I believe: Joh 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
to be true.
Now how do I explain:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walketh habitually with God, and he is not, for God hath taken him
2Ki 2:11 And it cometh to pass, they are going, going on and speaking, and lo, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and they separate between them both, and Elijah goeth up in a whirlwind, to the heavens.
Any help? Thanks
You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven :laughing7:
Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm
http://www.cgom.org/Publications/Booklets/Enoch_Elijah.htm
http://www.biblestudy.org/question/where-is-enoch-and-elijah.html
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GeneralExpositions/EnochAndElijah.html
http://www.truthontheweb.org/elijah.htm
Thank you I was just gathering information, there are many I speak with who dont understand and testify that Enoch went to heaven and didnt die as with Elijah.
:cloud9: From my point of view, they were so consumed by Christ in God that "they" were no more. As Paul would later say, it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me. I believe Paul could have/would have done the same thing had he not chosen to stay with the rest to teach/explain how he "got there". Blessings....
I'm going to hover over this myself because I deeply sense that it's bigger than just Enoch or Elijah. I've heard some explanations to the idea that neither of them literally did want Scripture is implying. Which I can understand . ..but then we turn around and say in the passage you quoted that "this" one you can take literally in that it really means what it says .. .my problem is . .it means noone has ever gone to heaven then . . .it means everyone is in a holding pattern . .which fits the theory of soul sleep . . .problem with "that" is, it doesn't fit with the nature of abundant life. So for me, there's a lot more here than just focusing on Elijah or Enoch . . .it's the principle of how things get manipulated to fit one's personal point of view . . .including my own.
Since Christ is limitless, maybe He just went back and got them.
I've noticed a pattern in the bible that God seems to have some exceptions.
E.g All have sinned and come short- that is except Christ.
And all the world worshipped the beast - Except Christians and the antichrists enemies
Kings of babylon sent all to worship him - except 3 men
And the devil said I will give you all these kingdoms - except Israel, being the apple of Gods eye
so perhaps Jesus said, no one has ascended to heaven - except maybe Enoch and Elijah
Because in the pattern of things Elijah is Adams seed and should see death, like everyone else, but God made an exception and there is no proof that Elijah has died.
Enoch and Elijah died. there are many ways in the Bible on how it says a man dies. No one, no man has ascended to heaven but...
Joh 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
Thats red letter. You want to make claims for it. Jesus said NO ONE/NO MAN you want to read it some other way go for it.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 27, 2010, 08:55:39 AM
Enoch and Elijah died. there are many ways in the Bible on how it says a man dies. No one, no man has ascended to heaven but...
Joh 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
Thats red letter. You want to make claims for it. Jesus said NO ONE/NO MAN you want to read it some other way go for it.
Well from what I've read most christians seem to think that verse doesn't apply even in half measure. I am only making exceptions for two people, unlike a lot of Christians, who think all of Israel bc have gone to heaven without explanation to their argument.
I don't know of any other explanation I have heard of apart from that elijah and enoch were taking somewhere upon the earth or even on other planets. The other one being that they died as you said, but yet there is no evidence scripturally that they did. So this one is a tough one.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 25, 2010, 06:44:23 PM
Since Christ is limitless, maybe He just went back and got them.
Exactly what I was thinking. If God decided to take a couple people and take them to heaven does that mean he does so with the rest of mankind? God is God...he does what he does. I think we tend to complicate these things.
I found this to be very interesting [and for me anyway sets my thoughts to rest]
The fact that he did not leave the Earth altogether is borne out by the fact that he sent a letter to Jehoram in 2nd Chronicles 21:12 years after Elisha had taken up his mantle.2 Chronicles 21:4 Now when Jehoram had taken over the kingdom of his father Jehoshephat and made himself secure, he killed all his brothers with the sword, and some of the rulers of Israel also.
2 Chronicles 21:12 Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, "Thus says the LORD God of your father David, 'Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah..."
The writer of Hebrews provides the fullest explanation of Enoch's fate. Verse 5 reads "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he might not see death; and he was not found because God took him up;" While verse 13 concludes "All these died in faith, without receiving the promises..." We are not told who was seeking Enoch to put him to death, but there has never been a shortage of opposition to those walking with God.
Hebrews 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."
The way I read, it was a VISION. (Is,Was,And Will Be)
:cloud9: Do you suppose that saying "all these" that died in faith, EXCLUDED Enoch, since something different was said about him? :dontknow:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 09, 2010, 03:38:46 AM
I found this to be very interesting [and for me anyway sets my thoughts to rest]
The fact that he did not leave the Earth altogether is borne out by the fact that he sent a letter to Jehoram in 2nd Chronicles 21:12 years after Elisha had taken up his mantle.2 Chronicles 21:4 Now when Jehoram had taken over the kingdom of his father Jehoshephat and made himself secure, he killed all his brothers with the sword, and some of the rulers of Israel also.
2 Chronicles 21:12 Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, "Thus says the LORD God of your father David, 'Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah..."
The writer of Hebrews provides the fullest explanation of Enoch's fate. Verse 5 reads "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he might not see death; and he was not found because God took him up;" While verse 13 concludes "All these died in faith, without receiving the promises..." We are not told who was seeking Enoch to put him to death, but there has never been a shortage of opposition to those walking with God.
Hebrews 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."
The way I read, it was a VISION. (Is,Was,And Will Be)
I'm glad you found that verse. I found it a week ago while I was reading and I thought "Micah" but it's a tough job to find the threads, but anyway you found it now, so good.
Now im confused as to whether enoch died or not, it does say that he was translated, so if he's translated how would he die, if he has the body of an angel. So I'll stick with him being alive for now.
"Do you suppose that saying "all these" that died in faith, EXCLUDED Enoch, since something different was said about him?" Post #12 Cardinal
I must believe what the Bible plainly reads (and in red) I believe: Joh 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
to be true.
As for Enoch was translated, I must again fall back on what the Bible reads, Heb 11:13 In faith died all these,
That gathers in the Heb.11:5 " translated" to which I can offer no words. Yet I am sure Enoch died.
http://www.cgom.org/Publications/Booklets/Enoch_Elijah.htm
http://www.biblestudy.org/question/where-is-enoch-and-elijah.html
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GeneralExpositions/EnochAndElijah.html
http://www.truthontheweb.org/elijah.htm
The Bible says that Enoch 'was not, for God took him' (Genesis 5:24), and that he was 'translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him' (Hebrews 11:5).
What actually happened to Enoch? Where did he go? Where is he now?
At this moment Enoch is dead and in his grave. We know this because it is clearly stated in Hebrews that Enoch died in faith, not having received the promises (Heb. 11:5, 13). And Genesis 5:23 plainly says that ALL THE DAYS of Enoch were 365 years.
On the other hand, God did deal with Enoch in a highly unique manner.
Enoch was one of those rare persons who realized the tremendous importance and profit in living God's way. From age 65 until his death, three hundred years later, Enoch "walked with God" (Genesis 5:22). And God is always particularly concerned for those who put His work first in their lives. He promises to protect them in times of severe trial:
But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.(Ps. 37:39-40).
We are not informed of the conditions that made it necessary for God to "translate" (transfer, transport) Enoch from where he had been, but it is clear that God did this to save his life (Heb. 11:5). Enoch was not taken to the heaven of God's Throne — he was removed by God to a safer location on the earth. Conditions were so bad that Enoch would have perished at the hands of men — had not God intervened.
A similar time of severe trial and test is soon coming on this entire world — but worse than any the world has heretofore known (Matt. 24:21). Enoch knew the way to Divine protection – it was obedience to God!
Q. Where is Enoch and Elijah? Did God whisk them to heaven or did they die like all other humans?
(Submitted by: J. C.)
A. Many Bible readers have been mystified by the "disappearance" of these personages. Some believe they are evidence that those who die righteously go to heaven. Of course this is a big misconception, so what did happen to Enoch and Elijah?
Let's begin with Enoch. There are only two Scriptural passages that mention him by name. The first one is found in the book of Genesis, chapter 5 and verse 24. Let's see how the various Bible translations render this verse (Genesis 5:24):
"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. " (New King James Version)
"Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here . . . " (New American Bible)
"And Enoch continued to please God and was not found, for God translated him" (Septuagint).
"lived close to God, and then disappeared . . . " (Moffet Translation)
Other translations render the verse "he disappeared for God took him".
Now lets take a look at the second scripture that mentions Enoch by name:
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had his testimony, that he pleased God. " (Hebrews 11:5)
The most significant aspect of these two Scriptures is the fact that neither of them say Enoch went to heaven.
The word rendered translated in the Greek, μετατίθημι, is Strong's Concordance #3346. It means to transfer, transport, exchange, change sides, carry over, change or remove.
We read in John 3:13 :
"And no man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of man who is in heaven. "
Also Acts 2:34 :
"For David did not ascend into the heavens but he said himself: 'The Lord said to My Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies Your footstool.' "
Both Enoch and David were long dead when Jesus and Peter made those statements. This is positive proof that neither Enoch nor David were taken to heaven, at least the "heaven" where God resides.
What about Elijah? Let's look at 2 Kings 2:1, 11 :
"And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven " (2Kings 2:1, 11)
What few people realize is that the Bible discusses three types or kinds of heaven. Briefly, the first heaven is the atmosphere or sky that surrounds the earth, the second heaven is the physical universe that has stars, planets and so on, and the third type of heaven is where God's throne resides. For a fuller explanation of this topic please see our short article What are the three heavens?
Which heaven then is 2 Kings 2 verses 1 and 11, mentioned above, referring to?
The word translated heaven in 2Kings 1, 11 comes from the Hebrew word shamahym (שׁמה שׁמים, Strong's Concordance #8064). It is the plural form of the Hebrew word shameh which means to be lofty, the sky, the visible arch in which the clouds move. Its certainly not the heaven where God's throne is.
When Jesus (John 3:13) and Peter (Acts 2:34) state that no person has gone to heaven, the heaven they are referring to is the one containing God's throne. Therefore, when Hebrews 11:5 states that Enoch was "translated" or moved, it does not mean that he was somehow scooped up by God to live forever with him near his throne. It means that Enoch was moved or taken through the earth's atmosphere (sky), to a physical location on the earth the Bible does not name, so " . . . that he should not see death." This is the same thing that happened to Elijah.
God, in His wisdom, decided to physically transport Enoch and Elijah away from where they were originally located so that someone (or something) would not be able to physically kill them at a certain time. They continued to live the same kind of fleshly existence you or I do after they were moved until they died just like any other human on planet earth. This is in agreement with other scriptures that state all men (humans) must die a physical death:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: " (Hebrews 9:27, KJV)
"WHERE are ENOCH and ELIJAH?"
Enoch was translated that he should not see death. Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Yet the Bible reveals they are not in heaven today! WHERE ARE THEY? Here's the astounding truth.
Where Is Enoch?
ENOCH was "translated." Where did he go? Was he immediately taken to heaven? NO! Because Jesus Himself said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" (John 3:13). Here are Jesus' own words that no man, except Himself, had ascended into heaven!
And how did He know? Why, He came from there!
Then where is Enoch? Let's see what the Bible says.
Enoch Walked with God
At the age of 65 Enoch had a son named Methuselah. "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and he begat sons and daughters" (Genesis 5:22).
Here was a man that PLEASED God, a man that WALKED WITH GOD.
Enoch had to have faith, for in Hebrews 11:6 the Apostle said, "But without faith it is impossible to PLEASE Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." So Enoch walked with God. He obeyed God, and followed Him in His paths BY FAITH.
No one can walk with God unless he is in agreement with the will of God and doing it. Amos the prophet said: "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3.) So in his generation Enoch was the only recorded person who followed the ways of God—even though it possibly took him sixty-five years to learn to walk with God!
But how long did Enoch walk with God? The Scripture says that he "walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years." So Enoch followed God's ways for three hundred years. Notice that Moses did not record that Enoch is still walking with God. The Scripture says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years and not one year more! Then Enoch is not still walking with God! Why?
Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty-five years" (Gen. 5:23). All the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Not just part of his days, but all his days! If Enoch did not die—if he was changed to immortality—and thus continued to walk with God, then his days would have been more than three hundred and sixty-five years. But the Bible plainly says that ALL his days were just that many, and no more!
This expression "all his days" is used in the same fifth chapter of Genesis about a dozen times and always it means that the person lived for that length of time ONLY "and he died." So Enoch lived NO MORE than three hundred and sixty-five years because "all his days were three hundred and sixty-five years." As he lived only for this length of time THEN HE MUST HAVE DIED!
But what about his translation? Does that mean he didn't die?
That's what most people carelessly assume without proof
What Really Happened at Enoch's Translation!
Remember, Moses didn't write that Enoch did not die. Rather Moses wrote that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he "was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).
Thus the Scripture records that Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him. THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THAT ENOCH WENT TO HEAVEN when he was translated. Instead it says he was not found.
Certainly Enoch was "translated," but what does the word "translate" mean?
Strange as it may seem, nowhere in all the Bible does "translate" mean to make immortal!
The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi. According to Strong's Concordance it signifies: transfer, transport, exchange, change sides.
The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16. Here we read that after Jacob DIED his body was "carried over"—transported, TRANSLATED—to Sychem WHERE HE WAS BURIED! That's what your Bible says! Jacob was transported or TRANSLATED to the place of burial!
That is why Moses said that God TOOK Enoch. God removed—translated—him so that he was not found. God took Enoch and buried him!
In Deuteronomy 34:6 we read also how God took Moses from the people after which he died and was buried by God. "But no man knoweth his sepulcher unto this day." God removed Moses—God translated him—and he was not found either!
So Enoch was not made immortal after all! He was taken away and was not found. ALL his days were three hundred and sixty-five! That's as long as Enoch lived.
Notice another proof that "translate" does not mean to make immortal. It is found in Col. 1:13: the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath TRANSLATED us into the kingdom of His dear Son." Here the Bible says that Christians are already translated—but Christians still die! We are not immortal bodies, but mortal flesh and blood. Although we were once part of the darkness of this world, now we are TRANSLATED, removed from darkness into the light of the kingdom of God.
Didn't Receive the Promise
Enoch is included by Paul (in Hebrews 11) among the fathers who obtained a good report through faith; but "ALL these, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise" (Heb. 11:39). What promise? The "hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (Titus 1:2).
So Enoch therefore is one of "ALL THESE" who have not yet obtained the promise of eternal life and inheritance. Enoch and all the worthies of old will receive the promise of eternal life at the return of Christ, the same time Christians obtain it (Heb. 11:40). That is yet future!
Since Enoch has not yet inherited eternal life he must be dead! This is exactly what Paul writes in Heb. 11:13! Paul says Enoch DIED! Notice it! "These ALL died in faith, not having received what was promised:' Who were these "ALL"?
Paul tells us: Abel, ENOCH, Noah, and the patriarchs and their wives. Hebrews 11:1-12 lists those who had faith and Enoch is included among them. Then in verse 13 Paul proved that they had not inherited the promises by saying: "These ALL [including Enoch] died in faith?'
But what about Paul's saying that Enoch "should not see death"?
Which Death Did Enoch Escape?
Enoch lived only three hundred sixty-five years. Then what could Paul possibly have meant by saying: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found because God had translated him?" This verse nowhere says that Enoch did not die. Rather, it says that Enoch "should not see death." But what does it mean?
Remember, there is more than one death mentioned in the Bible. There is a first death, and there is a second death (Rev. 20:6). Which death did Paul mean?
The first death is appointed unto men (Heb. 9:27). That death cannot be humanly evaded. It is inevitable. That death Enoch died, as we have already proved.
But Paul was not writing about that death. The phrase "should not see" is in the conditional tense of the verb, having reference to a future event. It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see" death—but that he "should not see death." So this death that Enoch escaped by being translated is one that he can escape in the future ON CERTAIN CONDITIONS!
Did Jesus ever speak of a death that might be escaped? He certainly did! In John 8:51 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my sayings, he shall never see death"—shall never see— that is, suffer—the second death! And again in John 11:26, "Whoso liveth and believeth in me shall never die"—or "shall not die forever."
This death is one that can be escaped on condition that men keep the sayings of Jesus and believe Him. This death is not the first death, because Christians who keep Jesus' sayings die this first death. Then the death which Enoch should escape must be the second death which will NEVER TOUCH THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION (Rev. 20:6). And Enoch will be in the first resurrection because he met the conditions!
Enoch had faith. He believed God and walked with God, obeying Him. In keeping the sayings of God, Enoch kept the sayings of Jesus too; because Jesus did not speak of Himself, but spoke what the Father commanded Him (John 14:10).
Thus Enoch met the conditions so that he should not see death. The second death shall never touch Enoch, because of his faith and obedience.
Two Translations
Now we can understand Hebrews 11:5: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
This verse plainly mentions two translations.
Examining this verse fact by fact, we notice that Enoch had faith and was translated. This translation—removal, transference—was on condition of FAITH. NOW what translation mentioned in the Bible is on condition of faith? Why, the one we read about in Colossians 1:13. The Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son."
This is a FIGURATIVE translation—a FIGURATIVE removal or transference from the spiritual darkness of this world to the light of the family or kingdom of God and Christ. In verse 10 Paul shows that to abide in this kingdom we must "walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing." This is exactly what Enoch did. He walked with God, and pleased God.
Then Enoch, the same as Christians, was delivered from the power of sin and darkness in which he had been living for sixty-five years. He was removed (translated) from the ways of the world and lived three hundred years according to God's ways so that he might inherit eternal life at Christ's return, and should not suffer the second death.
By faith Enoch was separated—removed or translated—from the world, the same as Christians who are not to be a part of the world, although living in the world.
Not only was Enoch FIGURATIVELY taken from the society of his day, but he was also LITERALLY removed—translated—so that he was not found.
God took him physically away from the people, just as He later took Moses. And God buried each so well that neither has ever been found since! Enoch had completed this present normal life. "All his days were three hundred sixty-five years." This was the second translation—a literal removal at death.
God gave Enoch this sign of physical removal as a type for all those who should later follow Enoch's example of faith. He was taken physically from the people just as Christians are to be spiritually removed from the ways of the world. The physical translation or carrying away of Enoch was also a sign to him from God that his faith had been accepted.
Like every true saint, Enoch is awaiting the hope of the resurrection and the return of Christ (Jude 14, 15).
Did Elijah Go To Heaven?
You have been told that Elijah went to heaven. Yet over 900 years after Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind Jesus Himself said. "NO MAN ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man!" (John 3:13.)
Is this a Bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to the heaven where God's throne is—even though Jesus said he didn't?
If Elijah is not in heaven today, then where did Elijah go?
Which Heaven?
There are three heavens mentioned in the Bible, not just one! And if, as Jesus said, no man, which included Elijah, had ever ascended to the heaven where He came from, then the heaven into which Elijah was taken was a different heaven!
Which one was it?
The third heaven is the heaven of God's throne, where Jesus is today. Jesus, being the High Priest of God, is the only one who has the right to be in that heaven with the Father.
Notice why! Hebrews 8:1-5 explains that the original earthly tabernacle under the Old Covenant, with its most holy place, or compartment, was the type of the throne of God in heaven. Only the high priest—type of Christ as High Priest now—was allowed to enter!
The second heaven represents the expanse of this great universe—the space where we find the sun, moon, stars, comets and planets. How often do we find the Psalmist admiring the "heavens, the work of Thy fingers, the moon, and the stars, which Thou has ordained" (Psalm 8:3; Genesis 1:15-17).
Beside the heaven of the stars, we find that the atmosphere, the air that surrounds this world, is also called heaven. Birds fly "in the midst of heaven"— certainly not God's throne in heaven—for we read in Genesis 1:20 of "fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." In blessing Jacob, Isaac said; "God give thee of the dew of heaven:' and Moses joyed that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (see Gen. 27:28 and Deut. 33:28).
This first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Everyone of us is right now breathing the air of heaven!
Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go?—for the Scripture reads: "and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (II Kings 2:1, 11).
The answer ought already be quite obvious! Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven"—not to the heaven of God's throne, but into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven.
There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth—in the first heaven, in which the birds fly. You certainly have seen the great lifting power of a whirlwind, haven't you?
Why Taken Up?
What was the reason for this unusual act of God? Why did He take Elijah up into the atmosphere? Was it to make him immortal? No! The Scripture says no word about that! The ancient prophets—including Elijah—did not receive any promise of immortality prior to or apart from us. Notice it in Hebrews 11:13 and 39: "These all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise!" And we shall not receive it until Christ returns (Heb. 11:40).
So Elijah was not to be made immortal—for that would give him pre-eminence above Jesus. But what does the Bible reveal as the reason for his removal? II Kings 2:3 and 5 has the answer.
Notice now what the sons of the prophets said to Elisha: "Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head today?" Or as the Smith and Goodspeed translation has it, "Do you know that today the Lord is about to take away your master from being your leader?" Christ is the head of the Church today as Elijah was the head or leader of the sons or disciples of the prophets in that day. God had sent Elijah as His prophet to wicked king Ahab and to his son Ahaziah. Now God wanted Elisha to direct His work, as Ahaziah the king had died (II Kings 1-18) and a new king was ruling.
So what did God do?
He could not allow Elijah to be among the people with Elisha directing the work now. That would have been the same as disqualifying him! God never takes an office from a man when that man has been performing his duty well, the only thing God could do would have been to remove Elijah so that another would fulfill the office.
This God did do. When he was taken up, Elijah's mantle dropped from him and Elisha picked it up. See II Kings 2:12-15.
And what did the "mantle" mean?
In Clarke's Commentary we note that it was "worn by prophets and priests as the simple insignia of their office." (Vol. 2, page 484.)
The purpose of God in removing Elijah was to replace him with another man who would occupy Elijah's office in Israel for another fifty years. This work had to start under a new king, for Ahaziah had just died. And Elijah was already aging. So as not to disqualify Elijah in the sight of the people, God took him away from the sons of the prophets and the people, allowing the mantle which signified the office of Elijah to drop into the hands of Elisha. Thus God preserved the name and office of His prophet.
How Taken Up?
Having crossed Jordan near Jericho, Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind in what appeared to be a chariot and horses of fire. The violent motion of the wind pulled the mantle off the prophet as he was seen to ascend into the sky. You probably remember reading the promise of Elijah that Elisha would have a double portion of the Spirit of God if he would be allowed by God to see Elijah taken up (II Kings 2:9). All this meant that Elisha was to be the leader, the new head of the sons of the prophets.
Having ascended into the air, Elijah was borne away out of the sight of the new leader—beyond the horizon. But—
Where Did Elijah Go?
This has been the perplexing problem to so many!
He did not ascend to the throne of God. Jesus said so! Yet he couldn't remain in the air forever.
And God did not say that Elijah was to die at that time. If he were, Elisha could have assumed his new office without the removal of Elijah, for we know that Elisha died in office after fulfilling his duty (II Kings 13:14).
The sons of the prophets who knew that their master was to be removed also that Elijah was not to die then. That is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have allowed him to drop "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (II Kings 2:16). Elisha knew that God would preserve Elijah from falling, but at their insistence he permitted men to go in search for him—to no avail.
Elijah was gone!
And where to? Certainly the whirlwind used by God could not take him beyond the earth's atmosphere. Neither does the Bible account leave Elijah in the air!
The Answer Unfolds
Let us notice the next few years and see what further events the Scripture records. The new king of Israel was another son of Ahab, Jehoram, or Joram as he is sometimes called. The beginning of his reign marked the year of the removal of Elijah (II Kings 1:18 and 3:1). During this king's reign Elisha was the recognized prophet of God (II Kings 3:11). In the fifth year of Joram king of Israel, the son of the king of Judah began to reign along with his father in Judah (II Kings 8:16). His name also was Jehoram. The first thing he did to establish his kingdom rule was to put his relatives to the sword lest they should claim the throne from him (11 Chronicles 2 1:4). For nearly six years he followed the ways of the nations about him and did evil in God's sight.
Almost ten years had now expired since Elijah was taken from the people. But what do you think was about to happen?
--- continued
A Letter Comes from Elijah!
Yes, after this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king!
The contents of the letter are found in II Chronicles 21:12-15. In part it reads: "Because thou hast not walked in the ways of. . . thy father . - . but hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel.. . and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself. . . thou shalt have great sickness by disease."
From the wording of the letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the disease as future. Two years after the king became diseased the king died—having reigned only eight short years (II Chronicles 21:18-20).
This proves that the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwind.
God used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in days of the present king's father—and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosophat.
The letter he had others deliver was recognized as his—proving that he was known to be alive someplace. Just how much longer he lived, the Bible does not reveal. But in that "it is appointed unto men once to die"—Elijah must have died somewhat later. See Hebrews 9:27. All human beings born of Adam, and that includes Elijah, must die—for we read: "In Adam ALL DIE" (I Corinthians 15:22). Elijah was a man "subject to like passions as we are" (James 5:17)...subject to human nature and death! The prophet, being mortal flesh as we are, could not have lived much beyond his seventy years.
To suppose that God gave him the power of an endless life of nearly three thousand years already is to read into the Bible what is not there! He was mortal, subject to death, and after being lifted into the atmospheric heavens, spent the remaining years of his separate life at some little-known location on the earth, living as every human being, before he naturally died.
Was Elijah on the Mount?
The only remaining texts that puzzle people are those relative to the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus. The record of the event is found in Matthew 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-10; Luke 9:28-36.
Leaving the mountain, Jesus told his disciples: "Tell the vision to no man (Mat. 17:9)." A vision is not a material reality but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes.
Moses died, and was buried (Deut. 34:5-6). Both he and Elijah were still dead in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in the glory of the resurrection—an event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained (Heb. 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming kingdom.
How plain the Bible is! Elijah is dead in the dust of the earth awaiting the resurrection of the just. Elijah, some years after being removed in the whirlwind, went to the grave, but will rise again to live forevermore!
I have some problems with those articles.
one is
So Enoch was not made immortal after all! He was taken away and was not found. ALL his days were three hundred and sixty-five! That's as long as Enoch lived
This could mean that Enoch lived upon the earth for three hundred and sixty-five days, but lived the rest in heaven, just like jesus lived for 30 or so years and then lived in heaven for over a thousand years.
And the 2nd article by whitewings
Says that it is a vision. But how would all the disciples see the vision, I thought that visions were particular to the person and to no one else. I don't know if there is another example of a vision in the bible where more than one person receives it. Also if I remember correctly Elijah and Moses were discussing what was about to take place i.e I assume, the cross.
:cloud9: that's a good point, TT.....
Quote from: thinktank on August 09, 2010, 07:33:13 PM
I have some problems with those articles.
one is
So Enoch was not made immortal after all! He was taken away and was not found. ALL his days were three hundred and sixty-five! That's as long as Enoch lived
This could mean that Enoch lived upon the earth for three hundred and sixty-five days, but lived the rest in heaven, just like jesus lived for 30 or so years and then lived in heaven for over a thousand years.
And the 2nd article by whitewings
Says that it is a vision. But how would all the disciples see the vision, I thought that visions were particular to the person and to no one else. I don't know if there is another example of a vision in the bible where more than one person receives it. Also if I remember correctly Elijah and Moses were discussing what was about to take place i.e I assume, the cross.
Not all the disciples Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, and James, and John his brother, and doth bring them up to a high mount by themselves,
Okay, I guess I will have to give in to speculation, assumtion, and different articles of mens speculation and assumption and draw a line thru....Joh 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
There have been others who ascended to heaven besides Jesus
Peace
Quote from: thinktank on August 09, 2010, 07:33:13 PMI have some problems with those articles.
Just posted for consideration that's all.
QuoteSo Enoch was not made immortal after all! He was taken away and was not found. ALL his days were three hundred and sixty-five! That's as long as Enoch lived
This could mean that Enoch lived upon the earth for three hundred and sixty-five days, but lived the rest in heaven, just like jesus lived for 30 or so years and then lived in heaven for over a thousand years.
"No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" (John 3:13). <= A very direct verse.
KJVGen 5:21-23 21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
==> When he was 65 years old Methuselah was born.
22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
==>
After the birth of Methuselah Enoch walked 300 years with God. ==> 65+300=365
23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
==> Enoch's totall life span was 365 years.
==> So I think it's proved 'the walking with God' ended at a age of 365 years.
If Enoch is in heaven I assume he would still be walking with God. So when this verse was written Enoch was walking with God much longer than 300 years. :2c:
From The Cristian Bible.
[....] is a commentary not like the
italics of KJV
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was transfered [to the beginning of the Last Age], so that he wasn't acquainted with death; and he wasn't found because God transferred him [Gen. 5:2]. For before the transfer he hd received testimony that he was very pleasing to God.
So according to the comment Enoch is not in heaven but lives in another time...??
BTW when is the last age? Is it before of after The Son hands over His kingdom to Father?
It would also mean the Biblical timeline is not not just ordinary time.
If the comment is right the problem is solved.
a] Enoch still lives.
b] Enoch is not in heaven.
c] Enoch was transported to another time and that's why nobody could find him.
Quoting J. Preston Eby http://www.godfire.net/eby/rev-11.html
"by what authority do we contend that Enoch and Elijah left planet earth and have, for the past several thousand years, been living in some far-off heaven somewhere in immortal bodies that escaped death! Nowhere does the scripture say that Elijah never died. It only says he was "taken," and he was seen being caught into a whirlwind. I have seen many things caught up in whirlwinds, my friend, including buildings and trees, and they were surely transferred some place, some of them never seen again. But they did not go to heaven! Ah, beloved, we do such superficial thinking!
I do not for one moment doubt that Enoch had a great and glorious spiritual experience that raised him up into a new dimension of spiritual life, for that is the outcome in any age of walking with God! He "was not" any more the same old Enoch, nor was He "found" any more in the old realm of sin and death consciousness and existence. But the scripture plainly states that HE DIED! Oh, how we need to let go of all the old religious traditions and believe what God has said! Our blessed Lord Jesus Christ, who came out of the tomb in a glorious body of divine life and power has told us from that state of resurrection life and immortality that HE HIMSELF IS THE FIRST BEGOTTEN, THE FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD! The question follows — if Enoch and Elijah were able to attain this apart from the resurrection of Jesus Christ, then why would any of us have needed Jesus to open the way for us? Jesus would not have been the first man to overcome death — Enoch would have been first! This strikes at the very root of the redemption accomplished through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our hope of full and complete redemption, including the redemption of our bodies, lies not with Enoch and Elijah, great as those men were, for only Jesus has the experience, and therefore the power, to change our vile bodies that they may be fashioned like unto His body of glory! Blessed be the firstborn Son!"
Quote from: thinktank on August 09, 2010, 07:33:13 PM
And the 2nd article by whitewings
Even more problems :laughing7:
QuoteSays that it is a vision. But how would all the disciples see the vision, I thought that visions were particular to the person and to no one else. I don't know if there is another example of a vision in the bible where more than one person receives it.
KJVMat 3:14-17 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
How many/who did hear that voice? At least two I would say. Jesus already knew He was/is the Son of God. And teh voice was speaking
about Jesus.
It's safe to assume Jesus heard the voice + John the Baptist and perhaps more people.
==> 1 vision several people.
When suddenly, Saul's journey was interrupted: a "great Light shined all around them", and Saul was "struck blind and unable to see". A voice from the Light "spoke to Saul, saying, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?'" Saul himself answered, "Whom art thou, lord?" (If confronted by a powerful angel from God, it was thought best to be respectful.) The voice from the Light answered, "I am Jesus, whom thou art persecuting" (by persecuting His followers, the Christians, Saul was also indirectly persecuting Jesus. But by attempting to destroy His followers and believers, and thus, their beliefs and thereby to eradicate His teachings, Saul was directly persecuting Jesus Himself, who died upon the Cross after bringing His teachings to the world). "It is difficult for you to kick against the goads", Jesus continued. Jesus concluded by directing Saul to go in to the City, and to meet Him there. The rest of the religious, persecuting party that had accompanied Saul heard the Voice from Heaven, but saw nothing. (In other words, the vision was for Saul alone). The men brought Saul, who had been struck blind, into the city of Damascus, where they left him at an inn. ==> Several people heard the voice.
It is puzling and intriguing as to what this means. For the scripture says in hebrews, that enoch did not see death.
