Question on 2nd coming

[thinktank]

You guys seem to flip flop from one idea to another, you argue that he won't come in the clouds then you say that he is going to come. Are you trying to be clever, by arguing against us and then saying, that it will happen or have you have had revelation since your last posts  :dontknow:

[Beloved Servant]

Who are the clouds?

[Doug]

Who are the clouds?

Proverbs 25:14
Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

There are various types of clouds; cumulus, stratus, cirrus, nimbus, and their combinations.

Rain clouds are called "nimbus."

Doug

[peacemaker]

You guys seem to flip flop from one idea to another, you argue that he won't come in the clouds then you say that he is going to come. Are you trying to be clever, by arguing against us and then saying, that it will happen or have you have had revelation since your last posts  :dontknow:

           No Flip Flops
(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1402/1402163an5yjq7sxr.gif)
    Footprints in the Sand

[Beloved Servant]

Hebrews 12:

1 Surely, in consequence, then, we also, having so vast a cloud of witnesses encompassing us, putting off every impediment and the popular sin, may be racing with endurance the contest lying before us,
2 looking off to the Inaugurator and Perfecter of faith, Jesus, Who, for the joy lying before Him, endures a cross, despising the shame, besides is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Beloved Servant]

One of the rabbinical names for the Messiah, based on Daniel 7:13-14, was "The Cloud Man."
Daniel writes:
"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like unto the Son of man CAME WITH THE CLOUDS of heaven..."
Christ, of course, is plainly identified as the "One who comes with the clouds" in the Salutation of Rev. 1:7:
"Behold, He COMETH WITH CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him..."
Furthermore, when our Lord was adjured by the High Priest to tell whether He was the Messiah or not, Jesus answered with the old equivalent of "Yes!"
Then He said, "Ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Mk. 14:62).

This identification was more than His enemies could bear. And so we read,
"Then the High Priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witness? Ye have heard the blasphemy: What think ye? And they all condemned Him to be guilty of death" (Mk. 14:63-64).
Why should the High Priest and those assembled, think it such BLASPHEMY for Jesus to say not only that they would see Him sitting on the right hand of Power, but also that they would see Him COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN?
The truth is, they knew that our Lord was claiming to be the "Son of the Blessed (God)," the one who would come in the CLOUD OF GLORY which had once filled the temple at Jerusalem!
Furthermore, they clearly understood that the "clouds" upon which Messiah would come were not the fleecy white clouds which scud across a summer sky, but in all reality they would be the blazing Shekinah Cloud which from times of old had veiled the Divine Presence.
How well the learned rabbis of Israel understood the true implication of Jesus' words!


www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Looking/Looking22.htm

[micah7:9]

 :grin:WELL SAID!  :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

This is a favorite subject of mine and as I've gone through this thread, it causes me to want to comment on almost all the posts that by the time I get to the end of them, I don't know where to start.

For me . . ."if" the angels were talking about a physical return of Jesus when they stated "just as you saw him go . . ." then they had to have been lying to those to whom they were speaking to.  The one thing about the subtilty of the carnal mind it that it has a sneaky way of disregarding the generation hearing the words and making everything about "me" and "my" generation.  In all the studies on endtime events, so often the church seems to consistantly be ignoring the fact that these words being spoken were actually spoken to literal people listening and applying the words to themselves and not a generation 2000 years later.  And the angels were talking to "them" and not us as well.

So how did they see him go?  Was he flesh?  Not hardly.  You don't see people of our flesh passing through walls, appearing out of thin air and disappearing into thin air.  Jesus had already redeemed the flesh back to the father, why do we continue to try to bring him back to the flesh?  Carnality also causes us to want to cater to the flesh . . .the flesh has been dealt with, it is finished.  We still go through the "process" of redemption in our flesh because we are confined to the limits of time and space.  But the redemption for flesh has already been completed in Spirit.

So what was the state that he was in that they saw him go?  I believe it wasn't physical state, I beleive it was "resurrected" state.  And I beleive he "did" return to them in that same state and it started 10 days later when a tithe of Israel as well as the revealing and establishing of God's government (10, number for law times 12, number of God's government equals 120.  120 is the tithe of 12,000 Revelation speaks of from each tribe, the Holy Spirit is just a tithe of the fulness of God in us)  "That's" who has returned to me inwardly, a resurrected Christ that the religious can't seem to accept or identify.  

That's why they didn't recognize him after he resurrected . . .he was no longer in a fleshly state.  He was in a resurrected one.  

[Doug]

... 
120 is the tithe of 12,000 Revelation speaks of from each tribe, the Holy Spirit is just a tithe of the fulness of God in us)  

I think a tenth of 12,000 is 1,200, not 120.  :Sparkletooth:

Doug

[Nathan]

Yikes . . .misprint there . . .I do believe you may be right.  120 is one percent not ten.  I'll have to keep that in mind because it obviously changes that part of things.  Doesn't change the other side though so I'll hang on to that.

