I have been coming here off and on for several years now and just cannot seem to make the leap. When I speak of hell I have what seems to be a check in my spirit telling me its wrong but then I wonder if that's just wishful thinking. I speak of this awful place but can't imagine my loved ones being there. I hate Hell. It robs me of joy. It keeps me bound in effort. I never can meet the demands. But I am scared of releasing it. Is that sick? What is wrong with me? I cannot fathom God listening to the screams of millions forever. How can that be? I am wicked and could never do such a thing to anyone. But what if I am wrong? So confused.
God has shown me very recently that the truth sets us free, if believing in hell is a heavy burden for you then do not hesitate to lay it down at Jesus's feet and be free!
It's scary because your your flesh refuses that freedom and try to keep you enslaved.
:cloud9: Ask Him to reveal to you His unconditional love in fullness. Sooner or later, He will, just praise Him for it. When THAT is made life in you, it's a very short leap from there.
And fear hath TORMENT, and GOD has not given us a spirit of fear. Reverence of Him and His ways is the fear of God; not fearing He's going to beat you up every minute of the day and after.
Focus on Him, not on hell, let His nature be revealed to you inwardly, because His love perfected, casts out all fear. Blessings to you in your journey..... :girlheart:
You are saved by believing in Jesus. Not by understanding concepts like hell.
An article I posted in another thread:
Quote from: www.universalsalvation.orgDo you realize, that what you believe tells God what sort of person you are? Have you ever stopped to consider exactly what you do believe? Have you ever stopped and considered why you believe what you believe?
Paul said at 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things" (King James Version). The Greek word for "prove" there is dokimazete (dokimazete) from dokimazw (dokimazo) and it means to prove, to test. But what you have not been told is that it also means to approve, to approve after trial, to judge worthy. God does not want you just to prove all things, He also wants you to approve of all things as well. And that is different, because now the responsibility is upon you not just to prove what you believe, but also to approve of what you believe.
For instance, if you are in a church that teaches Hell fire and eternal suffering, (watch this very carefully) in your heart, you have to approve of that.
If you belong to a church that teaches eternal death for some, (again, watch this very carefully) in your heart, you have to approve of that. What sort of a heart could approve of Hell fire and eternal suffering?
What sort of a heart could approve of eternal death for some? The doctrine of Universal Salvation teaches that all will have eternal life, including Satan and the demons. And that one day, all will have the same nature as God. What sort of a heart could not approve of Universal Salvation, eternal life for all?
You see, God is the Ultimate and Universal Salvation is the Ultimate. Whatever you do, do not expect anything less than the Ultimate from God.
Isn't one of the greatest commands to love?
It could be just me but I think that command doesn't mean you should love=approve that 95% of humanity is being tortured in ways that we can't even comprehend.
Not that it helps you but I think you have a problem with the "approve" part.
What sort of a heart would approve of eternal death for some?
"One made of stone, an idol of the heart; not of flesh." :mshock:
peacemaker
Isn't one of the greatest commands to love?
It could be just me but I think that command doesn't mean you should love=approve that 95% of humanity is being tortured in ways that we can't even comprehend.
Not that it helps you but I think you have a problem with the "approve" part.
Whitewings
I think they do have a problem with it. The same people wince when they see a cat being run over. But it's hard to question the actions of God, who are ye to judge God or even who are ye to question the mighty learned man of God, he's gone to winston etc. So it's not the peoples fault it's the pastors, the teachers. The reason as to why the pastors teach this stuff is numerous. Some examples include, 'it's the tradditional teaching who am I to change it' view, then there's the, 'this is what the scripture teaches' view, then there is the 'I don't really care' view', then there's the I am to affraid view on all types of levels [fear of God, people, fear of dwindling church members etc] and also there is the 'change takes time' view.
Many here did not come to UR until many years, so shouldn't ET believers be given the same grace?
Change takes time and some people change quicker than others, the more grounded/stubborn types (can be a good attribute but also a bad one), the ones who don't change much are not likely to accept this change, unless they themselves change.
Quote from: thinktank on August 08, 2010, 12:21:19 AMI think they do have a problem with it.
You speak of "they" I was just talking to
waitinontheLamb
That said I agree with your post.
Thank you for the answers. I really do appreciate it. I guess I am just trying to sort it out. It's what I have known but something tells me its wrong. Something tells me God is beautiful and kind and wonderful and that He loves my family and friends even more then I do. I want to believe that my Mormon grandma is okay and my best friend who hung himself and my biological mom who died of aids because of prostitution and drug abuse. I guess I just want to be able to really love Him.
Not judging any of the people you mentioned but concider this verse:
CJB Romans 5:20 And the Torah came into the picture so that the offence would proliferate; but where sin proliferated, grace proliferated even more.
CSB Romans 5:20 The law came along to multiply the trespass. But where sin multiplied, grace multiplied even more,
DBY Romans 5:20 But law came in, in order that the offence might abound; but where sin abounded grace has overabounded,
DRA Romans 5:20 Now the law entered in, that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound.
ERV Romans 5:20 And the law came in beside, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly:
ESV Romans 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
ETH Romans 5:20 But the entrance which was of the law, (made) sin to increase; and where sin increased, there grace hath abounded:
Thank you for those. Funny thing is that I am a more despicable sinner then any of those I mentioned. But my background has told me that because I received Jesus in life I am okay and they are tormented. Once asked a pastor about my grandma who was Mormon and one of the most precious people ever in my life. Was told that if she is in hell she certainly doesn't want me to come there. Strangely enough that didn't help. She was the most beautiful person I have known and died in so much pain from breast cancer. Oh how I hope for her to have peace now.
[grace] "did much more abound"
G5248
υπερπερισσεύω
huperperisseuō
hoop-er-per-is-syoo'-o
From G5228 and G4052; to super abound: - abound much more, exceeding.
From
G5228
υπέρ
huper
hoop-er'
A primary preposition; "over", that is, (with the genitive case) of place, above, beyond, across, or causal, for the sake of, instead, regarding; with the accusative case superior to, more than. In compounds it retains many of the listed applications: - (+ exceeding abundantly) above, in (on) behalf of, beyond, by, + very chiefest, concerning, exceeding (above, -ly), for, + very highly, more (than), of, over, on the part of, for sake of, in stead, than, to (-ward), very. In compounds it retains many of the above applications.
and
G4052
περισσεύω
perisseuō
per-is-syoo'-o
From G4053; to superabound (in quantity or quality), be in excess, be superfluous; also (transitively) to cause to superabound or excel: - (make, more) abound, (have, have more) abundance, (be more) abundant, be the better, enough and to spare, exceed, excel, increase, be left, redound, remain (over and above).
grace beyond abundance--over excessive grace--does it get any better than that?
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 08, 2010, 11:23:02 AMFunny thing is that I am a more despicable sinner then any of those I mentioned.
In that case grace will abound even more for you.
Whatever the level of sin, grace will match it. Or even goes way beyond matching it.
The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin and unrighteousness
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 07, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
But what if I am wrong?
Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 01:26:13 AM
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 07, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
But what if I am wrong?
Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?
I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR. I fear being deceived and being a heretic. I fear believing what I want to believe. I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind. I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth. I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.
Those are my fears. With that said, those get lesser by the day. Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET. With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me. My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak. I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.
That there really is a hell and I give false security to people.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 01:26:13 AM
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 07, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
But what if I am wrong?
Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?
Actually this post explained it perfectly.
Quote from: shawn on August 09, 2010, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 01:26:13 AM
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 07, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
But what if I am wrong?
Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?
I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR. I fear being deceived and being a heretic. I fear believing what I want to believe. I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind. I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth. I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.
Those are my fears. With that said, those get lesser by the day. Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET. With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me. My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak. I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 09, 2010, 03:24:34 AM
I pray that God .... allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.
:thumbsup: Then you're in the right place. He will. Seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened to you. Pray for wisdom.
Quote from: shawn on August 09, 2010, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 01:26:13 AM
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 07, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
But what if I am wrong?
Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?
I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR. I fear being deceived and being a heretic. I fear believing what I want to believe. I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind. I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth. I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.
Those are my fears. With that said, those get lesser by the day. Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET. With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me. My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak. I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.
So what exactly is your position on Jesus? If you are wrong about hell does that negate your belief in Jesus and therefore damn you to hell for all eternity?
If so, please explain how.
Well I am a pretty messy Christian. Many would tell me that my lack of holiness would be an indicator of a "false convert." Who knows? All I know is that I want to be His and I hate who I have been and what my heart and mind are capable of. I blow it so very much. I just want to truly love God not tremble in fear of screaming forever in pain. I don't know how to make that work in my mind. I can't see what that could ever accomplish but to make someone be filled with even more hate. Sorry so jumbled in my thinking. So much to sort through.
God is love. I Jn 4:8
:cloud9: If He will NEVER leave you nor forsake you, wouldn't "hell" as it is understood by ET'ers, be a bit of a challenge to that? I mean, does NEVER start and stop? Blessings....
You are right and more then I can express I want ur to be truth. To do away with hell would be wonderful. I pray God will lift that fog if it truly is one and reveal himself to me. I have ordered the book whatever became of Melanie. Hopefully that will help too. Death is a powerful nemesis right now.
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 09, 2010, 07:26:24 AM
You are right and more then I can express I want ur to be truth. To do away with hell would be wonderful. I pray God will lift that fog if it truly is one and reveal himself to me. I have ordered the book whatever became of Melanie. Hopefully that will help too. Death is a powerful nemesis right now.
UR is a bit harder to prove to ME than the "no hell" part, but at least know that from what I have been able to study, there is no way in hell :laughhand: the evangelical vision of hell could be true. I have studied this day in and day out for a very long time, and I had to be SURE that there wasn't an evangelical hell before I could tell anybody else there wasn't. There is no HINT of it in the Bible.
