The two witnesses are: Israel and the church

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: But again, God's day is a thousand years, so only 2 days have "passed", which would be "shortly". The things have come to pass, are coming to pass, and will come to pass until He be all in all. My  :2c: Blessings...

Card, that sounds fine at first . .but the issue I have with it was in Daniel, it was clear that the events Daniel saw were not to happen in his day and he was told as much.  And he was also told to seal what he saw.  The first thing you see in Revelation are the seven seals . . .Daniel was told to seal it, John saw the seals being opened by Christ in the spirit, Jesus opened them in the flesh when we referred to Daniel's prophecy in Matthew 24.

Which tells me that because only 600 years or so had passed from when Daniel recorded what he saw to when Jesus revisited it.  600 years . .that's less than a day, and yet the records were to be sealed.  Yet when John saw the same things, he was told specifically "not" to seal them.

So if Daniel was told to seal them and it was only for 600 years, how could John be told to leave them open if it wasn't going to unfold for another 2000?

Well, for me, it's because, John said he was IN THE TEMPLE, IN THE SPIRIT on the LORD'S DAY = the 7th day. Do you realize that in the Lord's day THEY are ALL in Christ, IN US, just as it said in places in OT that someone's "seed" was in their LOINS.

He wasn't talking about just a natural concept in that, either. Our loins are the reproductive part of us, the mind/womb, which now in ever increasing fullness, is the mind of Christ, which is Spirit, and our 7th day SEED. This is why when He comes, He comes with 10,000's of His saints, and why the priests CONSUME the shewbread, which is as the 12 tribes natures and experiences being birthed in us through Christ.

Ever "feel" and identify with a character in there so much, you "feel" like you know them? Through Christ, we do; we are permitted to eat of the Christ nature that was attained by them, which is what the unleavened shewbread represented. The "angel" talking to John, I believe was Daniel. He said he was of John's fellow servants, the prophets.

And because Christ has been progressively revealed from generation to generation, His "appearing" in measure has been going on continuously. Yes, what Daniel saw, some of it happened in his day, but the spiritual aspects of what it means to each generation has been happening continually, each man in his order and according to the measure alloted by the Lord, throughout time.So in this way, the literal in no way prevents the spiritual from continually being revealed.

I got into trouble earlier this week when I inadvertantly got tangled up with seeing things literally and seeing things spiritually without realizing there is a defining line between the two perspectives.  It feels like many try to do the same things in Revelation by reapplying the natural part of it a second time.  There is no indication, by the way, that these things are reapplied from "age to age".

They were already fulfilled long before we came along.  It culminated 40 years after the cross due to the fact that "that's" what the religious leaders called upon themselves when they were given the chance to let their sin be taken from them by the blood of Christ.

Matt. 27
24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"  25All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"  26Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

That's why it was 40 years, they called the curse of sin to come upon themselves and odly enough, they cursed their kids as well.  A generation is considered to be 40 years.  And so at the end of that generation, what they iniated at the crucifixion, became fulfilled.  The judgment that was upon them, that could have passed from them and released at the cross, instead was brought to an accountability to the entire nation as the whole nation of Israel's identity was deeply rooted in the very law that no longer had effect.

Don't "worry" about getting in trouble for spiritualizing. That is making the Word PERSONAL to US, so the letter can be fulfilled in us, just as it was in Jesus. If He hadn't known that Word was personal and was led of the Spirit to fulfill it spiritually within FIRST, He could not have walked it out in the natural in faith KNOWING it was written to Him and about Him.

Without faith it is impossible to please Him (Father) and the Lord's faith was in believing that what was written, was to Him and about Him, and that His Father would respond accordingly. He was made a son by the things that He sufferd has nothing to do with the external cross. If He had not already been made a son by then, He would have never resurrected.  

I can write more on this to explain it, but the law STILL runs side by side with grace, so the generational curses are still in effect, and not just for those of natural Israel. Israel was made to be one with the Head in their day, and the rest of mankind was the body, just as the spiritual priesthood has been made to be one with the Head since day 5, and the rest of mankind (including the Jews) are the body/outer court realm today.


As the temple worship went, so went the nation.

[Nathan]

Cardinal states
Yes, what Daniel saw, some of it happened in his day, but the spiritual aspects of what it means to each generation has been happening continually, each man in his order and according to the measure alloted by the Lord, throughout time.So in this way, the literal in no way prevents the spiritual from continually being revealed

Perhaps we're just misunderstanding each other here because I totally beleive "spiritually" these things are unfolding.  I believe Christ has been, is now and continually will be going to manifest in flesh, but for me, the flesh is not the same flesh he was in as an individual 2,000 years ago, but it's going to be in the generation of people living in this realm that he manifests through.  It's going to be the flesh that the spirit has been poured out upon.  a corporate body in the flesh manifesting the resurrectio of Christ in the spirit. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, evidently we are, because I agree with what you just said..... :thumbsup:

[Doug]

In Revelation 11, the beast makes war with the two witnesses.

Revelation 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

In Revelation 12, the angels of Michael war against the dragon.

Revelation 12:7-8
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

These scriptures, I think, must refer to the same spiritual warfare. Here, the war is about a "place" where the dragon and his angels have no right to be, so, like most wars, it is a war about "turf," or possession of a "land," which in this case, is heaven, the location of the temple of God in Revelation 11:19, and the heavenly woman of Revelation 12:1, who represents the church.

