UR Questions

[Bethany]

Truth cannot be argued- it must be sought.
Seek and ye shall find...

Bethany

[fullarmor2]

My older brother and I like to delve into this debate from time to time. He is with the Assemblies of God. I'll state some of the things he says.  In addition to saying that ET is just, he says you simply do not understand how it is just with finite human reasoning.  He also says that you don't understand how serious it is to reject Christ. And that the seriousness of rejecting Christ makes ET just. I think my brother is saying that since the eternal God is offended, that warrants eternal punishment.
      I'll just start listing things faster now.   
    ET is true because if we  take somebody who is just learning, and they read the Bible, an ET perspective is what they will come away with. And not with UR beliefs. So you see,  this is because its Bible. It says what it says and you are just trying to twist the word to mean something else because you don't like the doctrine of hell fire as presented in the word.  The reason UR people are doing what they are doing is because they don't like what the word says on this topic.

[fullarmor2]

Look at all the great men of God down thru the centuries, starting with Jesus, he talked extensively about hell, most believed in ET. Look at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, ect....   These are taking the Gosple to the world on a scale like no one else,  they are on the front lines of what God is doing in the world, you know they pray alot being such great men of God,  so why did God not let them know that ET is wrong and that UR is right?  ET must be right or these men would know it.
     

[fullarmor2]

It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment.   Thats a Bible verse and it proves that there is no chance to be saved after death.  When a person dies thats it. Its judgment time. And you either got it or you don't.
      You UR people are saying the same thing  certain other groups say about their false doctrine. "It takes a revelation of God to see what we are saying that it is true".   And the reason you are forced into that position is because what you UR people say is NOT Bible!
       UR people twist the word of God and make it mean what they want it to. ET people simply let the Bible say what it says.
     

[SeekerSA]

Look at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland,

Hmm Televangelists

Well even in most ET forums, these guys are not viewed in a favorable light.

And no, if the word is going out via the airways as inferred, does not mean it it being received.

Man followers

[Davo22]

Look at all the great men of God down thru the centuries, starting with Jesus, he talked extensively about hell, most believed in ET. Look at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, ect....   These are taking the Gosple to the world on a scale like no one else,  they are on the front lines of what God is doing in the world, you know they pray alot being such great men of God,  so why did God not let them know that ET is wrong and that UR is right?  ET must be right or these men would know it.
     

Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see things, but have not been able to.

[Davo22]

Hey Fullamore2. I don't mean disrespect by the following, but to help.

ET is true because if we  take somebody who is just learning, and they read the Bible, an ET perspective is what they will come away with. And not with UR beliefs.

What, so first impressions are the only thing that count? My first impression was that the road was clear, but when I looked again, I saw a truck. If I hadn't have looked back, it would have cost me my life. Your reasoning leads to death.

[SeekerSA]

Look at all the great men of God down thru the centuries, starting with Jesus, he talked extensively about hell, most believed in ET.

This is a common fallacy.  Do a word search on "Kingdom of" vs. "Hell" in the NT, see what you come up with.  Your brother is indoctrinated and has not done studies of the early church fathers.  I suggest reading this thread Tracing Universalist Thought...   You can also see the results of a "hell" vs. "kingdom" research here.

Look at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, etc....   These are taking the Gospel to the world on a scale like no one else,  they are on the front lines of what God is doing in the world, you know they pray alot being such great men of God,  so why did God not let them know that ET is wrong and that UR is right?  ET must be right or these men would know it.

This is a false premise.  All these mentioned are well entrenched in their false doctrines, have big churches or big TV ministries.  This is no way indicative of being a godly  person or not, yes they may reach some, they sure are not reaching all. If they were on the real front lines, they would be unnoticed and would be in the slums, prisons, all the vile places; where the sinners hang out that they preach against.  Just compare Jesus' ministry, where was He?  He was in the fields and countryside most of the time; in the temples and synagogues, He mostly went there to sort out the Pharisees.

Based on these men's TV exposure, there is no evidence to suggest they are prayer warriors.  Rod Parsley is about the only one I know of that has an outreach to a needy country (Somalia I think) that he talks about, of the 4 preachers you mentioned.  Problem is that most folk give money expecting others to do the dirty work for them, this is not how Jesus intended it to be.  There are missionaries that are on the real front lines, living in the same conditions as the folk that they minister to, those folk are the ones that should get financial aid.

So tell your brother, a hungry Sudanese family do not have a TV let alone a satellite dish for TBN in most cases they do not have electricity.  The percentage reached via TBN as far as seekers is likely less than 0.01% of the world population.  Jesus said "Go" not "stay at home and send messages".  Look at the Apostles, what did they do? they went out to the people.  They were simple poor folk.  Your brother's heroes are all rich temple robbers.

They preach the Good News but do not bring the Good News to the the people that need it.  Even if Benny Hinn has a $7M crusade, which is more for his self image than anything else, the people he preaches to are already 90% converts so what is he actually achieving.  Take the money he spends on these crusades, and put it to use in meeting the real needs of the needy and there will be many more reached.  All your brothers heroes are part of the "bling-bling" gospel.

They do not know of UR as UR is not about just denying ET, it is about understanding the mysteries of God which does not come about by teaching of men but of the Holy Spirit.  The great teachers of our time are those that go away from the lime-light and seek God's face and get into deeper study on the scriptures.  Most Christians have a pigeon-hole theology, fill the holes once and all is satisfied.  God is a river, not a swamp. Revelation is continuous not a once-off.  Jesus told us the He would teach us, not a pastor.

Blessings

[SeekerSA]

...In addition to saying that ET is just, he says you simply do not understand how it is just with finite human reasoning.  He also says that you don't understand how serious it is to reject Christ. And that the seriousness of rejecting Christ makes ET just. I think my brother is saying that since the eternal God is offended, that warrants eternal punishment.

People do not reject Christ when the Father is part of the drawing process. John 6:44-45

   

ET is true because if we  take somebody who is just learning, and they read the Bible, an ET perspective is what they will come away with. And not with UR beliefs. So you see,  this is because its Bible.

This is not true, I got saved and never believed there could be a hell as taught to equal the unfathomable Love of God.  Bibles are incorrectly translated wrt to the word hell.  And no people reading the bible for the 1st time will see the Love of God shining through and see that the "ET" gnashing of teeth is directed at the Pharisees in most instances, the needy were always dealt with in Love by Jesus.  Young children do not even believe in a hell and that is w/o any biblical knowledge unless they have a brute for a natural father then maybe.

Your brother read with a carnal understanding of scripture.  Invite him here and let him test his theology and/or biblical understanding, he will be pleasantly surprised of how little he actually knows.  If he is up to the challenge.

It says what it says and you are just trying to twist the word to mean something else because you don't like the doctrine of hell fire as presented in the word.  The reason UR people are doing what they are doing is because they don't like what the word says on this topic.

Oh we like the what the word "actually" says, we know the true meaning of hell is nothing more than the grave where we all end up, dead and buried.  Ask him why the rapture has not happened yet, then ask him why he believes a RCC invented lie.  You can read about it here.

You see, your brother is blinded by the lies of the doctrines of men, all he has is fire insurance and he does not need it, no one does.

Blessings

[willieH]

willieH: Hi fullarmor2... :hithere: ...welcome to TM  :welcome:

Look at all the great men of God down thru the centuries, starting with Jesus, he talked extensively about hell,

:Yeahright:

This is QUITE, ...incorrect!  JESUS used the Words HADES or GEHENNA (neither of which MEAN HELL, but are so translated) on only 7 occasions in 3.5yrs of ministry... that can HARDLY be considered as EXTENSIVE!  This type of MISinformation (that JESUS extensively spoke of "hell") is a large part of the CORRUPTION of TRADITION which the below named (supposed) "preachers of the Gospel" propose...

Here they are: \

GEHENNA (10 total uses by JESUS on 4 OCCASIONS, in 3.5yrs):

1.  Sermon on the mount Matt 5:22, 29 / Mk 9:43,45,47 (5 uses spoken to the DISCIPLES only, made on the same DAY/Occasion)
2.  Warning the Apostles whom to fear: Matt 10:28 / Luke 12:5 (2 uses spoken the the DISCIPLES only, made on the same DAY/Occasion)
3.  Upbraiding the Pharisees: Matt 23:15, 33 (2 uses spoken to the RELIGIOUS leaders on ONE Occasion)
4.  Warning against corrupting innocents with RELIGION: Matt 18:9 (1 use spoken to the DISCIPLES, ONE occasion)

HADES (4 total uses by JESUS on 3 OCCASIONS, in 3.5yrs)

1.  Capernaum exalted to heaven: Matt 11:23 / Lk 10:15 (2 uses on ONE Occasion)
2.  Telling Peter his destiny: Matt 16:18 (1 use, ONE Occasion)
3.  Parable of Rich man & Lazerus: Lk 16:23 (1 use, ONE Occasion)

Okay Fullarmor... that is IT!  Seven total mentions of any word which can be believed to be HELL, in three & a half YEARS of teaching!  That is about 2 mentions a YEAR!  You call that EXTENSIVE?  Please...  :laughing7:

I would like to ADD that the Apostle JOHN made NO (zero, zippo, nada)  MENTIONS of ANY of the 3 words in the NT which are translated HELL... Did he just forget?  Or was it just NOT worth mentioning?

Let's not forget PAUL, who wrote MOST of the NT... He did not mention HELL at all!  NOTHING!  Whatupwidat?  :mshock:

Or it is better understood, that HELL is a creation of MEN and  RELIGIOUS TRADITION, and not of the Scriptures at ALL...

A FEAR word, which is FALSELY translated from the words GEHENNA (which was a physical place) HADES (which actually means the GRAVE - see the SEPTUAGINT - Greek translation of the entire BIBLE), ...and TARTARUS (used once in the NT, and is the deepest "region" of HADES/GRAVE)

most believed in ET. Look at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, ect....   These are taking the Gosple to the world on a scale like no one else,  they are on the front lines of what God is doing in the world, you know they pray alot being such great men of God,  so why did God not let them know that ET is wrong and that UR is right?  ET must be right or these men would know it.

I have one Scripture forya Fullarmor... here it is:

Matt 24:5  For MANY shall come in My Name saying I am CHRIST, and shall <<<DECIEVE>>> ...MANY!

MANY, Fillamor, shall come in the name of CHRIST and those MANY, will DECIEVE ...MANY... I suggest to YOU, that it is these supposedly notable men you mention above are doing JUST THAT my friend...

The FEW of us that believe UR, even if it were a deception (which it IS NOT!), could hardly be considered as decieving MANY...  :dontknow:

Your own words identify the DECIEVERS, ...for THEY are the ones who qualify in number, those mentioned in Matt 24:5 above... MANY shall come in My name and <<<DECIEVE>>> ...MANY!

Peace  :newb:

In  JESUS...willieH :gamer:

[firstborn888]

Look at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, ect....   These are taking the Gosple to the world on a scale like no one else,  they are on the front lines of what God is doing in the world, you know they pray alot being such great men of God,  so why did God not let them know that ET is wrong and that UR is right?  ET must be right or these men would know it.

My wife used this one on me. My response: If they're so great, why did you marry me instead of one of them? :mshock:

- byron

[Hennessey]

 :laughing7:  good one Byron!

[FineLinen]

      You UR people are saying the same thing  certain other groups say about their false doctrine. "It takes a revelation of God to see what we are saying that it is true".   And the reason you are forced into that position is because what you UR people say is NOT Bible!
     

Armor: can you disclose to us why the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to the masses by way of parable?


"Having made known unto us the mystery/hidden purpose/secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, which He has purposed in Himself....."

Bonus question: What is the secret purpose of the will of God as declared by the Apostle St. Paul in Eph. 1?

[pickr]

Hi fullarmor,

Just a some quick comments on your brother's reasoning.

In addition to saying that ET is just, he says you simply do not understand how it is just with finite human reasoning.

Finite human reasoning is all human beings are equpped with, at least sans the illumination of the Holy Spirit.

He also says that you don't understand how serious it is to reject Christ. And that the seriousness of rejecting Christ makes ET just. I think my brother is saying that since the eternal God is offended, that warrants eternal punishment.

The problem with this is that it is just simply NOT biblical. The wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment. The Bible also states that Jesus tasted death for every man.

ET is true because if we  take somebody who is just learning, and they read the Bible, an ET perspective is what they will come away with. And not with UR beliefs.

Hee hee! Isn't that convenient?!!! Of course, that's only true in translations that butcher the meaning of aion/aionian. AND it's only true because humanity (at least in the Western world) has been hammered with the ET doctrine for 1,500 years.

Moreover, once the truth of Jesus' salvation of the world was opened to me, I can attest (as I'm sure most people here can) that the Bible opened to me in startling new ways. God's plan of salvation is, quite literally, ALL OVER THE PLACE, repeated again and again and again, in plain words as well as in type and shadow. (Gary has a list of hundreds of verses, and it is not a complete list. For the complete list, see the Bible! ;) )

So you see,  this is because its Bible. It says what it says and you are just trying to twist the word to mean something else because you don't like the doctrine of hell fire as presented in the word.  The reason UR people are doing what they are doing is because they don't like what the word says on this topic.

"UR people" have well-reasoned, perfectly plausible and Biblically sound reasons to deal forcefully with the arguments for the doctrine of endless torment. The same CANNOT be said for the ETists. How does your brother explain away Isaiah's prophecy that the ends of the earth will look to the Lord for salvation, every knee bowing to Him, every tongue confessing His lordship, all to the glory of God? How does he explain away Paul, who describes Jesus undoing what Adam did to humanity? And who states unequivocally that Jesus is the savior of ALL men, especiallly of those who believe?

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Peace and blessings,

Andy

[firstborn888]

It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron

[hopeful]

It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

Then byron said:
I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron


I don't know if that is true or not, byron but what I look at is the word judgment.  The judgment of the Just Judge is goooood stuff!   :HeartThrob:  Whether it be past- present -future- or in that place where there is no time.

[firstborn888]

It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

Then byron said:
I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron


I don't know if that is true or not, byron but what I look at is the word judgment.  The judgment of the Just Judge is goooood stuff!   :HeartThrob:  Whether it be past- present -future- or in that place where there is no time.

Yes, so many people take the word judgment as a negative. I love Ps. 98:

A Song of Praise to the LORD for His Salvation and Judgment

1 Oh, sing to the LORD a new song!
        For He has done marvelous things;
        His right hand and His holy arm have gained Him the victory.
        2The LORD has made known His salvation;
        His righteousness He has revealed in the sight of the nations.
        3He has remembered His mercy and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
        All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.


        4Shout joyfully to the LORD, all the earth;
        Break forth in song, rejoice, and sing praises.
        5Sing to the LORD with the harp,
        With the harp and the sound of a psalm,
        6With trumpets and the sound of a horn;
        Shout joyfully before the LORD, the King.


        7Let the sea roar, and all its fullness,
        The world and those who dwell in it;
        8Let the rivers clap their hands;
        Let the hills be joyful together before the LORD,
        9For He is coming to judge the earth.
        With righteousness He shall judge the world,
        And the peoples with equity.

        That's clear enough!

- byron

[hopeful]

Amen!

[Peacetroll]

My  :2c:

I believe the judgement could be seen as the following:

Matthew 25:32-34 (King James Version)

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep (silver?) on his right hand, but the goats (dross?) on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

I certainly hope I'm judged to be a sheep on his right and not a goat on his left!

Proverbs 25:4
Take away the dross (goats?) from the silver (sheep?), and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.

Again,

Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat (sheep?  Silver?) into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff (goats?  dross?) with unquenchable fire.

What makes us sheep or silver and not dross or goats???

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[FineLinen]

My  :2c:

I believe the judgement could be seen as the following:

Matthew 25:32-34 (King James Version)

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep (silver?) on his right hand, but the goats (dross?) on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

I certainly hope I'm judged to be a sheep on his right and not a goat on his left!

Could you tell us why the Master is speaking of two clean animals, rather than clean and unclean like sheep and dogs, or sheep and swine? And, P.T., can you list the qualifications, according to the context of St. Matthew 25, for being a sheep and a goat? They would be what?

[Peacetroll]

The true qualifier is Christ.

I can judge no one, but we do have indications throughout scripture as to what it takes to be a sheep (true follower of Christ).

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Faith in what?  you may ask....

Faith that Christ is who he says he is, was raised from the dead and has forgiven our sins.  And faith that he alone can overcome our weakness, our infirmnities and our faults; changing us into his likeness.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Galatians 3:5-7 (King James Version)
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Faith in Christ is what everyone of his sheep have. 

Those who hate Christ and what he stands for ostensibly are from the spirit of error, and are in danger of the second death (total annihilation of the soul/being).

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Peace in Christ.

[FineLinen]

What I asked you P.T. is the following....

Could you tell us why the Master is speaking of two clean animals, rather than clean and unclean like sheep and dogs, or sheep and swine? And, P.T., can you list the qualifications, according to the context of St. Matthew 25, for being a sheep and a goat? They would be what?

Can you tell us according to the context of the Master's words in St. Matthew 25, what qualifies a sheep and a goat? And, P.T. why does the Master of the Reconciliation speak to two clean animals, and not a clean and an unclean one?

[Peacetroll]

I enjoy your questions.  I will do my best to give you my understanding and belief;

I have come to understand the clean and/or the sheep to be those who have faith in Christ, certainly they have love in their hearts. 

I have come to understand the unclean and/or the goats to be those without fiath in Christ, and without love in their hearts (evident by their fruits).

What so many fail to take into account is the Millinium and the events that take place therein.  This is the time when all who have not heard of him,...will.  And all those who have not heard and believed (or misunderstood therefore did not believe), but have love written in their hearts (and this love being evident in their  fruits), will certainly come to him.

As far as the two 'clean' animals, it depends on what you term clean.

If we observe a sheep, we see they follow their shepard wherever he goes.  If you observe a goat, you will find that it does not follow it's shepard wherever he may lead.

Perhaps it is this particular nature of these animals  that Christ is using as a metaphor to differentiate between those who love evil and self and those who love goodness and God.

One thing I do know is that in the context of the Matthew 25 verse, the goats are unacceptable to him and the sheep are acceptable.  And what is it we must do to be acceptable to Jesus?

Believe in him and do our best to do as he asked us.  Our faith in Christ is our righteousness.  Our love for him is our hope and our gift from God.

I would enjoy your explanation.  Do you consider the goats flesh?  And the sheep the soul?  Im very curious as to your understanding on this matter.

Peace in Christ.

[FineLinen]

I enjoy your questions.  I will do my best to give you my understanding and belief;

I have come to understand the clean and/or the sheep to be those who have faith in Christ, certainly they have love in their hearts. 

I have come to understand the unclean and/or the goats to be those without fiath in Christ, and without love in their hearts (evident by their fruits).

P.T. you will find that the Old Covenant Scriptures are the foundation upon which rests the Master of the Reconciliation's further words. Both sheep and goats are clean animals, and as such addressed by the Master. Do you know that the early Christian catacombs had the Master carrying a goat upon His ample shoulder? Why?

And according to the context of our Master's words in St. Matt. 25, there are qualifications for both sheep and goats. Is love in their hearts one of them? Is faith in Christ one of them? What exactly qualifies a sheep and a goat?

And what is it we must do to be acceptable to Jesus?

Believe in him and do our best to do as he asked us.

Now, my friend, there is nowhere in the context that speaks of believing in Him. Not that belief in the Saviour of all mankind is not a foundational aspect of partaking of His Life. But this is simply not in the context of the only passage of Scripture mentioned by none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, regarding sheep and goats and aionios kolasis and aionios zoe. Please list for us what qualifies a 1. sheep and 2. a goat?

[Peacetroll]

It was a sheep.

It also matches this following scripture:

Luke 15:4
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

It was a sheep.

And we must analyse the parable to the fullest.  We should also see similar deeper meanings throughout (which we do):

Example: 

Tree of Life....Tree of Knowledge

Light.....Darkness.

Love.....Wrath

Life....Death

Clean...Unclean.

Rod.....Sword.

The Righteous....The Wicked.

Those who Love....Those who oppress.

Faith.....No Faith.

Sons of the Father......Sons of Satan.

Wheat.....Darnel.

Sheep.....Goats

Spirit of Truth....Spirit of Error.