Use the mind you were given, give up the fear for a few days, trust God's love, and start studying. I don't know how much you have actually studied, but it came down to just a few things in the end for me. It wasn't terribly difficult (the studying part) once I started. Much easier to understand than the aions, aidios, eternals, everlastings, forevers, and so on. :umnick:
If you would like to know more about how I came to believe that "hell" was a lie, I'll type a longer post. I just don't know how much you have been told or what you have studied so far.
I would love to read your testimony. I have looked at a good bit of the info on here and plan to dig in a lot deeper. I keep going back to Romans 5 and how clear Pauls statement is that all are saved. Study I will. Thanks for your encouragement. There must be a reason I am repeatedly drawn back to this topic and why whenever I speak about hell to someone its as if my spirit is crying against it.
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 09, 2010, 09:11:07 AM
I would love to read your testimony. I have looked at a good bit of the info on here and plan to dig in a lot deeper. I keep going back to Romans 5 and how clear Pauls statement is that all are saved. Study I will. Thanks for your encouragement. There must be a reason I am repeatedly drawn back to this topic and why whenever I speak about hell to someone its as if my spirit is crying against it.
Okay. No problem. I did want to gather my thoughts and then get back to you so I don't end up rambling, which I tend to do a lot. It's late here and I'm going to bed, and my internet may not be working tomorrow, but I will try and put together a short and easily-read version of my struggle with "hell" as SOON as I possibly can. :thumbsup:
God is love? :Chinscratch:
OR God is love! :clapping:
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 09, 2010, 06:48:24 AM
Well I am a pretty messy Christian. Many would tell me that my lack of holiness would be an indicator of a "false convert." Who knows? All I know is that I want to be His and I hate who I have been and what my heart and mind are capable of. I blow it so very much. I just want to truly love God not tremble in fear of screaming forever in pain. I don't know how to make that work in my mind. I can't see what that could ever accomplish but to make someone be filled with even more hate. Sorry so jumbled in my thinking. So much to sort through.
ok, but what about Jesus? I am not asking you what you think others believe about you. what do YOU believe about Jesus?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 03:49:52 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 09, 2010, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 01:26:13 AM
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 07, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
But what if I am wrong?
Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?
I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR. I fear being deceived and being a heretic. I fear believing what I want to believe. I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind. I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth. I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.
Those are my fears. With that said, those get lesser by the day. Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET. With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me. My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak. I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.
So what exactly is your position on Jesus? If you are wrong about hell does that negate your belief in Jesus and therefore damn you to hell for all eternity?
If so, please explain how.
Mainly I fear that I would mislead others. I tend to be very passionate when I believe in something strongly. And UR, if true would be the greatest revelation in the history of man. How could I not proclaim that from the rooftops? I do not want to give account for spreading a heretical view (if UR isn't true).
Quote from: shawn on August 09, 2010, 05:48:48 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 03:49:52 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 09, 2010, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 01:26:13 AM
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 07, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
But what if I am wrong?
Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?
I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR. I fear being deceived and being a heretic. I fear believing what I want to believe. I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind. I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth. I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.
Those are my fears. With that said, those get lesser by the day. Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET. With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me. My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak. I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.
So what exactly is your position on Jesus? If you are wrong about hell does that negate your belief in Jesus and therefore damn you to hell for all eternity?
If so, please explain how.
Mainly I fear that I would mislead others. I tend to be very passionate when I believe in something strongly. And UR, if true would be the greatest revelation in the history of man. How could I not proclaim that from the rooftops? I do not want to give account for spreading a heretical view (if UR isn't true).
What do you believe about Jesus?
Quote from: shawn on August 09, 2010, 05:48:48 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 03:49:52 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 09, 2010, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 01:26:13 AM
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 07, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
But what if I am wrong?
Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?
I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR. I fear being deceived and being a heretic. I fear believing what I want to believe. I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind. I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth. I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.
Those are my fears. With that said, those get lesser by the day. Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET. With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me. My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak. I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.
So what exactly is your position on Jesus? If you are wrong about hell does that negate your belief in Jesus and therefore damn you to hell for all eternity?
If so, please explain how.
Mainly I fear that I would mislead others. I tend to be very passionate when I believe in something strongly. And UR, if true would be the greatest revelation in the history of man. How could I not proclaim that from the rooftops? I do not want to give account for spreading a heretical view (if UR isn't true).
Explain why what you believe now is not misleading others.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 07:15:33 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 09, 2010, 05:48:48 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 03:49:52 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 09, 2010, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 09, 2010, 01:26:13 AM
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 07, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
But what if I am wrong?
Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?
I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR. I fear being deceived and being a heretic. I fear believing what I want to believe. I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind. I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth. I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.
Those are my fears. With that said, those get lesser by the day. Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET. With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me. My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak. I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.
So what exactly is your position on Jesus? If you are wrong about hell does that negate your belief in Jesus and therefore damn you to hell for all eternity?
If so, please explain how.
Mainly I fear that I would mislead others. I tend to be very passionate when I believe in something strongly. And UR, if true would be the greatest revelation in the history of man. How could I not proclaim that from the rooftops? I do not want to give account for spreading a heretical view (if UR isn't true).
Explain why what you believe now is not misleading others.
Why do you keep asking what I believe about Jesus? He is my Savior. Are you looking for something else? And why I'm not misleading others now is because I take no stance on the issue other than a personal belief that God doesn't torture people for eternity. Taking a stance like this...well you should be sure about what you believe and I just don't know. And I just haven't seen enough scriptural evidence to believe in UR. I want to believe in UR but I'm not sure scripture supports it. I believe when Jesus was talking about Gehenna he was speaking about perishing not purification. Who takes someone to Gehenna (the trash dump) to be purified? It makes about as much sense as taking something or a dead body there to torture it forever. Early Jews took trash and bodies to Gehenna to be destroyed not to be purified. The whole concept of Gehenna being a purgatory like place came after Jesus. The talmud is not a good source to find out what first century Jews believed about Gehenna. Lets take a look at scriptures before Jesus.
This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)
2 Baruch 59 5 But then also He showed to him the measures of the fire, also the depths of the abyss, and the weight of the winds, and the number of the drops of rain: 6 And the suppression of anger, and the multitude of long-suffering, and the truth of judgement: 7 And the root of wisdom, and the riches of understanding, and the fount of knowledge: 8 And the height of the air, and the greatness of Paradise, and the consummation Of the ages, and the beginning of the day of judgement: 9 And the number of the offerings, and the earths which have not yet come: 10 And the mouth of Gehenna, and the station of vengeance, and the place of faith, and the region of hope: 11 And the likeness of future torment, and the multitude of innumerable angels...
Revelations vs. 12-15. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.
13 Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
If we are speaking about throwing death and hades into the lake of fire (which is the final judgement...the second death) do we expect the lake of fire to purify death and hades? I can't see it. The second death is about destruction of death, satan, the fallen angels and those whose names are not written in the lambs book of life.
So, while I know my savior Jesus Christ would forgive me for misunderstanding I do not want to mislead anyone. I want so bad to believe all are saved. And maybe God will do it that way. But, I just don't see it scripturally.
Quote from Shawn "...Jesus...He is my Savior." :thumbsup:
Hi Shawn.
Have you ever considered Gehenna from the perspective of being separate from the Lake of Fire (our God is a Consuming Fire)?
Gehenna as separate could entail such things as when, to whom, and about what was Jesus referring? He said He came not except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. In the judgment of 70 AD, reportedly many did die, including religious leaders, whose bodies were then cast in shame in the fires of Gehenna.
"OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE"
HE IS A "REFINER'S FIRE"
GOD'S JUDGMENTS LIKE FIRE
UNQUENCHABLE FIRE
FURNACE OF FIRE
ETERNAL FIRE
"WHEAT AND CHAFF," "AXE," ETC.
FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
JUDGMENT discussed here at http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 03:09:46 AM
Why do you keep asking what I believe about Jesus?
Because up till now you didn't even mention Jesus. Does it bother you to have to answer?
QuoteHe is my Savior.
Does what you believe about Hell change that?
QuoteSo, while I know my savior Jesus Christ would forgive me for misunderstanding I do not want to mislead anyone. I want so bad to believe all are saved. And maybe God will do it that way. But, I just don't see it scripturally.
Mislead them to believe what? That Jesus is Saviour?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 10, 2010, 04:06:02 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 03:09:46 AM
Why do you keep asking what I believe about Jesus?
Because up till now you didn't even mention Jesus. Does it bother you to have to answer?
QuoteHe is my Savior.
Does what you believe about Hell change that?
QuoteSo, while I know my savior Jesus Christ would forgive me for misunderstanding I do not want to mislead anyone. I want so bad to believe all are saved. And maybe God will do it that way. But, I just don't see it scripturally.
Mislead them to believe what? That Jesus is Saviour?
No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it. So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior? I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way. Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers. But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out. These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it. I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of. ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit.
Let me ask you something. Let's say UR is completely false. You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike. Many buy into it. Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy? It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true? If that is your stance so be it. It's not my place to judge you. What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.
Quote from: jabcat on August 10, 2010, 03:52:34 AM
Quote from Shawn "...Jesus...He is my Savior." :thumbsup:
Hi Shawn.
Have you ever considered Gehenna from the perspective of being separate from the Lake of Fire (our God is a Consuming Fire)?
Gehenna as separate could entail such things as when, to whom, and about what was Jesus referring? He said He came not except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. In the judgment of 70 AD, reportedly many did die, including religious leaders, whose bodies were then cast in shame in the fires of Gehenna.
"OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE"
HE IS A "REFINER'S FIRE"
GOD'S JUDGMENTS LIKE FIRE
UNQUENCHABLE FIRE
FURNACE OF FIRE
ETERNAL FIRE
"WHEAT AND CHAFF," "AXE," ETC.
FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
JUDGMENT discussed here at http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
I think that is a reasonable possibility. I also think it's a reasonable possibility that he was not only referring to the judgment of 70 AD but the future judgment of mankind as a whole. This is part of the reason I believe it's very difficult to know outside of God given revelation on this subject. And while God may have revealed his plans for judgment to this group of people (and yes I believe thats possible) he hasn't yet given that to me. But, through my searching he has indeed given me something very special (how about you just trust me Shawn). Now, that I can do. That I can buy into.
If UR is indeed true I can't imagine a more beautiful ending to God's love story for mankind. If UR is true I can't imagine anything exemplifying the power of Christ's blood more profoundly. But, I can't in good conscience proclaim it from the rooftops until God has given me the revelation that many of you claim to have on the subject.
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:45:46 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 10, 2010, 03:52:34 AM
Quote from Shawn "...Jesus...He is my Savior." :thumbsup:
Hi Shawn.
Have you ever considered Gehenna from the perspective of being separate from the Lake of Fire (our God is a Consuming Fire)?
Gehenna as separate could entail such things as when, to whom, and about what was Jesus referring? He said He came not except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. In the judgment of 70 AD, reportedly many did die, including religious leaders, whose bodies were then cast in shame in the fires of Gehenna.
"OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE"
HE IS A "REFINER'S FIRE"
GOD'S JUDGMENTS LIKE FIRE
UNQUENCHABLE FIRE
FURNACE OF FIRE
ETERNAL FIRE
"WHEAT AND CHAFF," "AXE," ETC.
FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
JUDGMENT discussed here at http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
I think that is a reasonable possibility. I also think it's a reasonable possibility that he was not only referring to the judgment of 70 AD but the future judgment of mankind as a whole. This is part of the reason I believe it's very difficult to know outside of God given revelation on this subject. And while God may have revealed his plans for judgement to this group of people (and yes I believe thats possible) he hasn't yet given that to me. But, through my searching he has indeed given me something very special (how about you just trust me Shawn). Now, that I can do. That I can buy into.
If UR is indeed true I can't imagine a more beautiful ending to God's love story for mankind. If UR is true I can't imagine anything exemplifying the power of Christ's blood more profoundly. But, I can't in good conscience proclaim it from the rooftops until God has given me the revelation that many of you claim to have on the subject.
Understood and agree. :bigGrin:
I have pondered the question "what do you believe about Jesus" today as I didn't want to just throw out the pat answer we are all supposed to have ready.
Jesus is truly beautiful. He is grace and love and marvelous wonderful light. He is my hope and my joy and I would never want heaven if He were not there.
I guess in saying that it behooves me to see Him then burning people in vengeance.
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AM
No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it. So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior? I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way. Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers. But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out. These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it. I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of. ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit.
My motive was to turn the focus upon Jesus. You can believe what you like, I don't care.
Quote
Let me ask you something. Let's say UR is completely false. You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike. Many buy into it. Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy? It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true? If that is your stance so be it. It's not my place to judge you. What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.
UR is irrelevant. Jesus is the Saviour of the world, if someone believes what I have said then they will believe that it is a trustworthy thing to Confess Jesus as Lord. If what I believe is false, then it is false to say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it will be false to believe on the power of Jesus Christ.
Am I worried that I will answer to God in some negative capacity for thinking too highly of that power? No, I am not concerned about it at all. Should I be?
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 10, 2010, 06:04:51 AM
I have pondered the question "what do you believe about Jesus" today as I didn't want to just throw out the pat answer we are all supposed to have ready.
Jesus is truly beautiful. He is grace and love and marvelous wonderful light. He is my hope and my joy and I would never want heaven if He were not there.
I guess in saying that it behooves me to see Him then burning people in vengeance.
Thank you for answering.
The point I have in asking questions such as I did was to bring people to think about the reality of Jesus Christ in that capacity so that perhaps it can be considered that the wonder of Jesus Christ is pure victory.
Jesus is the Saviour of the world and he is not lukewarm, so victory amounts to 100% and not some lesser lukewarm amount.
When I hear people expressing a "fear" for believing something, I usually like to find out what it is they actually fear.
What many do not realize is that defending UR is no more fruitful than defending ET. It is about preaching what the reality of scripture is.
I have found no one even able to try to show how it is not trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord. Even if someone says that you must do that before you die on earth it doesn't work, because then you have to believe that it is NOT always trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord.
It is as simple as that to me. UR may be the label that gets associated with that truth, but I don't care about the label, I care about what scripture says. If you believe it is a trustworthy thing to confess Jesus as Lord then there is nothing to fear in believing in that power.
Quote from: herefornow on August 09, 2010, 09:41:06 AM
Quote from: waitinontheLamb on August 09, 2010, 09:11:07 AM
I would love to read your testimony. I have looked at a good bit of the info on here and plan to dig in a lot deeper. I keep going back to Romans 5 and how clear Pauls statement is that all are saved. Study I will. Thanks for your encouragement. There must be a reason I am repeatedly drawn back to this topic and why whenever I speak about hell to someone its as if my spirit is crying against it.
Okay. No problem. I did want to gather my thoughts and then get back to you so I don't end up rambling, which I tend to do a lot. It's late here and I'm going to bed, and my internet may not be working tomorrow, but I will try and put together a short and easily-read version of my struggle with "hell" as SOON as I possibly can. :thumbsup:
God is love? :Chinscratch: OR God is love! :clapping:
I'd like to see it too. :bigGrin:
I'm back. :happygrin:
Okay, here goes a "short" version of my fight with 2000 years of tradition. :soap:
I was brought up in Church. My mom got "saved" in the 70s right before I was born and started attending Independent Baptist churches and enrolled her children in very conservative Baptist schools (very patriotic types, although she was not at all patriotic herself and neither was my dad). So, I got a lot of confusing messages right from the start. The school and church also taught the rapture, which my mom thought was heresy, so I didn't (and don't) believe in it myself.
I remember a pretty peaceful time for a few years when I was very young, thinking about God and the flowers and sunshine, etc., etc. :icon_flower: But, as I got older, I started hearing about "hell." And not only hearing about it but having to watch movies like Left Behind and all the fun end-times kind of stuff that churches love. :sigh: I remember one particular sermon (the only sermon I remember from childhood) the pastor preached one day where he mentioned hearing screams from hell, wondering out-loud how it would be to suffer there. I don't think I was ever the same after that sermon. :CryBaby: My family life was dysfunctional and that pretty much kicked me over the edge. Not only was life difficult and dark down here, but the afterlife was a nightmare for most of the planet as well. Nothing in the Bible mattered to me any longer, and I hated going to church and school. I pretty much gave up on EVERYTHING. I was NOT well. Not at all. (I'm not going to get into all that :winkgrin:) But, basically, I figured the dark ruled and the dark won. That was all there was to it. I gave up piano, ballet, school, life. END.
I got into some foul things, hung out with the outcasts, just melted into the background. But, somewhere in the back of my head, hell loomed. I no longer went to church or cared about anything religious, but hell was ALWAYS in the back of my head. I cried about the people around me, I cried for myself, I cried over everything. I OBSESSED about hell; freaking out, crying over friend's souls and all that. They really loved me. :rolleye:
Fast forward through torturous years. I started sporadically going to church again. Really, only for my kids, only to find out later that my daughter had been abused by one of the church members and had been having nightmares and anxiety attacks over hell, because her dad was not "saved." I pretty much gave up on church at that point, permanently. (I still do not attend)
About that time, my dad started sending me emails and talking to me about how screwed up the churches and their doctrines were. We got into some heated arguments. I still defended hell and the basic doctrines of the church, and he kept on with the emails and the talks. At one point, I got so excited thinking that it might be true, that the church DIDN'T know what it was talking about. I felt this huge weight lifted, and I felt happy for the first time in many, MANY years. But, it was short lived. I went back into my shell, and I quit listening to him, and I just quit thinking about God, hell, heaven, afterlife, everything~~again......
It was about a year ago, when I moved back to where I grew up and where all my struggles had started, that I started having anxiety attacks and outbursts of anger. I was still trying to teach my kids the Bible, but my heart wasn't in it, and I was getting angrier and angrier. Something just didn't feel right. At one point, I got so angry, I mentally entered a very black hole that I did not come out of for 3 weeks. It was terrifying. When I finally came back to myself, I furiously started studying. I got ahold of every book, every website, every tiny piece of information that I could grasp. Unfortunately, the more I studied the angrier I got. :btantrum: I found that the church DOES lie, or at least misleads people. Perhaps not always intentionally, but they DO do it. There is no WAY they could not know the same things that I came to find out. (maybe it is the fear of going against so many years of tradition that keeps their eyes closed. I don't really know)
Anyway, one of the first things I did after studying was to sign up on CD, another forum. I began asking questions. One of them was, "why hadn't anybody, in all the years I had been in church and school, told me that the KJV (the "infallible" Bible that Independent churches have) had a footnote in Revelation 20:13 that said "hell" was the "grave?" So, hell could mean grave??!! Nobody EVERY relayed that info to me! I was angry (getting quite common, isn't it? :mblush:). Not only that, I found out that the word "hell" had been translated from FOUR other words! And, why in the world would churches bring mythology into their teachings?? The Old Testament folks weren't warned of hell. They were warned to STAY AWAY from PAGAN teachings! Yes? The Babylonians and Greeks were the ones with weird hells and nasty underworlds. The Hebrews/Jews were told to IGNORE that nonsense.
Questions started popping up. I read that "hel" was the goddess of the underworld, but also meant a covering in archaic English. The word "hell" NEVER meant anything else! Why did the translators do what they did??? I still have not received an answer that satisfies me.
