of us would have SALVATION.
His "BETRAYAL" was a PIVOTAL part of the COMPLETED WORK... FOREORDAINED to be
so (from eternity), ...
before (in time), it was DONE --
Rev 13:8 :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: willieH on March 15, 2010, 10:57:45 PM
willieH: Hi James... :hithere:
YOU speak the TRUTH:
Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2010, 07:47:08 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2010, 02:26:39 PM
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 13, 2010, 06:35:24 AMMany Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?
I still go back to Jesus telling the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones...Judas was one of the 12 standing there hearing His voice on that day. :bigGrin:
EXACTLY bro James... without the "betrayal" of JUDAS... none of us would have SALVATION.
His "BETRAYAL" was a PIVOTAL part of the COMPLETED WORK... FOREORDAINED to be so (from eternity), ...before (in time), it was DONE -- Rev 13:8 :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup: I kind'a see Judas being "replaced" either by lot cast by man (similar to the current system of voting in denominations today in their "business meetings"?) - and though Paul was an apostle, he was NOT one of the original 12 (who Jesus calls according to an ultra literal translation, His "dispatched envoys" - including Judas). Jesus said some incredible things to the 12, about their being given to know the secrets of the kingdom, etc. Many things. I never saw anyplace where Jesus turned aside and whispered ("everyone except Judas, that is") :laughing7:. I believe Judas served his purpose, Paul served his. :2c:
I also like WW's point about the names on the foundation being a great honor. That's cool. I certainly could be wrong/missing something, but again, who was hearing Jesus' words to the 12 when He said them? Paul, Matthias, or Judas?
In the OT, there were 12 tribes, the tribe of Dan ( the judgment ) was cut out of their inheritance and replaced by the Levites ( priests ) who had none of their own.
In the NT, Judas ( who brought judgment upon Jesus; whose name means praise, but not of the Lord but of the judgment of the brethren) was replaced by Matthias
( whose name is the same as Matthew means Gift of God ) and the (2) witness of the salvation of Christ as something that we can not earn.
:Sparkletooth: It's an interesting, complicated topic, huh David? Interesting. :scratchhead:
Amen James.
But, The Lord does follow basic principles within the Scriptures, that are, once breathed in, easier to understand.
His written Word is amazing, His living Word is unfathomable.
Agreed - breathing in a little at a time it seems.
Another thought on this:
KJVLuk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
=> The result of that is clear.
KJVLuk 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
a] Did satan tried to enter Simon before or after he successfully entered Judas?
b] What was the reason satan wanted to enter Simon? Is it related to the betrayal?
c] Why did Jesus block satan from entering Simon but not for Judas?
willieH: Hi Beloved... :hithere:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 16, 2010, 01:22:23 AM
In the OT, there were 12 tribes, the tribe of Dan ( the judgment ) was cut out of their inheritance and replaced by the Levites ( priests ) who had none of their own.
In the NT, Judas ( who brought judgment upon Jesus; whose name means praise, but not of the Lord but of the judgment of the brethren) was replaced by Matthias
( whose name is the same as Matthew means Gift of God ) and the (2) witness of the salvation of Christ as something that we can not earn.
Just, ....Way cool bro... :cloud9:
Only goes to show the continuing and eternal amazement of GOD and His
WORD... :boogie:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
QuoteEXACTLY bro James... without the "betrayal" of JUDAS... none of us would have SALVATION.
His "BETRAYAL" was a PIVOTAL part of the COMPLETED WORK... FOREORDAINED to be so (from eternity), ...before (in time), it was DONE -- Rev 13:8
Guess it's time for us all now to talk about how awesome and Godly and reverant and righteous Pharaoh was, I mean He did exactally what God wanted.
The betrayer was exposed in prophecy so was the the fact that his position was to be lost and given to another. Both by prophecy, and it was Jesus himself who ordained Paul not the men in the upper room.
Judas was a replay of Pharaoh, as Paul explained, the Potter made some vessles for honorable use and dishonorable use.
The office of the 12 however is not being filled by the dishonorable vessle.
as for the betrayer lost his position,and it was given unto
another...there is a theme that runs through-out the
scriptures,like a golden thread[or scarlet].
First we have Adam given dominion..the to loose it..next we
have angels fallen from their first estate..and loosing their
positions in Heaven. Then we have Saul loosing his position to
David..on and on unto the promised seed to whom it is given.
Israel loosing it's position as a nation peculiar unto God..
Basically...it is the one born from above..that inherits...
and he that is from below that looses out...however we see
Jacob/supplanter name change to Israel/Prince of God..through
this promised seed. Showing that the corruptible does not
inherit the Kingdom...but must put on incorruption to inherit.
OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IN MANY DIFFERENT
SCENARIO'S AND EXAMPLES, HE DECLARES THIS TRUTH.
:thumbsup:
wow ! great perception Shelia ! Praise God !
willieH: Hi Brother Dallas... :Sparkletooth:
With all due respect, I hope I am able to convey to you an observation that appears to elude you...
Quote from: willieHEXACTLY bro James... without the "betrayal" of JUDAS... none of us would have SALVATION.
His "BETRAYAL" was a PIVOTAL part of the COMPLETED WORK... FOREORDAINED to be so (from eternity), ...before (in time), it was DONE -- Rev 13:8
Quote from: Dallas on March 17, 2010, 01:48:03 AMGuess it's time for us all now to talk about how awesome and Godly and reverant and righteous Pharaoh was, I mean He did exactally what God wanted.
I don't know how to more effectively explain it other than this... In a nutshell:
Pharaoh was not "Godly nor reverent, nor righteous" (and the Scriptures do not mention that he was, nor that these things were intended within his experience) but, in his own way, ...he WAS definitely ...AWESOME...
For, ...Pharaoh did EXACTLY as God wanted (and ordained) him to do (and DECLARED "his doings" as
part of those things that "were not done" --
Isaiah 46:10), which fall WITHIN the (living) KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, as is
KNOWN in the Heart of
YHVH God...
Pharoah / Egypt are the LIVING picture of SIN as it holds the PEOPLE of GOD in its DEATH grip, UNDELIVERED (which is everyone -- for ALL have sinned)... WITHOUT its [sins] presence... GOOD cannot "deliver"
from EVIL --
Luke 11:4Quote from: Dallas on March 17, 2010, 01:48:03 AMThe betrayer was exposed in prophecy so was the the fact that his position was to be lost and given to another. Both by prophecy, and it was Jesus himself who ordained Paul not the men in the upper room.
As far as the "Apostolic office/gifting" [
Eph 4:11] ...it is given according to God's appointment... there is NO Biblical statement which LIMITS the number that can or will be called APOSTLES... however... as James [Jabcat] has already noted... JUDAS was amongst those hearing the announcement of the TWELVE [one of which was Judas] which were FOUNDATIONAL... Apostles...
The TWELVE were CHOSEN [
Matt 20:14 -- John 6:70] by the
WORD... and the
WORD does NOT CHANGE --
Heb 13:8 -- neither has VARIANCE in
IT --
James 1:17So when something [ANYTHING] is "
CHOSEN" by the
WORD... it remains FOREVER -- "
CHOSEN" -- :dontknow:
All that is displayed is that JUDAS would experience his DEATH [as a sinful being which has BETRAYED God -- and name even ONE which has not fallen into this category?] -- Which resulted in a PERSONAL depth of SORROW, unmatched in history by ANY other human being. For JUDAS KNEW that it was his betrayal of
CHRIST which brought death to the Savior...
The "picture" of JUDAS is the "picture" of us ALL, bro Dallas...
We are ALL "JUDAS", my friend... (betrayers of
CHRIST)
For it is within our recognition that indeed, it was OUR SIN [as individuals], which caused the DEATH of
CHRIST, that [individual]
deliverance from it, occurs. :nod:
Concerning his [JUDAS'] doings, ...instead of getting a "lynch mob" together...
We should be:
(1) THANKFUL, for without JUDAS (or another like him), the plan to SAVE US, ...comes up empty...
(2) UNJUDGMENTAL of him for we are so instructed --
Matt 7:1(3) SYMPATHETIC toward him, for he was ORDAINED to do what he did and SUFFERED in a way that you and I cannot even imagine.
(4) recognizing that in JUDAS, is found the embodiement of us all... (betrayal of the SAVIOR.)
Quote from: Dallas on March 17, 2010, 01:48:03 AMJudas was a replay of Pharaoh, as Paul explained, the Potter made some vessles for honorable use and dishonorable use.
JUDAS is NOT "a replay of Pharaoh"... Pharaoh did not betray GOD, he was positioned as the one IMPRISONING the People of GOD... BY GOD --
Rom 9:17 -- Rom 13:1-2Judas is not mentioned in this way other than by YOU, bro... so all that remains concerning this statement is the assumption that your assumption is so. :sigh:
Quote from: Dallas on March 17, 2010, 01:48:03 AMThe office of the 12 however is not being filled by the dishonorable vessle.
ALL MEN are in part, "dishonorable vessels" bro Dallas:
Rom 3:9-12 -- Psalm 14:1-3 --
What then? are WE better than THEY? No, ...IN NO WISE... for WE have PROVED both JEWS and GENTILES [which includes everyone], that they are, ...ALL under SIN ---
AS IT IS WRITTEN -- there is NONE righteous, NO NOT ONE... there is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after GOD, they are ALL gone out of the WAY [see John 14:6], they are TOGETHER become unprofittable; there is NONE that DOETH GOOD, ...NO, ...NOT, ...ONE -- which includes you and I, the Apostle JUDAS ...
AND... the Apostle Paul -- :dontknow:
:Peace:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Hello Will;
You are completely ignoring a well established understanding of biblical context. The number 12 is the representation of Hebrew government. There are twelve tribes of Israel, that have 12 judges who judge them. This structure was lost to the Hebrew people through their continual falling away from God. At the time when Jesus arrived there was no Hebrew governmental structure other than the religous.
Jesus chose twelve apostles because of the restucturing of the need for the twelve tribes, one to judge each. So much so that Jesus even said that they (the twelve) would judge the twelve tribes. This office of judge was the office Judas lost his position from.
I realize that you will take more scripture out of context and use it to prove an idea you have, so there is no need for me to respond after this. People need to keep the whole bible in mind when claiming such things.
I am not condeming nor did I ever suggest Judas recive punishment, I just stated what the scripture recorded.
Judas betrayed Jesus, comitted suicide, lost his office, both of which were prophesied, and likewise to fulfill prophecy his office as judge was given to another.
There is no need for a thirteenth judge/apostle, there are only twelve tribes....
I still do not understand why the scripture says it would be better if Judas had not been born.
Sorry for the copy and pastes...I am editing them for length and relevance...hope they help.
Part of an article entitled "Judas - In Heaven or Hell?" by Gary Amirault. Maybe it will help some with this difficult topic.
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew3/D3-JudasIscariot.html
Scriptures pertaining to Judas
John 13:21-31
Matt 26:45-50
John 18:2-9
(INTERESTING EXCERPT FROM THESE PASSAGES -
6 When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Again he asked them, "Who is it you want?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth."
8 "I told you that I am he," Jesus answered. "If you are looking for me, then let these men go."
9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me.")
Matt 27:3-10
Acts 1:15-26
Historical, Cultural, and Geographical Material
The 30 pieces of silver was a small sum of money, the value of a slave. (Ex 21:32) If Judas were really covetous and greedy, why didn't he barter for much more?
Jesus chose Judas, not the other way around.
Jesus knew them before He picked them.
Prior to the betrayal, Judas' only recorded sin was stealing from the money box. The other 11 apostles had accounts recorded of them of sins which included unbelief, lust for position and power, not being mindful of the things of the spirit but of man, all the disciples left Him, Peter denied Him 3 times in one night, falsely condemning people to fire when Jesus said He came to save, etc., etc..
Judas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the ground in the "naos"(Holy Place) part of the temple. Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important. Judas repented and declared Jesus innocent and confessed his sin.
All these things happened to fulfill prophesy that the Creator planned to be fulfilled at this time.
Many in the 2nd and 3rd century taught Judas hung himself to get to Hades ahead of Jesus and meet Him there because he knew He (Jesus) had entered His Kingdom through death. (Origin, Theophanes, Theophylact, etc.)
Judas was called "friend" (hetairos) by Jesus. A word for friend indicating partnership, comrade, companion as opposed to "philos" indicating endearment. In other words, there was a partnership of some sort involved in this "betrayal."
Matthew 24:24 in the King James Bible reads, "It had been better for that man, if he had not been born." In the KJV and its sisters "that man" refers to Judas. But other translations disagree or present another possibility. The Revised Version of 1881 and the American Standard Version of 1901 put in the margin "Gr. for him if that man." In other words it would have been good for Jesus if Judas had not been born. Martin Luther's translation, Rotherham's, Douay, Wiclif's, Tyndale's, Concordant, and many others read the same way. Rotherham has it, "well would it have been for him, if that man had not been born." Well would it have been for Jesus if that man (Judas) had not been born.
Putting It All Together
(MT 16:21)
(MT 16:22,23)
Please note that the text does not say "Satan entered him" as with Judas. Jesus directly called him "Satan," which means adversary. Peter was unwilling for the dark side of the Word to be fulfilled. Death must precede life. Peter was not "mindful of the things of God." Trying to be the nice guy and saving Jesus' life was not the will of the Father. Jesus being betrayed, becoming the Lamb slain, being valued at 30 pieces of silver, and the purchase of the "field of blood" was "being mindful of the things of God."
Please get this one point. Peter was directly called "Satan." Satan had to enter Judas in order for him to fulfill the Scriptures. In other words, Judas was not capable of betraying Jesus by himself! He had to be taken over. Peter did not need the help of Satan to not be mindful of the things of God. It was perfectly natural for him. When Satan wanted to "sift" Peter, Jesus prayed for "Satan" Peter. Why didn't Jesus just pray for Judas? Because Judas had to do what he did to fulfill Scripture that the redemption of the whole world from its bondage to sin might be accomplished! Judas was not a hearer only, as Peter was, but a "doer of the word." Not only was he a doer, but Jesus hastened Judas along to get it done. "What you are doing, do more quickly." (John 13:27) Judas fulfilled his purpose for being born, and when we get to that grand banquet, he will have "returned to his own place." (Acts 1:25)
The Creator of the Universe has bound Himself to keeping His own Laws. The Jews saw about 613 laws in the Mosaic system. In the days ahead, we will see these laws with completely new light.
As I mentioned, our Father and His Son are not hypocrites. They live by the laws They set. Under the Mosaic Law, an owner of land and animals is responsible for what happens on that land. If he digs a pit and doesn't cover it and a neighbor's animal falls into it and dies, the owner of the pit is liable. If someone builds a house with a roof and doesn't put up a railing and someone falls off, you must flee to a city of refuge until the death of the High Priest.
The following Sciptures may not seem to fit this article, but they are very important. I cannot go into full explanation of all of this because it would take too much space. I hope the gaps will cause you to study this out for yourselves.
[9] Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled, saying, "AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel;
[10] AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER'S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME."
The Creator of the Universe must abide by His own Laws. He created Adam, placed him in a place where he could be deceived by a Serpent which the Creator also created. Adam and all his offspring fell into a pit and all died. In Adam all died, including you. According to the Mosaic Law, the Creator was responsible for Adam's death and must make restitution. Satan has deceived mankind time and time again. According to the Law, the owner of a beast that has been known to gore in the past, must die along with the beast. However, if a ransom price has been placed upon that man, he may be redeemed. The value the Priest of Israel placed upon Jesus was 30 pieces of silver, which Judas put into the temple. Lawfully, Jesus, who the Father gave all things to, and who all things are of, to, and through (Rom.11:36), must die because of allowing Satan to kill Adam and his offspring, but Jesus was redeemed with the 30 pieces of silver. Not only that, but the 30 pieces of silver purchased the Potter's field, which became the "Field of Blood," which became a proper burial place in the land of Israel for foreigner, gentiles, that is non-Israelites. This "field of blood" was located in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, known as "Gehenna" to the Greeks and better known as "hell" in many misleading Bible translations including the King James Bible. For those of you who want to translate Gehenna as "hell," you should know that Judas purchased that field called "hell" which the Potter's field is in. I tell you now that the Great Potter of the Universe is taking those broken pieces thrown into that pit as called worthless by most of the church, and He is remaking them, all of them, just like He is remaking you. He is also remaking those miriads of vessels buried in the "dump of humanity" and they will come forth glorious.
Our Father and His Son will take complete responsibility for all the unjustices that have ever been committed on the planet earth, whether they be from Satan, Adam, bulls or goats, or you and me. He created us and He will restore, correct, balance, make good, reconcile, redeem, etc., etc., until every tear that has ever been shed in this world of sin is wiped away and every person who has been hurt, marred, or killed will be restored until the glory of the latter house be much greater than the glory of the former house.
One day, the true story of Adam will be told and we will see that our Father wasn't as stupid, or calloused, or powerless as the modern church makes Him out to be in the "Great Fall of Adam Story." No, our Father allowed Adam to "fall" for very good reasons, much better reasons than we have been taught in the past. What we have just looked at, we have just skimmed. We will have to put meat on these bones another time. For now, I hope your appetite has been wet for further light on the above.
Conclusion
...Another example is found where Mark says, "Now His betrayer had given them a signal, saying, "Whomever I kiss, He is the One; seize Him and lead Him away safely." (Notice the word "safely") "And as soon as He had come, immediately he went up to Him and said to Him, 'Rabbi, Rabbi!' and kissed Him." (Mark 14:44,45) John gives a different account. "Then Judas, having received a detachment of troops, and officers from the chief priest and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, 'whom do you seek?' They answered Him, 'Jesus of Nazareth.' Jesus said to them 'I am He.' And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Now when He said to them, 'I am He,' they drew back and fell to the ground." (John 18:3-6) Mark has Judas immediately kiss Jesus to identify Him and John has Jesus come forward to declare Himself as the "I Am" and knocked them all down. I think with that kind of introduction, they knew who He was. No need for a Judas kiss after that happened twice. Quite a different story between the two.
To summarize, be careful where you place Judas. He did the will of the Father and fulfilled the Scriptures. Peter, who we all love, tried to prevent Jesus' crucifixion and was called "Satan" by our Lord. Peter, who was not mindful of the will of God, was restored. Was it not Jesus who said, ""For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." (Matthew 12:50) Be careful about placing Jesus's brother, Judas, in Christendom's "hell." One day you may have to look up to Judas, instead of looking down on him. Peter denied him three times in one night while Judas declared Jesus innocent in front of the High Priesthood. Judas had a very important job in the Kingdom of God. For three and one half years, as a Priest he inspected the Lamb of God as an unbiased man. He was not "one of them" a Galilean. He was the outsider. He did his job perfectly. If Judas really wanted to mess things up, he could have agreed with the High Priesthood and called Him a "blasphemer" who claimed to be the Son of God when He really wasn't. But Judas declared the Lamb spotless and unblemished, the Perfect Passover. You may not like how Judas got that money, but you should rejoice in what it did for you.
What About Judas? http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com/Judas.html
In some English Bibles, Jesus appears to be speaking of Judas in Matt. 26:24.
The King James Version reads "It had been better for that man if he had not been born," but earlier translations (such as Wiclif's and Tyndale's) read "It would have been better for Him (our Lord in His humanity) if that man had not been born." Even Martin Luther's German translation reads this way, because this is the reading suported by the sentence structure of the original Greek Text (as F.W. Farar observed over a century ago--see "Mercy and Jugment," pgs. 458-459.).
Young's Literal New Testament reads as follows:
the Son of Man doth indeed go as it hath been written concerning Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered up! Good were it for Him if that man had not been born.
Even if the more popular translations are correct, this verse is no proof of eternal torment, because life does not begin at birth. When the virgin Mary visited the mother of John the Baptist, he lept in his mother's womb (Luke 1:41.) This was three months before his birth, and not all souls are born. Some die in the womb, and some are aborted, but those who are born have opportunities and responibilities the others do not. As our Lord said:
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more (Luke 12:48.)
It may have been better for Judas if he had not been born--he would certainly have had less to answer for when the books are opened if he not been born at that time and place--but it does not follow that it would have been better for him if he had never existed.
Not if life begins at conception, as most Christians believe.
I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, but I see no reason why this statement must imply that he'll be tormented forever.
Jesus said:
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me (John 12:32.)
Good posts James :thumbsup:
But this quoute/conclusion seems to contradict it:
QuoteIt may have been better for Judas if he had not been born--he would certainly have had less to answer for when the books are opened if he not been born at that time and place--but it does not follow that it would have been better for him if he had never existed.
If Judas followed the commands of Jesus to the letter what has Judas to answer for?
I don't see how following commands of Jesus can ever put you in a bad place....
Quote from: sheila on March 17, 2010, 03:50:07 PM
as for the betrayer lost his position,and it was given unto
another...there is a theme that runs through-out the
scriptures,like a golden thread[or scarlet].
First we have Adam given dominion..the to loose it..next we
But did God say you have everlasting dominion?
But Jesus said to the 12 that they would sit on 12 thrones. Jesus also spoke those words to Judas. If Judas is replaced then he will never sit on the throne; and Jesus would be wrong...
So either Judas will sit on the throne and his replacement not.
Or the verse should be read another way.
KJVMat 19:28 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJVLuk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Twelve apostles judge twelve tribes. I assume each apostle judges 1 tribe.
Is the apostle that judges that tribe member of the tribe?
If yes and the none of the apostles is from the tribe of Levi as Judas was then that's proof Judas didn't lose his throne.
Does someone have a list of tribes the apostles belong to?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 18, 2010, 01:45:25 PM
Twelve apostles judge twelve tribes. I assume each apostle judges 1 tribe.
Is the apostle that judges that tribe member of the tribe?
If yes and the none of the apostles is from the tribe of Levi as Judas was then that's proof Judas didn't lose his throne.
Does someone have a list of tribes the apostles belong to?
YA know I looked it up on the net and you did too eh?
seems those are not so much the point as they all come out of God and are back into God by Jesus Christ/ living Word ,
that name that no other can have Life in them to even judge ...
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that
believing ye might have life through his name. Peter is given this kingdom sounds like all the thones he sits on in Christ as the WHOLE ? just another thought ...
Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table
in my kingdom, and
sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Quote from: rosered on March 18, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 18, 2010, 01:45:25 PM
Twelve apostles judge twelve tribes. I assume each apostle judges 1 tribe.
Is the apostle that judges that tribe member of the tribe?
If yes and the none of the apostles is from the tribe of Levi as Judas was then that's proof Judas didn't lose his throne.
Does someone have a list of tribes the apostles belong to?
YA know I looked it up on the net and you did too eh?
Nope. Luke 22:30, Rev 21:12-14
QuotePeter is given this kingdom sounds like all the thones he sits on in Christ as the WHOLE ? just another thought ...
12 is mentioned repeatingly so I think it's (still) separate.
Those 12 judges can work as a team or they can each judge one tribe.
Still waiting for my list :laughing7:
ok gotcha! :icon_flower:
12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
I still dont think Judas is among them Though :msealed:
JMO! ...
dont you think them sitting on the thrones determins how one could enter in the gates of the City
they are judging with Christ Jesus / Lamb of God
because in Luke 22 we see how the Lord said all serve each other equally and the same ...
this goes into explaining the course ...
20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
22And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
23And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
24And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger/ last or least ; and he that is chief/ first , as he that doth serve.
Saul asked /Paul small /least was chief/ first of sinners , so he serves the Lord well now ! no mention of Judas except his death and being replaced in the ministry
27For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Quote from: rosered on March 18, 2010, 06:33:03 PM
I still dont think Judas is among them Though :msealed:
JMO! ...
dont you think them sitting on the thrones determins how one could enter in the gates of the City
they are judging with Christ Jesus / Lamb of God
It may depend on how they enter the gates of the city. Then my question is how did Judas enter the gates?
Judas handed over Jesus - Fact.
Jesus died because of that - Fact.
Is it a bad thing? - Depends....
If Judas really betrayed Jesus then that's a bad thing.
But what if Judas did follow orders from Master Jesus? Does that make Judas a betrayer of the King or a servant of the King? Following instructions of Jesus is always lawful. So never a sin.
That's my opinion.
But it doesn't bring me any closer to main question. Is Judas a betrayer or a servant?
That's why I asked for the list.
There are 12 tribes. Now assume the bloodlines of the 12 apostles all trace back to a different one of those 12 tribes.
(all 12 are from different tribes)
That of Judas traces back to Levi.
If the bloodline of the replacement of Judas traces back to Levi that man can be a judge.
But if it traces back to another tribe it would mean there in no Levite judge.
And that "proves" the replacement only replaces Judas on earth but not on the throne.
Quote26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger/ last or least ; and he that is chief/ first , as he that doth serve.
Saul asked /Paul small /least was chief/ first of sinners , so he serves the Lord well now ! no mention of Judas except his death and being replaced in the ministry
Paul said that after the death of Judas. Imagine you are one of the 12. What would you concider the worst sin?
Stealing. Killing Christians, ...., .... or killing Jesus.
I would guess the answer is "killing Jesus"
But still Paul feels he's the biggest sinner. Is he just humbling himself. Or doesn't he consider Judas because he knew Judas was following orders?
For many of you it may be very clear and obvious. For me it's not. I haven't seen a single explanation or verse that proves things for me.
I've seen little pieces supporting both sides. But not enough for me. That's why I ask for a list.
Still no proof but again that tiny bit extra to come to a solid conclusion.
Right now, unlike most of you I think, I mildly edge towards that Judas followed strickt orders and will sit on the throne (because of that).
I don't rule it out either, Tony. And whether he's on one of the 12 thrones or not, Jesus still He would draw (drag) ALL men to Him. So either way, Judas is/will be forgiven and part of the kingdom. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2010, 07:26:22 PM
I don't rule it out either, Tony. And whether he's on one of the 12 thrones or not, Jesus still He would draw (drag) ALL men to Him. So either way, Judas is/will be forgiven and part of the kingdom. :2c:
The article you quoted from also mentions Judas was a better apostle than Peter.
I got the answer to my list question....
KJVMat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
KJVMat 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
Brothers are obviously from the same tribe so it's impossible the twelve are from 12 different tribes....
Another idea shot out of the sky :laughing7:
Hi Tony
glad you saw that :thumbsup:
and I only agree with what is written in Scriptures , that is why I use so many scriptures to back up anything posted , letting them speak
I cannot go beyond that or whats written or known :mblush:
God forbid we twist the scriptures or add to them or take away from them
I just fear the Lord thats all , but in a good way ,its a healthy fear and reverance for the Lords Word :thumbsup:
and this is the very scriptures that make me aware or God conscience
and consider it a warning :mshock:
Rev 22:18 ¶ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
willieH: Hi UC... :happygrin:
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 18, 2010, 05:18:46 AM
I still do not understand why the scripture says it would be better if Judas had not been born.
It does
NOT say this... this is what YOU understand it to say...
This text is much like the one in which
JESUS spoke about being "in PARADISE", to the thief... and like that passage, this one appears to be just as MISUNDERSTOOD...
JESUS told the thief that HE WOULD be in paradise, and that announcement came upon the day of their deaths, however NEITHER of them would be IN PARADISE on THAT DAY...
JESUS had yet to spend his own prophesied, 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.
Though I am not entirely convinced, the following makes the most sense...
The text in question follows, and keep in mind that the references very possibly meant (where I have place brackets):
Mark 14:21 --
The Son of man indeed goeth as it is written of Him! but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! [JUDAS] good were it for that man [JESUS] if he [JUDAS] had never been born....
Why would GOD declare such a fate for JUDAS? What reason is found in this particular man which was NECESSARY for the plan to be realized, that GOD should CONDEMN Judas for doing what was NECESSARY? That is UNREASONABLE...
What makes sense, is that had JUDAS never been born, it would've been better for
JESUS...
The preceeding words note that
JESUS must go forth and DO that which was WRITTEN of Him --
"the Son of man indeed GOETH as IT IS WRITTEN of HIM" -- which was NOT a
desireable pathway at all... But the great FAITH of
CHRIST, carried Him forth faithfully to what was WRITTEN of Him... forsaking His own feelings which the words contained in saying
"good were it for that man [JESUS/Son of man], that he [JUDAS] had never been BORN"... (to BETRAY Him)... :dontknow:
JESUS knew well before the betrayal, his pathway which CONTAINED the BETRAYAL, ...
and HIS
DEATH, and had expressed it elsewhere, well
PRIOR to the betrayal --
Matt 16:21-23 -- and was certainly NOT looking forward to the experience, as He asked IF POSSIBLE for the "cup to pass" --
Matt 26:39 -- right after this verse --
Matt 26:24 -- under discussion concerning JUDAS... :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote21"For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
The context is, the whom woe will come upon is the betrayer. Seriously, it is straight forward, and if you need to twist that to fit your wholy ideology you are the one having difficulty with the scriptures not others.
Now it says woe to the betrayer that woe really doesn;t mean anything then? So likewise when revelation says woe that also doens't really mean woe but more like, kinda unfourtunate.
Revelation 8:13 "Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"
Revelation 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."
There is a calamity that befalls Judas, that is an internal calamity, ripping at his soul, as he fights within himself for peace at what he had done. That man who betrayed Jesus now must turn to Jesus and accept Jesus' inclusion.... not going to be an easy thing to face....almost as though it would be better for him not to have been born. So much so that man was destryoed within himself he killed himself. Surely Judas was included into the cross, just try to convince him of that.
If my daughter tries to sneak to toy to school it's hard for her to acknowledge it because of shame, a full-grown man who got fired has a very hard time telling people because of shame (suicide rate from it), so how easy is it going to be for Judas who betrayed GOD to turn to Him and acknowledge it? Imagine the shame that he carries about it, it was so much he did kill himself.
willieH: Hi brother D... :cloud9:
Quote from: Dallas on March 17, 2010, 08:07:21 PM
Hello Will;
You are completely ignoring a well established understanding of biblical context. The number 12 is the representation of Hebrew government. There are twelve tribes of Israel, that have 12 judges who judge them. This structure was lost to the Hebrew people through their continual falling away from God. At the time when Jesus arrived there was no Hebrew governmental structure other than the religous.
Jesus chose twelve apostles because of the [1] restucturing of the need for the twelve tribes, one to judge each. So much so that Jesus even said that they (the twelve) would judge the twelve tribes. [2] This office of judge was the office Judas lost his position from.
You have posted ZERO Scriptural support for these two contentions above (1)
JESUS was about a "restructuring" (2) that JUDAS
lost the "office of judge"...
This again is just an
opinion, one belonging to you... for which you posted no Biblical references to support it... :dontknow:
JESUS did not say that He was "RESTRUCTURING" anything.
GRACE does not operate in the same sense as does the NATURAL... for it is FREE from it... THAT is WHY, when the Pharisees took their "LAW" to Him and questioned His behavior by comparing IT to
CHRIST, ...then [failingly] assaulted Him with IT's [the "law's"] CONDEMNATIONS. :thumbdown:
Quote from: Dallas on March 17, 2010, 08:07:21 PMI realize that you will take more scripture out of context and use it to prove an idea you have, so there is no need for me to respond after this. People need to keep the whole bible in mind when claiming such things.
:Yeahright: --- in quickly slipping out the back door, be careful not to let it bruise your behind! :laughhand:
Sorry bro, but did you have to go to school to learn how to arrange such a "cop out", or is it just a NATURAL talent? :laughing7: (just pullin' your leg a bit, bro! :wink1:)
I haven't taken ANY Scripture out of context... and btw... you conveniently have failed to name those which you contend that I have... :thumbdown:
No offense bro, ...but your argument is based upon your opinion, not upon the Scriptures... Which happens to be
WHY you have not named any to support your contentions, and which is
WHY you fail to note where I have violated
CONTEXT, in those that I BOTHERED to post in support of my viewpoint...
Btw...
CONTEXT is a whole other arguement (based upon the words of MEN, not upon the
WORD of GOD)...
It is my contention that the ENTIRE Scripture is a
"CONTEXT" for it stands as
ONE, ...and no principle within the
WORD of GOD, is CONFINED by MAN'S theological DEMAND of --
"CONTEXT"! :mnah:
Quote from: Dallas on March 17, 2010, 08:07:21 PMI am not condeming nor did I ever suggest Judas recive punishment, I just stated what the scripture recorded.
Hmmm... oh really? :thinking: ...where? :dunno:
Quote from: Dallas on March 17, 2010, 08:07:21 PMJudas betrayed Jesus, comitted suicide, lost his office, both of which were prophesied, and likewise to fulfill prophecy his office as judge was given to another.
Where is this stated bro Dallas? :Book: :declare:
Quote from: Dallas on March 17, 2010, 08:07:21 PMThere is no need for a thirteenth judge/apostle, there are only twelve tribes....
You are getting terribly off-point... :wacko2:
JUDAS was CHOSEN as one of the TWELVE FOUNDATIONAL Apostles --
BY -- the
WORD... and, the
WORD --- :popout: ---
NEVER CHANGES... so those APPOINTMENTS shall
NOT CHANGE. Irregardless of your opinion, bro. :mnah:
In the FLESH, JUDAS was ordained to be the adversary of
CHRIST in order to accomplish SALVATION, ...even though APPOINTED by HIM as a FOUNDATIONAL APOSTLE...
In the SPIRIT, JUDAS was APPOINTED a FOUNDATIONAL APOSTLE, and that shall NOT CHANGE, and until you prove otherwise, your contention is just an opinion.
...willieH :icon_king:
QuoteIrregardless of your opinion, bro.
Cool, you regard my opinion! :laughing7:
QuoteYou have posted ZERO Scriptural support for these two contentions above (1) JESUS was about a "restructuring" (2) that JUDAS lost the "office of judge"...
Acts 1:15 "At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said, 16"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17"For he was counted among us and
received his share in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out. 19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20"For it is written in the book of Psalms,
'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,
AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT';
and,
'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.'
As far as Jesus establishing the twelve as heads in which they shall judge, read the thread because Roserred quoted a great amount of scripture concearning it.... the twelve would judge the twelve tribes of israel, they would sit on the walls of the new jerusalem judgeing wether or not one should be allowed inside.
Now go ahead and twist these so we can see why the great Willie has the understanding... just as you tried to twist the woe is meant for Jesus scripture. LOL!
Interesting thread.
Suggestion. If a father tells his son as they are on their way to the woodshed that it would be better for him if he hadn't been born ... well you know that boy is getting, as they say, a whuppin.
From what I can tell, UR still believes that judgment can be very severe.
Infinity minus one moment - is still a verrrrrry verrrrrry long time.
:thumbsup: :thumbdown: :msealed:
Hey willie I would also like to point out what Peter said about Judas;
Acts 1:25 "to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
willieH: Hi Dal... :hithere:
Quote21"For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
Quote from: Dallas on March 18, 2010, 08:53:29 PMThe context is, the whom woe will come upon is the betrayer. Seriously, it is straight forward, and if you need to twist that to fit your wholy ideology you are the one having difficulty with the scriptures not others.
Now it says woe to the betrayer that woe really doesn;t mean anything then? So likewise when revelation says woe that also doens't really mean woe but more like, kinda unfourtunate.
FIRST ---
Twisting? :sigh: ...This is an unnecessary comment, and you should be ashamed for suggesting it of another. We are all seeking... and in that seeking, we shall find ourselves in varying places along the pathway of truth.
You cannot erect the STRAWMAN called "
twisting" and exempt yourself from it. So let us ignore this foolishness, and leave it to burn.
SECOND --- No one is trying to suggest that JUDAS did not recieve his "woe"... on the contrary! I believe that he suffered mentally and spiritually MORE than any man in HISTORY! That is a LOT of "woe"...
THIRD --- There are LITERAL translations which bear out that this verse conveys that
JESUS was the one that would've been "better off"... capitalizing the word -- "HIM" -- and thereby showing reference to
JESUS within the text...
CLT --
Mark 14:21 --
21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"Quote from: Dallas on March 18, 2010, 08:53:29 PMRevelation 8:13 "Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"
Revelation 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."
These verses are applicable to ALL in which ADVERSITY exists... It is argueable that "the devil" is actually a sentient entity... but that's another discussion. :nod:
Quote from: Dallas on March 18, 2010, 08:53:29 PMThere is a calamity that befalls Judas, that is an internal calamity, ripping at his soul, as he fights within himself for peace at what he had done. That man who betrayed Jesus now must turn to Jesus and accept Jesus' inclusion.... not going to be an easy thing to face....almost as though it would be better for him not to have been born. So much so that man was destryoed within himself he killed himself. Surely Judas was included into the cross, just try to convince him of that.
There is a very SPIRITUAL picture in the death of JUDAS... It is the DEATH of ADVERSITY... which must occur in ALL... ALL men are AS GUILTY as JUDAS, concerning the DEATH of the Savior. And
JESUS' "inclusion" WILL be as HEART FELT in each man, as it was in JUDAS... for He embodies
OUR BETRAYAL.
Quote from: Dallas on March 18, 2010, 08:53:29 PMa full-grown man who got fired has a very hard time telling people because of shame (suicide rate from it), so how easy is it going to be for Judas who betrayed GOD to turn to Him and acknowledge it? Imagine the shame that he carries about it, it was so much he did kill himself.
I just addressed this... we all must willingly submit to DEATH, the CARNAL version of ourselves, and submit to the
CHRIST within, which shall NEVER [not at any time] leave us or forsake us. (He WAS with us, IS with us, and ALWAYS WILL BE with us)
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: Yab Yum on March 18, 2010, 09:24:32 PM
Interesting thread.
Suggestion. If a father tells his son as they are on their way to the woodshed that it would be better for him if he hadn't been born ... well you know that boy is getting, as they say, a whuppin.
From what I can tell, UR still believes that judgment can be very severe.
Infinity minus one moment - is still a verrrrrry verrrrrry long time.
:thumbsup: :thumbdown: :msealed:
YY,
I've searched for the duration of punishment. I found various articles on it by Rabbi's. They all seem to agree correction lasts 0-11 months. 3 months for most people. 12 months for the extremely wicked. A minority thinks the last group will stop to exist after 12 months. I do not now how they concluded that.
My idea/guess is that it's related to the spring/fall harvests.
Quote
Quote from: Dallas on Today at 02:53:29 PM
There is a calamity that befalls Judas, that is an internal calamity, ripping at his soul, as he fights within himself for peace at what he had done. That man who betrayed Jesus now must turn to Jesus and accept Jesus' inclusion.... not going to be an easy thing to face....almost as though it would be better for him not to have been born. So much so that man was destryoed within himself he killed himself. Surely Judas was included into the cross, just try to convince him of that.
There is a very SPIRITUAL picture in the death of JUDAS... It is the DEATH of ADVERSITY... which must occur in ALL... ALL men are AS GUILTY as JUDAS, concerning the DEATH of the Savior. And JESUS' "inclusion" WILL be as HEART FELT in each man, as it was in JUDAS... for He embodies OUR BETRAYAL.
Quote from: Dallas on Today at 02:53:29 PM
a full-grown man who got fired has a very hard time telling people because of shame (suicide rate from it), so how easy is it going to be for Judas who betrayed GOD to turn to Him and acknowledge it? Imagine the shame that he carries about it, it was so much he did kill himself.
I just addressed this... we all must willingly submit to DEATH, the CARNAL version of ourselves, and submit to the CHRIST within, which shall NEVER [not at any time] leave us or forsake us. (He WAS with us, IS with us, and ALWAYS WILL BE with us)
What does this have anything to do with the conversation we were in?
QuoteFIRST --- Twisting? ...This is an unnecessary comment, and you should be ashamed for suggesting it of another. We are all seeking... and in that seeking, we shall find ourselves in varying places along the pathway of truth.
You cannot erect the STRAWMAN called "twisting" and exempt yourself from it. So let us ignore this foolishness, and leave it to burn.]
And, yes I can. I see the use of the scriptures as you are using them to be twisting. Scripture is literature and when you decide to change the lituature to wrangle a meaning out of it you have lost the meaning it already had. There is also a great conotation that you need it to say what you want verses, just because you found others who need that same idea isn't surprising, even Heaven's Gate had more than one member.
willieH: Hi Dallas... :cloud9:
Quote from: Dallas on March 18, 2010, 09:40:27 PM
Hey willie I would also like to point out what Peter said about Judas;
Acts 1:25 "to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
No one is denying that another APOSTLE was appointed to carry on...
But this replacement APOSTLE was
not of the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE.
CHRIST chose the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE... and the
WORD NEVER CHANGES... So the CHOOSING that
He did
IS ETERNAL.
You are more than welcome to maintain your opinion. :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
QuoteNo one is denying that another APOSTLE was appointed to carry on...
But this replacement APOSTLE was not of the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE.
CHRIST chose the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE... and the WORD NEVER CHANGES... So the CHOOSING that He did IS ETERNAL.
You are more than welcome to maintain your opinion.
This is what I am saying, you just simply chose to deny the scripture even why I did post it for you. It says straight forward, Judas had recived his portion already, he gave up his seat and another was appointed to fill the role.
But you chose to deny the simply stated reality of it...when Jesus included Judas he knew full well that he was going to lose his seat, if not him someone else would have, the seat would need to be replaced and Jesus gave it to Paul personally.
Just as Saul the first King of Israel lost his position, and David was put in his place, likewise the judge lost his and was replaced. And along with it all it's rights and privellages.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 18, 2010, 10:00:06 PM
I've searched for the duration of punishment. I found various articles on it by Rabbi's. They all seem to agree correction lasts 0-11 months. 3 months for most people. 12 months for the extremely wicked. A minority thinks the last group will stop to exist after 12 months. I do not now how they concluded that.
My idea/guess is that it's related to the spring/fall harvests.
Thanks WW.
willieH: Hi Dallas... :cloud9:
Quote from: willieHNo one is denying that another APOSTLE was appointed to carry on...
But this replacement APOSTLE was not of the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE.
CHRIST chose the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE... and the WORD NEVER CHANGES... So the CHOOSING that He did IS ETERNAL.
You are more than welcome to maintain your opinion.
Quote from: Dallas on March 18, 2010, 10:09:03 PMThis is what I am saying, you just simply chose to deny the scripture even why I did post it for you. It says straight forward, Judas had recived his portion already, he gave up his seat and another was appointed to fill the role.
