Tentmaker Forum

I know there have been many posts on the 2nd coming but I have one for those of you that believe that Christ will not come back until all of His enemies have been layed at His feet.

Matthew 24:30: At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

Doesn't this contradict that teaching? The nations of the earth will mourn at His coming.

Thx.

I always thought they were mourning for themselves; their Godless lives.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 21, 2010, 11:09:04 PM

I always thought they were mourning for themselves; their Godless lives.

I don't doubt that, they probably are. But if its suppose to be a utopia before Christ can come back, then this doesn't make much sense.

Quote from: Zero7 on July 21, 2010, 10:52:08 PM
I know there have been many posts on the 2nd coming but I have one for those of you that believe that Christ will not come back until all of His enemies have been layed at His feet.

Matthew 24:30: At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

Doesn't this contradict that teaching? The nations of the earth will mourn at His coming.

Thx.

I have seen art depicting Jesus coming in clouds, but I think perhaps the artists may have missed the point of what Jesus was talking about here, as there is a symbolic meaning connected with clouds in scripture. Isaiah compared God's word to rain, and to snow, which are products of clouds.
   
Isaiah 55:6-11
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
   
The land, mountains, valleys, rivers, seas, trees, wind, rain, hail, day, night, sun, stars, all have symbolic spiritual meanings, in various prophecies. The above scripture quote does not mention clouds, but rain implies clouds.

Twice in Ezekiel 38, the invading hordes of Gog and Magog are described as a "cloud covering the land."

Ezekiel 38:9
Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

Ezekiel 38:16
And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

In the NT, the false teachers are described as "clouds that are carried with a tempest," in 2 Peter 2:17, and "clouds without water, carried about of winds," in Jude 1:12.

There are dark clouds, and bright ones, that bring showers. Peter said of the false teachers: "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." Joel said the day of the Lord is "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness." [Joel 2:2] Bright clouds are mentioned by Zechariah:

Zechariah 10:1
Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.

Daniel spoke of Jesus coming in the clouds.

Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The saints seem to be identified with the clouds, in a prophecy of Isaiah:

Isaiah 60:8
Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

Here is another scripture that speaks of Jesus coming with clouds:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

If we compare the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:30 to these scriptures, it is not hard to understand what he meant by clouds; they represent the saints. This is also seen in Hebrews, after the chapter listing the heroes of faith.

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

The great confusion among Bible teachers is like dark clouds, gloominess; but the bright clouds are those who also bring welcome rain that waters the ground and helps produce the kind of fruit that honors God. In the prophecy about the two witnesses there is also a reference to clouds.

Revelation 11:11-12
And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The interpretation, I think, is that the clouds are the saints, and the two witnesses are the Spirit, and the scriptures, which are revived, after being killed by the beast, and the church responds to it, and the saints accept the good things that Christ has prepared for them. It happens in the sight of their enemies: David wrote,

Psalm 23:5
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Doug

I must be out of the loop, but I cannot find the "second coming" in my Bible.

Mat 24:30  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; (YLT)
Appear G5316 phainō to lighten (shine),  that is, show

Sign G4592 sēmeion  an indication,  sign, token

The smiting of the breast seems more of an affrimation, or if it is a mourning or lament it maybe the realization of the time and the finality is now. But thats just my  :2c:

Quote from: micah7:9 on July 22, 2010, 08:44:43 PM
I must be out of the loop, but I cannot find the "second coming" in my Bible.

Mat 24:30  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; (YLT)
Appear G5316 phainō to lighten (shine),  that is, show

Sign G4592 sēmeion  an indication,  sign, token

The smiting of the breast seems more of an affrimation, or if it is a mourning or lament it maybe the realization of the time and the finality is now. But thats just my  :2c:

Jesus told the high priest who presided at his trial, that he would see him "coming in the clouds of heaven."

Mark 14:61-63
57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
59 But neither so did their witness agree together.
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

This must refer to events in the apostolic era. The high priest is mentioned in Acts, which says he was "filled with indignation" about the multitudes who turned to Christ, and about the miracles and signs that were done by the apostles.

Acts 5:14-18
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.

The sign of Jesus "coming in the clouds of heaven" must be a metaphor representing the work of the Holy Spirit through his saints, revealing Christ's power and authority over all.

Doug

To me it means he will come back and every eye will see him. This is the hope that he will come back to resurect the dead. This is not about salvation, but about God coming back, to harvest his people, the living and the dead, while also, cleansing the earth from sin, by destroying all the wicked in a place called armargeddon. So to me christ wants vengeance on his enemies, he has been long patient and has the right to execute vengeance upon the wicked during armageddon. I doubt no saint will feel sorry for them , in fact God tells the saints to rejoice in heaven for taking vengeance on mystery babylon, not the same as armageddon but shows that God does not expect us to feel sorry for our enemies. You might think this is pointless, but think, if God wants to save all mankind he must show them that he is no pushover, the people during the battle of armageddon have the arrogance of trying to fight the almighty, so I believe armageddon is about proving to the universe, Gods might in dealing with his enemies.


John 20:17

micah, just because you can't find the 'second coming' in the bible doesn't mean it isn't so.

Acts 1:11 -> "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

I guess I'll always believe in a physical, coming in the physical clouds, trumpet blast, every eye shall see Him coming back.

If I'm wrong, not that concerned, we'll all see Him some day one way or the other.

Parousia

I actually woke up the other morning with this word on my lips.
Not knowing how to spell it, I wrote it down phonetically and then forgot about it.
Because of this thread I just Googled "second coming of Jesus," and this word appeared right at the top in the Wiki hit.
God is truly amazing.

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, THERE AM I IN THE MIDST OF THEM,"

"And, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even unto the end of the age."

The PAROUSIA is THE PRESENCE OF HIS GLORY and THE GLORY OF HIS PRESENCE.

Joh 16:7  `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;

Here are a few more scriptures that we could consider, that may be related to the idea of Christ coming in the clouds. After the flood, God established a covenant with man, which has to do with clouds:

Genesis 9:12-14
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

In the wilderness, God spoke to Moses from a cloud:

Exodus 19:9
And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

The cloud was upon the tabernacle through all the journeys of the people of Israel, until they reached the promised land.

Exodus 40:38
For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.

David said God is hidden by clouds, and darkness:

Psalm 18:11
He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

In the wilderness, the cloud that hid God from the view of the people was a covering:

Psalm 105:38-40
38 Egypt was glad when they departed: for the fear of them fell upon them.
39 He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night.
40 The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven.

The "daughter of Zion" is also covered in a cloud:

Lamentations 2:1
How hath the LORD covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!

This could also apply to the church, which is hard to identify, as the saints are scattered in tens of thousands of denominations.

Ezekiel compared Christ to a rainbow, in a rain cloud:

Ezekiel 1:28
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

The clouds in the day of the lord are connected with a great army in Joel's prophecy. It is unique, and a great, strong people.

Joel 2:2
A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

This is very similar to the description that Zephaniah gave of the day of the Lord:

Zephaniah 1:15
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness.

I suggest the promise of Christ "coming in the clouds" is connected with the covenant that God made with man after the flood, and with the rainbow, which in Ezekiel's prophecy, represents God. It is also connected with the prophecy of Malachi about Elijah, who represents the holy Spirit.

Malachi 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Doug

Beloved Servant, that is truly amazing. Got goose bumps reading that. Praise His name.

Doug and Micah,

I would love to hear your commentary on the verse I posted. They were told Jesus would come back in the exact manner of His ascension. Not much room for interpretation there, at least to me.
Thx.

Zero7

Act 1:11

(ASV)  who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

(YLT)  who also said, `Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.'


The PAROUSIA is THE PRESENCE OF HIS GLORY and THE GLORY OF HIS PRESENCE (Beloved Servant)

Joh 6:60  many, therefore, of his disciples having heard, said, `This word is hard; who is able to hear it?'
Joh 6:61  And Jesus having known in himself that his disciples are murmuring about this, said to them, `Doth this stumble you?
Joh 6:62  if then ye may behold the Son of Man going up where he was before?
Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
Joh 6:64  but there are certain of you who do not believe;' for Jesus had known from the beginning who they are who are not believing, and who is he who will deliver him up,
Joh 6:65  and he said, `Because of this I have said to you--No one is able to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father.'

Quote from: micah7:9 on July 23, 2010, 04:56:42 PM
Zero7

Act 1:11

(ASV)  who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

(YLT)  who also said, `Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.'


The PAROUSIA is THE PRESENCE OF HIS GLORY and THE GLORY OF HIS PRESENCE (Beloved Servant)

In what manner was it?

Acts 1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Their view of the Lord was obscured by a cloud. This is how many scriptures say he comes; in a cloud. And clouds are associated with hiding and obscuring things from our sight. And also with false teachers, and the "cloud of witnesses" in Heb. 12:1, and the saints too.

Jesus said to the Jews,   

Matthew 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

He revealed himself to them, and to the high priest, as he said, but through his disciples, who were like bright "clouds" which dispensed the "rain" of the Gospel, and of God's word, in Jerusalem, and the whole world. [Isa. 55:10-12]

If they did not recognize the apostles as saints who came in the name of the Lord, they would not see him.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Doug

Yes

Hmmm...interesting. I understand where your going with this, I think. So please forgive my denseness....are you of the opinion there will NOT be a physical returning of Christ then or that He must return in each and everyone of us before He does?

Use sock puppets please, I might get it then.  :icon_joker:

He is coming, has been coming, and will come in those who are looking for Him.

Quote from: micah7:9 on July 23, 2010, 09:35:00 PM
He is coming, has been coming, and will come in those who are looking for Him.

:cloud9: AMEN  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Zero7 on July 23, 2010, 08:41:58 PM
Hmmm...interesting. I understand where your going with this, I think. So please forgive my denseness....are you of the opinion there will NOT be a physical returning of Christ then or that He must return in each and everyone of us before He does?

Jesus said, before he left his disciples, he would go and "prepare a place" for them, but he said that he would "come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." [John 14:1-3]

By the Spirit, Jesus comes to each of his saints individually. Jesus said to Judas, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." [John 14:22-23]

This is one sense in which Jesus comes. The Spirit has remained with believers since the time of the apostles. The author of Hebrews says,

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

By his Spirit, Jesus comes to the church continually. The time of the resurrection is also referred to as "coming of Christ."
   
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This event is yet to occur, at the last trump. [1 Corinthians 15:50-52] Revelation 11 describes the events of the 7th trumpet:

Revelation 11:15, 18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. ...
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

James said we should be patient "unto the coming of the Lord."

James 5:7-9
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Saints in all ages have looked for it. It is when they receive their reward.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Doug

Quote from: micah7:9 on July 23, 2010, 09:35:00 PM
He is coming, has been coming, and will come in those who are looking for Him.

It is so; so be it!

JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU, the Coming One, thy Righteousness.

JEHOVAH-JIREH, the Coming One, thy Provider.

JEHOVAH-ROPHI, the Coming One, thy Healer.

JEHOVAH-NISSI, the Coming One, thy Banner.

JEHOVAH-MEKADDISHKEN, the Coming One, thy Sanctifier.

JEHOVAH-SHALOM, the Coming One, thy Peace.

JEHOVAH-SABAOTH, the Coming One, thy Warrior.

JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH, the Coming One, Present with thee.

JEHOVAH-ELYON, the Coming One, Most High.

JEHOVAH-RA-AH, the Coming One, thy Shepherd.

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

WELL (we are talkin real big letters here, I means big) GLORY! :grin: :bigGrin: :Sparkletooth: :happygrin: :happy3: :thumbsup:

You guys seem to flip flop from one idea to another, you argue that he won't come in the clouds then you say that he is going to come. Are you trying to be clever, by arguing against us and then saying, that it will happen or have you have had revelation since your last posts  :dontknow:

Who are the clouds?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 24, 2010, 06:37:35 PM

Who are the clouds?

Proverbs 25:14
Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

There are various types of clouds; cumulus, stratus, cirrus, nimbus, and their combinations.

Rain clouds are called "nimbus."

Doug

Quote from: thinktank on July 24, 2010, 06:25:42 PM
You guys seem to flip flop from one idea to another, you argue that he won't come in the clouds then you say that he is going to come. Are you trying to be clever, by arguing against us and then saying, that it will happen or have you have had revelation since your last posts  :dontknow:

           No Flip Flops
(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1402/1402163an5yjq7sxr.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
    Footprints in the Sand

Hebrews 12:

1 Surely, in consequence, then, we also, having so vast a cloud of witnesses encompassing us, putting off every impediment and the popular sin, may be racing with endurance the contest lying before us,
2 looking off to the Inaugurator and Perfecter of faith, Jesus, Who, for the joy lying before Him, endures a cross, despising the shame, besides is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

One of the rabbinical names for the Messiah, based on Daniel 7:13-14, was "The Cloud Man."
Daniel writes:
"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like unto the Son of man CAME WITH THE CLOUDS of heaven..."
Christ, of course, is plainly identified as the "One who comes with the clouds" in the Salutation of Rev. 1:7:
"Behold, He COMETH WITH CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him..."
Furthermore, when our Lord was adjured by the High Priest to tell whether He was the Messiah or not, Jesus answered with the old equivalent of "Yes!"
Then He said, "Ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Mk. 14:62).

This identification was more than His enemies could bear. And so we read,
"Then the High Priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witness? Ye have heard the blasphemy: What think ye? And they all condemned Him to be guilty of death" (Mk. 14:63-64).
Why should the High Priest and those assembled, think it such BLASPHEMY for Jesus to say not only that they would see Him sitting on the right hand of Power, but also that they would see Him COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN?
The truth is, they knew that our Lord was claiming to be the "Son of the Blessed (God)," the one who would come in the CLOUD OF GLORY which had once filled the temple at Jerusalem!
Furthermore, they clearly understood that the "clouds" upon which Messiah would come were not the fleecy white clouds which scud across a summer sky, but in all reality they would be the blazing Shekinah Cloud which from times of old had veiled the Divine Presence.
How well the learned rabbis of Israel understood the true implication of Jesus' words!


www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Looking/Looking22.htm

 :grin:WELL SAID!  :thumbsup:

This is a favorite subject of mine and as I've gone through this thread, it causes me to want to comment on almost all the posts that by the time I get to the end of them, I don't know where to start.

For me . . ."if" the angels were talking about a physical return of Jesus when they stated "just as you saw him go . . ." then they had to have been lying to those to whom they were speaking to.  The one thing about the subtilty of the carnal mind it that it has a sneaky way of disregarding the generation hearing the words and making everything about "me" and "my" generation.  In all the studies on endtime events, so often the church seems to consistantly be ignoring the fact that these words being spoken were actually spoken to literal people listening and applying the words to themselves and not a generation 2000 years later.  And the angels were talking to "them" and not us as well.

So how did they see him go?  Was he flesh?  Not hardly.  You don't see people of our flesh passing through walls, appearing out of thin air and disappearing into thin air.  Jesus had already redeemed the flesh back to the father, why do we continue to try to bring him back to the flesh?  Carnality also causes us to want to cater to the flesh . . .the flesh has been dealt with, it is finished.  We still go through the "process" of redemption in our flesh because we are confined to the limits of time and space.  But the redemption for flesh has already been completed in Spirit.

So what was the state that he was in that they saw him go?  I believe it wasn't physical state, I beleive it was "resurrected" state.  And I beleive he "did" return to them in that same state and it started 10 days later when a tithe of Israel as well as the revealing and establishing of God's government (10, number for law times 12, number of God's government equals 120.  120 is the tithe of 12,000 Revelation speaks of from each tribe, the Holy Spirit is just a tithe of the fulness of God in us)  "That's" who has returned to me inwardly, a resurrected Christ that the religious can't seem to accept or identify.  

That's why they didn't recognize him after he resurrected . . .he was no longer in a fleshly state.  He was in a resurrected one.  

Quote from: Nathan on July 24, 2010, 08:53:25 PM

... 
120 is the tithe of 12,000 Revelation speaks of from each tribe, the Holy Spirit is just a tithe of the fulness of God in us)  

I think a tenth of 12,000 is 1,200, not 120.  :Sparkletooth:

Doug

Yikes . . .misprint there . . .I do believe you may be right.  120 is one percent not ten.  I'll have to keep that in mind because it obviously changes that part of things.  Doesn't change the other side though so I'll hang on to that.

Quote from: thinktank on July 22, 2010, 09:56:23 PM
To me it means he will come back and every eye will see him. This is the hope that he will come back to resurect the dead. This is not about salvation, but about God coming back, to harvest his people, the living and the dead, while also, cleansing the earth from sin, by destroying all the wicked in a place called armargeddon. So to me christ wants vengeance on his enemies, he has been long patient and has the right to execute vengeance upon the wicked during armageddon. I doubt no saint will feel sorry for them , in fact God tells the saints to rejoice in heaven for taking vengeance on mystery babylon, not the same as armageddon but shows that God does not expect us to feel sorry for our enemies.

The scripture says:

Exodus 23:4
If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.   
   
And this:   
   
Proverbs 25:21
If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:   

Which is quoted by Paul:

Romans 12:20
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.   

Jesus said,

Luke 6:35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Quote from: thinktank on July 22, 2010, 09:56:23 PM
You might think this is pointless, but think, if God wants to save all mankind he must show them that he is no pushover, the people during the battle of armageddon have the arrogance of trying to fight the almighty, so I believe armageddon is about proving to the universe, Gods might in dealing with his enemies.


John 20:17

How he does this may be what the prophecy of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 is all about. This prophecy is interpreted by John, in Revelation 20:8-9, as an assault upon the saints. The hordes of Gog and Magog come from all parts of the earth, against the saints, which is what "the camp of the saints" signifies. It is also "the beloved city." The saints are located in all parts of the earth, but they are a holy city.

Hebrews 12:22-23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

Also, Ezekiel said the invading hordes of Gog and Magog will come "like a cloud" that covers the land, "thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land." [Ezekiel 38:9] Also in vs. 16:

And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

The invaders of this great army cause God's fury to come up in his face, vs. 18. And it is their judgment that causes the heathen to know God. These invaders want money, and seek to "take a spoil."

Ezekiel 38:13
...Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

They come against the mountains of Israel, [vs. 8] and against the prophets of Israel [vs. 17].

Mountains of Israel are prominent parts of the promised land, so they represent the revelations of God, and the promises, and prophecies in scripture. Ezekiel's prophecy may apply to many organizations and individuals who offer their flawed interpretations of prophecy for sale, and seek to take people captive by means of their interpretations. God's response to them includes "great hailstones" and "an overflowing rain."

Ezekiel 38:22
And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

It is spiritual warfare, about interpretation of prophecy. How else could the invaders come against "the prophets of Israel," such as Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Joel, Zechariah, etc? The invaders are "like a cloud covering the land," but they are "clouds and wind without rain," and they boast of a false gift.

Proverbs 25:14
Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

They are hailed on, with "great hailstones" which likely represents the strong reproof contained in scripture against them. And, God calls for a sword against the invaders.

Ezekiel 38:21
And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

IMO, this is fulfilled when the supporters of preterism and dispensationalism battle each other!

Doug

Clouds contain air and water, representing the Soul and Spirit.

It is not for you to know the times or periods that the FATHER has set by his own authority:

But YOU will receive power when the SPIRIT has come upon YOU; and YOU will be my witnesses
in Jerusalem, in all Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

The SPIRIT created the world and all things in it; and does not dwell in temples made with hands.
So, why do you stand looking eastward, up towards the sky, waiting for the Sun to return?

The Kingdom of God (SPIRIT) IS WITHIN YOU.

peacemaker

Quote from: peacemaker on July 24, 2010, 11:14:07 PM
Clouds contain air and water, representing the Soul and Spirit.

It is not for you to know the times or periods that the FATHER has set by his own authority:

But YOU will receive power when the SPIRIT has come upon YOU; and YOU will be my witnesses
in Jerusalem, in all Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

The SPIRIT created the world and all things in it; and does not dwell in temples made with hands.
So, why do you stand looking eastward, up towards the sky, waiting for the Sun to return?

The Kingdom of God (SPIRIT) IS WITHIN YOU.

peacemaker

Because Jesus promised he would return, the spirit that is with us right now is "another", Jesus said I will send you another the "comforter". I will not leave you comfortless I'll send you another
Do not be sad but rejoice for I go unto the father. It is difficult to receive this truth though, if one is against the idea of holy ghost, it depends if one is open to that truth.

Quote from: thinktank on July 25, 2010, 12:45:14 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on July 24, 2010, 11:14:07 PM
Clouds contain air and water, representing the Soul and Spirit.

It is not for you to know the times or periods that the FATHER has set by his own authority:

But YOU will receive power when the SPIRIT has come upon YOU; and YOU will be my witnesses
in Jerusalem, in all Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

The SPIRIT created the world and all things in it; and does not dwell in temples made with hands.
So, why do you stand looking eastward, up towards the sky, waiting for the Sun to return?

The Kingdom of God (SPIRIT) IS WITHIN YOU.

peacemaker

Because Jesus promised he would return, the spirit that is with us right now is "another", Jesus said I will send you another the "comforter". I will not leave you comfortless I'll send you another

You must be reading from another Bible:

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Quote from: thinktank on July 25, 2010, 12:45:14 AM
Do not be sad but rejoice for I go unto the father. It is difficult to receive this truth though, if one is against the idea of holy ghost, it depends if one is open to that truth.

What truth?

Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Doug

Quote from: thinktank on July 25, 2010, 12:45:14 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on July 24, 2010, 11:14:07 PM
Clouds contain air and water, representing the Soul and Spirit.

It is not for you to know the times or periods that the FATHER has set by his own authority:

But YOU will receive power when the SPIRIT has come upon YOU; and YOU will be my witnesses
in Jerusalem, in all Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

The SPIRIT created the world and all things in it; and does not dwell in temples made with hands.
So, why do you stand looking eastward, up towards the sky, waiting for the Sun to return?

The Kingdom of God (SPIRIT) IS WITHIN YOU.

Because Jesus promised he would return, the spirit that is with us right now is "another", Jesus said I will send you another the "comforter". I will not leave you comfortless I'll send you another
Do not be sad but rejoice for I go unto the father. It is difficult to receive this truth though, if one is against the idea of holy ghost, it depends if one is open to that truth.

Syncretism?

Because it is written, "Be ye holy, for I AM HOLY."
And we know there is only one SPIRIT and Father of ALL.

peacemaker

John 14 from the Christian Bible (very literal);

16.  Now I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Encourager, so that It shall continually be with you even to the Last Age;  17.  Even the Spirit of Truth that the world can't get, because it isn't gazing at It or knowing It.  You are going to know It, because It is going to stay with you, and will be in you.  18.  I won't leave you orphaned;  I'm going to come to you..  19.  A little while still and the world isn't going to gaze at Me any longer, yet you are going to gaze at Me;  because I'm going to live, you too will live [in the Last Age].  20.  On that day you will know that I am in union My Father, and you are in union with Me, and I am in union with you.

Jab,
Is the Christian Bible online?

Hi Dave.  No, it's not.  The translators and organization are a self-described "simple people", so their means of getting their translation out is s/w primitive.  As I don't have a scanner, any time I post something from it I have to type it out word-for-word (oh, the pity   :faint: LOL, we've gotten spoiled, haven't we?).

I've thought several times of contacting them and offering help/trying to garner support for them, etc., but have yet to do so.

Imagine typing out the whole Bible!


You better get started — it's getting cloudy — a storm is coming!

LOL...I'll need some help.

I can't  help but believe that Jesus brings Utopia with Him..

"And immediately after, the tribulation, of those days... shall they see the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds.. and He will send forth His angels to gather His elect from the four corners (winds, directions) of the earth..."

"..with a mighty shout and the trumpet blast.."

"at the last trumpet.. those asleep in the grave will rise first then we which are alive and remain will be caught up into the air to meet Him" at His coming...

"His feet will touch down upon the mount of Olives"

"you will see* Him come just as you have seen* Him go" Acts 1;19(?)

Marsha said "I know you will raise him up on the last day"

"If anyone believe in me I will raise him on the last day"

Paul wrote "we will not precede those who are dead in Christ, but the dead will rise first then we which are alive and remain will meet Him in the air.."

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you will not see me again until you say blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD"...

Grat topic!! :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: jabcat on July 25, 2010, 03:15:36 AM
John 14 from the Christian Bible (very literal);

16.  Now I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Encourager, so that It shall continually be with you even to the Last Age;  17.  Even the Spirit of Truth that the world can't get, because it isn't gazing at It or knowing It.  You are going to know It, because It is going to stay with you, and will be in you.  18.  I won't leave you orphaned;  I'm going to come to you..  19.  A little while still and the world isn't going to gaze at Me any longer, yet you are going to gaze at Me;  because I'm going to live, you too will live [in the Last Age].  20.  On that day you will know that I am in union My Father, and you are in union with Me, and I am in union with you.

This is so beautiful.  "I won't leave you orphaned"


...the world isn't going to gaze at Me any longer, yet you are going to gaze at Me;



For I know that my Redeemer liveth...

...and, that in my flesh, I shall see God.

this is a very good topic, sorry i dont have much to contribute. i always wondered about the coming of christ. i always wondered why would he need a cloud? and i always thought that it cannot be physical because if he comes on USA side of the world how would our chinese brothers in china see him? so not it seems i have some learning to do. i read in awe as to how deep you guys/gals have been blessed with so much understanding.

A cloud of witnesses

His saints?

Yeah, cloud and sea  :mshock:

I was just thinking along these lines just today even.  It is tiny particles of dust that water forms upon and attaches to that creates a cloud.  We are formed out of the dust of the earth and we are 99% water.  When you mass people together in great numbers they look like a sea from a distance.  Natural reveals spiritual truth. 

It has been God's desire from the beginning not to just dwell "with" us, but to dwell "in" us.  I also believe that Jesus is accompanied by those who testify of him whereever he goes.  But these natural eyes are hindered from literally seeing that spiritual reality. 

This thread is on the second coming and someone early on had commented about not seeing "second coming" in Scripture.  And you won't.  The doctrine of this second coming has been the result of the natural minds of religious men reasoning within themselves that there is going to be a literal second coming of Jesus and our translations seem to project that same message.  But if you understand the reasoning "why" Jesus came in the flesh in the first place, you wouldn't then be questioning whether or not he's returning in the some flesh he was originally in.

for me, he came down from above to redeem that which was in a fallen state back to it's original alignment with the Father . .not so that he could then return down here . . .but so that we could pass through this veil of flesh and dwell with him  in the "upper room" place of intimacy.  Why would we want to insist he's returning in the flesh?  The flesh is the least important part of who we are.  The flesh is not where the eternal realm of life exists.  We continue to claim this flesh is temporary, Paul even stated that  . . .actually, I'm not sure if it was Paul who said it, but Scripture states that life on this earth is but a vapor.

If this is nothing more than a vapor in time, why would we then expect the eternal one to once again confine himself to one, individual body of flesh all over again?  It's like having Moses strike the rock a second time.  It's not the order.  The rock was struck once, living water flowed out.  Jesus came in the flesh once, living water flowed out of him.  To have him come in the flesh again would be lowering him from the higher realm a second time.

At least that's how I'm seeing it.

I still want to know why the "second coming" can't be a literal one.

It isn't carnal at all to want to actually see Jesus (the image of our Father!) face to face in person, in all of his glory and majesty; not just through some meta-spiritual assembly of believers, which already have failed miserably to be Christ like.  Behold the harlot system that is today's church...

Its like..."I see God in the flowers, the trees...the mountains!..."

No...I want to see God, not abstract manifestations of him through his creations.

The Greeks asked the same question.
Sir, we would like to see Jesus.
Jesus answered...

From my humble understanding, nobody said we wouldn't meet Him sometime, but that his appearing isn't a physical one but a revealing of His glorified body.

About the term "2nd coming", from my understanding again, it isn't scriptural.

I don't see him returning in the flesh, for that temple has been put to death, crucified but now he has risen in his glorified body and when he returns every eye shall see him as he is, in his glorified body, not in his flesh.

Revelation 1:7   

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

QuoteFrom my humble understanding, nobody said we wouldn't meet Him sometime, but that his appearing isn't a physical one but a revealing of His glorified body.

Define "Glorified Body".

Quote from: Lefein on September 12, 2010, 03:57:20 AM
I still want to know why the "second coming" can't be a literal one.

I believe He will appear literally.  Both in His saints and in His glorified, resurrected body - just as the disciples saw Him, talked and walked with Him, and watched Him go away.  Not His prior-to-the resurrection "old flesh", but the glorified/immortal body which hundreds saw prior to the ascension.

I believe there are a few teachers, on the opposite side of orthodoxy, that though they may be accurate regarding the body of sons, become too exclusive in their view and miss Jesus' appearing at the resurrection - the events the Apostle Paul was so excited about and so looked forward to.  And then the more those teachings are repeated, it's just accepted and spread as the truth.  That's my opinion - I have much more to learn and grow - about many things.    

I believe the scriptures teach both - the appearing of the sons and the Son of Man.  That's what I understand - I also understand there are various other views.  

Blessings.

P.S.  I personally don't call it the second coming.  I would see it more as His "glorious appearing" - when we shall behold Him as He is - in the same manner in which He went away.  Just as the angels said.  I believe in it being spiritual, but not "over-spiritualized".   :2c:

Once again, I understand many things are interpreted differently and I can only state what I personally read and understand.   :bigGrin:

I'll get to the bare bones, honest, nitty gritty, as Shawn often likes to point out. :winkgrin:

...I could care absolutely less, and next to nothing really...about seeing Jesus "as presented through" Jim-bob, Basil, Mary, Daisy, Little John, James, Issac, George and McPhinnigan...or any other individual who was ever born on this earth who is a part of "The Body of Christ".

I want to see Jesus Himself, as Himself.  

And certainly not as some abstract "invisibeing" where "spiritual body" is a code word for "He's in your heart!  Be thankful for it! >: |".

If that makes sense...

I get it.  We shall behold Him.

However, you named me twice (Jim, James)  :laughing7:.   You just gave me permission to be really, really mean to you.    :happy3:

Just kidding.

Quote from: jabcat on September 12, 2010, 04:46:20 AM

Quote from: Lefein on September 12, 2010, 03:57:20 AM
I still want to know why the "second coming" can't be a literal one.

I believe He will appear literally.  Both in His saints and in His glorified, resurrected body - just as the disciples saw Him, talked and walked with Him, and watched Him go away.  Not His prior-to-the resurrection "old flesh", but the glorified/immortal body which hundreds saw prior to the ascension.

I believe there are a few teachers, on the opposite side of orthodoxy, that though they may be accurate regarding the body of sons, become too exclusive in their view and miss Jesus' appearing at the resurrection - the events the Apostle Paul was so excited about and so looked forward to.  And then the more those teachings are repeated, it's just accepted and spread as the truth.  That's my opinion - I have much more to learn and grow - about many things.    

I believe the scriptures teach both - the appearing of the sons and the Son of Man.  That's what I understand - I also understand there are various other views.  

Blessings.

:bigGrin: I'm looking forward to it :thumbsup:

2 Corinthians 5:

16 So that we, from now on, are acquainted with no one according to flesh. Yet even if we have known Christ according to flesh, nevertheless now we know Him so no longer.

"He taketh away the first that He may establish the second."



Ah, how do WE see Him? As He WAS, or as He IS? Is our understanding of Him as the lowly Son of man, great and wonderful as He was in that former state, or do we see Him as He IS in His exalted position at the right hand of the majesty on high?

Do we see Him as the crucified One? It is wonderful to see Him in that way. Do we see Him as the One who endured the cross, despised the shame, conquered death and rose triumphant from the grave?

Or do we see Him as the ascended One, the glorified One; the One who transcended the law of sin, rose above the confining, limiting physical laws of nature and ascended into the Spirit realm of God, the Head of all principalities and powers, far above them all; crowned with glory and honor; Lord and King of the universe; FILLING ALL THINGS WITH HIS QUICKENING LIFE.

Do we see Him as a physical Man, or do we see Him as Saul of Tarsus saw Him on the Damascus road, as the Light of God brighter than the noonday sun.

Do we see Him with gentle blue eyes, seamless robe, and feet shod with the sandles of yesteryear; or do we see Him as John the Revelator saw Him on Patmos with eyes as a flame of fire, His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters!  — Eby

Quote from: Lefein on September 12, 2010, 04:39:09 AM

QuoteFrom my humble understanding, nobody said we wouldn't meet Him sometime, but that his appearing isn't a physical one but a revealing of His glorified body.

Define "Glorified Body".

His Church of which He is the Head.

The alabaster vessel has been broken.
He takes away the first, so that he might establish the second.

Cain - Able;
Cain's sacrifice - Able's sacrifice;
Ishmael - Isaac;
Esau - Jacob;
Letter - Spirit;
First Covenant - New Covenant;
Water baptism - Spirit baptism;
First Adam - Second Adam;
First earth - New earth;
Old man - New creation;
Jesus in flesh - Jesus in Spirit.

chicken - egg

Pizza - stomach

beer - drunk

water - wine


Which ones the odd one out?  :laughing7:

No need for personal insults.  Please rephrase anything personally negative to keep me from deleting.  I like posting in this thread, but if I need to I'll pull out and moderate.  We can talk about issues, facts, understandings without making personal judgments.  Thanks.

Edit;  this post was either not seen or was ignored, so edits made.  Blessings to all, let's move onward and upward.   :bigGrin:

 :cloud9: I don't personally think we'll literally see a flesh and blood Jesus, but to be perfectly honest, it doesn't faze me one way or the other. If we do, fine; if we don't, fine. He's so real to me now, having a flesh and blood body to look at, is not a necessity in my life.

As I shared somewhere on here, I have seen Him face to face in another, like their flesh was a thin veil I could see Him thru. If it gets any better than that, I think I'd die from the shock of it  :bigGrin: Blessings.....

Jab, that was not intended as an insult, just an observation of what I perceive as an irreverent manner in treating Scriptures.
The Bible should be taken as seriously as conceivably possible.
The one making jokes about the Word is the odd man out.

Great post Card.  You know, although I've said I believe we will see Him (not flesh and blood, but His glorified body - even though I admit, I certainly don't know what that looks like - maybe what you described you saw) - still, He's got it all under control, figured out, and it'll be perfect!

Thanks Dave, and thanks for the good spirit.

IMO, your post just now explains your position without it (at least) appearing so directly personal.

Now, if I truly misunderstood, please forgive me.  Sometimes decisions have to made, and I certainly don't think I always make the absolute right one.  Not whining  :violin:, but sometimes it's not easy to make the right call.   :skittles:

And bottom line, even when moderating, I can't really criticize personally either, because sometimes I put my foot in my own mouth; and wound with words.  Ah, the tongue - that little member that wrecks big ships.  :mblush:

And Card,
I've looked into His eyes too.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 12, 2010, 06:49:30 AM
Jab, that was not intended as an insult, just an observation of what I perceive as an irreverent manner in treating Scriptures.
The Bible should be taken as seriously as conceivably possible.
The one making jokes about the Word is the odd man out.

I wasn't making jokes about the word, it is an observation of life. Tell me what's wrong with the statement

chicken - egg
water - wine
Pizza - stomach
beer - drunk
Where is the insult to the word? Didn't God turn water into wine, didn't God create the chicken? Doesn't food end up in the stomach, doesn't drink make one merry?. Nowhere is insult to be seen so your observation is incorrect.

have you heard about the statement, which came first the chicken or the egg?

If one cannot have joy then one misses a source of strength, for God said the joy of the lord is my strength.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/levity


lev·i·ty:
lightness of mind, character, or behavior; lack of appropriate seriousness or earnestness

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 12, 2010, 07:48:59 PM


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/levity


lev·i·ty:
lightness of mind, character, or behavior; lack of appropriate seriousness or earnestness

You should quote that at a funeral perhaps, if one is behaving to light hearted.

Now, that's ironic.

I just spoke, at length, at a funeral service just 2 weeks ago today.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 12, 2010, 08:12:15 PM

Now, that's ironic.

I just spoke, at length, at a funeral service just 2 weeks ago today.

Your a preacher? Do you talk about UR in your congregation?

That was the first time I ever spoke to a crowd of people.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 12, 2010, 06:05:12 AM

Cain - Able;
Cain's sacrifice - Able's sacrifice;
Ishmael - Isaac;
Esau - Jacob;
Letter - Spirit;
First Covenant - New Covenant;
Water baptism - Spirit baptism;
First Adam - Second Adam;
First earth - New earth;
Old man - New creation;
Jesus in flesh - Jesus in Spirit.

Cains sacrifice? what was that.     Abels sacrifice was himself was it not?

 :cloud9: Cain's sacrifice was rejected because it was a bloodless offering. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.....Blessings....

Cain's sacrifice was done of duty, not of Love.  That is why it was rejected.

The purposes of their sacrifice where never mentioned, only that they sacrificed.

Only Abel's sacrifice was mentioned as being the best of his produce; Cain's was only mentioned as being from his produce.

We give the best when our motives spring from love.  We give the bare when our motives spring from duty.

God is Love, and will only accept himself, or things pertaining to himself, or out of himself.  A sacrifice out of Love is received, a sacrifice out of duty is not even of God to begin with.

 :cloud9: Yes, I can see that, too......the motive of the heart determined the sacrifice, just as the motive of the heart determines everything we do or don't do.

Cain's was what was brought forth out of the earth, the works of men's flesh. Abel's to me represented the best brought forth out of the works of the Spirit, ie. same as making it according to the pattern shown thee in the mount. Blessings....

Cain's sacrifice was also a harvested offering from a cursed earth.  The whole story of Cain and Abel is a great analogy of how the spirit and soul operate. 

Jude 1:11;
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

Hebrews 11:4;
By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

Beauty for your ashes!
We are the asses!

Deuteronomy 23:5;
Nevertheless the LORD thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the LORD thy God loved thee.

Go back even further . . .Noah means rest . . .Ararat means "the curse is reversed".  When "Rest" enters the ark, it comes to "rest" on "the curse is reversed."

Let there be Light

Chosen Before the Foundation of the World

Malachi 3:16
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard [it], and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

Quote from: Zero7 on July 21, 2010, 10:52:08 PM
I know there have been many posts on the 2nd coming but I have one for those of you that believe that Christ will not come back until all of His enemies have been layed at His feet.

Matthew 24:30: At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

Doesn't this contradict that teaching? The nations of the earth will mourn at His coming.

Thx.

hi! It also says, as another contradiction, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 that when Jesus comes He comes with two things, comfort for those of His who are afflicted* and with "His mighty angels in flaming fire dealing out retribution to" the disobedient".

* "afflicted" is the same greek word as also translated "tribulation"

[related notes? "flaming fire" and Christ's return -- When Jesus said "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you will not see me again, until you say "blessed is HE who comes in the name of the LORD" (Matthew 23:37-39) I believe this to be that when Israel/Jerusalem comes to be "surrounded by armies" (Luke 21:20; Revelation 16;14-16) the armies of the world, this crises brings her to finally recognizing her Messiah. The end of Revelation chapter 12 also suggests this - "the dragon was enraged with the woman so went to wage war against the rest of her children" (the natural as opposed to the grafted) "who keep the commandments of God and" (by this time?) "hold to the testimony of Jesus." The "waging war" being that last great battle (Revelation 16:14,15,16 - "three unclean spirits go out to the kings of the earth to gather to Armageddon (behold I am coming as a thief blessed is the one waiting)" [cr Daniel 12:11,12] "and they gathered them together to the place called Har-megeddon."

This I believe is the "flaming fire" of 2 Thessalonians 1:8; the end of the pause of Revelation 7:1 (after the "opening" of the Sixth Seal when a new destructive wind was "opened" changing life forever on planet earth, there is a pause (7:1) "four angels hold the four corners of the world" (north, south, east, west) "that the" (new?) "wind not blow for a time" (paraphrased!)

The Seven Seals actually work as a seal to the whole Book of Revelation message! It obscures the message because each seal when it is opened is described fully - as a blend of what it is when it first begins or is opened at its infancy, and what it is at the 'end' when it is full blown and fully matured. Therefore things which occur very late, are described here so early on in the narrative.

I can't stop here! But have to leave one more reference: Revelation 13:13 is that very same "flaming fire" which already occurred at the "opening" of the Sixth Seal (Revelation 6:12-17) in 1945, at Hiroshima and Nagasaki "darkening the sky" and was also a great spiritual "earthquake" for it changed life upon planet earth, and men did "go to the caves" (bomb shelters) - but now there's been a pause (7:1) from it.