Tentmaker Forum

Truth cannot be argued- it must be sought.
Seek and ye shall find...

Bethany

My older brother and I like to delve into this debate from time to time. He is with the Assemblies of God. I'll state some of the things he says.  In addition to saying that ET is just, he says you simply do not understand how it is just with finite human reasoning.  He also says that you don't understand how serious it is to reject Christ. And that the seriousness of rejecting Christ makes ET just. I think my brother is saying that since the eternal God is offended, that warrants eternal punishment.
      I'll just start listing things faster now.   
    ET is true because if we  take somebody who is just learning, and they read the Bible, an ET perspective is what they will come away with. And not with UR beliefs. So you see,  this is because its Bible. It says what it says and you are just trying to twist the word to mean something else because you don't like the doctrine of hell fire as presented in the word.  The reason UR people are doing what they are doing is because they don't like what the word says on this topic.

Look at all the great men of God down thru the centuries, starting with Jesus, he talked extensively about hell, most believed in ET. Look at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, ect....   These are taking the Gosple to the world on a scale like no one else,  they are on the front lines of what God is doing in the world, you know they pray alot being such great men of God,  so why did God not let them know that ET is wrong and that UR is right?  ET must be right or these men would know it.
     

It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment.   Thats a Bible verse and it proves that there is no chance to be saved after death.  When a person dies thats it. Its judgment time. And you either got it or you don't.
      You UR people are saying the same thing  certain other groups say about their false doctrine. "It takes a revelation of God to see what we are saying that it is true".   And the reason you are forced into that position is because what you UR people say is NOT Bible!
       UR people twist the word of God and make it mean what they want it to. ET people simply let the Bible say what it says.
     

QuoteLook at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland,

Hmm Televangelists

Well even in most ET forums, these guys are not viewed in a favorable light.

And no, if the word is going out via the airways as inferred, does not mean it it being received.

Man followers

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:04:36 AM
Look at all the great men of God down thru the centuries, starting with Jesus, he talked extensively about hell, most believed in ET. Look at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, ect....   These are taking the Gosple to the world on a scale like no one else,  they are on the front lines of what God is doing in the world, you know they pray alot being such great men of God,  so why did God not let them know that ET is wrong and that UR is right?  ET must be right or these men would know it.
     

Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see things, but have not been able to.

Hey Fullamore2. I don't mean disrespect by the following, but to help.

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 05:55:36 AMET is true because if we  take somebody who is just learning, and they read the Bible, an ET perspective is what they will come away with. And not with UR beliefs.

What, so first impressions are the only thing that count? My first impression was that the road was clear, but when I looked again, I saw a truck. If I hadn't have looked back, it would have cost me my life. Your reasoning leads to death.

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:04:36 AM
Look at all the great men of God down thru the centuries, starting with Jesus, he talked extensively about hell, most believed in ET.

This is a common fallacy.  Do a word search on "Kingdom of" vs. "Hell" in the NT, see what you come up with.  Your brother is indoctrinated and has not done studies of the early church fathers.  I suggest reading this thread Tracing Universalist Thought...  (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=105.0)  You can also see the results of a "hell" vs. "kingdom" research here (http://www.mychurch.org/blog/77696/Hell-vs-Kingdom-Jesus-Teachings).

QuoteLook at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, etc....   These are taking the Gospel to the world on a scale like no one else,  they are on the front lines of what God is doing in the world, you know they pray alot being such great men of God,  so why did God not let them know that ET is wrong and that UR is right?  ET must be right or these men would know it.

This is a false premise.  All these mentioned are well entrenched in their false doctrines, have big churches or big TV ministries.  This is no way indicative of being a godly  person or not, yes they may reach some, they sure are not reaching all. If they were on the real front lines, they would be unnoticed and would be in the slums, prisons, all the vile places; where the sinners hang out that they preach against.  Just compare Jesus' ministry, where was He?  He was in the fields and countryside most of the time; in the temples and synagogues, He mostly went there to sort out the Pharisees.

Based on these men's TV exposure, there is no evidence to suggest they are prayer warriors.  Rod Parsley is about the only one I know of that has an outreach to a needy country (Somalia I think) that he talks about, of the 4 preachers you mentioned.  Problem is that most folk give money expecting others to do the dirty work for them, this is not how Jesus intended it to be.  There are missionaries that are on the real front lines, living in the same conditions as the folk that they minister to, those folk are the ones that should get financial aid.

So tell your brother, a hungry Sudanese family do not have a TV let alone a satellite dish for TBN in most cases they do not have electricity.  The percentage reached via TBN as far as seekers is likely less than 0.01% of the world population.  Jesus said "Go" not "stay at home and send messages".  Look at the Apostles, what did they do? they went out to the people.  They were simple poor folk.  Your brother's heroes are all rich temple robbers.

They preach the Good News but do not bring the Good News to the the people that need it.  Even if Benny Hinn has a $7M crusade, which is more for his self image than anything else, the people he preaches to are already 90% converts so what is he actually achieving.  Take the money he spends on these crusades, and put it to use in meeting the real needs of the needy and there will be many more reached.  All your brothers heroes are part of the "bling-bling" gospel.

They do not know of UR as UR is not about just denying ET, it is about understanding the mysteries of God which does not come about by teaching of men but of the Holy Spirit.  The great teachers of our time are those that go away from the lime-light and seek God's face and get into deeper study on the scriptures.  Most Christians have a pigeon-hole theology, fill the holes once and all is satisfied.  God is a river, not a swamp. Revelation is continuous not a once-off.  Jesus told us the He would teach us, not a pastor.

Blessings

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 05:55:36 AM
...In addition to saying that ET is just, he says you simply do not understand how it is just with finite human reasoning.  He also says that you don't understand how serious it is to reject Christ. And that the seriousness of rejecting Christ makes ET just. I think my brother is saying that since the eternal God is offended, that warrants eternal punishment.

People do not reject Christ when the Father is part of the drawing process. John 6:44-45 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:44-45;&version=9;)

   

QuoteET is true because if we  take somebody who is just learning, and they read the Bible, an ET perspective is what they will come away with. And not with UR beliefs. So you see,  this is because its Bible.

This is not true, I got saved and never believed there could be a hell as taught to equal the unfathomable Love of God.  Bibles are incorrectly translated wrt to the word hell.  And no people reading the bible for the 1st time will see the Love of God shining through and see that the "ET" gnashing of teeth is directed at the Pharisees in most instances, the needy were always dealt with in Love by Jesus.  Young children do not even believe in a hell and that is w/o any biblical knowledge unless they have a brute for a natural father then maybe.

Your brother read with a carnal understanding of scripture.  Invite him here and let him test his theology and/or biblical understanding, he will be pleasantly surprised of how little he actually knows.  If he is up to the challenge.

QuoteIt says what it says and you are just trying to twist the word to mean something else because you don't like the doctrine of hell fire as presented in the word.  The reason UR people are doing what they are doing is because they don't like what the word says on this topic.

Oh we like the what the word "actually" says, we know the true meaning of hell is nothing more than the grave where we all end up, dead and buried.  Ask him why the rapture has not happened yet, then ask him why he believes a RCC invented lie.  You can read about it here (http://www.mychurch.org/blog/72821/The-Rapture-Question).

You see, your brother is blinded by the lies of the doctrines of men, all he has is fire insurance and he does not need it, no one does.

Blessings

willieH: Hi fullarmor2... :hithere: ...welcome to TM  :welcome:

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:04:36 AM
Look at all the great men of God down thru the centuries, starting with Jesus, he talked extensively about hell,

:Yeahright:

This is QUITE, ...incorrect!  JESUS used the Words HADES or GEHENNA (neither of which MEAN HELL, but are so translated) on only 7 occasions in 3.5yrs of ministry... that can HARDLY be considered as EXTENSIVE!  This type of MISinformation (that JESUS extensively spoke of "hell") is a large part of the CORRUPTION of TRADITION which the below named (supposed) "preachers of the Gospel" propose...

Here they are: \

GEHENNA (10 total uses by JESUS on 4 OCCASIONS, in 3.5yrs):

1.  Sermon on the mount Matt 5:22, 29 / Mk 9:43,45,47 (5 uses spoken to the DISCIPLES only, made on the same DAY/Occasion)
2.  Warning the Apostles whom to fear: Matt 10:28 / Luke 12:5 (2 uses spoken the the DISCIPLES only, made on the same DAY/Occasion)
3.  Upbraiding the Pharisees: Matt 23:15, 33 (2 uses spoken to the RELIGIOUS leaders on ONE Occasion)
4.  Warning against corrupting innocents with RELIGION: Matt 18:9 (1 use spoken to the DISCIPLES, ONE occasion)

HADES (4 total uses by JESUS on 3 OCCASIONS, in 3.5yrs)

1.  Capernaum exalted to heaven: Matt 11:23 / Lk 10:15 (2 uses on ONE Occasion)
2.  Telling Peter his destiny: Matt 16:18 (1 use, ONE Occasion)
3.  Parable of Rich man & Lazerus: Lk 16:23 (1 use, ONE Occasion)

Okay Fullarmor... that is IT!  Seven total mentions of any word which can be believed to be HELL, in three & a half YEARS of teaching!  That is about 2 mentions a YEAR!  You call that EXTENSIVE?  Please...  :laughing7:

I would like to ADD that the Apostle JOHN made NO (zero, zippo, nada)  MENTIONS of ANY of the 3 words in the NT which are translated HELL... Did he just forget?  Or was it just NOT worth mentioning?

Let's not forget PAUL, who wrote MOST of the NT... He did not mention HELL at all!  NOTHING!  Whatupwidat?  :mshock:

Or it is better understood, that HELL is a creation of MEN and  RELIGIOUS TRADITION, and not of the Scriptures at ALL...

A FEAR word, which is FALSELY translated from the words GEHENNA (which was a physical place) HADES (which actually means the GRAVE - see the SEPTUAGINT - Greek translation of the entire BIBLE), ...and TARTARUS (used once in the NT, and is the deepest "region" of HADES/GRAVE)

Quotemost believed in ET. Look at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, ect....   These are taking the Gosple to the world on a scale like no one else,  they are on the front lines of what God is doing in the world, you know they pray alot being such great men of God,  so why did God not let them know that ET is wrong and that UR is right?  ET must be right or these men would know it.

I have one Scripture forya Fullarmor... here it is:

Matt 24:5  For MANY shall come in My Name saying I am CHRIST, and shall <<<DECIEVE>>> ...MANY!

MANY, Fillamor, shall come in the name of CHRIST and those MANY, will DECIEVE ...MANY... I suggest to YOU, that it is these supposedly notable men you mention above are doing JUST THAT my friend...

The FEW of us that believe UR, even if it were a deception (which it IS NOT!), could hardly be considered as decieving MANY...  :dontknow:

Your own words identify the DECIEVERS, ...for THEY are the ones who qualify in number, those mentioned in Matt 24:5 above... MANY shall come in My name and <<<DECIEVE>>> ...MANY!

Peace  :newb:

In  ...willieH :gamer:

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:04:36 AM
Look at the men of God today like,  Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, ect....   These are taking the Gosple to the world on a scale like no one else,  they are on the front lines of what God is doing in the world, you know they pray alot being such great men of God,  so why did God not let them know that ET is wrong and that UR is right?  ET must be right or these men would know it.

My wife used this one on me. My response: If they're so great, why did you marry me instead of one of them? :mshock:

- byron

 :laughing7:  good one Byron!

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:31:01 AM
      You UR people are saying the same thing  certain other groups say about their false doctrine. "It takes a revelation of God to see what we are saying that it is true".   And the reason you are forced into that position is because what you UR people say is NOT Bible!
     

Armor: can you disclose to us why the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to the masses by way of parable?




Bonus question: What is the secret purpose of the will of God as declared by the Apostle St. Paul in Eph. 1?

Hi fullarmor,

Just a some quick comments on your brother's reasoning.

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 05:55:36 AM
In addition to saying that ET is just, he says you simply do not understand how it is just with finite human reasoning.

Finite human reasoning is all human beings are equpped with, at least sans the illumination of the Holy Spirit.

QuoteHe also says that you don't understand how serious it is to reject Christ. And that the seriousness of rejecting Christ makes ET just. I think my brother is saying that since the eternal God is offended, that warrants eternal punishment.

The problem with this is that it is just simply NOT biblical. The wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment. The Bible also states that Jesus tasted death for every man.

QuoteET is true because if we  take somebody who is just learning, and they read the Bible, an ET perspective is what they will come away with. And not with UR beliefs.

Hee hee! Isn't that convenient?!!! Of course, that's only true in translations that butcher the meaning of aion/aionian. AND it's only true because humanity (at least in the Western world) has been hammered with the ET doctrine for 1,500 years.

Moreover, once the truth of Jesus' salvation of the world was opened to me, I can attest (as I'm sure most people here can) that the Bible opened to me in startling new ways. God's plan of salvation is, quite literally, ALL OVER THE PLACE, repeated again and again and again, in plain words as well as in type and shadow. (Gary has a list of hundreds of verses, and it is not a complete list. For the complete list, see the Bible! ;) )

QuoteSo you see,  this is because its Bible. It says what it says and you are just trying to twist the word to mean something else because you don't like the doctrine of hell fire as presented in the word.  The reason UR people are doing what they are doing is because they don't like what the word says on this topic.

"UR people" have well-reasoned, perfectly plausible and Biblically sound reasons to deal forcefully with the arguments for the doctrine of endless torment. The same CANNOT be said for the ETists. How does your brother explain away Isaiah's prophecy that the ends of the earth will look to the Lord for salvation, every knee bowing to Him, every tongue confessing His lordship, all to the glory of God? How does he explain away Paul, who describes Jesus undoing what Adam did to humanity? And who states unequivocally that Jesus is the savior of ALL men, especiallly of those who believe?

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Peace and blessings,

Andy

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:31:01 AM
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 31, 2007, 06:50:28 PM
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

Then byron said:
I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron


I don't know if that is true or not, byron but what I look at is the word judgment.  The judgment of the Just Judge is goooood stuff!   :HeartThrob:  Whether it be past- present -future- or in that place where there is no time.

Quote from: hopeful on October 31, 2007, 08:12:55 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 31, 2007, 06:50:28 PM
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

Then byron said:
I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron


I don't know if that is true or not, byron but what I look at is the word judgment.  The judgment of the Just Judge is goooood stuff!   :HeartThrob:  Whether it be past- present -future- or in that place where there is no time.

Yes, so many people take the word judgment as a negative. I love Ps. 98:

A Song of Praise to the LORD for His Salvation and Judgment

1 Oh, sing to the LORD a new song!
        For He has done marvelous things;
        His right hand and His holy arm have gained Him the victory.
        2The LORD has made known His salvation;
        His righteousness He has revealed in the sight of the nations.
        3He has remembered His mercy and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
        All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.


        4Shout joyfully to the LORD, all the earth;
        Break forth in song, rejoice, and sing praises.
        5Sing to the LORD with the harp,
        With the harp and the sound of a psalm,
        6With trumpets and the sound of a horn;
        Shout joyfully before the LORD, the King.


        7Let the sea roar, and all its fullness,
        The world and those who dwell in it;
        8Let the rivers clap their hands;
        Let the hills be joyful together before the LORD,
        9For He is coming to judge the earth.
        With righteousness He shall judge the world,
        And the peoples with equity.

        That's clear enough!

- byron

Amen!