When the dragon is cast out to the earth, the saints are said to be victorious.

In this prophecy, heaven is symbolic, and represents the status of believers, who in Ephesians 2:6 "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," and the earth and sea are symbolic of worldly society. Stars that are drawn by the dragon's tail and cast to the earth are believers, who are deceived, and who fall, and so return to the world.

Just as the ancient Israelites were promised a land, those who are in Christ have a promised land too. Paul said the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness occurred for our examples.
   
1 Corinthians 10:11-12
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
   
In Revelation 12, the woman flees to the wilderness, in verse 6, and again in verse 14. In verse 6, it is for a period of 1,260 days, the same time period mentioned in Revelation 11:3, which is the time span assigned for the ministry of the two witnesses.

In verse 14, her sojourn in the wilderness is for "a time, times, and a half" which is the period mentioned in Daniel 7:25, when the saints are dominated by a "little horn" who has "eyes like the eyes of a man" and "a mouth speaking great things." I suggest the "eyes like the eyes of a man" represent a human viewpoint, which contrasts with a divine perspective.

The divine perspective is represented by the wings of an eagle, that are given to the woman. An eagle soars at a great height, and views the earth from above, so the eagle's wings represent the divine perspective, that is provided by a right interpretation of prophecy. Thus, in her second flight to the wilderness, the woman is equipped with a divine perspective, one which is not evident in her first flight to the wilderness in Revelation 12:6.  

The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are killed, and are revived again, which suggests that the right approach to understanding prophecy has already existed in the past, but was suppressed, and abandoned. And this may be well illustrated by the explanation that Hengstenberg provided for the time periods mentioned in Revelation 11 and 12, and by the work of other men who employed a spiritual approach to prophecy, applying many of the prophecies that refer to Israel and Jerusalem to the church, rather than ethnic Jews. That was the approach employed by the apostles, in the NT. But in contrast, the basic approach of dispensationalism is to deny that the church fills the role of Israel, and preterism is similar; their view seems to elevate the writings of Josephus, an unbeliever, almost to scriptural status!

Paul in Galatians 4 identifies the unbelieving Jews with Hagar and Ishmael rather than with Isaac. He says:

Galatians 4:28-31
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

So, is the modern Jewish state the subject of prophecy? Perhaps it is, as in Revelation 13, one of the heads of the beast had received a deadly wound, that was healed. Perhaps the Jewish state is one of those heads, the one that received the deadly wound in 70 AD, and it revives the Roman province of Judea.

Revelation 13:1-5
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The "beast" described in Revelation 13:1-5 incorporates each one of the animals described in Daniel's vision of Daniel 7, and the total number of heads and horns are the same in both prophecies. The 42 months in Revelation 13:5 corresponds to the "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25, and to the time that Gentiles trample the holy city, in Revelation 11:2, which refers to the church being under the domination of worldly men, and "a human point of view."

The "blasphemies" of the beast, which includes the political, economic, military and intellectual heritage of the ancient Babylonian, Persian, Hellenistic, and Roman civilizations, likely include such names as "Holy Roman Empire," "The Third Reich," and "Israel." The world views the modern Jewish state as "Israel," but John said the dragon "deceiveth the whole world."

Doug

[Doug]

One of the most obvious features to be seen in chapters 11, 12, & 13 of Revelation is the prominence given to the time periods, and their associated numbers, 1,260 days, and 42 months, and the "time, times, and a half;" all pointing to the same period of one half of a prophetic week, and corresponding to the similar symbolic 1,290 days and 1,335 days of Daniel 12, and the "time, times, and a half" mentioned in Daniel 7:25, and in Daniel 12:7. I suggest it is the last half-week of the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27, when Christ continues to confirm his covenant with his church.

In Revelation chapter 12, these numbers are applied to the period for which the woman is in the wilderness, which alludes to the account of the sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness, led by Moses, before they entered the promised land under Joshua.

A prominent feature in chapter 12 is the presence of two separate descriptions of the woman's flight to the wilderness, the first one occurring before the description of the war in heaven, and the second occurring after. In both of these flights to the wilderness, the woman is fed. In her second flight to the wilderness she is equipped with eagle's wings. In both flights to the wilderness, the time specified is similar, and corresponds to the symbolic "time, times, and a half," and its equivalent of 1,260 days, and to the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses. The wilderness depicts the sojourn of Christians in this present life; see 1 Corinthians 10:1-12.

The character of the woman's two flights to the wilderness may be contrasted.

The 1st flight to the wilderness

In her first flight to the wilderness, there is a famine, of "hearing the word of the Lord." [Amos 8:11-13]

In her first flight to the wilderness, there is no rain of the word of God, but a famine. The 1,260 days correspond to the three and a half years of no rain in the days of Elijah.

The two witnesses have power to "shut heaven." [Revelation 11:6] The "rain" is symbolic of God's word.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the holy city is trampled by Gentiles. [Revelation 11:2]

People view the prophecies through the spectacles of men who they view as spiritual "giants," and see themselves as "grasshoppers" in comparison to them. They quote from commentaries, and follow the traditions of men that are embraced by particular denominations or sects, that effectively kill the two witnesses, the word, and the Spirit.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are overcome by the little horn, the Antichrist spirit. [Daniel 7:21, 25]

In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are scattered. [Daniel 12:7] This has been fulfilled, and is shown by the tens of thousands of denominations.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the church becomes desolate, like a valley of dry bones. [Ezekiel 37:1-2]

In her first flight to the wilderness, the church is plundered by the armies of Gog and Magog. [Ezekiel 38:10-13]

In Zechariah's prophecy, in Zechariah 14:1-3, many of the saints are taken into captivity, houses rifled, and women ravished. It is a spiritual seduction, such as Paul alludes to in 2 Corinthians 11:1-3.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the world rejoices over the desolation of the church, and the death of the two witnesses. [Revelation 11:10]

The 2nd flight to the wilderness

In her second flight to the wilderness, the saints have renewed strength. The woman has been given eagle's wings. [Revelation 12:14] The prophecies may be viewed in a new way-from above, as pictured by eagle's wings, whereas in the first flight to the wilderness, her point of view was earth-bound, having "eyes like the eyes of a man."

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Isaiah said the saints will renew their strength, and "shall mount up with wings as eagles." [Isaiah 40:31] David said God "satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's." [Psalm 103:5]

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, Satan, the accuser of the brethren, has been cast out. [Revelation 12:9]

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the wilderness itself is changed. Isaiah said, the wilderness will be glad; the desert will "blossom as the rose;" [Isaiah 35:1] streams will flow in the desert; [Isaiah 35:6] the mountains and hills bring forth fruit; [Ezekiel 36:11] hills will rejoice. [Psalm 65:11-13] God will make bright clouds, and showers of rain. [Zechariah 10:1]

In her second flight to the wilderness, the woman has some help; the flood from the serpent's mouth gets swallowed up by the earth. [Revelation 12:16] The deceptions are exposed.

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the two witnesses come to life, and stand on their feet. [Revelation 11:11]

Daniel said the beast is slain, and his body given to the burning flame. [Daniel 7:11]

Fire falls on those who "know not God."

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the war between the angels has been fought. The saints are victorious. [Revelation 12:11-12]

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the ark of the covenant is seen in the temple. [Revelation 11:19] This may be understood as the fulfillment of the new covenant, that says God will write his laws on our hearts, and remembers our sins no more. [Hebrews 10:16-17]

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Very interesting perspective..... :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Thanks for posting the "Small Uncomplete Summary" - the two witnesses is something in the book of revelation that I've never understood, and I liked reading the summary, especially the line "old testament witness" and "new testament witness" also, "candlesticks and olive trees"

also interesting i noticed in this thread is the 'two' women of rev 12... one is Israel, she gives birth to the man child (Son of man) and the dragon (in the person of Herod) makes to devour the man child (Son of man) but He is caught up to God and His Throne(Heb 3)... the dragon is enraged and hotly pursues the woman (70 A.D.) (the mantle of Truth is now worn by the Christians, i.e. the '2nd' woman) and there is a first migration (mainly to Europe). There's war in heaven (asserted/half the battle has been won) and the dragon no longer is allowed access to the heaven's and rages against the woman again but she is given the two wings of an eagle that she may fly/sail to a second place (second migration) and she is protected from the FaCe of the dragon for three (modern) times and a half. [add 350 years to 1620 and come to a time when a previously hidden phenomenon burst forth and changed society/ eventually the world, rev 17:9, seven continents/hills] - i.e. The serpent (guise of the dragon) released a flood (and proliferation) after the woman seeking to wash her away from the face of the earth.. But alas! the earth comes to the aid of the woman and swallows the flood (c.r. - Luke 23:31).
     The "the dragon" turns his attention back to the 1st woman (who by now) has the testimony of Jesus and the commandments of God.. (c.r.- "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you will not see me again until you say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD"...

[Doug]

There are not two women in Revelation 12, only one. But there are two witnesses in chapter 11, as according to the law of Moses, a single witness is invalid for convicting a person of some transgression; there must be two.

One of the key questions about the prophecy of Revelation 12 concerns the significance of the wilderness. Paul showed that there is a connection between the experience of the church and the sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness after they came out of Egypt, and all the hard lessons they learned, which were for our examples. [1 Cor. 10:6, 11]

The 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5 has been associated with the 42 different camps of Israel on their way to the promised land, listed in Numbers 33. They "pitched in Succoth;" ... "pitched in Etham;" ... "pitched before Migdol;" ... "pitched in Marah;" ... "came unto Elim ... and they pitched there;" ... "encamped by the Red sea;" ... "encamped in the wilderness of Sin;" ... "encamped in Dophkah;" ... "encamped in Alush;" ... "encamped at Rephidim;" ... "pitched in the wilderness of Sinai;" ... "pitched at Kibrothhattaavah;" ... "encamped at Hazeroth;" ... "pitched in Rithmah;" ... "pitched at Rimmonparez;" ... "pitched in Libnah;" ... "pitched at Rissah;" ... "pitched in Kehelathah;" ... "pitched in mount Shapher;" ... "encamped in Haradah;" ... "pitched in Makheloth;" ... "encamped at Tahath;" ... "pitched at Tarah;" ... "pitched in Mithcah;" ... "pitched in Hashmonah;" ... "encamped at Moseroth;" ... "pitched in Benejaakan;" ... "encamped at Horhagidgad;" ... "pitched in Jotbathah;" ... "encamped at Ebronah;" ... "encamped at Eziongaber;" ... "pitched in the wilderness of Zin, which is Kadesh;" ... "pitched in mount Hor;" ... "pitched in Zalmonah;" ... "pitched in Punon;" ... "pitched in Oboth;" ... "pitched in Ijeabarim, in the border of Moab;" ... "pitched in Dibongad;" ... "encamped in Almondiblathaim;" ... "pitched in the mountains of Abarim, before Nebo;" ... "pitched in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho;" ... "pitched by Jordan, from Bethjesimoth even unto Abelcraptim in the plains of Moab."

These 42 different camp sites help to show what the wilderness represents in Revelation 12:6 and 14. Like the Israelites who moved from place to place, the church also has not attained her permanent spiritual "land," but is still being taught, and led, often in a roundabout way, to her final destination, the promised "rest," and the eternal inheritance of the saints.

Examples of this occur when individual Christians abandon formerly held interpretations, and systems of interpretation, for a different view, or leave the denomination they were brought up in, and become aligned with another. The wilderness for us is the unsettled state, of seeking our promised land, not having attained it already.

The two different flights of the woman to the wilderness may be explained as representing two different viewpoints, or methods of interpretation; one being the earth-bound view, which the woman is limited to, when she lacks the two wings of an eagle, that are given to her in her second flight to the wilderness. The wings of eagles represent an understanding of prophecy, as when an eagle soars high in the air, it views the earth from above, picturing the divine viewpoint, which contrasts with the human viewpoint, represented by the little horn, which dominates the saints in the vision of Daniel 7.

Doug

[Doug]

The name of the last place where the Israelites camped, before entering the promised land, and crossing over Jordan, was not "Abelcraptim," as it says in my previous post, which I tried to correct. However, its real name is apparently unacceptable for posting here.
   
The significance of that particular camp site was that it represented a sad event, that very possibly is significant for Christians today. It was where the Israelites "began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab." [Numbers 25:1]
   
Paul makes reference to it:

1 Corinthians 10:8
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

This event appears to be significant for the church, as in the prophecy of Joel, that valley, the name of which is apparently unacceptable on this board, is specifically mentioned in a prophecy of Joel, as benefiting from the waters that flow from the fountain in the house of the Lord. [Joel 3:18]
   
This is most remarkable, because a river flowing from the temple to that valley, located east of the Jordan Rift Valley, and north of the Dead Sea, would be contrary to nature, and to the existing topography.

The waters from the temple, which are described in greater detail in the prophecy of Ezekiel 47, heal most areas where they flow, and when they empty into the Dead Sea, its waters are healed, apparently changing it to fresh water. But I suggest, this is a metaphor, representing the effects of the Spirit, and the gospel, that flows from the church to the world, and their healing effect.

In the prophecy of Joel 3:18, about the valley which gets watered by the fountain in the house of the Lord, it seems to me that the significance for the church could be that it is really about a cure for spiritual whoredom. In Revelation 14, the saints are described as being "virgins" who are "not defiled with women." 

Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This also refers to spiritual fidelity. As Paul explains it, not being "defiled with women" means not teaching false doctrines. 

2 Corinthians 11:2-3
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Doug

[micah7:9]

Joe 3:18  And it hath come to pass, in that day, Drop down do the mountains juice, And the hills do flow with milk, And all streams of Judah do go with water, And a fountain from the house of Jehovah goeth forth, And hath watered the valley of Shittim.

[Doug]

Joe 3:18  And it hath come to pass, in that day, Drop down do the mountains juice, And the hills do flow with milk, And all streams of Judah do go with water, And a fountain from the house of Jehovah goeth forth, And hath watered the valley of Shittim.

I guess I could write the place named in Numbers 33:49 as "Abelshittim."

In the NIV, Joel 3:18 is translated (or interpreted) as:

In that day the mountains will drip new wine, and the hills will flow with milk; all the ravines of Judah will run with water. A fountain will flow out of the Lord's house and will water the valley of acacias.

The translators must have had a hard time with the idea of a river from the temple in Jerusalem crossing the Dead Sea to get to the eastern side of Jordan.

Doug

[Doug]

As an example of the human point of view, pictured by the "eyes like the eyes of a man" in the little horn of Daniel 7, that dominates the saints for "a time, times, and a half," that characterizes the woman's first flight to the wilderness in chapter 12, consider some of the opinions that have been offered on the significance of the temple mentioned in Revelation 11:1-2.
   
John was given a reed like a rod, and he was told to measure it. Some have claimed this proves that the book of Revelation must have been written when the temple at Jerusalem was still standing, or else, no one reading his prophecy would have been able to make any sense of the angel asking John to measure the temple. But that is obviously a flawed argument, as the measuring of the temple has a precedent in the prophecy of Ezekiel 41, which referred to a visionary temple. There was no literal temple standing in Jerusalem when Ezekiel wrote his prophecy, and he wrote a whole chapter describing the dimensions of its various parts, so why would John have needed a temple of stones and wood, made with human hands, to report on its measurements?

And, what would be the purpose of measuring Herod's temple, if it was soon to be destroyed? And why would John have been the one who was asked to measure it, when he was confined to Island of Patmos, far from Jerusalem, and an exile? If God had really wanted someone to record the dimensions of Herod's temple, surely he could have chosen a person who had access to it! And to clinch the matter, no actual dimensions are given in John's prophecy.

The temple John was about to measure was one made without hands, the church, which is the true temple, of which the ones in Jerusalem were a type, or shadow. In Revelation 11:19, the temple is said to be in heaven, and the ark of the covenant is seen in it. I suggest this represents the promise of the New Covenant, that says God will write his laws on our hearts, and remember our sins no more.

Another view of the temple in Revelation 11:1-2, that likewise represents a human point of view, is that the temple mentioned there is one that is yet to be built. Many dispensationalists look for a future temple to be built in Jerusalem, that will be occupied by an individual human Antichrist for three and a half years, while two human prophets clothed in sackcloth wander around Jerusalem, and fulfill the role of the two witnesses, killing their enemies with fire from heaven, and bringing terrible plagues upon the earth.

This of course is very silly. Such interpretations, IMO, contribute to the slaying of the two witnesses, the scriptures and the Spirit. The temple in Revelation 11 is a metaphor, representing the church, just as the woman in heaven in Revelation 12:1 also represents the church of all ages, and the Israel of God. Similarly the temple in Revelation 3:12 is a metaphor, and represents the church:

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Isaiah had said Mount Zion and Jerusalem would be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, and in the New Testament, Mount Zion and Jerusalem are raised up to heaven, which fulfills Isaiah's prophecy.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Doug

[Doug]

The wilderness in Revelation 12:6 and 12:14, where the woman flees, and where she is nourished, is a metaphor, not a literal desert.

Its meaning is related to the wilderness where the Israelites wandered for 40 years, after the Exodus, en route to the promised land. And thus, the promised land of the OT also has a meaning for Christians, as a type of the "rest" and the eternal inheritance of the saints.
   
The promised land for the saints is not the literal land of Canaan, but that land represented their eternal inheritance, in a type or "shadow." It represents things that are invisible. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for." Faith is invisible.

The land promise and the territory where the Israelites dwelt for several centuries was the region where many revelations from God were given to the prophets, and even when the prophets were in exile, as Ezekiel was, they often wrote about the land, and changes that would occur there, and about the land promise, and the restoration to the land. So the land promise is a prominent theme throughout the Old Testament. Daniel's prayer in chapter 9 was about Jerusalem.
   
OT scholar Walter Brueggermann wrote:

Israel is embodied in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the earliest presentations as sojourners on the way to a land whose name it does not know. It is en route in response to the call of a God who tells it very little about himself and asks of Israel a blind trust. ...
During the period when Israel had left the slavery of Egypt and was not yet in the land of promise (forty years' worth!) it remembered itself as wanderer. ...
Israel's third memory of landlessness is the exile. Although the northern tribes were exiled to Assyria in the eighth century, it is the sixth century Jews in Babylon that provide the central image of exile for the Bible.

[Walter Brueggemann, The Land: Place as Gifts, Promise, and Challenge in Biblical Faith. Fortress Press, 1977, 2002. p. 5-7]

Similar facts about Israel's past are also mentioned in the NT. And the creation story of Genesis, man being expelled from the Garden of Eden parallels the story of Israel's loss of their promised land.

Brueggemann wrote:

Land is a defining theme in Old Testament tradition. The Old Testament is preoccupied with the concrete particularity of land, thereby assuring that Israel's faith is in touch with the public, material, sociopolitical-economic aspects of living in the world. For that reason, one cannot consider the faith of the Old Testament or the God of the Old Testament without at the same time being concerned with socioeconomic analysis, for land is not just a "good idea," but actual real estate that evokes and hosts profound hope, imaginative social policy deep moral conflict, savage acts of violence, and acute communal disappointment.... The story of the early part of the Bible thus is the movement from land anticipation to land governance and finally to land loss, culminating in the deportation and displacement from the land, signalled as "exile." Remarkably in this tradition preoccupied with land, the exile is the defining signature event of ancient Israel. The exile, moreover, became the matrix in which the ancient promises of land were reiterated afresh. Thus the great prophetic traditions of Isaiah 40--55, Jeremiah 30-31, and Ezekiel 33-48 all assure exilic Israel that God will once again give land to Israel as it was first given to the heirs of the ancestors (see Isa. 49:19-20; 51:2-3; Jer. 31:12-14, 38-40; Ezek. 37:13-14; 47:13-14). With these utterances the gift of land is again in prospect. Again YHWH guarantees, and again Israel is to trust the promise and receive the gift.

[Reverberations of faith: a theological handbook of Old Testament themes, by Walter Brueggemann. (Westminster John Knox Press, 2002) p. 120-123]

For Christians, as several Christian scholars have pointed out, the promise of the land has become a spiritual promise. W.D. Davies said, in a statement often quoted, "In sum, for the holiness of place, Christianity has fundamentally, though not consistently, substituted the holiness of the Person: it has Christified holy space."

[The Gospel and the Land: Early Christianity and Jewish Territorial Doctrine, by W. D. Davies. (U. of California Press 1974) p. 368.]

One striking example pointed out by Davies was when Jesus said to Nathanael,

John 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Jesus put himself in place of Bethel, where Jacob dreamed of "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it." [Genesis 28:12] In the dream, God promised to give the land he was in to Jacob, and here, part of the real significance of the land was revealed; it would be a place where revelations of God would be given to man.

The wilderness of Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 is seen to be a metaphor representing the territory where Christians dwell, and where they are nourished, during their quest for their spiritual promised land, their permanent inheritance. This is discussed further in my article, The woman in the wilderness.

Doug

[reFORMer]

The "land" promise has expanded in revelation.  It encompasses the entire cosmos.  "For not through law is the promise to Abraham, or to his Seed, for him to be enjoyer of the allotment of the world, but through faith's righteousness." (Rm 4¹³, CLT)

[Doug]

The "land" promise has expanded in revelation.  It encompasses the entire cosmos.  "For not through law is the promise to Abraham, or to his Seed, for him to be enjoyer of the allotment of the world, but through faith's righteousness." (Rm 4¹³, CLT)

Like the law, which had in it a "shadow of good things to come," [Hebrews 10:1] the land promise also is a type, and a sample of greater things than dwelling in the rather small territory in the Middle East with the boundaries of the land possessed by ancient Israel.

IMO there has been a tendency for many Christian scholars to overlook the significance of the land promise for the church, and it is discussed in my article Has the land promise been set aside?

Similarly, many scholars seem to have missed the significance of the woman fleeing to the wilderness in Revelation 12, where there are two accounts of it.

Brueggemann discerned two contrasting histories of Israel in the wilderness, in the account of Numbers 14. He contrasted the general attitude of the people with that of Joshua and Caleb, the only ones of those who came out of Egypt who obtained an inheritance in the promised land. He wrote:

Numbers 14; The Two Histories in the Wilderness

Having rejected safe slavery, Israel found its immediate destiny to be landlessness. But even in wilderness it discovered that one may be a participant in one of two histories, surely a continuation of the two histories we have discerned in Genesis. Numbers 14 presents in rapid succession a series of images about facing the competing claims of the two histories. One is driven by a sense of banishment, characterized by mistrust, expressed as quarrelsomeness, and devoted to return to Egypt. The other is the history of hope, trusting in Yahweh's promises, enduring in the face of want and need, sure that history was on its way to the new and good land. Israel discerned what rootless people must each time learn over again, that in such landlessness there may be unexpected sustaining resources. Or one may discern there only darkness and abandonment. In the events of wilderness Israel wrestled like Jacob for its being and for its faith.
   
The first expression in this chapter of the two histories is in vv. 1-10. The issues are clearly stated. The history of banishment is articulated in vv. 1-4, characterized by loud cries, weeping, and murmuring. Landlessness leads to bitter accusation, here expressed as two explanations of indignation, two rhetorical questions, and a concluding appeal:

exclamations:
   (a) Would that we had died in the land of Egypt!
   (b) Or would that we had died in this wilderness!
questions:
   (a) Why does Yahweh bring us into this land to fall by the sword?
   (b) Would it not be better for us to go back to Egypt?
appeal:
   Let us choose a captain and go back to Egypt.
...

The counter-theme of this protest is represented by Moses and Aaron, but more dramatically by Joshua and Caleb. The old history led to complaint.
The new history leads to repentance: they "rent their clothes." The speakers for the new history do not mention Egypt or return because they are singularly oriented to the land yet promised. They speak not of hardships but only of the richness of what is promised: "The land, which we passed through to spy it out, is an exceedingly good land" (v. 7) The others had spoken only of wilderness and Egypt as though these were the only options. They framed the land-less around the limited options of death and slavery. But Joshua and Caleb speak of yet another option; the land still in the future, the land good, exceedingly. Superlatives fail. The land is still conditional: "if" (v. 8). But the promise for which they left Egypt is still compelling: "a land flowing with milk and honey" (Exod 3:8). What led them here in the first place is still the main reason.

[The land: place as gift, promise, and challenge in biblical faith, by Walter Brueggemann. (Fortress Press, 2002) p. 33-34]

This may have a parallel with the two flights of the woman to the wilderness in Revelation 12, which present two contrasting histories; in one case, the woman possesses the two wings of an eagle, and in the other case, she does not, and so is dominated by and limited to "a human viewpoint."

Doug

[thinktank]

You clearly love chapter 12 Doug   :happygrin: . I have a different view to yours though, since you love this chapter so much maybe you should not read my view and instead let the lord figure it out for yourself. Because I remember figuring out chapter 12 it was great fun. So if I post my view here, which I probably will knowing me  :laughing7: maybe you should ignore it.

[Doug]

You clearly love chapter 12 Doug   :happygrin: . I have a different view to yours though, since you love this chapter so much maybe you should not read my view and instead let the lord figure it out for yourself. Because I remember figuring out chapter 12 it was great fun. So if I post my view here, which I probably will knowing me  :laughing7: maybe you should ignore it.

I hope you don't tell us there is a gap in the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel. That would be a real whopper, as time has no gaps! IMO, it is a clear example of "a mouth speaking great things." [Dan. 7:8]

Doug

[thinktank]

You clearly love chapter 12 Doug   :happygrin: . I have a different view to yours though, since you love this chapter so much maybe you should not read my view and instead let the lord figure it out for yourself. Because I remember figuring out chapter 12 it was great fun. So if I post my view here, which I probably will knowing me  :laughing7: maybe you should ignore it.

I hope you don't tell us there is a gap in the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel. That would be a real whopper, as time has no gaps! IMO, it is a clear example of "a mouth speaking great things." [Dan. 7:8]

Doug

I like your style Doug you have a spirit of grace/peace about you.
concerning rev12 I haven't gone into detail like you have, but the lord showed me some basic but powerful stuff, which satisfied my hungry belly for that chapter.

[Doug]

The wilderness of Revelation 12:6 and 12:14, where the woman flees, and where she is nourished for 1,260 days, and for "a time, times, and a half", is a metaphorical one. It represents the sojourn of Christians living in this present world, who seek to enter the heavenly kingdom.