[Doug]

To me it means he will come back and every eye will see him. This is the hope that he will come back to resurect the dead. This is not about salvation, but about God coming back, to harvest his people, the living and the dead, while also, cleansing the earth from sin, by destroying all the wicked in a place called armargeddon. So to me christ wants vengeance on his enemies, he has been long patient and has the right to execute vengeance upon the wicked during armageddon. I doubt no saint will feel sorry for them , in fact God tells the saints to rejoice in heaven for taking vengeance on mystery babylon, not the same as armageddon but shows that God does not expect us to feel sorry for our enemies.

The scripture says:

Exodus 23:4
If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.   
   
And this:   
   
Proverbs 25:21
If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:   

Which is quoted by Paul:

Romans 12:20
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.   

Jesus said,

Luke 6:35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

You might think this is pointless, but think, if God wants to save all mankind he must show them that he is no pushover, the people during the battle of armageddon have the arrogance of trying to fight the almighty, so I believe armageddon is about proving to the universe, Gods might in dealing with his enemies.


John 20:17

How he does this may be what the prophecy of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 is all about. This prophecy is interpreted by John, in Revelation 20:8-9, as an assault upon the saints. The hordes of Gog and Magog come from all parts of the earth, against the saints, which is what "the camp of the saints" signifies. It is also "the beloved city." The saints are located in all parts of the earth, but they are a holy city.

Hebrews 12:22-23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

Also, Ezekiel said the invading hordes of Gog and Magog will come "like a cloud" that covers the land, "thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land." [Ezekiel 38:9] Also in vs. 16:

And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

The invaders of this great army cause God's fury to come up in his face, vs. 18. And it is their judgment that causes the heathen to know God. These invaders want money, and seek to "take a spoil."

Ezekiel 38:13
...Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

They come against the mountains of Israel, [vs. 8] and against the prophets of Israel [vs. 17].

Mountains of Israel are prominent parts of the promised land, so they represent the revelations of God, and the promises, and prophecies in scripture. Ezekiel's prophecy may apply to many organizations and individuals who offer their flawed interpretations of prophecy for sale, and seek to take people captive by means of their interpretations. God's response to them includes "great hailstones" and "an overflowing rain."

Ezekiel 38:22
And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

It is spiritual warfare, about interpretation of prophecy. How else could the invaders come against "the prophets of Israel," such as Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Joel, Zechariah, etc? The invaders are "like a cloud covering the land," but they are "clouds and wind without rain," and they boast of a false gift.

Proverbs 25:14
Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

They are hailed on, with "great hailstones" which likely represents the strong reproof contained in scripture against them. And, God calls for a sword against the invaders.

Ezekiel 38:21
And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

IMO, this is fulfilled when the supporters of preterism and dispensationalism battle each other!

Doug

[peacemaker]

Clouds contain air and water, representing the Soul and Spirit.

It is not for you to know the times or periods that the FATHER has set by his own authority:

But YOU will receive power when the SPIRIT has come upon YOU; and YOU will be my witnesses
in Jerusalem, in all Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

The SPIRIT created the world and all things in it; and does not dwell in temples made with hands.
So, why do you stand looking eastward, up towards the sky, waiting for the Sun to return?

The Kingdom of God (SPIRIT) IS WITHIN YOU.

peacemaker

[thinktank]

Clouds contain air and water, representing the Soul and Spirit.

It is not for you to know the times or periods that the FATHER has set by his own authority:

But YOU will receive power when the SPIRIT has come upon YOU; and YOU will be my witnesses
in Jerusalem, in all Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

The SPIRIT created the world and all things in it; and does not dwell in temples made with hands.
So, why do you stand looking eastward, up towards the sky, waiting for the Sun to return?

The Kingdom of God (SPIRIT) IS WITHIN YOU.

peacemaker

Because Jesus promised he would return, the spirit that is with us right now is "another", Jesus said I will send you another the "comforter". I will not leave you comfortless I'll send you another
Do not be sad but rejoice for I go unto the father. It is difficult to receive this truth though, if one is against the idea of holy ghost, it depends if one is open to that truth.

[Doug]

Clouds contain air and water, representing the Soul and Spirit.

It is not for you to know the times or periods that the FATHER has set by his own authority:

But YOU will receive power when the SPIRIT has come upon YOU; and YOU will be my witnesses
in Jerusalem, in all Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

The SPIRIT created the world and all things in it; and does not dwell in temples made with hands.
So, why do you stand looking eastward, up towards the sky, waiting for the Sun to return?

The Kingdom of God (SPIRIT) IS WITHIN YOU.

peacemaker

Because Jesus promised he would return, the spirit that is with us right now is "another", Jesus said I will send you another the "comforter". I will not leave you comfortless I'll send you another

You must be reading from another Bible:

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Do not be sad but rejoice for I go unto the father. It is difficult to receive this truth though, if one is against the idea of holy ghost, it depends if one is open to that truth.

What truth?

Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Doug

[peacemaker]

Clouds contain air and water, representing the Soul and Spirit.

It is not for you to know the times or periods that the FATHER has set by his own authority:

But YOU will receive power when the SPIRIT has come upon YOU; and YOU will be my witnesses
in Jerusalem, in all Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

The SPIRIT created the world and all things in it; and does not dwell in temples made with hands.
So, why do you stand looking eastward, up towards the sky, waiting for the Sun to return?

The Kingdom of God (SPIRIT) IS WITHIN YOU.

Because Jesus promised he would return, the spirit that is with us right now is "another", Jesus said I will send you another the "comforter". I will not leave you comfortless I'll send you another
Do not be sad but rejoice for I go unto the father. It is difficult to receive this truth though, if one is against the idea of holy ghost, it depends if one is open to that truth.

Syncretism?

Because it is written, "Be ye holy, for I AM HOLY."
And we know there is only one SPIRIT and Father of ALL.

peacemaker

[jabcat]

John 14 from the Christian Bible (very literal);

16.  Now I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Encourager, so that It shall continually be with you even to the Last Age;  17.  Even the Spirit of Truth that the world can't get, because it isn't gazing at It or knowing It.  You are going to know It, because It is going to stay with you, and will be in you.  18.  I won't leave you orphaned;  I'm going to come to you..  19.  A little while still and the world isn't going to gaze at Me any longer, yet you are going to gaze at Me;  because I'm going to live, you too will live [in the Last Age].  20.  On that day you will know that I am in union My Father, and you are in union with Me, and I am in union with you.

[Beloved Servant]

Jab,
Is the Christian Bible online?

[jabcat]

Hi Dave.  No, it's not.  The translators and organization are a self-described "simple people", so their means of getting their translation out is s/w primitive.  As I don't have a scanner, any time I post something from it I have to type it out word-for-word (oh, the pity   :faint: LOL, we've gotten spoiled, haven't we?).

I've thought several times of contacting them and offering help/trying to garner support for them, etc., but have yet to do so.

[Beloved Servant]

Imagine typing out the whole Bible!


You better get started — it's getting cloudy — a storm is coming!

[jabcat]

LOL...I'll need some help.

[marie glen]

I can't  help but believe that Jesus brings Utopia with Him..

"And immediately after, the tribulation, of those days... shall they see the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds.. and He will send forth His angels to gather His elect from the four corners (winds, directions) of the earth..."

"..with a mighty shout and the trumpet blast.."

"at the last trumpet.. those asleep in the grave will rise first then we which are alive and remain will be caught up into the air to meet Him" at His coming...

"His feet will touch down upon the mount of Olives"

"you will see* Him come just as you have seen* Him go" Acts 1;19(?)

Marsha said "I know you will raise him up on the last day"

"If anyone believe in me I will raise him on the last day"

Paul wrote "we will not precede those who are dead in Christ, but the dead will rise first then we which are alive and remain will meet Him in the air.."

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you will not see me again until you say blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD"...

Grat topic!! :Sparkletooth:

[Molly]

John 14 from the Christian Bible (very literal);

16.  Now I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Encourager, so that It shall continually be with you even to the Last Age;  17.  Even the Spirit of Truth that the world can't get, because it isn't gazing at It or knowing It.  You are going to know It, because It is going to stay with you, and will be in you.  18.  I won't leave you orphaned;  I'm going to come to you..  19.  A little while still and the world isn't going to gaze at Me any longer, yet you are going to gaze at Me;  because I'm going to live, you too will live [in the Last Age].  20.  On that day you will know that I am in union My Father, and you are in union with Me, and I am in union with you.

This is so beautiful.  "I won't leave you orphaned"


...the world isn't going to gaze at Me any longer, yet you are going to gaze at Me;



For I know that my Redeemer liveth...

...and, that in my flesh, I shall see God.

[santikos]

this is a very good topic, sorry i dont have much to contribute. i always wondered about the coming of christ. i always wondered why would he need a cloud? and i always thought that it cannot be physical because if he comes on USA side of the world how would our chinese brothers in china see him? so not it seems i have some learning to do. i read in awe as to how deep you guys/gals have been blessed with so much understanding.

[thinktank]

A cloud of witnesses

His saints?

[WhiteWings]

Yeah, cloud and sea  :mshock: