why should this be so scary?

[Paul Hazelwood]

No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it.  So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior?  I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way.  Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers.  But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out.  These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it.  I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of.  ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit.  

My motive was to turn the focus upon Jesus.   You can believe what you like, I don't care.

Let me ask you something.  Let's say UR is completely false.  You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike.  Many buy into it.  Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy?  It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true?  If that is your stance so be it.  It's not my place to judge you.  What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.

UR is irrelevant.  Jesus is the Saviour of the world, if someone believes what I have said then they will believe that it is a trustworthy thing to Confess Jesus as Lord.   If what I believe is false, then it is false to say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it will be false to believe on the power of Jesus Christ.

Am I worried that I will answer to God in some negative capacity for thinking too highly of that power?  No, I am not concerned about it at all.   Should I be?

Only you can answer that for yourself.  But, I choose to listen to this verse.  Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." KJV

Sometimes I believe we try to serve a version of God that we can wrap our finite minds around.  I make every attempt not to try to fit God into my manmade box.  I want truth not just the truth I find acceptable.

And generally I know when someone is posturing for a point.  I am here to gain truth not really to debate.  I knew where you were going with your questioning before you went there.  I believe in the power of Jesus, my savior, my hope and it's only through faith in his sacrifice for our sins, his blood on the cross that we are saved.  How God chooses to apply the blood of Christ is something I am searching out.  While I know God wants to save all of mankind, I'm not convinced that he does so.  

Iron sharpening iron and I have little interest in anything other than that.

That is fine,  I was answering your question that you asked me.  Where I was headed was exactly what I said,  you can believe what you like.

If someone doesn't believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord then they shouldn't get so uptight when asked to explain why that is.  Indeed,  sharpen the iron or quit pretending to be someone your not here.

Paul I find your general tone unpleasant.  I have no use for useless debate with someone using debating ploys to make a point.  I'm not uptight about talking about Jesus.  I am uptight about someone questioning my belief in order to debate trap.  I have been around the block a time or two and I recognize it when I see it.

As in trying to be someone I'm not?  Not sure what you mean.  I believe I'm extremely transparent maybe to a fault.  I let people know exactly what I think, my opinions and I don't put on a righteous face for anyone.  I don't hide behind flowery poetic holy sounding language to make vague points.  I am a man in love with Christ and looking for answers.  With that said, I am human and I have edges that need smoothed out.  If I didn't I would have probably ignored your post entirely and moved about to posts that I felt were more productive.  You will have to excuse me if I ignore your future posts as I find debating with you to be fruitless.

You do not have to answer anything, You can say what you like about my tone, you are wrong, you simply find it conveneient to make those assertions because it excuses your emotions from answering questions.

But getting uptight because I dare question you about what you believe is your problem, not mine.

As far as your supposed transparency,  I'm not buying it, but you can say whatever you like.

[legoman]

Let me ask you something.  Let's say UR is completely false.  You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike.  Many buy into it.  Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy?  It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true?  If that is your stance so be it.  It's not my place to judge you.  What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.

This is a good question Shawn.  If I have to give account to God for spreading the good news of UR - so be it.  If it turns out to be wrong, I would realize I was deceived.  I'm sure I would also be very sorry and I would beg for forgiveness.  I would also be mad at all the scripture and studies that shows universal salvation is true.  I would ask God why He said it is His will to save all men but He didn't do it.

DECEPTION

People are deceived on various points and topics.  Perhaps we would agree the eternal hell believers are deceived.  People are deceived all over the world because there are a thousand different religions and they all say the other guy is wrong.  Logically, most or all of them are deceived.  Scripture even says the whole world will be deceived by Satan.

Here's the thing about deception:  it is not your fault if you are deceived!  How can you know if you are deceived?  You can't!  That is what deception is.  You only learn after the fact.  And then you still might be deceived on something else.

An example: Parents tell their children Santa Claus is going to bring them lots of presents if they are good.  Then on Christmas morning, sure enough they get lots of presents.  That child is deceived.  But its not his fault.  That's the nature of deception.

So why is it any different in "church".  People say you better not become deceived or you will go to hell (or annihilation or you'll "give account" or whatever).  That's ridiculous.  No one can stop themselves from being being deceived.  That is the nature of deception.  It deceives you and you don't even know it!

This in itself is major proof for universal salvation.  Why would God setup a system in which you are required to know or do or accept or believe the right thing, without making it exactly crystal clear what that right thing is, all the while telling us that the whole world is deceived?

Either God saves us all or God is a big meanie.

[shawn]

Let me ask you something.  Let's say UR is completely false.  You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike.  Many buy into it.  Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy?  It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true?  If that is your stance so be it.  It's not my place to judge you.  What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.

This is a good question Shawn.  If I have to give account to God for spreading the good news of UR - so be it.  If it turns out to be wrong, I would realize I was deceived.  I'm sure I would also be very sorry and I would beg for forgiveness.  I would also be mad at all the scripture and studies that shows universal salvation is true.  I would ask God why He said it is His will to save all men but He didn't do it.

DECEPTION

People are deceived on various points and topics.  Perhaps we would agree the eternal hell believers are deceived.  People are deceived all over the world because there are a thousand different religions and they all say the other guy is wrong.  Logically, most or all of them are deceived.  Scripture even says the whole world will be deceived by Satan.

Here's the thing about deception:  it is not your fault if you are deceived!  How can you know if you are deceived?  You can't!  That is what deception is.  You only learn after the fact.  And then you still might be deceived on something else.

An example: Parents tell their children Santa Claus is going to bring them lots of presents if they are good.  Then on Christmas morning, sure enough they get lots of presents.  That child is deceived.  But its not his fault.  That's the nature of deception.

So why is it any different in "church".  People say you better not become deceived or you will go to hell (or annihilation or you'll "give account" or whatever).  That's ridiculous.  No one can stop themselves from being being deceived.  That is the nature of deception.  It deceives you and you don't even know it!

This in itself is major proof for universal salvation.  Why would God setup a system in which you are required to know or do or accept or believe the right thing, without making it exactly crystal clear what that right thing is, all the while telling us that the whole world is deceived?

Either God saves us all or God is a big meanie.

I can agree with much of that.  But, I don't agree with the last statement.  If God chooses to save some and allow others to perish because of unforgiven sin then who am I to question that?  I see nothing in scripture that supports ET therefore I do not believe it.

I see many of your points about deception.  I'm sure I am deceived on some subjects as well.  I do wonder about our responsibility in the matter.  For me, and I can only speak for me I try to teach/instruct younger believers/nonbelievers on those things that I know in my heart to be true and can be verified by scripture.  Then there are things in my spirit that I believe but do not teach because the Bible is silent on those subjects.  There are also things that make sense and "feel right" that I also don't teach unless they have significant scriptural support.  I'm not saying UR is without scriptural support but for me at this point I see more support for ED.  But, I don't teach on either.  My official stance is "I don't know and I trust God".  Some might think that to be a cowardly stance.  But, I would rather take an agnostic stance than an incorrect stance that might mislead.

[jabcat]

I don't teach on either.  My official stance is "I don't know and I trust God".  Some might think that to be a cowardly stance.  But, I would rather take an agnostic stance than an incorrect stance that might mislead.

I agree.  I'm the same way on some topics, UR just isn't one of them.  God has worked clearly and directly in my life surrounding it, and until He does that for you - either on this side, or the other - then I agree with your stance.  It's hard to go wrong trusting God, asking Him for wisdom and understanding, and casting all our cares on Him. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

I don't teach on either.  My official stance is "I don't know and I trust God".  Some might think that to be a cowardly stance.  But, I would rather take an agnostic stance than an incorrect stance that might mislead.

It's hard to go wrong trusting God, asking Him for wisdom and understanding, and casting all our cares on Him. 

This is the point I was heading for which was prompted by the thread title if nothing else.

The label UR is something that 100 people can have a different perspective on.  If someone finds it scary to believe a label,  then I have no problems there because we shouldn't be trying to sell a label in the first place.

We shouldn't be asking if someone believes in UR or saying someone should believe a label called UR,  the question to present to someone who finds something scary along these lines is to ask a question that produces what the facts are from scripture.

So that is why I have asked people what they think about Jesus and to see if they believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord.   I believe the answer is YES which to me takes away any fear that would be associated with the understanding of Jesus power as Saviour of the world.

Of course people can think and react as they will, I find all this fascinating.

[jabcat]

I have asked people what they think about Jesus and to see if they believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord.   I believe the answer is YES which to me takes away any fear that would be associated with the understanding of Jesus power as Saviour of the world.

Agreed there's a point there...always, trust - He knows what He's doing.  

[shawn]

I have asked people what they think about Jesus and to see if they believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord.   I believe the answer is YES which to me takes away any fear that would be associated with the understanding of Jesus power as Saviour of the world.

Agreed there's a point there...always, trust - He knows what He's doing.  

It is always trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord.  The problem very few do this in this lifetime.  To extrapolate the blood of Christ to unbelievers after death is a leap I'm not ready to take.  But, I will continue to pray and study on the subject.  I pray for revelation.

[LS]

I don't teach on either.  My official stance is "I don't know and I trust God".  Some might think that to be a cowardly stance.  But, I would rather take an agnostic stance than an incorrect stance that might mislead.

I agree.  I'm the same way on some topics, UR just isn't one of them.  God has worked clearly and directly in my life surrounding it, and until He does that for you - either on this side, or the other - then I agree with your stance.  It's hard to go wrong trusting God, asking Him for wisdom and understanding, and casting all our cares on Him. 

:thumbsup: I whole-heartedly agree as well.

[reFORMer]

Orthopraxy Supercedes Orthodoxy


Matthew 22:34-39; Concordant Literal Translation...
34 Now the Pharisees, hearing that He muzzles the Sadducees, were gathered at the same place.
35 And one of them, learned in the law, trying Him, inquires,
36 "Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"
37 Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with you whole comprehension.
38 This is the great and foremost precept.
39 Yet the second is like it: 'You shall be loving your associate as yourself.'

Romans 13:8-10; Concordant Literal Translation...
8 To no one owe anything, except to be loving one another, for he who is loving another has fulfilled law.
9 For this: "You shall not commit adultery," "you shall not murder," "you shall not steal," "you shall not testify falsely," "you shall not covet," and if there is any other precept, it is summed up in this saying, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."
10 Love is not working evil to an associate. The complement, then, of law, is love.

The foremost and primary commandments are to love God and to love one another.  In fact, the whole law is summed up in the command to love one another.  Notice this is not so much a list of facts to learn.  It is not some doctrinaire.  This is relational behavior.  To be in the similitude of God, bearing His likeness, is have an identity of love overflowing, even unto our enemies.

Galatians 6:7-8; Concordant Literal Translation...
7 Be not deceived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also,
8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian.

The context makes clear that to be, "Not deceived" is a matter of behavior, that is, works of the flesh or harvest of the Spirit.  It's not so much of doctrine, or trusting in certain information obtained.  You think the way you do.

1 Corinthians 8:1-3, 6-7; Concordant Literal Translation...
1 ...We are aware that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, yet love builds up.
2 If anyone is presuming to know anything, he knew not as yet according as he must know.
3 Now if anyone is loving God, this one is known by Him.
6 ...for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
7 But not in all is there this knowledge.

The carnal mind wants elevated to where everything ends in it.  But, this rearranges the order of our being according to the death in Adam.  In the Divine schematic the  psyche is to be subservient to the spirit.  The law (which is of mental apprehension) cannot make the ends perfect.  "Through deeds of the law nothing is perfected."  This is because, "God is love."  Only the infusion of another higher life can raise us out of this Adamic nature in which everything dies.  "If there was a law (an instruction) that could give life, it would have been given."  To learn more and try harder can never raise us into a higher dimension in the manifestation of God.  No disciplined path of anything can bring the voice of God into us.  "Through works of law shall no flesh be justified ("declared righteous.)"

Understand, the period of time in which we transition into the Millennium, what happens in that period as the saints, God's Royal Priesthood, comes to reign in all the earth, is near at hand eschatology.  Then there are those things of eschatology more distant, teleology; like, "What is the final disposition of the wicked?" -- these are prophetic understandings for us to search out.  We look this way and that, to grasp what is Written, and find what the Lord will show us (though not everyone is deeply desirous of such knowledge.)  But, it is primarily how we treat one another that determines the anointing on our lives.  "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

[Quaesitor]

^ Formidable post!

[reFORMer]

Let me ask you something.  Let's say UR is completely false.  You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike.  Many buy into it.  Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy?  It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true?  If that is your stance so be it.  It's not my place to judge you.  What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.

This is a good question Shawn.  If I have to give account to God for spreading the good news of UR - so be it.  If it turns out to be wrong, I would realize I was deceived.  I'm sure I would also be very sorry and I would beg for forgiveness.  I would also be mad at all the scripture and studies that shows universal salvation is true.  I would ask God why He said it is His will to save all men but He didn't do it.

"I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure..." (Isaiah 46:9-10, AV)

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every 3956* creature 2937**." (Mark 16:15, AV)

* "every" = Strongs Greek #3956 pas
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 1243
AV — all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no +3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever +3739 +302 3, always +1223 3, daily +2250 2, any thing 2, no +3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26

** "creature" = Strong's #2937 ktisis
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 19
AV — creature 11, creation 6, building 1, ordinance 1

According to those who believe in ceaseless torture for ever, they call many, if not most, of humanity "damned."  Even they would agree that God already knows who is saved and who is damned.  So, if we obey Jesus' command to preach the GOOD NEWS to "every creature" God has made us to bear false witness to the damned for whom the truth is the WORST NEWS POSSIBLE.  He not only made us liars, but we make God to be a schizophrenic sadist, whispering into the ears of His permanent torture victims, "I love you.  I love you.  I love you."

If, according to the good news we told them, God forgave their sins, He would have no reason to continue torturing them.  If according to the good news we told them, God was satisfied with Christ paying the penalty for their sins, He would have no reason to continue torturing them.  So here we have a God Who never forgives and is never satisfied, whispering "I love you" to His torture victims!  As if that wasn't enough, He not only makes us liars, He will make us into His own image and likeness.  That means we will become Master Torturers also, that is, sadistic schizoids.

Can you make up your mind whether this bothers your conscience or not?  Maybe we should do as the elder apostle told the younger apostle (about 55 yrs old) Timothy...

1 Timothy 4:9-11; Concordant Literal Translation...
9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.
11 These things be charging and teaching.

[shawn]

Can you make up your mind whether this bothers your conscience or not?  Maybe we should do as the elder apostle told the younger apostle (about 55 yrs old) Timothy...

Are you speaking to me reformer?  I do not believe in ET.  Yes, my mind is made up about that.

[herefornow]

Herefornow I was moved by your story.  I consider what you described a form of spiritual abuse.  While I'm not convinced in UR at this point I don't believe God burns anyone forever.  This isn't anything new.  Men have twisted the words of God for as long as man has had the words of God.  Men have used Godly things for fleshly benefits.  Power, control, money etc and so on.  Why was Jesus so erked with the religious leaders of his day?  Why were they a den of vipers?  Do you see a pattern when we speak about current religious leaders?

So, you are at a crossroad.  You can believe we were formed out of colliding atoms in a vacuum (which to my scientific mind is ridiculous)...or you can believe in a Creator.  When I was at that point in my life I knew by looking around me and the complexity and the obvious design of life that we were created.  And I also realized that a creator cares for and uses his creations.  The rest has been God given revelation for me through prayer and study.  A book that might help you is an oldy but a goody...Signature of God by Grant Jefferies.  It helped me out a great deal.  Once your faith is once again restored in God and Christ you can begin the process of healing from spiritual abuse heaped upon you by the religious.  You can seperate the manmade garbage from truth about our Savior.  I am still on this road and will likely be til the day I leave this planet.  With that said, I understand...I really do and my heart goes out to you.  But, I'm convinced that if you search you shall find.  God is true his word.

Once my faith is restored.......

I hadn't thought of it as having been lost.  Something to ponder.  I guess I still don't trust that God is good, necessarily, or even believe he exists sometimes.  I'm in a hard place, but I am still learning, and I haven't given up.  Thanks for the post. :smile:

[shawn]

Herefornow I was moved by your story.  I consider what you described a form of spiritual abuse.  While I'm not convinced in UR at this point I don't believe God burns anyone forever.  This isn't anything new.  Men have twisted the words of God for as long as man has had the words of God.  Men have used Godly things for fleshly benefits.  Power, control, money etc and so on.  Why was Jesus so erked with the religious leaders of his day?  Why were they a den of vipers?  Do you see a pattern when we speak about current religious leaders?

So, you are at a crossroad.  You can believe we were formed out of colliding atoms in a vacuum (which to my scientific mind is ridiculous)...or you can believe in a Creator.  When I was at that point in my life I knew by looking around me and the complexity and the obvious design of life that we were created.  And I also realized that a creator cares for and uses his creations.  The rest has been God given revelation for me through prayer and study.  A book that might help you is an oldy but a goody...Signature of God by Grant Jefferies.  It helped me out a great deal.  Once your faith is once again restored in God and Christ you can begin the process of healing from spiritual abuse heaped upon you by the religious.  You can seperate the manmade garbage from truth about our Savior.  I am still on this road and will likely be til the day I leave this planet.  With that said, I understand...I really do and my heart goes out to you.  But, I'm convinced that if you search you shall find.  God is true his word.

Once my faith is restored.......

I hadn't thought of it as having been lost.  Something to ponder.  I guess I still don't trust that God is good, necessarily, or even believe he exists sometimes.  I'm in a hard place, but I am still learning, and I haven't given up.  Thanks for the post. :smile:

No problem.  This is what it's all about.  Believers supporting other believers...holding each other up when needed.  I really relate to those with doubt issues as I have been there and done that so they tend to tug on my heart.  The anxiety I felt when I questioned his existence and goodness was overwhelming.  But, I'm not sure how any believer escapes that stage.  Anyone who has been taught ET and tries to reconcil that to God who loves agape is going to have some cognitive dissonance.  It should trouble their soul greatly.  I have faith that you are merely on that path and God will reveal his goodness to you.  He did so to me through great mercy.  If I told you my life story you would know how I relate to Paul when I say I am right with the greatest of sinners.  Yet, God so many times showed me magnificant and undeniable mercy to bring me to a place of faith.  I do not doubt his goodness or his agape love for man.

[LS]

If I told you my life story you would know how I relate to Paul when I say I am right with the greatest of sinners.  Yet, God so many times showed me magnificant and undeniable mercy to bring me to a place of faith.  I do not doubt his goodness or his agape love for man.

I would like to hear your story someday, if you're ever ready.  I have a sense that through your trials, you have utterly been stripped down, and He is rebuilding you again.  You seem to me to now be on a very solid foundation, and all the other "stuff" is coming at His pace.  I could be wildly off-target, but that's the feeling I've had reading your posts.  :)  

This is what it's all about.  Believers supporting other believers...holding each other up when needed.  

Amen.

[shawn]

If I told you my life story you would know how I relate to Paul when I say I am right with the greatest of sinners.  Yet, God so many times showed me magnificant and undeniable mercy to bring me to a place of faith.  I do not doubt his goodness or his agape love for man.

I would like to hear your story someday, if you're ever ready.  I have a sense that through your trials, you have utterly been stripped down, and He is rebuilding you again.  You seem to me to now be on a very solid foundation, and all the other "stuff" is coming at His pace.  I could be wildly off-target, but that's the feeling I've had reading your posts.  :)  

This is what it's all about.  Believers supporting other believers...holding each other up when needed.  

Amen.

No, you are right on target.  I have been broken, stripped and laid bare before him.  I have been utterly humbled and God has used pain as my teacher.  And you are very right about the fact that God is rebuilding me from the ground up.  I won't hijack this thread with my story but I am always glad to share it to those it might encourage.  I will put it together soon in the testimony section.

[legoman]

Let me ask you something.  Let's say UR is completely false.  You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike.  Many buy into it.  Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy?  It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true?  If that is your stance so be it.  It's not my place to judge you.  What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.

This is a good question Shawn.  If I have to give account to God for spreading the good news of UR - so be it.  If it turns out to be wrong, I would realize I was deceived.  I'm sure I would also be very sorry and I would beg for forgiveness.  I would also be mad at all the scripture and studies that shows universal salvation is true.  I would ask God why He said it is His will to save all men but He didn't do it.

DECEPTION

People are deceived on various points and topics.  Perhaps we would agree the eternal hell believers are deceived.  People are deceived all over the world because there are a thousand different religions and they all say the other guy is wrong.  Logically, most or all of them are deceived.  Scripture even says the whole world will be deceived by Satan.

Here's the thing about deception:  it is not your fault if you are deceived!  How can you know if you are deceived?  You can't!  That is what deception is.  You only learn after the fact.  And then you still might be deceived on something else.

An example: Parents tell their children Santa Claus is going to bring them lots of presents if they are good.  Then on Christmas morning, sure enough they get lots of presents.  That child is deceived.  But its not his fault.  That's the nature of deception.

So why is it any different in "church".  People say you better not become deceived or you will go to hell (or annihilation or you'll "give account" or whatever).  That's ridiculous.  No one can stop themselves from being being deceived.  That is the nature of deception.  It deceives you and you don't even know it!

This in itself is major proof for universal salvation.  Why would God setup a system in which you are required to know or do or accept or believe the right thing, without making it exactly crystal clear what that right thing is, all the while telling us that the whole world is deceived?

Either God saves us all or God is a big meanie.

I can agree with much of that.  But, I don't agree with the last statement.  If God chooses to save some and allow others to perish because of unforgiven sin then who am I to question that?  I see nothing in scripture that supports ET therefore I do not believe it.

I see many of your points about deception.  I'm sure I am deceived on some subjects as well.  I do wonder about our responsibility in the matter.  For me, and I can only speak for me I try to teach/instruct younger believers/nonbelievers on those things that I know in my heart to be true and can be verified by scripture.  Then there are things in my spirit that I believe but do not teach because the Bible is silent on those subjects.  There are also things that make sense and "feel right" that I also don't teach unless they have significant scriptural support.  I'm not saying UR is without scriptural support but for me at this point I see more support for ED.  But, I don't teach on either.  My official stance is "I don't know and I trust God".  Some might think that to be a cowardly stance.  But, I would rather take an agnostic stance than an incorrect stance that might mislead.

Hi Shawn,

Yeah I think my last point "God either saves us all or is a big meanie" is more directed at the eternal torment crowd (which I realize you don't believe in ET).  But even annihilation, while more merciful, doesn't fit.  If annihilation is true, then God, the great creator of all, purposely created some of us to be thrown away forever.  God specifically tells us that death has no victory and death is destroyed - so how can some be dead forever (annihilated)?

Back on the deception point for a moment - when we are deceived we don't know it - but there is something that will always cut through the deception - the truth.  Of course it is hard to determine the truth.  But it can be determined due to the laws of logic, the laws of reason, and the laws of non-contradiction.  That is the advantage of the truth.

Take a benign example: someone is teaching people that 2+2=5.  If you don't ever think about it or question that teaching, you might believe that.  But after working with the concept for a while, you might get some questions in the back of your mind that don't make sense. If you question 2+2=5 at all, you quickly realize that it is false (and you have been deceived if that is what you believed).

Consider the child who learns of Santa Claus.  It all sounds great when you are young and unquestioning.  But as you get older you start to see some problems.  How does Santa Clause get all those presents on his sleigh?  How does Santa Clause fly around to ALL the houses of the world in one night?  Why does Santa look different at all the shopping malls we go to? etc, etc.  And to perpetuate the myth, the parents have to keep coming up with even more extraordinary and contradictory claims to keep the deception going.  Eventually the deception crumbles under its own weight.

That is what the church is doing and that is why there is a thousand different beliefs on what hell is.  It is all contradictory nonsense.

As I said with annihilation, it too contradicts the very purpose that Christ came for: He came to destroy death, make all righteous and all alive.  It also presupposes that God is unable to convert some people, when we have a very plain biblical example of God converting Saul (the self-proclaimed "chief of sinners") into the great apostle Paul.

Now if God asks me to give account for what I have spoken on these forums (if you want to call this "teaching") I know I can simply say that I was spreading the truth as I know it with the purpose to help others.  It is about intent.

[WhiteWings]

God specifically tells us that death has no victory and death is destroyed - so how can some be dead forever (annihilated)?

Dead gets destroyed. Loses it's sting.
I can also read it as: Death won't kill anymore. Dead is defeated. No more victories. But those already dead stay dead.

[legoman]

God specifically tells us that death has no victory and death is destroyed - so how can some be dead forever (annihilated)?

Dead gets destroyed. Loses it's sting.
I can also read it as: Death won't kill anymore. Dead is defeated. No more victories. But those already dead stay dead.

But then I would say: if some are still dead, death is still in existence therefore death has not been destroyed.  This is in contradiction with what Jesus stated He came to do.

[WhiteWings]

True.

[legoman]

To me, believing eternal torment or annihilation is true is the same as believing Santa Claus exists or 2+2=5. 

It just doesn't add up.

[LS]

But even annihilation, while more merciful, doesn't fit.  If annihilation is true, then God, the great creator of all, purposely created some of us to be thrown away forever.

I know you directed this to Shawn, but I am a firm believer in eternal destruction, so I'd like to give my response to your question, if I may.

I don't think God purposely created any of us to be "thrown away forever." However, I believe we were created in His image able to freely choose good or evil, life or death. 

God specifically tells us that death has no victory and death is destroyed - so how can some be dead forever (annihilated)?

I think that's an odd way of looking at death, as if it is an ongoing action. Dying is an action, and the act of dying doesn't go on forever. But once the act of dying is completed (death) one would cease to exist.  It is not a state of "being;" something that does not exist has no "state."   

When Jesus destroys death, imho that simply means from that point on, "death" will never again claim a living being.

Those who chose death in this life, "shall be as though they had not been (Obadiah 1:16); will "be no more" (Psalms 104:35); will "be destroyed—without remedy." (Proverbs 6:15); will be torn down, "never to be rebuilt." (Psalm 28:5).

:2c:

[CHB]

So if annihilation is true why hasn't that punishment been paid for? Christ didn't stay dead, so, he didn't pay for annihilation.

Since the wages of sin is DEATH and Christ paid the complete penalty for sins when he died, how could annihilation be true?

What is the purpose of annihilation? Is it to pay for sins? How can that be if Christ paid for our sins?

CHB

[WhiteWings]

I know you directed this to Shawn, but I am a firm believer in eternal destruction, so I'd like to give my response to your question, if I may.

I don't think God purposely created any of us to be "thrown away forever." However, I believe we were created in His image able to freely choose good or evil, life or death.

LS,
You just perfectly described a  throw-away-creation.

a] God decides He wants to create people.
b] He draws up a blueprint for creation.
c] He gazes in His crystal ball and sees a future filled with eternal destruction.
d] He creates us anyway.

Because of His foreknowledge He purposely created us for destruction.
He could have chosen another design that doesn't lead to ED, or no creation at all.
:2c:

[thinktank]

I know you directed this to Shawn, but I am a firm believer in eternal destruction, so I'd like to give my response to your question, if I may.

I don't think God purposely created any of us to be "thrown away forever." However, I believe we were created in His image able to freely choose good or evil, life or death.

LS,
You just perfectly described a  throw-away-creation.

a] God decides He wants to create people.
b] He draws up a blueprint for creation.
c] He gazes in His crystal ball and sees a future filled with eternal destruction.
d] He creates us anyway.

Because of His foreknowledge He purposely created us for destruction.
He could have chosen another design that doesn't lead to ED, or no creation at all.
:2c:

One can argue that, he was not willing than any perish but that all come to repentance.

Some creation would have enjoyed their life on earth being evil, doing evil, so they would have enjoyed some innings.

But those who want to live forever join christ in his new kingdom.