What do you all think about this opinion?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
According to parts of the Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and false gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6 The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier in-tertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
In time it became deemed to be accursed and an image of the place of destruction in Jewish folklore[1][2]. However, Jewish folklore suggests the valley had a 'gate' which led down to a molten lake of fire (see Sheol).
There is a lack of direct references to Gehenna in the Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls, Pseudepigrapha and Philo.
Josephus does not deal with this aspect of the history of the Hinnom Valley in his descriptions of Jerusalem for a Roman audience. Nor does Josephus make any mention of the tradition commonly reported in older Christian commentaries that in Roman times fires were kept burning and the valley became the garbage dump of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals were thrown. Source references for this tradition seem to be lacking.
The southwestern gate of Jerusalem, overlooking the valley, came to be known as "The Gate of the Valley"
Shawn your article states that the current understading of Gehenna is "invented" 1200 AD
All quoted church fathers lived long before 1200AD.
So the concept of Gehenna was known before 1200AD
The reader of Farrar's "Mercy and Judgment," and "Eternal Hope," and
Windet's "De Vita functorum statu," will find any number of statements from the Talmudic and other
Jewish authorities, affirming in the most explicit language that Gehenna was understood by the
people to whom our Lord addressed the word as a place or condition of temporary duration. They
employed such terms as these "The wicked shall be judged in Gehenna until the righteous say
concerning them, 'We have seen enough.'"5 "Gehenna is nothing but a day in which the impious will
be burned." "After the last judgment Gehenna exists no longer." "There will hereafter be no
Gehenna."6 These quotations might be multiplied indefinitely to demonstrate that the Jews to whom
our Lord spoke regarded Gehenna as of limited duration, as did the Christian Fathers.
===> Meaning the Jews knew the concept of Gehenna.
Origen in his reply to Celsus (VI, xxv) gives an exposition of Gehenna, explaining its usage in his day. He says it is an analogue of the well-known valley of the Son of Hinnom, and signifies the fire of purification.
Timotheus II., patriarch
of the Nestorians, wrote that "by the prayers of the saints the souls of sinners may pass from Gehenna
to Paradise,"
Origen declares that Gehenna is an analogue of the Valley of Hinnom and connotes a purifying
fire6
Gehenna and its fires have the same signification: "We find that what was termed 'Gehenna' or 'the
Valley of Ennom,' was included in the lot of the tribe of Benjamin, in which Jerusalem also was
situated. And seeking to ascertain what might be the inference from the heavenly Jerusalem belonging
to the lot of Benjamin, and the Valley of Ennom, we find a certain confirmation of what is said
regarding the place of punishment, intended from the purification of such souls as are to be purified
by torments, agreeably to the same,--'the Lord cometh like a refiner's fire and like fuller's soap; and he
shall sit as a refiner and purifies of silver and of gold.'" Ag. Cels., VI. xxvi.
http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?Keywords=Gehinnom
http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=857&pageid=89&pagename=Features
Jesus usually used earthly things to explain spiritual things.
But why use Gehenna if it had no meaning to His audience?
Molech worship has stopped long ago at the time Jesus preached.
IIRC the worship of Molech was about sacrifice of babies. Would Jesus suggest that only babies would go to 'hell'?
Babies were not cast into Molech. They bound in his extended hand or locked inside of his metal statue and afterwards the fire was lit.
So no eternal fire. Just during the sacrifice. The Molech sacrifices were long before Jesus preached. First a few verses:
KJVLev. 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
KJVLev. 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
KJVLev. 20:3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.
KJVLev. 20:4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:
KJVLev. 20:5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.
KJV1 Ki. 11:7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
KJV2 Ki. 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
KJVJer. 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Father seems to hold a grudge against Molech (sacrifices)
So to me it sounds very weird that a few centuries later Father sent His Son to preach about Molech.
If Jesus didn't preach about Molech. If the Gehenna trash dump concept was invented 1200 AD. What was Jesus refering too?
The valley was just wasteland. No Molech. No fires. No worms.
You know I agree with you WW especially about Jesus using a reference that the listener would understand. With that said, I don't see anyone calling it a trash dump or crematory. Is it just possible it was a well known spiritual analogy but wasn't not a crematory? I am wondering why they haven't found archeological evidence to support the notion.
I have been parroting what I have heard over and over again about Gehenna but it's possible it's not true. I do believe however that Gehenna is the cursed valley. We of course want references at the time of Jesus so the Talmud is out. Enoch does have a reference as well.
This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)
If anyone has the word used to translate forever here that would be greatly appreciated.
So, it's obvious that Gehenna would have been known to the listener as the cursed valley. But what would they have known about it?
4 Ezra and deeds of iniquity shall not sleep.
36 And then shall rthe pit of tormentr appear,
sand over against it the place of refreshments;
The furnace of Gehenna shall be made manifest,
and over against it the Paradise of delight.
(and then go down to vs. 43) And its duration shall be as it were a week of years. 44 Such is my Judgement and bits prescribed orderb: to thee only have I showed these things.
I think Ezra and Enoch give us our best looks at what Jews of Jesus time knew of Gehenna. It was a place of judgement and "punishment". I place punishment in quotation because I have not closed the door on the fact that it could be a purification.
The only problem we have with a week of years is the number 7. A week (7 days) is a tricky number in the Bible in that it means completion. I believe the number is symbolic for Gehenna lasting to a fulfillment of God's time. While I admit that could indeed mean forever, the fact that there seems to have wording of an ending indicates to me that Gehenna is indeed temporal. I think it's more likely that Gehenna has a completion as well. Back to the ED vs UR debate on the matter. Are people purified by the process or destroyed by the process? This is where reasoning becomes tricky for me. Because, it makes sense to me that it would be for purification rather than destruction (especially if it's not known as a trash dump). For me, the crematory/trash dump scenerio means destruction...you don't pull something out of the crematory to be purified. Why do I believe that? Well, the price has been paid. Does God need double payment for sin? The blood of Jesus paid the price for ALL of mankind. So, why a need for further punishment unless it had a purpose other than punishment? We have been purchased, bought with a price, sin is paid in full. So, for me if Gehenna is not a quick destruction then why the need for further payment? The answer for me, would be if this wasn't payment...that this was a purification. Why the need to torture and punish before destruction if the payment has been made in full?
Quote from: shawn on August 21, 2010, 04:50:54 PM
You know I agree with you WW especially about Jesus using a reference that the listener would understand. With that said, I don't see anyone calling it a trash dump or crematory.
Until you started this thread I would have said: Everyone says it's a trash dump.
I'm still looking for it but I (vaguely) remember a first hand quote from an historian that wrote that the Roman army burned 1000's of bodies in that valley.
I'll post the quote if I can find it....
QuoteIs it just possible it was a well known spiritual analogy but wasn't not a crematory? I am wondering why they haven't found archeological evidence to support the notion.
If the citizens of Herusalem dumped their junk there for a long period of time it would heaven for archeologists. Surely they would find
some junk something useful for a museum there.
QuoteI have been parroting what I have heard over and over again about Gehenna but it's possible it's not true. I do believe however that Gehenna is the cursed valley. We of course want references at the time of Jesus so the Talmud is out. Enoch does have a reference as well.
Google a bit and about everyone parrots that idea....
QuoteThis cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)
If anyone has the word used to translate forever here that would be greatly appreciated.
That would require a Hebrew version. Olam/Owlam/עוָֹלם
QuoteSo, it's obvious that Gehenna would have been known to the listener as the cursed valley. But what would they have known about it?
Quote from: Jewish TimesI will only quote a
couple of sources from the Sages of Israel:
"Yet was the fire of the Gehenna created on the
eve of the Sabbath? Surely it was taught: Seven
things were created before the world was
created, and these are they: The Torah,
repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, theThrone of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the
Messiah".[18]
Ê
"It was taught: R Meir used to say, Great is
repentance, for on account of an individual who
repents, (does not need to die)[19] the sins of all
the world are forgiven, as it is said: I will heal
their backsliding. I will love them freely, for mine
anger is turned away from him. 'From them' it is
not said, but 'from him."[20] [21]Ê
The above quote implies that Gehenna also had a spiritual meaning...
QuoteI think Ezra and Enoch give us our best looks at what Jews of Jesus time knew of Gehenna. It was a place of judgement and "punishment". I place punishment in quotation because I have not closed the door on the fact that it could be a purification.
Whatever it is/was it's a bad place because Jesus warned about it.
QuoteThe only problem we have with a week of years is the number 7. A week (7 days) is a tricky number in the Bible in that it means completion.
Completion of judgement? But present day Rabbi's speak about 1 year at the very max.....
QuoteI believe the number is symbolic for Gehenna lasting to a fulfillment of God's time. While I admit that could indeed mean forever, the fact that there seems to have wording of an ending indicates to me that Gehenna is indeed temporal.
Gehenna is related to judgement. If judgement ends then Gehenna is of no use anymore.
QuoteI think it's more likely that Gehenna has a completion as well. Back to the ED vs UR debate on the matter. Are people purified by the process or destroyed by the process? This is where reasoning becomes tricky for me. Because, it makes sense to me that it would be for purification rather than destruction (especially if it's not known as a trash dump). For me, the crematory/trash dump scenerio means destruction...you don't pull something out of the crematory to be purified. Why do I believe that? Well, the price has been paid. Does God need double payment for sin? The blood of Jesus paid the price for ALL of mankind.
If so why did Jesus warn about Gehenna? Was that only for the time until He died?
QuoteSo, why a need for further punishment unless it had a purpose other than punishment? We have been purchased, bought with a price, sin is paid in full.
Maybe because of that payment Father overlooks the sins, but still we need to be changed in such a way that we don't sin again. (become saints)????
QuoteSo, for me if Gehenna is not a quick destruction then why the need for further payment? The answer for me, would be if this wasn't payment...that this was a purification. Why the need to torture and punish before destruction if the payment has been made in full?
I agree. But still your wikipedia link bothers me :winkgrin:
I find this thread interesting, but a bit confusing/not altogether clear.
WW, could you or Shawn give us a 3 or 4 point summary of what's being explored here? Sort of a "Gehenna For Dummies"?
Thanks, James.
Basically, it has been assumed by nearly everyone that Gehenna (the cursed valley) was used as a trash dump and crematory. I linked the wikipage that said there was no literature of that time or archeological evidence to support that notion. I wasn't quite able to follow WWs responses in their entirety so I hope he clarifies.
The main reason I believe this to be significant is obviously the connotation Jesus was inferring. I gave a couple verses from before the time of Jesus...Enoch and Ezra supporting Gehenna was associated with judgement and "punishment". By taking the crematory/trash dump out of the picture I actually think it helps support UR. Reason? Because you don't purify anything or anyone in a trash dump or crematory. An object or corpse is placed there for destruction. So, if true that connotation would not be the one Jesus referred to. The main question that is still left in my mind is what did those first century believe Gehenna to be?
Thanks for the summary of your points Shawn.
Tony, if you could briefly summarize your findings and what you think they mean, then maybe we can dig a little more in a pointed direction and consider this further together?
Thanks. :bigGrin:
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
--Mat 23
[the] "damnation"
G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
"of hell"
G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.
Does this somehow also relate to these?--
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22
These are outside the New Jerusalem, [and, therefore, outside the kingdom of heaven,] which corresponds to the actual location of the valley of Hinnom with respect to the Temple and the city.
What is the justice/judgment/condemnation of Gehenna?
31And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.
--Jer 7
I'm not sure Molly, but probably somehow.
These are some varying bits of information I found; I've placed brief(er) summaries at the beginning of each one, as the body of information is a bit longish.
Summary for #1 - One Jewish tradition states that a soul needs a maximum of 11 months for purification.
#1 "Gehenna", is taken from the name of a valley of fire where children were said to be sacrificed as burnt offerings to Baal and Moloch (Semitic deities). Gehenna is a place of intense punishment and cleansing. This place is also known as "She'ol" and other names. This line of Jewish thought argues that after death the soul has to be purified before it can go on the rest of its journey. The amount of time needed for purification depends on how the soul dealt with life. One Jewish tradition states that a soul needs a maximum of 11 months for purification, which is why, when a parent dies, the kaddish (memorial prayer) is recited for 11 months. The concept of Gehenna as a place for temporary purification was the source for the orthodox Christian doctrine of "purgatory."
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/judaism06.html
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Summary for #2 - Jesus deliberately invokes Jeremiah's appalling vision of the dead thrown into the valley of Hinnom during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem... it symbolizes God's devastating judgment on his people
#2 So my argument would be that Jeremiah 7:30-33; 19:1-13 provides the most relevant interpretive context for Jesus' notion of a judgment of gehenna. Just as the words in the temple about making it a 'den of robbers' are intended to recall Jeremiah's warning that God will destroy the temple because of the sin of the people (Jer. 7:8-15), so Jesus deliberately invokes Jeremiah's appalling vision of the dead thrown into the valley of Hinnom during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem. He does so because he believes that Israel is on a path that will sooner or later lead to the military destruction of Jerusalem.
Why is having one's corpse be cast into that valley any more terrible than being unceremoniously cast anywhere else? Something more seems to be going on.
Yes, something more is going on. The point about the corpse being thrown into the valley is that it symbolizes God's devastating judgment on his people. It is not simply death and lack of burial that is at issue here; it is the horror of God's rejection of his people.
Since everybody dies—and in ancient times that was often at a young age—the disaster of AD 70 seems inadequate to explain the severity of Jesus' warnings about avoiding Gehenna—that it is better to pluck out one's eye or cut off one's hand than to be cast into Gehenna (Matt 5:29-30). This is especially so in that most of his audience would be dead before AD 70 some forty years later. http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/1284
---------------------------------------------
Summary for #3 - Jesus warns of the terribleness of Gehenna, but indicates that such is apparently for the purification of the soul, not the destruction of the soul, for everyone shall undergo such purification, salted, seasoned by fire.
#3 Jesus actually indicates that purification was the purpose of Gehenna's fire in Mark 9. Warning of the terribleness of Gehenna, Jesus say that "if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (Gehenna), where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched'" (9:47-48). And Jesus goes on to say that " Everyone will be salted with fire" (9:49). Jesus warns of the terribleness of Gehenna, but indicates that such is apparently for the purification of the soul, not the destruction of the soul, for everyone shall undergo such purification, salted, seasoned by fire.
It reminds me of what Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 3:13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." What is burnt up is that which is worthless. Gehenna would be best theologically interpreted as "Purgatory," and certainly should definately NOT be interpreted as "Hell."
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/christian-universalism-forum/hell-eternal-or-not/10/?PHPSESSID=0c976e6d922a1cbb792636393ba01c62;wap2
-------------------------------
Summary for #4 - To be buried in Hinnom would be disgraceful and knowing this, Jesus says to those listening to him that they should do all they can in this life to avoid ending up in "Gehenna" or the Valley of Hinnom, the local garbage dump of the time. When we understand Jesus' words within the culture and context of 1st century Israel....Jesus used a very "infamous" location that virtually all Jews would know the history of as an allegory... Luke sees no reason to mention it in either his gospel or the Book of Acts. John sees no reason to mention Gehenna in his gospel, in his 3 epistles or the book of Revelation. Peter ignores it in his two epistles and Paul, author of 14 books of the New Testament counting Hebrews, doesn't mention Gehenna even one time. How can that be if all of mankind needs to be warned that they could end up in Gehenna?
#4 The valley of Hinnom is a literal place, a valley bordering Jerusalem. In every case when the translators came across this phrase in the Old Testament, they translated it as the valley of (the son of) Hinnom. Never once is it translated as "hell" in the Old Testament. The valley of Hinnom has a rather unpleasant history. Among other things, some believe that child sacrifice was carried out in this valley.
By the time of Jesus, the valley of Hinnom had become a garbage dump for Jerusalem with fires burning constantly to consume the garbage. However, garbage wasn't the only thing dumped in the valley. It has been suggested that the bodies of those so poor they couldn't afford a proper burial were sometimes dumped in the valley of Hinnom along with the bodies of some executed criminals whose bodies were not claimed by family. There the bodies would be consumed by the burning fires. In essence, to tell someone that their body deserved to end up in the valley of Hinnom meant that you viewed their life to have little meaning or value. You were basically telling them that the value of their life wasn't much more than garbage.
Within Judaism, bodies are treated with great respect and burial places are viewed as holy and sacred locations. Hebron has the Cave of the Patriarchs, the second holiest site to Jews. It is reputed to be the burial place of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca and Leah. They honour Joseph's burial spot in Shechem/Nablus and Rachel's burial spot near Bethlehem as well as the graves of many great rabbis.
To be buried in Hinnom would be disgraceful and knowing this, Jesus says to those listening to him that they should do all they can in this life to avoid ending up in "Gehenna" or the Valley of Hinnom, the local garbage dump of the time. When we understand Jesus' words within the culture and context of 1st century Israel, he isn't telling his listeners that they are going to have to "convert' or "get saved" or they will end up being punished forever in some place of eternal torment called hell. He is telling them that they need to change the way they are living so that at the end of their lives, their lives will have been lived with meaning and significance and will warrant an honourable burial as opposed to those who end up in the valley of Hinnom.
To expand upon this let me ask a question. When we read the word "hell" or the Greek word Gehenna in Matthew and Mark, did Jesus actually say hell or Gehenna? No, he didn't. He wasn't speaking English or Greek. He spoke Hebrew and/or Aramaic so using the Hebrew words, he have said gah-ee Hinnom (the valley of Hinnom) and every one of his audience would have known full well what he was referring to.
Consider the following if all of humanity is destined to end up in Gehenna if they don't get "saved." In 27 books of the New Testament, Gehenna is mentioned in only three, Matthew, Mark and James. In Matthew there are 3 mentions of Gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount. Certainly most of those listening that day were Jewish and very familiar with the Valley of Hinnom which is what Jesus would have said. In Matthew 10 and 18 Jesus uses the term Gehenna in conversations with his 12 Jewish disciples. In Matthew 23 Gehenna is used twice as Jesus chastizes the Jewish scribes and Pharisees. In Mark 9 Gehenna appears 3 times as Jesus again addresses his 12 Jewish disciples. And finally Gehenna appears in James 3:6. To whom was the book of James written to? According to James 1:1 it was written to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, in other words, to the Jews, Jews who would know all about the Valley of Hinnom.
Apparently all of mankind could end up in Gehenna and yet Luke sees no reason to mention it in either his gospel or the Book of Acts. John sees no reason to mention Gehenna in his gospel, in his 3 epistles or the book of Revelation. Peter ignores it in his two epistles and Paul, author of 14 books of the New Testament counting Hebrews, doesn't mention Gehenna even one time. How can that be if all of mankind needs to be warned that they could end up in Gehenna? How do you explain that half of the references to Gehenna occur in private conversations between Jesus and his disciples? Shouldn't Jesus, the disciples, Paul and the Bible as a whole be shouting the warning concerning of Gehenna to the entire world? Shouldn't someone in the book of Acts which is all about evangelization have mentioned Gehenna even one time?
Did we all have to wait for future Latin and English translators to show us the light when it comes to Gehenna?
Or might it be that Jesus used a very "infamous" location that virtually all Jews would know the history of as an allegory to exhort those who heard his teachings to change their lives, to transform their lives into something that would warrant a burial, not in the fires of the garbage dump in the Valley of Hinnom, but in a place that would be respected and honoured? The valley of Hinnom and the story behind it was "Jewish" and this explains why the Greeks had no word for it so they transliterated the name of the valley and got Gehenna. It wasn't some universal place of eternal punishment so trying to tell Gentiles about it or use it as a warning to transform their lives would have been pointless. Hence, Paul never tries to use it.
Let me conclude with a quote from Polybius, a Greek historian who lived from about 203 to 120 B.C. Regarding a place of eternal punishment, he wrote: "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions."
I think Polybius is very wise when it comes the doctrine of eternal punishment. He sees it as a totally man-made belief created to control the people and without question, the doctrine of hell is all of that and more. If you don't belong to our church and believe what we believe you are going to burn in hell for ever! If you are trying to control people, I am not sure it can get any better than that. Just keep pounding into peoples' heads that your group is the one true religion and if they don't accept your beliefs, they are going to burn in hell for ever. It is sheer brilliance. Create the ultimate fear and then announce that you have the antidote. Talk about creating the situation so you can exercise authority, control and power. Make the people sick and then produce the so-called cure. You know, you could make a lot of money doing that even today both in and outside the religious world.
http://dougtrudell.com/html/gehenna.html
Now, as to the OP; I'm finding it hard to find consistent information about what exact beliefs were around the 1st century. And when that info is found, it seems accompanied with a variety of interpretation and IMO, assumptions. :dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on August 22, 2010, 07:25:14 AM
Thanks for the summary of your points Shawn.
Tony, if you could briefly summarize your findings and what you think they mean, then maybe we can dig a little more in a pointed direction and consider this further together?
1] All Christian sites, leaders, commentators regardless of denomination seem to agree it's a trash dump.
2] Shawns site claims there is zero proof for that. I would expect that archeologist would find many things in such an former dump.
3] Some claim this verse is the proof (not for me)
KJV2Ki 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
4] Generally speaking I think every city had a trash dump?
5] All Jewish sites seem to agree Gehenna is of limited duration. But none I could find speaks about a trash dump.
6] The early church fathers seems to agree with the Jews; but they are also silent about the trash dump.
7] At least one Jewish source writes Gehenna was created at the very start or even before Genesis 1:1.
8] I, vaguely, remember the Romans burned the dead after the war in the valley. But that 40 years after Jesus.
9] Go check out the "lost books" about OT and NT archeology hidden somewhere in the utter darkness of my shed :mblush:
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2010, 08:10:45 AM
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
--Mat 23
[the] "damnation"
G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
"of hell"
G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.
Does this somehow also relate to these?--
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22
These are outside the New Jerusalem, [and, therefore, outside the kingdom of heaven,] which corresponds to the actual location of the valley of Hinnom with respect to the Temple and the city.
What is the justice/judgment/condemnation of Gehenna?
31And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.
--Jer 7
Molly, that was a wow moment for me. Why? Because, it never crossed my mind that Jesus could be referring to Gehenna as an actually geographical location. While I believe Jesus had multiple meanings to the reference in mind, I think it's possible he is also talking about people being outside the Holy City in the valley. Food for thought. I really need to process that.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 22, 2010, 01:31:16 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 22, 2010, 07:25:14 AM
Thanks for the summary of your points Shawn.
Tony, if you could briefly summarize your findings and what you think they mean, then maybe we can dig a little more in a pointed direction and consider this further together?
1] All Christian sites, leaders, commentators regardless of denomination seem to agree it's a trash dump.
2] Shawns site claims there is zero proof for that. I would expect that archeologist would find many things in such an former dump.
3] Some claim this verse is the proof (not for me)
KJV2Ki 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
4] Generally speaking I think every city had a trash dump?
5] All Jewish sites seem to agree Gehenna is of limited duration. But none I could find speaks about a trash dump.
6] The early church fathers seems to agree with the Jews; but they are also silent about the trash dump.
7] At least one Jewish source writes Gehenna was created at the very start or even before Genesis 1:1.
8] I, vaguely, remember the Romans burned the dead after the war in the valley. But that 40 years after Jesus.
9] Go check out the "lost books" about OT and NT archeology hidden somewhere in the utter darkness of my shed :mblush:
Per http://www.theopedia.com/Hell
They make it sound like the early church fathers did not agree with UR.
During the time of the early Apostolic Fathers, Christians believed hell would be a place of eternal, conscious punishment. In Ignatius of Antioch's letter To the Ephesians (ca. A.D. 117) we read: "Such a one shall go in his foulness to the unquenchable fire" (16:2). Likewise, in the Epistle to Diognetus (ca. A.D. 138) we read: . . . when you fear the death which is real, which is kept for those that shall be condemned to the everlasting fire, which shall punish up to the end those that were delivered to it. Then you will marvel at those who endure for the sake of righteousness the fire which is for a season (10:7-8). 40 And 2 Clement reads (ca. A.D. 150):
Nothing shall rescue us from eternal punishment, if we neglect his commandments (6:7).
And again:
'...when they see those who have done amiss, and denied Jesus by word or deed, are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire (17:7).
Finally, in the Martyrdom of Polycarp (ca. A.D. 156- 60) we read:
And the fire of their cruel torturers had no heat for them, for they set before their eyes an escape from the fire which is everlasting and is never quenched (2:3).
And again:
You threaten with the fire that burns for a time, and is quickly quenched, for you do not know the fire which awaits the wicked in the judgment to come and in everlasting punishment (11:2).
We have one Father and one Master.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
--Mat 23
The Pharisees and Sadducees have another father.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
So he's calling them sons of the devil and here he calls them 'sons of Gehenna.'
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
--Mat 23
"child"
G5207
υιός
uihos
hwee-os'
Apparently a primary word; a "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.
"of hell"
G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.
What happened to the sons of those evil parents in gehenna? They were burned in the fire--murdered-- by their own fathers.
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
--Mat 23
Not sure where you are going with this Molly. Can you clarify?
Quote from: shawn on August 22, 2010, 07:27:47 PM
Not sure where you are going with this Molly. Can you clarify?
I think Jesus is making a point relative to the church leaders of that time--that they themselves are the sons of Gehenna [preferring the devil to God] and that they therefore father new sons of Gehenna [with their oppression and emphasis on death [the law] rather than on life [Christ]].
In other words, it's a metaphor.
Gehenna being that place outside of the city [the kingdom of heaven] where fathers burned--murdered--their own sons.
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2010, 07:33:11 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 22, 2010, 07:27:47 PM
Not sure where you are going with this Molly. Can you clarify?
I think Jesus is making a point relative to the church leaders of that time--that they themselves are the sons of Gehenna [preferring the devil to God] and that they therefore father new sons of Gehenna [with their oppression and emphasis on death [the law] rather than on life [Christ]].
In other words, it's a metaphor.
Gehenna being that place outside of the city [the kingdom of heaven] where fathers burned--murdered--their own sons.
I like that. More food for thought.
Quote from: shawn on August 22, 2010, 06:36:30 PM
Per http://www.theopedia.com/Hell
They make it sound like the early church fathers did not agree with UR.
It's easy to support everlasting punishment by translation age to everlasting. And not to forget ignore the church fathers always said purifying fire. So either the purifying doesn't work or the pure stay in hell....
Even Augustine wrote most would be saved. Yep, Augustine was less ET than today's ETs
I've seen enough quotes refuting the idea that the church fathers believed in ET. Again I promote reading [ur=http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/The_prevailing_doctrine.html]this page[/url] and this e-book (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/PrevailingUniversalism.pdf). To summarize: the first 400 (500 excluding Augustine) year there wasn't a single church leader supporting ET according to the mentioned book. All believed in punishment in Gehenna. But it was purifying. And ending.
Quote from: Shawn's site"In the last four hundred years before Christ there was extensive discussion among Jewish theologians concerning the Old Testament doctrine of everlasting punishment. Generally speaking, the Pharisees taught that there was everlasting punishment,
Was that why Jesus rebuked theirf teachings?
Quote from: Shawn's sitewhile the school of Hillel thought that the punishment of the ungodly would last only a year before they would be annihilated.
That view is still held by a minority of Jews.
Quote from: Shawn's siteThe latter believed that some of the more wicked would go on being punished for some time. These interpretations of Jewish scholars in the intertestamental period are not decisive as they lack the further revelation of the New Testament. Their conclusions are not backed by Scripture."
Ha! That's means that the NT doesn't support ET (Pharisees) and neither does it support (delayed) ED (Hillel)
QuoteDuring the time of the early Apostolic Fathers, Christians believed hell would be a place of eternal, conscious punishment. In Ignatius of Antioch's letter To the Ephesians (ca. A.D. 117) we read: "Such a one shall go in his foulness to the unquenchable fire" (16:2).
QuoteIgnatius Probably a Destructionist.
It seems on the whole probable that while Ignatius did not dogmatize on human destiny, he
regarded the resurrection as conditional. But here, as elsewhere, the student should remember that the
pernicious doctrine of "reserve" or "oeconomy" continually controlled the minds of the early Christian
teachers, so that they not only withheld their real views of the future, lest ignorant people should take
advantage of God's goodness, but threatened consequences of sin to sinners, in order to supply the
inducements that they thought the masses of people required to deter them from sin. Dr. Ballou thinks
that this father held that the wicked "will not be raised from the dead, but exist hereafter as
incorporeal spirits." He was martyred A.D. 107.
Quote from: Shawn's siteLikewise, in the Epistle to Diognetus (ca. A.D. 138) we read: . . . when you fear the death which is real, which is kept for those that shall be condemned to the everlasting fire, which shall punish up to the end those that were delivered to it. Then you will marvel at those who endure for the sake of righteousness the fire which is for a season (10:7-8). 40 And 2 Clement reads (ca. A.D. 150):
Nothing shall rescue us from eternal punishment, if we neglect his commandments (6:7).