Elijah was taken up to a whirlwind to heaven. Other people have been to heaven including joshua the high priest and God gave him a new robe in heaven. So perhaps that verse "no man has ascended except the son of man"
Maybe it means that no man in their own power can go to heaven, only Jesus the son of man can do that, because he is God. :2c:
Jesus said noone ascended to heaven. Unless someone can show me a translation error that's a fact for me.
There are 3 heaven (or more) in the Bible.
1] Sky/atmosphere.
2] Universe.
3] Where God lives.
The heaven Jesus spoke about was #3
Whirlwind to #1 ???
Can you quote the Joshua and the robe verses?
If they still live and are not in #3 then they must be somewhere else. Basicly it could be anywhere. For example an undiscovered island. 5000 miles away where nobody knew them. Or as I qouted: Another time.
All speculation. But just ignoring Jesus saying noone went to heaven is an even worse option IMO.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2010, 09:30:42 PM
Jesus said noone ascended to heaven. Unless someone can show me a translation error that's a fact for me.
There are 3 heaven (or more) in the Bible.
1] Sky/atmosphere.
2] Universe.
3] Where God lives.
The heaven Jesus spoke about was #3
Whirlwind to #1 ???
Can you quote the Joshua and the robe verses?
If they still live and are not in #3 then they must be somewhere else. Basicly it could be anywhere. For example an undiscovered island. 5000 miles away where nobody knew them. Or as I qouted: Another time.
All speculation. But just ignoring Jesus saying noone went to heaven is an even worse option IMO.
Zechariah 3
Quote from: jabcat on August 09, 2010, 08:42:38 PM
Quoting J. Preston Eby http://www.godfire.net/eby/rev-11.html
"by what authority do we contend that Enoch and Elijah left planet earth and have, for the past several thousand years, been living in some far-off heaven somewhere in immortal bodies that escaped death! Nowhere does the scripture say that Elijah never died. It only says he was "taken," and he was seen being caught into a whirlwind. I have seen many things caught up in whirlwinds, my friend, including buildings and trees, and they were surely transferred some place, some of them never seen again. But they did not go to heaven! Ah, beloved, we do such superficial thinking!
I do not for one moment doubt that Enoch had a great and glorious spiritual experience that raised him up into a new dimension of spiritual life, for that is the outcome in any age of walking with God! He "was not" any more the same old Enoch, nor was He "found" any more in the old realm of sin and death consciousness and existence. But the scripture plainly states that HE DIED! Oh, how we need to let go of all the old religious traditions and believe what God has said! Our blessed Lord Jesus Christ, who came out of the tomb in a glorious body of divine life and power has told us from that state of resurrection life and immortality that HE HIMSELF IS THE FIRST BEGOTTEN, THE FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD! The question follows — if Enoch and Elijah were able to attain this apart from the resurrection of Jesus Christ, then why would any of us have needed Jesus to open the way for us? Jesus would not have been the first man to overcome death — Enoch would have been first! This strikes at the very root of the redemption accomplished through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our hope of full and complete redemption, including the redemption of our bodies, lies not with Enoch and Elijah, great as those men were, for only Jesus has the experience, and therefore the power, to change our vile bodies that they may be fashioned like unto His body of glory! Blessed be the firstborn Son!"
Very good, very good indeed.
Quote from: thinktank on August 09, 2010, 09:50:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2010, 09:30:42 PM
Jesus said noone ascended to heaven. Unless someone can show me a translation error that's a fact for me.
There are 3 heaven (or more) in the Bible.
1] Sky/atmosphere.
2] Universe.
3] Where God lives.
The heaven Jesus spoke about was #3
Whirlwind to #1 ???
Can you quote the Joshua and the robe verses?
If they still live and are not in #3 then they must be somewhere else. Basicly it could be anywhere. For example an undiscovered island. 5000 miles away where nobody knew them. Or as I qouted: Another time.
All speculation. But just ignoring Jesus saying noone went to heaven is an even worse option IMO.
Zechariah 3
What verse does state he was in heaven?
I only read that the angel(s) and the Lord
came.
Not that Zechariah was taken to heaven (or elsewhere)
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2010, 10:15:53 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 09, 2010, 09:50:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2010, 09:30:42 PM
Jesus said noone ascended to heaven. Unless someone can show me a translation error that's a fact for me.
There are 3 heaven (or more) in the Bible.
1] Sky/atmosphere.
2] Universe.
3] Where God lives.
The heaven Jesus spoke about was #3
Whirlwind to #1 ???
Can you quote the Joshua and the robe verses?
If they still live and are not in #3 then they must be somewhere else. Basicly it could be anywhere. For example an undiscovered island. 5000 miles away where nobody knew them. Or as I qouted: Another time.
All speculation. But just ignoring Jesus saying noone went to heaven is an even worse option IMO.
Zechariah 3
What verse does state he was in heaven?
I only read that the angel(s) and the Lord came.
Not that Zechariah was taken to heaven (or elsewhere)
Hes asleep, but the verse said he standing before the lord, there isn't a verse that says he's in heaven but he could be :dontknow:
Another thing to consider is that time is different in heaven than on earth I think, for one day is as a thousand to the lord. So if Elijah did not go to heaven then I agree with you that he was translated in time to another place. If the mount of transfiguration was actually Elijah, then maybe he's upon the earth but people did not recognize him.
Jesus said Elias has come already but they did not regard him. Maybe he meant that Elijah had come/returned in angelic/spiritual form. :dontknow:
Because I for one belive that Elijah will be one of the 2 witnesses and so maybe Elijah is upon the earth but is invisible, until the day of witnessing against the beast and his kingdom.
Quote from: thinktank on August 09, 2010, 10:27:24 PMAnother thing to consider is that time is different in heaven than on earth I think, for one day is as a thousand to the lord.
Jesus said nobody. He didn't mention any duration. Well, indirectly He said never. So, imo, not even a second.
QuoteSo if Elijah did not go to heaven then I agree with you that he was translated in time to another place. If the mount of transfiguration was actually Elijah, then maybe he's upon the earth but people did not recognize him.
Matthew 17:11-12 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you that Elijah is come already and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatever they listed."
In other words, Christ says the prophesy that Elijah shall come first is true. "But I say unto you" that it's already fulfilled. In the Greek literally verse 12 says, "Elijah indeed comes first, and restores all things.." So Christ has plainly told them that the prophesy was true, "BUT" that Elijah had come already and they didn't even know him. So not only do we see in this verse that Christ references the prophesy of Elijah as "true" but also that this Elijah had come, this prophesy fulfilled,
and wasn't recognized by them.
.....
Esaias is the Greek transliteration of the name Isaiah. So I hope that you won't be ignoring this plain declaration as so many others have done. It not only says that this (John the Baptist) "IS HE," but also that it was him "that was prophesied" to come before Christ by Isaiah. I mean really, how many ways does God have to say that a scripture is fulfilled before some people actually start to believe it? There is no scripture that says it wasn't fulfilled, or that it must be fulfilled again, or that it was only half fulfilled. Those ideas are simply the creative manipulation of scripture by teachers who choose not to follow the scriptures, but to lead them. And all under the convenient blanket of the alleged "double fulfillment." God says "this was" the fulfillment of that prophesied in Isaiah.
......
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/was_john_the_baptist_elijah.shtml (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/was_john_the_baptist_elijah.shtml)
thetrumpet.com/cache/Elijah%20Has%20Come%20Already.pdf (http://thetrumpet.com/cache/Elijah%20Has%20Come%20Already.pdf)
http://agnosticreview.com/whereselijah.htm
Luke 1:13,17
But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
==> That's not literally.
Actually Scripture didn't say "nobody" it says "no man". There's a big difference when looking at the spiritual principles involved here. If it's literally no person can ever enter into heaven. . .then why do other places state that we are already seated with him in heavenly places? Sounds like there has to be an ascension of some sort taking place for that to happen. Which would then cause me to revert back to "no man of flesh" can ascend. . .which then fits the pattern again.
And as to your last post here WW . .you say it wasn't literally . . .you don't think John the Baptist could literally have the same anointing on him as Elijah did?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2010, 11:00:44 PM
http://agnosticreview.com/whereselijah.htm
Luke 1:13,17
But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
==> That's not literally.
John said from his own mouth that he wasn't Elias. so who are ye
"I am one that dwelleth in the wilderness to make the paths straight."
And you say above that he is in the spirit and power of Elijah, so it must mean Elijah's anointing that was upon him, was transfered to John, just as Elisha had his anoitning also.
So that means that the prophecy has not been fullfilled in malachi and is yet to happen.
Does Elias mean Isiah? If so that brings to light this idea.
Quote from: Nathan on August 09, 2010, 11:11:14 PMActually Scripture didn't say "nobody" it says "no man".
For me tha
QuoteThere's a big difference when looking at the spiritual principles involved here. If it's literally no person can ever enter into heaven.
I didn't say never. Neither did Jesus imo. For me in theory billions could have ascended 1 second after Jesus. Jesus was the first. Not the only one.
Quote. .then why do other places state that we are already seated with him in heavenly places?
Can't recall that so can't comment but I take a guess before going to bed...
When I become religious doesn't that mean I in a way 'ascend'. I'll repeat myself as I did with "fallen" and "angel": What is the exact defenition of ascend?
I'll give two relavant ones.
A king that ascends the throne doesn't go anywhere. He just gets a higher rank.
A window cleaner that ascends a ladder moves up. (but doesn't get a higher rank.
QuoteAnd as to your last post here WW . .you say it wasn't literally . . .you don't think John the Baptist could literally have the same anointing on him as Elijah did?
For me literal is the same man of flesh and blood. Nothing spiritual at all.
[quote
For me literal is the same man of flesh and blood. Nothing spiritual at all.
[/quote]
Ah, then of course he wasn't . .. I understand that much. That would be a platform for reincarnation if it were literally true.
The anointing comes from God though and I belive that is transferable. It must be some kind of mantle or vessel that contains the faith of Elijah, so that it's power can be transfered to another. A spiritual mystery, or mastery!.
Quote from: Nathan on August 09, 2010, 11:46:25 PM
[quote
For me literal is the same man of flesh and blood. Nothing spiritual at all.
Ah, then of course he wasn't . .. I understand that much. That would be a platform for reincarnation if it were literally true.
[/quote]Not nessecarily. Reincarnation requires death....
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2010, 04:49:07 PM
You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven :laughing7:
Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm
"You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven"
I only found that he fell from heaven, when did he go back and forth?
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2010, 12:03:05 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2010, 04:49:07 PM
You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven :laughing7:
Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm
"You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven"
I only found that he fell from heaven, when did he go back and forth?
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
NIVJob 1:6-7 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
Assuming the Lord was sitting in heaven...
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2010, 12:06:45 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2010, 12:03:05 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2010, 04:49:07 PM
You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven :laughing7:
Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm
"You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven"
I only found that he fell from heaven, when did he go back and forth?
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
NIVJob 1:6-7 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
Assuming the Lord was sitting in heaven...
As you assume.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2010, 12:06:45 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2010, 12:03:05 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2010, 04:49:07 PM
You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven :laughing7:
Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm
"You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven"
I only found that he fell from heaven, when did he go back and forth?
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
NIVJob 1:6-7 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
Assuming the Lord was sitting in heaven...
Combine it with rev 12 and it makes sense that God is in heaven here. The accuser of the brethren was cast down so rejoice.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2010, 12:10:53 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2010, 12:06:45 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2010, 12:03:05 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2010, 04:49:07 PM
You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven :laughing7:
Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm
"You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven"
I only found that he fell from heaven, when did he go back and forth?
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
NIVJob 1:6-7 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
Assuming the Lord was sitting in heaven...
As you assume.
Doesn't that mean Satan ascended and decended many times to/from heaven? And likely the same can be said about 'the angels'.
Long before Jesus said that nobody did so.
:JCThink:
Not sure, but doesn't the scripture say "no man"?
Remember, the story of Job:
Job 1:6-8 (King James Version)
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered the servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth; a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth (gives reverence to the SPIRIT) God, and escheweth evil?
"Truth is something not before realized."
This story did not take place in another realm, in the hereafter – rather, it was confined to the limitations of Men on earth as opposed to heaven, who professed to represent the SPIRIT. Consider a court case in which there is a victim, an accuser, defendant, Magistrate, and a King. Men appear to write their versions of truth based on their belief systems. Thus, their written words (and altered translations) are fallible. But as few here say, "there are deeper truths" in the Scriptures which are not seen on the surface. They must be spiritually discerned through eyes that see, and ears that hear not the voices of men.
I see a ribbon of truth that runs through the Scriptures in the form of a braided rope; the voice of the SPIRIT. We are ONE with the SPIRIT, experiencing the physical realm. The SPIRIT cannot experience these things, except through the state of this flesh. Which begs the question, "Why are we called to overcome?" Is there any other way!
"The totality of any experience must be real, not predicated on false beliefs."
Perhaps, this is a reason for the presence of evil?
For the eyes of the SPIRIT run to and fro throughout the whole earth ... (2 Chronicles 16:9)
...the eyes of the SPIRIT are in every place; beholding the evil and the good. (Proverbs 15:3)
Quote from: jabcat on August 10, 2010, 08:46:21 AM
Not sure, but doesn't the scripture say "no man"?
Yeah, that's true.
Are Enoch and Eliah men if say only their spirit went to heaven? Or their body got changed before they acended.
If angels can ascend and descent then it also shows we are not angels as sometimes suggested
Quote from: jabcat on August 10, 2010, 08:46:21 AM
Not sure, but doesn't the scripture say "no man"?
I found most translations to read "no one."
Joh 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven. (YLT)
:sigh:
Yeah only KJV seems to use no man..
If "no one" includes man, spirit, angels, etc then we have a problem.
Father walked in the Garden of Eden.
Father moved over the deep at creation.
Father is in heaven.
So there was at least one (Father) that ascended before Jesus. And likely many times. :2c:
I believe that when we do are talk of heaven we become missplaced in our thinking. Some of religion teach and believe that heaven is some place, a physical realm.
I, forget alot of the time when I am studying, the one important base to start from.
Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'
Luk 17:21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
So I must reason that all the ascending and descending is happening in me Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me. The life I am now living in the body I am living by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Didn't Jesus, as a very strong believer, had the kingdom in him? And Job, Enoch, Moses ,....?
What about satan. He vistited his inner kingdom?
:dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2010, 09:03:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 10, 2010, 08:46:21 AM
Not sure, but doesn't the scripture say "no man"?
Yeah, that's true.
Are Enoch and Eliah men if say only their spirit went to heaven? Or their body got changed before they acended.
If angels can ascend and descent then it also shows we are not angels as sometimes suggested
That's a good point, maybe you've solved the puzzle :happy3:
and in oppostion to the idea that only Jesus can was us clean and make us worthy. 2 points I'd like to make.
One. it was Jesus, God who translated these fellows by his word.
2nd. These men were mighty men of faith, and with faith all things are possible
Quote from: thinktank on August 10, 2010, 07:47:57 PM
One. it was Jesus, God who translated these fellows by his word.
2nd. These men were mighty men of faith, and with faith all things are possible
I don't agree or don't understand what you mean.
Consider these 3 points.
1. Yes, God can do whatever He wishes. Including translation.
2. Jesus doesn't lie.
3. Jesus said He was the first one to ascend to heaven.
So my conclusion: Yes indeed Father
could have translated Enoch to heaven. But Jesus said Father did
not do that. :dontknow:
John 3:13
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man
"ascended" [into heaven]
G305
αναβαίνω
anabainō
an-ab-ah'ee-no
From G303 and the base of G939; to go up (literally or figuratively): - arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).
It means literally to walk up to heaven, as baino means to walk, [ the foot].
Sounds a lot like Jacob's ladder.
Genesis 28:12
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
This is, in part, prophecy which Jacob sees, as Jesus references it later--
John 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Jesus is saying here that he is the ladder.
This seems to me to be a different concept from being translated, which has more the connotation of being carried by others.
Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
"translated"
G3346
μετατίθημι
metatithēmi
met-at-ith'-ay-mee
From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.
The word in the Old Testament refers to being in a horizontal position when carried, in other words, it is totally passive on the part of the one being carried.
But, we see that because of Jesus translating us into the kingdom, we will be more active in our abilities to 'ascend.'
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
--Heb 12
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
"come" [boldly]
G4334
προσέρχομαι
proserchomai
pros-er'-khom-ahee
From G4314 and G2064 (including its alternate); to approach, that is, (literally) come near, visit, or (figuratively) worship, assent to: - (as soon as he) come (unto), come thereunto, consent, draw near, go (near, to, unto).
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2010, 08:16:19 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 10, 2010, 07:47:57 PM
One. it was Jesus, God who translated these fellows by his word.
2nd. These men were mighty men of faith, and with faith all things are possible
I don't agree or don't understand what you mean.
Consider these 3 points.
1. Yes, God can do whatever He wishes. Including translation.
2. Jesus doesn't lie.
3. Jesus said He was the first one to ascend to heaven.
So my conclusion: Yes indeed Father could have translated Enoch to heaven. But Jesus said Father did not do that. :dontknow:
The correct translation is that Jesus said no man has gone to heaven excpet the son of man.
Here's why.
The flaming cheribum guarding the tree of life, where are they? They must have ascended into heaven
2nd jacobs ladder, saw angels ascending and descending, this before Christ made that statment.
So you said Enoch translated, so that he is no longer accounted as a man, but perhaps is fashioned in the same way that we will be, one day, which Jesus said they are as the angels of heaven, neither marrying or given in mariage.
:idea2: :JCThink: :idea2:
TCBJoh 3:13 Now no one has ascended into heaven, except the One who decended out of heaven, the Son of Humanity.
Both decending and ascending are mentioned.
Quote from: MollyFrom G303 and the base of G939; to go up (literally or figuratively): - arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).
What about grow Molly? Grown in faith.
Quote from: MollyIt means literally to walk up to heaven, as baino means to walk, [ the foot].
According to ISA2 HAS-UP-STEPPED
/Edit imo step can have many different meanings. Including promotion while sitting in a chair...
KJVGen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
What does it mean? Heaven is a literal place somewhere? Or is it just spiritual symbolism?
Quote from: MollyFrom G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.
The word in the Old Testament refers to being in a horizontal position when carried, in other words, it is totally passive on the part of the one being carried.
May off-topic but possibly a hint. The friends of the groom carried the bride that way.
Quote from: thinktank on August 10, 2010, 09:25:42 PMThe correct translation is that Jesus said no man has gone to heaven excpet the son of man.
Only KJV uses "no man" the other versions I checked all use "no one".
QuoteHere's why.
The flaming cheribum guarding the tree of life, where are they? They must have ascended into heaven
Verse? Can't they be just here invisible?
Quote2nd jacobs ladder, saw angels ascending and descending, this before Christ made that statment.
Did Jacob see a literal thing?
I stick with Micah on this one. Jesus was very clear. I can't just ignore it. Unless ofcourse you can show the words have a different meaning as what I assume they mean...
QuoteSo you said Enoch translated, so that he is no longer accounted as a man, but perhaps is fashioned in the same way that we will be, one day, which Jesus said they are as the angels of heaven, neither marrying or given in mariage.
And that debunks it....
Say both Enoch and Jesus got a new body so they are no longer men. That would contradict John 3:13 where Jesus calls Himself a man. So no matter how glorified His body was it still called it a body of a man.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2010, 09:52:10 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 10, 2010, 09:25:42 PMThe correct translation is that Jesus said no man has gone to heaven excpet the son of man.
Only KJV uses "no man" the other versions I checked all use "no one".
QuoteHere's why.
The flaming cheribum guarding the tree of life, where are they? They must have ascended into heaven
Verse? Can't they be just here invisible?
Quote2nd jacobs ladder, saw angels ascending and descending, this before Christ made that statment.
Did Jacob see a literal thing?
I stick with Micah on this one. Jesus was very clear. I can't just ignore it. Unless ofcourse you can show the words have a different meaning as what I assume they mean...
QuoteSo you said Enoch translated, so that he is no longer accounted as a man, but perhaps is fashioned in the same way that we will be, one day, which Jesus said they are as the angels of heaven, neither marrying or given in mariage.
And that debunks it....
Say both Enoch and Jesus got a new body so they are no longer men. That would contradict John 3:13 where Jesus calls Himself a man. So no matter how glorified His body was it still called it a body of a man.
I'll stick with the kjv version as it is in harmony with the other scriptures. These other bible versions do have translation errors in them, the translator tends to put their ideas in. I'd be interested to know which bible version you read that says no one instead of no man?
That's a good point about John 3:13, though.
I switched on all Bibles in my software. Looks a bit better for the "man camp" :winkgrin:
ASV John 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
BBE John 3:13 And no one has ever gone up to heaven but he who came down from heaven, the Son of man.
CJB John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven; there is only the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
CSB John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven-- the Son of Man.
DBY John 3:13 And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.
DRA John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.
ERV John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.
ESV John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
ETH John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man, he who is in heaven.
GNV John 3:13 For no man ascendeth vp to heauen, but he that hath descended from heauen, that Sonne of man which is in heauen.
GWN John 3:13 No one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man, who came from heaven.
KJG John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
KJV John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
LEW John 3:13 and no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the Son of man which is from heaven.
MGI John 3:13 And no man has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
MIT John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven. The exception is the one who descended from heaven—the human one.
MRD John 3:13 And no one hath ascended to heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.
NAB John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
NAS John 3:13 "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.
NAU John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
NET John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven– the Son of Man.
NIB John 3:13 No-one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
NIRV John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the One who came from heaven. He is the Son of Man.
NIV John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
NJB John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man;
NKJ John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
NLT John 3:13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.
NRS John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
PNT John 3:13 And no man ascendeth vp to heauen, but he that came downe from heauen, euen the sonne of man which is in heauen.
RSV John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
RWB John 3:13 And no man hath ascended to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.
TNIV John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
TNT John 3:13 And no man ascendeth vp to heaven but he that came doune from heaven that is to saye the sonne of man which is in heaven.
WEB John 3:13 And no man hath ascended to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, {even} the Son of man who is in heaven.
YLT John 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
Cool software. It's amazing how many bible translations there are, I wonder how many are there simply to make money. :mshock:
But I found the kjv version which says the son of man which is in heaven, to be a bit odd, so maybe even my favourite bible kjv is wrong on some points :mshock: well I know it has some errors, but this could be one here.
as some of the rest, say "son of man, who is from heaven".
Quote from: thinktank on August 10, 2010, 10:22:40 PMCool software.
Indeed but pricey. Good and free software here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0
QuoteIt's amazing how many bible translations there are, I wonder how many are there simply to make money. :mshock:
Almost all. And most certainly KJV. Zondervan is a full daughter of Harper-Collins (sp?). That publisher publishes about anything. All religions including wicca and satanism. and of course p*rn mags...
Only the TCB didn't work for profit. And they are out of business :winkgrin:
QuoteBut I found the kjv version which says the son of man which is in heaven, to be a bit odd, so maybe even my favourite bible kjv is wrong on some points :mshock: well I know it has some errors, but this could be one here.
as some of the rest, say "son of man, who is from heaven".
Know know, TT, I'm not making statement about "no man" and "no one" because whatever the translating it still doesn't solve my 'problem'. I was merely pointing out that translators are very devided on it.
That said I edge to "no one" because that's the way my it is in my most trusted translations.
Biased. Yeah likely just as much as you are biased toward KJV.
I just don't trust Free Mason leaders. => King James was one.... :mshock:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2010, 10:34:55 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 10, 2010, 10:22:40 PMCool software.
Indeed but pricey. Good and free software here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0
QuoteIt's amazing how many bible translations there are, I wonder how many are there simply to make money. :mshock:
Almost all. And most certainly KJV. Zondervan is a full daughter of Harper-Collins (sp?). That publisher publishes about anything. All religions including wicca and satanism. and of course p*rn mags...
The only the TCB don't work for profit. And they are out of business :winkgrin:
QuoteBut I found the kjv version which says the son of man which is in heaven, to be a bit odd, so maybe even my favourite bible kjv is wrong on some points :mshock: well I know it has some errors, but this could be one here.
as some of the rest, say "son of man, who is from heaven".
Know know, TT, I'm not making statement about "no man" and "no one" because whatever the translating it still doesn't solve my 'problem'. I was merely pointing out that translators are very devided on it.
That said I edge to "no one" because that's the way my it is in my most trusted translations.
Biased. Yeah likely just as much as you are biased toward KJV.
I just don't trust Free Mason leaders. => King James was one.... :mshock:
Thanks for the link. I recently watched Gary on youtube talk about Zonder and how they owned NIV and then he explained how each company owned another company, until he mentioned Rupert Murdoch as the top owner.
Strangely I used to hate the kjv, I use to read it and think why am I reading this rust bucket, it's words were like knifes in my heart, even harsher than willies words :laughing7: But I guess Ive grown use to it and now that I have a better understanding of God's salvation, words like damned and hell are no longer as frightening, because I know what they mean, well mostly.
Quote from: thinktank on August 10, 2010, 10:45:28 PM
Strangely I used to hate the kjv, I use to read it and think why am I reading this rust bucket, it's words were like knifes in my heart, even harsher than willies words :laughing7:
He's one of the original translators :winkgrin:
QuoteBut I guess Ive grown use to it and now that I have a better understanding of God's salvation, words like damned and hell are no longer as frightening, because I know what they mean, well mostly.
So you have grown used to it because you no longer read it; but translate it to your ED believes.
Quote from: TT...until he mentioned Rupert Murdoch as the top owner
yikes. :mshock:
well, that would explain why some of the translations are subtly removing the divinity of Jesus...
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2010, 10:52:22 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 10, 2010, 10:45:28 PM
Strangely I used to hate the kjv, I use to read it and think why am I reading this rust bucket, it's words were like knifes in my heart, even harsher than willies words :laughing7:
He's one of the original translators :winkgrin:
QuoteBut I guess Ive grown use to it and now that I have a better understanding of God's salvation, words like damned and hell are no longer as frightening, because I know what they mean, well mostly.
So you have grown used to it because you no longer read it; but translate it to your ED believes.
He's one of the original translators :winkgrin:
I should have known.
So you have grown used to it because you no longer read it; but translate it to your ED believes.
By getting used to it I don't mean I don't read it. I mean it no longer has the same reaction of desperation as it once did, quick save them all, before they roast in hell etc.
I think my Ed beliefs have been misunderstood by most here.
To me I never said that one must believe or perish. What I have said is that if people should choose they can reject the living God and sacrifice their life in eternity. Just like a good man hates evil things an evil man hates good things and because God just so happens to be good, it means that evil will not be tolerated forever. So to some I have no idea who, or how many, or if any will choose to reject eternity with God, because perhaps to them an eternity with goodness is the equivalent of hell. They would not be able to lie, steal, cheat, thief, fornicate all the things that they might love so a peacefull death would be welcomed by anyone who loves evil more than good, hence ED. The fact that we are Christians proves to our hearts that we desire that which is good despite, doing that which is evil. Epislte of john
Says 'he that is of God cannot sin for he is God's. It also says 'if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves'
So the proof of whether we be accounted as rightoeus is not whether we sin, but whether we welcome God in our lives.
Quote from: thinktank on August 10, 2010, 11:15:38 PMSo you have grown used to it because you no longer read it; but translate it to your ED believes.By getting used to it I don't mean I don't read it. I mean it no longer has the same reaction of desperation as it once did, quick save them all, before they roast in hell etc.
Because when you read a word it automaitcly 'expands' in your thinktank to an understanding. I think that's how it works (James?)
Not only forr you. For everyone. At least that is how it feels for me.
QuoteI think my Ed beliefs have been misunderstood by most here.
To me I never said that one must believe or perish. What I have said is that if people should choose they can reject the living God and sacrifice their life in eternity. Just like a good man hates evil things an evil man hates good things and because God just so happens to be good, it means that evil will not be tolerated forever. So to some I have no idea who, or how many, or if any will choose to reject eternity with God, because perhaps to them an eternity with goodness is the equivalent of hell. They would not be able to lie, steal, cheat, thief, fornicate all the things that they might love so a peacefull death would be welcomed by anyone who loves evil more than good, hence ED.
So depending on your own choice, not that of God, you are or are not EDdyfried? :laughing7:
QuoteThe fact that we are Christians proves to our hearts that we desire that which is good despite, doing that which is evil. Epislte of john
Says 'he that is of God cannot sin for he is God's. It also says 'if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves'
So the proof of whether we be accounted as rightoeus is not whether we sin, but whether we welcome God in our lives.
I can't see it that way...
Sinless is impossible. But for me there is limit to it. If you pass that limit then you are no longer a Christian.
Someone that runs a marathon is called an athlete. Someone who runs half a marathon is an athlete.
A couch potato that runs to the fridge for another
six-pack of beer (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_a0-M0HIjsC4/SbakaggMR0I/AAAAAAAAAnY/dHSTuaIsWhY/s320/six_pack_beer_bellyy.jpg) is called an athlete???
:cloud9: If you know that we were one with Him, His glorified body from before the foundation of the world (which is why our spirit RETURNS to the One who sent it), and that we are told to come before the throne of grace boldly (ASCEND) making our petitions known (as coming before a king on a throne), then I want to paint a picture for you.
Ladder in thought, can also be as STEPS, there were a certain number of steps in the temple pattern, that coincide with a specific and particular number of psalms (songs of ASCENT). The priesthood went up these steps, ascending with prayers/petitions, and then descended with the "replies".
It can also be considered a means of getting from one realm to another, which is why HE is the "ladder", the mediator BETWEEN man and God.
Being seated with Him in heavenly places as the spiritual priesthood, grants us access to the heavenly King, as we ASCEND in the Spirit in prayer and worship, and then DESCEND with the "matter" decided, and as such a messenger with a message. Angels = message or messenger. Blessings....
I can't see it that way...
Sinless is impossible. But for me there is limit to it. If you pass that limit then you are no longer a Christian.
Someone that runs a marathon is called an athlete. Someone who runs half a marathon is an athlete.
A couch potato that runs to the fridge for another six-pack of beer is called an athlete???
whitewings
I agree in part. There are two messages the bible proclaims.
One is . He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
He that has beagn a work in you shall complete till the day of Christ
And
Gods spirit shall not allways strive with man
He gave them up to their own minds. Romans
So one is faith that if we fail we have advocate with the father, a high priest who knows our infimities, that we are but dust.
But also that God does indeed have a certain amount of toleration and one can by their own willfullness, lose themselves to sin.
On that note, I don't understand how US salvation or even Universal reconciliation, my view for that matter
can fit into the idea of when Jesus says, he that save his life shall lose it and he that lose his life shall save it.
What does it mean to die in ones sins?
Quote from: thinktank on August 11, 2010, 07:07:27 PM
One is . He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
He that has beagn a work in you shall complete till the day of Christ
Just like the marathon athlete. In the beginning he's tired after 100 yards. (No Christian). At the end (day of Christ) he's an athlete (Christian)
Being in the process of becoming an athlete/Christian doesn't automaticly mean you are already an athlete/Christian.
QuoteOn that note, I don't understand how US salvation or even Universal reconciliation, my view for that matter
can fit into the idea of when Jesus says, he that save his life shall lose it and he that lose his life shall save it.
If you are born again it means you must die first.
born again=save
die=lose it
:dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 11, 2010, 07:44:25 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 11, 2010, 07:07:27 PM
One is . He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
He that has beagn a work in you shall complete till the day of Christ
Just like the marathon athlete. In the beginning he's tired after 100 yards. (No Christian). At the end (day of Christ) he's an athlete (Christian)
Being in the process of becoming an athlete/Christian doesn't automaticly mean you are already an athlete/Christian.
QuoteOn that note, I don't understand how US salvation or even Universal reconciliation, my view for that matter
can fit into the idea of when Jesus says, he that save his life shall lose it and he that lose his life shall save it.
If you are born again it means you must die first.
born again=save
die=lose it
:dontknow:
We will all die to self. Some now in this lifetime, the ecclesia (called out ones), the rest later as they take the wide road to destruction [of self, and all that is not of God - "hurt" by the second death, as God creates the conditions to die to self, repent, confess Jesus as Lord when EVERY knee bows and EVERY tongue confesses].
Jesus said not marvel when He said we MUST be born again. Born again = spiritually renewed, born from above.
Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13.