ascended

[micah7:9]

I believe that when we do are talk of heaven we become missplaced in our thinking. Some of religion teach and believe that heaven is some place, a physical realm.
I, forget alot of the time when I am studying, the one important base to start from.
Luk 17:21  nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'
Luk 17:21  neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
So I must reason that all the ascending and descending is happening in me Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me. The life I am now living in the body I am living by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[WhiteWings]

Didn't Jesus, as a very strong believer, had the kingdom in him? And Job, Enoch, Moses ,....?
What about satan. He vistited his inner kingdom?
:dontknow:

[thinktank]

Not sure, but doesn't the scripture say "no man"?

Yeah, that's true.

Are Enoch and Eliah men if say only their spirit went to heaven? Or their body got changed before they acended.

If angels can ascend and descent then it also shows we are not angels as sometimes suggested

That's a good point, maybe you've solved the puzzle  :happy3:


and in oppostion to the idea that only Jesus can was us clean and make us worthy. 2 points I'd like to make.

One. it was Jesus, God who translated these fellows by his word.

2nd. These men were mighty men of faith, and with faith all things are possible

[WhiteWings]

One. it was Jesus, God who translated these fellows by his word.

2nd. These men were mighty men of faith, and with faith all things are possible

I don't agree or don't understand what you mean.

Consider these 3 points.
1. Yes, God can do whatever He wishes. Including translation.
2. Jesus doesn't lie.
3. Jesus said He was the first one to ascend to heaven.

So my conclusion: Yes indeed Father could have translated Enoch to heaven. But Jesus said Father did not do that.  :dontknow:

[Molly]

John 3:13
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man

"ascended" [into heaven]

G305
αναβαίνω
anabainō
an-ab-ah'ee-no
From G303 and the base of G939; to go up (literally or figuratively): - arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).



It means literally to walk up to heaven,  as baino means to walk, [ the foot].

Sounds a lot like Jacob's ladder.

Genesis 28:12
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

This is, in part, prophecy which Jacob sees, as Jesus references it later--

John 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Jesus is saying here that he is the ladder.

This seems to me to be a different concept from being translated, which has more the connotation of being carried by others.

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


"translated"

G3346
μετατίθημι
metatithēmi
met-at-ith'-ay-mee
From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

The word in the Old Testament refers to being in a horizontal position when carried, in other words, it is totally passive on the part of the one being carried.

But, we see that because of Jesus translating us into the kingdom, we will be more active in our abilities to 'ascend.'



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

--Heb 12



Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


"come" [boldly]

G4334
προσέρχομαι
proserchomai
pros-er'-khom-ahee
From G4314 and G2064 (including its alternate); to approach, that is, (literally) come near, visit, or (figuratively) worship, assent to: - (as soon as he) come (unto), come thereunto, consent, draw near, go (near, to, unto).

[thinktank]

One. it was Jesus, God who translated these fellows by his word.

2nd. These men were mighty men of faith, and with faith all things are possible

I don't agree or don't understand what you mean.

Consider these 3 points.
1. Yes, God can do whatever He wishes. Including translation.
2. Jesus doesn't lie.
3. Jesus said He was the first one to ascend to heaven.

So my conclusion: Yes indeed Father could have translated Enoch to heaven. But Jesus said Father did not do that.  :dontknow:

The correct translation is that Jesus said no man has gone to heaven excpet the son of man.

Here's why.

The flaming cheribum guarding the tree of life, where are they? They must have ascended into heaven

2nd jacobs ladder, saw angels ascending and descending, this before Christ made that statment.


So you said Enoch translated, so that he is no longer accounted as a man, but perhaps is fashioned in the same way that we will be, one day, which Jesus said they are as the angels of heaven, neither marrying or given in mariage.

[WhiteWings]

:idea2:  :JCThink: :idea2:

^TCBJoh 3:13 Now no one has ascended into heaven, except the One who decended out of heaven, the Son of Humanity.

Both decending and ascending are mentioned.

From G303 and the base of G939; to go up (literally or figuratively): - arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

What about grow Molly? Grown in faith.

It means literally to walk up to heaven,  as baino means to walk, [ the foot].

According to ISA2 HAS-UP-STEPPED
/Edit imo step can have many different meanings. Including promotion while sitting in  a chair...

^KJVGen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

What does it mean? Heaven is a literal place somewhere? Or is it just spiritual symbolism?

From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

The word in the Old Testament refers to being in a horizontal position when carried, in other words, it is totally passive on the part of the one being carried.

May off-topic but possibly a hint. The friends of the groom carried the bride that way.

[WhiteWings]

The correct translation is that Jesus said no man has gone to heaven excpet the son of man.

Only KJV uses "no man" the other versions I checked all use "no one".

Here's why.

The flaming cheribum guarding the tree of life, where are they? They must have ascended into heaven

Verse? Can't they be just here invisible?

2nd jacobs ladder, saw angels ascending and descending, this before Christ made that statment.

Did Jacob see a literal thing?
I stick with Micah on this one. Jesus was very clear. I can't just ignore it. Unless ofcourse you can show the words have a different meaning as what I assume they mean...

So you said Enoch translated, so that he is no longer accounted as a man, but perhaps is fashioned in the same way that we will be, one day, which Jesus said they are as the angels of heaven, neither marrying or given in mariage.

And that debunks it....
Say both Enoch and Jesus got a new body so they are no longer men. That would contradict John 3:13 where Jesus calls Himself a man. So no matter how glorified His body was it still called it a body of a man.

[thinktank]

The correct translation is that Jesus said no man has gone to heaven excpet the son of man.

Only KJV uses "no man" the other versions I checked all use "no one".

Here's why.

The flaming cheribum guarding the tree of life, where are they? They must have ascended into heaven

Verse? Can't they be just here invisible?

2nd jacobs ladder, saw angels ascending and descending, this before Christ made that statment.

Did Jacob see a literal thing?
I stick with Micah on this one. Jesus was very clear. I can't just ignore it. Unless ofcourse you can show the words have a different meaning as what I assume they mean...

So you said Enoch translated, so that he is no longer accounted as a man, but perhaps is fashioned in the same way that we will be, one day, which Jesus said they are as the angels of heaven, neither marrying or given in mariage.

And that debunks it....
Say both Enoch and Jesus got a new body so they are no longer men. That would contradict John 3:13 where Jesus calls Himself a man. So no matter how glorified His body was it still called it a body of a man.

I'll stick with the kjv version as it is in harmony with the other scriptures. These other bible versions do have translation errors in them, the translator tends to put their ideas in. I'd be interested to know which bible version you read that says no one instead of no man?

That's a good point about John 3:13, though.

[WhiteWings]

I switched on all Bibles in my software. Looks a bit better for the "man camp"  :winkgrin:

ASV  John 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

BBE  John 3:13 And no one has ever gone up to heaven but he who came down from heaven, the Son of man.

CJB  John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven; there is only the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.

CSB  John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven-- the Son of Man.

DBY  John 3:13 And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

DRA  John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

ERV  John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.

ESV  John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

ETH  John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man, he who is in heaven.

GNV  John 3:13 For no man ascendeth vp to heauen, but he that hath descended from heauen, that Sonne of man which is in heauen.

GWN  John 3:13 No one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man, who came from heaven.

KJG  John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

KJV  John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

LEW  John 3:13 and no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the Son of man which is from heaven.

MGI  John 3:13 And no man has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

MIT  John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven. The exception is the one who descended from heaven—the human one.

MRD  John 3:13 And no one hath ascended to heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

NAB  John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.

NAS  John 3:13 "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.

NAU  John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

NET  John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven– the Son of Man.

NIB  John 3:13 No-one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

NIRV  John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the One who came from heaven. He is the Son of Man.

NIV  John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

NJB  John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man;

NKJ  John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

NLT  John 3:13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.

NRS  John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

PNT  John 3:13 And no man ascendeth vp to heauen, but he that came downe from heauen, euen the sonne of man which is in heauen.

RSV  John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

RWB  John 3:13 And no man hath ascended to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

TNIV  John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

TNT  John 3:13 And no man ascendeth vp to heaven but he that came doune from heaven that is to saye the sonne of man which is in heaven.

WEB  John 3:13 And no man hath ascended to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, {even} the Son of man who is in heaven.

YLT  John 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

[thinktank]

Cool software. It's amazing how many bible translations there are, I wonder how many are there simply to make money. :mshock:

But I found the kjv version which says the son of man which is in heaven, to be a bit odd, so maybe even my favourite bible kjv is wrong on some points  :mshock: well I know it has some errors, but this could be one here.

as some of the rest, say "son of man, who is from heaven".

[WhiteWings]

Cool software.

Indeed but pricey. Good and free software here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0

It's amazing how many bible translations there are, I wonder how many are there simply to make money. :mshock:

Almost all. And most certainly KJV. Zondervan is a full daughter of Harper-Collins (sp?). That publisher publishes about anything. All religions including wicca and satanism. and of course p*rn mags...
Only the TCB didn't work for profit. And they are out of business  :winkgrin:

But I found the kjv version which says the son of man which is in heaven, to be a bit odd, so maybe even my favourite bible kjv is wrong on some points  :mshock: well I know it has some errors, but this could be one here.

as some of the rest, say "son of man, who is from heaven".