The doctrine was apparently MAN-MADE, starting with Augustine and rolled right into Calvin's mind. They both pretty much decided that offending an infinite God deserved infinite punishment! That doctrine is found NOWHERE in the Bible!!! Of course, I got even angrier. I had wrestled with this doctrine for so long, and it had tormented me, my mom (who finally had a mental breakdown and died not too long ago, still SCARED to die because of the idiotic tradition's of men!!), and so many others through the centuries. Weren't we supposed to be FREED from the fear of death through Christ?
Let me ask you a question. What are the fruits of the spirit? Love, joy, peace, patience. Right? :thumbsup:
Does this doctrine bring peace to you? Has this doctrine produced peace and love for anybody?
NO!! :thumbdown:
If you have been studying, you already know that "hell" was translated from 4 words: Sheol (Hebrew), Hades (Greek mythological Hell), Tartarus (holding "cell" for fallen angels), and Gehenna (the Jerusalem garbage dump). You also might know that Jesus, when he spoke of "hell" (Gehenna) was speaking to the RELIGIOUS! Not the common man. When Jesus spoke to the non-religious, he told them they could follow him, and when they didn't want to (like the rich man that he talked to with love) he did not run after them shouting that he would have to set them on fire for eternity!! That would be the perfect time to do so, would it not? And, why would Jesus WANT to set anybody on fire for eternity? :JCThink: Is that LOVE??
I really hope you keep studying. And stay AWAY, far far away, from the Hell websites; those twisted websites that have the counters on them showing how many people have entered the flames since you opened the site up. Yeesh! Disgusting. These websites are nothing more than pagan mythology.
I will link a website here for you that helped me a little. It is a non-universalist site from evangelical types who don't believe in the traditional hell at ALL.
http://www.bibletopics.com/BibleStudy/149.htm
I also talked to my mom right before she died and she said that she knew of ONE evangelical pastor she used to listen to that didn't believe in it either. But, I guess pastors can't really say anything, even if they don't believe in hell. They would lose their jobs, friends, whatever. That's a big deal to a pastor.
Anyway, I wish I could help you. I really don't know how, other than to tell you to keep the fruits of the spirit in mind at all times. Check man-made doctrines against the Spirit. Study what you can, even if you can only handle a little bit. It is better than staying in the dark. :thumbsup:
Many hugs to you.
(did you get that I was angry? :laughing7:. You can't stay angry forever, though :dontknow:)
(fixed link :bigGrin: - jabcat)
:goodpost:, I'll probably share it. Also, you might consider sending it to Gary Amirault. He's very interested in peoples' various reactions to "hell" as you have revealed about yourself. Sad, really, that you had to go through that, but God intends it for good.
God bless.
Quote from: jabcat on August 10, 2010, 08:02:46 AM
:goodpost:, I'll probably share it. Also, you might consider sending it to Gary Amirault. He's very interested in peoples' various reactions to "hell" as you have revealed about yourself. Sad, really, that you had to go through that, but God intends it for good.
God bless.
:thanks: , jabcat (and thanks for fixing the link :thumbsup:)
I can probably send it to Gary when I get back into town next week. I really do hope it helps somebody out there. I know sometimes we think we are the only ones going through "hell," but when we get out of that darkness we need to remember there are others still stuck inside whom we might be able to help, because we went through the same thing.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 10, 2010, 06:17:57 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AM
No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it. So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior? I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way. Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers. But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out. These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it. I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of. ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit.
My motive was to turn the focus upon Jesus. You can believe what you like, I don't care.
Quote
Let me ask you something. Let's say UR is completely false. You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike. Many buy into it. Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy? It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true? If that is your stance so be it. It's not my place to judge you. What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.
UR is irrelevant. Jesus is the Saviour of the world, if someone believes what I have said then they will believe that it is a trustworthy thing to Confess Jesus as Lord. If what I believe is false, then it is false to say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it will be false to believe on the power of Jesus Christ.
Am I worried that I will answer to God in some negative capacity for thinking too highly of that power? No, I am not concerned about it at all. Should I be?
Only you can answer that for yourself. But, I choose to listen to this verse. Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." KJV
Sometimes I believe we try to serve a version of God that we can wrap our finite minds around. I make every attempt not to try to fit God into my manmade box. I want truth not just the truth I find acceptable.
And generally I know when someone is posturing for a point. I am here to gain truth not really to debate. I knew where you were going with your questioning before you went there. I believe in the power of Jesus, my savior, my hope and it's only through faith in his sacrifice for our sins, his blood on the cross that we are saved. How God chooses to apply the blood of Christ is something I am searching out. While I know God wants to save all of mankind, I'm not convinced that he does so.
Iron sharpening iron and I have little interest in anything other than that.
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 03:09:41 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 10, 2010, 06:17:57 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AM
No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it. So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior? I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way. Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers. But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out. These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it. I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of. ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit.
My motive was to turn the focus upon Jesus. You can believe what you like, I don't care.
Quote
Let me ask you something. Let's say UR is completely false. You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike. Many buy into it. Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy? It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true? If that is your stance so be it. It's not my place to judge you. What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.
UR is irrelevant. Jesus is the Saviour of the world, if someone believes what I have said then they will believe that it is a trustworthy thing to Confess Jesus as Lord. If what I believe is false, then it is false to say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it will be false to believe on the power of Jesus Christ.
Am I worried that I will answer to God in some negative capacity for thinking too highly of that power? No, I am not concerned about it at all. Should I be?
Only you can answer that for yourself. But, I choose to listen to this verse. Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." KJV
Sometimes I believe we try to serve a version of God that we can wrap our finite minds around. I make every attempt not to try to fit God into my manmade box. I want truth not just the truth I find acceptable.
And generally I know when someone is posturing for a point. I am here to gain truth not really to debate. I knew where you were going with your questioning before you went there. I believe in the power of Jesus, my savior, my hope and it's only through faith in his sacrifice for our sins, his blood on the cross that we are saved. How God chooses to apply the blood of Christ is something I am searching out. While I know God wants to save all of mankind, I'm not convinced that he does so.
Iron sharpening iron and I have little interest in anything other than that.
That is fine, I was answering your question that you asked me. Where I was headed was exactly what I said, you can believe what you like.
If someone doesn't believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord then they shouldn't get so uptight when asked to explain why that is. Indeed, sharpen the iron or quit pretending to be someone your not here.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 10, 2010, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 03:09:41 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 10, 2010, 06:17:57 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AM
No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it. So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior? I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way. Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers. But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out. These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it. I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of. ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit.
My motive was to turn the focus upon Jesus. You can believe what you like, I don't care.
Quote
Let me ask you something. Let's say UR is completely false. You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike. Many buy into it. Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy? It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true? If that is your stance so be it. It's not my place to judge you. What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.
UR is irrelevant. Jesus is the Saviour of the world, if someone believes what I have said then they will believe that it is a trustworthy thing to Confess Jesus as Lord. If what I believe is false, then it is false to say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it will be false to believe on the power of Jesus Christ.
Am I worried that I will answer to God in some negative capacity for thinking too highly of that power? No, I am not concerned about it at all. Should I be?
Only you can answer that for yourself. But, I choose to listen to this verse. Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." KJV
Sometimes I believe we try to serve a version of God that we can wrap our finite minds around. I make every attempt not to try to fit God into my manmade box. I want truth not just the truth I find acceptable.
And generally I know when someone is posturing for a point. I am here to gain truth not really to debate. I knew where you were going with your questioning before you went there. I believe in the power of Jesus, my savior, my hope and it's only through faith in his sacrifice for our sins, his blood on the cross that we are saved. How God chooses to apply the blood of Christ is something I am searching out. While I know God wants to save all of mankind, I'm not convinced that he does so.
Iron sharpening iron and I have little interest in anything other than that.
That is fine, I was answering your question that you asked me. Where I was headed was exactly what I said, you can believe what you like.
If someone doesn't believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord then they shouldn't get so uptight when asked to explain why that is. Indeed, sharpen the iron or quit pretending to be someone your not here.
Paul I find your general tone unpleasant. I have no use for useless debate with someone using debating ploys to make a point. I'm not uptight about talking about Jesus. I am uptight about someone questioning my belief in order to debate trap. I have been around the block a time or two and I recognize it when I see it.
As in trying to be someone I'm not? Not sure what you mean. I believe I'm extremely transparent maybe to a fault. I let people know exactly what I think, my opinions and I don't put on a righteous face for anyone. I don't hide behind flowery poetic holy sounding language to make vague points. I am a man in love with Christ and looking for answers. With that said, I am human and I have edges that need smoothed out. If I didn't I would have probably ignored your post entirely and moved about to posts that I felt were more productive. You will have to excuse me if I ignore your future posts as I find debating with you to be fruitless.
Herefornow I was moved by your story. I consider what you described a form of spiritual abuse. While I'm not convinced in UR at this point I don't believe God burns anyone forever. This isn't anything new. Men have twisted the words of God for as long as man has had the words of God. Men have used Godly things for fleshly benefits. Power, control, money etc and so on. Why was Jesus so erked with the religious leaders of his day? Why were they a den of vipers? Do you see a pattern when we speak about current religious leaders?
So, you are at a crossroad. You can believe we were formed out of colliding atoms in a vacuum (which to my scientific mind is ridiculous)...or you can believe in a Creator. When I was at that point in my life I knew by looking around me and the complexity and the obvious design of life that we were created. And I also realized that a creator cares for and uses his creations. The rest has been God given revelation for me through prayer and study. A book that might help you is an oldy but a goody...Signature of God by Grant Jefferies. It helped me out a great deal. Once your faith is once again restored in God and Christ you can begin the process of healing from spiritual abuse heaped upon you by the religious. You can seperate the manmade garbage from truth about our Savior. I am still on this road and will likely be til the day I leave this planet. With that said, I understand...I really do and my heart goes out to you. But, I'm convinced that if you search you shall find. God is true his word.
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AMI have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out. These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it.
Amen.
Shawn, I think you & I are very much on the same page. I used to be very afraid about being deceived, because many times the bibles tells us not to be deceived, not to get carried away. And who can claim to be 100% right?
But God has given me peace in knowing that He does not want us to be deceived either. I've always believed "it's all about the relationship" and what He really wants is for us to seek, to ask, to knock. I think as long as we guard our hearts and prayerfully remain open to Him to either give or take away, we are doing ok. It's a simple prayer to ask for His protection, and I believe He answers that prayer.
Peace to you bro; God bless you.
Quote from: LS on August 10, 2010, 10:39:20 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AMI have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out. These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it.
Amen.
Shawn, I think you & I are very much on the same page. I used to be very afraid about being deceived, because many times the bibles tells us not to be deceived, not to get carried away. And who can claim to be 100% right?
But God has given me peace in knowing that He does not want us to be deceived either. I've always believed "it's all about the relationship" and what He really wants is for us to seek, to ask, to knock. I think as long as we guard our hearts and prayerfully remain open to Him to either give or take away, we are doing ok. It's a simple prayer to ask for His protection, and I believe He answers that prayer.
Peace to you bro; God bless you.
I really haven't read a post from you that I disagreed with. I also try to be careful not to be deceived. I also try not to teach on a topic I have not solidified in my spirit. What I do know is that I trust God and I leave to God what is God's. That includes how he works out judgment. I agree it's all about relationship. I believe faith and relationship are the root of all good fruit. Everything good stems from those two things.
I also believe it's better to be agnostic on a particular subject than verbal and incorrect. I don't believe God faults us for just trusting in his agape love for us. I don't believe God expects us to have this all figured out.
That was a great post herefornow. Thanks for sharing!
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 10:08:51 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 10, 2010, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 03:09:41 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 10, 2010, 06:17:57 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AM
No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it. So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior? I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way. Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers. But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out. These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it. I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of. ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit.
My motive was to turn the focus upon Jesus. You can believe what you like, I don't care.
Quote
Let me ask you something. Let's say UR is completely false. You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike. Many buy into it. Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy? It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true? If that is your stance so be it. It's not my place to judge you. What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.
UR is irrelevant. Jesus is the Saviour of the world, if someone believes what I have said then they will believe that it is a trustworthy thing to Confess Jesus as Lord. If what I believe is false, then it is false to say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it will be false to believe on the power of Jesus Christ.
Am I worried that I will answer to God in some negative capacity for thinking too highly of that power? No, I am not concerned about it at all. Should I be?
Only you can answer that for yourself. But, I choose to listen to this verse. Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." KJV
Sometimes I believe we try to serve a version of God that we can wrap our finite minds around. I make every attempt not to try to fit God into my manmade box. I want truth not just the truth I find acceptable.
And generally I know when someone is posturing for a point. I am here to gain truth not really to debate. I knew where you were going with your questioning before you went there. I believe in the power of Jesus, my savior, my hope and it's only through faith in his sacrifice for our sins, his blood on the cross that we are saved. How God chooses to apply the blood of Christ is something I am searching out. While I know God wants to save all of mankind, I'm not convinced that he does so.
Iron sharpening iron and I have little interest in anything other than that.
That is fine, I was answering your question that you asked me. Where I was headed was exactly what I said, you can believe what you like.
If someone doesn't believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord then they shouldn't get so uptight when asked to explain why that is. Indeed, sharpen the iron or quit pretending to be someone your not here.
Paul I find your general tone unpleasant. I have no use for useless debate with someone using debating ploys to make a point. I'm not uptight about talking about Jesus. I am uptight about someone questioning my belief in order to debate trap. I have been around the block a time or two and I recognize it when I see it.
As in trying to be someone I'm not? Not sure what you mean. I believe I'm extremely transparent maybe to a fault. I let people know exactly what I think, my opinions and I don't put on a righteous face for anyone. I don't hide behind flowery poetic holy sounding language to make vague points. I am a man in love with Christ and looking for answers. With that said, I am human and I have edges that need smoothed out. If I didn't I would have probably ignored your post entirely and moved about to posts that I felt were more productive. You will have to excuse me if I ignore your future posts as I find debating with you to be fruitless.
You do not have to answer anything, You can say what you like about my tone, you are wrong, you simply find it conveneient to make those assertions because it excuses your emotions from answering questions.
But getting uptight because I dare question you about what you believe is your problem, not mine.
As far as your supposed transparency, I'm not buying it, but you can say whatever you like.
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AM
Let me ask you something. Let's say UR is completely false. You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike. Many buy into it. Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy? It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true? If that is your stance so be it. It's not my place to judge you. What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.
This is a good question Shawn. If I have to give account to God for spreading the good news of UR - so be it. If it turns out to be wrong, I would realize I was deceived. I'm sure I would also be very sorry and I would beg for forgiveness. I would also be mad at all the scripture and studies that shows universal salvation is true. I would ask God why He said it is His will to save all men but He didn't do it.
DECEPTIONPeople are deceived on various points and topics. Perhaps we would agree the eternal hell believers are deceived. People are deceived all over the world because there are a thousand different religions and they all say the other guy is wrong. Logically, most or all of them are deceived. Scripture even says the whole world will be deceived by Satan.
Here's the thing about deception:
it is not your fault if you are deceived! How can you know if you are deceived? You can't! That is what deception is. You only learn after the fact. And then you still might be deceived on something else.
An example: Parents tell their children Santa Claus is going to bring them lots of presents if they are good. Then on Christmas morning, sure enough they get lots of presents. That child is deceived.
But its not his fault. That's the nature of deception.
So why is it any different in "church". People say you better not become deceived or you will go to hell (or annihilation or you'll "give account" or whatever). That's ridiculous. No one can stop themselves from being being deceived. That is the nature of deception.
It deceives you and you don't even know it!This in itself is major proof for universal salvation. Why would God setup a system in which you are required to know or do or accept or believe the right thing, without making it exactly crystal clear what that right thing is, all the while telling us that the whole world is deceived?
Either God saves us all or God is a big meanie.
Quote from: legoman on August 10, 2010, 11:54:52 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AM
Let me ask you something. Let's say UR is completely false. You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike. Many buy into it. Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy? It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true? If that is your stance so be it. It's not my place to judge you. What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.
This is a good question Shawn. If I have to give account to God for spreading the good news of UR - so be it. If it turns out to be wrong, I would realize I was deceived. I'm sure I would also be very sorry and I would beg for forgiveness. I would also be mad at all the scripture and studies that shows universal salvation is true. I would ask God why He said it is His will to save all men but He didn't do it.
DECEPTION
People are deceived on various points and topics. Perhaps we would agree the eternal hell believers are deceived. People are deceived all over the world because there are a thousand different religions and they all say the other guy is wrong. Logically, most or all of them are deceived. Scripture even says the whole world will be deceived by Satan.
Here's the thing about deception: it is not your fault if you are deceived! How can you know if you are deceived? You can't! That is what deception is. You only learn after the fact. And then you still might be deceived on something else.
An example: Parents tell their children Santa Claus is going to bring them lots of presents if they are good. Then on Christmas morning, sure enough they get lots of presents. That child is deceived. But its not his fault. That's the nature of deception.
So why is it any different in "church". People say you better not become deceived or you will go to hell (or annihilation or you'll "give account" or whatever). That's ridiculous. No one can stop themselves from being being deceived. That is the nature of deception. It deceives you and you don't even know it!
This in itself is major proof for universal salvation. Why would God setup a system in which you are required to know or do or accept or believe the right thing, without making it exactly crystal clear what that right thing is, all the while telling us that the whole world is deceived?
Either God saves us all or God is a big meanie.
I can agree with much of that. But, I don't agree with the last statement. If God chooses to save some and allow others to perish because of unforgiven sin then who am I to question that? I see nothing in scripture that supports ET therefore I do not believe it.
I see many of your points about deception. I'm sure I am deceived on some subjects as well. I do wonder about our responsibility in the matter. For me, and I can only speak for me I try to teach/instruct younger believers/nonbelievers on those things that I know in my heart to be true and can be verified by scripture. Then there are things in my spirit that I believe but do not teach because the Bible is silent on those subjects. There are also things that make sense and "feel right" that I also don't teach unless they have significant scriptural support. I'm not saying UR is without scriptural support but for me at this point I see more support for ED. But, I don't teach on either. My official stance is "I don't know and I trust God". Some might think that to be a cowardly stance. But, I would rather take an agnostic stance than an incorrect stance that might mislead.
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 12:08:35 AM
I don't teach on either. My official stance is "I don't know and I trust God". Some might think that to be a cowardly stance. But, I would rather take an agnostic stance than an incorrect stance that might mislead.
I agree. I'm the same way on some topics, UR just isn't one of them. God has worked clearly and directly in my life surrounding it, and until He does that for you - either on this side, or the other - then I agree with your stance. It's hard to go wrong trusting God, asking Him for wisdom and understanding, and casting all our cares on Him.
Quote from: jabcat on August 11, 2010, 12:26:01 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 12:08:35 AM
I don't teach on either. My official stance is "I don't know and I trust God". Some might think that to be a cowardly stance. But, I would rather take an agnostic stance than an incorrect stance that might mislead.
It's hard to go wrong trusting God, asking Him for wisdom and understanding, and casting all our cares on Him.
This is the point I was heading for which was prompted by the thread title if nothing else.
The label UR is something that 100 people can have a different perspective on. If someone finds it scary to believe a label, then I have no problems there because we shouldn't be trying to sell a label in the first place.
We shouldn't be asking if someone believes in UR or saying someone should believe a label called UR, the question to present to someone who finds something scary along these lines is to ask a question that produces what the facts are from scripture.
So that is why I have asked people what they think about Jesus and to see if they believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord. I believe the answer is YES which to me takes away any fear that would be associated with the understanding of Jesus power as Saviour of the world.
Of course people can think and react as they will, I find all this fascinating.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 11, 2010, 12:39:35 AM
I have asked people what they think about Jesus and to see if they believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord. I believe the answer is YES which to me takes away any fear that would be associated with the understanding of Jesus power as Saviour of the world.
Agreed there's a point there...always, trust - He knows what He's doing.
Quote from: jabcat on August 11, 2010, 12:47:48 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 11, 2010, 12:39:35 AM
I have asked people what they think about Jesus and to see if they believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord. I believe the answer is YES which to me takes away any fear that would be associated with the understanding of Jesus power as Saviour of the world.
Agreed there's a point there...always, trust - He knows what He's doing.
It is always trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord. The problem very few do this in this lifetime. To extrapolate the blood of Christ to unbelievers after death is a leap I'm not ready to take. But, I will continue to pray and study on the subject. I pray for revelation.
Quote from: jabcat on August 11, 2010, 12:26:01 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 12:08:35 AM
I don't teach on either. My official stance is "I don't know and I trust God". Some might think that to be a cowardly stance. But, I would rather take an agnostic stance than an incorrect stance that might mislead.
I agree. I'm the same way on some topics, UR just isn't one of them. God has worked clearly and directly in my life surrounding it, and until He does that for you - either on this side, or the other - then I agree with your stance. It's hard to go wrong trusting God, asking Him for wisdom and understanding, and casting all our cares on Him.
:thumbsup: I whole-heartedly agree as well.
Orthopraxy Supercedes Orthodoxy
Matthew 22:34-39; Concordant Literal Translation...
34 Now the Pharisees, hearing that He muzzles the Sadducees, were gathered at the same place.
35 And one of them, learned in the law, trying Him, inquires,
36 "Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"
37 Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with you whole comprehension.
38 This is the great and foremost precept.
39 Yet the second is like it: 'You shall be loving your associate as yourself.'
Romans 13:8-10; Concordant Literal Translation...
8 To no one owe anything, except to be loving one another, for he who is loving another has fulfilled law.
9 For this: "You shall not commit adultery," "you shall not murder," "you shall not steal," "you shall not testify falsely," "you shall not covet," and if there is any other precept, it is summed up in this saying, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."
10 Love is not working evil to an associate. The complement, then, of law, is love.
The foremost and primary commandments are to love God and to love one another. In fact, the whole law is summed up in the command to love one another. Notice this is not so much a list of facts to learn. It is not some doctrinaire. This is relational behavior. To be in the similitude of God, bearing His likeness, is have an identity of love overflowing, even unto our enemies.
Galatians 6:7-8; Concordant Literal Translation...
7 Be not deceived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also,
8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian.
The context makes clear that to be, "Not deceived" is a matter of behavior, that is, works of the flesh or harvest of the Spirit. It's not so much of doctrine, or trusting in certain information obtained. You think the way you do.
1 Corinthians 8:1-3, 6-7; Concordant Literal Translation...
1 ...We are aware that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, yet love builds up.
2 If anyone is presuming to know anything, he knew not as yet according as he must know.
3 Now if anyone is loving God, this one is known by Him.
6 ...for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
7 But not in all is there this knowledge.
The carnal mind wants elevated to where everything ends in it. But, this rearranges the order of our being according to the death in Adam. In the Divine schematic the psyche is to be subservient to the spirit. The law (which is of mental apprehension) cannot make the ends perfect. "Through deeds of the law nothing is perfected." This is because, "God is love." Only the infusion of another higher life can raise us out of this Adamic nature in which everything dies. "If there was a law (an instruction) that could give life, it would have been given." To learn more and try harder can never raise us into a higher dimension in the manifestation of God. No disciplined path of anything can bring the voice of God into us. "Through works of law shall no flesh be justified ("declared righteous.)"
Understand, the period of time in which we transition into the Millennium, what happens in that period as the saints, God's Royal Priesthood, comes to reign in all the earth, is near at hand eschatology. Then there are those things of eschatology more distant, teleology; like, "What is the final disposition of the wicked?" -- these are prophetic understandings for us to search out. We look this way and that, to grasp what is Written, and find what the Lord will show us (though not everyone is deeply desirous of such knowledge.) But, it is primarily how we treat one another that determines the anointing on our lives. "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
^ Formidable post!
Quote from: legoman on August 10, 2010, 11:54:52 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AM
Let me ask you something. Let's say UR is completely false. You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike. Many buy into it. Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy? It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true? If that is your stance so be it. It's not my place to judge you. What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.
This is a good question Shawn. If I have to give account to God for spreading the good news of UR - so be it. If it turns out to be wrong, I would realize I was deceived. I'm sure I would also be very sorry and I would beg for forgiveness. I would also be mad at all the scripture and studies that shows universal salvation is true. I would ask God why He said it is His will to save all men but He didn't do it.
"
I am God, and
there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times
the things that are not
yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure..." (Isaiah 46:9-10, AV)
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to
every 3956*
creature 2937**." (Mark 16:15, AV)
* "
every" = Strongs Greek #3956
pasAuthorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 1243
AV — all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no +3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever +3739 +302 3, always +1223 3, daily +2250 2, any thing 2, no +3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26
** "
creature" = Strong's #2937
ktisisAuthorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 19
AV — creature 11, creation 6, building 1, ordinance 1
According to those who believe in ceaseless torture for ever, they call many, if not most, of humanity "damned." Even they would agree that God already knows who is saved and who is damned. So, if we obey Jesus' command to preach the GOOD NEWS to "every creature" God has made us to bear false witness to the damned for whom the truth is the WORST NEWS POSSIBLE. He not only made us liars, but we make God to be a schizophrenic sadist, whispering into the ears of His permanent torture victims, "I love you. I love you. I love you."
If, according to the good news we told them, God forgave their sins, He would have no reason to continue torturing them. If according to the good news we told them, God was satisfied with Christ paying the penalty for their sins, He would have no reason to continue torturing them. So here we have a God Who never forgives and is never satisfied, whispering "I love you" to His torture victims! As if that wasn't enough, He not only makes us liars, He will make us into His own image and likeness. That means we will become Master Torturers also, that is, sadistic schizoids.
Can you make up your mind whether this bothers your conscience or not? Maybe we should do as the elder apostle told the younger apostle (about 55 yrs old) Timothy...
1 Timothy 4:9-11; Concordant Literal Translation...
9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we
rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.11
These things be charging and teaching.
Can you make up your mind whether this bothers your conscience or not? Maybe we should do as the elder apostle told the younger apostle (about 55 yrs old) Timothy...
Are you speaking to me reformer? I do not believe in ET. Yes, my mind is made up about that.
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 10:30:36 PM
Herefornow I was moved by your story. I consider what you described a form of spiritual abuse. While I'm not convinced in UR at this point I don't believe God burns anyone forever. This isn't anything new. Men have twisted the words of God for as long as man has had the words of God. Men have used Godly things for fleshly benefits. Power, control, money etc and so on. Why was Jesus so erked with the religious leaders of his day? Why were they a den of vipers? Do you see a pattern when we speak about current religious leaders?
So, you are at a crossroad. You can believe we were formed out of colliding atoms in a vacuum (which to my scientific mind is ridiculous)...or you can believe in a Creator. When I was at that point in my life I knew by looking around me and the complexity and the obvious design of life that we were created. And I also realized that a creator cares for and uses his creations. The rest has been God given revelation for me through prayer and study. A book that might help you is an oldy but a goody...Signature of God by Grant Jefferies. It helped me out a great deal. Once your faith is once again restored in God and Christ you can begin the process of healing from spiritual abuse heaped upon you by the religious. You can seperate the manmade garbage from truth about our Savior. I am still on this road and will likely be til the day I leave this planet. With that said, I understand...I really do and my heart goes out to you. But, I'm convinced that if you search you shall find. God is true his word.
Once my faith is restored.......
I hadn't thought of it as having been lost. Something to ponder. I guess I still don't trust that God is good, necessarily, or even believe he exists sometimes. I'm in a hard place, but I am still learning, and I haven't given up. Thanks for the post. :smile:
Quote from: herefornow on August 11, 2010, 06:32:19 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 10:30:36 PM
Herefornow I was moved by your story. I consider what you described a form of spiritual abuse. While I'm not convinced in UR at this point I don't believe God burns anyone forever. This isn't anything new. Men have twisted the words of God for as long as man has had the words of God. Men have used Godly things for fleshly benefits. Power, control, money etc and so on. Why was Jesus so erked with the religious leaders of his day? Why were they a den of vipers? Do you see a pattern when we speak about current religious leaders?
So, you are at a crossroad. You can believe we were formed out of colliding atoms in a vacuum (which to my scientific mind is ridiculous)...or you can believe in a Creator. When I was at that point in my life I knew by looking around me and the complexity and the obvious design of life that we were created. And I also realized that a creator cares for and uses his creations. The rest has been God given revelation for me through prayer and study. A book that might help you is an oldy but a goody...Signature of God by Grant Jefferies. It helped me out a great deal. Once your faith is once again restored in God and Christ you can begin the process of healing from spiritual abuse heaped upon you by the religious. You can seperate the manmade garbage from truth about our Savior. I am still on this road and will likely be til the day I leave this planet. With that said, I understand...I really do and my heart goes out to you. But, I'm convinced that if you search you shall find. God is true his word.
Once my faith is restored.......
I hadn't thought of it as having been lost. Something to ponder. I guess I still don't trust that God is good, necessarily, or even believe he exists sometimes. I'm in a hard place, but I am still learning, and I haven't given up. Thanks for the post. :smile:
No problem. This is what it's all about. Believers supporting other believers...holding each other up when needed. I really relate to those with doubt issues as I have been there and done that so they tend to tug on my heart. The anxiety I felt when I questioned his existence and goodness was overwhelming. But, I'm not sure how any believer escapes that stage. Anyone who has been taught ET and tries to reconcil that to God who loves agape is going to have some cognitive dissonance. It should trouble their soul greatly. I have faith that you are merely on that path and God will reveal his goodness to you. He did so to me through great mercy. If I told you my life story you would know how I relate to Paul when I say I am right with the greatest of sinners. Yet, God so many times showed me magnificant and undeniable mercy to bring me to a place of faith. I do not doubt his goodness or his agape love for man.
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 08:21:21 AM
If I told you my life story you would know how I relate to Paul when I say I am right with the greatest of sinners. Yet, God so many times showed me magnificant and undeniable mercy to bring me to a place of faith. I do not doubt his goodness or his agape love for man.
I would like to hear your story someday, if you're ever ready. I have a sense that through your trials, you have utterly been stripped down, and He is rebuilding you again. You seem to me to now be on a very solid foundation, and all the other "stuff" is coming at His pace. I could be wildly off-target, but that's the feeling I've had reading your posts. :)
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 08:21:21 AM
This is what it's all about. Believers supporting other believers...holding each other up when needed.
Amen.
Quote from: LS on August 11, 2010, 06:03:34 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 08:21:21 AM
If I told you my life story you would know how I relate to Paul when I say I am right with the greatest of sinners. Yet, God so many times showed me magnificant and undeniable mercy to bring me to a place of faith. I do not doubt his goodness or his agape love for man.
I would like to hear your story someday, if you're ever ready. I have a sense that through your trials, you have utterly been stripped down, and He is rebuilding you again. You seem to me to now be on a very solid foundation, and all the other "stuff" is coming at His pace. I could be wildly off-target, but that's the feeling I've had reading your posts. :)
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 08:21:21 AM
This is what it's all about. Believers supporting other believers...holding each other up when needed.
Amen.
No, you are right on target. I have been broken, stripped and laid bare before him. I have been utterly humbled and God has used pain as my teacher. And you are very right about the fact that God is rebuilding me from the ground up. I won't hijack this thread with my story but I am always glad to share it to those it might encourage. I will put it together soon in the testimony section.
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 12:08:35 AM
Quote from: legoman on August 10, 2010, 11:54:52 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 10, 2010, 05:31:15 AM
Let me ask you something. Let's say UR is completely false. You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike. Many buy into it. Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy? It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true? If that is your stance so be it. It's not my place to judge you. What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.
This is a good question Shawn. If I have to give account to God for spreading the good news of UR - so be it. If it turns out to be wrong, I would realize I was deceived. I'm sure I would also be very sorry and I would beg for forgiveness. I would also be mad at all the scripture and studies that shows universal salvation is true. I would ask God why He said it is His will to save all men but He didn't do it.
DECEPTION
People are deceived on various points and topics. Perhaps we would agree the eternal hell believers are deceived. People are deceived all over the world because there are a thousand different religions and they all say the other guy is wrong. Logically, most or all of them are deceived. Scripture even says the whole world will be deceived by Satan.
Here's the thing about deception: it is not your fault if you are deceived! How can you know if you are deceived? You can't! That is what deception is. You only learn after the fact. And then you still might be deceived on something else.
An example: Parents tell their children Santa Claus is going to bring them lots of presents if they are good. Then on Christmas morning, sure enough they get lots of presents. That child is deceived. But its not his fault. That's the nature of deception.
So why is it any different in "church". People say you better not become deceived or you will go to hell (or annihilation or you'll "give account" or whatever). That's ridiculous. No one can stop themselves from being being deceived. That is the nature of deception. It deceives you and you don't even know it!
This in itself is major proof for universal salvation. Why would God setup a system in which you are required to know or do or accept or believe the right thing, without making it exactly crystal clear what that right thing is, all the while telling us that the whole world is deceived?
Either God saves us all or God is a big meanie.
I can agree with much of that. But, I don't agree with the last statement. If God chooses to save some and allow others to perish because of unforgiven sin then who am I to question that? I see nothing in scripture that supports ET therefore I do not believe it.
I see many of your points about deception. I'm sure I am deceived on some subjects as well. I do wonder about our responsibility in the matter. For me, and I can only speak for me I try to teach/instruct younger believers/nonbelievers on those things that I know in my heart to be true and can be verified by scripture. Then there are things in my spirit that I believe but do not teach because the Bible is silent on those subjects. There are also things that make sense and "feel right" that I also don't teach unless they have significant scriptural support. I'm not saying UR is without scriptural support but for me at this point I see more support for ED. But, I don't teach on either. My official stance is "I don't know and I trust God". Some might think that to be a cowardly stance. But, I would rather take an agnostic stance than an incorrect stance that might mislead.
Hi Shawn,
Yeah I think my last point "God either saves us all or is a big meanie" is more directed at the eternal torment crowd (which I realize you don't believe in ET). But even annihilation, while more merciful, doesn't fit. If annihilation is true, then God, the great creator of all, purposely created some of us to be thrown away forever. God specifically tells us that death has no victory and death is destroyed - so how can some be dead forever (annihilated)?
Back on the deception point for a moment - when we are deceived we don't know it - but there is something that will always cut through the deception - the truth. Of course it is hard to determine the truth. But it can be determined due to the laws of logic, the laws of reason, and the laws of non-contradiction. That is the advantage of the truth.
Take a benign example: someone is teaching people that 2+2=5. If you don't ever think about it or question that teaching, you might believe that. But after working with the concept for a while, you might get some questions in the back of your mind that don't make sense. If you question 2+2=5 at all, you quickly realize that it is false (and you have been deceived if that is what you believed).
Consider the child who learns of Santa Claus. It all sounds great when you are young and unquestioning. But as you get older you start to see some problems. How does Santa Clause get all those presents on his sleigh? How does Santa Clause fly around to ALL the houses of the world in one night? Why does Santa look different at all the shopping malls we go to? etc, etc. And to perpetuate the myth, the parents have to keep coming up with even more extraordinary and contradictory claims to keep the deception going. Eventually the deception crumbles under its own weight.
That is what the church is doing and that is why there is a thousand different beliefs on what hell is. It is all contradictory nonsense.
As I said with annihilation, it too contradicts the very purpose that Christ came for: He came to destroy death, make all righteous and all alive. It also presupposes that God is unable to convert some people, when we have a very plain biblical example of God converting Saul (the self-proclaimed "chief of sinners") into the great apostle Paul.
Now if God asks me to give account for what I have spoken on these forums (if you want to call this "teaching") I know I can simply say that I was spreading the truth as I know it with the purpose to help others. It is about intent.
Quote from: legoman on August 12, 2010, 03:10:07 PMGod specifically tells us that death has no victory and death is destroyed - so how can some be dead forever (annihilated)?
Dead gets destroyed. Loses it's sting.
I can also read it as: Death won't kill anymore. Dead is defeated. No more victories. But those already dead stay dead.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 03:51:45 PM
Quote from: legoman on August 12, 2010, 03:10:07 PMGod specifically tells us that death has no victory and death is destroyed - so how can some be dead forever (annihilated)?
Dead gets destroyed. Loses it's sting.
I can also read it as: Death won't kill anymore. Dead is defeated. No more victories. But those already dead stay dead.
But then I would say: if some are still dead, death is still in existence therefore death has not been destroyed. This is in contradiction with what Jesus stated He came to do.
True.
To me, believing eternal torment or annihilation is true is the same as believing Santa Claus exists or 2+2=5.
It just doesn't add up.
Quote from: legoman on August 12, 2010, 03:10:07 PM
But even annihilation, while more merciful, doesn't fit. If annihilation is true, then God, the great creator of all, purposely created some of us to be thrown away forever.
I know you directed this to Shawn, but I am a firm believer in eternal destruction, so I'd like to give my response to your question, if I may.
I don't think God purposely created any of us to be "thrown away forever." However, I believe we were created in His image able to freely choose good or evil, life or death.
Quote from: legoman on August 12, 2010, 03:10:07 PMGod specifically tells us that death has no victory and death is destroyed - so how can some be dead forever (annihilated)?
I think that's an odd way of looking at death, as if it is an ongoing action. Dying is an action, and the act of dying doesn't go on forever. But once the act of dying is completed (death) one would cease to exist. It is not a state of "being;" something that does not exist has no "state."
When Jesus destroys death, imho that simply means from that point on, "death" will never again claim a living being.
Those who chose death in this life, "shall be as though they had not been (Obadiah 1:16); will "be no more" (Psalms 104:35); will "be destroyed—without remedy." (Proverbs 6:15); will be torn down, "never to be rebuilt." (Psalm 28:5).
:2c:
So if annihilation is true why hasn't that punishment been paid for? Christ didn't stay dead, so, he didn't pay for annihilation.
Since the wages of sin is DEATH and Christ paid the complete penalty for sins when he died, how could annihilation be true?
What is the purpose of annihilation? Is it to pay for sins? How can that be if Christ paid for our sins?
CHB
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 07:11:15 PMI know you directed this to Shawn, but I am a firm believer in eternal destruction, so I'd like to give my response to your question, if I may.
I don't think God purposely created any of us to be "thrown away forever." However, I believe we were created in His image able to freely choose good or evil, life or death.
LS,
You just perfectly described a throw-away-creation.
a] God decides He wants to create people.
b] He draws up a blueprint for creation.
c] He gazes in His crystal ball and sees a future filled with eternal destruction.
d] He creates us anyway.
Because of His foreknowledge He purposely created us for destruction.
He could have chosen another design that doesn't lead to ED, or no creation at all.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 08:06:01 PM
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 07:11:15 PMI know you directed this to Shawn, but I am a firm believer in eternal destruction, so I'd like to give my response to your question, if I may.
I don't think God purposely created any of us to be "thrown away forever." However, I believe we were created in His image able to freely choose good or evil, life or death.
LS,
You just perfectly described a throw-away-creation.
a] God decides He wants to create people.
b] He draws up a blueprint for creation.
c] He gazes in His crystal ball and sees a future filled with eternal destruction.
d] He creates us anyway.
Because of His foreknowledge He purposely created us for destruction.
He could have chosen another design that doesn't lead to ED, or no creation at all.
:2c:
One can argue that, he was not willing than any perish but that all come to repentance.
Some creation would have enjoyed their life on earth being evil, doing evil, so they would have enjoyed some innings.
But those who want to live forever join christ in his new kingdom.
Quote from: thinktank on August 12, 2010, 08:33:42 PMOne can argue that, he was not willing than any perish but that all come to repentance.
Cool. Father doesn't will anyone to perish. => They will shalt be done!
QuoteSome creation would have enjoyed their life on earth being evil, doing evil, so they would have enjoyed some innings.
Sounds good.
QuoteBut those who want to live forever join christ in his new kingdom.
Sounds good too.
Lemme do a some math.
95% = Is the percentage of creation wants to party and be destroyed afterward (ignoring the many people that are deceived)
5% = The percentage of creation that follows Jesus.
100% = The percentage that Father wants to save.
100% is not equal to 5%
Why?
a] Pots overruled the Potter?
b] The Potter is a lousy craftsman?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 09:12:43 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 12, 2010, 08:33:42 PMOne can argue that, he was not willing than any perish but that all come to repentance.
Cool. Father doesn't will anyone to perish. => They will shalt be done!
QuoteSome creation would have enjoyed their life on earth being evil, doing evil, so they would have enjoyed some innings.
Sounds good.
QuoteBut those who want to live forever join christ in his new kingdom.
Sounds good too.
Lemme do a some math.
95% = Is the percentage of creation wants to party and be destroyed afterward (ignoring the many people that are deceived)
5% = The percentage of creation that follows Jesus.
100% = The percentage that Father wants to save.
100% is not equal to 5%
Why?
a] Pots overruled the Potter?
b] The Potter is a lousy craftsman?
c] God's will and Jesus' blood too weak to get it done?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 09:12:43 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 12, 2010, 08:33:42 PMOne can argue that, he was not willing than any perish but that all come to repentance.
Cool. Father doesn't will anyone to perish. => They will shalt be done!
QuoteSome creation would have enjoyed their life on earth being evil, doing evil, so they would have enjoyed some innings.
Sounds good.
QuoteBut those who want to live forever join christ in his new kingdom.
Sounds good too.
Lemme do a some math.
95% = Is the percentage of creation wants to party and be destroyed afterward (ignoring the many people that are deceived)
5% = The percentage of creation that follows Jesus.
100% = The percentage that Father wants to save.
100% is not equal to 5%
Why?
a] Pots overruled the Potter?
b] The Potter is a lousy craftsman?
Your faith is strong, God bless you for that.
The disciples asked Jesus "who then can be saved"
With God all things are possible.
Quote from: thinktank on August 12, 2010, 09:19:57 PMYour faith is strong, God bless you for that.
I think you are very deceived by my spamming. I'm kinda sure my faith is the smallest of the whole forum. I comment/post as I would on a science book :sigh:
But thanks for the compliment :thumbsup:
I think we need to keep in mind:
- Jesus came to destroy death (I read that as not some death, not just future death, all death)
- every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and swear allegiance to the glory of the father (I view this as a willing and joyous oath that every soul will make)
- In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive (not some, but all)
- where sin increased, grace increased all the more. There is no sin that can stop God's grace.
- God will have all men to be saved.
- all will choose God eventually because all will bow and all are made alive.
Eternal Death aka Annihilation doesn't fit here.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 08:06:01 PM
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 07:11:15 PMI know you directed this to Shawn, but I am a firm believer in eternal destruction, so I'd like to give my response to your question, if I may.
I don't think God purposely created any of us to be "thrown away forever." However, I believe we were created in His image able to freely choose good or evil, life or death.
LS,
You just perfectly described a throw-away-creation.
a] God decides He wants to create people.
b] He draws up a blueprint for creation.
c] He gazes in His crystal ball and sees a future filled with eternal destruction.
d] He creates us anyway.
Because of His foreknowledge He purposely created us for destruction.
He could have chosen another design that doesn't lead to ED, or no creation at all.
:2c:
This is where you and I start seeing things in a very similar light. God being all knowing changes everything. God created creatures who he knew in advance would reject him. So, either he saves those people as well or he seen a purpose in creating them. I believe he seen a purpose in creating them and Paul speaks about it here.
Romans 9
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?"
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory.
For me this supports the notion that God foreknew and created vessels in which he knew he would destroy after used for a purpose. Isn't that God's right? Just because some of us can't reconcile the goodness and love of God with this notion it doesn't make it any less true. But, if you believe in ET these verses become very problematic because then you have to reconcile God hardening hearts, foreknowing, and still creating vessels he would burn for eternity. Trying to reconcile that with God who loves agape was a significant part of my crisis of faith. Much like a previous poster said...I now no longer accepted that 2+2=5.
Of course you could always take Milton's stance and say God foreknew but had no responsibility in their choices. For me, that also makes no sense. It would be like me inventing something knowing someone would use it to kill a million people but saying...hey! I had no hand in that. I am not responsible!
I agree, that's "better" than ET.
But what if we look at less popular definitions (but match with the Greek, apart from orthodox bias and veiledness) of words such as 'torment', 'destroy', and 'eternal/everlasting'?
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm - also the everlasting fire at the gate and on the altar have ceased, as their purpose was fulfilled. Jonah was in the belly of the whale "forever", etc.
Then take into account the 600 scriptures related to ultimate reconciliation listed here;
http://sigler.org/lovelace/read_and_search.htm
IMO, then it reconciles. It's neither ET or ED, but shows how God fulfills what He clearly states is His will. [Even though most have to go through destruction], that all be saved.
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 12:27:05 AM
This is where you and I start seeing things in a very similar light. God being all knowing changes everything. God created creatures who he knew in advance would reject him. So, either he saves those people as well or he seen a purpose in creating them. I believe he seen a purpose in creating them and Paul speaks about it here.
A thought: we all start off rejecting him. We each come to Him at a different time.
Quote
Romans 9
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?"
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory.
For me this supports the notion that God foreknew and created vessels in which he knew he would destroy after used for a purpose. Isn't that God's right? Just because some of us can't reconcile the goodness and love of God with this notion it doesn't make it any less true. But, if you believe in ET these verses become very problematic because then you have to reconcile God hardening hearts, foreknowing, and still creating vessels he would burn for eternity. Trying to reconcile that with God who loves agape was a significant part of my crisis of faith. Much like a previous poster said...I now no longer accepted that 2+2=5.
The question is: what is the vessel made for destruction? Think Saul/Paul. Ever wonder why he had two names?
Saul was destined for destruction and will not be entering the Kingdom. Paul was the new creation who became one of the greatest apostles.
Last message for tonite.
James,
UR=Grace
ED=Justice
ET= :thumbdown:
Shawn,
QuoteFor me this supports the notion that God foreknew and created vessels in which he knew he would destroy after used for a purpose. Isn't that God's right?
Yes and yes.
I want to clarify that I nowhere want to suggest God doesn't know anger, wrath and punishment.
We both believe Father destroys the sinner-vessels.
It's just that I think the vessel will be restored again.
Quote from: legoman on August 13, 2010, 12:42:04 AMThe question is: what is the vessel made for destruction? Think Saul/Paul. Ever wonder why he had two names?
Saul wasn't in the Book of Life. But Paul is.
Also note that the main people in OT got their name changed just before a major task. :dontknow:
Quote from: legoman on August 13, 2010, 12:42:04 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 12:27:05 AM
This is where you and I start seeing things in a very similar light. God being all knowing changes everything. God created creatures who he knew in advance would reject him. So, either he saves those people as well or he seen a purpose in creating them. I believe he seen a purpose in creating them and Paul speaks about it here.
A thought: we all start off rejecting him. We each come to Him at a different time.
Quote
Romans 9
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?"
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory.
For me this supports the notion that God foreknew and created vessels in which he knew he would destroy after used for a purpose. Isn't that God's right? Just because some of us can't reconcile the goodness and love of God with this notion it doesn't make it any less true. But, if you believe in ET these verses become very problematic because then you have to reconcile God hardening hearts, foreknowing, and still creating vessels he would burn for eternity. Trying to reconcile that with God who loves agape was a significant part of my crisis of faith. Much like a previous poster said...I now no longer accepted that 2+2=5.
The question is: what is the vessel made for destruction? Think Saul/Paul. Ever wonder why he had two names?
Saul was destined for destruction and will not be entering the Kingdom. Paul was the new creation who became one of the greatest apostles.
I suppose that's a possibility as well. My old self certainly made God's power known to my new self. That's an interesting take on a scripture I felt I had locked down. That's the funny thing about scripture...just when you "know" what sections mean is when you are presented with an alternative view.
Quote from: jabcat on August 10, 2010, 08:02:46 AM
:goodpost:, I'll probably share it. Also, you might consider sending it to Gary Amirault. He's very interested in peoples' various reactions to "hell" as you have revealed about yourself. Sad, really, that you had to go through that, but God intends it for good.
God bless.
Hi, jabcat
Can you tell me how to send that post to Gary? :dontknow:
Hello. Just copy the link of your post (right click on it and choose 'copy shortcut'), go the TM main page. At the bottom there's a 'Contact Us' link. You can paste the link to your post in there with a note. He'll get it. :thumbsup:
He has a personal interest in how the topic of eternal torment has affected people emotionally. He would be interested in seeing what you've written.