QuoteThe Epistle to Diognetus.--This letter was long ascribed to Justin Martyr, but it is now generally
regarded as anonymous. It was written not far from A.D. 100, perhaps by Marcion, possibly by Justin
Martyr. It is a beautiful composition, full of the most apostolic spirit. It has very little belonging to our
theme, except that at the close of Chapter X it speaks of "those who shall be condemned to the
aionion fire which shall chastise those who are committed to it even unto an end," 11 (mechri telous).
Even if aionion usually meant endless, it is limited here by the word "unto" which has the force of
until, as does aidios in Jude 6,--"aidios chains under darkness, unto (or until) the judgment of the
great day." Such a limited chastisement, it would seem, could only be believed in by one who
regarded God as Diognetus's correspondent did, as one who "still is, was always, and ever will be
kind and good, and free from wrath."
Quote from: Shawn's siteFinally, in the Martyrdom of Polycarp (ca. A.D. 156- 60) we read:
And the fire of their cruel torturers had no heat for them, for they set before their eyes an escape from the fire which is everlasting and is never quenched (2:3).
And again:
You threaten with the fire that burns for a time, and is quickly quenched, for you do not know the fire which awaits the wicked in the judgment to come and in everlasting punishment (11:2).
Quote"The Martyrdom of Polycarp" purports to be a letter from the church of Smyrna reciting the
particulars of his death. But though it is the earliest of the Martyria, it is supposed to have a much
later date than it alleges, and much has been interpolated by its transcribers. Eusebius omits much of
it. It speaks of the fire that is "aionion punishment," and it is probable that the writer gave these terms
the same sense that is given them by the Scriptures, Origen, Gregory and other Universalist writings
and authors.
Quote from: ShawnI like that. More food for thought.
It would have been a terrible indictment of them because they would have known full well what he was accusing them of--sacrificing their 'sons' [followers] to Molech and Ba'al.
[Now mind you, I have come to the conclusion that this is still what is going on in this world. The word 'holocaust,' synonomous with genocide, means 'burnt offering.']
But, you can see why they were always plotting to kill him lol.
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. --Mat 23
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2010, 07:52:22 PM
Quote from: ShawnI like that. More food for thought.
It would have been a terrible indictment of them because they would have known full well what he was accusing them of--sacrificing their 'sons' [followers] to Molech and Ba'al.
[Now mind you, I have come to the conclusion that this is still what is going on in this world. The word 'holocaust,' synonomous with genocide, means 'burnt offering.']
But, you can see why they were always plotting to kill him lol.
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
--Mat 23
Thanks for that read. I'm sure it will be helpful.
It just occured Gehanna (the physical valley) is west of Jerusalem. Father only looks towards the east. So in a way He turned His back on the dump.
Jeremiah 7:32-33 (YLT)
(Jeremiah 7:32) Therefore, lo, days are coming, An affirmation of Jehovah, And it is not said any more, `The Tophet,' And `Valley of the son of Hinnom,' But `Valley of the slaughter,' And they have buried in Tophet--without place.
(Jeremiah 7:33) And the carcase of this people hath been for food To a fowl of the heavens, and to a beast of the earth, And there is none troubling.
Tophet = place of fire.
Jeremiah 19:11 (YLT)
(Jeremiah 19:11) and hast said unto them: Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, Thus do I break this people and this city, as one breaketh the potter's vessel, that is not able to be repaired again, and in Tophet they bury--without place to bury;
------------------
The prophetic determinations of God often involve fire. This is because the sins of Jerusalem in the time of Jeremiah were so great, God said through the prophet that He would bring "unquenchable fires" upon the city,
"But if you will not hearken to Me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched."
Jeremiah 17:27
This was accomplished precisely according to 2 Chronicles 36:19 and Jeremiah 52:13. The fires of judgment burnt down Jerusalem completely. But as soon as the destruction of the city was over, the fires went out. They extinguished themselves back in the 6th century B.C.E. They were "unquenchable" back at that time in the sense that no one was able to put them out until they had performed their prophesied duty.
-------------
Likewise, Isaiah said that in a future time (Isaiah 66:24), the carcasses [dead bodies] of people who rebel against God will be given over to maggots for consumption. These worms will not die until they have consumed the bodies assigned to them. Other dead bodies will be set alight and "neither shall their fire be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24). These fires are prophesied to destroy the bodies of certain wicked people and God will not allow anyone to put out the fires — they are unquenchable. Obviously though, the worms are not immortal and the fires will finally go out of themselves when they have accomplished their tasks.
Needless to say, the fires in the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) were not eternal — they have long ago ceased. I have taken over 600 people on tours to Jerusalem and all of us have walked through Gehenna or driven cars through it. There are no longer any fires there. Indeed, there is a prophecy in Jeremiah that "the whole valley of the dead bodies [Gehenna]" will be made "holy unto the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:40). The prophecy shows that the burning of dead things in the region will permanently stop. Gehenna will even become "holy." This demonstrates that even the symbol of Gehenna as a place where dead bodies and refuse are burnt will cease as a fit type of God's destructive power.
I=the writer of the article who was an archelogist in Jerusalem near 1965
Did this archeologist find proof of trash or mass carcasses in the area?
I know he was a UR believer and he died in ~2000. His site www.askelm.com is still online and maintained by someone that has picked up his work.
Maybe that person knows (email him). I've read quite a few articles on that site and printed books.
While not claiming I've read and remember everything I would say he never said Gehenna was not a trash dump or said he found proof it was a trashdump.
I found this thread when doing some 'research' for nighflight's thread.
Pity this thread died because I think Reply #20 really is worth discussing....
40 And, all the vale of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Kidron torrent–bed, as far as the horse–gate corner on the east, Shall be holy unto Yahweh,––It shall not be rooted up, nor thrown down, any more, unto times age–abiding.
Gehenna will be holy to God.
Gehenna was an area of paganism, later it became either a garbage dump or waste land. But it will become the opposite. Holy. (just like Sodom and the other 4 cities IIRC)
If Gehenna symbolizes endless torture of billions of sinners I would imagine that would be the most unholy place of the whole kingdom.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 14, 2011, 11:45:38 PM
I found this thread when doing some 'research' for nighflight's thread.
Pity this thread died because I think Reply #20 really is worth discussing....
40 And, all the vale of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Kidron torrent–bed, as far as the horse–gate corner on the east, Shall be holy unto Yahweh,––It shall not be rooted up, nor thrown down, any more, unto times age–abiding.
Gehenna will be holy to God.
Gehenna was an area of paganism, later it became either a garbage dump or waste land. But it will become the opposite. Holy. (just like Sodom and the other 4 cities IIRC)
If Gehenna symbolizes endless torture of billions of sinners I would imagine that would be the most unholy place of the whole kingdom.
Yes, I obviously remember this thread. :grin: Me, you, Jab and Molly discussed it but it didn't generate much interest. I thought there was much to glean here. What is actually fairly new to me is the fact that the Bible speaks about Gehenna, Sodom and other unholy cities becoming holy. My Old Testament is weak so this is an area of new learning for me.
But, what is intriguing to me is still interesting even now. I never understood why a trash dump could be a reference to a place of purification. It never seemed like a proper analogy. Being referred to as the cursed valley where unspeakable evils happened makes some sense, but never seemed to correlate with purification to me. But, when you look at Jeremiah 31 and you see restoration things begin to match up with what we believe. Which is the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil.
"the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil"
Amen. Since God will reconcile/restore His whole creation, even those ugly, evil places will be made new. Hallelujah.
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14
Quote from: jabcat on April 15, 2011, 04:31:47 AM
"the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil"
Amen. Since God will reconcile/restore His whole creation, even those ugly, evil places will be made new. Hallelujah.
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14
Amen :thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on April 15, 2011, 12:56:59 AMYes, I obviously remember this thread. :grin:
You 'lil' brainiac :happygrin:
QuoteI thought there was much to glean here.
It may turn out a strong pillar for UR.
QuoteWhat is actually fairly new to me is the fact that the Bible speaks about Gehenna, Sodom and other unholy cities becoming holy. My Old Testament is weak so this is an area of new learning for me.
Ever wondered why there are NT only Bibles but not OT only for Christians.
Many, on this forum and elsewhere, are of the opinion that OT has mostly become obsolete. I don't agree. I think also think that without understanding Jewish culture the Bible can't be truly understood. But sadly when that's discussed 'you' are accused of trying to muddle the waters with the dead letter of the law.
QuoteBut, what is intriguing to me is still interesting even now. I never understood why a trash dump could be a reference to a place of purification. It never seemed like a proper analogy.
Fire converts from a solid state to gassy (spirit) form is the argument of some iirc.
Somewhere on this forum is also something about the worms having a deeper meaning. They are red and stick/protect something. All very vague. To vague for me to even attempt a search on this forum. Maybe someone can help...?
QuoteBeing referred to as the cursed valley where unspeakable evils happened makes some sense, but never seemed to correlate with purification to me.
There is nothing purifying about a trash heap. But Isa speak about the God breathing a massive torrent of sulphuric fire through the valley. Brimstone is almost considered divine...
But, when you look at Jeremiah 31 and you see restoration things begin to match up with what we believe. Which is the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil.
QuoteYes, I obviously remember this thread. Me, you, Jab and Molly discussed it but it didn't generate much interest.
I suggest we all reread the thread and kindle the fire :winkgrin:
Quote from: jabcat on April 15, 2011, 04:31:47 AM
"the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil"
Amen. Since God will reconcile/restore His whole creation, even those ugly, evil places will be made new. Hallelujah.
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14
As waters cover the sea, on the face of it, seems redundant. It begs us to look at the metaphor of the OT. Sea itself is a metaphor of all peoples--that is, humanity. But what of water?
"WATER, as a metaphor""Water," representing truth and knowledge, is probably the most frequently used metaphor in the Old Testament and is very often missed. It shouldn't be, though, when we remember that a vine, metaphorically, meaning the Lord's people, needs spiritual watering and nurturing. Not only is Israel, collectively, considered as the Lords vine, but so is each of his children, individually. It is used hundreds of times in these ways (See Isa. 5:2-7; Psa. 80:8 for examples.). It is a small step to extend this metaphor to include water and light, recognizing that "vines" need "water" and "light" to do well. Even so, it is amazing how often we fail to recognize this use of "water" in the Old Testament, especially when Jesus used it so plainly in the New Testament. Jesus said, "Whosoever drinketh of this water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life" (John 4:14). That water, of course, is his Gospel, which is the knowledge of how to "grow" into "everlasting life." He went on to tell us that he even personifies that water by saying "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink, (John 7:37)." In other words he is saying, If any man thirsts for spiritual knowledge, "I am that water," which means he is the way, the only way to salvation, and is, therefore, the Messiah. (Cf. Rev. 7:15-17--"the Lamb. . .shall lead them unto living fountains of waters.)
Recently the importance of this metaphor was brought back to my attention. After I had studied and written about the meanings of "water" in the scriptures for many years, one day in a Sunday school class the teacher dropped a bomb on me, so to speak. She casually gave the class the definition of the Hebrew word for "prophet" from Smith's Bible Dictionary. What a great thing to learn; and it is unlikely I would have ever made this connection myself because it is doubtful I would have ever looked this up. This simple definition fit in with everything I had learned about this important metaphor. It also gave my testimony of the gospel another big boost. Incidentally, Smith's Bible Dictionary is on the inter-net.
The ordinary Hebrew word for prophet is nabi , derived from a verb signifying "to bubble forth" like a fountain; hence the word means one who announces or pours forth the declarations of God. The English word comes from the Greek prophetes (profetes ), which signifies in classical Greek one who speaks for another , especially one who speaks for a god , and so interprets his will to man; hence its essential meaning is "an interpreter." The use of the word in its modern sense as "one who predicts" is post-classical. The larger sense of interpretation has not, however, been lost. In fact the English word ways been used in a closer sense. (Underlining added)
A quick connection is easy to see when the above words of Jesus are considered, but it has a much greater significance. Because it is so well known you would think we would never miss this metaphor of "water" representing the truth or gospel, but it's easy to do in the Old Testament. Isaiah, alone, speaks of water this way a minimum of thirty-three times. In addition, he refers back to this metaphor using words such as thirst, dry, and drought. When he speaks of the wilderness, meaning a spiritual wilderness, he is still referring to this metaphor because the wilderness (where people live without the Gospel) is a wilderness because of the lack of "water" (spiritual truth). This is made more than clear when he talks about the wilderness becoming flooded with springs and streams and pools of water (Isa. 35:6-7). He is talking about floods of spiritual knowledge coming to them, not just rain. Look for this metaphor constantly; it's everywhere in the Old Testament, even taking on other forms such as ice and snow. In the early chapters of Isaiah (of curses) he takes away their water, making spiritual Israel a desert (3:1,5:13, 19:5-6), and in later chapters (of blessing), their "water" is restored in abundance (35:6-7, 41:18).
The following verse, in a synonymous parallelism, teaches clearly that water is knowledge of God.
Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge;
And the honorable men are famished, and their multitude drieth up with thirst. (Isa. 5:13).
The "honorable men are famished" (hungry and thirsty), meaning they have neither bread nor water--the bread and water represents knowledge. They are "gone into captivity" in two ways: by Assyria, and by Satan, and for the same reason--because of their ignorance of God. Consider these lines from the same chapter: (Isa. 5:6-7)
I will lay it waste, that vineyard.[Israel]
It shall not be pruned, neither digged,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.[wicked]
I will command the clouds that they not rain.
For the vineyard of the LORD is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah, his pleasant plant.
It means that the Lord will withdraw his help or guidance, which is represented by "pruning," "digging," and "watering." And when he does withdraw, the men of Judah become "briers and thorns" instead of his "pleasant plant" (righteous ones). The following verses also use plants (which need water) to represent people. He uses "trees" for the righteous, "thorns and briers" for the wicked: (Isaiah 53:13)
For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace;
The mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing,
And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree,
And instead of the brier, the myrtle tree.
It means Israel "shall go out" of the wicked world with "joy" and "peace," which is salvation. The "mountains and hills" is the Lord's mountain, where all those live who have lifted themselves up and out of the realm of Satan (the deep) by keeping the commandments of God. It is Zion, the pure in heart. They "sing" out of happiness for your salvation. "All the trees" (which are righteous people) "of the field" are also joyous for you. Instead of "thorns and briers," there will be "trees" (the righteous) in Israel.
Because "water" and its other forms are used so frequently, learning to recognize just this metaphor is crucial to understanding the Old Testament. The Book of Job uses water, and the other forms of water, such as rain, hail, snow, and frost, metaphorically many times. Most of the time they are used in synonymous parallelisms so the meaning is more clear. Surely, we know that "meat," as well as "bread" is used often in the scriptures to represent truth, and when paralleled with water, snow, or hail, as in these next verses (Job 36:27-31), we know what is meant.
For he (God) maketh small the drops of water:
They pour down rain according to the vapor thereof;
Which the clouds do drop and distill upon man abundantly.
For by them judgeth he the people; he giveth meat in abundance.
It means God will judge the people by the "rain" which he has poured down. Rain or water can only represent knowledge in these verses. And, it makes sense that a righteous God could only judge his children by the knowledge he has given them. If water or rain isn't God's word, then what will he judge his people by? The metaphor of water is explained further by the better known metaphor of meat, which is spiritual food. Now Job 28:20-25):
Whence then cometh wisdom?
God understandeth the way thereof, and he knoweth the place thereof.
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven:
Whence then cometh wisdom? Is rain wisdom, literally? Clearly, again, water represents knowledge from God, it is only distributed like rain. Wisdom is weighed out by God and distributed like rain. A verse from Isaiah 40:11 and 12, should help with this explanation.
He shall feed his flock like a shepherd:
He shall gather the lambs with his arm,
who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, . . .
Here Isaiah has described a peaceful scene with God protecting, gathering and nurturing his disciples or followers. The "shepherd" will "feed" his flock with the water (his word) that he has measured in the cup of his hand. This suggests Isaiah's concept, "line upon line, precept upon precept" (28:10). God gives men knowledge as they grow and can accept it, just as one would water a plant. Listen to Deut. 32:2: "My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distill as the dew as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass." Perhaps it is this idea that caused God to direct Isaiah to exclaim, "All flesh is grass (40:6)." Not only do we live and then pass on quickly like grass, we also need frequent "watering." Job 38:33-36, suggests how we can increase these "waters" for ourselves.
Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven?
Canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds,
that abundance of waters may cover thee?
Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts?
or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Again, waters and wisdom are used together as if they are synonymous, and they are when you know what is meant. No wonder many people find the Old Testament difficult to read.
Isaiah 25:10,11 uses these symbols in a simile: "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth the bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: so shall my word be that goeth forth from my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
Isaiah 3:1 is another verse that uses bread and water to represent spiritual knowledge of God:
For, behold, the Lord, the Lord of Hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah,
the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water,
This verse does not mean there will be a famine and drought. It means that God is going to "turn away his face" so Israel will not know him or his ways. The verse that follows (3:2) is a synonymous parallelism with this verse, and explains what taking away their water and bread means--how all wisdom and leadership will fail in Israel: [The Lord of Hosts will take away] "The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient, The captain of fifty, and the honorable man, and the counselor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator." This means they will loose all of their spiritual leadership. Isaiah 1:2 explained why, "I (God) have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me." It should be pointed out that this means the Jews had nothing left of the true knowledge of God, even by the time of the exile. They are still in a "drought." (Cf. Amos 8:11,12.)
You might think that far too much time has been spent on this metaphor already, that you understand it; however, this next series of Exodus stories should convince you differently. If we combine what we have learned about "water" to what we have learned about types and similitudes, Israel's exodus forecasts a complete picture of what Israel (the Jews) can look for in their future. A careful review of these "types" in Exodus reveals the signposts that all candidates for "Israel," Jew and Gentile, should look for in their quest of the truth, in these last days.
More at...
http://www.biblesecrets.org/METAPHOR.htm
Quote from: wwMany, on this forum and elsewhere, are of the opinion that OT has mostly become obsolete. I don't agree. I think also think that without understanding Jewish culture the Bible can't be truly understood. But sadly when that's discussed 'you' are accused of trying to muddle the waters with the dead letter of the law.
Unfair! You should know by now that I love the OT, that I see Jesus all over the OT.
I agree with you that we need to understand Jewish culture, [as it pertains to Christ].
Everything Jesus, Paul, and the Apostles taught comes right out of the OT. They didn't change anything--they just revealed it--which you are also very good at, ww. :icon_king:
Cor.10:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant,
how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink:
for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them:
and that Rock was Christ.
In this thread there are numerous quotations from leaders in the prevalent "Christianity" of their time. I have discovered certain things are very important in getting the most out of our use of these sources. It is important to know about the development of Christian belief and practice and where this fits in the period of time in which they lived. Sometimes certain incongruous particulars appear from this knowledge. To know the original language in which they wrote is useful for various reasons. Translators in ancient times would often embellish another's work without notice to the readers. Something we received in Latin, for instance, by recasting into its original Greek may provide some insight. Another point to discover is how old are the documents quoted. How close in time are they to the proposed author? The following excerpt concerning "The Origin of Pastors" from elsewhere on this site may illustrate.
It wasn't until the year 107 that we have historical evidence of one elder being elevated in authority over other believers. On his way to being martyred in Rome Ignatius (b.35-d.107) wrote seven letters. (Since the oldest copy of his letters is from about a thousand years later and their content very much predates such concepts in the contemporaneous culture, we should ask how much of what he said was inserted by others much later.) While we will no doubt enjoy fellowship together one day, he didn't follow the teaching of Jesus and the apostles concerning the church but admitted it was the Roman political structures he sought to copy for strength against his perceived threat of heresy. He taught baptism, the Lord's Supper, marriage, counseling, exhorting and so on and on was to be done only by the Bishop or when He was present. This practice of one overseer (mono episcopacy) took another 50 to 100 years to become the norm. Even so, it must be remembered the bishop was over a city of house churches. To have one pastor over a specific congregation had to wait until the end of the 1500's when Lutherans started calling their priests pastors.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 15, 2011, 07:43:20 AM
Somewhere on this forum is also something about the worms having a deeper meaning. They are red and stick/protect something. All very vague. To vague for me to even attempt a search on this forum. Maybe someone can help...?
Worms eat garbage and turn it into good dirt.
Quote from: ReformerTo have one pastor over a specific congregation had to wait until the end of the 1500's when Lutherans started calling their priests pastors.
One could argue that represents progress. God's priests are to be pastors of the fold [Jesus to Peter: 'feed my sheep']. But, still one must admit that priests are ordained by God, not by men. To get around this problem of men ordaining priests, God appointed one tribe to handle the priesthood in the OT, the Levites.
But in the NT, we have transitioned to the Melchizedek priesthood, based not on birth, or identification as men, but on an eternal life through Christ.
Just because we talk on this board as a group of priests amongst ourselves does not mean that there are not still sheep who need to be fed, even ourselves... :icon_flower:
Quote from: reFORMer on April 15, 2011, 08:26:39 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 15, 2011, 07:43:20 AM
Somewhere on this forum is also something about the worms having a deeper meaning. They are red and stick/protect something. All very vague. To vague for me to even attempt a search on this forum. Maybe someone can help...?
Worms eat garbage and turn it into good dirt.
That's true. But not what I mean. The worms are of a special type they are red/crimson or their slime is.
Dunno if it's relevant to this thread. My memory of it is to vague.
Found a post by RoseRed
seems two types of worm [man is comparable to a worm in a few scriptures] one where they breed/ multiply in corruption / decay /death
the other is pretty interesting the scarlet stuff
If the Fire is comparable to God being the consuming Fire and and the firey trials we do go though in this life [each one different times and different ways as always been , will be and will continue ] , it very well makes good sense
Exd 16:24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. Strong's H7415 - rimmah worm bread by purification 1) maggot, worm (as cause and sign of decay)
From רָמַם (H7426) in the sense of breeding [compare רוּם (H7311)] 2) (Qal) to be rotten, be wormy a) (Qal) to be exalted
Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou [art] my father: to the worm, [Thou art] my mother, and my sister.
Job 24:20 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm? and the son of man, [which is] a worm?
1) worm, scarlet stuff, crimson
a) worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'
b) scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet
1) the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"
2) worm, maggot
a) worm, grub
b) the worm "coccus ilicis"When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)
Psa 22:6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, [and] ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 51:8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Jon 4:7 But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Strong's G4663 - skōlēx 1) a worm, spec. that kind which preys upon dead bodies
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9
Jesus went on to say, "I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power!"
The Transfiguration
2 Six days later Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up a high mountain to be alone. As the men watched, Jesus' appearance was transformed, 3 and his clothes became dazzling white, far whiter than any earthly bleach could ever make them. 4 Then Elijah and Moses appeared and began talking with Jesus.
5 Peter exclaimed, "Rabbi, it's wonderful for us to be here! Let's make three shelters as memorialsa]—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." 6 He said this because he didn't really know what else to say, for they were all terrified.
7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my dearly loved Son. Listen to him." 8 Suddenly, when they looked around, Moses and Elijah were gone, and they saw only Jesus with them.
9 As they went back down the mountain, he told them not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Manb] had risen from the dead. 10 So they kept it to themselves, but they often asked each other what he meant by "rising from the dead."
11 Then they asked him, "Why do the teachers of religious law insist that Elijah must return before the Messiah comes?c]"
12 Jesus responded, "Elijah is indeed coming first to get everything ready. Yet why do the Scriptures say that the Son of Man must suffer greatly and be treated with utter contempt? 13 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they chose to abuse him, just as the Scriptures predicted."
Jesus Heals a Demon-Possessed Boy
14 When they returned to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd surrounding them, and some teachers of religious law were arguing with them. 15 When the crowd saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with awe, and they ran to greet him.
16 "What is all this arguing about?" Jesus asked.
17 One of the men in the crowd spoke up and said, "Teacher, I brought my son so you could heal him. He is possessed by an evil spirit that won't let him talk. 18 And whenever this spirit seizes him, it throws him violently to the ground. Then he foams at the mouth and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid.d] So I asked your disciples to cast out the evil spirit, but they couldn't do it."
19 Jesus said to them,e] "You faithless people! How long must I be with you? How long must I put up with you? Bring the boy to me."
20 So they brought the boy. But when the evil spirit saw Jesus, it threw the child into a violent convulsion, and he fell to the ground, writhing and foaming at the mouth.
21 "How long has this been happening?" Jesus asked the boy's father.
He replied, "Since he was a little boy. 22 The spirit often throws him into the fire or into water, trying to kill him. Have mercy on us and help us, if you can."
23 "What do you mean, 'If I can'?" Jesus asked. "Anything is possible if a person believes."
24 The father instantly cried out, "I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief!"
25 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evilf] spirit. "Listen, you spirit that makes this boy unable to hear and speak," he said. "I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!"
26 Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd as people said, "He's dead." 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up.
28 Afterward, when Jesus was alone in the house with his disciples, they asked him, "Why couldn't we cast out that evil spirit?"
29 Jesus replied, "This kind can be cast out only by prayer.g]"
Jesus Again Predicts His Death
30 Leaving that region, they traveled through Galilee. Jesus didn't want anyone to know he was there, 31 for he wanted to spend more time with his disciples and teach them. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of his enemies. He will be killed, but three days later he will rise from the dead." 32 They didn't understand what he was saying, however, and they were afraid to ask him what he meant.
The Greatest in the Kingdom
33 After they arrived at Capernaum and settled in a house, Jesus asked his disciples, "What were you discussing out on the road?" 34 But they didn't answer, because they had been arguing about which of them was the greatest. 35 He sat down, called the twelve disciples over to him, and said, "Whoever wants to be first must take last place and be the servant of everyone else."
36 Then he put a little child among them. Taking the child in his arms, he said to them, 37 "Anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalfh] welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes not only me but also my Father who sent me."
Using the Name of Jesus
38 John said to Jesus, "Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he wasn't in our group."
39 "Don't stop him!" Jesus said. "No one who performs a miracle in my name will soon be able to speak evil of me. 40 Anyone who is not against us is for us. 41 If anyone gives you even a cup of water because you belong to the Messiah, I tell you the truth, that person will surely be rewarded.
42 "But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone hung around your neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of helli] with two hands.j] 45 If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one foot than to be thrown into hell with two feet.k] 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It's better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 'where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.'l]
49 "For everyone will be tested with fire.m] 50 Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? You must have the qualities of salt among yourselves and live in peace with each other."
Footnotes:
Mark 9:5 Greek three tabernacles.
Mark 9:9 "Son of Man" is a title Jesus used for himself.
Mark 9:11 Greek that Elijah must come first?
Mark 9:18 Or becomes weak.
Mark 9:19 Or said to his disciples.
Mark 9:25 Greek unclean.
Mark 9:29 Some manuscripts read by prayer and fasting.
Mark 9:37 Greek in my name.
Mark 9:43 Greek Gehenna; also in 9:45, 47.
Mark 9:43 Some manuscripts add verse 44, 'where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.' See 9:48.
Mark 9:45 Some manuscripts add verse 46, 'where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.' See 9:48.
Mark 9:48 Isa 66:24.
Mark 9:49 Greek salted with fire; other manuscripts add and every sacrifice will be salted with salt.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 15, 2011, 08:39:47 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on April 15, 2011, 08:26:39 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 15, 2011, 07:43:20 AM
Somewhere on this forum is also something about the worms having a deeper meaning. They are red and stick/protect something. All very vague. To vague for me to even attempt a search on this forum. Maybe someone can help...?
Worms eat garbage and turn it into good dirt.
That's true. But not what I mean. The worms are of a special type they are red/crimson or their slime is.
Dunno if it's relevant to this thread. My memory of it is to vague.
The word "worm," as used by Bildad [Book of Job] and the Psalmist, is the Hebrew word towla' to -law' and (fem) towle'ah to-lay-aw'. The word occurs 43 times in our Bible and it is translated scarlet 34 times, worm 8 times, and crimson 1 time.
Pause for a moment and think of how often the word scarlet is associated with the Tabernacle, the Temple and the priestly garments. In each instance, the word is exactly the same that is translated worm in Ps. 22:6 and Job 25:6. Why would a color be associated with a worm?
The answer is simple, the towle'ah worm is also known as the coccus ilicis - the female scarlet worm. This unusual worm was designed by our Heavenly Father to securely and permanently attach her body to the trunk of a tree when she was ready to give birth to her young. Her deposited eggs would remain under her body until they hatched, then to continue their independent life cycles. However, the mother would die, staining both her body and the surrounding wood scarlet. Commercial scarlet dyes were derived from the dead bodies of the female scarlet worms. Likewise, Christ the Son of Man shed His "Precious Blood" (1 Peter 1:19) and sacrificed His Life for us. "Who His Own Self bare our sins in His Own Body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto Righteousness: by Whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Peter 2:24).
http://www.biblicalexaminer.org/Unpublished/Worms.html
Quote from Taffy:
Mar 9:42
the worm that dieth not, a C and P made to WW sometime back
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)
Two types
A maggot and a Worm...
towla
When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)
Maggots eat only the flesh of the DEAD,then eventually it CHANGES into a fly....IT DOESNT DIE.
The transformation of moving from Death to LIFE as is the Resurrection unto LIFE
Metamorphosis.
14Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
15Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.
16Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.
17When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.
18I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
19I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the acacia tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:
20That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
--Isa 41
Mark 9:44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
Note: This verse is not in Rotherham.
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)
The question is what type of worm is there in Gehenna?
The worm from Mark 9:44
σκώληξ
skōlēx
Thayer Definition:
1) a worm, spec. that kind which preys upon dead bodies
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: of uncertain derivation
Citing in TDNT: 7:452, 1054
Greek LXX version of Job
Not very sure because the verse numbering is different and the verse only mentions 1 worm. (and rottingness which perhaps is the maggot?
The skōlēx
So the Gehenna worm is the type Job compared with Jesus.
REPENTANCE AS A LIFESTYLE
|
The closest word we have in English to the meaning of the Greek word metanoia—as used in the original scriptural text—is "metamorphosis," or the life cycle of change as seen when the caterpillar becomes a butterfly. If we look closely at the concept of metamorphosis we might find insight into the process of metanoia, and the importance of repentance in our lives.
metanoia=repentance
Metanoia as Metamorphosis
The Enabling.
The Monarch butterfly starts life as a little egg clinging to a milkweed leaf. The egg hatches only a few days after being laid and the larva that emerges from the egg becomes the first stage of the butterfly's life. At that point the larva is only one twenty-fifth of an inch long. Its first meal consists of its own egg casing. But from then on, the caterpillar eats only milkweed. Through this exclusive meal, the caterpillar develops a natural defense system against the toxicity of the milkweed which is poisonous to birds—the Monarch butterflies' natural predator.
The caterpillar eats nonstop for three days, and then begins to molt for the next three weeks. During this time he adds colorful stripes. Two more weeks of nonstop eating follows. At this point, the caterpillar is two inches long and 2,700 times its original weight. If a 6 pound baby grew as fast as a Monarch caterpillar, it would weigh eight tons in twelve days. After its varocious eating spree, the caterpillar then begins to climb until it finds the right place for its cocoon.
The Equipping.
Once it finds a suitable place, it produces silk and weaves a small button that it firmly attaches to a twig. Near the caterpillars rear legs is a small hook-shaped apendage called a cremaster which the caterpillar hooks into the silk button and gently hangs from the twig forming a "J" shaped silhouette. The caterpillar molts for one last time and its stripes turn into a milky green sheath called a chrysalis. As the chrysalis hardens into a green case, gold dots appear. Depending on the air temperature, in a little less than fifteen days the case turns transparent and the Monarch butterflies' golden wings show through.
Soon the chrysalis shakes and splits and the Monarch butterfly emerges. At first, the Monarch is wet, crumpled and looks exhausted and vulnerable. The Monarch begins transferring fluid from its plump stomach to the veins in its wings. The butterfly must hang vertically and allow its wings to fully expand and dry before it can fly. If the butterfly flew off immediately, it would starve because its proboscis or feeding tube is disconnected and must also spring into place. Once in place, the proboscis supplies the butterfly with nectar and water. When not in use, it coils up under the Monarchs head, like a watch spring. Soon, the velvety wings become smooth and dry and the Monarch caterpillar has successfully changed into a Monarch butterfly and the "metamorphosis" is complete.
The process of metamorphosis is both enabling and equipping.
http://www.metanoiaministries.org/Metamorphosis.html
QuoteThe closest word we have in English to the meaning of the Greek word metanoia—as used in the original scriptural text—is "metamorphosis," or the life cycle of change as seen when the caterpillar becomes a butterfly. If we look closely at the concept of metamorphosis we might find insight into the process of metanoia, and the importance of repentance in our lives.
metanoia=repentance
Metanoia as Metamorphosis
:icon_flower:Hi Molly
the change from a Maggot to a fly may not be the exact type of metamorphisis as pictured by the caterpillar and Butterfly [ who lives for but a """DAY"""] :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on April 15, 2011, 11:01:51 AM
The closest word we have in English to the meaning of the Greek word metanoia—as used in the original scriptural text—is "metamorphosis,"
What about Transformers - maggots in disguise :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 15, 2011, 12:51:23 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 15, 2011, 11:01:51 AM
The closest word we have in English to the meaning of the Greek word metanoia—as used in the original scriptural text—is "metamorphosis,"
What about Transformers - maggots in disguise :laughing7:
:icon_flower:
Quote"the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil"
Amen. Since God will reconcile/restore His whole creation, even those ugly, evil places will be made new. Hallelujah.
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14
As waters cover the sea, on the face of it, seems redundant. It begs us to look at the metaphor of the OT. Sea itself is a metaphor of all peoples--that is, humanity. But what of water?
For mine the "WATERS which COVERS the sea "are the HEAVENS ABOVE being LIGHTof Knowledge of HIM being the NC- the sea Beneath are the LIVING dead[likened to the OC]- HE covers the SIN within the SEA beneath
Mic 7:19
He will turn again, he will have
compassion upon us; he will
subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their
sins into the depths of the sea. Isa 57:20 But the wicked[ are the dead to HIM] [are] like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
ISNT Jonah a Christ Type too? Jon 1:12 And he said unto them, Take me up, and
cast me forth into the sea; so shall the
sea be calm unto you: for
I know that for my sake this great tempest [is] upon you. Jonah too was SLEEPING in the Boat-- sounds very much like the ship IN acts WHERE Christ to was asleep- :icon_flower:
In revelation it Notes the""SEA"""give up their dead? Isnt it the POWER of the Cross which RAISES the DEAD? AND HADES too being cast into the LAKE of FIRE---Its the Cross for mine Guys--- also theres much to be said about the SHIPS which sail in the SEA----- :icon_flower:
From a conscious standpoint (not that caterpillars are conscious) the only thing the caterpillar needs to do is feed (on the manna) and go to the place to latch on to (the vine). The caterpillar doesn't tell itself to molt, or to create the chrysalis, nor breathe for that matter. That is innately built in by the breath of life. The desire for the Word and the directions to the place for the metanoia are given by Him too. Its not like you wake up in the morning and say I need to breathe today, I need to get my digestive enzymes flowing. We just need to go the kitchen and get some breakfast :dsunny:
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 15, 2011, 01:55:31 PM
From a conscious standpoint (not that caterpillars are conscious) the only thing the caterpillar needs to do is feed (on the manna) and go to the place to latch on to (the vine). The caterpillar doesn't tell itself to molt, or to create the chrysalis, nor breathe for that matter. That is innately built in by the breath of life. The desire for the Word and the directions to the place for the metanoia are given by Him too. Its not like you wake up in the morning and say I need to breathe today, I need to get my digestive enzymes flowing. We just need to go the kitchen and get some breakfast :dsunny:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: shawn on August 21, 2010, 04:50:54 PM
This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)
If anyone has the word used to translate forever here that would be greatly appreciated.
Anyone with a Hebrew or Greek version of Enoch?
Hate to keep kicking the same horse here . . .but wasn't that what God did with Lot? Didn't he extend to him righteous judgment??? Destroyed the wickedness forever . . . not the one aflicted by it.
Quote from: Nathan on April 16, 2011, 12:06:08 AM
Hate to keep kicking the same horse here . . .but wasn't that what God did with Lot? Didn't he extend to him righteous judgment??? Destroyed the wickedness forever . . . not the one aflicted by it.
True Judgment meaning Mercy and Compassion given through the Judgment HE BORE for US :HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 15, 2011, 11:55:16 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 21, 2010, 04:50:54 PM
This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)
If anyone has the word used to translate forever here that would be greatly appreciated.
Anyone with a Hebrew or Greek version of Enoch?
Still no luck but I know there are Greek, Hebrew, Armiac and Ethiopian translations.
But, Shawn, perhaps you should have quoted one more verse.
4 In the days of judgment over the former, they shall bless Him for the mercy in accordance with 5 which He has assigned them (their lot).' Then I blessed the Lord of Glory and set forth His glory and lauded Him gloriously.
Do you think those in a eternal hell will bless His mercy?
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 16, 2011, 12:26:50 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 15, 2011, 11:55:16 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 21, 2010, 04:50:54 PM
This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)
If anyone has the word used to translate forever here that would be greatly appreciated.
Anyone with a Hebrew or Greek version of Enoch?
Still no luck but I know there are Greek, Hebrew, Armiac and Ethiopian translations.
But, Shawn, perhaps you should have quoted one more verse.
4 In the days of judgment over the former, they shall bless Him for the mercy in accordance with 5 which He has assigned them (their lot).' Then I blessed the Lord of Glory and set forth His glory and lauded Him gloriously.
Do you think those in a eternal hell will bless His mercy?
Good point.
1Co 3:13-17 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Joh 15:5-6 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Luk 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Luk 3:16-17 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: (17) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Rev 1:14-16 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; (15) And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. (16) And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Heb 4:12-13 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (13) Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
IMO The fire of God is within the Spirit of prophecy that pierces to he dividing asunder of soul and spirit... making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. It is clear in 1 Corinthians 3 that this is redemptive in nature, and that some Christians will endure also. Jesus indicates this as well, for who will say "Lord, Lord, etc., etc." but Christians. Whether Gehenna was a garbage dump or not is in my opinion immaterial, except for the fact that we should be sure that we have proper authority before we speak as if we know..... I think it is an interesting point and I am going to start studying it out :o)
Mar 9:43 `And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire--the unquenchable--
This experience burns. Our God is a consuming fire. he will avenge Himself upon His enemies until every knee bows and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. The aspect of garbage may be colloqial or euphemistic, but it fits. You will not get out until you pay the last penny. That last penny is "truth in the inward parts" after the Light of Day prevails as a consuming fire over the darkness within which we hide until the last enemy, "death and the grave" is consumed- because it has no more purpose. Then God will be all in all, for from Him and to Him and through Him are all things.