Know know, TT, I'm not making statement about "no man" and "no one" because whatever the translating it still doesn't solve my 'problem'. I was merely pointing out that translators are very devided on it.
That said I edge to "no one" because that's the way my it is in my most trusted translations.
Biased. Yeah likely just as much as you are biased toward KJV.
I just don't trust Free Mason leaders. => King James was one....  :mshock:

[thinktank]

Cool software.

Indeed but pricey. Good and free software here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0

It's amazing how many bible translations there are, I wonder how many are there simply to make money. :mshock:

Almost all. And most certainly KJV. Zondervan is a full daughter of Harper-Collins (sp?). That publisher publishes about anything. All religions including wicca and satanism. and of course p*rn mags...
The only the TCB don't work for profit. And they are out of business  :winkgrin:

But I found the kjv version which says the son of man which is in heaven, to be a bit odd, so maybe even my favourite bible kjv is wrong on some points  :mshock: well I know it has some errors, but this could be one here.

as some of the rest, say "son of man, who is from heaven".

Know know, TT, I'm not making statement about "no man" and "no one" because whatever the translating it still doesn't solve my 'problem'. I was merely pointing out that translators are very devided on it.
That said I edge to "no one" because that's the way my it is in my most trusted translations.
Biased. Yeah likely just as much as you are biased toward KJV.
I just don't trust Free Mason leaders. => King James was one....  :mshock:

Thanks for the link. I recently watched Gary on youtube talk about Zonder and how they owned NIV and then he explained how each company owned another company, until he mentioned Rupert Murdoch as the top owner.

Strangely I used to hate the kjv, I use to read it and think why am I reading this rust bucket, it's words were like knifes in my heart, even harsher than willies words :laughing7: But I guess Ive grown use to it and now that I have a better understanding of God's salvation, words like damned and hell are no longer as frightening, because I know what they mean, well mostly.

[WhiteWings]

Strangely I used to hate the kjv, I use to read it and think why am I reading this rust bucket, it's words were like knifes in my heart, even harsher than willies words :laughing7:

He's one of the original translators  :winkgrin:

But I guess Ive grown use to it and now that I have a better understanding of God's salvation, words like damned and hell are no longer as frightening, because I know what they mean, well mostly.

So you have grown used to it because you no longer read it; but translate it to your ED believes.

[Molly]

...until he mentioned Rupert Murdoch as the top owner

yikes. :mshock:

well, that would explain why some of the translations are subtly removing the divinity of Jesus...

[thinktank]

Strangely I used to hate the kjv, I use to read it and think why am I reading this rust bucket, it's words were like knifes in my heart, even harsher than willies words :laughing7:

He's one of the original translators  :winkgrin:

But I guess Ive grown use to it and now that I have a better understanding of God's salvation, words like damned and hell are no longer as frightening, because I know what they mean, well mostly.

So you have grown used to it because you no longer read it; but translate it to your ED believes.

He's one of the original translators  :winkgrin:

I should have known.

So you have grown used to it because you no longer read it; but translate it to your ED believes.

By getting used to it I don't mean I don't read it. I mean it no longer has the same reaction of desperation as it once did, quick save them all, before they roast in hell etc.

I think my Ed beliefs have been misunderstood by most here.
To me I never said that one must believe or perish. What I have said is that if people should choose they can reject the living God and sacrifice their life in eternity. Just like a good man hates evil things an evil man hates good things and because God just so happens to be good, it means that evil will not be tolerated forever. So to some I have no idea who, or how many, or if any will choose to reject eternity with God, because perhaps to them an eternity with goodness is the equivalent of hell. They would not be able to lie, steal, cheat, thief, fornicate all the things that they might love so a peacefull death would be welcomed by anyone who loves evil more than good, hence ED. The fact that we are Christians proves to our hearts that we desire that which is good despite, doing that which is evil. Epislte of john

Says 'he that is of God cannot sin for he is God's. It also says 'if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves'

So the proof of whether we be accounted as rightoeus is not whether we sin, but whether we welcome God in our lives.

[WhiteWings]

So you have grown used to it because you no longer read it; but translate it to your ED believes.By getting used to it I don't mean I don't read it. I mean it no longer has the same reaction of desperation as it once did, quick save them all, before they roast in hell etc.

Because when you read a word it automaitcly 'expands' in your thinktank to an understanding. I think that's how it works (James?)
Not only forr you. For everyone. At least that is how it feels for me.

I think my Ed beliefs have been misunderstood by most here.
To me I never said that one must believe or perish. What I have said is that if people should choose they can reject the living God and sacrifice their life in eternity. Just like a good man hates evil things an evil man hates good things and because God just so happens to be good, it means that evil will not be tolerated forever. So to some I have no idea who, or how many, or if any will choose to reject eternity with God, because perhaps to them an eternity with goodness is the equivalent of hell. They would not be able to lie, steal, cheat, thief, fornicate all the things that they might love so a peacefull death would be welcomed by anyone who loves evil more than good, hence ED.

So depending on your own choice, not that of God, you are or are not EDdyfried? :laughing7:

The fact that we are Christians proves to our hearts that we desire that which is good despite, doing that which is evil. Epislte of john
Says 'he that is of God cannot sin for he is God's. It also says 'if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves'
So the proof of whether we be accounted as rightoeus is not whether we sin, but whether we welcome God in our lives.

I can't see it that way...
Sinless is impossible. But for me there is  limit to it. If you pass that limit then you are no longer a Christian.

Someone that runs a marathon is called an athlete. Someone who runs half a marathon is an athlete.
A couch potato that runs to the fridge for another six-pack of beer is called an athlete???

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: If you know that we were one with Him, His glorified body from before the foundation of the world (which is why our spirit RETURNS to the One who sent it), and that we are told to come before the throne of grace boldly (ASCEND) making our petitions known (as coming before a king on a throne), then I want to paint a picture for you.

Ladder in thought, can also be as STEPS, there were a certain number of steps in the temple pattern, that coincide with a specific and particular number of psalms (songs of ASCENT). The priesthood went up these steps, ascending with prayers/petitions, and then descended with the "replies".

It can also be considered a means of getting from one realm to another, which is why HE is the "ladder", the mediator BETWEEN man and God.

Being seated with Him in heavenly places as the spiritual priesthood, grants us access to the heavenly King, as we ASCEND in the Spirit in prayer and worship, and then DESCEND with the "matter" decided, and as such a messenger with a message. Angels = message or messenger. Blessings....

[thinktank]

I can't see it that way...
Sinless is impossible. But for me there is  limit to it. If you pass that limit then you are no longer a Christian.

Someone that runs a marathon is called an athlete. Someone who runs half a marathon is an athlete.
A couch potato that runs to the fridge for another six-pack of beer is called an athlete???
whitewings

I agree in part. There are two messages the bible proclaims.

One is . He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
He that has beagn a work in you shall complete till the day of Christ


And

Gods spirit shall not allways strive with man
He gave them up to their own minds. Romans

So one is faith that if we fail we have advocate with the father, a high priest who knows our infimities, that we are but dust.

But also that God does indeed have a certain amount of toleration and one can by their own willfullness, lose themselves to sin.

On that note, I don't understand how US salvation or even Universal reconciliation, my view for that matter
can fit into the idea of when Jesus says, he that save his life shall lose it and he that lose his life shall save it.

What does it mean to die in ones sins?

[WhiteWings]

One is . He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
He that has beagn a work in you shall complete till the day of Christ

Just like the marathon athlete. In the beginning he's tired after 100 yards. (No Christian). At the end (day of Christ) he's an athlete (Christian)
Being in the process of becoming an athlete/Christian doesn't automaticly mean you are already an athlete/Christian.

On that note, I don't understand how US salvation or even Universal reconciliation, my view for that matter
can fit into the idea of when Jesus says, he that save his life shall lose it and he that lose his life shall save it.

If you are born again it means you must die first.
born again=save
die=lose it
:dontknow:

[jabcat]

One is . He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
He that has beagn a work in you shall complete till the day of Christ

Just like the marathon athlete. In the beginning he's tired after 100 yards. (No Christian). At the end (day of Christ) he's an athlete (Christian)
Being in the process of becoming an athlete/Christian doesn't automaticly mean you are already an athlete/Christian.

On that note, I don't understand how US salvation or even Universal reconciliation, my view for that matter
can fit into the idea of when Jesus says, he that save his life shall lose it and he that lose his life shall save it.

If you are born again it means you must die first.
born again=save
die=lose it
:dontknow:

We will all die to self.  Some now in this lifetime, the ecclesia (called out ones), the rest later as they take the wide road to destruction [of self, and all that is not of God - "hurt" by the second death, as God creates the conditions to die to self, repent, confess Jesus as Lord when EVERY knee bows and EVERY tongue confesses].

Jesus said not marvel when He said we MUST be born again.  Born again = spiritually renewed, born from above.

Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13.