My  :2c:

I believe the judgement could be seen as the following:

Matthew 25:32-34 (King James Version)

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep (silver?) on his right hand, but the goats (dross?) on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

I certainly hope I'm judged to be a sheep on his right and not a goat on his left!

Proverbs 25:4
Take away the dross (goats?) from the silver (sheep?), and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.

Again,

Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat (sheep?  Silver?) into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff (goats?  dross?) with unquenchable fire.

What makes us sheep or silver and not dross or goats???

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Quote from: Peacetroll on November 01, 2007, 02:00:01 PM
My  :2c:

I believe the judgement could be seen as the following:

Matthew 25:32-34 (King James Version)

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep (silver?) on his right hand, but the goats (dross?) on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

I certainly hope I'm judged to be a sheep on his right and not a goat on his left!

Could you tell us why the Master is speaking of two clean animals, rather than clean and unclean like sheep and dogs, or sheep and swine? And, P.T., can you list the qualifications, according to the context of St. Matthew 25, for being a sheep and a goat? They would be what?

The true qualifier is Christ.

I can judge no one, but we do have indications throughout scripture as to what it takes to be a sheep (true follower of Christ).

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Faith in what?  you may ask....

Faith that Christ is who he says he is, was raised from the dead and has forgiven our sins.  And faith that he alone can overcome our weakness, our infirmnities and our faults; changing us into his likeness.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Galatians 3:5-7 (King James Version)
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Faith in Christ is what everyone of his sheep have. 

Those who hate Christ and what he stands for ostensibly are from the spirit of error, and are in danger of the second death (total annihilation of the soul/being).

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Peace in Christ.

What I asked you P.T. is the following....

QuoteCould you tell us why the Master is speaking of two clean animals, rather than clean and unclean like sheep and dogs, or sheep and swine? And, P.T., can you list the qualifications, according to the context of St. Matthew 25, for being a sheep and a goat? They would be what?

Can you tell us according to the context of the Master's words in St. Matthew 25, what qualifies a sheep and a goat? And, P.T. why does the Master of the Reconciliation speak to two clean animals, and not a clean and an unclean one?

I enjoy your questions.  I will do my best to give you my understanding and belief;

I have come to understand the clean and/or the sheep to be those who have faith in Christ, certainly they have love in their hearts. 

I have come to understand the unclean and/or the goats to be those without fiath in Christ, and without love in their hearts (evident by their fruits).

What so many fail to take into account is the Millinium and the events that take place therein.  This is the time when all who have not heard of him,...will.  And all those who have not heard and believed (or misunderstood therefore did not believe), but have love written in their hearts (and this love being evident in their  fruits), will certainly come to him.

As far as the two 'clean' animals, it depends on what you term clean.

If we observe a sheep, we see they follow their shepard wherever he goes.  If you observe a goat, you will find that it does not follow it's shepard wherever he may lead.

Perhaps it is this particular nature of these animals  that Christ is using as a metaphor to differentiate between those who love evil and self and those who love goodness and God.

One thing I do know is that in the context of the Matthew 25 verse, the goats are unacceptable to him and the sheep are acceptable.  And what is it we must do to be acceptable to Jesus?

Believe in him and do our best to do as he asked us.  Our faith in Christ is our righteousness.  Our love for him is our hope and our gift from God.

I would enjoy your explanation.  Do you consider the goats flesh?  And the sheep the soul?  Im very curious as to your understanding on this matter.

Peace in Christ.

Quote from: Peacetroll on November 01, 2007, 06:09:45 PM
I enjoy your questions.  I will do my best to give you my understanding and belief;

I have come to understand the clean and/or the sheep to be those who have faith in Christ, certainly they have love in their hearts. 

I have come to understand the unclean and/or the goats to be those without fiath in Christ, and without love in their hearts (evident by their fruits).

P.T. you will find that the Old Covenant Scriptures are the foundation upon which rests the Master of the Reconciliation's further words. Both sheep and goats are clean animals, and as such addressed by the Master. Do you know that the early Christian catacombs had the Master carrying a goat upon His ample shoulder? Why?

And according to the context of our Master's words in St. Matt. 25, there are qualifications for both sheep and goats. Is love in their hearts one of them? Is faith in Christ one of them? What exactly qualifies a sheep and a goat?

QuoteAnd what is it we must do to be acceptable to Jesus?

Believe in him and do our best to do as he asked us.

Now, my friend, there is nowhere in the context that speaks of believing in Him. Not that belief in the Saviour of all mankind is not a foundational aspect of partaking of His Life. But this is simply not in the context of the only passage of Scripture mentioned by none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, regarding sheep and goats and aionios kolasis and aionios zoe. Please list for us what qualifies a 1. sheep and 2. a goat?

It was a sheep.

It also matches this following scripture:

Luke 15:4
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

It was a sheep.

And we must analyse the parable to the fullest.  We should also see similar deeper meanings throughout (which we do):

Example: 

Tree of Life....Tree of Knowledge

Light.....Darkness.

Love.....Wrath

Life....Death

Clean...Unclean.

Rod.....Sword.

The Righteous....The Wicked.

Those who Love....Those who oppress.

Faith.....No Faith.

Sons of the Father......Sons of Satan.

Wheat.....Darnel.

Sheep.....Goats

Spirit of Truth....Spirit of Error.