Only on the TEMPORAL plane, Dallas... NOTHING is noted of the ETERNAL... except the ETERNAL "CHOICE", which was PERSONALLY made by
CHRIST of JUDAS as an APOSTLE... :nod:
If there was such a proof, you would've already posted it bro, but you have not, because it is not there... :dontknow:
The fact remains that on the ETERNAL plane, in which JUDAS was CHOSEN --
BY -- the
WORD [CHRIST], he was of the TWELVE... The
WORD does NOT CHANGE, and there is NO VARIANCE in it --
James 1:17 -- the CHOICE made and STATED by
CHRIST is therefore an UNCHANGING CHOICE, irregardless of your decision to not recognize it.
JUDAS "gave up his role", because it was ORDAINED he do so (on the TEMPORAL plane), in the Lamb being SLAIN from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD --
Rev 13:8 -- JUDAS did
NOT decide this (him "giving up his role"), ...GOD did... :dontknow:
Quote from: Dallas on March 18, 2010, 10:09:03 PMBut you chose to deny the simply stated reality of it...when Jesus included Judas he knew full well that he was going to lose his seat, if not him someone else would have, the seat would need to be replaced and Jesus gave it to Paul personally.
I am not "denying" anything... I simply see this differently than do you...
The biggest difference between our views bro... is that I see the
decision of JUDAS as one
GOD made and, "not his own" (for that
decision was made at the FOUNDATION of the WORLD,
not 2000 years ago)... whereas, you see his "decision" as his own.
Btw... PAUL was not given to be the replacement of JUDAS... it was MATTHIAS --
Acts 1:20-26Quote from: Dallas on March 18, 2010, 10:09:03 PMJust as Saul the first King of Israel lost his position, and David was put in his place, likewise the judge lost his and was replaced. And along with it all it's rights and privellages.
Let's face it, ...you are reaching bro... :mnah:
The TEMPORAL plane is FOREORDAINED, for GOD is WORKING ALL THINGS according to HIS WILL --
Eph 1:11 -- (not according to JUDAS or you or I or David or Saul)
We are on the agenda of
YHVH, not the other way around... :dontknow:
YHVH did not have to make a change in plans which included a "replacement" of JUDAS, due to the "CLAY" known as JUDAS, rather... had already DECLARED the part of JUDAS within His FORE-DECLARATION of ALL THINGS which "were not done" (which is EVERYTHING in the TEMPORAL plane) --
Isaiah 46:10Again... you are welcome to disagree, doesn't matter to me... :friendstu:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
This has been on my mind for a couple of days now
and have read everyones POV
the thing that is bugging me most is that satan entered Judas
Jesus said Have I not choosen you twelve and one of you is a devil ?
so was satan leading Judas around by the nose on the betrayal?
and its actually satan whom betrays Christ though Judas ?
is it not satan whom always betrays Christ ? us even , we are all prisoners of one or the other
satan or Jesus .............
It seems we are chosen vessels [honor and dishonor ]and have very little control over what chooses us and if we even have a choice in anything really :mshock:
in our weakness the Lord is our strength ! you cannot be any weaker when suicide looks good to ya !
just some thoughts on this thread , that has been bugging me for two days now , its still not settled within yet ..
3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.
4He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them.
5And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.
6So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd.
Quote from: rosered on March 20, 2010, 12:06:06 AM
This has been on my mind for a couple of days now
and have read everyones POV
the thing that is bugging me most is that satan entered Judas
Jesus said Have I not choosen you twelve and one of you is a devil ?
so was satan leading Judas around by the nose on the betrayal?
and its actually satan whom betrays Christ though Judas ?
is it not satan whom always betrays Christ ? us even , we are all prisoners of one or the other
satan or Jesus .............
It seems we are chosen vessels [honor and dishonor ]and have very little control over what chooses us and if we even have a choice in anything really :mshock:
in our weakness the Lord is our strength ! you cannot be any weaker when suicide looks good to ya !
just some thoughts on this thread , that has been bugging me for two days now , its still not settled within yet ..
3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.
4He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them.
5And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.
6So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd.
Good post, rosie - a lot to think about.
------------------------------------------------------------
Mod Note - Guys, let's please get this topic back on focus and leave off with the personal stuff. PMs are available for that. Thanks, James.
It is certainly most important and interesting that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him. There is hardly any experience in life more painful than that. The story could have played out any way at all, but it played out this way. What wound could be more devastating?
He surely lets us know that he understands everything we will suffer in this life, because he suffered it himself.
Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
But, I no longer stand on the foundation of a betrayer and liar, but the sure foundation of one who is worthy, one who is faithful, one who is true--Our foundation is not the betrayer, but the Christ.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Quote from: Molly on March 20, 2010, 01:07:02 AM
It is certainly most important and interesting that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him. There is hardly any experience in life more painful than that. The story could have played out any way at all, but it played out this way. What wound could be more devastating?
He surely lets us know that he understands everything we will suffer in this life, because he suffered it himself.
Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
But, I no longer stand on the foundation of a betrayer and liar, but the sure foundation of one who is worthy, one who is faithful, one who is true--Our foundation is not the betrayer, but the Christ.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
the prophecy was Molly that one would come to betray Jesus a friend
but what was all the rest of them that actually done the deed ? .. true Judas led them to Jesus but
the only sin that is unforgivable is to Blaspheme the Holy Shirit
do you think Judas is guilty of that ?
Quotethe only sin that is unforgivable is to Blaspheme the Holy Shirit
do you think Judas is guilty of that ?
well, I can't really claim to know what that is, but Judas was always a shady character, a petty thief dipping into the till--surely, Jesus knew this about him. Even though he is entered into by Satan at the supper, it's not like he had much character to begin with.
But I always felt sorry for him because I think he did realize at the end what he had done. He understood and knew that he could not undo it--would have if he could. It has always made me very sad.
3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. --Mat 27
Quote from: Molly on March 20, 2010, 02:03:46 AM
Quotethe only sin that is unforgivable is to Blaspheme the Holy Shirit
do you think Judas is guilty of that ?
well, I can't really claim to know what that is, but Judas was always a shady character, a petty thief dipping into the till--surely, Jesus knew this about him. Even though he is entered into by Satan at the supper, it's not like he had much character to begin with.
But I always felt sorry for him because I think he did realize at the end what he had done. He understood and knew that he could not undo it--would have if he could. It has always made me very sad.
3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
--Mat 27
I know what you mean sis ,
I too feel pity in his misery , I do also feel that was a confession of remorse and repented of this deed
the example of him suffering great loss but the scriptures had to come to pass sis , that is what makes me think Jesus knew and would be Glorified in Death because death would hold no power over Him ...
John 13 .. see how Jesus knew this before hand , He could have slipped though as He had done many times before to escape the Jews that desired to kill him and yet this was said .... ESV
What you do , do it quickly ..
28Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him.
29Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, "Buy what we need for the feast," or that he should give something to the poor. 30So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.
31When
he had gone out, Jesus said,
"Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. Judas is a type of son of perdition ..
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;
that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem;
insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
I have temporary locked this topic!
Misunderstandings are occurring and feelings are possibly getting hurt. I may delete a few post to keep with the fruit of the Spirit, and then reopen the topic.
This is not personal, just moderating. :thumbsup:
Paul
Thanks Paul. It appears the mod request was either overlooked or ignored. There are probably some that would still like to continue to post in an appropriate manner should you decide to clean it up and reopen it. :thumbsup:
Ok, were open for comments...
Please stay with the topic!
Paul
Thanks for opening this thread back up James and Paul / Pierac :thumbsup:
and Molly , Sis ,thanks for the respectful ways you have shared your thoughts and beliefs on this subject of Judas it has been enlighting to ponder all the points made on Judas in the Word of God ..
:HeartThrob:
Credit goes to Paul :thumbsup:.
A few things I ran across and thought of today;
Jesus told THE TWELVE that it had been given to them to know the secrets of the kingdom..(Luke 8:10)
Also, read this today in Luke 9 "Now when He had called together the Twelve, He gave them power and authority over all the demons and to cure diseases. Then He dispatched them to proclaim God's Kingdom and to heal the weak [sick]....Now they went out and began going from village to village, spreading the Good Message and curing people everywhere."
And then there's this; specifically verse 29, but given in context - does it relate to Judas at all?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Some things to think about...
Yes it does , helps alot ! Thanks James ........... :icon_flower:
I do believe the Grace and Love and mercy of God far superceeds
anything imaginable in our minds to comprehend !
its by the Spirit of the Living God that we can even speak of these things ! or even Know them!
Awesome is our God ! :HeartThrob:
Acts 1:16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry."
18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.
19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20"For it is written in the book of Psalms,
'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,
AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT';
and,
'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.
Quote from: Dallas on March 22, 2010, 01:27:05 AM
Acts 1:16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry."
18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.
19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20"For it is written in the book of Psalms,
'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,
AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT';
and,
'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.
Hi Dallas I agree that Judas lost his place of office
but I also feel that the son of perdition /type of Judas
also will be saved as by fire ..per written in
I Cor 3
could also very well explain Judas end
it was His deeds / works that are judged ..
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it,
because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall
try every man's work of what sort it is. 1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned,
he shall suffer loss:
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God,
him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
1Cr 3:18 ¶
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written,
He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Cr 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
1Cr 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
1Cr 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Cr 3:23
And ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's. considering everything said
and written
the loss and destruction of that man yet he will be saved by the Fire
considering everything ...
Yeah, I thought of that scripture Dallas. I just wonder how deep that runs, i.e., as someone else said, does that [office] only pertain to the earthly ministry in which he was involved, or also have to do with the "afterlife"? And bottom line, like rose said, I certainly believe he either will be or already is forgiven/restored. If so, then restored to what? Which brings us back to the 12 thrones, the name on the foundation, etc.
So my thoughts involve a) this life and its functions and then b) things following the resurrection/the next age(s).
Let's see how Christ's type of ecclesiastical government on earth worked? Christ's rule is simple and it is NOT hierarchical.
"He that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that does serve. For whether is greater, he that sits at meat, or he that serves? is not he that sits at meat? but I [Jesus Christ] am among you as one that serves." Luke 22:26–27
The word "minister" actually means "one who serves." God selects men and women to be servants to others, to serve the flock, not to be served by the lay people. The instructions of Christ show that the ministerial positions in the early Ekklesia such as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors," etc., (Ephesians 4:11) were functions for service. They were not aristocratic ranks.
This was demonstrated by the apostle Paul when he appeared among the Corinthians as one who was base (meek and humble), not as one who should be served by them (2 Corinthians 10:1). Ministers should not be dictatorial rulers of the flock. Indeed, the apostle Paul scolded the Corinthians for allowing "super-fine apostles" (called "the very chiefest apostles" in 2 Corinthians 11:5; 12:11) to come into their midst and bring the Corinthian Christians into a form of bondage — into servility.
"For you suffer fools gladly, for you suffer, if a man bring you into bondage [you allow it], if a man devour you [you allow it], if a man take of you [you allow it], if a man exalt himself [you allow it], if a man smite you on the face [you allow it]." 2 Corinthians 11:19–20
These aristocratic men brandishing their supposed authority were Hebrews (verse 22). They came into the midst of the Corinthians as superfine apostles (as men of rank and authority) and demanded that the Corinthians give full recognition to their exalted ranks that they believed they had.
The apostle Paul countered their attitude by telling the Corinthians they should not put up with such "false apostles, deceitful workers" (verse 13). When Paul lived among them or other Christian communities, he came exalting the members of the Ekklesia, not having the members exalting Paul. "Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that you might be exalted" (verse 7). Paul was among them in humility and weakness, not as a superior overlord.
Paul
Thanks Guys
for all your input
I also believe that everyone of the apostles pointed to and exalted Christ Jesus and the Heavenly Father always
one of the things that stuck a a cord
was betrayal is a form
of trechery and beguilment
his deed is not of love and will be burned up and suffer loss ..
if its not counted or amounts to vanity /nothing I do not know , God knows I do Know Jesus was glorified and His Father was also glorified in this kind of death one the Cross
found this in the Bible definitons dictionary
Betray
(From International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)
be-tra' (ramah; paradidomi): In the Old Testament only once (1 Chronicles 12:17). David warns those who had deserted to him from Saul: "If ye be come to betray me to mine adversaries .... the God of our fathers look thereon." The same Hebrew word is elsewhere translated "beguile" (Genesis 29:25; Joshua 9:22), "deceive" (1 Samuel 19:17; 1 Samuel 28:12; 2 Samuel 19:26; Proverbs 26:19; Lamentations 1:19).
In the New Testament, for paradidomi: 36 times, of the betrayal of Jesus Christ, and only 3 times besides (Matthew 24:10; Mark 13:12; Luke 21:16) of kinsmen delivering up one another to prosecution.
In these three places the Revised Version (British and American) translates according to the more general meaning,
"to deliver up," and also (in Matthew 17:22; Matthew 20:18; Matthew 26:16; Mark 14:10, Mark 14:21; Luke 22:4, Luke 22:6) where it refers to the delivering up of Jesus.
The Revisers' idea was perhaps to retain "betray" only in direct references to Judas' act, but they have not strictly followed that rule.
Judas' act was more than that of giving a person up to the authorities; he did it under circumstances of treachery which modified its character: (a) he took advantage of his intimate relation with Jesus Christ as a disciple to put Him in the hands of His enemies; (b) he did it stealthily by night, and (c) by a kiss, an act which professed affection and friendliness; (d) he did it for money, and (e) he knew that Jesus Christ was innocent of any crime (Matthew 27:4).
T. Rees
Read more: http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Def.show/RTD/ISBE/ID/1467/Betray.htm#ixzz0iuf4KhIt
and as for the ranking Paul /Pierac , that was a good point made
the scriptures tells us our liberty / freedom in Christ is to Love one another when serving one another is the same as serving Christ
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
the Law changed as well as the priesthood when Christ took control
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hbr 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Hbr 7:14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hbr 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Hbr 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Jhn 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
like I said before , am considering everything written in the Word on this and everything said on this thread by everyone .
and there is lots to consider when thinking deeper in the matter
Quote from: rosered on March 20, 2010, 12:06:06 AM
so was satan leading Judas around by the nose on the betrayal?
and its actually satan whom betrays Christ though Judas ?
is it not satan whom always betrays Christ ? us even , we are all prisoners of one or the other
satan or Jesus .............
I would assume satan would protect Jesus from getting caught.
From satan's pov every death for Jesus was fine but not a prophesy fulfilling death on the cross....
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2010, 06:01:32 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 20, 2010, 12:06:06 AM
so was satan leading Judas around by the nose on the betrayal?
and its actually satan whom betrays Christ though Judas ?
is it not satan whom always betrays Christ ? us even , we are all prisoners of one or the other
satan or Jesus .............
I would assume satan would protect Jesus from getting caught.
From satan's pov every death for Jesus was fine but not a prophesy fulfilling death on the cross....
can not see that WW sorry ?please explain it for me so I can , se your POV :mblush:
for me satan only has limited power over certain things as God will permit
take Job for instance Job was an example of how satan was given all that Job had , but not his life
the lesson for Job in all this was even God had Jobs life and Job had to realize that though all his misery and nothing was in his own power
God is in complete control all the time and even over ''time '' when that will be no more even :icon_flower:
mes longs for that fulfillment :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on March 22, 2010, 06:21:31 PMcan not see that WW sorry ?please explain it for me so I can , se your POV :mblush:
I know there are many views on what satan actually is. For easy of explanation lests say it's a person that want to wreck Gods plan.
Satan started in Eden. When he tricked Adam and Eve into eating the fruit he "triggered death".
I assume that was a huge victory for satan. Then Jesus came to undo the damage. That damage could only be undone when Jesus died after all prophecies were fulfilled. One of them was that Jesus should be lifted up like the snake on a pole. So imo satan would try to stop at least one prophesy. Then he would have won. So from satan's pov every death would be fine execpt the way Jesus died. Could be very simple. If satan would have made Judas stab Jesus with a knife, then (at least) one prophesy wasn't fulfilled. But what does satan does when he gets his first good chance? Hand over Jesus to the Romans. And because the Romans were the only ones doing the crucifixions satan indirectly handed over Jesus to the only persons that could fulfill one of the last/key prophesies.
Just a thought :dontknow:
AND I DECLARED THAT THE DEAD,
WHO HAD ALREADY DIED,
ARE HAPPIER THAN THE LIVING,
WHO ARE STILL ALIVE
BUT BETTER THAN BOTH IS HE
WHO HAS NOT YET BEEN ,
WHO HAS NOT SEEN THE EVIL
THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN
Judas, better than if he had not been born
Quote from: rosered on March 22, 2010, 06:21:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2010, 06:01:32 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 20, 2010, 12:06:06 AM
so was satan leading Judas around by the nose on the betrayal?
and its actually satan whom betrays Christ though Judas ?
is it not satan whom always betrays Christ ? us even , we are all prisoners of one or the other
satan or Jesus .............
I would assume satan would protect Jesus from getting caught.
From satan's pov every death for Jesus was fine but not a prophesy fulfilling death on the cross....
can not see that WW sorry ?please explain it for me so I can , se your POV :mblush:
for me satan only has limited power over certain things as God will permit
take Job for instance Job was an example of how satan was given all that Job had , but not his life
the lesson for Job in all this was even God had Jobs life and Job had to realize that though all his misery and nothing was in his own power
God is in complete control all the time and even over "time " when that will be no more even :icon_flower:
mes longs for that fulfillment :thumbsup:
Indeed,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:
whereunto also they were appointed.
I believe Jude 1:4 speaks directly to Judas!
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men
crept in unawares,
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Who betrayed whom?
Luk 22:3 Then entered
Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot , being of the number of the twelve.
Joh 13:2 And supper being ended,
the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
Yep, we can understand Judas better now!
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:
whereunto also they were appointed.
Paul
Good thoughts Paul !
you really should post more often :thumbsup:
Big help indeed
how will we learn what the difference between good and evil is without the evil in the knowledge /tree ?
and so desire the Tree of Life / knowledge of Him
God is in Control always :icon_flower:
appointed Strong's G5087 - tithēmi verb root word A prolonged form of a primary theo {theh'-o} (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)
1) to set, put, place
a) to place or lay
b) to put down, lay down
1) to bend down
2) to lay off or aside, to wear or carry no longer
3) to lay by, lay aside money
c) to set on (serve) something to eat or drink
d) to set forth, something to be explained by discourse
2) to make
a) to make (or set) for one's self or for one's use
3) to set, fix establish
a) to set forth
b) to establish, ordain
Thanks to every one and their contributions :HeartThrob:
QuoteHi Dallas I agree that Judas lost his place of office
but I also feel that the son of perdition /type of Judas
also will be saved as by fire ..per written in
I Cor 3
could also very well explain Judas end
it was His deeds / works that are judged ..
QuoteYeah, I thought of that scripture Dallas. I just wonder how deep that runs, i.e., as someone else said, does that [office] only pertain to the earthly ministry in which he was involved, or also have to do with the "afterlife"? And bottom line, like rose said, I certainly believe he either will be or already is forgiven/restored. If so, then restored to what? Which brings us back to the 12 thrones, the name on the foundation, etc.
Absolutley Judas has been forgiven his sin etc.
So was Saul the first King of Israel, but he wasn't reinstated as King, no he lost His office and another had to take his place.
If I were president and did something bad to loose my office, like Nixon.... if that somehow was attoned for I would not get the office back because it had to be replaced by another and that person would not get fired simply because the other person got their head on right.
Now i'm not saying Judas isn't forgiven, he is. But it's simply logistics, his office was filled and there is no need for the replacement to be fired.
I also believe that the 12 apostles don't judge anyway. Since the Law was put away they have no frame of reference even which to judge by. Their job was to judge the Jews and they did that and the judgement came upon Jerusalem (AD70). They ran the church, they setteled disputes and led the revolution....that was thier job.
What are they judging NOW? What's the need for THIER judgement? Even if you believe there is a future judgement, does that mean God doesn't have the ability to judge everybody? By what measure do the apostles use to judge, for they can't judge by the heart? Are you saying we will need judges in heaven, so then there will be disputes in heaven and not peace?
The idea that we need judges after the cross and afterdeath is IMO outside the realm of biblical construct. There simply isn't a need for judgement. There was definatley a need for judges between the crucifixation and the parousia (end of the cross). But now that the event is over, because the old covenant (law) has passed by so likewise the position of judge (law) has likewise passed by.
Hi Dallas
I belive this verse is what caused some confusion ... :sigh:
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,
ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:27 "Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"
28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.
30 "But many who are first will be last; and the last, first."
So then others recieve many times more than the apostles... this is all talking about the ushering in of the kingdom of God and the removal of the kingdom of the Jew (law based capital).
Thanks Dallas - I'll think about what you've said.
guys, here my take on it...
Judas was an appointed apostle by Jesus...and he lost his place for he was not following in his vocation anymore...
the other 11 apostles prayed to God and was shown who was to replace Judas
It is clear that Jesus instructed his apostles to act in this way (all of them being present) for they would one day not just carry on the message of Jesus, but also together judge the tribes of Israel...apostles (apostolos) are translated as "messengers"...the apostles had a specific task and was not allowed to act on their own or out of sync with what Jesus had taught...thats why Jesus spent 3 years training them before his death and also 1 year after his resurrection...they were men specifically and carefully picked for this task...one of the specific requirements for beind an apostle was also clearly shown at the vote, the person had to be present with the Lord on earth from the beginning of his ministry
we must remember that God gave these 12 apostles "the keys to bind/loose things in heaven and earth", so they had all to be in accord when the choice fell unto Matthias to replace Judas. It is correct what Pierac said about the apostles not outranking each other, they were all of the same rank and had to operate as a unit.
When James was killed by ther sword, no one was elected to replace him because he didn't loose his office, only his earthly life
Revelation also confirm that there are only 12 apostles EVER who was appointed by Jesus
Thanks NONAME !
this really helps too , soo much to consider than just a few base facts , most just run with that ..
when you really get to share others views on these deeper things of God and His plan it just blows my little mind and small view to shreds!
I love the broader thoughts everyone has shared concerning Judas the past few days , lots to ponder upon , that i never considered before !
its been something thats troubled me for some time now , years actually :sigh:.. again good thoughts on this :thumbsup:
the 12 also a foundational number and how they would bring the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ into the world
the 3 days and wine the 7 loaves of bread , the 12 apostles ambassadors for Christ , speaking on His behalf as the Christ /testator as you said loosing and binding by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them one whosoever will come to the Lord
this is also the prophecy being fulfilled , that blessed is he who come in the name of the Lord , for those whom of the Jews that missed the time of their visitation
bringing in the new and better testament /will by the royal Law of Love one another as I have loved you .... being Rich made Himself poor by giving all He has to them and those whom believe them ! for Spiritual growth in faith and His promises in the earth as it is in heaven
Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
testament Strong's G1242 - diathēkē From διατίθημι (G1303)
1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament
a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.
testator Strong's G1303 - diatithēmi
Middle voice from διά (G1223) and τίθημι (G5087)
1) to arrange, dispose of, one's own affairs
a) of something that belongs to one
b) to dispose of by will, make a testament
2) to make a covenant, enter into a covenant, with one
I have studies this before but its been awhile and see even more than before ! Prasie God for His mercy and unveiling
@ rosered :thumbsup:
one can totally understand the statement about Judas if one thinks that he experienced all the trials and tribulations during Jesus' ministry, saw miracles unfold before his eyes, people being healed which were "unhealable" (for lack of a better word)...and then promised to be a ruler with Christ judging the tribes of Israel...promised everlasting life...only to sell it ALL for 30 pieces of silver :sigh:
willieH: Hello to all... :hithere:
The verses (just below) have been quoted as support for the idea the JUDAS had [completely] "received" his "portion" of the ministry, and is therefore complete and ended, and supposes this is ALL he shall "receive" (no longer one of the FOUNDATIONAL 12 Apostles):
QuoteActs 1:16-17 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry."
This is the KJV translation of those verses:
Acts 16-17 --
Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning JUDAS, which was guide to them that took JESUS... for he was numbered with us and had obtained part of this ministry...The
PART of the ministry in which JUDAS partook, as with
JESUS was an EARTHLY ministry (approximately 3-3.5 YEARS in duration -- which is a substancial amount of time spent)...
JESUS' "ministry" is much more than his "earthly ministry"... and I believe the same shall be counted of JUDAS... who
IS one of the FOUNDATIONAL Apostles, which
JESUS Himself addressed as has already been noted in this thread ---
Luke 22:28-30Are we not the continuing "ministers" of
CHRIST, who... in the stead of those gone before, are serving (ministering) the
GOSPEL of God unto the WORLD? :dontknow:
Futhermore... Here is something to consider as we ponder, concerning JUDAS:
It is written in the Parables of
CHRIST, that the LOST SON "recieved" his PORTION [part], then WASTED it... was that the END of it? Or (despite the SELFISH arguement of the ELDER SON that he was undeserving of further from the Father) was there MUCH MORE, in store for this "Lost Son"? Read for yourself --
Luke 15:11-32 Guess in the end, we are all welcome to our individual observations, ...but
NOTHING can REMOVE the
FACT... that
JUDAS was
present to HEAR the address which
CHRIST delivered in --
Luke 22:28-30 --
NOT "Matthais"...
Luke 22:14 notes that He "sat down, and the
TWELVE APOSTLES with Him (no one else)... JUDAS partook of this, last "supper"... (which did NOT INCLUDE -- Matthias)... and
Luke 22:28 notes
"YE [the 12 present] are THEY which have continued WITH ME, in My TEMPTATIONS"...
It's all there... PLAINLY stated... let him that hath EARS, ...Hear.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Acts 1:24-26 (New International Version)
24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
see? its all clear there
do you really think God would let a traitor sit on a throne next to Him to judge His righteous?
Quote from: noname on March 25, 2010, 04:39:22 PM
see? its all clear there
For you. Not for me. :winkgrin:
The verse only states he was added to the apostles on earth.
I doesn't say he replaces Judas as a judge.
Quotedo you really think God would let a traitor sit on a throne next to Him to judge His righteous?
No. But it's not clear Judas is a traitor.
- Traitor is one of the several possible translations.
- Jesus promised Judas he would be judge.
- To that promise was added that they (12) had followed Jesus his whole ministry. Matthias didn't.
- 30 pieces of silver sounds more symbolic than the best deal Judas could have made.
- The greeting of Jesus and the kiss.
:2c:
Acts 1:16"Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.- KJV
Acts 1:16"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry." -NASB
(Both NASB and KJV were translated out of the same manuscripts and the need for the NASB was because the KJV Ancient Elizabethean was considered an obsolete language and thus the NASB was comissioned. The evolution of the manuscripts went from KJV, to the NewKJV and then finally the NASB.
They are the same version, just the updated language.)
Even the KJV says the same thing, "he HAD obtained PART of this ministry." Judas had- past tense, he at one time was included....obtained part- already had his part but now is not part of that specific ministry.
It's straight forward, Judas was an apostle and lost his part, he had a part but lost it. Paul was chosen by Jesus to replace him...
Ephesians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,"
again what about-
Matthew 19:27 "Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" 28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 "But many who are first will be last; and the last, first."
So then others recieve many times more than the apostles?
Of course not for we all receive an equal share.
1 Corinthians 6:1 "Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? 2Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?"
This whole "receiving a part in the judgement field" is highly overvalued, for we all get the same part.
Quote from: noname on March 25, 2010, 04:39:22 PM
Acts 1:24-26 (New International Version)
24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
see? its all clear there
do you really think God would let a traitor sit on a throne next to Him to judge His righteous?
The "judgment" portion suggested is a whole other discussion... as to what it is... but concerning the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE...
I Don't have to "think" anything... :mnah:
ALL men are "traitors" to GOD... ALL men have BETRAYED the Savior and each of us has our own individual part, in which resulted in HIS crucifixtion for us. :dontknow:
Let him that is WITHOUT SIN (which is "BETRAYAL" to the COMMAND of GOD, and which "betrayal" resulted in the DEATH of
JESUS CHRIST), ...cast the 1st stone at the "traitor", ...JUDAS... :sigh:
No matter what "translation" one procures in hopes that their vision be manifest, ...the fact remains that JUDAS was not only CHOSEN by the
CHRIST as an Apostle, and had ministered for 3.5 YEARS WITH Him, ...but was also present at this address:
Luke 22:28-30...willieH :HeartThrob:
I understand the part about mankind betraying God, hence being able to be called 'Traitors', however...
QuoteLet him that is WITHOUT SIN (which is "BETRAYAL" to the COMMAND of GOD, and which "betrayal" resulted in the DEATH of JESUS CHRIST), ...cast the 1st stone at the "traitor", ...JUDAS...
I thought that Jesus stated this to the crowds that were about to stone an adultress woman, not at Judas... I don't understand how that statement can be made in reference to Judas.
Also, I understood that the phrase 'Without Sin' meant being blameless in ANY aspect, not just to betray the command of God.
Can you clarify that for me? I don't think I understand what it is you're trying to convey here.
Our flesh itself, inherited from Adam — sin.
For in Adam, all have sinned.
It is from ourselves that we our redeemed in Christ.
Not, per se what we have done, but — what we are not.
However; What we are, in Christ, is a new creation, holy and blameless before the Lord.
Jesus, your Name be praised on high.
Sweet release..................For You alone be glorified!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bK4jdZ6nTU&feature=related
QuoteI understand the part about mankind betraying God, hence being able to be called 'Traitors', however...
Betrayal?
My daughter hasn't betrayed God. To betray someone is to first make an agreement with them, then go back on that agreement, that trust. Many people have never entered into an agreement with God. My daughter who is ten has never made an agreement with God, never backed out or returned on the trust.
In order to betray you have to have something to betray! Did she inherit sin, yes, but she isn't a betrayer.
That whole idea that one sin equals them all is simply not true. Myself, I have never murdered, have you? Have you killed a person? I haven't, I'm not a murderer. Just because I have sin doesn't make me a murderer.
It's flawed, the whole subtitution by guilt idea.
Sin passed to all mankind, not betrayal passed to all mankind.
Yes Dallas, everything Adam has done, you and your daughter have done, and your daughters, daughters have done.
That is our fleshly heritage.
Sin inhabits all flesh.
In Adam...
In Christ...
Quote from: Dallas on March 25, 2010, 09:37:05 PM
Paul was chosen by Jesus to replace him...
Paul was never chosen as apostle by anyone...the claim to apostle is all his own...the newly chosen apostle by God and the 11 to replace Judas was Matthias.
if you we read the Revelation of Jesus Christ to his apostle John, the last book of the Bible to be written, Paul was already dead, we see that there is STILL only 12 apostles...not 13 or 14...11 original ones plus Matthias
if we look at the conditions necessary to be an apostle, even John the Babtist would not have qualified as he was not present with the Lord during his earthly ministry...that was a condition for anyone to be chosen in place of Judas...
further, the 12 apostles is also to become the judges of Israel and the nations...Jesus handpicked them, he never picked Paul...and he obviously didn't change his mind after his ressurrection, for according to the books of the Homelies where we read about the acts of the apostles in a historic sense and therefore not included in the Bible, Jesus taught them for still a year AFTER his ressurection...Paul was not included with the 12 again
Quote from: noname on March 26, 2010, 09:57:30 AM
if we look at the conditions necessary to be an apostle,
NoName,
Can you list those conditions?
Quoteeven John the Babtist would not have qualified as he was not present with the Lord during his earthly ministry
Was Matthias present? Everybody can follow Jesus outdoors; but what about the private teaching Jesus gave to the 12? Was Matthias present there too?
The Appointing of the Twelve Apostles
13Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14He appointed twelve—designating them apostles—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15and to have authority to drive out demons. 16These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter 17 James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder); 18Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas
12Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city. 13When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
15In those days Peter stood up among the believers[c] (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."
18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
" 'May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,'[d] and,
" 'May another take his place of leadership.'[e] 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."
23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
Conditions stated above in bold
all these conditions would exclude Paul, even John the baptist (who has been called the greatest prophet ever by Jesus) as he had not "been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" and didn't witness the ressurection.
we must never loose sight of the fact that the apostles were the hand picked messengers of Christ, picked from 100s of true disciples which followed Jesus everywhere he went...apostle is "apostolos" in Greek which means "messenger"...they were not allowed to step out of this vocation, and their message was to share the Gospel of Salvation verbatim with the people, the message that Jesus brought to earth
Jesus also made it very clear that the messenger is not greater than he who sends him to give the message...in the Bible you'll find the books which were written by some of the apostles, that they NEVER stray from the Gospel message of Jesus
Hi Noname ,
This is where we will disagree
because I truly believe in my heart Saul/ Paul was chosen by Jesus Christ to be the new apostle , not the 13th
but the one born out of due time And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
Judas had not killed himself yet ....
1Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Cr 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Therefore whether [it were] I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
I or they this is not the main concern , its that they ALL DID included Paul
a chosen vessel that would suffer many things for JESUS names sake
personally many of Pauls writings / his body of works reveal mysteries long hidden from our eyes
and do very much coincide and AGREE with every thing Jesus taught
and reveals Jesus Christ and the works of the Holy Spirit even further
the last thing we should fo is argue over the bodies of works and whos is whos ,, its all Jesus Christ / BODY and its made ALIVE through the SPIRIT OF HOLY Father , this grace and mercy on us all
even Peter denied Christ betrayed Jesus 3 times as Judas did
and What did Jesus say to Peter ?
Peter did not even know it was him ! Jesus had come to see them after His death in His glorified body and spoke to them
its in John 21 NLT
'12 "Now come and have some breakfast!" Jesus said. None of the disciples dared to ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.
13 Then Jesus served them the bread and the fish. 14 This was the third time Jesus had appeared to his disciples since he had been raised from the dead.
15 After breakfast Jesus asked Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," Peter replied, "you know I love you."
"Then feed my lambs," Jesus told him.
16 Jesus repeated the question: "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
"Yes, Lord," Peter said, "you know I love you."
"Then take care of my sheep," Jesus said.
17 A third time he asked him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt that Jesus asked the question a third time. He said, "Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Then feed my sheep.
18 "I tell you the truth, when you were young, you were able to do as you liked; you dressed yourself and went wherever you wanted to go. But when you are old, you will stretch out your hands,
and others will dress you and take you where you don't want to go."
19 Jesus said this to let him know by what kind of death he would glorify God. Then Jesus told him, "Follow me."
20 Peter turned around and saw behind them the disciple Jesus loved—the one who had leaned over to Jesus during supper and asked, "Lord, who will betray you?" 21 Peter asked Jesus, "What about him, Lord?"
22 Jesus replied, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? As for you, follow me."
23 So the rumor spread among the community of believers that this disciple wouldn't die. But that isn't what Jesus said at all. He only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
24 This disciple is the one who testifies to these events and has recorded them here. And we know that his account of these things is accurate.
25 Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.
even Peter was told by Jesus of his betrayal and yet he did not know at the time
Saul/ Paul on the road to Damascus was also betraying Jesus Body / Church that was being made alive by Christ the head
and did not know till Jesus blinded him with TRUTH !
fulfilling this very prophecy in Paul / saul from the start being Judged by Jesus and there are many more prophecies being fulfilled by Jesus in Paul Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Jhn 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
now we see how Jesus judges hearts and how he changes them
causing the seeing to be blind and the blind to SEE
Jhn 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Acts 9
Saul's Conversion
1 Meanwhile, Saul was uttering threats with every breath and was eager to kill the Lord's followers. So he went to the high priest. 2 He requested letters addressed to the synagogues in Damascus, asking for their cooperation in the arrest of any followers of the Way he found there. He wanted to bring them—both men and women—back to Jerusalem in chains.
3 As he was approaching Damascus on this mission, a light from heaven suddenly shone down around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?"
5 "Who are you, lord?" Saul asked.
And the voice replied, "I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting! 6 Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
7 The men with Saul stood speechless, for they heard the sound of someone's voice but saw no one!
8 Saul picked himself up off the ground, but when he opened his eyes he was blind. So his companions led him by the hand to Damascus. 9 He remained there blind for three days and did not eat or drink.
10 Now there was a believer in Damascus named Ananias. The Lord spoke to him in a vision, calling, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord!" he replied.
11 The Lord said, "Go over to Straight Street, to the house of Judas. When you get there, ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul. He is praying to me right now. 12 I have shown him a vision of a man named Ananias coming in and laying hands on him so he can see again."
13 "But Lord," exclaimed Ananias, "I've heard many people talk about the terrible things this man has done to the believers in Jerusalem! 14 And he is authorized by the leading priests to arrest everyone who calls upon your name."
15 But the Lord said, "Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel. 16 And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name's sake."
17 So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road, has sent me so that you might regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 Instantly something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he got up and was baptized. 19 Afterward he ate some food and regained his strength.
spiritual food no doubt ! the new man in Christ the work of the Holy Spirit and heavenly Father has declared His Kingdom come and will be done on the earth and it is in heaven
no man can change my mind on this
just the Holy Spirit can as
this is truth settled within already .... :cloud9:
hi Rosered,
you are free to believe what has been revealed to you...
I however know that I'm not alone in saying that Paul was not an appointed apostle by Jesus Christ...except for himself saying so...
I am in agreement with all of the post apostolic church leaders before Roman Catholosysm as well as the first church of Jerusalem as well as ALL of the churches in Asia minor (the 7 churches of Revelation)...at Ephesus Paul was tried as a heretic and therefore rejected....Jesus even praises the church of the Ephesians in Revelation for trying "those who claimed to be apostles but are not" and rejecting them...only Paul and two of his relatives, which he also called apostles made those claims to the Ephesians.
If you'd like to study more, read Tertullian's "Against Marcion"
Marcion already claimed in the early 100s that only Paul's gospel was the real one
Tertullian in 5 books totally floors his arguments
Also, see what Clement and Polycarp had to say about his teachings
Even the reformers, Luther and Tyndale, came to this conclusion eventually that Paul's claim for being an apostle cam eonly from himself
Jesus said that if He was testifying about Himself, His testimony would not be true nor acceptable in the eyes of God...so Paul's own claims of being an apostle are therefore null and void
when Paul says "the Lord said", it is only his own witness that testifies to this...when Peter says "the Lord said", He quotes Jesus verbatim...Paul was never taught by Jesus, there is NO proof except for his own word
I will give you the example of Balaam, who was a prophet of God but lost his title as he became apostate...
the same thing happened with Paul...at first he was accepted by the church (but NEVER as an apostle) but a co-worker
He was later in direct opposition to the real apostles, especially Peter and James (just read Corinthians and you'll see that he makes scathing remarks against them calling them "super-apostles" in a derogatory way while boasting about himself as being only a humble servant)
if you can find one instance in the Bible where Paul's appointment as apostle was witnessed by two credible witnesses (a requirement for such matters), or where he is called an apostle by any other real apostle or being ordained by the mother church in Jerusalem (like Matthias was) , I will reconsider my earlier statements
I will read that No name , but I thought i just did prove Jesus by the Spirit of Prophecy SPOKE that Paul was the chosen vessel to bear Jesus name to the Gentiles and Jews alike ?? :sigh:
so Ananias vision was a false one to eh ?
Act 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord. And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name
they way i see it , we are all in the house of Judas / Judah FIRST , its divided
in to the Body of Christ / the living WORD ...
QuotePaul was never chosen as apostle by anyone...the claim to apostle is all his own...the newly chosen apostle by God and the 11 to replace Judas was Matthias.
First, if we denounce Paul's testimony of what what he claims to be we must also denounce his teachings, because if he claims to be an apostle but isn't an apostle then he is a liar and untrustworthy and thus his writtings are uncreditable.
So if Paul isn't an apostle then his books must likewise be excluded.
Second;
Quotethe newly chosen apostle by God and the 11 to replace Judas was Matthias
This was not God, this was Peter's idea, and then they threw dice. If I gather a group of friends and say God knows the hearts of us, let us throw dice and whoever they fall upon by number then they will be the chosen leaders. That's not God that's me throwing dice.
If Matthias fulfilled this role then Paul was uneeded. However there is an example of this previously laid out in scripture. Abraham and Sarah. God told them that He would give them a child, so they supposed that if Abraham lay with Hagar, Sarah's maid, that through her God would fulfill His promise. They themselves tried to fulfill the promise of God, Peter and his group were no different. They knew the position of apostle needed to be filled and supposed they could throw lots to make it happen.
Even though Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Hagar, wasn't the promised child he was still greatly blessed, but it was through Issac that God progressed His promise through.
Even though Matthias was brought in via works, Paul was the one God chose to work through.
Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2010, 07:47:08 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2010, 02:26:39 PM
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 13, 2010, 06:35:24 AMMany Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?
I still go back to Jesus telling the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones...Judas was one of the 12 standing there hearing His voice on that day. :bigGrin:
OTOH I can find no place where it's said there are only 12 judges...
12 tribes. 12 thrones, 12 gates, etc.
But not the number of judges. => Theoretically it can be 5, 12, 13 or 55 judges. (including Judas)?????
Often people always speak about "the 12". Obviously that's not the number of people that were always present.
Otherwise Matthias and Paul couldn't be considered
KJVMat 19:28 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJVLuk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
One of the requirements to sit on the throne to judge was always being with Jesus. Doesn't that mean whenever we read something like: Jesus said to the 12. Jesus went to the 12. Etc there were always the 12 + Paul + Matthias?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 28, 2010, 10:22:07 AM
One of the requirements to sit on the throne to judge was always being with Jesus.
Not so if we consider all of the New Testament. It would seem normal Christians will judge a whole lot more than just the 12 tribes.
1 Corinthians 6:2 "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, matters of this life?
Also see Rev. 3:21
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 28, 2010, 10:22:07 AM
Doesn't that mean whenever we read something like: Jesus said to the 12. Jesus went to the 12. Etc there were always the 12 + Paul + Matthias?
Not Paul, but it's clear to me that Matthias was with the 12 most the time [all of it according to Acts 1:21]. Which I will agree was a requirement to take the apostleship Judas once had.
Quote from: whome? on March 28, 2010, 12:41:43 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 28, 2010, 10:22:07 AM
One of the requirements to sit on the throne to judge was always being with Jesus.
Not so if we consider all of the New Testament. It would seem normal Christians will judge
144.000?
Quote from: Dallas on March 26, 2010, 06:59:12 PM
First, if we denounce Paul's testimony of what what he claims to be we must also denounce his teachings, because if he claims to be an apostle but isn't an apostle then he is a liar and untrustworthy and thus his writtings are uncreditable.
So if Paul isn't an apostle then his books must likewise be excluded.
exactly...and that is the reason why all the churches in Asia minor rejected him...and still does to this day...the descendants of the apostolic churches still does, even to this day they reckon his writings as "edifying" at most
QuoteSecond;
Quotethe newly chosen apostle by God and the 11 to replace Judas was Matthias
This was not God, this was Peter's idea, and then they threw dice. If I gather a group of friends and say God knows the hearts of us, let us throw dice and whoever they fall upon by number then they will be the chosen leaders. That's not God that's me throwing dice.
please go read the Scriptures again...it was not by dice they chose, but by lot after praying to God to reveal this to the 11 apostles. God gave the apostles and ONLY the apostles the right to bind/loose things in heaven and earth.
It is senseless to continue arguing the case for or against Paul, as many before me has done this already...I can tell you however that I have found the "tares amongst the wheat", and it was difficult at first to let go of Paul's teachings by I've found numerous contradictions to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles (the 12 chosen not the self-appointed one)...but that is a choice I'm willing to take...if I say I'm a Christian, then I should follow Christs' teaching which came out the mouth of himself and his appointed apostles...I really do NOT need anything more
Quote from: whome? on March 28, 2010, 12:41:43 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 28, 2010, 10:22:07 AM
One of the requirements to sit on the throne to judge was always being with Jesus.
Not so if we consider all of the New Testament. It would seem normal Christians will judge a whole lot more than just the 12 tribes.
1 Corinthians 6:2 "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, matters of this life?
Also see Rev. 3:21
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 28, 2010, 10:22:07 AM
Doesn't that mean whenever we read something like: Jesus said to the 12. Jesus went to the 12. Etc there were always the 12 + Paul + Matthias?
Not Paul, but it's clear to me that Matthias was with the 12 most the time [all of it according to Acts 1:21]. Which I will agree was a requirement to take the apostleship Judas once had.
yes, Paul said that in Corinthians...go find where Jesus said we'll judge the angels...or that any other than the 12 appointed apostles would judge Israel...
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 29, 2010, 09:39:58 AM
Quote from: whome? on March 28, 2010, 12:41:43 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 28, 2010, 10:22:07 AM
One of the requirements to sit on the throne to judge was always being with Jesus.
Not so if we consider all of the New Testament. It would seem normal Christians will judge
144.000?
LOL, I have no idea on the number. It reads as if it could be all Christians.
Quote from: noname on March 29, 2010, 10:34:06 AM
yes, Paul said that in Corinthians...go find where Jesus said we'll judge the angels...or that any other than the 12 appointed apostles would judge Israel...
Pauls words are scripture (2 Peter 3:15,16) and are good enough for me. But it can be inferred from Jesus to. Here are some of the places; Rev. 3:21, Luke 22:30 (Judas was already gone here, see John 13:30), Matt. 24:47, Matt. 19:28,29.
I can't even see how Luke 22:30 and Matt. 19:28 are being limited to the apostles since Acts 1:22,23 tell us that Matthias and Barsabas was there to.
Quote from: whome? on March 29, 2010, 12:23:24 PM
Pauls words are scripture (2 Peter 3:15,16) and are good enough for me. But it can be inferred from Jesus to. Here are some of the places; Rev. 3:21, Luke 22:30 (Judas was already gone here, see John 13:30), Matt. 24:47, Matt. 19:28,29.
I can't even see how Luke 22:30 and Matt. 19:28 are being limited to the apostles since Acts 1:22,23 tell us that Matthias and Barsabas was there to.
Unsure about Luke 22:30?
Luke 22:14 When the hour came, Jesus and his
apostles reclined at the table.
QuotePauls words are scripture (2 Peter 3:15,16) and are good enough for me.
first, 2 Peter is generally accepted amongst most scholars to be a "pseudograph", ie a book written after it was claimed to be, in other words, not in Peter's time and not by him...this book has been disputed since the early days of Christianity
second, do you know the requirements for adding to Scripture?
it must be done by a true prophet who's prophecies have been tested.
"Only a true prophet from God can add text to the Bible. (Deut. 18:15.) The Bible itself lays out the tests for such authorized additions
to the Bible. These tests are spelled out in Deuteronomy chs. 4, 12, 13 & 18. A key test is that no prophet could be legitimate who tried to "diminish" (subtract) any command previously given. (Deut. 4:2; 12:32 (quoted in inset).) This was true even if they had "sign and wonders that came to pass." (Deut.13:1-5.) This is reiterated in Isaiah 8:20.
example - Paul's Words Are Not Always Prescient:
Paul Predicts Loss of Life
Acts 27:10
[A]nd said unto them, Sirs, I perceive (theoreo, perceive with the eyes, discern) that
the voyage will be with injury and much loss, not only
of the lading and the ship, but also of our lives.
Paul Predicts No Loss of Life
Acts 27:22-24
(22) And now I exhort you to be of good cheer; for
there shall be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship. (23) For there stood by me this night an angel of the God whose I am, whom also I serve, (24) saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must stand before Caesar: and lo, God hath granted thee all them that sail with thee.
in the passages above "prophet" Paul clearly contradicts himself
Quoteplease go read the Scriptures again...it was not by dice they chose, but by lot after praying to God to reveal this to the 11 apostles.
What do you think casting lots is? It is the Hebrew equivelent of flipping a coin, rolling dice, drawing straws...in the old testament they used the Urim and Thummin to "cast lots" and they were nothing more than gem stones (Josephus jewish historian).
QuoteIt is senseless to continue arguing the case for or against Paul, as many before me has done this already...I can tell you however that I have found the "tares amongst the wheat", and it was difficult at first to let go of Paul's teachings by I've found numerous contradictions to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles (the 12 chosen not the self-appointed one)...but that is a choice I'm willing to take...if I say I'm a Christian, then I should follow Christs' teaching which came out the mouth of himself and his appointed apostles...I really do NOT need anything more
Guess you also have to denounce Peter also since Peter openly supports Paul and his teachings.
Passage 2 Peter 3:14-16 "14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
QuoteI've found numerous contradictions to the teachings of Jesus
Where? Also where are you getting this info from?
Quoteyes, Paul said that in Corinthians...go find where Jesus said we'll judge the angels...or that any other than the 12 appointed apostles would judge Israel...
-noname
Matthew 19:27 "Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" 28 And Jesus said to them, "
Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 "But many who are first will be last; and the last, first."
deleted
noname-
Tertullian also quotes Paul to establish his beliefs about the delays of the antichrist. He quotes Paul's 2 Thessalonians to prove that Rome being in power stops the Antichrist from being revealed.
So if your source is how you denounce Pauls authority and that very source uses Paul's teachings there is quite the contridiction.
If Paul is false and needs to be rejected you can't also use Paul's writting to prove you ideas.
" 'For that day shall not come, unless indeed there first come a falling away,' he [Paul] means indeed of this present empire, 'and that man of sin be revealed,' that is to say, Antichrist, 'the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or religion; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, affirming that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was with you, I used to tell you these things? And now ye know what detaineth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way.' What obstacles is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into the ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."
From his book, On The Ressurection chapter 24
deleted
Against Marcion Book One
Chapter 14. All Portions of Creation Attest the Excellence of the Creator, Whom Marcion Vilifies. His Inconsistency Herein Exposed. Marcion's Own God Did Not Hesitate to Use the Creator's Works in Instituting His Own Religion.
Now, when you make merry with those minuter animals, which their glorious Maker has purposely endued with a profusion of instincts and resources, — thereby teaching us that greatness has its proofs in lowliness,
just as (according to the apostle) there is power even in infirmity 2 Corinthians 12:5 — imitate, if you can
QuoteMarcion already claimed in the early 100s that only Paul's gospel was the real one
Tertullian in 5 books totally floors his arguments
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03125.htm
Don't know what you are talking about noname.
According to Tertullian Paul is an apostle!
You really need to read book five, you told me to read Against Marcion, well maybe you need to re-read it because
Tertullian uses Paul's teaching and constantly quotes Paulin order to despute Marcion. He even devotes the entire book 5 to prove that Paul is an apostle and agrees with the rest of scripture!!
Polycarp Clament seemened also to like Paul...
http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/justification/justify_12.htm
willieH: Hi Syndicated... :welcome: to TM...
Quote from: Syndicated on March 26, 2010, 01:49:14 AM
I understand the part about mankind betraying God, hence being able to be called 'Traitors', however...
Quote from: willieHLet him that is WITHOUT SIN (which is "BETRAYAL" to the COMMAND of GOD, and which "betrayal" resulted in the DEATH of JESUS CHRIST), ...cast the 1st stone at the "traitor", ...JUDAS...
Quote from: Syndicated on March 26, 2010, 01:49:14 AMI thought that Jesus stated this to the crowds that were about to stone an adultress woman, not at Judas... I don't understand how that statement can be made in reference to Judas.
Why not? The
WORD dispenses with ALL (unjust) JUDGES except himself, and in the
GRACE of the
WORD, is found forgiveness for that which deserves no forgiveness... (the unjust - both the doer of deeds and the "JUDGES" of those deeds)
The statement made to the Pharisees was making a point to ALL sinners, which propose judgment of another sinners ...SIN...
JUDAS actually FULFILLED a prophecy the
WORD made of him --
Psalm 41:9 / Acts 1:16 / John 13:18 -- so did he really have a choice to abstain? I think
NOT... What is WRITTEN in God's
WORD shall not be CHANGED by ANY MAN... it shall be FULFILLED.
He could NOT have done anything other than that which he DID, for the
WORD had "written" of him, his destiny... and the Scriptures CANNOT BE BROKEN --
John 10:35Quote from: Syndicated on March 26, 2010, 01:49:14 AMAlso, I understood that the phrase 'Without Sin' meant being blameless in ANY aspect, not just to betray the command of God.
FIRST -- the passage (one of my favorites, for I have written a song about it) that you refer to, does NOT mention being "blameless" --
John 8:3-11 -- It notes to them any
WITHOUT SIN (essentially the same as "blameless", but specific in reference to
sin)
KJV --
John 8:7 --
so when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them: he that is WITHOUT SIN among you, let him first cast a stone at her.NASB --
7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is WITHOUT SIN among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."NIV --
7 But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is WITHOUT SIN, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."ESV --
7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, (A) "Let him who is WITHOUT SIN among you(B) be the first to throw a stone at her."ASV --
7 But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is WITHOUT SIN among you, let him first cast a stone at her.SECOND -- If you have BETRAYED the COMMAND of GOD -- which is conveyed by HIS
WORD... then you have BETRAYED ...HIS
WORD... and are therefore
NOT "blameless" and NOT "
without sin"
Quote from: Syndicated on March 26, 2010, 01:49:14 AMCan you clarify that for me? I don't think I understand what it is you're trying to convey here.
Hope what I have noted helps you understand what I am trying to convey. :thumbsup:
What JUDAS did was fulfill prophecy... How can that be considered by another as an act which is unacceptable?
GOD
decided the "fate" or "destiny" of JUDAS, by writing of him, that destiny, in the ETERNAL
WORD... not JUDAS...
And as I have maintained within this discussion... WITHOUT JUDAS (or someone like him)... we would not have SALVATION, for his act of BETRAYAL was necessary for the plan to go forth, which was WRITTEN of
CHRIST and His redeeming sacrifice for US... :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: noname on March 29, 2010, 01:20:57 PM
Quote from: whome? on March 29, 2010, 12:23:24 PM
Pauls words are scripture (2 Peter 3:15,16) and are good enough for me. But it can be inferred from Jesus to. Here are some of the places; Rev. 3:21, Luke 22:30 (Judas was already gone here, see John 13:30), Matt. 24:47, Matt. 19:28,29.
I can't even see how Luke 22:30 and Matt. 19:28 are being limited to the apostles since Acts 1:22,23 tell us that Matthias and Barsabas was there to.
Unsure about Luke 22:30?
Luke 22:14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table.
QuotePauls words are scripture (2 Peter 3:15,16) and are good enough for me.
first, 2 Peter is generally accepted amongst most scholars to be a "pseudograph", ie a book written after it was claimed to be, in other words, not in Peter's time and not by him...this book has been disputed since the early days of Christianity
second, do you know the requirements for adding to Scripture?
it must be done by a true prophet who's prophecies have been tested.
"Only a true prophet from God can add text to the Bible. (Deut. 18:15.) The Bible itself lays out the tests for such authorized additions
to the Bible. These tests are spelled out in Deuteronomy chs. 4, 12, 13 & 18. A key test is that no prophet could be legitimate who tried to "diminish" (subtract) any command previously given. (Deut. 4:2; 12:32 (quoted in inset).) This was true even if they had "sign and wonders that came to pass." (Deut.13:1-5.) This is reiterated in Isaiah 8:20.
example - Paul's Words Are Not Always Prescient:
Paul Predicts Loss of Life
Acts 27:10
[A]nd said unto them, Sirs, I perceive (theoreo, perceive with the eyes, discern) that the voyage will be with injury and much loss, not only
of the lading and the ship, but also of our lives.
Paul Predicts No Loss of Life
Acts 27:22-24
(22) And now I exhort you to be of good cheer; for there shall be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship. (23) For there stood by me this night an angel of the God whose I am, whom also I serve, (24) saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must stand before Caesar: and lo, God hath granted thee all them that sail with thee.
in the passages above "prophet" Paul clearly contradicts himself
Using this passage without verse 18 and 19 etc and the crux of it
is kind of deceptive to me
Its the Lord who showed Paul there would be no loss of Life only loss on the ship
Kind of does
not contradict anything :sigh:
10 "Men," he said,
"I believe there is trouble ahead if we go on—shipwreck, loss of cargo, and danger to our lives as well." 11 But the officer in charge of the prisoners
listened more to the ship's captain and the owner than to Paul.
18 The next day, as gale-force winds continued to batter the ship, the crew began throwing the cargo overboard.
19 The following day they even took some of the ship's gear and threw it overboard.
20 The terrible storm raged for many days, blotting out the sun and the stars, until at last all hope was gone.
21 No one had eaten for a long time. Finally, Paul called the crew together and said, "Men, you should have listened to me in the first place and not left Crete. You would have avoided all this damage and loss.
22 But take courage! None of you will lose your lives, even though the ship will go down.
23 For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me, 24 and he said, 'Don't be afraid, Paul, for you will surely stand trial before Caesar! What's more, God in his goodness has granted safety to everyone sailing with you.' 25 So take courage!
For I believe God.
It will be just as he said. 26 But we will be shipwrecked on an island."
I find no counterdictions in Pauls writtings with the Lords teachings they are harmonious
Paul style of writing is that of men and angels that might be where
discernment is key to understanding them .
peace :icon_flower:
please see "Word studies" - paul vs Jesus
Quote from: noname on March 30, 2010, 03:25:19 PM
please see "Word studies" - paul vs Jesus
I have not found that study on the site JWOS
?http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/ (http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/)
Will look again and have read some stuff already , seems half baked to me
sorry to be so blunt
the carnal mind can percive lots of things as evil
I cannot find " word studies" Paul verses Jesus vs Paul ??? I only found this , is this what you meant ?
thanks for clearing this up in advance Noname
"The Problem of Paul to All Faiths From Following Jesus"
ok looking closer I found a whole page of discrediting Paul on that site
http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/Recommended-Reading/recommendedreading.html (http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/Recommended-Reading/recommendedreading.html)
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7977.0 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7977.0)
QuoteWill look again and have read some stuff already , seems half baked to me
sorry to be so blunt
the carnal mind can percive lots of things as evil
one can only say something's half baked after examining the whole argument...not true?
Quote from: noname on March 30, 2010, 04:39:49 PM
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7977.0 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7977.0)
QuoteWill look again and have read some stuff already , seems half baked to me
sorry to be so blunt
the carnal mind can percive lots of things as evil
one can only say something's half baked after examining the whole argument...not true?
fair enough noname ,
I do hope we can reason together with the Lord Jesus in our midst :HeartThrob:
Hello noname-
It is quite clear that the guy writing these things has very little bible understanding. By trying to compare what Jesus said to what Paul said on a basis that the sacrifice hadn't taken place, when in fact the sacrifice TOOK place.
Before Jesus died He was a prophet under the law who preached the law to the Jew. For the Jew entered into an agreement in Exodus 19, Jesus was charging the Jew with failure to meet their side of the agreement. Jesus sacrifice brought an end to that agreement forever changing that structure. The Law that Moses brought was in accord with that agreement, when that agreement ended so did that law.
A new agreement was then established, it was not like the first one, the one Jesus had to speak of. Jesus had to speak of it becuase He was talking to Jews who were under that agreement.
The arguments I have read on the web site you supplied are all based on lack of knowledge on the scriptures as a whole. Read David Chilton's Paradise restored and David Chilton's Days of Veneance. They will greatly help you put things together, and he references true bible scholars, and church Father's. It appears to me that you heard some things, saw how it may appear as such...take some more time and treat yourself to these books. They are free on the net.
It has become obvious to me you are caught up in something unhealty, without trying to figure it out I'll leave you to it, but here are the books....read them, I have read yours.
http://www.commentary.net/freebooks/docs/a_pdfs/dcpr.pdf
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1987_chilton_days-of-vengeance.html
IMO, if one understands the flow of scripture, to whom what was primarily written - what and who much of Jesus' earthy ministry was addressing (pre-cross/age of Law), what occurred in 70 AD as fulfillment, the ushering in of the age of grace of which Paul declared (Israel set aside for a season until the time of the Gentiles fulfilled), then much of this is resolved. It's rightly dividing the Word of truth.
QuoteIMO, if one understands the flow of scripture, to whom what was primarily written - what and who much of Jesus' earthy ministry was addressing (pre-cross/age of Law), what occurred in 70 AD as fulfillment, the ushering in of the age of grace of which Paul declared (Israel set aside for a season until the time of the Gentiles fulfilled), then much of this is resolved. It's rightly dividing the Word of truth.
Wow?!?!?
Jabcat? Are we actually going to agree on something?!!? :mlaugh: :mlaugh:
Don't know how much of a habit we can make it :laughing7:
So is Judas better or worse off than being born now?
QuoteSo is Judas better or worse off than being born now?
Some days do you feel as though it would have been better not to get out of bed? Do you have weeks where it seemed it would have been better you wouldn't have been born?
The answer is yes, because of the present suffering we would submit to not exsisting. The suffering Judas will go through will be harder than any other. For how hard is it for the common man to accept the works of Christ in denying himself.
How hard is it going to be for Jimmy Swagart to accept the fullness of the goodnews, for he would be completley shamed in his own eyes for such a remark.
But Judas, who is well aware that it was him to betrayed Jesus, now has to face him as a lawless jew, a sinful man and Jesus's personal betrayer.
The present suffering that Judas will undertake will be unthinkable for anybody. We who are so vain arguing with our ability to forgive and love another enough, Judas must face the man, the Son and the God he betrayed to recieve forgiveness....yes it easily would be better for him that he would not have been born. That being said, he who has been forgiven little loves little but he who has been forgiven much, loves much....
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 13, 2010, 06:35:24 AM
Mark 14:21 (King James Version)
21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Many Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
Jesus said His words were spirit. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit , and [they] are life.jn6.63
IMO Jesus is saying His words are spiritual.
The Son of Man may be that 'Divine' in all of us. Like Adam in the garden. Innocence. This indeed goes (Adam eating the fruit).
Woe to him (the man of sin, the carnal mind man, the old man nature that was in operation in Adam/man before 'he' ate of the tree).
Ultimately the 'man of sin' is crushed by the 'Divine man' thus it would have been good for 'that man' to not have been born but in Gods overall plan it is ideal that 'that man' was born.
Just pondering.
cp
QuoteIt is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit , and [they] are life
QuoteIMO Jesus is saying His words are spiritual.
This is exactlly howcome people shouldn't read a language they don't know. Ancient Elizabeathen is dead, let it be dead and read something more updated.
Jesus is saying, "It is the spirit that gives life, your ability to produce life through your works doesn't gain you anything. What I teach you are spiritual things, so that you will have life."
Hey Dallas, so many of your words really move my spirit so I would be interested in your comments about how I described what we are discussing here.
Am I way off base here? I can take criticism. Coming from such a one as you I would consider it good.
cp
QuoteJesus said His words were spirit. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit , and [they] are life.jn6.63
IMO Jesus is saying His words are spiritual.
The Son of Man may be that 'Divine' in all of us. Like Adam in the garden. Innocence. This indeed goes (Adam eating the fruit).
Woe to him (the man of sin, the carnal mind man, the old man nature that was in operation in Adam/man before 'he' ate of the tree).
Ultimately the 'man of sin' is crushed by the 'Divine man' thus it would have been good for 'that man' to not have been born but in Gods overall plan it is ideal that 'that man' was born.
Just pondering
Context is the underlying key to understanding the bible. You can't overlay different doctrines over something to understand it. It must be interpreted based upon the current texts writting. The whole Judas discussion can't be applied to the garden as a simile, or something to combine. It seems to me you are picking doctrines and combining them to create a new one to suit the moment.
Thanks. I will consider what you wrote.
I see the Bible as one whole, not divided segments. It is a spiritual book that transcends time and space.
cp
QuoteThanks. I will consider what you wrote.
I see the Bible as one whole, not divided segments. It is a spiritual book that transcends time and space.
Absolutley it is, but it has to be taken for what it is also, literature and not some mystical magical book. It was written by men for men so that men would understand it.
I think many people don't have the foundation for something and it opens the doors to self question but with no one able to answer it for them the decide what they want. That unfoutunatley drives our churches and our interpretors, all with some kind of religous slant to it.
The bible is a historical document written by people who lived through it. It is not a gateway to the unknown. What transends time and space isn't it's depth and ever changing meaning, but rather the simple truth of God's story of reconcilling man back to Him. It won't matter who reads it or when the message will always be one of relevance and need.
Not to deep understanding, but to bring people back into fellowship with God...and each other.
I just wanted to add that it is becoming more refreshing and less frustrating to see all the different views of Gods word. It is amazing how so many different things can be drawn from the written word.
I'm glad it is ultimately God who is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, otherwise we would all be forever going in a zillion directions.
Dallas, you have good insights and I enjoy reading your posts along with the others.
cp
I will admit now that I did not read all the posts, but the question
"Judas better if he had not been born?" is interesting. I contend that if should Judas not have been an obedient servant, the whole of God's plan and purpose would have been, no contest.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, a servant is not greater than his lord; neither one that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17 If ye know these things, blessed are ye if ye do them.
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me.
Joh 13:19 From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
Joh 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Joh 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in the spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Joh 13:22 The disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
Joh 13:23 There was at the table reclining in Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Joh 13:24 Simon Peter therefore beckoneth to him, and saith unto him, Tell us who it is of whom he speaketh.
Joh 13:25 He leaning back, as he was, on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
Joh 13:26 Jesus therefore answereth, He it is, for whom I shall dip the sop, and give it him. So when he had dipped the sop, he taketh and giveth it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
Joh 13:27 And after the sop, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, What thou doest, do quickly.
Without the obedience of Judas, Jesus would not have been delivered up.
:cloud9: What I also find interesting about that scene is that it was the custom to give the first "sop" as an honor to a special guest.
I also think about how He said He only spoke what He heard the Father speak, so technically Him saying that one would betray Him could be construed as a command of the Father who spoke everything into existance.
And then Satan entered into Judas AFTER He told him what thou doest, do quickly. Makes me wonder if Judas could NOT have done it, without the addition of Satan. Satan must left him afterwards, for him to have felt repentance. My :2c: Blessings.....
willieH: Hi Rebecca... :hithere:
I just saw this post, and all I can say is ...WOW!
Quote from: Cardinal on May 08, 2010, 05:16:41 PM
:cloud9: What I also find interesting about that scene is that it was the custom to give the first "sop" as an honor to a special guest.
:omg: ...WOW!
QuoteI also think about how He said He only spoke what He heard the Father speak, so technically Him saying that one would betray Him could be construed as a command of the Father who spoke everything into existance.
:omg: ...WOW!
...willieH :cloud9:
:cloud9: Something to reflect on, isn't it? Blessings....
Reflecting on Scriptures, especially John 13:27, it may have taken Judas by surprise.
Jesus says these things must be to fullfill scripture
but nevertheless better for him to have flung a millstone around his neck and cast into the sea
The betrayer could of been any of the disciples, but Judas was the one who decided to do it, by exchanging him for 30 pieces of '' shiekels' of silver he also decided to betray Jesus with a kiss.
So according to the universalist position, or at least from my point of view as an universalist, it would be better for him to be cast into the sea and out of sight, not to escape eternal hell, as some Christians interpret, but because of the eternal shame he will have to endure, when he is raised from the dead and becomes face to face with the risen Jesus Christ. A far cry from the meek and lowly Jesus he was accustomed to when he was upon the Earth as a disciple.
Due to his shame for what he has done im not sure that Judas will desire to be a partaker of Christs sacrifice and so may settle for eternal death.
The prophecies concerning Judas are contained in the book of psalms I think.
Hey TT,
when you describe Judas I see you describing me and every other person I know. I have done as bad and worse towards Jesus, in Adam, as Judas has. Do you understand what I am saying here?
cp
Have you betrayed, the son of man into death?
Confess your sins and he shall cleanse you of all unrighteousness
kiss the son lest he be angry
Blessed are they who have not seen yet believed
Those who confess now will be cleansed and not have to walk naked and they see their shame
The blood of Jesus washes away all sin and God promises that it will not even come to his remembrance, but for those who are not washed their sin will be laid bare before all
For there is nothing hid that will not be made known
It is possible to die in your sins as Jesus speaks of in the Gospel, which means Judas his sin will be made bare before all, not a pleasant experience for him I imagine.
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 05:45:47 PM
Have you betrayed, the son of man into death?
Yes I have, in Adam. Have you?
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 05:45:47 PM
Confess your sins and he shall cleanse you of all unrighteousness
kiss the son lest he be angry
I have and continue to do so, in Christ.
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 05:45:47 PM
Blessed are they who have not seen yet believed
Those who confess now will be cleansed and not have to walk naked and they see their shame
The blood of Jesus washes away all sin and God promises that it will not even come to his remembrance, but for those who are not washed their sin will be laid bare before all
For there is nothing hid that will not be made known
Amen, exactly as it should be.
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 05:45:47 PM
It is possible to die in your sins as Jesus speaks of in the Gospel, which means Judas his sin will be made bare before all, not a pleasant experience for him I imagine.
I did die in my sins, in Adam, and it is not a pleasant experience.
TT, have you ever perceived yourself as in Adam in any way at any time?
cp?
Have you betrayed, the son of man into death?
Yes I have, in Adam. Have you?
Claypot
Adam was a sinner for he obeyed not the voice of the Lords and ate of the tree of good and evil.
Not much of a sin as such, but after eating the tree of good and evil, he would have more knowledge of evil and probably ended up doing more sins.
God planted that tree of good and evil in the garden, and knew what he was doing, he foreknew that Christ would have to end up sacrificing himself on the cross for the sins of man, but he put that tree there anyway. For all things work together for the good, now that we have the knowledge and experience of sin, we can either prefer it more than God or choose God over the sins, a great test that God has given to all men, and also proves that his son Jesus is obedient to the father even unto the cross, unlike Lucifier, who rebelled against the father and went his own way. Also the cross proves to all creation in existence the great length and breadth of Gods love.
We have to pay the penalty of Adams disobedience, but Adam himself did not betray Jesus to death.
We are all accountable for our own sins and sometimes reap our fathers, father, even 4 generations.
The iniquities of the fathers shall be laid upon the sons
Diseases tend to pass on to generation to generation according to the Doctors and the bible says that it is because of the sins of the previous generations.
TT, have you ever perceived yourself as in Adam in any way at any time?
cp
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 08:36:59 PM
We have to pay the penalty of Adams disobedience, but Adam himself did not betray Jesus to death.
If Adam did not, who did?
Is not Jesus the Truth and the Way and did not Adam crucify Him when disobeying God? Is not Jesus Obedience personified and did not Adam crucify Him as such?
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 08:36:59 PM
We are all accountable for our own sins and sometimes reap our fathers, father, even 4 generations.
The iniquities of the fathers shall be laid upon the sons
Diseases tend to pass on to generation to generation according to the Doctors and the bible says that it is because of the sins of the previous generations.
The sins and victories over sin from way back to Adam are mine. I acknowledge this because as in Adam all sin, in Christ all are made alive. I am in Adam. I am an individual in Adam.
Do you understand this?
cp
The sins and victories over sin from way back to Adam are mine. I acknowledge this because as in Adam all sin, in Christ all are made alive. I am in Adam. I am an individual in Adam.
Do you understand this?
claypot
Whatever, I think you are overcomplicating things, you are claiming Adams sin as yours, do that if you wish, but there is no scripture I know of which says we must confess Adams sins. From my understanding, we are only blood relatives of Adam and I don't remember any old testament prophet confessing Adams sins. The bible says we are accountable for our own sins and sometimes, our fathers and sometimes the nations.
The scripture that says in Adam we all die but in Christ we shall all be made alive, I believe it is the reference that our first model human prototype or seed was unsuccessfull, but our second seed, Christ, Abrahams, seed that would bless all nations, is Christ, who unlike Adam, succeeded. So once we are raised from the dead at the last trumpet we are no longer of the Earth and are similar to the flesh and blood model Adam, but now we are made spiritual just like the angels in likeness to our new prototype model, Jesus Christ.
Whats important from this thread is that one doesn't find yourself, having pity on Judas and end up hurting Jesus our Lord.
Jesus himself, said that it would be better for that man not to be born.
Now if you make up excuses for Judas behaviour or pretend that the Lord was not displeased with him, then one could be upseting our Lord Jesus Christ.
Judas betrayed Jesus into death for a pathetic amount of money, and the psalms quote that Jesus saw Judas as his familiar friend that betrayed him.
Regardless of the philosphy of how the plan was carried out, whether it was Satan's, God or Judas, one must not overlook the scriptures, which clearly point out that Jesus was upset with Judas.
If one has to much concern for Judas, why is that?
Should we be more concerned about Jesus our Lord and let him be the righteous judge
I see so much of 'Judas' in me and others but, praise be to God, I see much of Jesus within too. I do not see an 'us and them' scenario nor do I believe it is in Scripture nor the heart of God. This is all a 'God' thing and in Him we live and move and have our being as some poets say.
I have no pity on Judas. 'He' must go, Jesus must live and he will and He will according to the desire of God according to the Scriptures, and that is what is important.
So simple, not complicated as you seem to think according to your comment.
Judas betrayed Jesus for a pathetic amount of money as you say and I have betrayed Jesus for much less in my day. I rest in peace only because of Grace.
cp
Quote from: claypot on June 16, 2010, 06:02:27 AMJudas betrayed Jesus for a pathetic amount of money as you say and I have betrayed Jesus for much less in my day. I rest in peace only because of Grace.
The price of slave. A deeper meaning I think.
:cloud9: Thirty pieces of silver, 30 fold realm/outer court. They have already betrayed Him by refusing to press in to 60 fold, ect. Blessings....
Card, you're way beyond be as usual but maybe you might care to explain a bit and I'll see if this lump of clay (me) can glean anything from your usual very thought filled words!
cp
THE FRUIT ARE REAPED WHERE THE SEED IS SOWN.
:cloud9: Check out the Tabernacle sticky thread CP, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Too much on there to repost here......blessings....
Thanks.
cp
Just going over this last page of posts and mighty fine some of them and a blessing but I can no longer use the word betrayed, it sounds so hatefu;l and when I read the words in John, I cannot hear Jesus speaking harshly of Judas. I can agree with Beloved Servant that Judas may even have been surprised. I like the rendering of Youngs
Joh 13:21 These things having said, Jesus was troubled in the spirit, and did testify, and said, `Verily, verily, I say to you, that one of you will deliver me
Joh 13:16 verily, verily, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his lord, nor an apostle greater than he who sent him;
Joh 13:18 not concerning you all do I speak; I have known whom I chose for myself;
Peace and Love Through Jesus as I pray to understand with the mind of Christ
And Claypot I can hear you.
willieH: Hi thinktank... :happygrin:
You don't know me well (been here for 8yrs or so), so let me preface myself... I speak bluntly. I do not mean any harm or disprespect in my words... just flat-out tell it like it is... :winkgrin:
:bgdance: To begin with, (though it is not popular), I am on the JUDAS cheerleading team... :laughing7: ...what he did was certainly not enviable... but definitely a MOST NECESSARY action, that was part of the plan to benefit us all!
You are more than welcome to disagree with what I say... :thumbsup: But know that it shall be accompanied by REASON... :dbook: :declare:
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 02:07:42 AM
Jesus says these things must be to fullfill scripture
If SCRIPTURE was being FULFILLED (which it was), then JUDAS was the one which the
WORD had already indicated... and had no "choice" to alter what was already noted by the
WORD.
Not ONE element of the life of
CHRIST was left up to "chance" or the "decisions" of men.
Scripture is NEVER on the -- "let's wait & see what men decide to do" program, or -- is NEVER based on "which disciple
decided to do this or that"...
It is an EXACT and PERFECT notation of what
WILL occur, within the doings of MEN --
Rom 9:16-17 -- Pharaoh didn't "decide" to continue the imprisonment of ISRAEL... GOD decided that he would continue their imprisonment... MOSES didn't "decide" to ask they be FREED... GOD decided that he would ask...
It can be said that in the notation I just presented, that PHARAOH was
RAISED by GOD to Glorify His name in the Earth... that JUDAS was just "as raised", and just as much a part of "Glorification" of God as was PHARAOH... :dontknow:
The WHOLE POINT being that MEN do NOT "decide" any portion, or indeed, the moment of DELIVERANCE... GOD alone "decides" ALL these things.
This is WHY
JESUS clearly stated that He did not
KNOW the day or hour of His return... for only GOD decides that moment, and no man, including
CHRIST, shall know of it.
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 02:07:42 AMThe betrayer could of been any of the disciples, but Judas was the one who decided to do it, by exchanging him for 30 pieces of " shiekels' of silver he also decided to betray Jesus with a kiss.
I completely disagree with this... "could have been" is something left to random chance, and is no more PERFECTLY foundational than is the "theory of Evolution" for life...
Those who are CHOSEN have had
faith AUTHORED in them, and
CHRIST KEEPS them from FALLING...
If one of FAITH, "falls" (which JUDAS "did"), then
CHRIST (the
WORD) CHOSE and decided that he should "fall", for He is the KEEPER of
FAITH --
Jude 24JESUS was not "waiting" to see WHO might "choose" to do this? He most certainly KNEW who was going to do it! :nod:
JUDAS did not have a "choice" in this matter... no more than PETER had a "choice" in being called "satan" or PAUL got slapped with blindness...
That which comes forth from the mouth of
CHRIST is UNCHANGING and CANNOT be altered ("could've been any of the disciples") --- for it is the totally EXACT, PERFECT, COMPLETE, and WONDERFUL
WORD of GOD Himself.
JUDAS was FULFILLING
EXACTLY what was WRITTEN specifically about
HIM, for HE was the one whichFULLFILLED the BETRAYAL, no other...
Though JUDAS is not "named by name" in the OT as the betrayer of
CHRIST... it IS noted the betrayal would come at the hands of a TRUSTED FRIEND --
Psalm 41:9 -- John 13:18The "name"
JESUS CHRIST is not even "found" in the OT... :Chinscratch:
The
fulfillment of HOLY PERFECTION is not within the ability of SINFUL MEN to perform... Only by the
DIRECTION of GOD, shall MAN "fulfill" Scripture which is the
WORD of GOD --
Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24Part of the Sacrifice of
CHRIST was dependent upon a CERTAIN MAN doing a CERTAIN THING at a CERTAIN TIME... this was not just something "idea" that just happened to "occur" to JUDAS... It was WRITTEN and had to be DONE EXACTLY as was WRITTEN... not because "Judas" decided to fink on
CHRIST.
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 02:07:42 AMSo according to the universalist position, or at least from my point of view as an universalist, it would be better for him to be cast into the sea and out of sight, not to escape eternal hell, as some Christians interpret, but because of the eternal shame he will have to endure, when he is raised from the dead and becomes face to face with the risen Jesus Christ. A far cry from the meek and lowly Jesus he was accustomed to when he was upon the Earth as a disciple.
Due to his shame for what he has done im not sure that Judas will desire to be a partaker of Christs sacrifice and so may settle for eternal death.
FIRST --- Please, bro I don't mean to be (too) sarcastic, but... Is that what YOU would do? "Choose" eternal death? :laughing7:
JUDAS has already faced his shame...
And the TRUTH is, that without JUDAS or someone JUST like him (a TRUSTED FRIEND), NONE of us would be saved! :sigh:
SECOND --- there IS no "eternal hell"... there isn't even a "temporary" one... HELL is a teaching of FEAR... FEAR has no part in LOVE and is CAST OUT by it --
1 John 4:18THIRD ---
CHRIST tasted DEATH for every man... including JUDAS... and no man "
settles" for anything.
ALL MEN ..."do"... as is written OF THEM, from the end of this realm to its beginning --
Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- which are (end & beginning), the SAME THING --
Rev 1:8Isaiah 46:10 --
DECLARING the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times, [the things] that are NOT [yet] DONE... saying MY COUNSEL shall stand... [the WORD] and I WILL DO ...all MY pleasureHow many things (before the beginning) were "
NOT done"? Is it not
EVERY "THING"? :dunno:
This Scripture is very CLEAR that
GOD is the ONE, actually "
DOING" --
ALL THESE THINGS... which is also clearly repeated in the NT ---
Eph 1:11 :afFro: pEAce be untaya, new bro... :Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on June 24, 2010, 11:23:38 PM
willieH: Hi thinktank... :happygrin:
You don't know me well (been here for 8yrs or so), so let me preface myself... I speak bluntly. I do not mean any harm or disprespect in my words... just flat-out tell it like it is... :winkgrin:
:bgdance: To begin with, (though it is not popular), I am on the JUDAS cheerleading team... :laughing7: ...what he did was certainly not enviable... but definitely a MOST NECESSARY action, that was part of the plan to benefit us all!
You are more than welcome to disagree with what I say... :thumbsup: But know that it shall be accompanied by REASON... :dbook: :declare:
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 02:07:42 AM
Jesus says these things must be to fullfill scripture
If SCRIPTURE was being FULFILLED (which it was), then JUDAS was the one which the WORD had already indicated... and had no "choice" to alter what was already noted by the WORD.
Not ONE element of the life of CHRIST was left up to "chance" or the "decisions" of men.
Scripture is NEVER on the -- "let's wait & see what men decide to do" program, or -- is NEVER based on "which disciple decided to do this or that"...
It is an EXACT and PERFECT notation of what WILL occur, within the doings of MEN -- Rom 9:16-17 -- Pharaoh didn't "decide" to continue the imprisonment of ISRAEL... GOD decided that he would continue their imprisonment... MOSES didn't "decide" to ask they be FREED... GOD decided that he would ask...
It can be said that in the notation I just presented, that PHARAOH was RAISED by GOD to Glorify His name in the Earth... that JUDAS was just "as raised", and just as much a part of "Glorification" of God as was PHARAOH... :dontknow:
The WHOLE POINT being that MEN do NOT "decide" any portion, or indeed, the moment of DELIVERANCE... GOD alone "decides" ALL these things.
This is WHY JESUS clearly stated that He did not KNOW the day or hour of His return... for only GOD decides that moment, and no man, including CHRIST, shall know of it.
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 02:07:42 AMThe betrayer could of been any of the disciples, but Judas was the one who decided to do it, by exchanging him for 30 pieces of " shiekels' of silver he also decided to betray Jesus with a kiss.
I completely disagree with this... "could have been" is something left to random chance, and is no more PERFECTLY foundational than is the "theory of Evolution" for life...
Those who are CHOSEN have had faith AUTHORED in them, and CHRIST KEEPS them from FALLING...
If one of FAITH, "falls" (which JUDAS "did"), then CHRIST (the WORD) CHOSE and decided that he should "fall", for He is the KEEPER of FAITH -- Jude 24
JESUS was not "waiting" to see WHO might "choose" to do this? He most certainly KNEW who was going to do it! :nod:
JUDAS did not have a "choice" in this matter... no more than PETER had a "choice" in being called "satan" or PAUL got slapped with blindness...
That which comes forth from the mouth of CHRIST is UNCHANGING and CANNOT be altered ("could've been any of the disciples") --- for it is the totally EXACT, PERFECT, COMPLETE, and WONDERFUL WORD of GOD Himself.
JUDAS was FULFILLING EXACTLY what was WRITTEN specifically about HIM, for HE was the one whichFULLFILLED the BETRAYAL, no other...
Though JUDAS is not "named by name" in the OT as the betrayer of CHRIST... it IS noted the betrayal would come at the hands of a TRUSTED FRIEND -- Psalm 41:9 -- John 13:18
The "name" JESUS CHRIST is not even "found" in the OT... :Chinscratch:
The fulfillment of HOLY PERFECTION is not within the ability of SINFUL MEN to perform... Only by the DIRECTION of GOD, shall MAN "fulfill" Scripture which is the WORD of GOD -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24
Part of the Sacrifice of CHRIST was dependent upon a CERTAIN MAN doing a CERTAIN THING at a CERTAIN TIME... this was not just something "idea" that just happened to "occur" to JUDAS... It was WRITTEN and had to be DONE EXACTLY as was WRITTEN... not because "Judas" decided to fink on CHRIST.
Quote from: thinktank on June 15, 2010, 02:07:42 AMSo according to the universalist position, or at least from my point of view as an universalist, it would be better for him to be cast into the sea and out of sight, not to escape eternal hell, as some Christians interpret, but because of the eternal shame he will have to endure, when he is raised from the dead and becomes face to face with the risen Jesus Christ. A far cry from the meek and lowly Jesus he was accustomed to when he was upon the Earth as a disciple.
Due to his shame for what he has done im not sure that Judas will desire to be a partaker of Christs sacrifice and so may settle for eternal death.
FIRST --- Please, bro I don't mean to be (too) sarcastic, but... Is that what YOU would do? "Choose" eternal death? :laughing7:
JUDAS has already faced his shame...
And the TRUTH is, that without JUDAS or someone JUST like him (a TRUSTED FRIEND), NONE of us would be saved! :sigh:
SECOND --- there IS no "eternal hell"... there isn't even a "temporary" one... HELL is a teaching of FEAR... FEAR has no part in LOVE and is CAST OUT by it -- 1 John 4:18
THIRD --- CHRIST tasted DEATH for every man... including JUDAS... and no man "settles" for anything.
ALL MEN ..."do"... as is written OF THEM, from the end of this realm to its beginning -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- which are (end & beginning), the SAME THING -- Rev 1:8
Isaiah 46:10 -- DECLARING the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times, [the things] that are NOT [yet] DONE... saying MY COUNSEL shall stand... [the WORD] and I WILL DO ...all MY pleasure
How many things (before the beginning) were "NOT done"? Is it not EVERY "THING"? :dunno:
This Scripture is very CLEAR that GOD is the ONE, actually "DOING" -- ALL THESE THINGS... which is also clearly repeated in the NT --- Eph 1:11
:afFro: pEAce be untaya, new bro... :Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Hello willie, thanks for the reply. What you said is true and scriptural, but still doesn't answer the question as to why Jesus , who is the truth, way and life said ' better for that man not to be born'
which is why I said maybe Judas would prefer eternal death if Truth himself said this. But if there is another truth to this I will welcome it.
I also think that God can set up events so that he is not limited by a man, namely Judas. But rather simply states that a familiar friend would betray him with a kiss. Jesus had lots of friends and any one of them could have done what Judas did, in fact it didn't even have to be one of the 12 that Jesus choose, unless I have missed something. So maybe Jesus did not expect one of his 12 to betray him.
Please tell me, if there's a scripture that says it must be one of the 12.
To me life is an open book, although some events must happen, such as the birth of Christ, other events are down to mans choices and that's one reason why the world we live in is full of destruction, God's will is that we prosper and be in good health, but mans sinfull living makes this difficult.
Joh 17:12 when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.
willieH: Hi Thinktank... :cloud9:
Thank you for your answers (btw... I used color, CAPS and other things as emphasis, so please dont be offended by my use of them! :mblush:)
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 12:46:20 AM
Hello willie, thanks for the reply. What you said is true and scriptural, but still doesn't answer the question as to why Jesus , who is the truth, way and life said ' better for that man not to be born'
which is why I said maybe Judas would prefer eternal death if Truth himself said this. But if there is another truth to this I will welcome it.
I have already addressed this earlier in this discussion in REPLY #57:
Quote from: willieH on March 18, 2010, 08:11:51 PM
willieH: Hi UC... :happygrin:
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 18, 2010, 05:18:46 AM
I still do not understand why the scripture says it would be better if Judas had not been born.
It does NOT say this... this is what YOU understand it to say...
This text is much like the one in which JESUS spoke about being "in PARADISE", to the thief... and like that passage, this one appears to be just as MISUNDERSTOOD...
JESUS told the thief that HE WOULD be in paradise, and that announcement came upon the day of their deaths, however NEITHER of them would be IN PARADISE on THAT DAY... JESUS had yet to spend his own prophesied, 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.
Though I am not entirely convinced, the following makes the most sense...
The text in question follows, and keep in mind that the references very possibly meant (where I have place brackets):
Mark 14:21 -- The Son of man indeed goeth as it is written of Him! but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! [JUDAS] good were it for that man [JESUS] if he [JUDAS] had never been born....
Why would GOD declare such a fate for JUDAS? What reason is found in this particular man which was NECESSARY for the plan to be realized, that GOD should CONDEMN Judas for doing what was NECESSARY? That is UNREASONABLE...
What makes sense, is that had JUDAS never been born, it would've been better for JESUS...
The preceeding words note that JESUS must go forth and DO that which was WRITTEN of Him -- "the Son of man indeed GOETH as IT IS WRITTEN of HIM" -- which was NOT a desireable pathway at all... But the great FAITH of CHRIST, carried Him forth faithfully to what was WRITTEN of Him... forsaking His own feelings which the words contained in saying "good were it for that man [JESUS/Son of man], that he [JUDAS] had never been BORN"... (to BETRAY Him)... :dontknow:
JESUS knew well before the betrayal, his pathway which CONTAINED the BETRAYAL, ...and HIS DEATH, and had expressed it elsewhere, well PRIOR to the betrayal -- Matt 16:21-23 -- and was certainly NOT looking forward to the experience, as He asked IF POSSIBLE for the "cup to pass" -- Matt 26:39 -- right after this verse -- Matt 26:24 -- under discussion concerning JUDAS... :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 12:46:20 AMI also think that God can set up events so that he is not limited by a man, namely Judas. But rather simply states that a familiar friend would betray him with a kiss. Jesus had lots of friends and any one of them could have done what Judas did, in fact it didn't even have to be one of the 12 that Jesus choose, unless I have missed something. So maybe Jesus did not expect one of his 12 to betray him.
No offense bro... but this whole
portion amounts to nothing but an unfounded and SPECULATIVE -- IMAGINARY scenario...
JUDAS was IN FACT, the one who DID this in REALITY, ...and there is NEVER VARIATION in both the MANIFESTATION of any part of PROPHECY
or its participants... which is WHY
CHRIST was compelled to FULFILL prophecy to the LETTER...
Your above words are simply a product of FICTIONAL IMAGINATION, which supposes other possibilities, which IN FACT, did NOT happen... and there is no basis upon which to found that those possibilities ever even existed.
It is my position that just as the LAW of God was WRITTEN in Stone... that ALL THINGS are so WRITTEN... For the only instance that GOD wrote was IN STONE... and He is UNCHANGING... so whenever IF EVER, He writes... then this metaphor and reality is that which we have to draw upon... not our own imaginations...
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 12:46:20 AMPlease tell me, if there's a scripture that says it must be one of the 12.
I do not need to do this, for the fact remains that it WAS one of the 12, therefore the
WORD was MANIFEST according to its OWN DIRECTIVE
DECLARATION of an EVENT that "had not yet been DONE" which was NOTED before ANYTHING in this realm had occured --
Isaiah 46:10 --
Because there are NO VARIATIONS in the
WORD --
James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 -- and BECAUSE the
WORD is that of which the "DECLARATION" noted in --
Isaiah 46:10 -- was COMPOSED, ...then the portion of the "DECLARATION" under discussion... had already noted that
JUDAS would be he which would
FULFILL the Prophecy of Scripture, for THAT is in FACT, what occured.
This was NOT according to SINNERS... rather was part of a HOLY and PERFECT agenda, which was DECLARED by
YHVH God...
Again, you are where you are with such things, and it is not my intention to demean you in any way... :friendstu:
You are welcome to agree or disagree with any and all of my findings if you so choose... however... There is NO Biblical foundation whatsoever for the observation of "CHANCE" as the agenda we are upon --- or that GOD is following along, DEALING with the "choices" and "agenda" of MAN by "working around us" and our amiss workings... :mnah:
We are ALL upon His ALMIGHTY AGENDA, and are about following the pathways HE directs --
Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- and HIS plan for each of us, ...
not the reverse... :nod:
Such extremely IMPORTANT facets as these ("WHO IN PARTICULAR", betrayed the Savior) are hardly to be compared as "according to chance" to a GOD which busily and EXACTLY --- "counts the hairs on our heads" or that "notices even the DEATH of one of innumerable Sparrows" --
Matt 10:29-30 -- not to mention that His detailed and PERFECT agenda not only keeps every STAR burning in its place, but He NAMES
each one as well!! --
Psalm 147:4This does not sound to me like a GOD which is
very interested in the DEATH of each "sparrow" --- is somehow completely
disinterested in who might be the
person to bring forth the DEATH of His ONLY Begotten Son?? ...Would You be as disinterested? If you are honest (and I assume you are), ...I really don't think that would be the case bro...
I truly cannot speak for
YOU, ...but if my ONLY SON... was going to be MURDERED... the
details of said proposed "murder" would be of IMMENSE interest to me. :dontknow:
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 12:46:20 AMTo me life is an open book, although some events must happen, such as the birth of Christ, other events are down to mans choices and that's one reason why the world we live in is full of destruction, God's will is that we prosper and be in good health, but mans sinfull living makes this difficult.
thinktank... "to me life is an open book" is contrary to GOD working ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11 -- as well as CONTRARY to the Declaration of this realm as noted in --
Isaiah 46:10 and
Rom 4:17You are welcome to embrace that ---
"to me life is an open book", but the Scriptures do not bear this out to be the TRUTH (as far as I have found)...
If this is so...
(1) please note where in Scripture it proposes that ---
"life is an open book"...
(2) As well as where it is noted in Scripture that ---
"some events must happen, such as the birth of Christ, other events are down to mans choices"I'll wait upon your answer... that is, if in truth these things ARE supported in the
WORD and you DO have foundation for them in the
WORD...
However, ...If you cannot produce Scripture which founds these ideas, then they are "extra-biblical" in origin... Whether they are
your ideas or
someone else's ideas.
pEACe :HeartThrob:
...willieH :cloud9:
wonderful.
God will was that Sodom be saved
But mans will to sin made that city destroyed, for God only desired one single righteous person to save it. See that GOD DESIRED, but man did not take heed and choose sin, therefore destruction
Likewise God Desired for Nineveh to be saved, but the people in Nineveh actually listened and repented and God in his mercy did not destroy Nineveh because of mans repentance. For even greater proof, man decides to sin later in Nineveh and God destroys Nineveh.
Religious leaders are allways saying God is in control etc. But God is in control the same way, that a parent is in conrol of wayward children, there is only so much control. The child is the one that decides, chooses his own fate, the parent wants the child to become a doctor, but the child wants to be a fireman, will the parent win?
The child chooses to scream, to be quiet, to walk, to talk, to move his left hand and his right hand, God can only influence us, not that he cannot control us, but that is not in his nature.
You see God has created us in his own image, we make choices in life and this holy book the bible tells us in advanced what choices are good and what choices lead to destruction.
That means that man can choose his own fate, even though God is the alpha and omega and knows the begining from the end, he does not know which choice we will make in certain conditions. He knows all things and knows every parameter and every potential decision you will ever make. Some choices God says are definite, because he knows where the person is in development and has calculated that the person is 100% likely to make that certain decision.
How many times have prophecies failed?
People get prophecies that they are going to get a promotion in work, but the prophecy was dependant on that person working hard and diligent and also seeking God. So the person works hard and diligent and does not get the job, they then think that the person who did the prophecy is a false prophet, but the reality was that the person failed in his task to seek God and missed out on a vital element.
God says Choose this day whom you will serve?
Willie, it is GODS will for man to be enjoying ourself and to be in good health and to seek him, but yet how many people do that?
If God writes everything in histroy then how can you answer a person who asks why did that earthquake happened?
Judas betrayed Jesus for he was desperate for money and Satan took advantage of his weakness, if he wasnt desperate for money, why betray him for money? and why betray him for only 30 pieces.
Maybe you are correct about God needing someone like Judas to fullfill scripture, but that doesn't mean that what I say is not true, both can be correct. For Jesus said
Woe to that man that betray me (which supports my idea) but nevertheless, scripture must be fullfilled (which supports your idea)
You said that my idea of Judas not wanting to live is just my imagination, you are correct and I did say that it is just a possibility, however when it comes to Judas being the betrayer I belive that God forknew in his eternal wisdom all the potential people that could have betrayed Jesus, and knew that Judas could be one of them.
In fact I liken God to one of those books that has an alternative ending, where God knows each and every ending, but we as people choose which path we go upon. I think that people have destinies, but the path to those destinies is varied and sometimes the destiny is shunned altogether and man goes his own way.
Maybe I am wrong, but the scriptures do imply that we have a choice in life and demonstrates Gods greatness, by giving all of us freedom of choice.
Hail, king Jesus, all hail the king
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMJudas betrayed Jesus for he was desperate for money and Satan took advantage of his weakness, if he wasnt desperate for money, why betray him for money? and why betray him for only 30 pieces.
30 pieces the price of a slave/servant. Why not 31 pieces? Or even a 100? The priest wanted to get rid of Jesus very badly. I'm sure they could afford 31 pieces. Why is the number of pieces mentioned? Does it have deeper meaning....?
QuoteMaybe I am wrong, but the scriptures do imply that we have a choice in life and demonstrates Gods greatness, by giving all of us freedom of choice.
NETPro 16:9 A person plans his course, but the LORD directs his steps.
Maybe we are just rats in a maze. There is only one exit. The rat can go any way he wants but obviously the rat's choices are limited by the walls of the maze.
willieH: Hi thinktank... :hithere:
Thanks for answering... :boogie:
Please don't recieve this as a "reprimand"... rather it is intended to be a edification...
One thing which I IMMEDIATELY have noticed is that this answer of yours is BARREN of Scripture... Indeed if we are discussing Scriptural premises, then those Scriptures should be REFERENCED as the basis for our discussion... and if an observation of them is found to be variant between us, then we have already proposed the reference for the other to RECONSIDER... :happygrin:
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PM
God will was that Sodom be saved
But mans will to sin made that city destroyed, for God only desired one single righteous person to save it. See that GOD DESIRED, but man did not take heed and choose sin, therefore destruction
Man DID "choose" destruction, but that was already upon the AGENDA of the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS which are DONE according to the WILL and COUNSEL of
YHVH --
Isaiah 46:10 -- Eph 1:11I beg to differ for the following Scriptural reason:
I do not believe ---
"God's will was that Sodom be saved"...Matt 11:23 ---
and thou Capernaum which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell [hades] for ...IF... the MIGHTY WORKS [God's works] which have BEEN DONE IN THEE, had ...BEEN DONE in SODOM, ...it would have REMAINED UNTIL THIS DAY.This verse in itself notes that the WILL of GOD decided
NOT to do the WORKS which would have "saved Sodom"... rather that He
WITHHELD those "saving works" according to His agenda, not according to the "mischoosings" of men/women which were "done IN SODOM".
Although I can add to that (that which has already been proposed by me), ...that ALL THINGS are
DONE according to the WILL of
YHVH God --
Eph 1:11 -- Isaiah 46:10Also
Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24 -- ALL CONCUR that
GOD DIRECTS the steps of MEN... Men percieve "choices", but the STEP they "actually take" is
DIRECTED by GOD...
In these 3 verses there is no indication in ANY of these verses, that only the "STEPS of Righteousness" are "DIRECTED", rather it GENERALIZES and GROUPS all "STEPS" of MEN, together.
Rom 9:21 -- notes GOD
MAKING both "honorable" and "dishonorable" vessels... (the vessels are not "making themselves")... of the SAME LUMP.
Most "browse" the Scriptures instead of truly, with an open heart, ...STUDY them, ...taking "religious tidbits" with them in that "browsing" and involving those "tidbits" in their observations and conclusions.
The "browser" will read --
Eph 1:11 -- and insert the "religious tidbit" -- EXCEPT -- this or that...
The "browser" will read --
John 1:3 -- and disinclude EVIL things.
The "browser" will read --
Col 1:20 -- and yet think that there are things OUTSIDE of this description... and are NOT reconciled...
The "browser" will read --
Col 1:16 -- and claim that EVIL is NOT of God, and that anything associated with "EVIL" is a problem "created" by "satan" in conjunction with "men"... and that GOD had nothing to do with it... :mnah:
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMLikewise God Desired for Nineveh to be saved, but the people in Nineveh actually listened and repented and God in his mercy did not destroy Nineveh because of mans repentance. For even greater proof, man decides to sin later in Nineveh and God destroys Nineveh.
Again, this is a view which does not take into consideration OTHER Scripture... for this is SAID in Scripture of REPENTENCE:
Rom 2:4 ---
or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, ...NOT KNOWING... that the ...GOODNESS of GOD -- LEADETH THEE to ...REPENTENCERepentence is not a "choice" man makes of his own volition. Indeed it is the opposite. For in order for "repentence" to take place... one must FIRST be DRAGGED to the
WORD --
John 6:44 -- then the
WORD either
opens revelation to the one "dragged", which leads to "repentence" or it does NOT, of its DECISIVE and DIRECTIVE power --
Matt 11:27Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMReligious leaders are allways saying God is in control etc. But God is in control the same way, that a parent is in conrol of wayward children, there is only so much control. The child is the one that decides, chooses his own fate, the parent wants the child to become a doctor, but the child wants to be a fireman, will the parent win?
This is reducing God to the level of MAN, thinktank... His WAYS and THOUGHTS are FAR ABOVE ours...
"Religious leaders" are exactly that... leaders of RELIGION... and the RELIGIOUS... GOD IS IN CONTROL... if He is NOT, then we are all in eternally deep ...poo-poo! :laughing7:
ALL THINGS are manifest of GOD... for HE is the maker of ALL THINGS --
John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- and the consistence of these things, be they GOOD or EVIL is still within Him --
Col 1:20 -- Acts 17:28... The "religious leaders" speak DOUBLE TALK... stating GOD to be IN CONTROL... then naming EXCEPTIONS.
Either He is IN CONTROL of ALL things as the Scripture states --
Rom 9:16-19 -- or He has let things be "IN CONTROL" of THEMSELVES... which then opens the can of worms... that these things, in their FINITE state ARE NOW HELD ACCOUNTIBLE for ETERNAL matters and/or ETERNAL standards...
For it was the decision of the MAKER of them, to "let them" go their own "way"... which "decision" once again, STILL lays at the foot of the MAKER.
EXAMPLE --- If I were to place a LOADED gun in a 4yr olds hand, and tell him not to shoot his sister, and indeed he then proceeds to kill his sister... It is not the CHILD that is held ACCOUNTABLE, it is ME for enabling him to DO what HE DID.
EXAMPLE -- Please dont get me wrong, I am totally against the use of addictive drugs... but the following must be considered as to GOD's part in their use:
GOD has created HEROIN (for even though the poppy must be processed, GOD created the poppy, as well as the intellect and information to process it into HEROIN) to be an ADDICTIVE drug, which will affect the Human body in altering and extremely PLEASUREABLE ways, ...plus become NEEDED by that body after a short time of use...
The HEROIN addict is not TOTALLY "accountable" to GOD for his use of this drug, nor its affects on the body, for without GOD's decisions concerning the effectual ingredients and information necessary to process, HEROIN --
- (1) the drug would not even "BE"... and therefore,
- (2) the drug would NOT be addictive... and therefore,
- (3) use of it would not avail extremely PLEASUREABLE effects, and therefore ENTICING the user for RE-USE, which then results in ADDICTION...
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMThe child chooses to scream, to be quiet, to walk, to talk, to move his left hand and his right hand, God can only influence us, not that he cannot control us, but that is not in his nature.
You cannot prove ANY of this... please show Scriptural support for:
- (1) that HE is NOT in CONTROL of ALL THINGS -- [He is the maker of them, and they are made as they are as a matter of HIS WILL -- Rom 9:19 -- having MERCY upon them or NOT according to HIS WILL, not ours]
- (2) that HE "cannot" CONTROL us because "that is not in His NATURE" -- [Rom 11:32 -- God has concluded ALL in UNBELIEF -- whatsoever is NOT of faith (unbelief) is SIN, therefore GOD decided ALL to be SINNERS of His decision -- Rom 14:23 -- Heb 11:6 -- so HE has placed us all in a position where we CANNOT PLEASE Him... of HIS WILL, not ours.)
- (3) that HE only "influences" us... [I have already shown that MAN is UNABLE to "understand" -- HIS OWN WAY -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24]
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMYou see God has created us in his own image, we make choices in life and this holy book the bible tells us in advanced what choices are good and what choices lead to destruction.
That means that man can choose his own fate, even though God is the alpha and omega and knows the begining from the end, he does not know which choice we will make in certain conditions. He knows all things and knows every parameter and every potential decision you will ever make. Some choices God says are definite, because he knows where the person is in development and has calculated that the person is 100% likely to make that certain decision.
You have established GOD -- as a "guesser" of outcomes... "calculating" instead of
KNOWING... Even proposing "odds"... that the outcome will BE as He "guesses"...
What if God has "guessed" incorrectly about ADVERSITY/AFFLICTION never rising again? --
Nah 1:9 -- Or that "death, pain, and sorrow" will "pass away"? --
Rev 21:4In saying this, you demote ALMIGHTY as a title of
YHVH... for you have stated that there are things "HE DOES NOT KNOW"... How can He BE "almighty" and the "might" of "knowing certain things", be apart from Him?
Then you say this:
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMHow many times have prophecies failed?
People get prophecies that they are going to get a promotion in work, but the prophecy was dependant on that person working hard and diligent and also seeking God. So the person works hard and diligent and does not get the job, they then think that the person who did the prophecy is a false prophet, but the reality was that the person failed in his task to seek God and missed out on a vital element.
You make the FULFILLMENT of "prophecy", dependent upon US!! ...how carnally amiss is this? :mnah:
Because a "prophecy" is made by any given "man", does NOT mean that said "prophecy" was of GOD --
Jer 29:9God does not "prophesy" over the self oriented FINITE things which are failingly embedded in the SELFISHNESS of MEN (like getting a "raise" at work, or "a date" with the cute girl in accounting)...
He prophecies over THINGS which are of ETERNAL matters... which are pointed toward the CHARACTER and HEARTS of MEN, ...not toward the MAMMON (in whatever way prosperity is individually beheld) of MEN...
If there is any INDIVIDUAL GAIN or prosperity involved in the PROPHECY (i.e. a better job, a new car, a 20K seat arena to preach in, etc)... then the prophecy is not DIVINELY originated...
GOD is not concerned with
you winning the lotto... You shall only "win it" if it is PART of HIS PLAN for ALL... and that "winning" brings about the FULFILLMENT of His plan for ALL in its particular and predesigned, way.
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMGod says Choose this day whom you will serve?
No man can "walk" in the pathway of RIGHTEOUSNESS unless he/she is ordained to do so --
Eph 2:10 -- Jer 10:23 -- Until GOD calls us OUT of DARKNESS (in which HE put us --
Rom 11:23)... then we shall continue to LOVE the (faithless) DARKNESS and gravitate TO ITS proposals...
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMWillie, it is GODS will for man to be enjoying ourself and to be in good health and to seek him, but yet how many people do that?
If God writes everything in histroy then how can you answer a person who asks why did that earthquake happened?
Judas betrayed Jesus for he was desperate for money and Satan took advantage of his weakness, if he wasnt desperate for money, why betray him for money? and why betray him for only 30 pieces.
These do not establish your arguement, it only questions your own "answers", thinktank.
Why did he betray him for only 30 pieces of silver, thinktank?
It is YOU which need and answer for this question for THAT is the crux of your "vision" of the betrayal... :dontknow:
The betrayal was NOT about money, nor about JUDAS, nor was any mythical character RELIGION has invented called "satan" involved... It was about the FULFILLING of the PROPHECIES which made of
CHRIST by
YHVH God... and COMPLETING the RECONCILIATION of MAN to GOD...
JUDAS was the NECESSARY ONE (for IN FACT, not imagination he WAS the ONE) USED by GOD, in order that the
FULFILLMENT of the prophesied SACRIFICE of
CHRIST, be made...
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMMaybe you are correct about God needing someone like Judas to fullfill scripture, but that doesn't mean that what I say is not true, both can be correct. For Jesus said
Woe to that man that betray me (which supports my idea) but nevertheless, scripture must be fullfilled (which supports your idea)
MAYBE? Please tell us HOW it could've been accomplished OTHERWISE, thinktank! :dontknow:
Your "idea" is FICTIONAL, ...which supposes that ["maybe"] ANYONE "could've" betrayed
CHRIST, which is completely based in YOUR IMAGINATION... and has NO SCRIPTURAL support.
My "idea" however, ...is SCRIPTURAL, ...which is that JUDAS betrayed
CHRIST and was a FACTUAL ELEMENT of the
FULFILLMENT of the Scripture ... and THAT, is based in REALITY and TRUTH.
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMYou said that my idea of Judas not wanting to live is just my imagination, you are correct and I did say that it is just a possibility, however when it comes to Judas being the betrayer I belive that God forknew in his eternal wisdom all the potential people that could have betrayed Jesus, and knew that Judas could be one of them.
This is self decieving.
How is it that God's "foreknowledge" can KNOW all the potential persons, but NOT the one who actually BETRAYED? Does God need some new "glasses"?
You make GOD one which is "sort of" ALMIGHTY and "sort of" KNOWLEDGEABLE, but because of only being "SORT of these things" -- His FOREKNOWLEDGE was INCOMPLETE and WITHOUT the ABOLUTE information that JUDAS would be the ONE which actually BETRAYED... guessing, like at the horse track, the culmination of the most IMPORTANT [bar none] event in HISTORY. AND, that this IMPERFECT and INCOMPLETE "foreknowledge" --- "could've" eluded God's best "guess"!
I cannot :rolleye: more at this thinking... And if you indeed are correct... then ALL scenarios which are projected in ETERNITY are made of the same potentially FALLIBLE guesses... :thumbdown:
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMIn fact I liken God to one of those books that has an alternative ending, where God knows each and every ending, but we as people choose which path we go upon. I think that people have destinies, but the path to those destinies is varied and sometimes the destiny is shunned altogether and man goes his own way.
You are welcome to "liken" anything you wish... that does not mean that your "likening" is valid, nor contains truth. TRUTH (thank God) must be based upon what IS WRITTEN in HIS
WORD... not upon your "likening"... :sigh:
Most everything you have stated in this reply is UNSCRIPTURAL and barren of its support... rather is founded upon you "likening"... and IMAGINATIONS...
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMMaybe I am wrong, but the scriptures do imply that we have a choice in life and demonstrates Gods greatness, by giving all of us freedom of choice.
FIRST --- Our seeking is not about who is right and who is wrong, that is SELF-oriented VANITY...
I do not seek to be correct over you... I seek us both to find the TRUTH.
For me, it is about seeking the removal of the VEIL, that understanding of the INFINITE and ALL KNOWING
WORD of GOD, be REVEALED by
It --- to us --- that we may step even ONE
WORD closer to the
WRITER of it...
SECOND --- The
WORD "MAKES" one
FREE, bro... but from what? :Chinscratch: (hint: from self)
As far as "FREEDOM" is concerned and attached to "choosing"... to "choose" amiss is NOT "freedom" it is SIN... and only the
WORD can FREE the "mischooser" from his "mischoosing" --
John 8:32 Computers, Dogs and snails, birds, all "choose"... Choice in itself, is not evidence of CONTROL or of FREEDOM...
A murderer "chooses" to KILL... is he FREE committing murder, or in fact, in BONDAGE to the desire to murder?
CHOOSING, is only an inherent characteristic which is GIVEN as an ability within the Created entity which possesses within it, the NEED to "choose" in order to manifest living... and which can only "choose" from options provided to him/her/it... also GIVEN by the Creator...
THIRD --- For that matter, ...GOD is the
maker of
ALL THINGS which are "
MADE" --
John 1:3 --- including the "choices" (good or evil) which are in fact "things" -- which are, ..."
MADE" :dontknow:
Peace brother tank! :Peace2:
...willieH :cloud9:
Hello Willie
First I did use scriptures, true I did not write them out, but I think you are someone who knows the bible and knows the story of Nineveh. The reason I don't write scriptures is because sometimes it is not necessarry, I just need to remind you of certain scriptures, if there are scriptures that are obscure I will take the time to write them out. The second reason I don't write scriptures is because people rely too much on people's quotes instead of reading the bible for themselves, I hope that my ideas and writings have inspired people to pick up their bible and find the facts for themselves, which I perceive that it has. Third I don't enjoy writing scriptures because they take me a very long time to implement proper grammar and to do it word by word and 4th even though my knowledge of the bible is, I argue better than most Christians(Not necessarily those here) my knowledge of the exact reference point is not so good, so I ask myself is it worth, spending hours on end just to argue with you on this forum, and the answer is no, but don't misunderstand me, I am still making a great effort to reply to your post, I am being a wise steward and investing my time wisely, which I hope you can understand, as I know that the way you write things out using colour, scriptural references is impressive Willie.
Matt 11:23 --- and thou Capernaum which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell [hades] for ...IF... the MIGHTY WORKS [God's works] which have BEEN DONE IN THEE, had ...BEEN DONE in SODOM, ...it would have REMAINED UNTIL THIS DAY.
This verse in itself notes that the WILL of GOD decided NOT to do the WORKS which would have "saved Sodom"... rather that He WITHHELD those "saving works" according to His agenda, not according to the "mischoosings" of men/women which were "done IN SODOM".
But Math is the new testament. Sodom has already been destroyed man choose to sin and it got destroyed. The great works? Who or where did these works come from?
Jesus Christ, but Jesus was not around during the time of Sodom, which makes it even more clear that even Gods will to save in Sodom was not enough to save Sodom and the only way in which it could have been saved would be to send in the son of God manifested in the flesh to reveal the works.
MAYBE? Please tell us HOW it could've been accomplished OTHERWISE, thinktank!
Your "idea" is FICTIONAL, ...which supposes that ["maybe"] ANYONE "could've" betrayed CHRIST, which is completely based in YOUR IMAGINATION... and has NO SCRIPTURAL support.
My "idea" however, ...is SCRIPTURAL, ...which is that JUDAS betrayed CHRIST and was a FACTUAL ELEMENT of the FULFILLMENT of the Scripture ... and THAT, is based in REALITY and TRUTH.
Yes Judas was the betrayer, easy to say that now because it has come to pass.
How else would it be accomplished, lets use that imagination of mine, ok, Peter could have betrayed Jesus Christ for 30 pieces?
Ok how about none of the apostles, what about Mary Magdelene, she a familiar friend could have betrayed Christ for 30 pieces.
If Mary was the one that betrayed Christ would that nullify the scriptures?
Yes/no
How would you know in your limited understanding that none of the other aposltes could have betrayed Christ.
Peter was an ambitious fellow, maybe Satan could have tempted him with power, to betray Jesus
But as we know it was Judas who betrayed him and the rest is history.
And Christ said'betray you the son of man with a kiss'
As if suprised, hey I never thought the betrayer would be you Judas, I thought it would have been one of my disciples, but not one of my 12 apostles that's been with me for 3 years, night and day.
As too why 30 pieces, some of you like to make a big deal out of that, and great I like to ponder on deep things meaning to, but for me the immediate and most important things are
1. Judas betrays for money
2. Scripture is fullfilled
Was it God who fullfilled that, was it Satan, or was it Judas that decided that amount and God in his eternal wisdom forknew that Judas would select 30 pieces.
Scripture says that Satan entered him, so that means Satan must have inititated the deal, so maybe since others have pointed out 30 pieces means slave, perhaps Judas sold his soul to the devil for 30 pieces.
Didn't Jesus say, you are either a slave to sin or slave to righteousness, so how did Satan get a foothold on Peter the aposlte,'Get the behind me Satan' -Pride, so how did Satan get a foothold on Judas? The love of ????
EXAMPLE -- Please don't get me wrong, I am totally against the use of addictive drugs... but the following must be considered as to GOD's part in their use:
GOD has created HEROIN (for even though the poppy must be processed, GOD created the poppy, as well as the intellect and information to process it into HEROIN) to be an ADDICTIVE drug, which will affect the Human body in altering and extremely PLEASUREABLE ways, ...plus become NEEDED by that body after a short time of use...
The HEROIN addict is not TOTALLY "accountable" to GOD for his use of this drug, nor its affects on the body, for without GOD's decisions concerning the effectual ingredients and information necessary to process, HEROIN --
* (1) the drug would not even "BE"... and therefore,
* (2) the drug would NOT be addictive... and therefore,
* (3) use of it would not avail extremely PLEASUREABLE effects, and therefore ENTICING the user for RE-USE, which then results in ADDICTION..
Actually God created Morphine, which the medical establishment uses to numb pain. The street drug cartels sell this stuff on the street and brand name is heroin, it can be called many things, the drug dealers also add junk into the mixture so that it is different to morphine.
EXAMPLE --- If I were to place a LOADED gun in a 4yr olds hand, and tell him not to shoot his sister, and indeed he then proceeds to kill his sister... It is not the CHILD that is held ACCOUNTABLE, it is ME for enabling him to DO what HE DID
In the garden of eden man was given the choice between the good and evil tree and the tree of life, this again makes it clear that God gives us a Choice.
You have established GOD -- as a "guesser" of outcomes... "calculating" instead of KNOWING... Even proposing "odds"... that the outcome will BE as He "guesses"...
What if God has "guessed" incorrectly about ADVERSITY/AFFLICTION never rising again? -- Nah 1:9 -- Or that "death, pain, and sorrow" will "pass away"? -- Rev 21:4
These are statements made by God, therefore they come to pass, there is no need to calculate anything, whatever God states will come to pass.
If God decides everything then why pray?
Let me ask you this, does your idea bring fruit?
The idea that God knows every decision, does not help man at all and makes us passive, why bother praying?
Why bother preaching the gospel?
The classic line that sinners use against saints 'He forknew all who would choose him' Then why bother with me, because it is already established im going to hell.(note most people associate salvation is from ET, but not me)
There is a difference between man being on the throne and doing things his own way, to the man who is in control and is lead by God. There is nothing evil about man making choices, it is God's will that we make choices, otherwise he would not have given Adam and Eve the choice in the garden.
What if Adam and Eve choose the tree of life, things would have been very different.
There are many people in this world who are like Judas, oh the devil made me do it.
Some killers say 'It was Gods will that these people be killed.'
You make the FULFILLMENT of "prophecy", dependent upon US!! ...how carnally amiss is this? Nah
Because a "prophecy" is made by any given "man", does NOT mean that said "prophecy" was of GOD -- Jer 29:9
Only certain prophecies, others like the birth of Jesus are the workings of God and must come to pass for it is destiny.
God does not "prophesy" over the self oriented FINITE things which are failingly embedded in the SELFISHNESS of MEN (like getting a "raise" at work, or "a date" with the cute girl in accounting)...
He prophecies over THINGS which are of ETERNAL matters... which are pointed toward the CHARACTER and HEARTS of MEN, ...not toward the MAMMON (in whatever way prosperity is individually beheld) of MEN...
If there is any INDIVIDUAL GAIN or prosperity involved in the PROPHECY (i.e. a better job, a new car, a 20K seat arena to preach in, etc)... then the prophecy is not DIVINELY originated...
I don't see why not, God desires that we prosper and be in good health. But you are partly right there are many who prophecy lies about material gain, one must ask for Gods wisdom to discern between good and evil, for there are many who come in to fleece the flock. If the prophecies are allways about material wealth, then either that congregation is especially blessed, such as the days of Solomon, or most likely, vanity.
Quote from: willieH on June 24, 2010, 11:23:38 PM
willieH: Hi thinktank... :happygrin:
You don't know me well (been here for 8yrs or so), so let me preface myself... I speak bluntly. I do not mean any harm or disprespect in my words... just flat-out tell it like it is... :winkgrin:
:bgdance: To begin with, (though it is not popular), I am on the JUDAS cheerleading team... :laughing7: ...what he did was certainly not enviable... but definitely a MOST NECESSARY action, that was part of the plan to benefit us all!
You are more than welcome to disagree with what I say... :thumbsup: But know that it shall be accompanied by REASON... :dbook: :declare:
Behind this all, there are two views.
Your view where you are cheerleading the man that betrayed Jesus Christ to death(God have mercy)
My view where I am simply on Christs side, who said woe to that man, better for him not to be born.
If Judas is such a hero, then why doesn't God share your enthusiasm? hmm
Yes without Judas how would scripture been fullfilled, but nevertheless who gave you permission to cheerleader and praise Judas, God or yourself?
Sorry for tasting ThinkTanks shells, but maybe its for the best that you no longer praise Judas but praise Jesus instead, I know you already praise Jesus, but give that praise you have for Judas and give it to him that is worthy of praise, Jesus Christ.
ps don't be affraid of the word choice, for sometime the ET preachers have combined this word with choose to go to hell, so maybe you are affraid of that word, because of religious poison.
:cloud9: Hey, thinktank....when you comment in someone's text, you might want to change the colors of your response for clarity, if you don't use the quote button for every paragraph you want to reply to. Just a suggestion.....blessings.... :thumbsup:
willieH: Hi thinktank... :cloud9:
Again, thanks for your reply.
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AM
Hello Willie
First I did use scriptures, true I did not write them out, but I think you are someone who knows the bible and knows the story of Nineveh. The reason I don't write scriptures is because sometimes it is not necessarry, I just need to remind you of certain scriptures, if there are scriptures that are obscure I will take the time to write them out. The second reason I don't write scriptures is because people rely too much on people's quotes instead of reading the bible for themselves, I hope that my ideas and writings have inspired people to pick up their bible and find the facts for themselves, which I perceive that it has. Third I don't enjoy writing scriptures because they take me a very long time to implement proper grammar and to do it word by word and 4th even though my knowledge of the bible is, I argue better than most Christians(Not necessarily those here) my knowledge of the exact reference point is not so good, so I ask myself is it worth, spending hours on end just to argue with you on this forum, and the answer is no, but don't misunderstand me, I am still making a great effort to reply to your post, I am being a wise steward and investing my time wisely, which I hope you can understand, as I know that the way you write things out using colour, scriptural references is impressive Willie.
FIRST --- I was not intending to "argue" with you brother, just discuss... And I did not ask you to "type out" whole verses or passages... I simply requested that you note REFERENCE to what you are basing your view upon, which helps me research your thinking.
SECOND --- I do not use color to impress anyone... most of my use of Color is in typing NAMES for which I hold deep respect, and Scriptural references that support what I believe in the
WORD.
Quote from: willieHMatt 11:23 --- and thou Capernaum which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell [hades] for ...IF... the MIGHTY WORKS [God's works] which have BEEN DONE IN THEE, had ...BEEN DONE in SODOM, ...it would have REMAINED UNTIL THIS DAY.
This verse in itself notes that the WILL of GOD decided NOT to do the WORKS which would have "saved Sodom"... rather that He WITHHELD those "saving works" according to His agenda, not according to the "mischoosings" of men/women which were "done IN SODOM".
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AMBut Math is the new testament. Sodom has already been destroyed man choose to sin and it got destroyed. The great works? Who or where did these works come from?
Jesus Christ, but Jesus was not around during the time of Sodom, which makes it even more clear that even Gods will to save in Sodom was not enough to save Sodom and the only way in which it could have been saved would be to send in the son of God manifested in the flesh to reveal the works.
FIRST ---
JESUS CHRIST has "been around" for ever!
SECOND --- the WORKS which were done in Capernaum, had GOD decided to do them in Sodom... would have been done... However... that was NOT the decision of GOD. Therefore Sodom was left to the destiny that GOD had PREDERMINED it would experience while it existed within this realm.
THIRD --- Upon what do base that --
"it was GOD's WILL to save SODOM"? (I am asking you to sustanciate this claim with the
WORD, not just your opinion)
Quote from: willieHMAYBE? Please tell us HOW it could've been accomplished OTHERWISE, thinktank!
Your "idea" is FICTIONAL, ...which supposes that ["maybe"] ANYONE "could've" betrayed CHRIST, which is completely based in YOUR IMAGINATION... and has NO SCRIPTURAL support.
My "idea" however, ...is SCRIPTURAL, ...which is that JUDAS betrayed CHRIST and was a FACTUAL ELEMENT of the FULFILLMENT of the Scripture ... and THAT, is based in REALITY and TRUTH.
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AMYes Judas was the betrayer, easy to say that know because it has come to pass.
How else would it be accomplished, lets use that imagination of mine, ok, Peter could have betrayed Jesus Christ for 30 pieces?
Ok how about none of the apostles, what about Mary Magdelene, she a familiar friend could have betrayed Christ for 30 pieces.
If Mary was the one that betrayed Christ would that nullify the scriptures?
Yes/no
How would you know in your limited understanding that none of the other aposltes could have betrayed Christ.
REALITY does not contain "what if's" or "coulda's, woulda's or shoulda's"... what IS, ...IS... anything else is FICTION... Because Scientists today propose there are innumberable Universes, does not mean that IN FACT there are... Only in their IMAGINATION do these "innumerable Universes" exist.
Stephen King novels "could be" real... but, the truth is (thank God), they are NOT! Just products of a darkened imagination, that is all.
Your "IMAGINATION" is invalid bro... We can SPECULATE all we like, but the
WORD must verify what we believe, otherwise we are living amidst our own DELUSIONS...
The
WORD verifies that JUDAS was the betrayer... and that HE FULFILLED Scripture in doing so...
GOD is PERFECT... and EVERYTHING within EVERY ONE of His prophesies comes to PASS AS PROPHESIED... Peter, nor Mary Magdalene, nor any other person or persons you might "dream up", BETRAYED Him to the authorities which put Him to death... (though we have ALL betrayed Him in the Spirit)
REALITY is REALITY... These were NOT PROPHESIED to BETRAY... and, just FYI... it is quite dangerous for you to imply as well as APPLY -- IMPERFECTION and CHANCE to the doings of GOD. :sigh:
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AMPeter was an ambitious fellow, maybe Satan could have tempted him with power, to betray Jesus
But as we know it was Judas who betrayed him and the rest is history.
And Christ said'betray you the son of man with a kiss'
As if suprised, hey I never thought the betrayer would be you Judas, I thought it would have been one of my disciples, but not one of my 12 apostles that's been with me for 3 years, night and day.
More unfounded opinion and speculation...
CHRIST was not at all "surprised" that JUDAS was the one... Which Scripture verifies His "surprise", thinktank?
If anything
CHRIST was disgusted with the betrayal, obviously dreading it (as is exampled by His request that cup pass)... especially because it would come via a TRUSTED FRIEND. Nothing in Scripture (that I have found) indicates that He was "surprised"...
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AMAs too why 30 pieces, some of you like to make a big deal out of that, and great I like to ponder on deep things meaning to, but for me the immediate and most important things are
1. Judas betrays for money
2. Scripture is fullfilled
"Money" was involved, because the PROPHECY of the
WORD said money would be involved in it... NOT because JUDAS decided money would have part in this...
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AMWas it God who fullfilled that, was it Satan, or was it Judas that decided that amount and God in his eternal wisdom forknew that Judas would select 30 pieces.