Crammed this in before leaving for work. Forgive the brevity and directness, I will edit it later :o)
A good book that I would recommend that contributes well to today's post is Bradley Jersak's "Her Gates Will Never Be Shut: Hope, Hell, and the New Jeruslaem" (Wipf and Stock, 2009). Brad makes a good case for the idea that by the time of Jesus two Gehenna traditions had developed – both of which trace back to the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom.
1. The Apocalyptic-Infernalist Tradition: Enoch > Talmud > Church
This tradition uses historic Hinnom as a metaphor for a literal place of punishment in the afterlife. It can be punitive or purgative, permanent or temporary, annihilation or torment.
2. The Historic-Prophetic Tradition: Jeremiah > Jesus
Jesus' use of Gehenna intentionally references Jeremiah's prophetic use of HInnom to represent literal destruction. He recalls the fall of Jerusalem in 587 BCE as a warning of the impending fall of Jerusalem to Rome in 70 CE.
Btw, there is also a nice afterword in Brad's book by Professor Nik Ansell on hell.
Comment by Adam — January 5, 2010 @ 9:54 am
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 03, 2011, 12:49:14 PM
A good book that I would recommend that contributes well to today's post is Bradley Jersak's "Her Gates Will Never Be Shut: Hope, Hell, and the New Jeruslaem" (Wipf and Stock, 2009). Brad makes a good case for the idea that by the time of Jesus two Gehenna traditions had developed – both of which trace back to the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom.
1. The Apocalyptic-Infernalist Tradition: Enoch > Talmud > Church
This tradition uses historic Hinnom as a metaphor for a literal place of punishment in the afterlife. It can be punitive or purgative, permanent or temporary, annihilation or torment.
2. The Historic-Prophetic Tradition: Jeremiah > Jesus
Jesus' use of Gehenna intentionally references Jeremiah's prophetic use of HInnom to represent literal destruction. He recalls the fall of Jerusalem in 587 BCE as a warning of the impending fall of Jerusalem to Rome in 70 CE.
I think he is right in saying that Jesus would have based his words of the prophecies of Jeremiah about
Gehenna, rather than the Jewish traditions, but IMO, he may have missed some things that could be important, in his discussion. I have looked at the chapter on
Gehenna in his book at Amazon.com, where a few pages were missing, but the sections of his book that I saw made no reference to the statements in the following verses in Jeremiah, about the burning of children in the fire as offerings to Baal, and that doing such a thing had "never come into God's mind."
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Since humans are God's creation, the idea that God would bring children into the world, only to have them burned in the fire, has not come into his mind, seems to preclude the traditional views of hell, and the traditional interpretations of
Gehenna, that identify it with hell, which I think derives the reverse of the intended meaning from Jeremiah's words.
Jersak refers to Bishop N. T. Wright and W. Balfour, who support the 70 AD interpretation of the sayings of Jesus about
Gehenna in the New Testament, but he did not show how the things Jesus said of
Gehenna could actually apply to the Jews as a nation. How could the Jews as a nation pluck out their eye? or cut off their right hand? or a foot? That sound ridiculous when applied to the Jews as a nation. Neither Wright nor Balfour address this.
Also, when Jesus spoke of calling one's brother a "fool" or "Raka," how could it apply to them as a nation? Who is their "brother?" Unless its advocates can address these questions, the idea that Jesus was referring to events that occurred in 70 AD when he mentioned
Gehenna simply makes no sense, as I have pointed out in previous posts, such as this one (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/judgement_and_punishment/myth_gehenna_9540.msg120271.html#msg120271), or this one (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/judgement_and_punishment/myth_gehenna_9540.msg120458.html#msg120458), or this one (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/judgement_and_punishment/myth_gehenna_9540.msg120475.html#msg120475), or this one (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/judgement_and_punishment/myth_gehenna_9540.msg120522.html#msg120522).
The threat of
Gehenna was addressed to the disciples, and to the scribes and Pharisees, who had heard the preaching of Jesus. The location of
Gehenna, immediately outside the walls of Jerusalem, suggests its meaning is to be found in connection with Jerusalem as the holy city of the saints, the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one. The ones threatened with
Gehenna were in danger of being rejected from God's kingdom. That is what it represents, and that is what Bishop N. T. Wright and W. Balfour missed.
Since one has to be in Jerusalem to be cast out of it,
Gehenna is not a threat to those who were never called, or to those who never heard the gospel preached. It is a warning that applies to Christians, mainly, and to those who have heard the gospel.
Doug
The Bishop, the Ghost, and Gehenna (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/the-bishop-the-ghost-and-gehenna/)
But God has already destroyed his children via fire in the old testament. It is the same God. Many unbelivers can see this in the bible.
This has been a tough issue for Christians to explain how a loving God could destroy his creation, but I think I have the answer, in a revelation that God gave me. Partly that God created evil to punish evil doers, so any evil actions he takes is rightoeus. But any evil actions an unrightoeus does is evil. This is hypocrital of God, but key to understanding the ways of God. A bit like how as adults we are hypocritical to children because we do things that they cannot do. We are able to do these things because we are wiser and more experienced than the child.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on May 04, 2011, 08:44:13 PM
But God has already destroyed his children via fire in the old testament. It is the same God. Many unbelivers can see this in the bible.
This has been a tough issue for Christians to explain how a loving God could destroy his creation, but I think I have the answer, in a revelation that God gave me. Partly that God created evil to punish evil doers, so any evil actions he takes is rightoeus. But any evil actions an unrightoeus does is evil. This is hypocrital of God, but key to understanding the ways of God. A bit like how as adults we are hypocritical to children because we do things that they cannot do. We are able to do these things because we are wiser and more experienced than the child.
:2c:
I think I would seriously question the source of a "revelation" that suggests God is a hypocrite!
Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Doug
Walter Balfour's discussion of Gehenna (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/walter-balfours-discussion-of-gehenna/)
Comments on Walter Balfour's interpretation of Gehenna (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/09/comments-on-walter-balfours-interpretation-of-gehenna/)
Only hypocritical from a human standpoint, who does not understand the ways of God.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on May 04, 2011, 08:44:13 PM
But God has already destroyed his children via fire in the old testament. It is the same God. Many unbelivers can see this in the bible.
This has been a tough issue for Christians to explain how a loving God could destroy his creation, but I think I have the answer, in a revelation that God gave me. Partly that God created evil to punish evil doers, so any evil actions he takes is rightoeus. But any evil actions an unrightoeus does is evil. This is hypocrital of God, but key to understanding the ways of God. A bit like how as adults we are hypocritical to children because we do things that they cannot do. We are able to do these things because we are wiser and more experienced than the child.
:2c:
"Partly that God created evil to punish evil doers...." what a silly(Iwaned to say worse)thing to say. God ceated evil to bring mankind His creation, to completness. To even give thought that God could have an evil vibration shows a lack of knowing how great God is. God created evil, but it is mankind that uses it for grief, and thus we learn. This is all being revealed since the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
remedial punishment or chastisement -->completeness
Quote from: thinktank on May 04, 2011, 09:50:48 PM
Only hypocritical from a human standpoint, who does not understand the ways of God.
:2c:
Like how God gave them commands that were not good for them. Telling the Israelites to fashion graven images that were clearly forbidden in the 10 commandments.
I admit my post was incomplete and missing some key ingridients to balance it.
The evil that God created is used to punish those who do evil. So I am not saying that God created the devil or created Hitler etc.
But I am saying that God used and created evil to destroy, man in a flood during Noahs time.
He used evil to destroy Sodom and Gomorah
He used evil to threaten Israel by the sword of a mighty angel
He used evil to swallow up Israelites in the wilderness by the Earth
He sent king David to kill and destroy the enemies of Israel and to wipe out the giants of old
He sent some angel to kill Annias in the church for they lied to the holy ghost
So you see God uses evil to teach mankind a lesson. So not so silly Micah, you even agree that God created evil and have preached it.
But if you deny that God does not do any evil whatosever, then perhaps you'd like to explain the flood of Noah, Sodom and Gomorah, Pauls thorn, Jobs quote "The lord giveth the Lord taketh", "Hurt in the lake of fire" "Chastized with many striped" "Whosever God son he loves he chastizes"
God is no stranger to doing evil, but only does it out of His perect rightoeus will and according to Genesis, doing evil such as the flood is a strange thing for God, so he did not created evil as ying and yang balance, but only to show it's face when needed to execute rightoeus judgment. So any human who does evil outside of Gods will is being sinfull but if doing evil inside of Gods will, e.g King David killing the armies, then not sinfull. But in todays world, I would not use this as advice, as there are some crazy people about, who think they do Gods will. But simply to show that king David did not sin when killing those enemies.
:2c:
What if it's not God doing evil, but it's the consequences of men's choices that brings evil upon themselves.
Yes. I don't think God is quick to judge. I think that these judgments were carefylly crafted by God. His grace and mercy is long enduring. But we as readers of the bible text have only a snapshot idea of the conditions of Noah's time period, Sodoms time period etc. Perhaps if we got transported to that time period, we would be absolutely shocked at the depravity and cry out and beg for God to do something about this. Also the population in those towns would not be that great. Sodom city was so small that the men recognized where Lot lived and knew that there were 2 men there.
If anything, its just probably some biased record written by someone who believed that Hell was Eternal Torment, and Gehenna was the same place. Plus wiki is not the best source for accurate historical scholarly work.