Below are several reasons why the life of a Christian is described as a wilderness experience. On both occasions when she flees to the wilderness, the woman is fed. Consider the spiritual nourishment that the woman receives.

The ancient Israelites ate manna, but Jesus claimed to be the true "bread from heaven." The manna that the Israelites ate in the wilderness was a type of Jesus, who gives his "flesh" as the spiritual nourishment to believers.

John 6:35, 49-51, 56
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
...
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
...
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

So, just as Christ is the true manna, the "bread which cometh down from heaven," those who are nourished with the spiritual food he gives are described as escaping to a figurative wilderness, where Christ is the leader, instead of Moses.

Another way in which Christians are in a "wilderness" experience is that they are "separate" from unbelievers, and from idolatrous forms of worship, and from the world. Paul said to the Corinthians,

2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

When the woman "flees," and escapes to the wilderness, what does she flee from? It must be from a threat of some kind, and from sin. Paul said:  

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

By fleeing to the wilderness, the woman "departs from iniquity." It is for her survival, so she may avoid the judgment that is to come upon the world. When the dragon is cast out, and the saints overcome his deception, he persecutes the woman. [Revelation 12:13]

In the wilderness, the woman seeks a heavenly country, and a heavenly kingdom. It is not of this present world.

Hebrews 13:14
For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

James said that friendship with the world implies enmity with God.

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

The apostle John said, every one who hopes for the reward of life when Christ appears "purifies" himself.

1 John 3:3
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

In Revelation, the saints are warned to come out from the false religious system represented by Babylon.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

In the book of Proverbs, we read of the highway of the upright.

Proverbs 16:17
The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.

Several prophecies describe a "highway" in the wilderness. Isaiah said, "make straight in the desert a highway for our God." [Isaiah 40:3]

The path leading away from evil which Christians in the wilderness follow, is to become a highway. It is the way to the kingdom of God.

Doug

[reFORMer]

I'm NOT saying, "This is the true interpretation."  That's the wrong way to think of Scripture anyway...it's so full of multifaceted glory and wisdom.  But, when it comes into my mind, the following connects me to God's view of how the saints are slandered, including on the internet, but the earth opening its mouth counters it.  Specifically, the internet, a thing of the earth that is throughout the earth, opens its mouth and helps the woman.

Revelation 12^15-16; CLT...
15 And the serpent casts water as a river out of its mouth after the woman, that she should be carried away by its current.
16 And the earth helps the woman, and the earth opens its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon casts out of its mouth.

_________________________
I thought we had a thread on "Rev 12," maybe some title with the name "woman" in it.  I remember writing on the topic earlier on in this incarnation of tentmaker.  I just can't find it at the moment.  Maybe it would be good for one of you to post some material and create one.  This is a GREAT sign in heaven..."THE SUN-CLOTHED WOMAN."  Who wrote a message with that title? 

[Doug]

I'm NOT saying, "This is the true interpretation."  That's the wrong way to think of Scripture anyway...it's so full of multifaceted glory and wisdom.  But, when it comes into my mind, the following connects me to God's view of how the saints are slandered, including on the internet, but the earth opening its mouth counters it.  Specifically, the internet, a thing of the earth that is throughout the earth, opens its mouth and helps the woman.

Revelation 12^15-16; CLT...
15 And the serpent casts water as a river out of its mouth after the woman, that she should be carried away by its current.
16 And the earth helps the woman, and the earth opens its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon casts out of its mouth.

The idea of the earth opening its mouth, parallels the wilderness experience of the Israelites, and connects those events with the experience of the church, represented by the woman in Revelation 12.

Some of the Levites, led by Korah, and others, led by Dathan and Abiram, gathered themselves together against Moses and Aaron, accusing Moses of wanting to make himself a prince over them, and they complained that they had not come to a land flowing with milk and honey, or received the inheritance they were promised, but faced death in the wilderness. [Numbers 16:13-14] Then God demonstrated by a great sign, that they had transgressed.

Numbers 16:28-33
28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

The story suggests to me that somehow, the earth opening its mouth and swallowing up the serpent's flood in Revelation 12:16 would likely involve a separation between those who follow Christ, and those who don't. It is kind of an anti-rapture.  :Sparkletooth:

I thought we had a thread on "Rev 12," maybe some title with the name "woman" in it.  I remember writing on the topic earlier on in this incarnation of tentmaker.  I just can't find it at the moment.  Maybe it would be good for one of you to post some material and create one.  This is a GREAT sign in heaven..."THE SUN-CLOTHED WOMAN."  Who wrote a message with that title? 

Is this the one you were looking for? Re: Eagles and the spirit.

Your comment in this post about eagles, "For their ability to remain at great heights and see great distances they represent the spiritual life and visionary prophetic" is quite similar to my view.

The eagles provide another connection between the wilderness in Revelation 12, and the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness after the Exodus from Egypt. The eagles' wings were a symbol of God's protection.

Exodus 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

It is seen again in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 32:10-12
9 For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.
11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:
12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

The church has the role of Israel and the events in the wilderness in the time of Moses happened for our examples, Paul said. [1 Cor. 10:11]

Doug

[reFORMer]

Yes Doug, that http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=506.msg4263#msg4263 is the right link... Re: Eagles and the spirit.  How did you find it?  Here's the quote from it that covers briefly the Sun Clothed Woman...

In Rv 12 is one of the 2 "great" signs, seen in the heaven, a woman travailing and tormented to be bringing forth her child.  I personally like this portion a great deal.  I understand the description to be a parallel of many other threefold things in the word (like Jesus' 30, 60 and 100 fold [Mt13:8; Mk 4:8 and again in v.20]) which I will not here enumerate.  Many of you are familiar with this.  The moon corresponds to the outer court of the temple for instance.  It is a people in the heaven but it's still dirt.  It is solitary as Adam nature is an individual soul.  Their way is still determined in relation to the earth.  Their light is in the night.  Their glory is still reflected:  like the law reflects God, they reflect the sun-clothed woman who is a corporate entity.  They are under the authority of the Woman, "at her feet."  The woman's authority is worn on her brow.  Though a wreath of victory, it is imparted, referential, made of stars that are signs.  She knows on her ground appeared the twelve fathers of the tribes and apostles of the lamb.  The authority of the male she births is intrinsic to him, his nature, his destiny.  He, "...is about to be shepherding all the nations in an iron club."

_________________________________

About the OP, I most often tend to think of the two witnesses as any particular person who is in Christ and the Father Who is with them.  This is based on Jesus' words...

"Yet in this law, also, of yours it is written that the testimony of two men is true.  I am the One testifying concerning Myself, and the Father Who sends Me is testifying concerning Me." (John 817-18; Concordant Literal Translation)

[Doug]

Yes Doug, that http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=506.msg4263#msg4263 is the right link... Re: Eagles and the spirit.  How did you find it? 

Since it was not found by a Search on the "Book of Revelation" discussion forum, I tried the same Search on the parent board.

Here's the quote from it that covers briefly the Sun Clothed Woman...

In Rv 12 is one of the 2 "great" signs, seen in the heaven, a woman travailing and tormented to be bringing forth her child.  I personally like this portion a great deal.  I understand the description to be a parallel of many other threefold things in the word (like Jesus' 30, 60 and 100 fold [Mt13:8; Mk 4:8 and again in v.20]) which I will not here enumerate.  Many of you are familiar with this.  The moon corresponds to the outer court of the temple for instance. 

Rev. 11:2 shows the holy city trampled by Gentiles, who occupy the outer court of the temple, which seems to contradict the idea that the moon under her feet corresponds to the outer court. The woman in ch. 12 corresponds to the temple proper; in ch. 11, the Gentiles are not "under her feet," but instead, she is trampled by them.

In Joseph's dream, interpreted in Genesis 37:10, Rachel is identified with the moon. And in Matthew 2:18, Rachel weeping for her children seems to represent the Jewish people.
   
Maybe that could help in understanding Revelation 12. Some commentators have suggested the moon represents the Mosaic system, which contains types and shadows of the gospel. [Hebrews 10:1]

Another prophecy that may be relevant is the one quoted in Acts 2:20. "Blood" can represent something unpalatable.

About the OP, I most often tend to think of the two witnesses as any particular person who is in Christ and the Father Who is with them.  This is based on Jesus' words...

"Yet in this law, also, of yours it is written that the testimony of two men is true.  I am the One testifying concerning Myself, and the Father Who sends Me is testifying concerning Me." (John 817-18; Concordant Literal Translation)

Jesus is also called the Word. [John 1:1] The Spirit of the Father was in Jesus. And so Jesus, and the Spirit of the Father, are two witnesses.

John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

It is the Spirit that guides us to the truth.

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Doug

[Doug]

I'm NOT saying, "This is the true interpretation."  That's the wrong way to think of Scripture anyway...it's so full of multifaceted glory and wisdom.  But, when it comes into my mind, the following connects me to God's view of how the saints are slandered, including on the internet, but the earth opening its mouth counters it.  Specifically, the internet, a thing of the earth that is throughout the earth, opens its mouth and helps the woman.

An interpretation of the earth swallowing up the flood from the serpent's mouth is the last item in my article: Melting the mountains.

Doug

[Doug]

The woman's flight to the wilderness in Revelation 12, which is described in two verses, vs. 6 and vs. 14, was foretold by the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Isaiah describes it in terms of a second Exodus.

Isaiah 11:10-12
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

In vs. 10, Isaiah identifies the ensign as Christ. Zechariah 9:16 also refers to the saints as an ensign.

Those who have a part in this great exodus come to worship at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Isaiah said Jerusalem and Zion would be raised up; [Isaiah 2:2] in the NT this prophecy is fulfilled, as is evident from Hebrews 12:22-23, where Jerusalem is referred to as the "heavenly" Jerusalem; "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem..."

According to Jeremiah, the second exodus will eclipse the first one.

Jeremiah 16:14-15
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Nowhere in the NT are Christians encouraged to go to the land of Canaan, so Jeremiah's reference to "the land that I gave unto their fathers" must refer to the eternal inheritance of the saints, under the figure of the promised land, which was called a "rest," [Psalm 95:11] but was only a type or shadow of the eternal "rest" promised to the saints. [Hebrews 4:8]

In the NT, Abraham is called the "father" of those who have faith in Christ. [Romans 4:16] Paul called him "the father of us all."

Jeremiah described the second exodus as something so great, the first one, when Jews came out of Egypt under Moses, will be seen as insignificant in comparison.

Jeremiah 23:7-8
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

What is the promised land of the saints? It is not Canaan, IMO, but what Canaan represents, the invisible things that the saints hope for.

Doug