Scripture says that Satan entered him, so that means Satan must have inititated the deal, so maybe since others have pointed out 30 pieces means slave, perhaps Judas sold his soul to the devil for 30 pieces.
FIRST -- "satan" is the principality of adversity, not a sentient being with an "agenda". Look up the hebrew word "satan"...
RELIGION has created this fallacy... so no "being" that RELIGION calls "satan" -- "initiated" anything... this is SPECULATION based upon the fallacy of "satan" as a being.
SECOND -- No one can "
sell" that which does not belong to him... You are NOT YOUR OWN... you are bought with a price --
1 Cor 6:19-20Quote from: willieHEXAMPLE -- Please don't get me wrong, I am totally against the use of addictive drugs... but the following must be considered as to GOD's part in their use:
GOD has created HEROIN (for even though the poppy must be processed, GOD created the poppy, as well as the intellect and information to process it into HEROIN) to be an ADDICTIVE drug, which will affect the Human body in altering and extremely PLEASUREABLE ways, ...plus become NEEDED by that body after a short time of use...
The HEROIN addict is not TOTALLY "accountable" to GOD for his use of this drug, nor its affects on the body, for without GOD's decisions concerning the effectual ingredients and information necessary to process, HEROIN --
* (1) the drug would not even "BE"... and therefore,
* (2) the drug would NOT be addictive... and therefore,
* (3) use of it would not avail extremely PLEASUREABLE effects, and therefore ENTICING the user for RE-USE, which then results in ADDICTION..
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AMActually God created Morphine, which the medical establishment uses to numb pain. The street drug cartels sell this stuff on the street and brand name is heroin, it can be called many things, the drug dealers also add junk into the mixture so that it is different to morphine.
The point is NOT the name of the drug... the point is that the knowledge to process Morphine, Heroin or whatever another might call it, smack, horse, whatever... came from the MIND that GOD manufactured, and information that was HIS before it was discovered by MAN.
I'll end here and continue the answer in another post.
...willieH :cloud9:
willieH: Hi t-tank... :hithere:
Continuing:
Quote from: willieH on June 24, 2010, 11:23:38 PMEXAMPLE --- If I were to place a LOADED gun in a 4yr olds hand, and tell him not to shoot his sister, and indeed he then proceeds to kill his sister... It is not the CHILD that is held ACCOUNTABLE, it is ME for enabling him to DO what HE DID
I do not see that you have answered this...
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AMIn the garden of eden man was given the choice between the good and evil tree and the tree of life, this again makes it clear that God gives us a Choice.
Where is this "choice" so noted in the
WORD, thinktank? That Man "CHOSE BETWEEN" the tree of KNOWLEDGE and the "tree of life"? Methinks you have created yet another
imagination.
Again "choosing" does not propose FREEDOM. In all my studies (34 years) I have not found a Scripture that notes a CHOICE was
made OR even PROPOSED, ...BETWEEN the "tree of KNOWLEDGE" and the "tree of LIFE"... PLEASE show me where it is... thanks! :dontknow:
Quote from: willieH on June 24, 2010, 11:23:38 PMYou have established GOD -- as a "guesser" of outcomes... "calculating" instead of KNOWING... Even proposing "odds"... that the outcome will BE as He "guesses"...
What if God has "guessed" incorrectly about ADVERSITY/AFFLICTION never rising again? -- Nah 1:9 -- Or that "death, pain, and sorrow" will "pass away"? -- Rev 21:4
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AMThese are statements made by God, therefore they come to pass, there is no need to calculate anything, whatever God states will come to pass.
This statement is a renege of what YOU said previously here:
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMYou see God has created us in his own image, we make choices in life and this holy book the bible tells us in advanced what choices are good and what choices lead to destruction.
That means that man can choose his own fate, even though God is the alpha and omega and knows the begining from the end, he does not know which choice we will make in certain conditions. He knows all things and knows every parameter and every potential decision you will ever make. Some choices God says are definite, because he knows where the person is in development and has calculated that the person is 100% likely to make that certain decision.
"Likely" is not EXACT... only a "good bet"... You say GOD does not KNOW what shall occur in some instances
Your words double-speak... "He knows ALL THINGS" -- "He does NOT KNOW in certain instances" -- "He knows every parameter and every POTENTIAL decision you will ever make"...
GOD cannot "KNOW ALL THINGS", and yet NOT KNOW ALL THINGS = in certain instances, the choices we shall make!
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMIf God decides everything then why pray?
Because HE has commanded us to pray... even though HE ALREADY KNOWS what we shall ask for. His command is REASON ENOUGH to obey it. That He already knows, makes no difference... What actually prayer is, is the exercising of FAITH, which IS GOOD for us... and the result of FAITH benefits US... not GOD.
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMLet me ask you this, does your idea bring fruit?
The idea that God knows every decision, does not help man at all and makes us passive, why bother praying?
It might make YOU passive, and that is your affair... For me, to "obey" Him, is the POWER of GOD, actively living in my LIFE... You and I do not have "faith" that is ours... we have the FAITH
of JESUS working IN US... You and I are to DIE of ourselves... that He may LIVE in us --
Gal 2:20Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMWhy bother preaching the gospel?
JESUS commanded us to do so... do you need more reason than that, t-tank?
I cannot believe you are a man of faith and do not KNOW these things
Nicodemus... err.. I mean, thinktank.
Preaching the "GOSPEL" of YOURSELF is worthless... and a work of carnality.
Preaching the GOSPEL by submitting to
CHRIST in the presenting of HIS FAITH, LOVE and PEACE which you know of
CHRIST in your heart, before another to consider... is DIVINE... for only the PEACE and FAITH of
CHRIST (not "willieH" or "thinktank") can and WILL, effectively produce "fruit"...
We always leave the increase to Him... It does not matter to me, who hears and who does not... that is GOD's decision. I am faithful to present what I have found, and continue to search for correction, and for more, daily.
Here is some of the CORRECTION that I have recieved: 10 Years ago, I "believed" in ---
ET -- the Rapture -- Eternal separation from God -- HELL -- "free will" -- the "millenium" -- Spiritual Israel -- Fallen angels -- "satan" (as a sentient being) -- friday crucifixtion, sunday resurrection -- Creation being the beginning of our existence --- just to mention a few... ALL of which I have found to be LIES when compared to what the Scriptures actually present, ALL of which are THEOLOGICAL creations of men in their VANITY...
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMThe classic line that sinners use against saints 'He forknew all who would choose him' Then why bother with me, because it is already established im going to hell.(note most people associate salvation is from ET, but not me)
"Sinners" include EVERYONE... as does "SAINTS"... one happens to believe in this present moment, the others have yet to be UNVEILED.
One (let us say an athiest another person of a given "religion") which has not yet been DRAGGED to the
WORD --
John 6:44 -- and then had REVELATION of Father
YHVH, done BY the
WORD --
Matt 11:27 I, which spent 30 years of my life without GOD in it... and the last 34 diligently seeking Him... am the perfect example of this.
I can testify that I was partying VERY hearty drinking, smoking, whatever -- I was foul mouthed, promiscuous, and as fleshly as I could be...
Then one day... I woke up and found myself TIRED of this lifestyle... Why? I did not know. I was having the "time of my life" as many might view me. I was popular with everyone, prospering in health, money etc... but something was missing in all of this... that day a 7th Day Adventist preacher came knocking at my door, asking if I might be interested in a Bible study... At first, I cringed inside (as GOD began to DRAG ME), but for some reason (it being HIS WILL) I consented to it... the next week, a friend came to visit one of my roomates. Since that day, ...she and I have studied together this WORD througout the 34 YEARS of our WONDERFUL Marriage...
Don't tell me that miracles do not happen to "sinners" which do not "believe" in God... nor that ANYONE is beyond the reach of
YHVH... If He could so change my entire life... He shall do it for ALL... for He is COMPLETELY IMPARTIAL to ALL men --
Acts 10:34Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMThere is a difference between man being on the throne and doing things his own way, to the man who is in control and is lead by God. There is nothing evil about man making choices, it is God's will that we make choices, otherwise he would not have given Adam and Eve the choice in the garden.
I am a believer in COMPLETE DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY... these words are "preaching to the choir"... We "choose", but only as has already been DECLARED by GOD ---
Isaiah 46:10 -- the "things not yet DONE" amounts to EVERY THING...
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMWhat if Adam and Eve choose the tree of life, things would have been very different.
"What if" elephants could tie square knots? ...or "what if" Adam & Eve were GORILLAS? ...or "what if" eyes were FEET? ...or "what if" NOTHING was SOMETHING... or "what if" milk was beer? ...or "what if" inside was outside? ...do you see the silliness in this yet, thinktank? Or do you need more "what ifs"?
In REALITY, ..."what if's" DO NOT exist bro... and you have yet to produce this "choice" as Scripturally presented to Adam & Eve (that they were to "choose" between the "tree of G & E or the "tree of life)
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMThere are many people in this world who are like Judas, oh the devil made me do it.
Some killers say 'It was Gods will that these people be killed.'
ALL men are JUDAS, thinktank, including YOU... we ALL have betrayed Him... You think yourself exempt? Did He not DIE because of YOU and YOUR BETRAYAL of Him, in part?
You are welcome to this "thinking in your tank"... but as for me, no thanks.
Quote from: willieHYou make the FULFILLMENT of "prophecy", dependent upon US!! ...how carnally amiss is this? Nah
Because a "prophecy" is made by any given "man", does NOT mean that said "prophecy" was of GOD -- Jer 29:9
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMOnly certain prophecies, others like the birth of Jesus are the workings of God and must come to pass for it is destiny.
So then, ...it is "thinktank" which reveals of the "prophesies" ...which are made are of God and which are not? :wacko2:
Quote from: willieHGod does not "prophesy" over the self oriented FINITE things which are failingly embedded in the SELFISHNESS of MEN (like getting a "raise" at work, or "a date" with the cute girl in accounting)...
He prophecies over THINGS which are of ETERNAL matters... which are pointed toward the CHARACTER and HEARTS of MEN, ...not toward the MAMMON (in whatever way prosperity is individually beheld) of MEN...
If there is any INDIVIDUAL GAIN or prosperity involved in the PROPHECY (i.e. a better job, a new car, a 20K seat arena to preach in, etc)... then the prophecy is not DIVINELY originated...
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMI don't see why not
Therein lies the problem brother... :sigh:
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMGod desires that we prosper and be in good health. But you are partly right there are many who prophecy lies about material gain, one must ask for Gods wisdom to discern between good and evil, for there are many who come in to fleece the flock. If the prophecies are allways about material wealth, then either that congregation is especially blessed, such as the days of Solomon, or most likely, vanity.
Here is a Scripture forya, which IMO [in my observation] tells us what is of God and what is NOT:
Matt 6:24 -- [
Luke 16:13] --
No man can serve TWO masters: for EITHER he will hate the one, and love the other or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye CANNOT serve GOD ...and... MAMMON -- Mammon=wealth --
#G3126 -- MammonasQuote from: willieH on June 24, 2010, 11:23:38 PM
willieH: Hi thinktank... :happygrin:
You don't know me well (been here for 8yrs or so), so let me preface myself... I speak bluntly. I do not mean any harm or disprespect in my words... just flat-out tell it like it is... :winkgrin:
:bgdance: To begin with, (though it is not popular), I am on the JUDAS cheerleading team... :laughing7: ...what he did was certainly not enviable... but definitely a MOST NECESSARY action, that was part of the plan to benefit us all!
You are more than welcome to disagree with what I say... :thumbsup: But know that it shall be accompanied by REASON... :dbook: :declare:
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AMBehind this all, there are two views.
Your view where you are cheerleading the man that betrayed Jesus Christ to death(God have mercy)
My view where I am simply on Christs side, who said woe to that man, better for him not to be born.
This is simply IMO, tunnel vision.
FIRST --- I salute ("cheerlead") GOD for the doings of JUDAS, for without him, you and I would be destined to DIE FOREVER... therein lies my "cheerleading"...
SECOND --- You are welcome to continue your belief about JUDAS (that he should never have been born), but had he never been born, it would have been maybe YOU... that God chose to do this... :dontknow: ...For if NO one did the "JUDAS" betrayal... NO ONE would be SAVED.
Just as many think the "thief" went to heaven with
CHRIST on the day of the crucifixtion... when
CHRIST ...
DIED on that day...
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMIf Judas is such a hero, then why doesn't God share your enthusiasm? hmm
Yes without Judas how would scripture been fullfilled, but nevertheless who gave you permission to cheerleader and praise Judas, God or yourself?
I have not deemed JUDAS a "hero" you have... I have stated that without HIS doing... neither of us would be saved... I therefore SALUTE GOD in choosing JUDAS to do what he did.
GOD sent
CHRIST to taste death for
JUDAS, as much as for you or I, thinktank... I believe that to be quite "ENTHUSIASTIC" of GOD...
Just as I praise GOD that PHARAOH was raised to IMPRISON God's people... for in the end (as with JUDAS)... his actions brought GLORY to GOD --
Rom 9:17I need no "permission" necessary other than EXALTING the GLORY that was given to GOD via these 2 sinners and their PHYSICALLY dastardly deeds... which resulted in SPIRITUAL GOOD, despite originating in the carnality and selfishness of EVIL... :dontknow:
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMSorry for tasting ThinkTanks shells, but maybe its for the best that you no longer praise Judas but praise Jesus instead, I know you already praise Jesus, but give that praise you have for Judas and give it to him that is worthy of praise, Jesus Christ.
You know nothing of my praise, thinktank... I praise
CHRIST for JUDAS... for without the
WORD proclaiming His BETRAYER to BETRAY... there would be
nothing for any of us.
Quote from: thinktank on June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PMps don't be affraid of the word choice, for sometime the ET preachers have combined this word with choose to go to hell, so maybe you are affraid of that word, because of religious poison.
:laughhand: I think it is
YOU which has "
fear" of choice, bro... I KNOW where
all choice is rooted (within the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS), ...you on the other hand... are hoping to "choose"
correctly,
fearful of making an incorrect "choice"... :sigh:
I on the other hand, fight the aggresssion of the flesh in which I am resident, to submit it to GOD, as did PAUL --
Rom 7 [whole chapter] -- the FLESH which continually desires me to "choose" IT and its desires, instead of that which my INNER MAN (
JESUS CHRIST) commands to be manifest. In PEACE... In that submission I find PEACE,
not FEAR as you suppose in me, as I "choose" within and during the walk of life. KNOWING that GOD is DIRECTING my steps, and in them, my "choices" -- which have to do with such as YOU or anyone else with which my life might interact --
Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9I have already faced death recently (cancer)... and am not in the least FEARFUL of
anything in my life... for I know that GOD directs EACH of my steps... regardless of how I might judge and/or look upon them as GOOD or EVIL... He is IN CONTROL... not me. And I am at PEACE within HIS LOVE --
1 John 4:18 --because of it... :boogie:
:friendstu: May YOU so enjoy His PEACE as well... :Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2010, 07:58:46 PM
KJVMat 19:28 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
=> Did Judas follow Jesus?
=> If not there should have been a 13th listner in the room.
=> But I think that's just trying very hard to read what's not there.
KJVLuk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
=> Same verse is a little different wording
=> If Jesus wanted to exclude someone He would have used other words. Or be more vague like when He said He would be betrayed.
So those verses plus the verse I mention seem to be very clear Judas is also on a throne and not in hell.
I wouldn't be suprised Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas hated that task and that's why he wished He never was born. :2c:
That is fascinating. That's why I like this board. Learn something new everyday.
Quote from: shawn on June 29, 2010, 12:17:01 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2010, 07:58:46 PM
KJVMat 19:28 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
=> Did Judas follow Jesus?
=> If not there should have been a 13th listner in the room.
=> But I think that's just trying very hard to read what's not there.
KJVLuk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
=> Same verse is a little different wording
=> If Jesus wanted to exclude someone He would have used other words. Or be more vague like when He said He would be betrayed.
So those verses plus the verse I mention seem to be very clear Judas is also on a throne and not in hell.
I wouldn't be suprised Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas hated that task and that's why he wished He never was born. :2c:
That is fascinating. That's why I like this board. Learn something new everyday.
:thumbsup: Amen
Hey jab gonna read them books the lord is good
Intriguing find, folks. I found a link to a book review on an old universalist book, that states the following;
Both Jeremiah and Job (men of God) both stated "it would have been better if they had not been born". The author states "this is not to be strictly and literally interpreted , as they were proverbial forms of speech among Jews". He further states Judas repented, that there is no scriptural evidence he is/[remained] lost - NOR, does he believe Judas hanged himself. He states the Greek word apegxato was, as he suggests, incorrectly rendered "hanged self", when it actually can mean "being suffocated or strangled with grief".
More here;
http://books.google.com/books?id=P4eMmQL6rU4C&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=universalism+book+son+of+perdition&source=bl&ots=iqvqENFfNT&sig=pXfmcjalZxHkNt-8cUrzfKEiohE&hl=en&ei=8BBmTLuIMIOC8gaMlLGfDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 06:58:09 AM
Intriguing find, folks. I found a link to a book review on an old universalist book, that states the following;
Both Jeremiah and Job (men of God) both stated "it would have been better if they had not been born". The author states "this is not to be strictly and literally interpreted , as they were proverbial forms of speech among Jews". He further states Judas repented, that there is no scriptural evidence he is/[remained] lost - NOR, does he believe Judas hanged himself. He states the Greek word apegxato was, as he suggests, incorrectly rendered "hanged self", when it actually can mean "being suffocated or strangled with grief".
More here;
http://books.google.com/books?id=P4eMmQL6rU4C&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=universalism+book+son+of+perdition&source=bl&ots=iqvqENFfNT&sig=pXfmcjalZxHkNt-8cUrzfKEiohE&hl=en&ei=8BBmTLuIMIOC8gaMlLGfDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
what about the other gospel though that says judas got bust and his belly gushed in half. To me that means he hanged himself and got split in half. But how would the book interpret that?
take a look at the link. even if you don't agree with it, it's quite interesting. the author seems to believe the thing you note is the correct ending to judas' natural life, but he suggests it was something separate from him suiciding by hanging himself. i'm not sure how he thinks it happened, i need to look at it some more myself. in fact, as soon as i hit 'post', i'm going there :Sparkletooth:
he also states what I've mentioned - and White Wings - that judas was present when Jesus told the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones, those who had followed Him in the regeneration. Not sure exactly what that means, but he states judas was part of all that, and sees no evidence he's not regenerated himself and will reign just as Jesus promised.
I think it would be a good book to have, or at least have access to. The online info is a little limited, but i'll search a little more...
Edit - OK, found this on TM. Gary put it on by permission, I think it's only one chapter;
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/InFavorCh20.html
Regeneration is the next life.
Meaning: 1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration 1a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death 1b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge 1c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught 1d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven. 1e) other uses 1e1) of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile 1e2) of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile 1e3) of the recovery of knowledge by recollection
/EDIT
TCB translates it as rebirth
Reading your Google book James.
KJVJoh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
perdition=destruction. But 'your book' calls it "ill fortune". Just like Judas had bad luck. Didn't all of the 12 die voilent deaths?
Not the whole book can be downloaded for free by clicking on the downloadlink at the top right.
A bulky 15MB pdf that can't be searched or copied from.
Or a 900KB ePUB file that can be searched and copied from. But it requires ePUB reader software.
Free ePub readers: Stanza (http://www.lexcycle.com/support) FBreader (http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/FBReader-Download-73769.html)
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 07:13:02 AMwhat about the other gospel though that says judas got bust and his belly gushed in half. To me that means he hanged himself and got split in half. But how would the book interpret that?
Or he hanged himself and the rope of branch of the tree broke after a while. And then he fell?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2010, 09:06:39 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 07:13:02 AMwhat about the other gospel though that says judas got bust and his belly gushed in half. To me that means he hanged himself and got split in half. But how would the book interpret that?
Or he hanged himself and the rope of branch of the tree broke after a while. And then he fell?
Cool on the book.
Here's what the author says about this; "...Judas cast down the pieces of silver and went out, not only repenting, but with such highly-grieved, mortified, and wounded feelings, that he was completely suffocated and choked with grief, to that degree, that he actually fell headlong, bursting asunder, and thus expiring in a moment of grief, repentance, and agony. What more pitiable could his condition have been? and what stronger evidence of sorrow and compunction could have been manifested? and he, who feels to pursue and follow him, even into eternity, and further torment him there, must be destitute of all sympathy, and even humanity itself. ..."that he might go to his his own place"...what does it prove? Certainly, not that he has gone to an endless hell; for no such place is defined or taught in the Bible.... [***
interestingly, I think the following addresses our many assumptions we make about scripture, automatically inserting our own bias and preconceived ideas about what things mean - jabcat] ..his own place could signify no more than to his former state or condition; or, if applied to his death, could imply no more than that he gone to the state of the dead in general;
independently of either rewards or punishment; as is evidently taught in Eccl. 3:20, "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again".
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2010, 09:05:30 PM
Reading your Google book James.
KJVJoh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
I don't think Judas was any hero. I think he made a choice for evil, and Jesus was clear in saying he was lost to destruction and it would have been better if he had never been born.
Consider these words from The Message:
But if our wrongdoing only underlines and confirms God's rightdoing, shouldn't we be commended for helping out? Since our bad words don't even make a dent in his good words, isn't it wrong of God to back us to the wall and hold us to our word?
These questions come up. The answer to such questions is no, a most emphatic No! How else would things ever get straightened out if God didn't do the straightening?
It's simply perverse to say, "If my lies serve to show off God's truth all the more gloriously, why blame me? I'm doing God a favor." Some people are actually trying to put such words in our mouths, claiming that we go around saying, "The more evil we do, the more good God does, so let's just do it!" That's pure slander, as I'm sure you'll agree. (Romans 3:5-8)
Isn't it perverse to say Judas' betrayal was God's fault? It is, to me.
As far as the twelve, and the twelve thrones, consider this passage as well:
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
" 'May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,' and,
" 'May another take his place of leadership.' Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men
who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" (Acts 1:20-21)
Does this not satisfy that particular question?
just my :2c:
Quote from: LS on August 14, 2010, 09:50:38 PM
[
I don't think Judas was any hero. I think he made a choice for evil, and Jesus was clear in saying he was lost to destruction and it would have been better if he had never been born.
Consider these words from The Message:
But if our wrongdoing only underlines and confirms God's rightdoing, shouldn't we be commended for helping out? Since our bad words don't even make a dent in his good words, isn't it wrong of God to back us to the wall and hold us to our word?
These questions come up. The answer to such questions is no, a most emphatic No! How else would things ever get straightened out if God didn't do the straightening?
It's simply perverse to say, "If my lies serve to show off God's truth all the more gloriously, why blame me? I'm doing God a favor." Some people are actually trying to put such words in our mouths, claiming that we go around saying, "The more evil we do, the more good God does, so let's just do it!" That's pure slander, as I'm sure you'll agree. (Romans 3:5-8)
Isn't it perverse to say Judas' betrayal was God's fault? It is, to me.
As far as the twelve, and the twelve thrones, consider this passage as well:
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
" 'May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,' and,
" 'May another take his place of leadership.' Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" (Acts 1:20-21)
Does this not satisfy that particular question?
just my :2c:
It was predestined
Joh 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
Joh 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Joh 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Joh 13:22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
Joh 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Joh 13:24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
Joh 13:25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
Joh 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Joh 13:28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
Joh 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
Joh 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
Joh 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
Joh 13:32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Joh 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
Joh 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, :sigh:
Respectfully, that doesn't say he was predestined; only that the event was the fulfilling of scripture.
God is outside of time and He chose to reveal future events to prophets in the OT. I don't think that is the same as pre-destination.
Quote from: LS on August 14, 2010, 09:50:38 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2010, 09:05:30 PM
Reading your Google book James.
KJVJoh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
I don't think Judas was any hero. I think he made a choice for evil, and Jesus was clear in saying he was lost to destruction and it would have been better if he had never been born.
Consider these words from The Message:
But if our wrongdoing only underlines and confirms God's rightdoing, shouldn't we be commended for helping out? Since our bad words don't even make a dent in his good words, isn't it wrong of God to back us to the wall and hold us to our word?
These questions come up. The answer to such questions is no, a most emphatic No! How else would things ever get straightened out if God didn't do the straightening?
It's simply perverse to say, "If my lies serve to show off God's truth all the more gloriously, why blame me? I'm doing God a favor." Some people are actually trying to put such words in our mouths, claiming that we go around saying, "The more evil we do, the more good God does, so let's just do it!" That's pure slander, as I'm sure you'll agree. (Romans 3:5-8)
Isn't it perverse to say Judas' betrayal was God's fault? It is, to me.
As far as the twelve, and the twelve thrones, consider this passage as well:
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
" 'May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,' and,
" 'May another take his place of leadership.' Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" (Acts 1:20-21)
Does this not satisfy that particular question?
just my :2c:
Finally, someone who understands :thumbsup:
willieH: Hi LS... :happygrin:
Quote from: LS on August 15, 2010, 03:24:10 AM
Respectfully, that doesn't say he was predestined; only that the event was the fulfilling of scripture.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? :omg:
:JCThink: What is the difference, LS?
Respectfully, ...since you are so certain that "predestination" and "fulfillment of Scripture" (which is fulfililng PROPHECY) are NOT the
same, ...I welcome you to explain the difference between the two... :declare:
Predestination = Something occuring EXACTLY as GOD decided it would occur.
Prophecy = foretelling of something which would occur EXACTLY as GOD decided it would occur....
If Judas was in portion, ..."fulfilling Scripture", then he (Judas) was not the "decider" of the event, nor of his own doings within it. He was "doing" as Scripture FORETOLD he would "DO"... and because the SCRIPTURE cannot be BROKEN --
John 10:34 -- Judas had NO CHOICE in the matter, and was COMPELLED by the WRITING of GOD, to ...DO... as was WRITTEN OF HIM.
For the FULFILLMENT of SCRIPTURE is the
WORK of GOD in men... Just as
HE [GOD]
"raised" Pharaoh to
do what he "
did" --
Rom 9:17 -- did HE [GOD]
"raise" Judas, to
do what he "
did"!
That you do not acknowledge this method of processing, is due to the ingraining of Orthodox theology, within your thinking which is IN BONDAGE to it. :sigh:
This is not your fault... for YOU (as well as all) are doing as GOD has outlined that YOU shall "DO" in your moments, as HE DIRECTS the steps of your life, of which YOU have no KNOWLEDGE --
Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24If what you claim is in fact TRUE, then
everything JESUS did (in fulfilling the Scriptures written of His life), were of HIMSELF, and He LIED in saying "of MYSELF, I
DO NOTHING" --
John 5:19 & 30Quote from: LS on August 15, 2010, 03:24:10 AMGod is outside of time and He chose to reveal future events to prophets in the OT. I don't think that is the same as pre-destination.
Again, ...if it (prophecy) is not (predestination), what is it LS? :dontknow:
Since you are so certain these are different, then obviously you shall be able to explain to us, in what way or ways, these 2 things (predestination/prophecy), differ from one another...
If the TRUTH revealed is not something that GOD decided would "BE" as it IS and as it OCCURS in this realm... and it (the TRUTH) could not "BE" otherwise, then what explanation do you offer for this procedure?
Other than it was PREDESTINED (prophesied) to "BE" ...EXACTLY... as it OCCURS?? ... :dunno:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: LS on August 14, 2010, 09:50:38 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2010, 09:05:30 PM
Reading your Google book James.
KJVJoh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
I don't think Judas was any hero. I think he made a choice for evil, and Jesus was clear in saying he was lost to destruction and it would have been better if he had never been born.
Better have not been born (dis)proves nothing. Could just as well mean he got one of the worst possible tasks.
KJVLuk 22:31-32 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
===> Jesus stopped Satan entering Simon
KJVLuk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
===> What didn't Jesus block Satan this time?
===> Simon is the good guy because he got help and Judas teh bad guy because he didn't get help when he most needed it.
KJV1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
===> Saul/Paul is even worse as Judas.
willieH: Hi T-tank... :hithere:
Quote from: thinktank on August 16, 2010, 07:57:23 PM
Finally, someone who understands :thumbsup:
Yeah, :nod: ...right here:
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 06:58:09 AM
Intriguing find, folks. I found a link to a book review on an old universalist book, that states the following;
Both Jeremiah and Job (men of God) both stated "it would have been better if they had not been born". The author states "this is not to be strictly and literally interpreted , as they were proverbial forms of speech among Jews". He further states Judas repented, that there is no scriptural evidence he is/[remained] lost - NOR, does he believe Judas hanged himself. He states the Greek word apegxato was, as he suggests, incorrectly rendered "hanged self", when it actually can mean "being suffocated or strangled with grief".
More here;
http://books.google.com/books?id=P4eMmQL6rU4C&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=universalism+book+son+of+perdition&source=bl&ots=iqvqENFfNT&sig=pXfmcjalZxHkNt-8cUrzfKEiohE&hl=en&ei=8BBmTLuIMIOC8gaMlLGfDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
...willieH :cloud9:
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew3/D3-JudasIscariot.html
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 21, 2010, 10:25:21 AM
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew3/D3-JudasIscariot.html
:thumbsup:
:thumbdown: :laughing7:
#
# Judas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the ground in the "naos"(Holy Place) part of the temple. Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.
# Judas repented and declared Jesus innocent and confessed his sin
I'm not convinced, if Judas repented he would not have hanged himself. But given the fact that the scriptures call him a thief, he probably didn't even believe in God or Jesus. The other disciples did not believe in Jesus so why would Judas, by that I mean that when Jesus died, they went back to business and probably lost hope that he was to rise again, given the questions they had, such as Thomas who needed to feel him before he belived. Thus their hope that he was the messiah must have been dashed, when he died.
So Judas just like any other man would have gone to the priests, those that are religious and ask of them for mercy in order to soothe his conscionce before men, had he asked of God and repented such as Peter then he would have not hanged himself.
Peter made a mistake but when he saw Jesus, he jumped out of the fishing boat and greeted him, thus proving that he had repented. Also the place that he Judas paid 30 pieces for is known as the field of blood, and this is where Judas hanged himself falling head first, gushing belly in half.
So what is the future of Judas if he did not repent?, according to UR he will be thrown into the lake of fire, but there is another possiblity that he can repent before this time during the 1000 millenium peace.
Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.
These priests are the same ones that conspired with Judas to betray Jesus, I don't think they'd be concerned that Judas was holy or not, they were part of the conspiracy and like typical villains they deny their part and put the blame solely on Judas, their pawn.
Quote from: thinktank on August 21, 2010, 10:13:38 PM
:thumbdown: :laughing7:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteJudas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the ground in the "naos"(Holy Place) part of the temple. Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.
Blood money. Meaning the priest Judas, nope not Rob Halford :winkgrin:, sprinkled blood of the Lamb in the Temple......
Quote# Judas repented and declared Jesus innocent and confessed his sin
I just says Judas killed himself. It doesn't say why.
QuoteI'm not convinced, if Judas repented he would not have hanged himself.
Strange conclusion...
a] If he repents he could have felt so bad he killed himself.
b] If he just followed orders of Jesus he still could feel so bad he killed himself.
c] If he was truely possed by satan for a while he would feel very bad and killed himself.
QuoteBut given the fact that the scriptures call him a thief, he probably didn't even believe in God or Jesus.
How did the Scriptures call Saul/Paul?
Judas was a priest. His whole family was. I think the chance is good he truely believed in God.
Why on 30 shekels? That was almost nothing. The high priests would surely payed more because they feared Jesus would start a riot on passover when the city was packed with pelgrims. Nah,
30 shekels was the price of a slave....QuoteThe other disciples did not believe in Jesus so why would Judas, by that I mean that when Jesus died, they went back to business and probably lost hope that he was to rise again, given the questions they had, such as Thomas who needed to feel him before he belived. Thus their hope that he was the messiah must have been dashed, when he died.
Neither did they believe Mary when she told the grave was empty. But what has that to do with Judas?
QuoteSo Judas just like any other man would have gone to the priests, those that are religious and ask of them for mercy in order to soothe his conscionce before men, had he asked of God and repented such as Peter then he would have not hanged himself.
The priests would have not given ant mercy because in their eyes Judas has done something perfect. He helped to kill a great blasphemer as instructed in the laws of Moses.
QuotePeter made a mistake but when he saw Jesus, he jumped out of the fishing boat and greeted him, thus proving that he had repented.
Why didn't he repent by killing himself like Judas? That would be even more convincing repentance....
QuoteAlso the place that he Judas paid 30 pieces for is known as the field of blood, and this is where Judas hanged himself falling head first, gushing belly in half.
And again something that fits requirements of a passover lamb....
QuoteSo what is the future of Judas if he did not repent?, according to UR he will be thrown into the lake of fire, but there is another possiblity that he can repent before this time during the 1000 millenium peace.
LoF is after the millenium. Rev 20:4-5
QuoteOnly a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.
These priests are the same ones that conspired with Judas to betray Jesus, I don't think they'd be concerned that Judas was holy or not, they were part of the conspiracy and like typical villains they deny their part and put the blame solely on Judas, their pawn.
It's crucial that a priest sprinkles the blood. If a non priest would have done it then Jesus would
not have been a passover Lamb. And His death wouldn't have taken away even 1 sin. Meaning His death would have been useless....
:2c: :thumbsup:
Strange conclusion...
a] If he repents he could have felt so bad he killed himself.
b] If he just followed orders of Jesus he still could feel so bad he killed himself.
c] If he was truely possed by satan for a while he would feel very bad and killed himself.
If he truly repented the lord would have forgiven him. This is what happened to Peter.
I don't think no man in his position would be able to handle what he did, but in my mind I think that Judas thought he killed an innocent man but not the son of God.
How did the Scriptures call Saul/Paul?
Judas was a priest. His whole family was. I think the chance is good he truely believed in God.
Why on 30 shekels? That was almost nothing. The high priests would surely payed more because they feared Jesus would start a riot on passover when the city was packed with pelgrims. Nah, 30 shekels was the price of a slave....
The priests (not all) tend to rely more upon others who heard from God, such as Moses and Abraham, thus proving that their faith is not in God but in the arm of the flesh, mankind.
They rely on Abraham that he had revelation from God, but do not actively seek God themselves, but rather make a law based system where the priests are seen as something special. In otherwords they became priests for the earthly benefits the position gives, such as status, power, pride.
The priests probably gave Judas 30 shiekels as proof that he was their slave a symbolic insult, that he being of the priestly order did not even comprehend because, as often happens, when a man is full greed as Judas was, he did not even realize this insult towards him.
Neither did they believe Mary when she told the grave was empty. But what has that to do with Judas?
Not conclusive but it proves that if the others who were close to Jesus lost hope, why would Judas be any different. For none of them had the holy ghost, so it's highly unlikely that Judas belived that Jesus was the messiah, when Peter and John did not.
The priests would have not given ant mercy because in their eyes Judas has done something perfect. He helped to kill a great blasphemer as instructed in the laws of Moses
If he did something perfect and good in thier sight then why did they not offer him any hope or forgivness or even a congratulations. They knew they did evil and they passed the buck onto Judas by denying their involvement.
Why didn't he repent by killing himself like Judas? That would be even more convincing repentance....
That would not be repentance, that would be guilt. True repentance means the forgivness of sins, thus no more condemnation for them in Christ Jesus.
Also the place that he Judas paid 30 pieces for is known as the field of blood, and this is where Judas hanged himself falling head first, gushing belly in half.
And again something that fits requirements of a passover lamb....
Not sure what you mean here. Judas the passover lamb?
It's crucial that a priest sprinkles the blood. If a non priest would have done it then Jesus would not have been a passover Lamb. And His death wouldn't have taken away even 1 sin. Meaning His death would have been useless....
Interesting, but I don't think his death would have been useless, I think your refering to "I came to fullfill the law" not sure how crucial this is.
Quote from: thinktank on August 22, 2010, 09:16:15 PM
Strange conclusion...
a] If he repents he could have felt so bad he killed himself.
b] If he just followed orders of Jesus he still could feel so bad he killed himself.
c] If he was truely possed by satan for a while he would feel very bad and killed himself.
If he truly repented the lord would have forgiven him.
Let's say Judas very truely repented and God dit forgive him. But if Judas still goes on to kill himself... I think the suicide at least shows Judas was not very proud on what he did. It's also weird Judas betrays Jesus and almost instantly kills himself.
QuoteI don't think no man in his position would be able to handle what he did, but in my mind I think that Judas thought he killed an innocent man but not the son of God.
Judas has seen His miracles. I think he knew far more about Jesus that we do.
Quote
How did the Scriptures call Saul/Paul?
Judas was a priest. His whole family was. I think the chance is good he truely believed in God.
Why on 30 shekels? That was almost nothing. The high priests would surely payed more because they feared Jesus would start a riot on passover when the city was packed with pelgrims. Nah, 30 shekels was the price of a slave....
The priests (not all) tend to rely more upon others who heard from God, such as Moses and Abraham, thus proving that their faith is not in God but in the arm of the flesh, mankind.
They rely on Abraham that he had revelation from God, but do not actively seek God themselves, but rather make a law based system where the priests are seen as something special. In otherwords they became priests for the earthly benefits the position gives, such as status, power, pride.
Does that matter? Basicly you are saying everyone without a direct vision/revelation from God just follows teachings of men.
But even that doesn't matter. The priests followed the laws of Moses. Perhaps they completly misunderstood those laws. But still they followed the laws.
QuoteThe priests probably gave Judas 30 shiekels as proof that he was their slave a symbolic insult, that he being of the priestly order did not even comprehend because, as often happens, when a man is full greed as Judas was, he did not even realize this insult towards him.
Judas is supposed to be a thief and betrayed out of greed. And then he asks almost nothing for his betrayal... Doesn't add up.
QuoteNeither did they believe Mary when she told the grave was empty. But what has that to do with Judas?
Not conclusive but it proves that if the others who were close to Jesus lost hope, why would Judas be any different. For none of them had the holy ghost, so it's highly unlikely that Judas belived that Jesus was the messiah, when Peter and John did not.
So basicly none of the 12 really believed in Jesus....?
In that aspect Judas was no different. But shortly after they were told they checked the grave themselfs.
QuoteThe priests would have not given any mercy because in their eyes Judas has done something perfect. He helped to kill a great blasphemer as instructed in the laws of Moses[/color]
If he did something perfect and good in thier sight then why did they not offer him any hope or forgivness or even a congratulations. They knew they did evil and they passed the buck onto Judas by denying their involvement.
imo a priest can't forgive anything. Forgiveness is between man and God and between the persons involved. But something could just have snapped in Judas head and just ran to his doom like a lemming.
I want to mention that I do not rule out that Judas betrayed my orders of Jesus himself. Betrayed is a very negative translation. And possibly not the best.
paradidōmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one's) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself
QuoteWhy didn't he repent by killing himself like Judas? That would be even more convincing repentance....
That would not be repentance, that would be guilt. True repentance means the forgivness of sins, thus no more condemnation for them in Christ Jesus.
Repentance
is acknowledging guild.... Again assuming there was anything to repent for.
It's crucial that a priest sprinkles the blood. If a non priest would have done it then Jesus would not have been a passover Lamb. And His death wouldn't have taken away even 1 sin. Meaning His death would have been useless....
Interesting, but I don't think his death would have been useless, I think your refering to "I came to fullfill the law" not sure how crucial this is.
Yes he came to fullfill the law. And that law describes how lamb should be sacrifised. If not every step of that law is followed then the sacrifice was not valid.
Jesus can only be our passover Lamb if He was sacrifised like an ordinary lamb.
:2c:
Reminder - according to Rev. E.E. Guild - Both Jeremiah and Job (men of God) both stated "it would have been better if they had not been born". This is not to be strictly and literally interpreted , as they were proverbial forms of speech among Jews. Judas repented, and there is no scriptural evidence he is/[remained] lost - NOR, that Judas hanged himself. The Greek word apegxato was incorrectly rendered "hanged self", when it actually can mean "being suffocated or strangled with grief". [and that in his grief, he fell headlong]
:thinking:
It's not only a Jewish saying. How many of us heared a parent say the same. We all still live.(physicly...) And looking back the punishment was mild.
Personly I still don't figured out what the verse means.
WHO has better not be born.
Judas because Father is gonna beat the crap out of him. Or just that Judas has be given such a horrible task.
Or was is Jesus? If Judas wasn't born then he couldn't have betrayed Jesus. That's better for Jesus.
/EDIT very literal translation. Word for word from the Greek.
Verse 21 (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mar14.pdf)
Does that matter? Basicly you are saying everyone without a direct vision/revelation from God just follows teachings of men.
But even that doesn't matter. The priests followed the laws of Moses. Perhaps they completly misunderstood those laws. But still they followed the laws.
No I'm saying that they did not seek God and had no interest, what they did have interest in were man made tradditions and studying the law so that they may condemn and control others. The use the writings of Moses to condem others, they search the scriptures but refuse to come to God for life.
Judas is supposed to be a thief and betrayed out of greed. And then he asks almost nothing for his betrayal... Doesn't add up.
If you want something badly you'll go get it, no matter. Judas wanted that field called the field of blood and it seems that 30 shiekels was enough to cover the cost. The greed of Judas is what made him betray the son of man, regardless of whether it was necessary, the betrayal was made, men make excuses for sins by placing the blame on God but it's our own heart that does evil.
So basicly none of the 12 really believed in Jesus....?
In that aspect Judas was no different. But shortly after they were told they checked the grave themselfs.
They checked the graves, but did they really believe or were they just interested.
Repentance is acknowledging guild.... Again assuming there was anything to repent for.
Of course there was a need to repent, the man spilled innocent blood, he even confessed with his own mouth to the priests.
The scripture says that none of them is lost except the son of perdition, so to me Judas did not repent and lost his position as one of the 12 apostles and now his position has been taken by someone in the book of acts.
QuoteJudas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the ground in the "naos"(Holy Place) part of the temple. Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.
QuoteBlood money. Meaning the priest Judas, nope not Rob Halford , sprinkled blood of the Lamb in the Temple......
That's very interesting. Was Judas a spy for the priests all along?
What is so strange about this highly placed group--they were trying to kill the Messiah from the days of Herod.
Herod's massacre of baby boys was just the opening act. They didn't even want him to grow to adulthood.
And, then we see, when he begins his ministry, they are sending groups out to investigate any sighting that could possibly be the Messiah. For what purpose? Never once did they show any real interest in what he had to say--except to try to entrap him. But, they knew he would be the right age, because they knew scripture, they knew the prophecies, and they could just count forward from the time of the Magi.
They knew who he was.
So Judas was one of them--and also able to be indwelt by Satan. So what is really going on here? Why would this group be so intent on killing the Messiah?
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. --Mat 3
"brood"G1081
γέννημα
gennēmaghen'-nay-mah
From G1080;
offspring; by analogy produce (literally or figuratively): - fruit, generation.
"of vipers"G2191
εχιδνα
echidna
ekh'-id-nah
Of uncertain origin; an adder or other
poisonous snake (literally or figuratively): - viper.
Quote from: thinktank on August 22, 2010, 11:56:18 PM
Does that matter? Basicly you are saying everyone without a direct vision/revelation from God just follows teachings of men.
But even that doesn't matter. The priests followed the laws of Moses. Perhaps they completly misunderstood those laws. But still they followed the laws.
No I'm saying that they did not seek God and had no interest, what they did have interest in were man made tradditions and studying the law so that they may condemn and control others. The use the writings of Moses to condem others, they search the scriptures but refuse to come to God for life.
All true. But still
in their view they were acting according to the will of God. Note "in their view". So also in their view Judas did the right thing. It would be just a s strange for the priests to forgive an, in their eyes, perfect act as it would be for Jesus to ask forgiveness because He never sinned.
Quote
Judas is supposed to be a thief and betrayed out of greed. And then he asks almost nothing for his betrayal... Doesn't add up.
If you want something badly you'll go get it, no matter.
Ok, that's your view. My view is that Judas could have got much more. But he asks 30. 30 is very symbolic. 30 is the value of a slave. When you read more literal translations you see the followers of Jesus are called slaves.
QuoteQuoteJudas wanted that field called the field of blood and it seems that 30 shiekels was enough to cover the cost. The greed of Judas is what made him betray the son of man, regardless of whether it was necessary, the betrayal was made, men make excuses for sins by placing the blame on God but it's our own heart that does evil.
And with 31 he also could have bought a beer....
QuoteRepentance is acknowledging guild.... Again assuming there was anything to repent for.
Of course there was a need to repent, the man spilled innocent blood, he even confessed with his own mouth to the priests.
Surely Jesus was innocent. But that doesn't proof Judas did or didn't betray Jesus.
QuoteThe scripture says that none of them is lost except the son of perdition, so to me Judas did not repent and lost his position as one of the 12 apostles and now his position has been taken by someone in the book of acts.
Ok, I'll follow your thought of repentance. He brought back the shekels. Repentance #1. He walked away and felt so bad his troat choked (didn't hang himself) Repentance #2. Finally he took his own life. Repentance #3
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2010, 05:36:19 AM
QuoteJudas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the ground in the "naos"(Holy Place) part of the temple. Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.
QuoteBlood money. Meaning the priest Judas, nope not Rob Halford , sprinkled blood of the Lamb in the Temple......
That's very interesting. Was Judas a spy for the priests all along?
How did you conclude that?
QuoteWhat is so strange about this highly placed group--they were trying to kill the Messiah from the days of Herod.
Herod's massacre of baby boys was just the opening act. They didn't even want him to grow to adulthood.
I think that was more because of the insanity of Herod. He was obsessed with thoughts that someon may steal his throne. Not very weird btw, because most of the Roman leaders were killed.
QuoteAnd, then we see, when he begins his ministry, they are sending groups out to investigate any sighting that could possibly be the Messiah. For what purpose? Never once did they show any real interest in what he had to say--except to try to entrap him. But, they knew he would be the right age, because they knew scripture, they knew the prophecies, and they could just count forward from the time of the Magi.
They knew who he was.
I really doubt that. If they knew they could have done many things to invalidate the phrophesies. They could have payed Judas 31 shekels. They could have asked/payed the Roman soldier with the hammer to break His legs (as usually was done) Etc (do you think they would kill their messiah?)
Quote from: wwHow did you conclude that?
Judas was a hitman? A contract killer employed by the priests? :dontknow:
Sicarii (Latin plural of Sicarius 'dagger-men' or later
contract-killer) is a term applied, in the decades immediately preceding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, (probably) to an extremist splinter group[1] of the Jewish Zealots, who attempted to expel the Romans and their partisans from Judea using concealed daggers (sicae).
"When Albinus reached the city of Jerusalem,[2] he bent every effort and made every provision to ensure peace in the land by exterminating most of the Sicarii."
—Josephus, Jewish Antiquities (xx.208)
The Sicarii used stealth tactics to obtain their objective. Under their cloaks they concealed sicae, or small daggers, from which they received their name. At popular assemblies, particularly during the pilgrimage to the Temple Mount, they stabbed their enemies (Romans or Roman sympathizers, Herodians, and wealthy Jews comfortable with Roman rule), lamenting ostentatiously after the deed to blend into the crowd to escape detection. Literally, Sicarii meant "dagger-men".[3]
The victims of the Sicarii included Jonathan the High Priest, though it is possible that his murder was orchestrated by the Roman governor Felix. Some of their murders were met with severe retaliation by the Romans on the entire Jewish population of the country. On some occasions, they could be bribed to spare their intended victims. As with Barabbas, even convicted Sicarii were occasionally released on promising to spare their opponents, though there is no evidence for this practice outside the Gospels, which are largely in accord on this point. Once, Josephus relates, after kidnapping the secretary of Eleazar, governor of the Temple precincts, they agreed to release him in exchange for ten of their captured comrades.
At the beginning of the Jewish Revolt (66 AD), the Sicarii, and (possibly) Zealot helpers (Josephus differentiated between the two but did not explain the main differences in depth), gained access to Jerusalem and committed a series of atrocities, in order to force the population to war. In one account, given in the Talmud, they destroyed the city's food supply so that the people would be forced to fight against the Roman siege instead of negotiating peace. Their leaders, including Menahem ben Jair, Eleazar ben Ya'ir, and Simon Bar Giora, were important figures in the war, and Eleazar ben Ya'ir eventually succeeded in escaping the Roman onslaught. Together with a small group of followers, he made his way to the abandoned fortress of Masada where he continued his resistance to the Romans until 73 AD, when the Romans took the fortress and, according to Josephus, found that most of its defenders had committed suicide rather than surrender.[4]
Masada, looking towards the Dead Sea.
In Josephus' Jewish War (vii), after the fall of the Temple in 70 AD, the sicarii became the dominant revolutionary Jewish party, scattered abroad. Josephus particularly associates them with the mass suicide at Masada in 73 AD and to the subsequent refusal "to submit to the taxation census when Cyrenius was sent to Judea to make one" (Josephus) as part of their religious and political scheme as resistance fighters:
"Some of the faction of the Sicarion...not content with having saved themselves, again embarked on new revolutionary scheming, persuading those that received them there to assert their freedom, to esteem the Romans as no better than themselves and to look upon God as their only Lord and Master" (quoted by Eisenman, p 180).
In the name of
Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus, the epithet "Iscariot" is read by some scholars as a Hellenized transformation, by the simplest metathesis, of sicarius. The suffix "-ote" denotes membership or belonging to - in this case to the sicarii. This meaning is lost when the Greek Gospels are translated into modern Hebrew: Judas is rendered as "Ish-Kerayot," making him a man from the townships. Robert Eisenman presents the general view of secular historians (Eisenman p 179) in identifying him instead as "Judas the Sicarios". Most of the consonants and vowels tally—in Josephus, Sicarioi/Sicariōn; in the New Testament Iscariot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2010, 12:56:59 PM
Quote from: wwHow did you conclude that?
Judas was a hitman? A contract killer employed by the priests? :dontknow:
Sicarii (Latin plural of Sicarius 'dagger-men' or later contract-killer) is a term applied, in the decades immediately preceding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, (probably) to an extremist splinter group[1] of the Jewish Zealots, who attempted to expel the Romans and their partisans from Judea using concealed daggers (sicae).
The priests were more or less friends of the Romans.
The priests still had control over the city as long as they kept things quiet and payed taxes. Usually the Romans didn't really care who did what as long as Ceasar got what belongs to Ceasar.
Besides of that it was cheaper to control the mass with 1 high priests then a 1000 extra troops...
From what I know the priests were not the zealots.
Quote"When Albinus reached the city of Jerusalem,[2] he bent every effort and made every provision to ensure peace in the land by exterminating most of the Sicarii."
—Josephus, Jewish Antiquities (xx.208)
The Sicarii used stealth tactics to obtain their objective. Under their cloaks they concealed sicae, or small daggers, from which they received their name. At popular assemblies, particularly during the pilgrimage to the Temple Mount, they stabbed their enemies (Romans or Roman sympathizers, Herodians, and wealthy Jews comfortable with Roman rule), lamenting ostentatiously after the deed to blend into the crowd to escape detection. Literally, Sicarii meant "dagger-men".[3]
So there objective is to destablize society. In that case their best choice would have been to let Jesus live. There are references to Jesus in Jewish (court) writings. They feared Jesus would cause riots with His
in their eyes heritical views. Riots are a perfect opportunity to annoy Romans and kill some.
QuoteIn the name of Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus, the epithet "Iscariot" is read by some scholars as a Hellenized transformation, by the simplest metathesis, of sicarius. The suffix "-ote" denotes membership or belonging to - in this case to the sicarii.
Real stealth :laughing7:
So the secret killer called himself Judas of-the-kick-Romans-out-of-Judea-group.
You see the fact that Judas was a priest as complot. Was this his first chance to kill Jesus?
Anyway I see Judas' priesthood as carefully selected by Jesus to make sure a priest would sprinkle the blood.
A small group was very highly motivated to execute him. :dontknow:
Twelve reasons why the arrest
and conviction of Jesus was illegal.
The trial of Jesus Christ was without legal precedent. He was convicted and executed even though Pilate (the local Roman authority) found Him innocent! Let's briefly notice the twelve outstanding reasons why the arrest, trial and conviction of Jesus were illegal.
There was no legal basis for Jesus' arrest because no one had presented a formal charge of any crime; He simply was taken. Moreover, those who went with Judas to have Jesus arrested included the priests and elders--His judges (Luke 22:52)--among whom were the ones who bribed Judas!
Jesus was subjected to a secret preliminary examination at night (John 18:12-14, 19-23), Jewish law permitted only daylight proceedings.
The indictment against Jesus was illegal because the judges themselves brought up the charge without any prior testimony by witnesses. The Jewish court (the Sanhedrin) by law was not allowed to originate charges.
The court illegally proceeded to hold its trial of Jesus before sunrise so no one would be available to testify on His behalf.
The trial began on a day before an annual Sabbath (John 18:28), even though Jewish law did not permit the trial of a capital offense to begin on a Friday or the day before an annual Sabbath. Jesus was arrested and tried on the 14th of Abib, the day before the first annual Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Jesus' trial was concluded in one day. Jewish law says: "If a sentence of death is to be pronounced, it [a criminal case] cannot be concluded before the following day" (Mishna, "Sanhedrin" IV, 1). This was to allow sufficient opportunity for any witnesses in support of the accused to present themselves. Jesus' trial was conducted in private and completed in less than nine hours!
Two false witnesses charged Jesus with saying He would destroy the temple made with hands (Mark 14:58); yet He was condemned by the court on another false charge--that of blasphemy. He was condemned on His own testimony (Luke 22:67-71). But according to Jewish law, a person could not be condemned on his own testimony.
The merits of Jesus' defense were not considered. Despite Deuteronomy 13:14, the high priest did not "inquire, and make search, and ask diligently" to see whether Jesus' statement was blasphemous. The law in the Misha says: "The judges shall weigh the matter in the sincerity of their conscience" ("Sanhedrin" IV, 5). Instead, the court pronounced sentence instantly and unanimously!
Those who would have voted against condemnation were not at Jesus' trial. Joseph of Arimathaea was a member of the court, yet he was not there (Luke 23:50-51). Jesus' opponents had made sure that only those who hated Him would be there.
The sentence was pronounced in a place forbidden by law. The trial took place at the high priest's house (Luke 22:54). According to the law, a death sentence could be pronounced only in the court's appointed place.
Most of the judges were legally disqualified to try Jesus. Some had bought their way into office, according to Josephus. Also, since they were known enemies of Jesus, Jewish law required that they disqualify themselves so He could be tried by impartial judges.
The court illegally switched the charges from blasphemy to treason before Pilate. Jesus' opponents wanted Him killed, but they did not want to do it themselves. So they charged Him with treason (Luke 23:2)--a Roman crime--so the Romans would be responsible for His death. No evidence was presented (John 18:29-30). Pilate, after a brief interview, saw that Jesus was not guilty (John 18:38, 19; Matthew 27:18). Fearing the crowd, however, he allowed the crucifixion of an innocent man. Pilate did not even pronounce Him guilty; he merely turned Him over to the soldiers.
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/twelve-reasons-why-arrest-conviction-of-jesus-was-illegal.html
Quote from: wwReal stealth
So the secret killer called himself Judas of-the-kick-Romans-out-of-Judea-group.
well, clearly the writers of the gospels wrote that to identify him....as who or what?
John 12:3-6
"Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. 4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein."
All true. But still in their view they were acting according to the will of God. Note "in their view". So also in their view Judas did the right thing. It would be just a s strange for the priests to forgive an, in their eyes, perfect act as it would be for Jesus to ask forgiveness because He never sinned
From their view they thought they did the right thing, possibly. When they shouted blasphemy were they doing it to please God or were they doing it in order to try and trip up Jesus and kill him. How can we tell, whether they are doing it for God or whether they are doing it in order to kill Jesus, a troublemaker for them, for he exposes the evils of the priests.
Ok, that's your view. My view is that Judas could have got much more. But he asks 30. 30 is very symbolic. 30 is the value of a slave. When you read more literal translations you see the followers of Jesus are called slaves.
So your saying that Judas deliberatly asked for 30 shiekels in order to say to all," hello everybody I am a slave." Judas surely would know that 30 shiekels is a price of a slave. But my argument is that he was so full of greed, so that fact went over his head.
Jesus says to the disciples I no longer call you servants but friends.
And with 31 he also could have bought a beer....
There's allways a limit point. He wanted the field, he didnt want to blow his chance by asking for too much. Human psychology, when someone is deprived they think that, that is normal, Judas may have thought that others had the same motive as him and that is a strong possibility. How many today would think "hey look this Jesus character is going to be betrayed, so let's take advantage, this is great way to make some easy money, after all hes gonna die anyway". Quite a few I imagine
Surely Jesus was innocent. But that doesn't proof Judas did or didn't betray Jesus.
Jesus said himself, that Judas betrayed him. He that betrayeth me is at hand.
Betrayeth you the son of man with a kiss
Ok, I'll follow your thought of repentance. He brought back the shekels. Repentance #1. He walked away and felt so bad his troat choked (didn't hang himself) Repentance #2. Finally he took his own life. Repentance #3
Only appeared repentance. I opened my bible last night and found this passage
Hebrews 12 :16
Esau found no repentance even though he sought it carefully with tears.
Esau had no repentance, so why would Judas. There is only room for 12 disciples and one apostle took his position in the book of acts. Jesus said he is lost. When Stephen died, there wasn't set up a replacment apostle, but there was one set up for Judas, fo rhe lost his place.
This idea of Judas isn't that bad is something of a modern phenomana and I think that it is the devil trying to annoy and shame Jesus Christ once more, by downplaying the sin of Judas and the words of Jesus that he is lost.
2 corinthians 2 11
lest satan should get an advantage over us for we are not ignorant of his devices
Quote from: thinktank on August 23, 2010, 08:51:23 PMSo your saying that Judas deliberatly asked for 30 shiekels in order to say to all," hello everybody I am a slave." Judas surely would know that 30 shiekels is a price of a slave. But my argument is that he was so full of greed, so that fact went over his head.
The seller and buyer are not the slave. If he was full of greed he would have asked 300.
QuoteAnd with 31 he also could have bought a beer....
There's allways a limit point. He wanted the field, he didnt want to blow his chance by asking for too much.
Human psychology, when someone is deprived they think that, that is normal, Judas may have thought that others had the same motive as him and that is a strong possibility. How many today would think "hey look this Jesus character is going to be betrayed, so let's take advantage, this is great way to make some easy money, after all hes gonna die anyway". Quite a few I imagine
Let's agre to disagree.
QuoteSurely Jesus was innocent. But that doesn't prove Judas did or didn't betray Jesus.
Jesus said himself, that Judas betrayed him. He that betrayeth me is at hand.
Betrayeth you the son of man with a kiss
Handed over... It can mean many things.
Thayer Definition:
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one's) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself
Quote
Ok, I'll follow your thought of repentance. He brought back the shekels. Repentance #1. He walked away and felt so bad his throat choked (didn't hang himself) Repentance #2. Finally he took his own life. Repentance #3
Only appeared repentance. I opened my bible last night and found this passage
Hebrews 12 :16
Esau found no repentance even though he sought it carefully with tears.
Esau had no repentance, so why would Judas.
We can't know if he repented. Only God can. And certainly not someone who didn't see/know Judas.
QuoteThere is only room for 12 disciples and one apostle took his position in the book of acts. Jesus said he is lost. When Stephen died, there wasn't set up a replacment apostle, but there was one set up for Judas, fo rhe lost his place.
All apostles are dead. Where are there replacements?
This idea of Judas isn't that bad is something of a modern phenomana (http://this%20idea%20of%20judas%20isn't%20that%20bad%20is%20something%20of%20a%20modern%20phenomana)I'm not part of that phenomena. But I'm a free thinker. I seek with an open mind. I don't feel restrained by what billions before me said. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying Judas didn't betray Jesus. I'm just not sure. Reading more literal translations, meaning of words, the flow of a verse and other little thinks truely make me wonder if Judas really betrayed Jesus or handed Him over because he was ordered so.
Quoteand I think that it is the devil trying to annoy and shame Jesus Christ once more, by downplaying the sin of Judas and the words of Jesus that he is lost.
It's just the other way around TT. It is, at least for me, even more glorious when Jesus in a way ordered His own death by sending Judas.
Good stuff everyone yet the Judas person and story, to me, makes perfect sense when I see Judas as that within me that not only betrays Jesus daily, but also is fullfilling God's desire for us all. When I try to understand 'Judas' in a physical way, unending words and arguments come into my head.
cp
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 15, 2010, 07:49:19 PM
Was Judas replaced because of his death, or his deeds.?
I think because of the practical matter of his death. Peter's action in using a mechanism of pure chance to choose Matthias was typical of his impulsiveness, and so it was done. But Matthias was not God's choice. So that brings us down to Paul- and he said "I am the least of the apostles" and "an apostle born out of time". As Peter was only trying to maintain that magic "religious" number 12, God fulfilled it in another person- Paul, who was "the light to the Gentiles" for whom the number 12 never had any significance, as it did with the religious Jews.
So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.
Quote from: coldwar on August 26, 2010, 05:15:56 PM
So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.
He was the one standing there when Jesus told them...
I vote for Paul, with Mathias second choice. The twelveth disciple would have to be the Apostle Paul, an 'apostle born out of time, ' picked by Jesus himself to bring the gospel to the Gentiles.
After Judas leaves the supper to betray Jesus, the remaining disciples are told this by Jesus--
"Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions [Greek, mone, abodes, dwellings, plural]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know."
• John 14:1–4
Therefore, Judas is not privy to that promise. The mansions depicted here could be understood by the apostles to be the quarters of the priests within the Temple [Father's house.]
It is Paul who tells us that our bodies are the temple of God.
"For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
--Heb 11
This is a supernatural city built on the teachings of the Apostles, whose names [message] are the foundation of the city. Judas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
• Revelation 21
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 06:11:20 PMI vote for Paul, with Mathias second choice.
Mathias wasn't chosen by Father or Son so imo he has no chance for a throne.
What if there are 13 thrones?
I know the verses are abour 12 tribes; but isn't there a missing tribe. Judged by the missing apostle :laughing7:
(Matthew 19:28) And, Jesus, said unto them––Verily, I say unto you, As for you who followed me in the regeneration, When the Son of Man shall take his seat on his throne of glory, ye also, shall be seated upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Regeneration = rebirth -> Physical of spiritual rebirth?
Followed means come after. Or follow teachings.
Judas died before Jesus but obviously his rebirth is after Jesus.
If it is spiritual rebirth then when were they reborn? During His ministry? Or when the HS decent upon them?
If after ministry obviously Judas is excluded.
If Jesus made a promise that included Judas he could never have lost his throne because that would mean Jesus lied.
So Judas never lost his throne. He will sit on a throne or he was never promised a throne.
"As for you who followed me" => The way I read this does not have to mean all.
willieH: Hi bro James... :friendstu:
Quote from: jabcat on August 26, 2010, 05:38:14 PM
Quote from: coldwar on August 26, 2010, 05:15:56 PM
So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.
He was the one standing there when Jesus told them...
:iagree: :thumbsup:
...willieH :cloud9:
Traditional division:
1 Reuben
2 Simeon
3 Judah
4 Issachar
5 Zebulun
6 Dan
7 Naphtali
8 Gad
9 Asher
10 Benjamin
11 Joseph
12 Levi
Division according to apportionment of land in Israel:
1 Reuben
2 Simeon
3 Judah
4 Issachar
5 Zebulun
6 Dan
7 Naphtali
8 Gad
9 Asher
10 Benjamin
11 Ephraim (son of Joseph)
12 Manasseh (son of Joseph)
13 Levi (no territorial allotment, except a number of cities located within the territories of the other tribes)
So 12 apostles, 12 thrones and 12 tribes with land.
1 replaced apostle, 1 tribe without a land and 1 Judas (a Levite)
Can't say what but I feel there is "something there".... :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 07:53:38 PM
(Matthew 19:28) And, Jesus, said unto them––Verily, I say unto you, As for you who followed me in the regeneration, When the Son of Man shall take his seat on his throne of glory, ye also, shall be seated upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Regeneration = rebirth -> Physical of spiritual rebirth?
Followed means come after. Or follow teachings.
Judas died before Jesus but obviously his rebirth is after Jesus.
If it is spiritual rebirth then when were they reborn? During His ministry? Or when the HS decent upon them?
If after ministry obviously Judas is excluded.
If Jesus made a promise that included Judas he could never have lost his throne because that would mean Jesus lied.
So Judas never lost his throne. He will sit on a throne or he was never promised a throne.
"As for you who followed me" => The way I read this it not have to mean all.
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
--John 17
Only one was lost, the son of destruction--referenced in these verses [that the Scripture might be fulfilled]--
8May his days be few;
may another take his office!--Psalm 109
16"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20"For it is written in the Book of Psalms,
"'May his camp become desolate,
and let there be no one to dwell in it';
and
"'Let another take his office.'
--Acts 1
His camp, the Priests, did become desolate. And, another did, indeed, take his office.
"office"Greek
G1984
ἐπισκοπή
episkopēep-is-kop-ay'
From G1980; inspection (for relief); by implication superintendence; specifically the Christian "episcopate": -
the office of a "bishop", bishoprick, visitation.
Hebrew
H6486
פּקדּה
peqûddâhpek-ood-daw'
Feminine passive participle of H6485; visitation (in many senses, chiefly official): - account, (that have the) charge, custody, that which . . . laid up, numbers,
office (-r), ordering, oversight, + prison, reckoning, visitation.
H6485
פּקד
pâqad
paw-kad'
A primitive root; to visit (with friendly or hostile intent); by analogy
to oversee, muster, charge, care for, miss, deposit, etc.: - appoint, X at all, avenge, bestow, (appoint to have the, give a) charge, commit, count, deliver to keep, be empty, enjoin, go see, hurt, do judgment, lack, lay up look, make X by any means, miss, number, officer, (make) overseer have (the) oversight, punish, reckon, (call to) remember (-brance), set (over), sum, X surely, visit, want.
Quote from: willieH on August 26, 2010, 07:56:10 PM
willieH: Hi bro James... :friendstu:
Quote from: jabcat on August 26, 2010, 05:38:14 PM
Quote from: coldwar on August 26, 2010, 05:15:56 PM
So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.
He was the one standing there when Jesus told them...
:iagree: :thumbsup:
...willieH :cloud9:
fistbump :bigGrin:
Quote from: wwSo 12 apostles, 12 thrones and 12 tribes with land.
1 replaced apostle
One replaced apostle [disciple, really]. One replaced tribe.
From Revelation 7, the tribe of Dan has been replaced--
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"
See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"
Quote from: jabcat on August 26, 2010, 08:57:11 PM
Quote from: willieH on August 26, 2010, 07:56:10 PM
willieH: Hi bro James... :friendstu:
Quote from: jabcat on August 26, 2010, 05:38:14 PM
Quote from: coldwar on August 26, 2010, 05:15:56 PM
So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.
He was the one standing there when Jesus told them...
:iagree: :thumbsup:
...willieH :cloud9:
fistbump :bigGrin:
Footbump :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 09:06:51 PM
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"
See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"
Nah..nice try, though.
21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
--Mark 14
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 08:58:17 PMOne replaced apostle [disciple, really]. One replaced tribe.
I showed something similar. My question is why? A most of all has it relavance to Judas.
Yes, Judas was replaced.
Yes, many verses speak about 12 tribes, 12 thrones, 12 apostles.
But tribes among the 12 tribes changed as you wrote.
And I showed there was an extra "tribe".
So we have 12 tribes, but at the same time we have more tribes.
We have 12 on the throne and at the same time 13?????
I truely believe Father can count 'till 13. But I also truely believe Father can remember 12 names... :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 09:07:37 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 26, 2010, 08:57:11 PM
Quote from: willieH on August 26, 2010, 07:56:10 PM
willieH: Hi bro James... :friendstu:
Quote from: jabcat on August 26, 2010, 05:38:14 PM
Quote from: coldwar on August 26, 2010, 05:15:56 PM
So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.
He was the one standing there when Jesus told them...
:iagree: :thumbsup:
...willieH :cloud9:
fistbump :bigGrin:
Footbump :laughing7:
Footbump right back at'cha.
Although I believe it was Judas, of course I may be wrong. However, I do believe the "better if not been born" statement was about Judas. But, I also take into the equation that Jeremiah and Job also said that about themselves, and that it was reportedly a type of Jewish expression of the time.
I also believe a real key may be "in the regeneration" or "renewal" - as in, Judas fell (haven't we all?), but there
will be a regeneration/renewal (God will be All in
All). God is capable of anything and everything He desires to do. All in All is indeed
ultimate reconciliation. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 09:06:51 PM
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"
See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"
Nah..nice try, though.
21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
--Mark 14
Sloppy translation.
him --->
Him.
So can we trust
he?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 09:22:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 09:06:51 PM
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"
See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"
Nah..nice try, though.
21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
--Mark 14
Sloppy translation. him ---> Him.
So can we trust he?
It's just the way English works. he references 'that man' and that man references the traitor.
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 09:52:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 09:22:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 09:06:51 PM
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"
See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"
Nah..nice try, though.
21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
--Mark 14
Sloppy translation. him ---> Him.
So can we trust he?
It's just the way English works. he references 'that man' and that man references the traitor.
Depends greatly on the translation. Not even that. It's not the translation but the Greek.
And in the Bible caps are used for the divine...
You always seem to like quoting word meanings.
Why don't you quote the meaning of traitor....?
I'll make easy for you.
paradidōmi
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one's) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself
I hope you agree there is zero proof for traitor in that word meaning. It's just one of the meanings. (And I don't rule out a bit biased)
KJVLuk 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
Here we have another word for traitor:
prodotēs
to give away, to betray. A betrayer, traitor
A very nice verse list in the next post....
Stay tuned. :winkgrin:
I used my software to search for paradidōmi (Mark 14:21)
And found the word in the following verses. Some are OT but the search was in a Greek translation.
KJVGen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
KJVGen 27:20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought it to me.
KJVExo 21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.
KJVExo 23:31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.
KJVLev 26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
Num. 21:2f,34
Num. 32:4
Deut. 1:8,21,27
Deut. 2:24,30f,33,36
Deut. 3:2f
Deut. 7:2,23f
Deut. 19:12
Deut. 20:13,20
Deut. 21:10
Deut. 23:15f
Deut. 28:7
Deut. 31:5
Deut. 32:30
Jos. 2:14,24
Jos. 6:2,16
Jos. 7:7
Jos. 8:18
Jos. 10:8,12,19,30,32,35
Jos. 11:6,8
Jos. 21:44
Jos. 24:8,10f,33
Jda. 2:14,23
Jda. 3:10,28
Jda. 4:7,14
Jda. 6:1,13
Jda. 7:2,7,9,14f
Jda. 8:3
Jda. 11:9,21,30,32
Jda. 12:3
Jda. 13:1
Jda. 15:12f
Jda. 16:23f
Jda. 18:10
Jda. 20:28
Jdg. 1:4
Jdg. 2:14,23
Jdg. 3:10,28
Jdg. 4:7,14
Jdg. 7:2,9,14f
Jdg. 8:3
Jdg. 11:9,21,32
Jdg. 13:1
Jdg. 15:13
Jdg. 16:24
1 Sam. 11:12
1 Sam. 14:10,12,37
1 Sam. 17:47
1 Sam. 23:4,14
1 Sam. 24:5,11
1 Sam. 26:23
1 Sam. 28:19
1 Sam. 30:15,23
2 Sam. 5:19
1 Ki. 8:46
2 Ki. 3:13,18
2 Ki. 18:30
2 Ki. 19:10
2 Ki. 21:14
1 Chr. 12:18
2 Chr. 6:36
2 Chr. 13:16
2 Chr. 16:8
2 Chr. 24:24
2 Chr. 25:20
2 Chr. 28:5,9
2 Chr. 30:7
2 Chr. 32:11
2 Chr. 35:12
2 Chr. 36:17
1 Es. 1:50
1 Es. 2:8
1 Es. 6:14,17
1 Es. 8:56,58,61,74
1 Es. 9:39
Ezr. 7:19
Ezr. 9:7
Est. 2:3,13
Est. 4:17
Est. 8:12
Jdt. 6:10
Jdt. 8:9,33
Jdt. 10:15
Jdt. 13:9
Tob. 7:13
Tbs. 7:13
Tbs. 10:10
Tbs. 14:7
1 Ma. 3:34
1 Ma. 4:30
1 Ma. 5:50
1 Ma. 7:35
1 Ma. 10:6,9
1 Ma. 11:40
1 Ma. 12:34,45
1 Ma. 15:21,30
1 Ma. 16:18
2 Ma. 1:17
2 Ma. 10:4
2 Ma. 14:31,33
2 Ma. 15:15
Ps. 9:35
Ps. 26:12
Ps. 40:3
Ps. 62:11
Ps. 73:19
Ps. 77:48,61
Ps. 87:9
Ps. 105:41
Ps. 117:18
Ps. 118:121
Ps. 139:9
Odes 2:30
Odes 7:32,34
Odes 11:13
Prov. 6:1
Prov. 11:8
Prov. 24:22
Prov. 27:24
Prov. 30:10
Job 2:6
Job 9:24
Job 16:11
Job 24:14
Wis. 14:15
Sir. 4:19
Sir. 11:6
Sir. 23:6
Sir. 42:7
Hos. 8:10
Mic. 6:14,16
Zech. 11:6
Isa. 19:4
Isa. 23:7
Isa. 25:5,7
Isa. 33:1,6,23
Isa. 34:2
Isa. 36:15
Isa. 37:10
Isa. 38:12f
Isa. 47:3
Isa. 53:6,12
Isa. 64:6
Isa. 65:12
Jer. 2:24
Jer. 15:4
Jer. 21:10
Jer. 22:25
Jer. 24:8
Jer. 26:24
Jer. 27:2
Jer. 33:24
Jer. 39:4,28,36,43
Jer. 41:2
Jer. 44:17
Jer. 45:3,20
Bar. 4:6
Ezek. 7:21
Ezek. 11:9
Ezek. 16:27,39
Ezek. 21:20,32,34,36
Ezek. 23:9,28
Ezek. 25:4
Ezek. 31:11
Ezek. 39:23
Dan. 1:2
Dan. 2:38
Dan. 3:32,34,95
Dan. 4:17
Dan. 7:25
Dan. 11:11
Dat. 3:32,34,95
Dat. 11:6,11
Bel. 1:22,31
Bet. 1:29f
KJVMat 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
KJVMat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Matt. 10:4,17,19,21
Matt. 11:27
Matt. 17:22
Matt. 18:34
Matt. 20:18f
Matt. 24:9f
Matt. 25:14,20,22
Matt. 26:2,15f,21,23ff,45f,48
Matt. 27:2ff,18,26
KJVMar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mk. 3:19
KJVMar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
Mk. 7:13
Mk. 9:31
Mk. 10:33
Mk. 13:9,11f
Mk. 14:10f,18,21,41f,44
Mk. 15:1,10,15
Lk. 1:2
Lk. 4:6
Lk. 9:44
Lk. 10:22
Lk. 12:58
Lk. 18:32
Lk. 20:20
Lk. 21:12,16
Lk. 22:4,6,21f,48
Lk. 23:25
Lk. 24:7,20
Jn. 6:64,71
Jn. 12:4
Jn. 13:2,11,21
Jn. 18:2,5,30,35f
Jn. 19:11,16,30
Jn. 21:20
Acts 3:13
Acts 6:14
Acts 7:42
Acts 8:3
Acts 12:4
Acts 14:26
Acts 15:26,40
Acts 16:4
Acts 21:11
Acts 22:4
Acts 27:1
Acts 28:17
Rom. 1:24,26,28
Rom. 4:25
KJVRom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom. 8:32
1 Co. 5:5
1 Co. 11:2,23
1 Co. 13:3
1 Co. 15:3,24
2 Co. 4:11
KJVGal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Eph. 4:19
Eph. 5:2,25
1 Tim. 1:20
1 Pet. 2:23
2 Pet. 2:4,21
KJVJud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Don't trust that I quoted things correctly and study theyself approved....
And when you did so you will see paradidōmi is very often used for something else than betrayed.
Maybe in all verses but i simply don't have the time to look up all English translations. All above verses are randomly picked but I on purpose skipped the Judas verses because we can use verse we are discussing as prove.
Jude 1:3 Betrayed to the saints?
Gal 2:20 Jesus betrayed Himself for me?
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 06:11:20 PMJudas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
He only performed miracles. Mwah, big deal..... :mshock:
KJVMat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples,
he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 08:49:27 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 07:53:38 PM
(Matthew 19:28) And, Jesus, said unto them––Verily, I say unto you, As for you who followed me in the regeneration, When the Son of Man shall take his seat on his throne of glory, ye also, shall be seated upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Regeneration = rebirth -> Physical of spiritual rebirth?
Followed means come after. Or follow teachings.
Judas died before Jesus but obviously his rebirth is after Jesus.
If it is spiritual rebirth then when were they reborn? During His ministry? Or when the HS decent upon them?
If after ministry obviously Judas is excluded.
If Jesus made a promise that included Judas he could never have lost his throne because that would mean Jesus lied.
So Judas never lost his throne. He will sit on a throne or he was never promised a throne.
"As for you who followed me" => The way I read this it not have to mean all.
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
--John 17
Only one was lost, the son of destruction--referenced in these verses [that the Scripture might be fulfilled]--
8May his days be few;
may another take his office!
--Psalm 109
16"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20"For it is written in the Book of Psalms,
"'May his camp become desolate,
and let there be no one to dwell in it';
and
"'Let another take his office.'
--Acts 1
His camp, the Priests, did become desolate. And, another did, indeed, take his office.
"office"
Greek
G1984
ἐπισκοπή
episkopē
ep-is-kop-ay'
From G1980; inspection (for relief); by implication superintendence; specifically the Christian "episcopate": - the office of a "bishop", bishoprick, visitation.
Hebrew
H6486
פּקדּה
peqûddâh
pek-ood-daw'
Feminine passive participle of H6485; visitation (in many senses, chiefly official): - account, (that have the) charge, custody, that which . . . laid up, numbers, office (-r), ordering, oversight, + prison, reckoning, visitation.
H6485
פּקד
pâqad
paw-kad'
A primitive root; to visit (with friendly or hostile intent); by analogy to oversee, muster, charge, care for, miss, deposit, etc.: - appoint, X at all, avenge, bestow, (appoint to have the, give a) charge, commit, count, deliver to keep, be empty, enjoin, go see, hurt, do judgment, lack, lay up look, make X by any means, miss, number, officer, (make) overseer have (the) oversight, punish, reckon, (call to) remember (-brance), set (over), sum, X surely, visit, want.
Good scriptures molly :thumbsup: . To me if Judas lost his throne it deosn't mean he has lost his salvation. They are both seperate in my opinion. If you were Jesus would you give the position of authority to the man that betrayed you?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 11:08:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 06:11:20 PMJudas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
He only performed miracles. Mwah, big deal..... :mshock:
KJVMat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Did we not cast out devils by your name and in your name do wonderfull works
depart from me ya workers of iniquity
jesus
Quote from: thinktank on August 26, 2010, 11:09:10 PMGood scriptures molly :thumbsup: . To me if Judas lost his throne it deosn't mean he has lost his salvation. They are both seperate in my opinion. If you were Jesus would you give the position of authority to the man that betrayed you?
Don't try strawman arguments on me TT :punish:
The question isn't if Jesus would give a throne to someone who betrayed Him. (or make him a disciple...)
The question is DID Judas betray Him.
Yes, I can read a little English and I do understand the word betray. But it's not about English but Greek.
Just like hell or grave, forever or age, torture or ED, etc....
I've picked up my first Bible about 2 years ago. If I learned only one thing then it is that, if one
really wants to know things a good look at Hebrew (customs) and Greek is needed.
:friendstu:
Quote from: thinktank on August 26, 2010, 11:11:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 11:08:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 06:11:20 PMJudas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
He only performed miracles. Mwah, big deal..... :mshock:
KJVMat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Did we not cast out devils by your name and in your name do wonderfull works
depart from me ya workers of iniquity
jesus
It's that verse slightly out of context here TT? I don't believe it was about the disciples.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 11:28:54 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 26, 2010, 11:11:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 11:08:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 06:11:20 PMJudas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
He only performed miracles. Mwah, big deal..... :mshock:
KJVMat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Did we not cast out devils by your name and in your name do wonderfull works
depart from me ya workers of iniquity
jesus
It's that verse slightly out of context here TT? I don't believe it was about the disciples.
No, but your argument is that because Judas cast out devils, then that makes him righteous. But according to the scriptures he was a thief. So if we take this statment by Jesus that casting out devils, does not automatically means one is righteous, then how can we say Judas is righteous? even after the scriptures calls him a thief? and the betrayer of Jesus?.
On that not if the word betray is not 100% correct, does it matter? The idea presented is obviously that Judas went against Jesus, as the scriptures say in the psalms "a familiar friend lifted up his heel against me"
I'm not sure if that is 100 % accurate, but if judas lifts his heel up against jesus wouldn't that bruise jesus, the same way in which the seed of the woman in Genesis will bruise the serpents head, but the serpent bruises his heel.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 11:22:19 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 26, 2010, 11:09:10 PMGood scriptures molly :thumbsup: . To me if Judas lost his throne it deosn't mean he has lost his salvation. They are both seperate in my opinion. If you were Jesus would you give the position of authority to the man that betrayed you?
Don't try strawman arguments on me TT :punish:
Perhaps I should show my right cheek in future with the amount of hitting in this forum :mblush:, my fair feathered friend. And in anycase where is my birthday present? You who forget the birthday of the lords anointed, your punishment shall be tarred and feathered, but if you repent, then a chicken dance might appease my anger. So if you please, kindly waddle your way towards the welcome room and give me a large birthday chicken dance!.
The question isn't if Jesus would give a throne to someone who betrayed Him. (or make him a disciple...)
The question is DID Judas betray Him.
Yes, I can read a little English and I do understand the word betray. But it's not about English but Greek.
Just like hell or grave, forever or age, torture or ED, etc....
I've picked up my first Bible about 2 years ago. If I learned only one thing then it is that, if one really wants to know things a good look at Hebrew (customs) and Greek is needed.
:friendstu:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 10:50:52 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 09:52:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 09:22:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 09:06:51 PM
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"
See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"
Nah..nice try, though.
21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
--Mark 14
Sloppy translation. him ---> Him.
So can we trust he?
It's just the way English works. he references 'that man' and that man references the traitor.
Depends greatly on the translation. Not even that. It's not the translation but the Greek.
And in the Bible caps are used for the divine...
You always seem to like quoting word meanings.
Why don't you quote the meaning of traitor....?
I'll make easy for you.
paradidōmi
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one's) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself
I hope you agree there is zero proof for traitor in that word meaning. It's just one of the meanings. (And I don't rule out a bit biased)
KJVLuk 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
Here we have another word for traitor:
prodotēs
to give away, to betray. A betrayer, traitor
A very nice verse list in the next post....
Stay tuned. :winkgrin:
You have both the words and the context. It makes no sense that it would be better for Jesus if Judas had never been born. Why would the scripture make that statement? It implies that the choices that Jesus made [and I believe it was all his choice because no one could lay a finger on him if he didn't allow it] were not in his best interests. We know differently, even though he suffered greatly at the hands of his murderers,--and it originated from them, not from him-- he did not lose sight of the goal.
Hebrews 12:2
... who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 11:22:19 PM
I've picked up my first Bible about 2 years ago. :friendstu:
Glad you did. :high5:
Quote from: thinktank on August 27, 2010, 01:45:31 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 11:28:54 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 26, 2010, 11:11:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2010, 11:08:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2010, 06:11:20 PMJudas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
He only performed miracles. Mwah, big deal..... :mshock:
KJVMat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Did we not cast out devils by your name and in your name do wonderfull works
depart from me ya workers of iniquity
jesus
It's that verse slightly out of context here TT? I don't believe it was about the disciples.
No, but your argument is that because Judas cast out devils, then that makes him righteous.
I replied with that verse because Molly said Judas never did anything of significance in the ministry.
QuoteBut according to the scriptures he was a thief. So if we take this statment by Jesus that casting out devils, does not automatically means one is righteous, then how can we say Judas is righteous? even after the scriptures calls him a thief?
What about the other 11. All clean saints. What about Paul/Saul? That murder even wrote he still was a big sinner. No Judas was no saint. But were the others?
If you say casting out demons doesn't automaticly mean one is righteous, then be fair and don't say stealing doesn't automaticly make you a traitor/killer.
Quoteand the betrayer of Jesus?.
That's topic of the thread so can't be used as proof. I personally still not sure he was a betrayer.
QuoteOn that not if the word betray is not 100% correct, does it matter?
It matters. It matters a very great deal. If the correct translation is betrayal then end of discussion. Judas betrayed Jesus. (ignoringing the satan entered Judas verse) But if the translation is not correct then that leaves a huge opening for Judas being faithful to Jesus. One of the best disciples instead the worst. BTW if you look at the last supper painting you can see ranks among the apostles.
Sitting close to a king is an honor. A rank in a way. People who know studied ancient Jewish customs and have a deep understanding of the Greek see strong hints the Judas kiss was a kiss that friends use to greet eachother. Not a kiss of death you often see in ganster movies.
QuoteThe idea presented is obviously that Judas went against Jesus, as the scriptures say in the psalms "a familiar friend lifted up his heel against me"
KJVPsa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
That's not about Jesus and Judas. You think Jesus was caught by suprise? No. Jesus know things. He didn't guess them.
So even if Judas was a traitor then Jesus did not distrust him. He just knew.
Anyway did you read the list of verses? I could be wrong but you just seem to repeat church teachings....?
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 06:18:07 AM
You have both the words and the context. It makes no sense that it would be better for Jesus if Judas had never been born.
It makes a very great deal of sense. Quicky before I goto office. Few variations.
1] It was better for Judas that he (Judas) was not be born because traitors get kicked into hell.
2] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas honestly loved Jesus, but he got the worst job in history of man. That's why Judas better wasn't be born.
3] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Jesus would never have been born He never had to suffer. For Jesus it would have been best He never was born.
4] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Judas would never have been born He never had turned over Jesus. So for Jesus it was better Judas was not be born.
There are many translations and many render this passage differently. Doctrinal bias or perhaps the Greek is so complicated the translator couldn't really figure it out either
QuoteWhy would the scripture make that statement? It implies that the choices that Jesus made [and I believe it was all his choice because no one could lay a finger on him if he didn't allow it] were not in his best interests. We know differently, even though he suffered greatly at the hands of his murderers,--and it originated from them, not from him-- he did not lose sight of the goal.[/i]
Agreed. But he prayed this:
(Matthew 26:39) And, going forward a little, he fell upon his face, offering prayer, and saying––My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from me,––Nevertheless, not as, I, will, but as, thou, wilt.
Did Jesus want to abort His mission? No I think. To me this one line is very closely related to 'better not be born'.
For many people the "Judas story" can only be story of a satan like low life traitor.
But there is another possibility.
The death of Jesus was pure sacrifice.
Jesus was tricked by a thief but didn't do anything to escape. That's whyHis sacrifice was so big.
Or.
Jesus ordered Judas to hand him over. Jesus kept full control over His own sacrifice. By sending Judas He signed his own death sentence. Isn't that an even greater end-game for the Shepherd that layed down His life for His sheep.
Salvation/sacrifice under complete control of the Savior. Not depending on a thief.
For me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'.
While I was typing this up WW, you gave an answer to my first question - "what makes this so important".
I'll go ahead and post this as I still think/hope it has some merit.
----------------------------
I've thought a few times, what makes the topic of Judas so important to us? Also, maybe it's something (like so many other things) that some of the details we're just not going to be able to understand right now - or know for sure.
Anyway, as a UR believer, what are some very basic things I can believe assuredly about Judas?
1) He was created by God and chosen by Jesus to fulfill his purpose in life.
2) He was created by God and chosen by Jesus to fulfill God's purpose.
3) He fulfilled his/His purpose.
4) He regretted and suffered for his sins [there could still be corrective discipline he will yet endure, depending on time frames of judgment].
5) He either has been or will be forgiven.
6) He will be restored (whatever in him is "worth" saving), in the regeneration/consummation.
7) He will live for ever, loved and cared for by God; rejoicing, and praising Him for His love and mercy.
God's blessing, James.
Quote from: wwFor me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'
For me, knowing that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him has offered me great comfort. To know that even this horrible experience could happen to the Lord of glory, and that he could rise above it, lets me see that even this can be overcome. There are few things more painful than being betrayed by a friend. Not only that, but those who had welcomed him into the city a week before with praise, singing, and palms would soon be calling for his death.
Humans are a fickle and untrustworthy lot. But, Jesus never took his eyes off God and what he had promised to do for us. He is trust worthy.
Revelation 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. "traitor" [Lk 6:16]
G4273
προδότης
prodotēs
prod-ot'-ace
From G4272 (in the sense of giving forward into another's [the enemy's] hands); a surrender: -
betrayer, traitor.
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 05:01:41 PM
"traitor" [Lk 6:16]
G4273
προδότης
prodotēs
prod-ot'-ace
From G4272 (in the sense of giving forward into another's [the enemy's] hands); a surrender: - betrayer, traitor.
You keep quoting that and ignoring all my other posts. That leads nowhere. Maybe you will convince yourself with it but not me.
You can't just take one verse with a vague word meaning (it has several meanings) and base your opinion on that. But if you read my verse list you will see that "handing over" fits in all verses. "betray" doesn't.
G4273
προδότης
prodotēs
prod-ot'-ace
From G4272 (in the sense of giving forward into another's [the enemy's] hands); a surrender: -betrayer, traitor
See I proved it was not betrayal... :mshock:
Quote from: wwBut if you read my verse list you will see that "handing over" fits in all verses. "betray" doesn't.
If a loved one hands me over to an enemy's hands, that is betrayal--most especially if I am innocent of any wrongdoing.
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 05:01:41 PM
Quote from: wwFor me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'
For me, knowing that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him has offered me great comfort. To know that even this horrible experience could happen to the Lord of glory, and that he could rise above it, lets me see that even this can be overcome. There are few things more painful than being betrayed by a friend. Not only that, but those who had welcomed him into the city a week before with praise, singing, and palms would soon be calling for his death.
Humans are a fickle and untrustworthy lot. But, Jesus never took his eyes off God and what he had promised to do for us. He is trust worthy.
And Jesus could only have done that when he was betrayed by a priest. A priest He personally recruited.
IF Jesus was betrayed He arranged it Himself. So there is absolutely nothing for Him to rise above.
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 05:28:03 PM
Quote from: wwBut if you read my verse list you will see that "handing over" fits in all verses. "betray" doesn't.
If a loved one hands me over to an enemy's hands, that is betrayal--most especially if I am innocent of any wrongdoing.
Again ignoring what I said..... :sigh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2010, 05:34:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 05:01:41 PM
Quote from: wwFor me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'
For me, knowing that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him has offered me great comfort. To know that even this horrible experience could happen to the Lord of glory, and that he could rise above it, lets me see that even this can be overcome. There are few things more painful than being betrayed by a friend. Not only that, but those who had welcomed him into the city a week before with praise, singing, and palms would soon be calling for his death.
Humans are a fickle and untrustworthy lot. But, Jesus never took his eyes off God and what he had promised to do for us. He is trust worthy.
And Jesus could only have done that when he was betrayed by a priest. A priest He personally recruited.
IF Jesus was betrayed He arranged it Himself. So there is absolutely nothing for Him to rise above.
So if my husband cheats on me and deceives me, it's my fault for picking him as the person to marry? He's the victim [of his flawed personality], not me? Betrayal is a real concept which exists in the English language and it happens all day long. It's all about character, and Judas had none.
"betrayal". To give aid or information to an enemy of; commit treason against: betray one's country.
b. To deliver into the hands of an enemy in violation of a trust or allegiance: betrayed Christ to the Romans.
2. To be false or disloyal to: betrayed their cause; betray one's better nature.
3. To divulge in a breach of confidence: betray a secret.
4. To make known unintentionally: Her hollow laugh betrayed her contempt for the idea.
5. To reveal against one's desire or will.
6. To lead astray; deceive. See Synonyms at deceive.
willieH: Hi Molly... :cloud9:
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 06:44:36 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2010, 05:34:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 05:01:41 PM
Quote from: wwFor me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'
For me, knowing that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him has offered me great comfort. To know that even this horrible experience could happen to the Lord of glory, and that he could rise above it, lets me see that even this can be overcome. There are few things more painful than being betrayed by a friend. Not only that, but those who had welcomed him into the city a week before with praise, singing, and palms would soon be calling for his death.
Humans are a fickle and untrustworthy lot. But, Jesus never took his eyes off God and what he had promised to do for us. He is trust worthy.
And Jesus could only have done that when he was betrayed by a priest. A priest He personally recruited.
IF Jesus was betrayed He arranged it Himself. So there is absolutely nothing for Him to rise above.
So if my husband cheats on me and deceives me, it's my fault for picking him as the person to marry? He's the victim [of his flawed personality], not me? Betrayal is a real concept which exists in the English language and it happens all day long. It's all about character, and Judas had none.
:omg: ...NONE? :mshock:
Where is the GRACE within this statement, Molly? Who might any of US
think we are, to be worthy to CAST such "STONES" at Judas?
Does not matter what you or I "
think"... without the sorrowful act of JUDAS... neither of us "
thinkers" would have SALVATION. :dontknow:
CHRIST Himself, particularly
CHOSE Judas... are you saying that
CHRIST chose poorly? Or that He was short on the ability to CHOOSE men who were WORTHY of the office of DISCIPLES? :mshock:
CHRIST indeed KNEW what He was doing when HE picked JUDAS... (unlike the real possibility that YOU or I, might mischoose a SPOUSAL candidate) He knew beforehand that the BETRAYAL would occur, and WHO would be the one to do it, but CHOSE him anyway!
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 06:44:36 PM"betrayal"
. To give aid or information to an enemy of; commit treason against: betray one's country.
b. To deliver into the hands of an enemy in violation of a trust or allegiance: betrayed Christ to the Romans.
2. To be false or disloyal to: betrayed their cause; betray one's better nature.
3. To divulge in a breach of confidence: betray a secret.
4. To make known unintentionally: Her hollow laugh betrayed her contempt for the idea.
5. To reveal against one's desire or will.
6. To lead astray; deceive. See Synonyms at deceive.
The word concerning Judas, and translated "BETRAYAL" [#G3860 PARADIDOMI] more means to "give over" or to "yield up"...
IMO ---
Your husband cheating on you... is quite a different "brand" of
betrayal. That which includes an act of SIN, within its manifestation... I am not entirely certain that what JUDAS did was actually, SIN...
Also, ... I do not think that the character of JUDAS was so berift as you describe above. Otherwise he would have had "ZERO REMORSE"... however, this was not the case, now was it? :Chinscratch:
Death of
innocence was necessary to deliver the
GUILTY... and it was the
GUILTY that delivered Him up, to be put to death, ...it -- is/was/will be -- the
GUILTY that receive the benefit of that death, and
NONE of the
GUILTY has the right to judge the
GUILT of another of ..."the
GUILTY"... :dontknow: --
John 8:7JESUS was an elusive person, and had escaped many attempts made by the JEWS to apprehend Him successfully, so they NEEDED the assistance that one such as Judas could provide.
In the end, all that JUDAS "did" was --- provide the location of
CHRIST, and indentify Him... I am not totally convinced that it was a
SIN to do these things. I am also not convinced that he had the knowledge that
JESUS would actually be put to death, due to his "betrayal"...
When all is said & done, ...what JUDAS did was
FULFILL what was WRITTEN in the
WORD of Him --
Psalm 41:9 -- He really had no "choice" to avoid this predetermined destiny, which was NOTED by the SCRIPTURES which COULD
NOT BE BROKEN --
John 10:34 -- so how could Judas have "done" otherwise?
JESUS spoke of Judas and the entirety of the... "
GUILTY" ...when He said:
"Father forgive them, for they KNOW NOT what THEY DO"JESUS forgave Judas... when will men FINALLY follow
JESUS, ...by doing the same? :dunno:
QuoteYou keep quoting that and ignoring all my other posts. That leads nowhere. Maybe you will convince yourself with it but not me.
This is a very common tactic used when one wants to avoid, or skirt around an issue
*************************
BTW, Great post, WillieH :thumbsup:
Quote from: willieHCHRIST indeed KNEW what He was doing when HE picked JUDAS... (unlike the real possibility that YOU or I, might mischoose a SPOUSAL candidate) He knew beforehand that the BETRAYAL would occur, and WHO would be the one to do it, but CHOSE him anyway!
Betrayers are a dime a dozen. Christ could have chosen any number of people who would have--sadly--done the same thing for 30 pieces of silver.
I'm not required to have sympathy for Judas, although I will admit to a certain amount of empathy for him. Judas knew that what he had done was a sin. That's why he killed himself. It was his own indictment of himself that killed him. The betrayal of the innocent is always a sin.
That's not any foundation that I would ever care to stand on.
3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
--Mat 27
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 11:40:10 PM
Betrayers are a dime a dozen. Christ could have chosen any number of people who would have--sadly--done the same thing for 30 pieces of silver.
But he didn't..... he specifically chose Judas to fulfill scripture.....
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Dont you think its more of a metaphor
of those whom sup with the Lord are a betrayer by nature ?
I am convinced its NOT a good thing !
and there are many Judas in the religeous systems
Jesus says Himself right here Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
pretty plain speech if you ask me ...
not hard to grasp , simple really
and this is why we must be born again , the old nature/ man /seed is very
greedy and beastly ,evil even ..
I dont think Jesus was shocked when it happened at all , it was expected , Jesus knows peoples hearts , a great discerner of hearts
I do believe it was pity and shame he felt for Judas all Judas's
who will suffer the same fate as the example made in the WORD .
9So I said, "I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die. What is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed. And let those who are left devour the flesh of one another." 10And I took my staff Favor, and I broke it, annulling the covenant that I had made with all the peoples. 11So it was annulled on that day, and the sheep traders, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD. 12Then I said to them, "If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them." And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. 13Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"— the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD, to the potter. 14Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
--Zech 11
6And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
7And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
8Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
--Mat 27
:cloud9: Lot of interesting replies in this, as I play catch up :thumbsup:
20Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.
22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: 'They hated me without a cause.'
--John 15
The betrayal of Jesus is what causes the shepherd in Zech 11 to break his two staffs--the staff of the covenant between God and his people [the old covenant) and the staff of the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Jesus was able to say of the multitudes who were jeering and taunting him on the cross, forgive them because they don't know what they are doing, But, he does not say this of the priests and the Jews who betrayed him, including Judas. They are guilty of the sin of knowing him [and therefore, the Father], and hating him [and therefore, the Father] without cause.
So you can see how much is at stake in this betrayal. They have put the 'lordly price' of thirty pieces of silver on his head--he says that is his value to them--such a sad statement--and this causes his blood to be removed from their house and transferred to the field of the stranger. They have his blood on their hands, but the stranger will be covered [anointed] with it in the potter's field.
2And when they ask you, 'Where shall we go?' you shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD:
"'Those who are for pestilence, to pestilence,
and those who are for the sword, to the sword;
those who are for famine, to famine,
and those who are for captivity, to captivity.'
--Jer 15
we also know in the Prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 17 that son of perdition
is Judas
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
we know by scriptures Judas had no joy of Jesus in himself ...
and perdition means Strong's G684 - apōleia 1) destroying, utter destruction
a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction
a) of money
b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
Jhn 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
willieH: Hi Molly... :cloud9:
Quote from: willieHCHRIST indeed KNEW what He was doing when HE picked JUDAS... (unlike the real possibility that YOU or I, might mischoose a SPOUSAL candidate) He knew beforehand that the BETRAYAL would occur, and WHO would be the one to do it, but CHOSE him anyway!
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 11:40:10 PMBetrayers are a dime a dozen.
This is correct... :nod:
The fact remains that as sinners, You and I compose :2c: of that "dime", Molly... :sigh: Joining Judas as "
betrayers" of the Savior... :crywipe:
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 11:40:10 PMChrist could have chosen any number of people who would have--sadly--done the same thing for 30 pieces of silver.
"What if's and "coulda's" are NOT what happened! :dontknow:
CHRIST ...CHOSE...
Judas... specifically to FULFILL what was WRITTEN... As far as "sadly"... Personally, I find much rejoice in the fact that
CHRIST CHOSE Judas, for He
KNEW that in doing so, that YOU and I and everyone else ["happily"] would be SAVED! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 11:40:10 PMI'm not required to have sympathy for Judas, although I will admit to a certain amount of empathy for him. Judas knew that what he had done was a sin.
That's why he killed himself. It was his own indictment of himself that killed him. The betrayal of the innocent is always a sin.
FIRST --- As I already stated, I am not sure that what Judas "did" was a
SIN... It was "sin" unto him, as Scripture notes --
James 4:17 But if you wouldn't mind, could you name to me which "LAW" Judas actually "transgressed" in giving the location and identity of
JESUS to those who put Him to death? :Chinscratch: (for SIN is = the TRANSGRESSION of the LAW --
1 John 3:4 -- Rom 3:20)
SECOND --- there are some that question (and I tend to agree with them) as to whether JUDAS "killed himself" or not...
Scripture states that his "bowels" gushed out... The very same word "bowels" [#G4698 - SPLAGCHNON -- having to do with sympathy/pity/tender mercy] appears in the following verses:
Phil 1:8 & 2:1 -- Col 3:12 -- Philemon 20 -- 1 John 3:17 -- all having to do with COMPASSION, sympathy, mercy, etc.
The verse which notes that JUDAS "hanged himself" is potentially an inaccurate translation... The word translated "hanged" (in
Matt 27:5 as you have quoted below), means "choked"... which is what occurs within the experience of extreme anguish in a human being... i.e. "choked up"...
IMO, a better recognition of the entire report, more describes that He died of the extreme TRAUMA of anguish, rather than "killed himself"... However, since the majority of the "guilty" need a "scapegoat" they shall name JUDAS as that scapegoat, in an effort to find a
SELF justification above him, as a GREATER "betrayer" of
CHRIST, then them
SELVES.
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 11:40:10 PMThat's not any foundation that I would ever care to stand on.
JUDAS was a sinner in need of his Savior, as well as are you and I, ...so we all "stand" on the "same (betrayal) foundation", whether
you care to admit to it or not.
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 11:40:10 PM3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself [?]
--Mat 27
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 06:44:36 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2010, 05:34:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 05:01:41 PM
Quote from: wwFor me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'
For me, knowing that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him has offered me great comfort. To know that even this horrible experience could happen to the Lord of glory, and that he could rise above it, lets me see that even this can be overcome. There are few things more painful than being betrayed by a friend. Not only that, but those who had welcomed him into the city a week before with praise, singing, and palms would soon be calling for his death.
Humans are a fickle and untrustworthy lot. But, Jesus never took his eyes off God and what he had promised to do for us. He is trust worthy.
And Jesus could only have done that when he was betrayed by a priest. A priest He personally recruited.
IF Jesus was betrayed He arranged it Himself. So there is absolutely nothing for Him to rise above.
So if my husband cheats on me and deceives me, it's my fault for picking him as the person to marry? He's the victim [of his flawed personality], not me? Betrayal is a real concept which exists in the English language and it happens all day long. It's all about character, and Judas had none.
You really really disappoint me Molly. I always assumed you were a 'real digger' but you don't even pick up the shovel.
Let me make you really easy for you. Give me some proof Jesus was betrayed. And, nope, a word strongs with 10 different meanings won't do.
(btw noticed many don't point to betrayal?)
I don't need example of what the word betrayal means. I know very well what it means.
willieH: Hi Molly... :cloud9:
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2010, 01:46:08 PM
The betrayal of Jesus is what causes the shepherd in Zech 11 to break his two staffs--the staff of the covenant between God and his people [the old covenant) and the staff of the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Jesus was able to say of the multitudes who were jeering and taunting him on the cross, forgive them because they don't know what they are doing, But, he does not say this of the priests and the Jews who betrayed him, including Judas. They are guilty of the sin of knowing him [and therefore, the Father], and hating him [and therefore, the Father] without cause.
This is hardly true...
CHRIST did NOT note who "
THEM" was in particular... For He was focused upon GOD and the
WORLD in this statement, for it was the
WORLD which He was SENT to SAVE... not just those who were "taunting Him"...
The JEWS did not KNOW Him for BLINDNESS was concluded upon them
BY YHVH --
Rom 11:25Nor does the "forgive
them statement" of
CHRIST note DISinclusion of JUDAS either... this is YOUR own personal speculation, with no notation to support it.
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2010, 01:46:08 PMSo you can see how much is at stake in this betrayal. They have put the 'lordly price' of thirty pieces of silver on his head--he says that is his value to them--such a sad statement--and this causes his blood to be removed from their house and transferred to the field of the stranger. They have his blood on their hands, but the stranger will be covered [anointed] with it in the potter's field.
All this is, is your own concoction... you have no real basis upon which to found this.
The BLOOD of the cross of
CHRIST, is upon ALL HANDS --
Col 1:20YOUR sin as well as MINE, was/is every bit as pertinent and as INVOLVED as was THEIRS... so the stones you attempt to cast, are cast of the hand of VANITY. :sigh:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 11:40:10 PMI'm not required to have sympathy for Judas
I can't speak for willieH but personally I never asked for that. Neither did I claim Judas was or was not a betrayer. I just keep showing 2 sides of the coin.
I haven't seen much proof for either side. Just opinions. Isn't man's thought just vanity? That's why your or mine opinion on Judas doesn't count. It's about the words in the Bible. (Words=Greek) And for me that's :dontknow:
But since I posted that long list of verses a few posts ago, I edged more towards "Judas disd as ordered by Jesus."
Rosey! Back from the garden? :winkgrin:
Quote from: rosered on August 28, 2010, 04:23:19 AM
Jesus says Himself right here Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
pretty plain speech if you ask me ...
For you. For me certainly not. Read post #250. Read the verse list. The word translated as betrayed very often can't mean betrayed. Jesus handed or betrayed the gospel to us?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2010, 11:06:45 PM
Rosey! Back from the garden? :winkgrin:Quote from: rosered on August 28, 2010, 04:23:19 AM
Jesus says Himself right here Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
pretty plain speech if you ask me ...
For you. For me certainly not. Read post #250. Read the verse list. The word translated as betrayed very often can't mean betrayed. Jesus handed or betrayed the gospel to us?
yeppers back from the weed patch now lol ... LOL.. okey dokey than !! I just believe Jesus Words , that simple to me ,it is by faith I trust Jesus Words here ...
I cannot convince you it will take the Holy Spirit to do that
for you , faith is the substance of things hoped for , you cannot see them literally so , its looks crazy to the natural mind thats why we got to have a new mind like Christ to even believe what the Word/Spirit is teaching us :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2010, 08:00:20 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 06:18:07 AM
You have both the words and the context. It makes no sense that it would be better for Jesus if Judas had never been born.
It makes a very great deal of sense. Quicky before I goto office. Few variations.
1] It was better for Judas that he (Judas) was not be born because traitors get kicked into hell.
2] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas honestly loved Jesus, but he got the worst job in history of man. That's why Judas better wasn't be born.
3] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Jesus would never have been born He never had to suffer. For Jesus it would have been best He never was born.
4] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Judas would never have been born He never had turned over Jesus. So for Jesus it was better Judas was not be born.
There are many translations and many render this passage differently. Doctrinal bias or perhaps the Greek is so complicated the translator couldn't really figure it out either
QuoteWhy would the scripture make that statement? It implies that the choices that Jesus made [and I believe it was all his choice because no one could lay a finger on him if he didn't allow it] were not in his best interests. We know differently, even though he suffered greatly at the hands of his murderers,--and it originated from them, not from him-- he did not lose sight of the goal.[/i]
Agreed. But he prayed this:
(Matthew 26:39) And, going forward a little, he fell upon his face, offering prayer, and saying––My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from me,––Nevertheless, not as, I, will, but as, thou, wilt.
Did Jesus want to abort His mission? No I think. To me this one line is very closely related to 'better not be born'.
I got to read 250 post by WW .. and all I could say as Jesus hung on the Cross is Father forgive them for they KNOW NOT what they do !! forgiving Judas went into shame and after he realized what he done , this no doubt happened to him as it is written confessed he had sinned and betrayed innocent blood Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that]. thew down the 30 pieces of silver and went and hung himself
cursed is a man who hangs on a tree ..
of the 4 choices you give WW i cannot pick one , there is no doubt more choices than those 4
like Jesus knew what would happen all along but Judas sure didnot know!!
does any of us know our own hearts in times when we fail the Lord ? and when the Holy Spirit teaches us what error we are in we repent and do over or try to resolve the sin ? as we saw Judas try to do here in this verse above ? :icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on August 31, 2010, 12:26:08 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2010, 11:06:45 PM
Rosey! Back from the garden? :winkgrin:Quote from: rosered on August 28, 2010, 04:23:19 AM
Jesus says Himself right here Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
pretty plain speech if you ask me ...
For you. For me certainly not. Read post #250. Read the verse list. The word translated as betrayed very often can't mean betrayed. Jesus handed or betrayed the gospel to us?
yeppers back from the weed patch now lol ... LOL.. okey dokey than !! I just believe Jesus Words
The question is not if the words of Jesus can be trusted. The question is "
what did Jesus say?"
If you just read one English translation it may be "pretty plain speech".
But if compare several English translations you start to see differences (also take a close look at the caps)
Once you spotted the differences the question is: Which translation rendered the original Greek words correctly....?
Quote from: rosered on August 31, 2010, 12:44:45 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2010, 08:00:20 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2010, 06:18:07 AM
You have both the words and the context. It makes no sense that it would be better for Jesus if Judas had never been born.
It makes a very great deal of sense. Quicky before I goto office. Few variations.
1] It was better for Judas that he (Judas) was not be born because traitors get kicked into hell.
2] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas honestly loved Jesus, but he got the worst job in history of man. That's why Judas better wasn't be born.
3] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Jesus would never have been born He never had to suffer. For Jesus it would have been best He never was born.
4] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Judas would never have been born He never had turned over Jesus. So for Jesus it was better Judas was not be born.
There are many translations and many render this passage differently. Doctrinal bias or perhaps the Greek is so complicated the translator couldn't really figure it out either
QuoteWhy would the scripture make that statement? It implies that the choices that Jesus made [and I believe it was all his choice because no one could lay a finger on him if he didn't allow it] were not in his best interests. We know differently, even though he suffered greatly at the hands of his murderers,--and it originated from them, not from him-- he did not lose sight of the goal.[/i]
Agreed. But he prayed this:
(Matthew 26:39) And, going forward a little, he fell upon his face, offering prayer, and saying––My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from me,––Nevertheless, not as, I, will, but as, thou, wilt.
Did Jesus want to abort His mission? No I think. To me this one line is very closely related to 'better not be born'.
I got to read 250 post by WW .. and all I could say as Jesus hung on the Cross is Father forgive them for they KNOW NOT what they do !!
I'm not saying Judas was the best saint ever. He sure had lots of flaws
Quoteforgiving Judas went into shame and after he realized what he done
Is there a verse that states that? Very little is written on it. And what is written shows Judas felt bad about it. It doesn't say why? Could indeed be shame. But also other things.
, this no doubt happened to him as it is written confessed he had sinned and betrayed innocent blood Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that]. thew down the 30 pieces of silver and went and hung himself
cursed is a man who hangs on a tree ..
Quoteof the 4 choices you give WW i cannot pick one , there is no doubt more choices than those 4 like
I can accept that. But doesn't that prove my point? The verse can be read in to many ways to be useful... (in English)
QuoteJesus knew what would happen all along but Judas sure didnot know!!
I'm 100% sure Judas knew.
I think we can agree all 12 knew the priests didn't like Jesus. They tried to trick Him so they could say he commited blaspheme.
The laws were clear about that. Stoning to death. Ever Jew knew that. Especially Judas who was a Jewish priest.
So I can't believe Judas would think they just wanted a chat with Jesus and that's it.
QuoteJesus knew what would happen all along but Judas sure didnot know!!
I'm 100% sure Judas knew.
I think we can agree all 12 knew the priests didn't like Jesus. They tried to trick Him so they could say he commited blaspheme.
The laws were clear about that. Stoning to death. Ever Jew knew that. Especially Judas who was a Jewish priest.
So I can't believe Judas would think they just wanted a chat with Jesus and that's it.
Fair enough , WW , Did Judas know that after devil put in his heart he would sin and betray Christ ? Mat 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said,
Master, is it I? He said unto him,
Thou hast said. Jhn 13:2 And supper being ended,
the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son],
to betray him;
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
Jhn 13:11
For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. I feel this is all cut and dry stuff WW .. reading into that about Jesus telling Judas to betray the Lord is not in scripture anywhere!
some notion not proven what so ever and I find that ridiculous LOL...
what you do , do it quickly ? is the only slight reference to that
yep Jesus knew all along , no argument from me , but the Lord told Judas to do it ?! NO WAY!!!
Hi dear rosie. :bigGrin: Complicated topic for sure, with some things probably not directly specifically answered (every "little" detail) in the Word.
I've talked with WW about this before, and I believe one thing to consider is that God creates vessels of honor and dishonor - both to fulfill His purpose - just as He created pharoah for a purpose, then hardened his heart. If Judas hadn't fulfilled his purpose, how would the prophecy have been fulfilled? IMO, that's one reason UR is so reassuring, because The Creator "fixes" everything in the end. :2c: (All turned to disobedience, have mercy on all) Halleluja!
God bless ya!
P.S. But I can see how different people can take different views of this. Like so many other things, it's not all clearly in sight. :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on August 31, 2010, 02:51:29 AM
Hi dear rosie. :bigGrin: Complicated topic for sure, with some things probably not directly specifically answered (every "little" detail) in the Word.
I've talked with WW about this before, and I believe one thing to consider is that God creates vessels of honor and dishonor - both to fulfill His purpose - just as He created pharoah for a purpose, then hardened his heart. If Judas hadn't fulfilled his purpose, how would the prophecy have been fulfilled? IMO, that's one reason UR is so reassuring, because "fixes" everything in the end. :2c: (All turned to disobedience, have mercy on all) Halleluja!
God bless ya!
Sounds good Jabcat!! Judas as a type and more of a metaphor
for me these days ..
I still believe they are examples though for our consideration :winkgrin:
1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
I too feel Gods mercy endures forever
:icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on August 31, 2010, 02:59:11 AM
Judas as a type and more of a metaphor for me these days ..
I still believe they are examples though for our consideration :winkgrin:
Bless you. When you feel inspired, please consider sharing more about that sometime, how that speaks to you, etc. :HeartThrob:
I think it is important not to give Judas a pass on what he did--which I think can justifiably be called a betrayal of the innocent [our Lord], and the taking of innocent blood. From the time of Cain and Abel, betraying innocent blood does not sit well with God, and we see that Cain was cut off from the land, from his family, and from God himself. Likewise, Judas was a co-conspirator in the murder of Christ. It doesn't matter what he thought the priests were going to do to Jesus. The fact that he participated with the plotters in turning over Jesus to them makes him an accessory to murder. He, of course, realized that himself, and repented--but it was too late to change anything.
So we look at the standard set for us by Christ and by Judas and make a choice between the two. Making excuses does not change the act or the character of the man who made the wrong choice.
In fact, the priests never repented and dismissed the concerns of Judas--what is that to us? They broke every law in the book to condemn an innocent man to death. It would be disgusting if it happened at our local courthouse, not to mention an event of this magnitude.
Keep very far from a false matter and (be very careful) not to condemn to death the innocent and the righteous, for I will not justify and acquit the wicked (Ex. 23:7).
Lest innocent blood be shed in your land, which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, and so blood guilt be upon you (Deut. 19:10).
Cursed is he who slays his neighbor secretly. All the people shall say, Amen (Deut. 27:24).
Ps. 94:21, There are those who band together to condemn the innocent to death, but the Lord will turn their own iniquity back upon them.
Six things the Lord hates: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that manufactures wicked thoughts and plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who breaths out lies (even under oath), and he who sows discord among the brethren (Pro. 6:17-19).
Their feet run to evil, and they make hast to shed innocent blood; their thoughts are thoughts are of iniquity; desolation and destruction are in their paths and highways. The way of peace they know not, and there is no justice or right in their goings; they have made them crooked paths; whoever goes in them knows not peace (Isa. 59:7-8).
QuoteI think it is important not to give Judas a pass on what he did--which I think can justifiably be called a betrayal of the innocent [our Lord], and the taking of innocent blood.
Hi Molly
I would have to say forgivness is the divine nature Christ took on at the Cross
Forgive them Father for they know not what they do ..
and love your enemies
these things were taught of the Lord , He is the greatest example of the holy nature and those innocent / saints / holy things / new creatures in Christ are a part of Him .
the Whole Book is written of Him !
This sacrifice the Lord Jesus Christ / blood of the Lamb was enough to be accepted by the Father
for all sin for all time , from the foundation of the world except blaspheming the Holy Spirit
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
this life is but a vapour we have much to look forward to
the place is already prepared and waiting for us , with Joy unspeakable and full of glory in the Lord God ...
I so believe the soul part that makes our natures with a flesh body form , this soul is changed by Jesus Christ blood shed in judgment and His mercy on us , its is the works that are judged and seperated , and burned perdition means loss and destruction , those works will be done away with
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
the works will cause shame or joy in the Lord at this point
I do believe Paul was speaking of judgment here If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. :icon_flower:
Quote from: roseredHi Molly
I would have to say forgivness is the divine nature Christ took on at the Cross
Forgive them Father for they know not what they do ..
and love your enemies
Yes. I'm not talking about how God deals with what Judas did, but how we view it in learning to discern good from evil.
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2010, 06:50:56 PM
Quote from: roseredHi Molly
I would have to say forgivness is the divine nature Christ took on at the Cross
Forgive them Father for they know not what they do ..
and love your enemies
Yes. I'm not talking about how God deals with what Judas did, but how we view it in learning to discern good from evil.
:thumbsup:
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food;
the
tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the
tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Jer 10:5 They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good.
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:His body shall not remain all night upon the tree,
but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;)
that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
some things about the good and evil in the trees of death and life ....
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2010, 04:54:45 AM
I think it is important not to give Judas a pass on what he did--which I think can justifiably be called a betrayal of the innocent [our Lord], and the taking of innocent blood.
What of
YOUR "DOINGS", Molly? Are they not
BETRAYAL of "Innocent blood"? And was not, the
TAKING of "Innocent blood" in part manifest, due to
your "doings"? :dunno:
So is it ...
important not to "give Molly a pass" on what SHE DID? :dontknow:
Those which truly desire to FOLLOW
CHRIST, will
DO as
HE DID...
John 8:10-11 ---
when JESUS had lifted up Himself, and saw NONE but the woman, He said unto her: woman, WHERE are those thine ACCUSERS? hath NO MAN CONDEMNED thee? ...she said, NO MAN, Lord... and JESUS said unto her: Neither DO I CONDEMN THEE, go and sin no more.[1] --
MEN (who had
NOT the RIGHT) sought to CAST the STONES of CONDEMNATION at the "sinner"...
[2] --
CHRIST (who had the RIGHT), sought
NOT the CASTING of the STONES of CONDEMNATION at the "sinner"...
Which example (#1 or #2) is to be followed? :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
We will always be ineffective as Christians if we never learn the difference between good and evil, because the difference is righteousness.
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Quote from: rosered on August 31, 2010, 02:09:21 AMI feel this is all cut and dry stuff WW .. reading into that about Jesus telling Judas to betray the Lord is not in scripture anywhere!
some notion not proven what so ever and I find that ridiculous LOL...
Your view is equally ridiculous Rosey. Personally I think even more ridiculous because you don't even attempt to base your view on something that's written (in Greek). :sigh:
Last post for me in this thread until something useful is posted. Nothing to gain for me if people don't even want to look below the surface and seem to be very scared to find something that may conflict their views.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 01, 2010, 12:50:39 PM
Quote from: rosered on August 31, 2010, 02:09:21 AMI feel this is all cut and dry stuff WW .. reading into that about Jesus telling Judas to betray the Lord is not in scripture anywhere!
some notion not proven what so ever and I find that ridiculous LOL...
Your view is equally ridiculous Rosey. Personally I think even more ridiculous because you don't even attempt to base your view on something that's written (in Greek). :sigh:
Last post for me in this thread until something useful is posted. Nothing to gain for me if people don't even want to look below the surface and seem to be very scared to find something that may conflict their views.
Ok Fair enough Lol..
I just do Not ever seeing the Lord to tell Judas to do this betrayal thing
I saw where the devil entered Judas heart Tony , during supper
That is why I have come to my conclusions that and what Judas says himself , I have sinned and shed innocent blood and how he threw down the 30 pieces of silver and went off and hung himself , Judas knew the customs/law too ya know .. I am certain he was ashamed of his "works " doings
good luck finding buyers for that news ... lol I cannot buy it ..
looking for proof
Luke 6:16
And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
"traitor"
G4273
προδότης
prodotēs
prod-ot'-ace
From G4272 (in the sense of giving forward into another's [the enemy's] hands); a surrender: - betrayer, traitor.
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
--2 Timothy 3
"traitors"
G4273
προδότης
prodotēs
prod-ot'-ace
From G4272 (in the sense of giving forward into another's [the enemy's] hands); a surrender: - betrayer, traitor.
Are we really misreading this word, 'traitor,' 'betrayer' as it it translated in these two verses?
Let's say for a moment, that you are right, ww. What would be the implications? That Jesus used Judas, in the foulest form of trickery on the rest of us, to turn him in, by ordering him to do it, knowing full well that Judas would die of a broken heart, be reviled for thousands of years, his character destroyed beyond rehabilitation? Did Jesus use any of his disciples in this way? Or any person at all? This would make Judas the innocent lamb more than Jesus.
Certainly Jesus knew the timing, he knew what would happen, he knew what he would suffer, but, knowing all that, why would he use Judas so despitefully? And, then turn around and add insult to injury by calling Judas the lost son of perdition? Why not just turn himself in?
This impugns the character of Jesus in a way that is unacceptable and contradicts everything we know about the character of Jesus. This would make Jesus the betrayer of one of his own. Does that really make sense to you?
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
[son of] "perdition"
G684
ἀπώλεια
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
willieH: Hi Molly... :happygrin:
Quote from: Molly on September 01, 2010, 12:09:35 AM
We will always be ineffective as Christians if we never learn the difference between good and evil, because the difference is righteousness.
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Our effectiveness (or non-effectiveness as might be
determined by ourselves, or others), as "christians" is not measured by men, regardless of the continuing vain attempts to do so.
What we "ARE" is already been DECLARED... and shall manifest in time, according to that DECLARATION --
Isaiah 46:10 -- without regard to any acknowledgement we might or might not give it.
It is only measured by the one who GIVES life, to manifest His WILL... which is the REVELATION of the SINGLE KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which knowledge is ETERNAL... without beginning or end.
As "christians" we are to be about exalting the
GOSPEL of PEACE before the WORLD, not ourselves over the other (JUDAS in this case)...
Isaiah 45:7 --- As I have already noted... the creation of LIGHT and of DARKNESS is in PRESENT tense... ongoing, by the HAND of the one which CREATES --
ALL THINGS.
Those who are CHOSEN to HEAR the
WORD shall HEAR It, irregardless of any claims to the contrary, as made by those who note themselves as "representatives" of the
WORD.
The bulk of the JEWS which lived in
CHRIST's day, though they had possession of the
WORD, ...listened to
It NOT, when
It appeared and was made KNOWN, before them.
The REVELATION of the
WORD (those who HEAR) is the (ongoing) formation of LIGHT amidst, and shining in the DARKNESS within the Creation...
Those who are NOT CHOSEN to HEAR shall remain in DARKNESS, ...which is the (ongoing) formation of DARKNESS within the Creation.
Neither of these has to do with "effectiveness" in us. It has to do with the WORKING of
YHVH in HIS CREATION, according to HIS WILL --
Eph 1:11We are NOT to be about measuring ANY (as good or evil)... including ourselves. To "discern" is to comprehend, and thereby ahere to or avoid... and to recommend either to another, accordingly...
We are to be teaching the
GOSPEL of PEACE which contains the standards of HOLINESS as applied to LIFE ...unto the WORLD. Not to be measuring the WORLD, as compared to ...ourselves.
ALL are sinners... dirt is still DIRT, even though it is HONORABLY deemed as precious by the Creator.
...willieH :cloud9:
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."to discern"G1253
διάκρισις
diakrisis
dee-ak'-ree-sis
From G1252;
judicial estimation: - discern (-ing), disputation.
So we are to learn to make judgments about good and evil. But, first we have to learn to tell the difference.
"discern" to detect with the eyes <discerned a figure approaching through the fog>
b : to detect with senses other than vision <discerned a strange odor>
2
: to recognize or identify as separate and distinct : discriminate <discern right from wrong>
3
: to come to know or recognize mentally <unable to discern his motives>
intransitive verb
: to see or understand the difference
To come to know and recognize--good and evil. To identify, recognize, and understand the difference. And, to make a judgment based on this--diakrisis--from the word, diakrino--
G1252
διακρίνω
diakrinōdee-ak-ree'-no
From G1223 and G2919;
to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively
to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?WE SHALL
"judge" [ANGELS]
G2919
κρίνω
krinōkree'-no
Properly
to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.
QuoteNot to be measuring the WORLD, as compared to ...ourselves.
We measure compared to Christ.
Quote from: Molly on September 01, 2010, 09:59:13 PM
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
"to discern"
G1253
διάκρισις
diakrisis
dee-ak'-ree-sis
From G1252; judicial estimation: - discern (-ing), disputation.
So we are to learn to make judgments about good and evil. But, first we have to learn to tell the difference.
"discern"
to detect with the eyes <discerned a figure approaching through the fog>
b : to detect with senses other than vision <discerned a strange odor>
2
: to recognize or identify as separate and distinct : discriminate <discern right from wrong>
3
: to come to know or recognize mentally <unable to discern his motives>
intransitive verb
: to see or understand the difference
To come to know and recognize--good and evil. To identify, recognize, and understand the difference. And, to make a judgment based on this--diakrisis--from the word, diakrino--
G1252
διακρίνω
diakrinō
dee-ak-ree'-no
From G1223 and G2919; to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
WE SHALL
"judge" [ANGELS]
G2919
κρίνω
krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.
The "angels" to be judged are not of the "Heavenly sort" or the (False) "fallen sort"... ANGEL means MESSENGER... And in the end it is doings (as done BY
CHRIST, IN US) concerning RIGHTEOUSNESS that stand as "judgment" of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...
ALL JUDGMENT is committed to the SON --
John 5:22 -- ALL means, ...well, ...
ALL! ...Men shall NOT judge other men... nor "angelic beings"...
Quote from: willieHNot to be measuring the WORLD, as compared to ...ourselves.
Quote from: MollyWe measure compared to Christ.
We are instructed BY HIM to abstain from JUDGMENT --
Matt 7:1-2 -- You are welcome to IGNORE this instruction, and make all the "judgments" you desire...
As for me, ...I shall abstain from it completely, for of myself... being a "sinner", ...I am
unworthy to judge
ANY other "sinner" --
1 John 1:8 ...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on September 02, 2010, 06:29:50 AM
We are instructed BY HIM to abstain from JUDGMENT -- Matt 7:1-2 -- You are welcome to IGNORE this instruction, and make all the "judgments" you desire...
As for me, ...I shall abstain from it completely, for of myself... being a "sinner", ...I am unworthy to judge ANY other "sinner" -- 1 John 1:8
The self righteous LOVE to abstain from clear instructions....they deem it as their RIGHT to be judge, jury and executioner, they just want that hammer to drop and are LIVID that they themselves cannot do it
One more time--
Krino in the future
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
2 Don't you know that God's people will judge the world? And if you are going to judge the world, aren't you able to judge small cases? 3 Don't you know that we will judge angels? Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more!
--1 Cor 6
God's people will judge [krino] the world. We will judge [krino] angels. Then we should be able to judge [kriterion] the things of this life even more.
Diakrino now--
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
To which end Paul gives the brethren permission to judge--diakrino-- among themselves.
Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge [diakrino] a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!
--1 cor 6
Quote from: Molly on September 02, 2010, 09:21:44 AM
One more time--
Krino in the future
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
2 Don't you know that God's people will judge the world? And if you are going to judge the world, aren't you able to judge small cases? 3 Don't you know that we will judge angels? Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more!
--1 Cor 6
God's people will judge the world. We will judge angels. Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more.
Diakrino now--
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
To which end Paul gives the brethren permission to judge--diakrino-- among themselves.
Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!
--1 cor 6
The big question is, what do YOU think that judgment will is, will be.....funny these scriptures have been on my mind for a few days
Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
:thumb
I wonder why that is
QuoteThe big question is, what do YOU think that judgment will be.....
What judgment? Now or in the future?
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
--Rev 5
QuoteWhat judgment? Now or in the future?
Both??
Quote from: Shadow on September 02, 2010, 09:48:34 AM
QuoteWhat judgment? Now or in the future?
Both??
sounds like to me--It's different--now and in the future.
In the future, the saints will be real judges with the full power of judges. The saints will rule and reign with Christ.
Now we are to learn to discern good and evil. That's why he says, don't judge like a judge with full power of sentencing, punishment now [krino].
[Because you are liable to go overboard.] When Paul talks about judging among the brethren, it sounds to me more like civil disputes [rather than criminal].
Now, that said, I feel I am able to look at Judas and make a judgment [diakrino] about what he did and whether it is good or evil.
That's how I understand it as well, Molly. Being able to resolve disputes among ourselves without turning to "the world" courts for intervention in matters amongst the ecclesia. I also believe the concept in the scriptures Shadow presented are important as well. IMO, they speak of an attitude of humility, i.e., knowing we're sinners saved by grace. Paul said he was the worst of sinners. So to me, it's a real balancing act now.
However, in the future/next age, I also believe the ecclesia will be given the responsibility of helping bring the rest in - serving as priests, kings, and judges - commissioned and empowered by God. He will set the parameters.
To whom much is given, much is required. By grace are we saved through faith, and that a gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast. So I think there's a place for beating one's chest and asking God to have mercy. I have to remember the scripture, "let no man think more of himself than he ought". Day by day it's a refining, learning, growing experience - step by step He leads us. :2c:
We are to judge ourselves who is in the Body of Christ
by the Standard of Gods Word , what is written for examples :winkgrin:
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily,
eateth and drinketh damnation to himself,
not discerning the Lord's body.
For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you,
and many sleep.
1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves,
we should not be judged. But when we are judged,
we are chastened of the Lord,
that we should not be condemned with the world.
Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.
Eze 44:5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.
1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
the True Church , the Body of Christ is being judged now
she is being fed the blood and flesh of CHRIST annointing to live have life in her , saved by bearing holy children Gods holoy one
Quote from: Shadow on September 02, 2010, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: MollyWhat judgment? Now or in the future?
Both??
:thumbsup: Good answer Shadow!
All the "future" amounts to, is... "
NOW" which has yet to manifest within finite progression. :dontknow:
ALL there actually
IS, was or ever "WILL BE"... is
NOW.
This is WHY... "
NOW" is the DAY of SALVATION... Paul was not noting that the DAY in which HE LIVED was the only "NOW", in which Salvation would be accessed! ALL time finds itself encompassed in ..."
NOW"...
He was saying that
NOW (which is the only EXISTANT time)... is the
DAY in which Salvation would be manifest...
Paul's "
NOW" ---> our "
NOW" ---> our children's "
NOW" ---> their children's "
NOW"... END
to BEGINNING.
Until one is able to catch a glimpse of this premise, ones eyes shall remain in
finite observation of the Scriptures, which are INFINITE...
...willieH :cloud9:
The world is now in a [default] condemnation because men love the darkness since all their works are evil.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
--John 3
Things go on behind the scenes that no one is aware of but that all are affected by. Secret societies, midnight trials, secret meetings of the very type of plotters who killed Jesus go on to this day. They make the decisions and the rest go along because they are kept in darkness and all their works are evil. Everything is happening in the dark.
13And they cried out again, Crucify him.
14Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.
--Mark 15
Quote from: willieH on September 02, 2010, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: Shadow on September 02, 2010, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: MollyWhat judgment? Now or in the future?
Both??
:thumbsup: Good answer Shadow!
All the "future" amounts to, is... "NOW" which has yet to manifest within finite progression. :dontknow:
ALL there actually IS, was or ever "WILL BE"... is NOW.
This is WHY... "NOW" is the DAY of SALVATION... Paul was not noting that the DAY in which HE LIVED was the only "NOW", in which Salvation would be accessed! ALL time finds itself encompassed in ..."NOW"...
He was saying that NOW (which is the only EXISTANT time)... is the DAY in which Salvation would be manifest...
Paul's "NOW" ---> our "NOW" ---> our children's "NOW" ---> their children's "NOW"... END to BEGINNING.
Until one is able to catch a glimpse of this premise, ones eyes shall remain in finite observation of the Scriptures, which are INFINITE...
...willieH :cloud9:
I can imagine you singing John Lennons song.
"Imagine there's no religion, no country too"
Quote from: thinktank on September 02, 2010, 10:50:26 PM
Quote from: willieH on September 02, 2010, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: Shadow on September 02, 2010, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: MollyWhat judgment? Now or in the future?
Both??
:thumbsup: Good answer Shadow!
All the "future" amounts to, is... "NOW" which has yet to manifest within finite progression. :dontknow:
ALL there actually IS, was or ever "WILL BE"... is NOW.
This is WHY... "NOW" is the DAY of SALVATION... Paul was not noting that the DAY in which HE LIVED was the only "NOW", in which Salvation would be accessed! ALL time finds itself encompassed in ..."NOW"...
He was saying that NOW (which is the only EXISTANT time)... is the DAY in which Salvation would be manifest...
Paul's "NOW" ---> our "NOW" ---> our children's "NOW" ---> their children's "NOW"... END to BEGINNING.
Until one is able to catch a glimpse of this premise, ones eyes shall remain in finite observation of the Scriptures, which are INFINITE...
...willieH :cloud9:
I can imagine you singing John Lennons song.
"Imagine there's no religion, no country too"
:laugh: hmmm....
YOU seem to be pretty well aquainted with the words to this tune, "tank"! :pointlaugh:
I'll just consider the source (YOU) on this one... :laughing7:
Actually the world would be better off if "religion" didn't exist in it... and in the end, "religion" doesn't have a thing to do with the doings of the
WORD...
MANY of those who (in the "christian" portion of religion) "come in the name of
CHRIST" shall find these words ringing in their ears (will YOU be counted among them "tank"?):
Matt 7:22-23 --
MANY will say unto Me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? ...and then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU, depart from Me, ...ye that WORK INIQUITY.so much for ..."religion"... :sigh:
...willieH :cloud9:
MANY of those who (in the "christian" portion of religion) "come in the name of CHRIST" shall find these words ringing in their ears (will YOU be counted among them "tank"?):
willie
:bigGrin: I hope not, things can change over time though, some people start off well in their Christian walk but sadly lose their way. So my hope is in Christ that he that has began a work in me shall complete till the day of Christ.
Quote from: thinktank on September 03, 2010, 06:12:35 PM
MANY of those who (in the "christian" portion of religion) "come in the name of CHRIST" shall find these words ringing in their ears (will YOU be counted among them "tank"?):
willie
:bigGrin: I hope not, things can change over time though, some people start off well in their Christian walk but sadly lose their way. So my hope is in Christ that he that has began a work in me shall complete till the day of Christ.
God is working ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11 -- which leaves out...
NOTHING.
If you "lose your way", it was decided you would by a higher power than yourself... For
CHRIST is the "keeper" of those who do NOT
"lose their way" --
Jude 24 -- and the FOREORDINATION of God is the manifestation of that "keeping" --
Eph 2:10"Think" what you wish, "tank"... it has nothing to do with what WAS, IS or WILL BE... for it is GOD's province to decide
ALL THINGS, and their individual manifestations, progressions, and existence,
IN CHRIST... as He places them, one by one, below His feet --
1 Cor 15:25-28...willieH :happygrin:
QuoteFor CHRIST is the "keeper" of those who do NOT "lose their way" -- Jude 24
That is really lovely.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
--Jude 1
Quote from: willieH on September 03, 2010, 10:13:29 PM
Quote from: thinktank on September 03, 2010, 06:12:35 PM
MANY of those who (in the "christian" portion of religion) "come in the name of CHRIST" shall find these words ringing in their ears (will YOU be counted among them "tank"?):
willie
:bigGrin: I hope not, things can change over time though, some people start off well in their Christian walk but sadly lose their way. So my hope is in Christ that he that has began a work in me shall complete till the day of Christ.
God is working ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- which leaves out... NOTHING.
If you "lose your way", it was decided you would by a higher power than yourself... For CHRIST is the "keeper" of those who do NOT "lose their way" -- Jude 24 -- and the FOREORDINATION of God is the manifestation of that "keeping" -- Eph 2:10
"Think" what you wish, "tank"... it has nothing to do with what WAS, IS or WILL BE... for it is GOD's province to decide ALL THINGS, and their individual manifestations, progressions, and existence, IN CHRIST... as He places them, one by one, below His feet -- 1 Cor 15:25-28
...willieH :happygrin:
so if christ is the keeper of those that do
not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who
do lose their way?
Quote from: thinktank on September 04, 2010, 06:31:25 PMso if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?
A shepherd is a keeper of the sheep in the flock. But also goes searching lost sheep. So the shepherd is the keeper of all sheep.
Besides of that the devil doesn't keep anything. He just destroys.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 04, 2010, 07:34:20 PM
Quote from: thinktank on September 04, 2010, 06:31:25 PMso if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?
A shepherd is a keeper of the sheep in the flock. But also goes searching lost sheep. So the shepherd is the keeper of all sheep.
Besides of that the devil doesn't keep anything. He just destroys.
Halleuja!!!! Glory! well said :thumbsup: :happygrin:
Sheep follow the leader. They are not very bright animals.
So, if there is a wolf in sheep's clothing, they will follow the wolf right over a cliff [or into his den].
The shepherd comes in through the gate, but the thief comes into the sheep pen over the fence. He is illigitimate, a thief, a liar, a poser, and means to harm and destroy the sheep--a wolf, a predator who eats sheep for breakfast.
But the shepherd will lay down his life for the sheep.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 04, 2010, 07:34:20 PM
Quote from: thinktank on September 04, 2010, 06:31:25 PMso if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?
A shepherd is a keeper of the sheep in the flock. But also goes searching lost sheep. So the shepherd is the keeper of all sheep.
Besides of that the devil doesn't keep anything. He just destroys.
I kind of agree, but I have found a scripture which supports the idea that the devil keeps people in the underworld for a season, until it is their time to go home. He keeps them there because he is the accuser of the brethren and like a smart lawyer he uses people's sins against them as a tool to keep them from God.
:2c:
What scripture, TT?
Quote from: thinktank on September 04, 2010, 10:29:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 04, 2010, 07:34:20 PM
Quote from: thinktank on September 04, 2010, 06:31:25 PMso if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?
A shepherd is a keeper of the sheep in the flock. But also goes searching lost sheep. So the shepherd is the keeper of all sheep.
Besides of that the devil doesn't keep anything. He just destroys.
Chapter and verse please
I kind of agree, but I have found a scripture which supports the idea that the devil keeps people in the underworld for a season, until it is their time to go home. He keeps them there because he is the accuser of the brethren and like a smart lawyer he uses people's sins against them as a tool to keep them from God.
:2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 05, 2010, 12:40:03 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 04, 2010, 07:34:20 PM
Quote from: thinktank on September 04, 2010, 06:31:25 PMso if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?
A shepherd is a keeper of the sheep in the flock. But also goes searching lost sheep. So the shepherd is the keeper of all sheep.
Besides of that the devil doesn't keep anything. He just destroys.
Chapter and verse please
Keep => Parable of the lost sheep...
Destroy => The devil misleads people. He makes them lost/stray from the flock. Lost=destroyed (lost/destroyed coin parable)
Quote from: thinktank on September 04, 2010, 10:29:13 PM
I kind of agree, but I have found a scripture which supports the idea that the devil keeps people in the underworld for a season, until it is their time to go home. He keeps them there because he is the accuser of the brethren and like a smart lawyer he uses people's sins against them as a tool to keep them from God.
:2c:
:cloud9: Waiting..... :winkgrin:
I think the devil keeps them in a holding ThinkTank :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 05, 2010, 01:27:00 AM
I think the devil keeps them in a holding ThinkTank :icon_jokercolor:
The project for a new american century. Yeah. :icon_joker:
willieH: Hi Tank... :winkgrin:
Quote from: thinktank on September 04, 2010, 06:31:25 PMso if christ is the keeper of those that do not lose their way then does that mean the devil is the keeper of those who do lose their way?
CHRIST is the "keeper" of those whom are CHOSEN by GOD, to KNOW ...THE "WAY"... No one "finds" their "way"...
They are either dragged to the
WORD and the UNVEILED by
IT --
John 6:44 -- Matt 11:27 -- (according to the DECLARATION of
YHVH, made before ANYTHING took place --
Isaiah 46:10) ...or they are NOT... in either case it is the WILL of
YHVH which envelops ALL in His Creation... DIRECTING their steps according to that WILL... :nod:
There is no "devil" which is sentient, nor has an agenda to "keep" anything. Only in the minds of those who FEAR (
1 John 2:18) is there place set aside for such a myth.
GOD "keeps the way" of those foreordained by the ELECTION of
YHVH --
Eph 2:10 -- and neither the manifestation of GOOD or EVIL has to do with that PREDETERMINED, DIVINE decision --
Rom 9:11Those which appear to "lose" their way, never "found" it to begin with, because they were not CHOSEN (beforehand) to find
THE WAY --
Jer 10:23ALL the steps of
ALL MEN are DIRECTED according to the workings of
YHVH --
Prov 20:24 -- 16:1, 9 -- When will you get it bro? What part of
YHVH "working" ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11 -- escapes your understanding?
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 05, 2010, 01:00:32 AM
Quote from: thinktank on September 04, 2010, 10:29:13 PM
I kind of agree, but I have found a scripture which supports the idea that the devil keeps people in the underworld for a season, until it is their time to go home. He keeps them there because he is the accuser of the brethren and like a smart lawyer he uses people's sins against them as a tool to keep them from God.
:2c:
:cloud9: Waiting..... :winkgrin:
:cloud9: Me waiting too! ..... :winkgrin: :laughing7:
...willieH :happy3:
Yep waiting :thumbsup:
Satan is called the 'accuser of our brethren."
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
"accuser"
G2725
κατήγορος
katēgoros
kat-ay'-gor-os
From G2596 and G58; against one in the assembly, that is, a complainant at law; specifically Satan: - accuser.
In order to be susceptible to a 'kategoros,' or a prosecutor, you need to be under law.
Paul tells us this has been true of the brethren--before they were under grace, they were under the law..
22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Galatians 3:23
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
Jesus sets us free from the law so that we can no longer be accused or imprisoned by Satan.
Psalm 68:18
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Romans 11:32 (ACV) For God has confined all men in disobedience, so that he might be merciful to all.
Galatians 4
1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world[aion].* 4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
*and, Satan is the god of this world. [2Cor4:4]
So then if we are born out of time [born too early], as Paul says of himself--
Paul tells us
Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
"world"
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Paul is telling us, Be not conformed to this age. Elsewhere, we are told that Satan is the god of this age [world].
So, then, it is interesting to look at the characteristics of this age. Lies is certainly a big one because, as Jesus tells us, Satan is the father of lies and that is his native tongue. It is also characterized by the use [misuse] of the law to turn people into slaves. But, Satan's minions [rulers of the age] consider themselves above the law.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
--Mat 23
And, what truth did Judas see before his heart exploded into a million pieces? That he had been following the rulers of the darkness of this age [eph 6], and that--
I have betrayed the innocent blood.
--Mat 27:4
I like what you said about the accuser and the law, we for get that sometimes.
Gal 4:3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the rudiments of the world:= world:G2889 kosmos, orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world.
Am I wrong about "world" in Gal.?
You are right, Micah, about Gal 4:3. "World" is kosmos there--
But, it's interesting how it puts it--
...we were in bondage under the elements of the world [kosmos]
It almost sounds like the laws of physics. lol
[under the] "elements"
G4747
στοιχειον
stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748; something orderly in arrangement, that is, (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively): - element, principle, rudiment.
of the world [kosmos]
4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
--Gal 4
The implications of this are....huge.
I agree. As for my understanding of elements( rudiment)I have found to look at
Heb 5:12 for even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food,
Then I have both the aoin and komos covered, I believe.
But I wonder what happened to the original post? How did the disscussion get here?
:cloud9: Simple.... :hijacked: :laughing7:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 07, 2010, 04:26:13 AM
:cloud9: Simple.... :hijacked: :laughing7:
:laughing7: Guess everybody got tired of porrrr olllld "Judas"... :laughhand:
:director: HEY TANK! :shakepoint: Card, Micah and I are still waiting on that "scripture"! :idea2:
You be out there somewhere? :JCThink: :clock: :dunno:
...willieH :cloud9:
:icon_flower: Judas is the Son of perdition within us ALL our eve---- Better is the day of our DEATH then the day of our ""BIRTH", hence why Judah - [our eve] wished it never been ""BIRTHED!----
:icon_flower:
I have a hard time thinking that anything that was born that it would have been better for anyone or anything if it had not been born. Nothing gets born that is not God ordained. How could it? I think everything is ultimately for our good or it wouldn't exist.
And he answered and said unto them, [It is] one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish. 21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. mk 14.20
Jacob I love, Esau I hate. Here again I don't see God just having to vent his hatred over one guy. Makes no sense.
In both sets of Scriptures I see the spiritual being put over the physical. It's not that the physical is hated or shouldn't have been created or born, it's that compared to the spiritual, the physical is much less and, mostly, a hinderance to the spiritual.
cp
Quote from: claypot on April 20, 2011, 07:41:26 PM
I have a hard time thinking that anything that was born that it would have been better for anyone or anything if it had not been born. Nothing gets born that is not God ordained. How could it? I think everything is ultimately for our good or it wouldn't exist.
And he answered and said unto them, [It is] one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish. 21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. mk 14.20
Jacob I love, Esau I hate. Here again I don't see God just having to vent his hatred over one guy. Makes no sense.
In both sets of Scriptures I see the spiritual being put over the physical. It's not that the physical is hated or shouldn't have been created or born, it's that compared to the spiritual, the physical is much less and, mostly, a hinderance to the spiritual.
cp
same principle about Judas bro--- :icon_flower:
So good to 'see' you again Taffy.
I agree. Judas needed to be born for God's purposes to come to fruition. If it were truely better for something to not have been born, then it wouldn't be.
cp
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/blog/book-update-better-had-judas-not-been-born-mt-2624/
http://overcomers.ca/blog_New_Jerusalem/The_New_Jerusalem_New_Creation_014.htm
Judas wos born from below....that is the reason better if he not bben born
have I not chosen you twelve,yet one of you is a devil
Judas parabolized what occurred in Heaven..when satan dwelled there before He was cast out, he symbolically portrayed the seed of the serpent
it would have been better ..obediance..instead of sacrifice
THE CASE OF JUDAS.
"It had been good for that man if he had not been born."—Matt. 26:24.
These words are supposed, by many professed religionists, to teach the endless perdition of Judas. How could it have been said of Judas, it is asked, "It had been good for that man if he had not been born," if he is finally to be saved? If he is to reach heaven at last, it certainly was good for him to have been born.
Many erroneous ideas have arisen in regard to the meaning of this passage by supposing that it had reference to the condition of Judas in the immortal state of existence. This language had not the least reference to the final condition of Judas. It was a common proverb among the Jews in our Savior's day, to indicate any severe calamity to befall an individual, without any reference to the future world. It had special application to events connected with this life. When any fearful calamity or judgment was to come upon an individual, it was common to say, "It were good for that man if he had not been born." It was a proverbial expression, or an expression in common use among the Jews, to denote any severe chastisement or great misfortune, or terrible calamity. The Savior, knowing its use, and aware of the fate of Judas, very appropriately applied it to him. Similar expressions had long been in use. Job cursed the day of his birth, and said: "Let the day perish wherein I was born." Job 3:1-3. Solomon said: "If a man live many years, and his soul be not filled with good; and also that he hath no burial: I say that an untimely birth is better than he." Eccles. 6:3. This is the same as saying, "It had been better if he had not been born." It was a common proverb to denote any great misfortune coming upon an individual; and as Judas would be overwhelmed with sorrow and smitten with grief and anguish, plunged into the greatest distress by a vivid sense of his sins, it was very properly applied to him without any reference to his immortal condition.
Kenrick says, in his Exposition, the expression—
"'It had been good for him, if he had never been born,' is a proverbial phrase, and not to be understood literally: for it is not consistent with our ideas of the divine goodness to make the existence of any being a curse to him, or to cause him to suffer more, upon the whole, than he enjoys happiness. Rather than do this, God would not have created him at all. But as it is usual to say of men who are to endure some grievous punishment or dreadful calamity, that it would have been better for them never to have been born, Christ foreseeing what Judas would bring upon himself, by delivering up his Master into the hands of his enemies, applies this language to him."
We call the reader's attention to the following from Dr. Adam Clarke, the Methodist commentator, upon this subject. He enters into a labored argument to show that Judas may be saved, and that his repentance was sincere, genuine, and acceptable to God. After mature deliberation, he thinks that "there is no positive proof of the final damnation of Judas in the sacred text." This is the opinion of one of the most learned and distinguished divines of the orthodox church. Dr. Clarke shows clearly that the language that stands at the head of this article was a proverbial expression to denote the state of any flagrant transgressor without regard to the future world. But we will let this distinguished commentator speak for himself. He says:
"Judas was indisputably a bad man; but he might have been worse: we may plainly see that there were depths of wickedness to which he might have proceeded, and which were prevented by his repentance. Thus things appear to stand previously to his end. But is there any room for hope in his death? In answer to this, it must be understood,—first: That there is presumptive evidence that he did not destroy himself; and, second: That his repentance was sincere. If so, was it not possible for the mercy of God to extend even to his case? It did so to the murderers of the Son of God; and they were certainly worse men, (strange as this assertion may appear), than Judas. Even he gave them the fullest proof of Christ's innocence: their buying the field with the money Judas threw down, was the full proof of it; and yet, with every convincing evidence before them, they crucified our Lord. They excited Judas to betray his Master, and crucified him when they got him into their power, and therefore St. Stephen calls them both the betrayers and murderers of that Just One, (Acts 7:52), in these respects they were more deeply criminal than Judas himself; yet, even to these very betrayers and murderers, Peter preaches repentance, with the promise of remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 3:12-26). If, then, these were within the reach of mercy, and we are informed that a great company of the priests became obedient to the faith, (Acts 6:7), then certainly Judas was not in such a state as precluded the possibility of his salvation. Surely the blood of the covenant could wash out even his stain, as it did that more deeply ingrained one, of the other betrayers and murderers of the Lord Jesus.
Should the 25th verse be urged against this possibility, because it is there said that Judas fell from his ministry and apostleship, that he might go to his own place, and that this place is hell. I answer,—first: It remains to be proved that this place means hell; and, second: It is not clear that the words are spoken of Judas at all, but of Matthias: his own place meaning that vacancy in the apostolate, to which he was then elected.
To say the repentance of Judas was merely the effect of his horror; that it did not spring from the compunction of heart; that it was legal and not evangelical, etc., is saying what none can with propriety say but God himself, who searches the heart. What renders his case most desperate, are the words of our Lord. (Matt. 26:24). "Wo unto that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born!" I have considered this saying in a general point of view in my note on Matt. 26:24, and were it not a proverbial form of speech among the Jews to express the state of any flagrant transgressor, I should be led to apply it, in all its literal import, to the case of Judas, as I have done in the above note, in the case of any damned soul; but when I find that it was a proverbial saying, and that it has been used in many cases, where the fixing of the irreversible doom of a sinner is not implied, it may be capable of a more favorable interpretation than what is generally given to it. I shall produce a few of those examples from Schoettgen, to which I have referred in my note on Matt. 26:24.
In Chagigah, fol. 2, 2, it is said, 'Whoever considers these four things, it would have been better for him had he never come into the world, viz.: That which is above; that which is below; that which is before; and that which is behind. And whosoever does not attend to the honor of his Creator, it were better for him had he never been born.'
In Shemoth Rabba, sect. 40, fol. 135, 1, 2, it is said, 'Whosoever knows the law, and does not do it, it had been better for him had he never come into the world.'
In Vayikra Rabba, sect. 26, fol. 179, 4, and Midrash Coheleth, fol. 91,4, it is thus expressed; 'It were better for him had he never been created; and it would have been better for him had he been strangled in the womb, and never have seen the light of this world.'
In Sohar Genes, fol. 71, col. 282, it is said, 'If any man be parsimonious towards the poor, it had been better for him had he never come into the world.' Ibid, fol. 84, col. 333. 'If any performs the law, not for the sake of the law, it were good for that man had he never been created.'
These examples sufficiently prove that this was a common proverb, and is used with a great variety and latitude of meaning; and seems intended to show that the case of such and such persons was not only very deplorable, but extremely dangerous; but does not imply the positive impossibility either of their repentance or salvation.
The utmost that can be said for the case of Judas is this: he committed a heinous act of sin and ingratitude; but he repented, and did what he could to undo his wicked act: he had committed the sin unto death, i. e., a sin that involves the death of the body; but who can say, (if mercy was offered to Christ's murderers, and the gospel was first to be preached at Jerusalem, that these very murderers might have the first offer of salvation through him whom they had pierced), that the same mercy could not be extended to wretched Judas? I contend, that the chief priests, etc., who instigated Judas to deliver up his Master, and who crucified him—and who crucified him, too, as a malefactor, having at the same time, the most indubitable evidence of his innocence — were worse men than Judas Iscariot himself; and that if mercy was extended to those, the wretched penitent traitor did not die out of the reach of the yearning of its bowels. And I contend farther, that there is no positive evidence of the final damnation of Judas in the sacred text.' —Clarke in loco.
This learned commentator contends that the repentance of Judas was genuine, and that "there is no positive evidence of the final damnation of Judas in the sacred text." Why, then, are we gravely asked, did he go and hang himself, as Matthew affirms? (Matt, 27:5) We would here state, that Luke gives a somewhat different account of his death. See Acts 1:18: "And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." How, then, are we to reconcile this apparent discrepancy between the two evangelists? One affirms that he hanged himself, the other that he fell headlong and burst asunder. The difficulty in question arises from an incorrect translation of the Greek word apegzato, here rendered "hanged himself." It does not necessarily have this meaning, and may be rendered, "was suffocated, as with grief or anguish." Eminent critics, as Dr. Clarke says, believe that Judas was suffocated with excessive grief. "Wakefield (he adds), supports this meaning of the word with great learning and ingenuity." Dr. George Campbell, an eminent Scotch Presbyterian divine, says that "the Greek word plainly denotes strangling, but does not say how, by hanging, or otherwise. It is quite a different term that is used in those places where hanging is mentioned." He also adds, that it may be rendered, "was suffocated." Wakefield renders it, "was choked with anguish." This rendering of the original is supported by high authority, and is evidently correct.
Judas was overwhelmed with a sense of his sin, and sincerely repented before God, carried back the ill-gotten gain, and died of excessive grief, "was chocked with anguish," or "was suffocated." His grief was most intense; his anguish so burdensome, that he reeled beneath the oppressive load of guilt and sorrow, and fell prostrate to the earth, being suffocated with grief. He gave every evidence possible of deep sorrow for sin, and of genuine repentance.
Judas completed what he was sent to do.
Joh 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Joh 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in the spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Quote from: sheila on June 23, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
Judas wos born from below....that is the reason better if he not bben born
have I not chosen you twelve,yet one of you is a devil
Judas parabolized what occurred in Heaven..when satan dwelled there before He was cast out, he symbolically portrayed the seed of the serpent
it would have been better ..obediance..instead of sacrifice
Are you saying that Judas is a demon?
Could Judas be a demon.
Did Judas have human parents?
lol, don't we all?
There are scriptures that talk of angels appearing before us, unawares.
Not sure why Jesus called Judas a demon and it made me think as whether the bible actually lists the parents/familly of Judas.
Joh 13:2 And supper being come, the devil already having put it into the heart of Judas of Simon, Iscariot, that he may deliver him up,
G1228 diabolos a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.
From G1225; diaballō (figuratively) to traduce: - accuse
(A channel G1223)
Judas was/is part of the plan and purpose of The Father.
At least Judas held out for silver.
I sold Him for scraps of food and water.
Quote from: thinktank on July 19, 2011, 10:56:56 PM
There are scriptures that talk of angels appearing before us, unawares.
Not sure why Jesus called Judas a demon and it made me think as whether the bible actually lists the parents/familly of Judas.
This scripture came to mind , that was
better for that man not to be born.
Then quickly came
Scripture 2
Nicodemus talking to Jesus
That which is flesh is flesh
Then came scripture 3
His belly bowels guts came out
So I sense Judas is a human being and not a demon sent by God
But scriptures says he was filled with demon and/or devil
Ecclesiastes 6:3
New International Version (NIV)
3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.
A stillborn child is better than Judas in all his suffering .. I think he couldn't bear his wickedness... but even so God used his evil for good, by using it to facilitate the sacrifice of the Son.
:2c:
Judas was/is part of the plan and purpose of The Father.
Betrayed: G3860 paradidōmi to surrender, that is, yield up, intrust, transmit:
Everything Gos does is for good.
Judas Iscariot is burning in Hell, screaming in endless agony and that devil will be burning forever in eternal torment and agony. Hellfire is worse than anyone can imagine except God. If you take all if the worst physical, mental, and emotional torments that can ever befall and have ever befallen any human and all humans at the same time on the Earth, and magnify them a trillion trillion times google plex, that is nothing compared to what the people in Hell will experience conciously forever. Universalism is a lie from the pit of Hell. It is a lie from Satan the Devil himself. Anyone and everyone who teaches and preaches and endorses the Satanic demonic Luciferic lie of universal salvation in any of its forms is an enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ and is attacking His Gospel. Jesus Himself warned people that it is better to be saved and lose limbs and eyes than to be unsaved and die without Him whole, and end up burning in Hellfire forever.
Universalists of all forms are attempting to do the work of Satan and his followers: Taking the "teeth" away from God and His judgement. The sting of death is HELLFIRE and the ONLY persons who are immune to this are we who are born again/saved people.
Born Again Christians never have to worry about Hell. The lost do and need to turn to Jesus and be saved.
Why do you universalists attempt to butcher the very words of Jesus and His apostles so you can feel better with your fallen human emotions? Besides, your claim is easy to answer: Judas was a devil and is in hell. He died lost. The 12th apostle who REPLACED Judas was the Apostle PAUL. HIS name is written there on the New Jerusalem.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2010, 10:40:50 AM
TCBMark 14:21 For the Son of Humanity is going away, just as it has been written concerning Him; yet how terrible it is for that human through whome the Son of Humanity is delivered over! It would have been ideal for that human if he hadn't been born.
The red words are clearly about Jesus. Note that those words caps. I think everyone agrees with this part?
But what about the blue/green words? They have no caps so they can never refer to a devine person.
God, Father, Him, Son, HS etc are always written with caps. So the fact that human is written without caps clearly shows it's not a divine human. But I have to add here that using caps is a decision of the translators. Most of the times it's very obvious but this verse seems not that obvious....
The verse 'indentifies' Jesus as "Son of Humanity" and "Him" So why half way during the verse switch "title"
(Son of Humanity is some sort of title imo)
I think it's also clear the blue human (no caps) delivers over the Son of Humanity. Jesus didn't handover Himself.
That leaves the green human (no caps)
First note that in KJV a ! is in the middle of the sentence. In TCB a new sentence starts.
a] No caps -> not divine -> not Jesus
b] The green human is in a second sentence so clearly points to the blue human.
c] "yet how terrible it is for that human" + "It would have been ideal for that human if he hadn't been born." ==> The second part just describes in other words how terrible it is.
Also not that TCB uses 'delivered' instead of 'betrayed'.
Betrayed is clearly something that Jesus didn't approve.
But 'delivered' is a much more difficult word. It can range from something very positive like "deliver a baby" to betrayal. Personally I think Judas acted by orders of Jesus. It may sound weird Jesus was seeking His own death but it was all part of the big plan.
transitive verb
1 : to set free from restraint : set at liberty : release or liberate especially from control : rescue from actual or feared evil : FREE, SAVE *he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul— Ezek 33:5 (Authorized Version)* — often used with from or out of *delivered him from captivity*
2 : GIVE, TRANSFER : yield possession or control of : make or hand over : make delivery of : COMMIT, SURRENDER, RESIGN — often used with up or over, to or into *thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand— Gen 40:13 (Authorized Version)* *the constables have delivered her over— Shakespeare*
3 a : to assist (a parturient female) in giving birth *she was delivered of a fine boy* *the doctor has delivered several thousand women in his long career*; also : to aid in the birth of *sometimes it is necessary to deliver a child with forceps* b : to give birth to *she delivered a pair of healthy twins after a short labor*
4 a : to disburden (as oneself) in words : give forth in words : UTTER, SPEAK, ENUNCIATE *he delivered his speech effectively* b : to make known to another : COMMUNICATE *they delivered their ultimatum to the enemy*
5 : to send (something aimed or guided) to an intended destination *delivering a short uppercut to the jaw* *the frigate delivered a smashing broadside* *the pitcher delivered a curve to the batter*
6 archaic : to unload (as a ship) of cargo : EMPTY
7 : to bring (as votes) to the support of a particular candidate or cause *couldn't deliver the votes of his ward*
intransitive verb
1 : to set one free : DISBURDEN *a deliverance which does not deliver— R.W.Emerson*
2 : UTTER, DISCOURSE *he delivered beautifully but his speech had little real content*; sometimes : to express an opinion or judgment
3 : to give birth to offspring *patients that repeatedly deliver prematurely present special problems*
synonyms see FREE, RESCUE
–deliver a jail : to clear a jail by bringing all the prisoners to trial
–deliver the goods : to give results that are promised, expected, or desired
The caps are only the opinions of certain translators. I doubt they existed in the original manuscripts. The human who betrayed Jesus, betrayed Jesus, ACCORDING TO JESUS. What good is the word of God if nothing the Logos says is what He said but is instead some trussed up dodge around our theological hiccups :o) I kno that we must force the actions of the participants such as Jesus in order to bow to the gods of absolute predestination, however, IMO Jesus was speaking honestly of the horrible consequences that came into Judas' LIFE because of THE AWFUL DECISION he made to betray the son of man. It was a decision predestined ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD, who knows us all before we are born and all that we will do. Yet with the agony of conscience and the suicidal end of Judas, and his awakening within the fire of light that consumes every darkness- I can see why Jesus used such a pejorative statement as, "better if he had never been born".
Quote from: eaglesway on July 24, 2012, 06:42:56 AM
The caps are only the opinions of certain translators. I doubt they existed in the original manuscripts.
Caps, puntuation and spaces didn't exist in the orignal Scriptures.
jUDAS AS THE SON OF PERDITION WITH THE SPIRIT OF SATAN DWELLING IN HIM..AS A LIAR AND THEIF THAT WOULD KILL THE ANNOINTED KING/PREIST
WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF..IF HE HAD NEVER BEEN BORN
YOU CAN BE BORN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND YOU CAN BE BORN OF THE DEVIL[OFFSPRING OF VIPER]
OUR FLESH IS WEAK..IT ACCEPTS BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE SPIRIT TO MOTIVATE IT. jUST AS THE hOLY SPIRIT OF GOD GOES TO AND FRO
IN THE EARTH TO ACCOMPLISH THE WILL OF GOD..SATAN'S SPIRIT DOES ALSO[JOB 1;7]
JESUS WAS QUOTING A SCRIPTURE IN ECCLESIASTES ABOUT THE FUTILITY AND VANITY THE CREATURE WAS SUBJECTED TO
CH 3;16 AND I SAW SOMETHING ELSE UNDER THE SUN; IN THE PLACE OF JUDGEMENT WICKEDNESS WAS THERE, IN THE PLACE OF JUSTICE
WICKEDNESS WAS THERE
CH 4 I SAW THE TEARS OF THE OPPRESSED-AND THEY HAVE NO COMFORTOR;POWER WAS ON THE SIDE OF THEIR OPPRESSORS-AND THEY HAVE
NO COMFORTOR.
AND I DECLARED...THAT THE DEAD, WHO HAD ALREADY DIED,ARE HAPPIER THAN THE LIVING,WHO ARE STILL ALIVE
but..
.BETTER THAN BOTH IS HE WHO HAS NOT YET BEEN, WHO HAS NOT SEEN THE EVIL THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN
IF THEY DO THIS WHEN THE TREE IS STILL GREEN..WHAT WILL THEY DO WHEN THE TREE IS DRY
QuoteJudas better if he had not been born?
I think in putting the New Testament account of the reason for Jesus being born on Earth, one may be served in considering the Judas question in a different light than that what is prescribed by the scriptures that make him out to be one who was taken over by the adversary and is thus damned for eternity for betraying the son of man.
If Yeshua (Jesus) came to earth in order to take away all the worlds sins, and upon the cross confessed that his mission had been accomplished, how then was that mission to achieve it's goal? If Judas had not served his part in turning Yeshua over to those who sought him out so that he could commence to that end.
How else, in believing "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life", would the blood of the lamb afford redemption and salvation of the worlds people from their sin if Jesus had not spilled it on the cross?
And how else would he have come to be there, were it not for Judas setting the entire thing in motion, doing his part, according to the plan God had set for himself by electing to arrive on earth being born of a virgin and thus sinless, so as to take the worlds sins unto himself.
I don't believe the condemnation of Judas by scripture is contextually fair or credible in rendering his actions into a negative light. I think Judas acted according to what God had began as the plan of salvation and without Judas that plan would not have been accomplished. Jesus, at the last supper, commanded Judas to go forth and do what he needed to do.
In a room full of apostles, in the presence of the all knowing Christ, is it reasonable to imagine Judas, whom Jesus clearly knew and foresaw his intentions would have ever gotten out of the room, being he was about to go forth and turn Jesus over to those in the temple who sought him out for crucifixion for the crime of blasphemy? While Roman authorities sought Jesus for sedition.
Judas was part of the plan. And the scripture I believe indicates Jesus was well aware of this. Thus, in my opinion, Jesus is a hero for insuring Yeshua's mission was accomplished through the means that was deemed necessary by God's will.
Judas understood the kingdom
Judas was a part of the plan, yet- so was Hitler, and so many others, such as Pharoah. The scriptures portray Judas in the light he ought to be portrayed in, a flawed man who betrayed his best friend for a little silver, but then, subsequently so regretted his action, condemning it himself within HIS OWN CONSCIENCE, that he spit out the reward of his treachery, which had turned to ash and took his own life because he could not bear the PAIN OF REGRET. Everything that has occurred will flow into God's eventual purpose, the reconciliation of all through the shed blood of Jesus and the glorious demonstration of the Father's love at the cross. (If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me). Nevertheless, along the way, the lessons learned by the wicked will be hard ones.
IMO Judas betrayed Jesus because of unbelief and greed- not because he understood the kingdom.
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. (1 Cor. 2)
Quote from: eaglesway on September 10, 2012, 05:56:34 PM
Judas was a part of the plan, yet- so was Hitler, and so many others, such as Pharoah. The scriptures portray Judas in the light he ought to be portrayed in, a flawed man who betrayed his best friend for a little silver, but then, subsequently so regretted his action, condemning it himself within HIS OWN CONSCIENCE, that he spit out the reward of his treachery, which had turned to ash and took his own life because he could not bear the PAIN OF REGRET. Everything that has occurred will flow into God's eventual purpose, the reconciliation of all through the shed blood of Jesus and the glorious demonstration of the Father's love at the cross. (If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me). Nevertheless, along the way, the lessons learned by the wicked will be hard ones.
IMO Judas betrayed Jesus because of unbelief and greed- not because he understood the kingdom.
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. (1 Cor. 2)
Fantastico