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

2yrs and counting brother Dustprophet, and your message of defeat and supposed Divine PARTIALITY continues...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Peacetroll on November 01, 2007, 06:43:09 PM
It was a sheep.

It also matches this following scripture:

Luke 15:4
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

It was a sheep.

And we must analyse the parable to the fullest.  We should also see similar deeper meanings throughout (which we do):

Example: 

Tree of Life....Tree of Knowledge

We all eat from the the TOK first (natural) and then the TOL (spiritual)

QuoteLight.....Darkness.

We are ALL children of darkness, until GOD brings LIGHT into our souls... not of our doing...

QuoteLove.....Wrath

We all suffer WRATH in THIS LIFE, before we recieve the GLORY of LOVE's Victory in the next...

QuoteLife....Death

ALL are appointed to DIE (physically) PT, ...then be made ALIVE (spiritually)...IN CHRIST...

QuoteClean...Unclean.

ALL are unclean in the natural, before being CLEANSED in the SPIRITUAL...

QuoteThe Righteous....The Wicked.

ALL are of wickedness, prior to CONVERSION to righteousness...

QuoteThose who Love....Those who oppress.

ALL are guilty of oppressions at one time or another, ALL shall be made PERFECT in LOVE for LOVE NEVER FAILS...

QuoteFaith.....No Faith.

No one has FAITH, until it is GIVEN from above!

QuoteSons of the Father......Sons of Satan.

ALL are CHILDREN disobedience (adversity/satan), before becoming the CHILDREN of YHVH...

QuoteWheat.....Darnel.

There is HARVEST in ALL lives (love redeemed), there is DESTRUCTION (disobedience destroyed) in ALL LIVES...

QuoteSheep.....Goats

Your moments, and mine... examples of obedience and love, examples of disobedience and sin...

QuoteSpirit of Truth....Spirit of Error.

Again, both these commodities are found in ALL for NO ONE knows ALL TRUTH... If you dont KNOW a given TRUTH, you KNOW a given, ERROR...

All you name above are creations of GOD... and ALL are under His control and supervision, and ALL are contributors to CORRECTION and ultimately to VICTORY...

So which are YOU brother PT?  Sheep ("true follower") or Goat ("untrue follower") (as if we have to guess eh?  :laughing7:)

It is always interesting to me, how some (such as yourself) can propose GOD as choosing this one, or that one, instead of what SCRIPTURE notes in at least FOUR PLACES that He is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS... and conveniently number themselves amongst the SHEEP,  while noting that it s___ks to be one of the UNCHOSEN, ...GOATS... :rolleye:

With a spiritual eye, hopefully one day, you shall see the "SHEEP" and "GOATS", "WHEAT" and "TARES" are the moments of the lives of ALL MEN... and the only moments worth REDEEMING are those that are done IN CHRIST...  :winkgrin:

Peace...  :HeartThrob:

In  ...willieH :gamer:

Willie.

So the wheat and darnel, goats and sheep are just moments in our lives.

Ok.

God chooses whom he chooses.

Blessed is the person whom the lord will not impute sin.

Many are called, but few are chosen.

The road to destruction is wide and many enter therein, but the road to salvation (for the soul), is narrow and few there be that find it.

I suppose we are all led to believe as the author deams appropriate (not of our doing , but the Lords).

I reckon we can agree to disagree.

Peace is in believing Christ Jesus over all others.

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Wille Man..
matey I must put this in because for what ever reason i get this image of ya when i read ya post..
so forgive me first :laughing7:


(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/divers/diver025.gif)


yo Peacetroll...thats it :thumbsup:
Willie.

So the wheat and darnel, goats and sheep are just moments in our lives.

Ok. :thumbsup:

Otherwise Willie conclusion you can not understand me thinks his point is shown



With a spiritual eye, hopefully one day, you shall see the "SHEEP" and "GOATS", "WHEAT" and "TARES" are the moments of the lives of ALL MEN... and the only moments worth REDEEMING are those that are done IN CHRIST

but No worries matey....

Tis how I see it also...

Peace to you.

Blessings
Taffy.

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 03:10:43 PM
Willie.

So the wheat and darnel, goats and sheep are just moments in our lives.

Ok.

ALL that men do are placed upon the ONLY foundation that IS... (1 Cor 3:11-15)

What we place upon that foundation are OUR LIVES moment by moment... either those moments are IN CHRIST (Gold, silver, precious stones - noncombustible), or they are NOT (wood, hay, stubble - combustible) but by the conclusion, ALL shall be saved, ... (MOST) even so as BY FIRE!

Quote from: PTGod chooses whom he chooses.

This is NOT concerning Salvation... for CHRIST took AWAY, the SIN of the WORLD PT... He chooses whom He chooses, according to the accomplishment and completion of HIS PURPOSE... not according to the merit one has over another, due to obedience or disobedience... for of ourselves PT, ...our hearts are DESPARATELY WICKED (Jer 17:9), and it takes HIS WORK to overcome this, ...NOT OURS... (Eph 2:8-9)

Quote from: PTBlessed is the person whom the lord will not impute sin.

2 Cor 5:19 to wit, GOD was IN CHRIST, ...RECONCILING the WORLD unto Himself, ...NOT IMPUTING... their TRESPASSES unto them, and hath committed unto us, the WORD of RECONCILIATION.

