Gehenna not trash dump?

[shawn]

What do you all think about this opinion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

According to parts of the Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and false gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6 The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier in-tertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

In time it became deemed to be accursed and an image of the place of destruction in Jewish folklore[1][2]. However, Jewish folklore suggests the valley had a 'gate' which led down to a molten lake of fire (see Sheol).



There is a lack of direct references to Gehenna in the Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls, Pseudepigrapha and Philo.

Josephus does not deal with this aspect of the history of the Hinnom Valley in his descriptions of Jerusalem for a Roman audience. Nor does Josephus make any mention of the tradition commonly reported in older Christian commentaries that in Roman times fires were kept burning and the valley became the garbage dump of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals were thrown. Source references for this tradition seem to be lacking.

The southwestern gate of Jerusalem, overlooking the valley, came to be known as "The Gate of the Valley"

[WhiteWings]

Shawn your article states that the current understading of Gehenna is "invented" 1200 AD
All quoted church fathers lived long before 1200AD.
So the concept of Gehenna was known before 1200AD


The reader of Farrar's "Mercy and Judgment," and "Eternal Hope," and
Windet's "De Vita functorum statu," will find any number of statements from the Talmudic and other
Jewish authorities, affirming in the most explicit language that Gehenna was understood by the
people to whom our Lord addressed the word as a place or condition of temporary duration. They
employed such terms as these "The wicked shall be judged in Gehenna until the righteous say
concerning them, 'We have seen enough.'"5 "Gehenna is nothing but a day in which the impious will
be burned." "After the last judgment Gehenna exists no longer." "There will hereafter be no
Gehenna."6 These quotations might be multiplied indefinitely to demonstrate that the Jews to whom
our Lord spoke regarded Gehenna as of limited duration, as did the Christian Fathers.
===> Meaning the Jews knew the concept of Gehenna.
Origen in his reply to Celsus (VI, xxv) gives an exposition of Gehenna, explaining its usage in his day. He says it is an analogue of the well-known valley of the Son of Hinnom, and signifies the fire of purification.

Timotheus II., patriarch
of the Nestorians, wrote that "by the prayers of the saints the souls of sinners may pass from Gehenna
to Paradise,"Origen declares that Gehenna is an analogue of the Valley of Hinnom and connotes a purifying
fire6Gehenna and its fires have the same signification: "We find that what was termed 'Gehenna' or 'the
Valley of Ennom,' was included in the lot of the tribe of Benjamin, in which Jerusalem also was
situated. And seeking to ascertain what might be the inference from the heavenly Jerusalem belonging
to the lot of Benjamin, and the Valley of Ennom, we find a certain confirmation of what is said
regarding the place of punishment, intended from the purification of such souls as are to be purified
by torments, agreeably to the same,--'the Lord cometh like a refiner's fire and like fuller's soap; and he
shall sit as a refiner and purifies of silver and of gold.'" Ag. Cels., VI. xxvi.

http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?Keywords=Gehinnom
http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=857&pageid=89&pagename=Features

[WhiteWings]

Jesus usually used earthly things to explain spiritual things.
But why use Gehenna if it had no meaning to His audience?
Molech worship has stopped long ago at the time Jesus preached.
IIRC the worship of Molech was about sacrifice of babies. Would Jesus suggest that only babies would go to 'hell'?
Babies were not cast into Molech. They bound in his extended hand or locked inside of his metal statue and afterwards the fire was lit.
So no eternal fire. Just during the sacrifice. The Molech sacrifices were long before Jesus preached. First a few verses:


^KJVLev. 18:21  And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

^KJVLev. 20:2  Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

^KJVLev. 20:3  And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

^KJVLev. 20:4  And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:

^KJVLev. 20:5  Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

^KJV1 Ki. 11:7  Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

^KJV2 Ki. 23:10  And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.

^KJVJer. 32:35  And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.Father seems to hold a grudge against Molech (sacrifices)
So to me it sounds very weird that a few centuries later Father sent His Son to preach about Molech.
If Jesus didn't preach about Molech. If the Gehenna trash dump concept was invented 1200 AD. What was Jesus refering too?
The valley was just wasteland. No Molech. No fires. No worms.

[shawn]

You know I agree with you WW especially about Jesus using a reference that the listener would understand.  With that said, I don't see anyone calling it a trash dump or crematory.  Is it just possible it was a well known spiritual analogy but wasn't not a crematory?  I am wondering why they haven't found archeological evidence to support the notion. 

I have been parroting what I have heard over and over again about Gehenna but it's possible it's not true.  I do believe however that Gehenna is the cursed valley.  We of course want references at the time of Jesus so the Talmud is out.  Enoch does have a reference as well.

This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)

If anyone has the word used to translate forever here that would be greatly appreciated.

So, it's obvious that Gehenna would have been known to the listener as the cursed valley.  But what would they have known about it?

4 Ezra and deeds of iniquity shall not sleep.
36 And then shall rthe pit of tormentr appear,
sand over against it the place of refreshments;
The furnace of Gehenna shall be made manifest,
and over against it the Paradise of delight.
(and then go down to vs. 43) And its duration shall be as it were a week of years. 44 Such is my Judgement and bits prescribed orderb: to thee only have I showed these things.

I think Ezra and Enoch give us our best looks at what Jews of Jesus time knew of Gehenna.  It was a place of judgement and "punishment".  I place punishment in quotation because I have not closed the door on the fact that it could be a purification.

The only problem we have with a week of years is the number 7.  A week (7 days) is a tricky number in the Bible in that it means completion.  I believe the number is symbolic for Gehenna lasting to a fulfillment of God's time.  While I admit that could indeed mean forever, the fact that there seems to have wording of an ending indicates to me that Gehenna is indeed temporal.  I think it's more likely that Gehenna has a completion as well.  Back to the ED vs UR debate on the matter.  Are people purified by the process or destroyed by the process?  This is where reasoning becomes tricky for me.  Because, it makes sense to me that it would be for purification rather than destruction (especially if it's not known as a trash dump).  For me, the crematory/trash dump scenerio means destruction...you don't pull something out of the crematory to be purified.  Why do I believe that?  Well, the price has been paid.  Does God need double payment for sin?  The blood of Jesus paid the price for ALL of mankind.  So, why a need for further punishment unless it had a purpose other than punishment?  We have been purchased, bought with a price, sin is paid in full.  So, for me if Gehenna is not a quick destruction then why the need for further payment?  The answer for me, would be if this wasn't payment...that this was a purification.  Why the need to torture and punish before destruction if the payment has been made in full?



 

[WhiteWings]

You know I agree with you WW especially about Jesus using a reference that the listener would understand.  With that said, I don't see anyone calling it a trash dump or crematory.

Until you started this thread I would have said: Everyone says it's a trash dump.
I'm still looking for it but I (vaguely) remember a first hand quote from an historian that wrote that the Roman army burned 1000's of bodies in that valley.
I'll post the quote if I can find it....

Is it just possible it was a well known spiritual analogy but wasn't not a crematory?  I am wondering why they haven't found archeological evidence to support the notion.

If the citizens of Herusalem dumped their junk there for a long period of time it would heaven for archeologists. Surely they would find some junk something useful for a museum there.

I have been parroting what I have heard over and over again about Gehenna but it's possible it's not true.  I do believe however that Gehenna is the cursed valley.  We of course want references at the time of Jesus so the Talmud is out.  Enoch does have a reference as well.

Google a bit and about everyone parrots that idea....

This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)

If anyone has the word used to translate forever here that would be greatly appreciated.

That would require a Hebrew version. Olam/Owlam/עוָֹלם

So, it's obvious that Gehenna would have been known to the listener as the cursed valley.  But what would they have known about it?

I will only quote a
couple of sources from the Sages of Israel:
"Yet was the fire of the Gehenna created on the
eve of the Sabbath? Surely it was taught: Seven
things were created before the world was
created, and these are they: The Torah,
repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, theThrone of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the
Messiah".[18]
Ê
"It was taught: R Meir used to say, Great is
repentance, for on account of an individual who
repents, (does not need to die)[19] the sins of all
the world are forgiven, as it is said: I will heal
their backsliding. I will love them freely, for mine
anger is turned away from him. 'From them' it is
not said, but 'from him."[20] [21]Ê

The above quote implies that Gehenna also had a spiritual meaning...

I think Ezra and Enoch give us our best looks at what Jews of Jesus time knew of Gehenna.  It was a place of judgement and "punishment".  I place punishment in quotation because I have not closed the door on the fact that it could be a purification.

Whatever it is/was it's a bad place because Jesus warned about it.

The only problem we have with a week of years is the number 7.  A week (7 days) is a tricky number in the Bible in that it means completion.

Completion of judgement? But present day Rabbi's speak about 1 year at the very max.....

I believe the number is symbolic for Gehenna lasting to a fulfillment of God's time.  While I admit that could indeed mean forever, the fact that there seems to have wording of an ending indicates to me that Gehenna is indeed temporal.

Gehenna is related to judgement. If judgement ends then Gehenna is of no use anymore.

I think it's more likely that Gehenna has a completion as well.  Back to the ED vs UR debate on the matter.  Are people purified by the process or destroyed by the process?  This is where reasoning becomes tricky for me.  Because, it makes sense to me that it would be for purification rather than destruction (especially if it's not known as a trash dump).  For me, the crematory/trash dump scenerio means destruction...you don't pull something out of the crematory to be purified.  Why do I believe that?  Well, the price has been paid.  Does God need double payment for sin?  The blood of Jesus paid the price for ALL of mankind.

If so why did Jesus warn about Gehenna? Was that only for the time until He died?

So, why a need for further punishment unless it had a purpose other than punishment?  We have been purchased, bought with a price, sin is paid in full.

Maybe because of that payment Father overlooks the sins, but still we need to be changed in such a way that we don't sin again. (become saints)????

So, for me if Gehenna is not a quick destruction then why the need for further payment?  The answer for me, would be if this wasn't payment...that this was a purification.  Why the need to torture and punish before destruction if the payment has been made in full?

I agree. But still your wikipedia link bothers me  :winkgrin:



 

[jabcat]

I find this thread interesting, but a bit confusing/not altogether clear.

WW, could you or Shawn give us a 3 or 4 point summary of what's being explored here?  Sort of a "Gehenna For Dummies"?

Thanks, James.

[shawn]

Basically, it has been assumed by nearly everyone that Gehenna (the cursed valley) was used as a trash dump and crematory.  I linked the wikipage that said there was no literature of that time or archeological evidence to support that notion.  I wasn't quite able to follow WWs responses in their entirety so I hope he clarifies.

The main reason I believe this to be significant is obviously the connotation Jesus was inferring.  I gave a couple verses from before the time of Jesus...Enoch and Ezra supporting Gehenna was associated with judgement and "punishment".  By taking the crematory/trash dump out of the picture I actually think it helps support UR.  Reason?  Because you don't purify anything or anyone in a trash dump or crematory.  An object or corpse is placed there for destruction.  So, if true that connotation would not be the one Jesus referred to.  The main question that is still left in my mind is what did those first century believe Gehenna to be?

[jabcat]

Thanks for the summary of your points Shawn.

Tony, if you could briefly summarize your findings and what you think they mean, then maybe we can dig a little more in a pointed direction and consider this further together?

Thanks.   :bigGrin:

[Molly]

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

--Mat 23


[the] "damnation"

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.



"of hell"

G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.


Does this somehow also relate to these?--

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

--Rev 22



These are outside the New Jerusalem, [and, therefore, outside the kingdom of heaven,] which corresponds to the actual location of the valley of Hinnom with respect to the Temple and the city.


What is the justice/judgment/condemnation of Gehenna?

31And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

--Jer 7

[jabcat]

I'm not sure Molly, but probably somehow.

These are some varying bits of information I found;  I've placed brief(er) summaries at the beginning of each one, as the body of information is a bit longish.


Summary for #1 - One Jewish tradition states that a soul needs a maximum of 11 months for purification.  

#1  "Gehenna", is taken from the name of a valley of fire where children were said to be sacrificed as burnt offerings to Baal and Moloch (Semitic deities). Gehenna is a place of intense punishment and cleansing. This place is also known as "She'ol" and other names. This line of Jewish thought argues that after death the soul has to be purified before it can go on the rest of its journey. The amount of time needed for purification depends on how the soul dealt with life. One Jewish tradition states that a soul needs a maximum of 11 months for purification, which is why, when a parent dies, the kaddish (memorial prayer) is recited for 11 months. The concept of Gehenna as a place for temporary purification was the source for the orthodox Christian doctrine of "purgatory."
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/judaism06.html

------------------------------------------

Summary for #2 - Jesus deliberately invokes Jeremiah's appalling vision of the dead thrown into the valley of Hinnom during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem... it symbolizes God's devastating judgment on his people

#2 So my argument would be that Jeremiah 7:30-33; 19:1-13 provides the most relevant interpretive context for Jesus' notion of a judgment of gehenna. Just as the words in the temple about making it a 'den of robbers' are intended to recall Jeremiah's warning that God will destroy the temple because of the sin of the people (Jer. 7:8-15), so Jesus deliberately invokes Jeremiah's appalling vision of the dead thrown into the valley of Hinnom during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem. He does so because he believes that Israel is on a path that will sooner or later lead to the military destruction of Jerusalem.

Why is having one's corpse be cast into that valley any more terrible than being unceremoniously cast anywhere else? Something more seems to be going on.
Yes, something more is going on. The point about the corpse being thrown into the valley is that it symbolizes God's devastating judgment on his people. It is not simply death and lack of burial that is at issue here; it is the horror of God's rejection of his people.
Since everybody dies—and in ancient times that was often at a young age—the disaster of AD 70 seems inadequate to explain the severity of Jesus' warnings about avoiding Gehenna—that it is better to pluck out one's eye or cut off one's hand than to be cast into Gehenna (Matt 5:29-30). This is especially so in that most of his audience would be dead before AD 70 some forty years later. http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/1284

---------------------------------------------

Summary for #3 - Jesus warns of the terribleness of Gehenna, but indicates that such is apparently for the purification of the soul, not the destruction of the soul, for everyone shall undergo such purification, salted, seasoned by fire.

#3 Jesus actually indicates that purification was the purpose of Gehenna's fire in Mark 9. Warning of the terribleness of Gehenna, Jesus say that "if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (Gehenna), where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched'" (9:47-48). And Jesus goes on to say that " Everyone will be salted with fire" (9:49). Jesus warns of the terribleness of Gehenna, but indicates that such is apparently for the purification of the soul, not the destruction of the soul, for everyone shall undergo such purification, salted, seasoned by fire.

It reminds me of what Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 3:13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." What is burnt up is that which is worthless. Gehenna would be best theologically interpreted as "Purgatory," and certainly should definately NOT be interpreted as "Hell."

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/christian-universalism-forum/hell-eternal-or-not/10/?PHPSESSID=0c976e6d922a1cbb792636393ba01c62;wap2
-------------------------------
Summary for #4 - To be buried in Hinnom would be disgraceful and knowing this, Jesus says to those listening to him that they should do all they can in this life to avoid ending up in "Gehenna" or the Valley of Hinnom, the local garbage dump of the time. When we understand Jesus' words within the culture and context of 1st century Israel....Jesus used a very "infamous" location that virtually all Jews would know the history of as an allegory... Luke sees no reason to mention it in either his gospel or the Book of Acts. John sees no reason to mention Gehenna in his gospel, in his 3 epistles or the book of Revelation. Peter ignores it in his two epistles and Paul, author of 14 books of the New Testament counting Hebrews, doesn't mention Gehenna even one time. How can that be if all of mankind needs to be warned that they could end up in Gehenna?

#4 The valley of Hinnom is a literal place, a valley bordering Jerusalem. In every case when the translators came across this phrase in the Old Testament, they translated it as the valley of (the son of) Hinnom. Never once is it translated as "hell" in the Old Testament. The valley of Hinnom has a rather unpleasant history. Among other things, some believe that child sacrifice was carried out in this valley.
By the time of Jesus, the valley of Hinnom had become a garbage dump for Jerusalem with fires burning constantly to consume the garbage. However, garbage wasn't the only thing dumped in the valley. It has been suggested that the bodies of those so poor they couldn't afford a proper burial were sometimes dumped in the valley of Hinnom along with the bodies of some executed criminals whose bodies were not claimed by family. There the bodies would be consumed by the burning fires. In essence, to tell someone that their body deserved to end up in the valley of Hinnom meant that you viewed their life to have little meaning or value. You were basically telling them that the value of their life wasn't much more than garbage.

Within Judaism, bodies are treated with great respect and burial places are viewed as holy and sacred locations. Hebron has the Cave of the Patriarchs, the second holiest site to Jews. It is reputed to be the burial place of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca and Leah. They honour Joseph's burial spot in Shechem/Nablus and Rachel's burial spot near Bethlehem as well as the graves of many great rabbis.

To be buried in Hinnom would be disgraceful and knowing this, Jesus says to those listening to him that they should do all they can in this life to avoid ending up in "Gehenna" or the Valley of Hinnom, the local garbage dump of the time. When we understand Jesus' words within the culture and context of 1st century Israel, he isn't telling his listeners that they are going to have to "convert' or "get saved" or they will end up being punished forever in some place of eternal torment called hell. He is telling them that they need to change the way they are living so that at the end of their lives, their lives will have been lived with meaning and significance and will warrant an honourable burial as opposed to those who end up in the valley of Hinnom.

To expand upon this let me ask a question. When we read the word "hell" or the Greek word Gehenna in Matthew and Mark, did Jesus actually say hell or Gehenna? No, he didn't. He wasn't speaking English or Greek. He spoke Hebrew and/or Aramaic so using the Hebrew words, he have said gah-ee Hinnom (the valley of Hinnom) and every one of his audience would have known full well what he was referring to.

Consider the following if all of humanity is destined to end up in Gehenna if they don't get "saved." In 27 books of the New Testament, Gehenna is mentioned in only three, Matthew, Mark and James. In Matthew there are 3 mentions of Gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount. Certainly most of those listening that day were Jewish and very familiar with the Valley of Hinnom which is what Jesus would have said. In Matthew 10 and 18 Jesus uses the term Gehenna in conversations with his 12 Jewish disciples. In Matthew 23 Gehenna is used twice as Jesus chastizes the Jewish scribes and Pharisees. In Mark 9 Gehenna appears 3 times as Jesus again addresses his 12 Jewish disciples. And finally Gehenna appears in James 3:6. To whom was the book of James written to? According to James 1:1 it was written to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, in other words, to the Jews, Jews who would know all about the Valley of Hinnom.

Apparently all of mankind could end up in Gehenna and yet Luke sees no reason to mention it in either his gospel or the Book of Acts. John sees no reason to mention Gehenna in his gospel, in his 3 epistles or the book of Revelation. Peter ignores it in his two epistles and Paul, author of 14 books of the New Testament counting Hebrews, doesn't mention Gehenna even one time. How can that be if all of mankind needs to be warned that they could end up in Gehenna? How do you explain that half of the references to Gehenna occur in private conversations between Jesus and his disciples? Shouldn't Jesus, the disciples, Paul and the Bible as a whole be shouting the warning concerning of Gehenna to the entire world? Shouldn't someone in the book of Acts which is all about evangelization have mentioned Gehenna even one time?

Did we all have to wait for future Latin and English translators to show us the light when it comes to Gehenna?
Or might it be that Jesus used a very "infamous" location that virtually all Jews would know the history of as an allegory to exhort those who heard his teachings to change their lives, to transform their lives into something that would warrant a burial, not in the fires of the garbage dump in the Valley of Hinnom, but in a place that would be respected and honoured? The valley of Hinnom and the story behind it was "Jewish" and this explains why the Greeks had no word for it so they transliterated the name of the valley and got Gehenna. It wasn't some universal place of eternal punishment so trying to tell Gentiles about it or use it as a warning to transform their lives would have been pointless. Hence, Paul never tries to use it.

Let me conclude with a quote from Polybius, a Greek historian who lived from about 203 to 120 B.C. Regarding a place of eternal punishment, he wrote: "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions."
I think Polybius is very wise when it comes the doctrine of eternal punishment. He sees it as a totally man-made belief created to control the people and without question, the doctrine of hell is all of that and more. If you don't belong to our church and believe what we believe you are going to burn in hell for ever! If you are trying to control people, I am not sure it can get any better than that. Just keep pounding into peoples' heads that your group is the one true religion and if they don't accept your beliefs, they are going to burn in hell for ever. It is sheer brilliance. Create the ultimate fear and then announce that you have the antidote. Talk about creating the situation so you can exercise authority, control and power. Make the people sick and then produce the so-called cure. You know, you could make a lot of money doing that even today both in and outside the religious world.

http://dougtrudell.com/html/gehenna.html

Now, as to the OP;  I'm finding it hard to find consistent information about what exact beliefs were around the 1st century.  And when that info is found, it seems accompanied with a variety of interpretation and IMO, assumptions.   :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

Thanks for the summary of your points Shawn.

Tony, if you could briefly summarize your findings and what you think they mean, then maybe we can dig a little more in a pointed direction and consider this further together?

1] All Christian sites, leaders, commentators regardless of denomination seem to agree it's a trash dump.
2] Shawns site claims there is zero proof for that. I would expect that archeologist would find many things in such an former dump.
3] Some claim this verse is the proof (not for me)
^KJV2Ki 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
4] Generally speaking I think every city had a trash dump?
5] All Jewish sites seem to agree Gehenna is of limited duration. But none I could find speaks about a trash dump.
6] The early church fathers seems to agree with the Jews; but they are also silent about the trash dump.
7] At least one Jewish source writes Gehenna was created at the very start or even before Genesis 1:1.
8] I, vaguely, remember the Romans burned the dead after the war in the valley. But that 40 years after Jesus.
9] Go check out the "lost books" about OT and NT archeology hidden somewhere in the utter darkness of my shed :mblush:

[shawn]

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

--Mat 23


[the] "damnation"

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.



"of hell"

G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.


Does this somehow also relate to these?--

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

--Rev 22



These are outside the New Jerusalem, [and, therefore, outside the kingdom of heaven,] which corresponds to the actual location of the valley of Hinnom with respect to the Temple and the city.


What is the justice/judgment/condemnation of Gehenna?

31And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

--Jer 7

Molly, that was a wow moment for me.  Why?  Because, it never crossed my mind that Jesus could be referring to Gehenna as an actually geographical location.  While I believe Jesus had multiple meanings to the reference in mind, I think it's possible he is also talking about people being outside the Holy City in the valley.  Food for thought.  I really need to process that.

[shawn]

Thanks for the summary of your points Shawn.

Tony, if you could briefly summarize your findings and what you think they mean, then maybe we can dig a little more in a pointed direction and consider this further together?

1] All Christian sites, leaders, commentators regardless of denomination seem to agree it's a trash dump.
2] Shawns site claims there is zero proof for that. I would expect that archeologist would find many things in such an former dump.
3] Some claim this verse is the proof (not for me)
^KJV2Ki 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
4] Generally speaking I think every city had a trash dump?
5] All Jewish sites seem to agree Gehenna is of limited duration. But none I could find speaks about a trash dump.
6] The early church fathers seems to agree with the Jews; but they are also silent about the trash dump.
7] At least one Jewish source writes Gehenna was created at the very start or even before Genesis 1:1.
8] I, vaguely, remember the Romans burned the dead after the war in the valley. But that 40 years after Jesus.
9] Go check out the "lost books" about OT and NT archeology hidden somewhere in the utter darkness of my shed :mblush:

Per http://www.theopedia.com/Hell

They make it sound like the early church fathers did not agree with UR.

During the time of the early Apostolic Fathers, Christians believed hell would be a place of eternal, conscious punishment. In Ignatius of Antioch's letter To the Ephesians (ca. A.D. 117) we read: "Such a one shall go in his foulness to the unquenchable fire" (16:2). Likewise, in the Epistle to Diognetus (ca. A.D. 138) we read: . . . when you fear the death which is real, which is kept for those that shall be condemned to the everlasting fire, which shall punish up to the end those that were delivered to it. Then you will marvel at those who endure for the sake of righteousness the fire which is for a season (10:7-8). 40 And 2 Clement reads (ca. A.D. 150):
Nothing shall rescue us from eternal punishment, if we neglect his commandments (6:7).
And again:
'...when they see those who have done amiss, and denied Jesus by word or deed, are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire (17:7).
Finally, in the Martyrdom of Polycarp (ca. A.D. 156- 60) we read:
And the fire of their cruel torturers had no heat for them, for they set before their eyes an escape from the fire which is everlasting and is never quenched (2:3).
And again:
You threaten with the fire that burns for a time, and is quickly quenched, for you do not know the fire which awaits the wicked in the judgment to come and in everlasting punishment (11:2).

[Molly]

We have one Father and one Master.


9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

--Mat 23



The Pharisees and Sadducees have another father.

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.



So he's calling them sons of the devil and here he calls them 'sons of Gehenna.'


15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

--Mat 23


"child"

G5207
υιός
uihos
hwee-os'
Apparently a primary word; a "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.


"of hell"

G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.



What happened to the sons of those evil parents in gehenna?  They were burned in the fire--murdered-- by their own fathers.



13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

--Mat 23

[shawn]

Not sure where you are going with this Molly.  Can you clarify?

[Molly]

Not sure where you are going with this Molly.  Can you clarify?

I think Jesus is making a point relative to the church leaders of that time--that they themselves are the sons of Gehenna [preferring the devil to God] and that they therefore father new sons of Gehenna [with their oppression and emphasis on death [the law] rather than on life [Christ]].

In other words, it's a metaphor.

Gehenna being that place outside of the city [the kingdom of heaven] where fathers burned--murdered--their own sons.

[shawn]

Not sure where you are going with this Molly.  Can you clarify?

I think Jesus is making a point relative to the church leaders of that time--that they themselves are the sons of Gehenna [preferring the devil to God] and that they therefore father new sons of Gehenna [with their oppression and emphasis on death [the law] rather than on life [Christ]].

In other words, it's a metaphor.

Gehenna being that place outside of the city [the kingdom of heaven] where fathers burned--murdered--their own sons.

I like that.  More food for thought.

[WhiteWings]

Per http://www.theopedia.com/Hell

They make it sound like the early church fathers did not agree with UR.

It's easy to support everlasting punishment by translation age to everlasting. And not to forget ignore the church fathers always said purifying fire. So either the purifying doesn't work or the pure stay in hell....
Even Augustine wrote most would be saved. Yep, Augustine was less ET than today's ETs
I've seen enough quotes refuting the idea that the church fathers believed in ET. Again I promote reading [ur=http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/The_prevailing_doctrine.html]this page[/url] and this e-book. To summarize: the first 400 (500 excluding Augustine) year there wasn't a single church leader supporting ET according to the mentioned book. All believed in punishment in Gehenna. But it was purifying. And ending.

"In the last four hundred years before Christ there was extensive discussion among Jewish theologians concerning the Old Testament doctrine of everlasting punishment. Generally speaking, the Pharisees taught that there was everlasting punishment,

Was that why Jesus rebuked theirf teachings?

while the school of Hillel thought that the punishment of the ungodly would last only a year before they would be annihilated.

That view is still held by a minority of Jews.

The latter believed that some of the more wicked would go on being punished for some time. These interpretations of Jewish scholars in the intertestamental period are not decisive as they lack the further revelation of the New Testament. Their conclusions are not backed by Scripture."

Ha! That's means that the NT doesn't support ET (Pharisees) and neither does it support (delayed) ED (Hillel)

During the time of the early Apostolic Fathers, Christians believed hell would be a place of eternal, conscious punishment. In Ignatius of Antioch's letter To the Ephesians (ca. A.D. 117) we read: "Such a one shall go in his foulness to the unquenchable fire" (16:2).

Ignatius Probably a Destructionist.
It seems on the whole probable that while Ignatius did not dogmatize on human destiny, he
regarded the resurrection as conditional. But here, as elsewhere, the student should remember that the
pernicious doctrine of "reserve" or "oeconomy" continually controlled the minds of the early Christian
teachers, so that they not only withheld their real views of the future, lest ignorant people should take
advantage of God's goodness, but threatened consequences of sin to sinners, in order to supply the
inducements that they thought the masses of people required to deter them from sin. Dr. Ballou thinks
that this father held that the wicked "will not be raised from the dead, but exist hereafter as
incorporeal spirits." He was martyred A.D. 107.

Likewise, in the Epistle to Diognetus (ca. A.D. 138) we read: . . . when you fear the death which is real, which is kept for those that shall be condemned to the everlasting fire, which shall punish up to the end those that were delivered to it. Then you will marvel at those who endure for the sake of righteousness the fire which is for a season (10:7-8). 40 And 2 Clement reads (ca. A.D. 150):
Nothing shall rescue us from eternal punishment, if we neglect his commandments (6:7).

The Epistle to Diognetus.--This letter was long ascribed to Justin Martyr, but it is now generally
regarded as anonymous. It was written not far from A.D. 100, perhaps by Marcion, possibly by Justin
Martyr. It is a beautiful composition, full of the most apostolic spirit. It has very little belonging to our
theme, except that at the close of Chapter X it speaks of "those who shall be condemned to the
aionion fire which shall chastise those who are committed to it even unto an end," 11 (mechri telous).
Even if aionion usually meant endless, it is limited here by the word "unto" which has the force of
until, as does aidios in Jude 6,--"aidios chains under darkness, unto (or until) the judgment of the
great day." Such a limited chastisement, it would seem, could only be believed in by one who
regarded God as Diognetus's correspondent did, as one who "still is, was always, and ever will be
kind and good, and free from wrath."

Finally, in the Martyrdom of Polycarp (ca. A.D. 156- 60) we read:
And the fire of their cruel torturers had no heat for them, for they set before their eyes an escape from the fire which is everlasting and is never quenched (2:3).
And again:
You threaten with the fire that burns for a time, and is quickly quenched, for you do not know the fire which awaits the wicked in the judgment to come and in everlasting punishment (11:2).

"The Martyrdom of Polycarp" purports to be a letter from the church of Smyrna reciting the
particulars of his death. But though it is the earliest of the Martyria, it is supposed to have a much
later date than it alleges, and much has been interpolated by its transcribers. Eusebius omits much of
it. It speaks of the fire that is "aionion punishment," and it is probable that the writer gave these terms
the same sense that is given them by the Scriptures, Origen, Gregory and other Universalist writings
and authors.

[Molly]

I like that.  More food for thought.

It would have been a terrible indictment of them because they would have known full well what he was accusing them of--sacrificing their 'sons' [followers] to Molech and Ba'al.

[Now mind you, I have come to the conclusion that this is still what is going on in this world.  The word 'holocaust,' synonomous with genocide, means 'burnt offering.']

But, you can see why they were always plotting to kill him lol.


35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

--Mat 23

[shawn]

I like that.  More food for thought.

It would have been a terrible indictment of them because they would have known full well what he was accusing them of--sacrificing their 'sons' [followers] to Molech and Ba'al.

[Now mind you, I have come to the conclusion that this is still what is going on in this world.  The word 'holocaust,' synonomous with genocide, means 'burnt offering.']

But, you can see why they were always plotting to kill him lol.


35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

--Mat 23

Thanks for that read.  I'm sure it will be helpful.

[WhiteWings]

It just occured Gehanna (the physical valley) is west of Jerusalem. Father only looks towards the east. So in a way He turned His back on the dump.

Jeremiah 7:32-33 (YLT)
(Jeremiah 7:32) Therefore, lo, days are coming, An affirmation of Jehovah, And it is not said any more, `The Tophet,' And `Valley of the son of Hinnom,' But `Valley of the slaughter,' And they have buried in Tophet--without place.
(Jeremiah 7:33) And the carcase of this people hath been for food To a fowl of the heavens, and to a beast of the earth, And there is none troubling.

Tophet = place of fire.

Jeremiah 19:11 (YLT)
(Jeremiah 19:11) and hast said unto them: Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, Thus do I break this people and this city, as one breaketh the potter's vessel, that is not able to be repaired again, and in Tophet they bury--without place to bury;
------------------
The prophetic determinations of God often involve fire. This is because the sins of Jerusalem in the time of Jeremiah were so great, God said through the prophet that He would bring "unquenchable fires" upon the city,

"But if you will not hearken to Me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched."

Jeremiah 17:27

This was accomplished precisely according to 2 Chronicles 36:19 and Jeremiah 52:13. The fires of judgment burnt down Jerusalem completely. But as soon as the destruction of the city was over, the fires went out. They extinguished themselves back in the 6th century B.C.E. They were "unquenchable" back at that time in the sense that no one was able to put them out until they had performed their prophesied duty.
-------------
Likewise, Isaiah said that in a future time (Isaiah 66:24), the carcasses [dead bodies] of people who rebel against God will be given over to maggots for consumption. These worms will not die until they have consumed the bodies assigned to them. Other dead bodies will be set alight and "neither shall their fire be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24). These fires are prophesied to destroy the bodies of certain wicked people and God will not allow anyone to put out the fires — they are unquenchable. Obviously though, the worms are not immortal and the fires will finally go out of themselves when they have accomplished their tasks.

Needless to say, the fires in the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) were not eternal — they have long ago ceased. I have taken over 600 people on tours to Jerusalem and all of us have walked through Gehenna or driven cars through it. There are no longer any fires there. Indeed, there is a prophecy in Jeremiah that "the whole valley of the dead bodies [Gehenna]" will be made "holy unto the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:40). The prophecy shows that the burning of dead things in the region will permanently stop. Gehenna will even become "holy." This demonstrates that even the symbol of Gehenna as a place where dead bodies and refuse are burnt will cease as a fit type of God's destructive power.

I=the writer of the article who was an archelogist in Jerusalem near 1965

[shawn]

Did this archeologist find proof of trash or mass carcasses in the area?

[WhiteWings]

I know he was a UR believer and he died in ~2000. His site www.askelm.com is still online and maintained by someone that has picked up his work.
Maybe that person knows (email him). I've read quite a few articles on that site and printed books.
While not claiming I've read and remember everything I would say he never said Gehenna was not a trash dump or said he found proof it was a trashdump.

[WhiteWings]

I found this thread when doing some 'research' for nighflight's thread.

Pity this thread died because I think Reply #20 really is worth discussing....

40 And, all the vale of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Kidron torrent–bed, as far as the horse–gate corner on the east, Shall be holy unto Yahweh,––It shall not be rooted up, nor thrown down, any more, unto times age–abiding.

Gehenna will be holy to God.
Gehenna was an area of paganism, later it became either a garbage dump or waste land. But it will become the opposite. Holy. (just like Sodom and the other 4 cities IIRC)
If Gehenna symbolizes endless torture of billions of sinners I would imagine that would be the most unholy place of the whole kingdom.

[shawn]

I found this thread when doing some 'research' for nighflight's thread.

Pity this thread died because I think Reply #20 really is worth discussing....

40 And, all the vale of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Kidron torrent–bed, as far as the horse–gate corner on the east, Shall be holy unto Yahweh,––It shall not be rooted up, nor thrown down, any more, unto times age–abiding.

Gehenna will be holy to God.
Gehenna was an area of paganism, later it became either a garbage dump or waste land. But it will become the opposite. Holy. (just like Sodom and the other 4 cities IIRC)
If Gehenna symbolizes endless torture of billions of sinners I would imagine that would be the most unholy place of the whole kingdom.

Yes, I obviously remember this thread.   :grin:  Me, you, Jab and Molly discussed it but it didn't generate much interest.  I thought there was much to glean here.  What is actually fairly new to me is the fact that the Bible speaks about Gehenna, Sodom and other unholy cities becoming holy.  My Old Testament is weak so this is an area of new learning for me.

But, what is intriguing to me is still interesting even now.  I never understood why a trash dump could be a reference to a place of purification.  It never seemed like a proper analogy.  Being referred to as the cursed valley where unspeakable evils happened makes some sense, but never seemed to correlate with purification to me.  But, when you look at Jeremiah 31 and you see restoration things begin to match up with what we believe.  Which is the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil.