why should this be so scary?

[WhiteWings]

One can argue that, he was not willing than any perish but that all come to repentance.

Cool. Father doesn't will anyone to perish. => They will shalt be done!

Some creation would have enjoyed their life on earth being evil, doing evil, so they would have enjoyed some innings.

Sounds good.

But those who want to live forever join christ in his new kingdom.

Sounds good too.

Lemme do a some math.

95% = Is the percentage of creation wants to party and be destroyed afterward (ignoring the many people that are deceived)
5% = The percentage of creation that follows Jesus.
100% = The percentage that Father wants to save.

100% is not equal to 5%
Why?
a] Pots overruled the Potter?
b] The Potter is a lousy craftsman?

[jabcat]

One can argue that, he was not willing than any perish but that all come to repentance.

Cool. Father doesn't will anyone to perish. => They will shalt be done!

Some creation would have enjoyed their life on earth being evil, doing evil, so they would have enjoyed some innings.

Sounds good.

But those who want to live forever join christ in his new kingdom.

Sounds good too.

Lemme do a some math.

95% = Is the percentage of creation wants to party and be destroyed afterward (ignoring the many people that are deceived)
5% = The percentage of creation that follows Jesus.
100% = The percentage that Father wants to save.

100% is not equal to 5%
Why?
a] Pots overruled the Potter?
b] The Potter is a lousy craftsman?

c] God's will and Jesus' blood too weak to get it done?

[thinktank]

One can argue that, he was not willing than any perish but that all come to repentance.

Cool. Father doesn't will anyone to perish. => They will shalt be done!

Some creation would have enjoyed their life on earth being evil, doing evil, so they would have enjoyed some innings.

Sounds good.

But those who want to live forever join christ in his new kingdom.

Sounds good too.

Lemme do a some math.

95% = Is the percentage of creation wants to party and be destroyed afterward (ignoring the many people that are deceived)
5% = The percentage of creation that follows Jesus.
100% = The percentage that Father wants to save.

100% is not equal to 5%
Why?
a] Pots overruled the Potter?
b] The Potter is a lousy craftsman?

Your faith is strong, God bless you for that.

The disciples asked Jesus "who then can be saved"

With God all things are possible.

[WhiteWings]

Your faith is strong, God bless you for that.

I think you are very deceived by my spamming. I'm kinda sure my faith is the smallest of the whole forum. I comment/post as I would on a science book  :sigh:
But thanks for the compliment  :thumbsup:

[legoman]

I think we need to keep in mind:

- Jesus came to destroy death (I read that as not some death, not just future death, all death)
- every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and swear allegiance to the glory of the father (I view this as a willing and joyous oath that every soul will make)
- In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive (not some, but all)
- where sin increased, grace increased all the more.  There is no sin that can stop God's grace.
- God will have all men to be saved.
- all will choose God eventually because all will bow and all are made alive.

Eternal Death aka Annihilation doesn't fit here.

[shawn]

I know you directed this to Shawn, but I am a firm believer in eternal destruction, so I'd like to give my response to your question, if I may.

I don't think God purposely created any of us to be "thrown away forever." However, I believe we were created in His image able to freely choose good or evil, life or death.

LS,
You just perfectly described a  throw-away-creation.

a] God decides He wants to create people.
b] He draws up a blueprint for creation.
c] He gazes in His crystal ball and sees a future filled with eternal destruction.
d] He creates us anyway.

Because of His foreknowledge He purposely created us for destruction.
He could have chosen another design that doesn't lead to ED, or no creation at all.
:2c:

This is where you and I start seeing things in a very similar light.  God being all knowing changes everything.  God created creatures who he knew in advance would reject him.  So, either he saves those people as well or he seen a purpose in creating them.  I believe he seen a purpose in creating them and Paul speaks about it here.


Romans 9
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?"
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory.

For me this supports the notion that God foreknew and created vessels in which he knew he would destroy after used for a purpose.  Isn't that God's right?  Just because some of us can't reconcile the goodness and love of God with this notion it doesn't make it any less true.  But, if you believe in ET these verses become very problematic because then you have to reconcile God hardening hearts, foreknowing, and still creating vessels he would burn for eternity.  Trying to reconcile that with God who loves agape was a significant part of my crisis of faith.  Much like a previous poster said...I now no longer accepted that 2+2=5.


Of course you could always take Milton's stance and say God foreknew but had no responsibility in their choices.  For me, that also makes no sense.  It would be like me inventing something knowing someone would use it to kill a million people but saying...hey!  I had no hand in that.  I am not responsible!

[jabcat]

I agree, that's "better" than ET.

But what if we look at less popular definitions (but match with the Greek, apart from orthodox bias and veiledness) of words such as 'torment', 'destroy', and 'eternal/everlasting'?

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm  -  also the everlasting fire at the gate and on the altar have ceased, as their purpose was fulfilled.  Jonah was in the belly of the whale "forever", etc.

Then take into account the 600 scriptures related to ultimate reconciliation listed here; 

http://sigler.org/lovelace/read_and_search.htm

IMO, then it reconciles.  It's neither ET or ED, but shows how God fulfills what He clearly states is His will.  [Even though most have to go through destruction], that all be saved.

[legoman]

This is where you and I start seeing things in a very similar light.  God being all knowing changes everything.  God created creatures who he knew in advance would reject him.  So, either he saves those people as well or he seen a purpose in creating them.  I believe he seen a purpose in creating them and Paul speaks about it here.

A thought:  we all start off rejecting him.  We each come to Him at a different time.

Romans 9
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?"
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory.

For me this supports the notion that God foreknew and created vessels in which he knew he would destroy after used for a purpose.  Isn't that God's right?  Just because some of us can't reconcile the goodness and love of God with this notion it doesn't make it any less true.  But, if you believe in ET these verses become very problematic because then you have to reconcile God hardening hearts, foreknowing, and still creating vessels he would burn for eternity.  Trying to reconcile that with God who loves agape was a significant part of my crisis of faith.  Much like a previous poster said...I now no longer accepted that 2+2=5.

The question is: what is the vessel made for destruction?  Think Saul/Paul.  Ever wonder why he had two names?

Saul was destined for destruction and will not be entering the Kingdom.  Paul was the new creation who became one of the greatest apostles.

[WhiteWings]

Last message for tonite.

James,

UR=Grace
ED=Justice
ET= :thumbdown:


Shawn,

For me this supports the notion that God foreknew and created vessels in which he knew he would destroy after used for a purpose.  Isn't that God's right?

Yes and yes.
I want to clarify that I nowhere want to suggest God doesn't know anger, wrath and punishment.
We both believe Father destroys the sinner-vessels.
It's just that I think the vessel will be restored again.

[WhiteWings]

The question is: what is the vessel made for destruction?  Think Saul/Paul.  Ever wonder why he had two names?

Saul wasn't in the Book of Life. But Paul is.
Also note that the main people in OT got their name changed just before a major task. :dontknow:

[shawn]

This is where you and I start seeing things in a very similar light.  God being all knowing changes everything.  God created creatures who he knew in advance would reject him.  So, either he saves those people as well or he seen a purpose in creating them.  I believe he seen a purpose in creating them and Paul speaks about it here.

A thought:  we all start off rejecting him.  We each come to Him at a different time.

Romans 9
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?"
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory.

For me this supports the notion that God foreknew and created vessels in which he knew he would destroy after used for a purpose.  Isn't that God's right?  Just because some of us can't reconcile the goodness and love of God with this notion it doesn't make it any less true.  But, if you believe in ET these verses become very problematic because then you have to reconcile God hardening hearts, foreknowing, and still creating vessels he would burn for eternity.  Trying to reconcile that with God who loves agape was a significant part of my crisis of faith.  Much like a previous poster said...I now no longer accepted that 2+2=5.

The question is: what is the vessel made for destruction?  Think Saul/Paul.  Ever wonder why he had two names?

Saul was destined for destruction and will not be entering the Kingdom.  Paul was the new creation who became one of the greatest apostles.

I suppose that's a possibility as well.  My old self certainly made God's power known to my new self.  That's an interesting take on a scripture I felt I had locked down.  That's the funny thing about scripture...just when you "know" what sections mean is when you are presented with an alternative view.

[herefornow]

:goodpost:, I'll probably share it.  Also, you might consider sending it to Gary Amirault.  He's very interested in peoples' various reactions to "hell" as you have revealed about yourself.  Sad, really, that you had to go through that, but God intends it for good.

God bless.

Hi, jabcat

Can you tell me how to send that post to Gary?   :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Hello.  Just copy the link of your post (right click on it and choose 'copy shortcut'), go the TM main page.  At the bottom there's a 'Contact Us' link.  You can paste the link to your post in there with a note.  He'll get it.   :thumbsup:

He has a personal interest in how the topic of eternal torment has affected people emotionally.  He would be interested in seeing what you've written.