Quote from: PTMany are called, but few are chosen.

:laughing7:  This is why MOST MEN do NOT SEE or HEAR... for they are PURPOSELY BLINDED and DEAFENED... (Rom 9:16 / Jer 18:4 / Jer 29:14)

GOD has decided we should be blind or deaf, and has SENT us into the CAPTIVITY of ADVERSITY to Himself, PURPOSELY... that we might gain the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

GOD chooses ALL THINGS to be as they are, brother PT...

For example:  none of us has ANY SAY in "choosing" the era we are born in, the city, country, ...or the parents, siblings, race, family, etc.. of the LIFE we now experience... NONE of the parameters of THIS LIFE is in our hands... we are DEALT LIFE, when and where HE CHOOSES... it is NO DIFFERENT concerning the pathway to the NEXT LIFE... we DO NOT choose ANY of its parameters either, ...He does!

I nor YOU were CHOSEN to be PETER... PETER was chosen to be PETER... Why?  Because GOD has a purpose and HE is WORKING out that PURPOSE... neither YOU nor I nor PETER, have any part in DIRECTING the COURSE of that PURPOSE... and neither YOU nor I nor PETER shall have any CREDIT for it... it shall be HIS and HIS ALONE!  The LIFEGIVER, chooses when LIFE is GIVEN...  YOU and I and PETER, all have our parts in the process of SALVATION according to each of our individual places within the accomplishment of HIS PURPOSE!

Quote from: PTThe road to destruction is wide and many enter therein, but the road to salvation (for the soul), is narrow and few there be that find it.

The verse you quote translates the word APOLLUMI... as DESTRUCTION... this is the VERY SAME WORD translated as LOST, in the Parables of the LOST coin, LOST son, LOST ...sheep!  (Luke 15) ALL the (LOST/Destroyed) subjects in these Parables were EVENTUALLY FOUND PT...  Look it up brother!  :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: PTI suppose we are all led to believe as the author deams appropriate (not of our doing , but the Lords).

GOD is SOVEREIGN my friend... which means HE is IN CONTROL of ALL (not just SOME) THINGS... The Scripture states:

(1 Cor 12:3) Wherefore I give you to UNDERSTAND, that NO MAN speaking BY the SPIRIT of GOD, calleth JESUS accursed, and NO MAN CAN SAY that JESUS CHRIST is the LORD, but BY the HOLY GHOST. 

This verse states that the ability to CONFESS JESUS CHRIST, can only be manifest in a MAN, ...BY... the Holy Spirit...

(Matt 10:32)  WHOSOEVER shall CONFESS Me BEFORE Men, him will I CONFESS before My Father which is in heaven

This verse states that ANYONE who makes such a CONFESSION, will be CONFESSED for by CHRIST... to GOD...

(Phil 2:11) and EVERY TONGUE should CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord to the GLORY of GOD the Father

This verse leaves out NO ONE Peacetroll... EVERY TONGUE means EVERY TONGUE, not SOME TONGUES or FEW TONGUES or MANY TONGUES, but E-V-E-R-Y TONGUE!

Finally:

(Matt 10:39) He that FINDETH his life, shall LOSE it, and he that LOSETH his life for MY SAKE, shall FIND IT...

This verse is stating that as long as your TONGUE holds its CONFESSION of CHRIST as LORD, your life is LOST... but once your TONGUE (enabled BY the Holy Ghost), CONFESSES Him as LORD, you shall FIND IT!

We remain LOST until we are FOUND Peacetroll... One that is FOUND does NOT, ...FIND him/herself... CHRIST is LOOKING for us, not the other way around!  He is the SHEPHERD in SEARCH of the SHEEP... He does the calling, He does the drawing, He does the saving... and HE, ...gets the CREDIT for it when it is accomplished!

It is SO SIMPLE, that the complex fail to see it...  :dontknow:

Quote from: PTI reckon we can agree to disagree.

That's fine brother... I value YOU with the Heart of CHRIST without RESPECT of PERSONS, for it is HIS HEART in which we all are found... and HIS HEART has NO RESPECT of PERSONS... He LOVES ALL...

Quote from: PTPeace is in believing Christ Jesus over all others.

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

I completely agree with your statement and the verses noted... However, this process is done IN DUE TIME, for each individual... and ONE by ONE, we come (by the time of HIS CALLING, CHOICE and DECISION) ...to the FOOT of the CROSS... (John 6:44 & 65 / John 12:32)

One thing to consider brother Peacetroll as you deliver your particular version of the Gospel of (incomplete) Partiality... Noting GOD as a RESPECTER of PERSONS, by "choosing one (wheat) over another (darnel)"... (no offense intended)

CHRIST was even concerned that FRAGMENTS of FOOD should not be LOST (Apollumi/destroyed)... (John 6:12),  How much MORE, the SOULS of MEN, who are COMPLETELY helpless to save themselves...  :dontknow:

Peace...  :HeartThrob:

In  ...willieH :gamer:

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 31, 2007, 06:50:28 PM

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:31:01 AM
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron

Hey, Byron. I checked on it. It appears to me that the greek word behind "after" is "meta".

Hebrews 9:27  And <kai> as <kata> <hosos> it is appointed <apokeimai> unto men <anthropos> once <hapax> to die <apothnesko>, but <de> after <meta> this <touto> the judgment <krisis>:

3326. meta
meta meta met-ah'

a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; "amid" (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive association, or accusative succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between 575 or 1537 and 1519 or 4314; less intimate than 1722 and less close than 4862):--after(-ward), X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-)on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-)to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.

willieH: Hi brother T... :hithere:

Quote from: Taffy on November 02, 2007, 05:57:25 PM
Wille Man..
matey I must put this in because for what ever reason i get this image of ya when i read ya post..
so forgive me first :laughing7:


(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/divers/diver025.gif)

Okay Graham,  :JCThink: ...who gave you this picture of me?  :prankster:  :pointlaugh:

Peace...  :HeartThrob:

In  ...willieH :gamer:

PS... I thought I burned all the copies!  :grin: :laughing7: :laughhand:

Jesus Christ is God and Lord.

Blessed are those who believe this and have not seen him in person.

Spiritual eyes?

No one calls him God and Lord without the spirit of truth.

Again, we shall agree to disagree on the points given.

Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 10:50:22 PM
Jesus Christ is God and Lord.

Blessed are those who believe this and have not seen him in person.

Spiritual eyes?

No one calls him God and Lord without the spirit of truth.

Again, we shall agree to disagree on the points given.

Again, no problem widat, dude...  :laughing7: 

Because one has come to know CHRIST, does not equate that one to KNOW it ALL eh?  The Revelation of JESUS CHRIST is LIFE-LONG... from the ALPHA to the OMEGA of each life...

I have sufficiently noted my position with supporting Scriptures... Let the readers, by the Spirit of GOD, be led to the elements of truth...  :dontknow:

Always keeping in mind that no one, "knows-it-all"...  :happygrin:

Peace...  :HeartThrob:

In  ...willieH :gamer:

Quote from: 1424241 on November 02, 2007, 09:20:59 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 31, 2007, 06:50:28 PM

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:31:01 AM
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron

Hey, Byron. I checked on it. It appears to me that the greek word behind "after" is "meta".

Hebrews 9:27  And <kai> as <kata> <hosos> it is appointed <apokeimai> unto men <anthropos> once <hapax> to die <apothnesko>, but <de> after <meta> this <touto> the judgment <krisis>:

3326. meta
meta meta met-ah'

a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; "amid" (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive association, or accusative succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between 575 or 1537 and 1519 or 4314; less intimate than 1722 and less close than 4862):--after(-ward), X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-)on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-)to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.

Thanks for looking that up!
  - byron

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 04, 2007, 12:47:34 AM

Quote from: 1424241 on November 02, 2007, 09:20:59 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 31, 2007, 06:50:28 PM

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:31:01 AM
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron

Hey, Byron. I checked on it. It appears to me that the greek word behind "after" is "meta".

Hebrews 9:27  And <kai> as <kata> <hosos> it is appointed <apokeimai> unto men <anthropos> once <hapax> to die <apothnesko>, but <de> after <meta> this <touto> the judgment <krisis>:

3326. meta
meta meta met-ah'

a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; "amid" (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive association, or accusative succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between 575 or 1537 and 1519 or 4314; less intimate than 1722 and less close than 4862):--after(-ward), X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-)on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-)to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.

Thanks for looking that up!
  - byron

What is first specified is "denoting accompaniment" which could yield:  "...reserved to the  (hu)men to be dying once, yet accompanying this:  judging..."  With the word  "metanoia" (poorly represented by the English "repent") it represents change, as, "after mind" or "change mind."  The KJV translated it "with" 346 times but "after" only 95 times according to A. E. Knoch's concordance.  Verse 28 goes on to equate this "death and judging" with Jesus' death 1.) for sins and to be seen 2.) apart from sin unto salvation (unto those awaiting Him.)

Quote from: reFORMer on November 04, 2007, 05:19:43 AM

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 04, 2007, 12:47:34 AM

Quote from: 1424241 on November 02, 2007, 09:20:59 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 31, 2007, 06:50:28 PM

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:31:01 AM
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron

Hey, Byron. I checked on it. It appears to me that the greek word behind "after" is "meta".

Hebrews 9:27  And <kai> as <kata> <hosos> it is appointed <apokeimai> unto men <anthropos> once <hapax> to die <apothnesko>, but <de> after <meta> this <touto> the judgment <krisis>:

3326. meta
meta meta met-ah'

a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; "amid" (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive association, or accusative succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between 575 or 1537 and 1519 or 4314; less intimate than 1722 and less close than 4862):--after(-ward), X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-)on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-)to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.

Thanks for looking that up!
  - byron

What is first specified is "denoting accompaniment" which could yield:  "...reserved to the  (hu)men to be dying once, yet accompanying this:  judging..."  With the word  "metanoia" (poorly represented by the English "repent") it represents change, as, "after mind" or "change mind."  The KJV translated it "with" 346 times but "after" only 95 times according to A. E. Knoch's concordance.  Verse 28 goes on to equate this "death and judging" with Jesus' death 1.) for sins and to be seen 2.) apart from sin unto salvation (unto those awaiting Him.)

Interesting.

Quote from: reFORMer on November 04, 2007, 05:19:43 AM

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 04, 2007, 12:47:34 AM

Quote from: 1424241 on November 02, 2007, 09:20:59 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 31, 2007, 06:50:28 PM

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:31:01 AM
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. 

I just read somewhere that the word 'after' in this passage is not in the original text. Haven't had time to chech it - does anybody know if that's true?
  - byron

Hey, Byron. I checked on it. It appears to me that the greek word behind "after" is "meta".

Hebrews 9:27  And <kai> as <kata> <hosos> it is appointed <apokeimai> unto men <anthropos> once <hapax> to die <apothnesko>, but <de> after <meta> this <touto> the judgment <krisis>:

3326. meta
meta meta met-ah'

a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; "amid" (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive association, or accusative succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between 575 or 1537 and 1519 or 4314; less intimate than 1722 and less close than 4862):--after(-ward), X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-)on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-)to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.

Thanks for looking that up!
  - byron

What is first specified is "denoting accompaniment" which could yield:  "...reserved to the  (hu)men to be dying once, yet accompanying this:  judging..."  With the word  "metanoia" (poorly represented by the English "repent") it represents change, as, "after mind" or "change mind."  The KJV translated it "with" 346 times but "after" only 95 times according to A. E. Knoch's concordance.  Verse 28 goes on to equate this "death and judging" with Jesus' death 1.) for sins and to be seen 2.) apart from sin unto salvation (unto those awaiting Him.)

Thanks for clarifying, I didn't have time to comment but this is an ETers mainstay scripture and it is interesting how some pull this totally out of context to make it mean something different than what it does...
  - b

I still don't see what support it gives ET even if all the words mean exactly what they are thought to mean today. Judgement is not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It's justice. Judgement would give a just punishment for a crime, and there is not enough time in our short lives to commit a crime that deserves a never-ending punishment. So even ifit is appointed unto men once to die and then judgement, you have to ask yourself... "what comes after the judgement?"

I'm still trying to understand Heb 9:27-28...while 27 could be read as judging is in dying it might unbalance the symetry with 28...

It's the only reference I can remember used as a pretence of Biblical support to the doctrine God loves you until you die; and, that death seals your fate or destiny.  Whatever 9:27-28 says, that's nowhere close!  That is nowhere taught in the Bible!  This is why I'm quoting myself in the following.  It's not necessarily directly Universal Reconciliation, but it's related.  Though we sometimes come to feel otherwise, with God there's never NO hope and that's true for everybody.  I get fed up with hearing so much of, "What my Pastor or a televangelist told me, I take that as absolutly true, part of God's revelation," when it should be in the trash.  There's more but it's late and perhaps wanders too far from whatever we're supposed to be talking about.

     Something Jesus said was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (in John 11:25-26)  After Jesus died on the cross Peter says He preached to the spirits in prison that had been disobedient in the days of Noah.  "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient (no longer disobedient means their prison was working), when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1 Pet 3:18-20)  It is definitely taught by God's own word that:  "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6)

     In the book of Jonah in the Bible it says after Jonah died and went to hell he prayed and God saved him.  Men made up the idea that God loves you until you die.  The gospel is "Christ died for our sins" and the Bible did not add "so we could have a chance to accept Him."  That others would benefit from faith in the gospel we do what we can to get them to believe. (cf., 2 Cor 5:18-20 KJV)

willieH: Hi fullarmor... :hithere:

Quote from: fullarmor2 on October 30, 2007, 06:31:01 AM
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment.   Thats a Bible verse and it proves that there is no chance to be saved after death.  When a person dies thats it. Its judgment time. And you either got it or you don't.
      You UR people are saying the same thing  certain other groups say about their false doctrine. "It takes a revelation of God to see what we are saying that it is true".   And the reason you are forced into that position is because what you UR people say is NOT Bible!
       UR people twist the word of God and make it mean what they want it to. ET people simply let the Bible say what it says.

Oh really?  :mshock:  "Twisting" ya say?  :Chinscratch:

hmmm... well, here's a few forya "fullarmor"... let's see what YOU THINK they SAY:

(1 Tim 4:9-10) This is a FAITHFUL SAYING and WORTHY of ALL ACCEPTATION:  for therefore we both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the LIVING God, who ...IS... the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, ...ESPECIALLY, those that BELIEVE...

It will be interesting to see how YOU might "TWIST" these 2 verses to SAY ...OTHER... than WHAT they, ...SAY!

For it is quite plain, that they say:

1. The "saying" to follow is FAITHFUL (full of FAITH)
2. they say: it is WORTHY of ALL ACCEPTATION (worthy to be accepted by ALL)
3. They say: GOD ...IS... the SAVIOR of ALL MEN (not might be or could be, or should be)
4. They say: ESPECIALLY, those that BELIEVE (but not ONLY or, EXCLUSIVELY)

Let's see what YOU have to say that "they say" brother... when you're done "dealing" these two, we'll give you a few more "pretzel verses"! (there are over 150, so you might bring a lunch!)

(Just so you are able to get a "head start" so you can begin thinking about it early, we'll see what you think these "say": 1 John 4:14... then Rom 5:18-20... then 1 Tim 2:3-6... then 1 Cor 15:22...)  :wink3:

Peace...   :boogie:

In  ...willieH   :drummer: