Fear Vs Horror

[peacemaker]

A rhetorical question implies that the answer is obvious. A kind of question that does not actually need to be answered. Rather, it is used for persuasive effect without the expectation or requirement of a lengthy response, putting the emphasis on a supposed truth by also stating the opposite.

"Have you ever been caught stealing?"

Yes or No, although it matters not, how you answer this question.

Actually this isn't about that at all.  Given your example the point would be if you steal knowing full well you shouldn't have, what difference would it make?

I'll even use myself as an example.   I used to smoke and I will not make the case as "religious" people do that smoking is a sin.  However for me it would be, there are factors in my life that tell me it would be in complete disobedience of what God has given me to start smoking again. 

Regardless of what people think about Free Will or not having any, I know that I could go to the store get a pack of Cigs and start puffing away if I wanted to.  But I do fear the turmoil it would bring into my life if I did so. That temptation at times is there occasionally, but due to what I just said it is actually very easy to refrain from smoking and I am glad for it.

This is the kind of fear that I think is scriptural and healthy to teach as believers.

The one who smokes is not to regard with contempt the non-smoker, and the one who does not smoke is not to judge the one who smokes, for God has accepted him. We are neither the worse if we smoke, nor the better if we do not, but each must be fully convinced in his own mind. Although I would refrain from smoking, not desiring that you stumble. Thus, I do not see fear as the element, rather, it is that of respect. I do not abstain from stealing because of fear, however, I do understand your point which makes a difference to you, and your health.

"The right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment and we live with the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong."

peacemaker

[jabcat]

There's also the consideration of not destroying the temple.  IMO, that's not a religious consideration, but a scriptural one.

I personally struggle daily with that one with regard to food - types and how much.

I understand the "eat or not eat" concept per Paul to have specifically been about eating food in the temple that had been sacrificed to idols - then by extension, the lesson being regarding things that may harm the conscience and thus be sin - rather than partaking of things known to be harmful to the body and thus destroying the temple [smoking, over-eating, substance abuse, etc].

As far as the fear part - "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."

Anyone have a good interpretation/insight into this verse, i.e., "God destroying him"?  That sounds pretty ominous to me.  Simply reaping what we sow, or a more active punishment than that?

[reFORMer]

There's also the consideration of not destroying the temple.  IMO, that's not a religious consideration, but a scriptural one.

I personally struggle daily with that one with regard to food - types and how much.

I understand the "eat or not eat" concept per Paul to have specifically been about eating food in the temple that had been sacrificed to idols - then by extension, the lesson being regarding things that may harm the conscience and thus be sin - rather than partaking of things known to be harmful to the body and thus destroying the temple [smoking, over-eating, substance abuse, etc].

As far as the fear part - "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."

Anyone have a good interpretation/insight into this verse, i.e., "God destroying him"?  That sounds pretty ominous to me.  Simply reaping what we sow, or a more active punishment than that?

Matthew 15:1-20 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
1 Then, coming to Jesus from Jerusalem are Pharisees and scribes, saying,
2 "Wherefore are your disciples transgressing the tradition of the elders? For they are not washing their hands whenever they may be eating bread."
3 Now He, answering, said to them, "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor father and mother,' and, 'He who is saying aught that is evil of father or mother, let him decease in death.'
5 Yet you are saying that 'Whoever may be saying to father or mother, "An approach present is whatsoever you may be benefited by me,"
6 by no means shall he be honoring his father.' And you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition.
7 Hypocrites! Ideally Isaiah prophesies concerning you, saying,
8 This people with their lips is honoring Me, Yet their heart is away at a distance from Me.
9 Yet in vain are they revering Me, Teaching for teachings the directions of men."
10 And, calling the throng to Him, He said to them, "Hear and understand!
11 Not that which is entering into the mouth is contaminating a man, but that which is going out of the mouth, this is contaminating a man."
12 Then, approaching, the disciples said to Him, "Are you aware that the Pharisees, at hearing the word, are snared?"
13 Now He, answering, said, "Every plant which is not planted by My heavenly Father shall be uprooted.
14 Leave them! Blind guides are they of the blind! Now if the blind should be guiding the blind, both shall be falling into a pit."
15 Now, answering, Peter said to Him, "Decipher for us the parable."
16 Yet He said, "Are you also unintelligent at this point?
17 Not as yet are you apprehending that everything that is going into the mouth is becoming the contents of the bowels, and is being evacuated into the latrine?
18 Now those things going out of the mouth, out of the heart are coming, and those things are contaminating a man.
19 For out of the heart are coming wicked reasonings, murders, adulteries, prostitutions, thefts, false testimonies, calumnies.
20 These are those which are contaminating a man. Now to be eating with unwashed hands is not contaminating a man."

[reFORMer]

The one who smokes is not to regard with contempt the non-smoker, and the one who does not smoke is not to judge the one who smokes, for God has accepted him. We are neither the worse if we smoke, nor the better if we do not, but each must be fully convinced in his own mind. Although I would refrain from smoking, not desiring that you stumble. Thus, I do not see fear as the element, rather, it is that of respect. I do not abstain from stealing because of fear, however, I do understand your point which makes a difference to you, and your health.

"The right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment and we live with the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong."

peacemaker

What I found is the Eclessia is in such disarray that the arguement about not offending others' conscience is little more than an abstraction twice removed.  We little discern the many-membered body and seldom are in "fellowship" (koinia) walking together, every member participating as the body of Christ.  It has been replaced with an unbiblical elite priesthood who function for us.  As a result we mostly live private "Adamic" lives that hardly impinge on one-another enough to bless or offend.

Additionally, I've found by experience (as a reluctant EX-smoker) that those who are offended tend to stay that way no matter what you do or do not do.

Still, that is a good point well expressed peacemaker!

[Paul Hazelwood]

The issue of smoking was a personal example,  which is why I pointed out that I was not making the case about smoking specifically in comparison to "others", so I will not argue about it one way or the other.

It was building upon what rosered said about what is given to us.   However with that said I know my life is better for not smoking but that does not make me more righteous, but it doesn't change that I live a healthier life no matter what anyone wants to try to say about it.  

If someone dies of lung cancer the argument is often to redirect the facts and point out someone who smoked for 50 years and didn't die of lung cancer or emphysema.

My aunt suffered from severe allergy attacks as long as I can remember, she did not smoke, my uncle did and smoked in the house, he died of emphysema, and my aunt is living now in a smoke free house has not had an allergy attack since shortly after that.  Oh praise the Lord someone might say (by the same believing people who talked about how baaaad old Uncle was for smoking), well, this is an example of how poor religion actually is.

I'm leading up to something most may not expect, my aunt said she would gladly have her allergy attacks back if my uncle was still alive to be with her.

I digressed a little from the topic to point out that this is not about judging specific acts or habits and painting a picture of anyone who does them or doesn't do them.  My aunt learned the hard way that there are more important things than walking around the earth all pious about what we do not do that others do do.  It is about personal reflection of what we do with what God gives us, if people feel guilty or do not like a message of our accountability to God take it up with the man who wrote the warnings.


Some can and have in so many words have minimized my uncles death and my Aunts love for her husband by pointing out that now my aunt is not suffering and how wonderful it is.  

Now, people can say all they want,  these people are believers,  and they do not fear how those words are careless and pious and religious poop and look at the result.

[peacemaker]

Nothing personal, but the Scriptures speak more about fear not and that of having reverence.

"For God has not given us a Spirit of fear, but that of power, love, and self control."

I have never held my daughters' captive through the fear of punishment for doing wrong, rather it was by the power of love and discipline in the form of guidance, which developed a reverence for their father. Thus, it was their desire to be pleasing, loving, as they were loved.

"Giving and receiving both require open hands."

However, I do agree that what the worldly church teaches is horrifying, beyond that of fear itself. And that jumping out of a perfectly good airplane can be a frightening experience for many, especially the first step. But there is a certain reverence for the parachute, whether one is timid, or not.

peacemaker

[Paul Hazelwood]

None taken, not every instance of a translated word fear carries the definition of awe or respect, one has to look to see, you dont have to take my word for it.

I never had to teach my kids to fear me in the first place, I do not need them to love me or respect me to teach them about running out into thr street and getting maimed or killed by traffic.

[jabcat]

James, do you think Jesus was saying that if I'm a glutton, poking a dozen Twinkies, a gallon of ice cream, and a whole chocolate pie in my face night after night, eating myself up to 500 pounds - having diabetes, heart disease, and killing myself 20 years early, that that's not defiling myself (destroying the temple)?  I somehow doubt that's what you believe, but the scriptures you posted (in isolation from full context) seem to indicate that as your response - so would you please clarify how you think all that fits together in context?  Wasn't Jesus addressing one aspect, that of the condition of the heart?  Yet there is also clear scriptures about not doing things that are harmful to the body/temple - and many of those are taken in by the mouth.....thoughts?

Also, I asked if anyone had any insight to "God will destroy" that man that destroys the temple...that's a troublesome verse for me....anyone have anything helpful with that?

Then we have "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"....... :scratchhead:

Thanks, James.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Also, I asked if anyone had any insight to "God will destroy" that man that destroys the temple...that's a troublesome verse for me....anyone have anything helpful with that?

Then we have "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"....... :scratchhead:

Thanks, James.

That is a good point James, from the life I have lived I certainly should eat better, while my physical health has not deteriorated I have bad teeth and am paying the price.

How I see things is that the idea of the consequenses of willfully doing things we know we shouldn't is apart from condemnation.


For instance, I was raised in the religious environment that would imply that if I drink alcoholic beverages for any reason I am in a position to have my faith and salvation questioned.

Again, I do not want to detract from the point by talking about alcoholic drinks I am pointing
out that for me personally that while it is easy for me not to drink for the same reasonings as smoking, if I DID start back up, God would destroy me in the sense that he is not going to protect me from the consequenses that I know will result for me if I started again.

This is separate from being condemned to hell or to some misery that Jesus would be unable to deliver me from.  But as much as I agree with  the verses of love and peace and no fear, we cannot ignore the ones that speak of the opposite.

What we can learn is why I chose the topic I did, I believe there can be a healthy fear as opposed to not doing something based upon a guilt ridden horror that men will apply to one another to try to get them to behave to their liking.


Hitler may indeed by saved as many in UR agree, but I know for a fact, I do not want to be him or any concentration prison gaurd, or some ethnic cleanser in rwanda when it comes to having to account for ones life.   I do not have a horror based outloook to my own life, but I know I will account for all I do one day.   Others can see and choose how they want to live, as for me I try to be better everyday for various reason, one is that I want to learn how to love like Jesus, knowing that I do not, I try to be better each day in order to make my day of accounting better if at all possible. 

That is not living "in" horror, it is living in the reality of scripture. 

[jabcat]

Good post Paul, makes a lot of sense to me.  Thanks.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi James...  :cloud9:

There's also the consideration of not destroying the temple.  IMO, that's not a religious consideration, but a scriptural one.

I personally struggle daily with that one with regard to food - types and how much.

I understand the "eat or not eat" concept per Paul to have specifically been about eating food in the temple that had been sacrificed to idols - then by extension, the lesson being regarding things that may harm the conscience and thus be sin - rather than partaking of things known to be harmful to the body and thus destroying the temple [smoking, over-eating, substance abuse, etc].

As far as the fear part - "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."

Anyone have a good interpretation/insight into this verse, i.e., "God destroying him"?  That sounds pretty ominous to me.  Simply reaping what we sow, or a more active punishment than that?

Every "man" shall find DESTRUCTION at the hand of God... for...

The "man" that defiles the temple is the CARNAL man in each of us... for it is NOT that which enters the man (i.e. smoking, drinking, eating, etc), it is what COMES OUT of the man that defiles the man (thoughts, words and actions which are contrary to the WORD of TRUTH)... Matt 15:11 -- Mark 7:20

The products of DISOBEDIENCE which are found in the CARNALITY of the unconverted MIND, is the object of DIVINE destruction... not the MAN himself -- 1 Cor 3:15

God is about DESTROYING that which is contrary to His WORD and His Command, ...and that is the BONDAGE from which He delivers His Children...

When will His CHILDREN get into their spirits, that He LOVES His Children?  And preach THAT LOVE to the WORLD?  Instead of religiously inventing various HORRORS to preach to them?   :sigh:

The "preachers" (I use the term loosely) of the WORD are WAY more generally immersed in promoting via their communications,  HORROR and PUNISHMENT, than in promoting LOVE, PEACE and FORGIVENESS!

The "message" (I use the term loosely) that is most often brought to the WORLD that God so LOVES, is a --- "if you do this (of YOUR doing), God will do that TO YOU"... thereby FALSELY teaching to the WORLD, that it is "YOU" which dictates (by your "doings") to GOD and thereby causing HIM to "react" to YOU, ...rather than preaching the TRUTH which notes that ...HE is the one IN CONTROL, of ALL THINGS, as Scripture notes Him to be -- Eph 1:11

His LOVE -- 1 Cor 13 -- is filled with PEACE and GRACE, which are ALL GREATER than ANY "SIN" -- Rom 5:20 -- or ANY "FEAR" -- 1 John 4:18 

And that it is "SIN and (its running partner), FEAR", are that which LOVE is actively CASTING OUT -- NOW -- John 12:31  -- Isaiah 26:9

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

1 John 3:
11 For this is the message which you hear from the beginning!

Bless you willieH.

[willieH]

Hitler may indeed by saved as many in UR agree, but I know for a fact, I do not want to be him or any concentration prison gaurd, or some ethnic cleanser in rwanda when it comes to having to account for ones life.   I do not have a horror based outloook to my own life, but I know I will account for all I do one day.   Others can see and choose how they want to live, as for me I try to be better everyday for various reason, one is that I want to learn how to love like Jesus, knowing that I do not, I try to be better each day in order to make my day of accounting better if at all possible. 

That is not living "in" horror, it is living in the reality of scripture. 

The above, is a matter of opinion... upon which no Scriptural basis has been presented to found it...  :dontknow:

There is no "day of accounting"... we are IN the DAY of YHVH in which ALL GENERATIONS -- appear! -- Gen 2:4

ALL the generations and ALL they do, appear in the DAY of YHVH, which is the "when" in which account is given, ...as it occurs...

The "perception" that one gives "account" of the summary of ones life, upon its completion, is a view commonly held by many,  ...instead of "NOW" --- GIVING account DURING said life... Which is Scriptural -- John 12:31 

God does NOT place us here, and then REACT to what "we do" at the conclusion of our lives...  He has DECLARED (via His Foreknowledge of them) ALL THINGS... and ALL THINGS shall find themselves manifesting according to that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 4:17

For ALL THINGS are MADE by the WORD -- John 1:3 -- (which is utilized to "DECLARE"), to include ALL content/manifestations proceeding from THAT which is "MADE" which are WORKED by the WORD -- Eph 1:11

He is about placing us here as parts of HIS SPECIFIC PURPOSE... and in that, do we "give account" as we REAP what we SOW...  which is HIM WORKING ALL (not just some) THINGS --- which is SCRIPTURAL -- Eph 1:11

If one has been ordained to walk in RIGHTEOUSNESS, he/she shall do so as is noted by Scripture -- Eph 2:10

If GOD has ordained one to WALK in RIGHTEOUSNESS, then that one, shall NOT do otherwise.  :dontknow:

Nothing to FEARFULLY dread as we make the mistakes we make... for LOVE does the OPPOSITE of IMPOSING FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 --  Rather, LOVE shall reveal to those to whom LOVE shall reveal, the truth that NOW is the "DAY"

The "DAY" and "TIME" that is accepted, and in which SALVATION occurs -- 2 Cor 6:2 -- and is the "DAY" in which SIN is NOT IMPUTED -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- and in which GRACE does MUCH MORE ABOUND -- Rom 5:20 --and in which is found  FORGIVENESS, ...for we KNOW NOT what we -- DO! -- Luke 23:24

Those who have come to KNOW LOVE, ...thereby KNOW that LOVE is about a positive agenda that seeks to SAVE, not to destroy... that seeks to COMFORT, not to instill FEAR... that seeks to GAIN our RESPECT by LOVE, not by forcing it down our throats with HORRIBLE PUNISHMENTS... :mnah:

MEN create Horror and FEAR, and proclaim it to be an imposing and FEARFUL future coming from GOD... :rolleye:  Instead of preaching of WHO and WHAT He is... LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- and how He ETERNALLY and LOVINGLY feels about the WORLD -- John 3:16-17 -- which He shall NOT CONDEMN, for the Savior was sent NOT to condemn...

All along, FEAR is the creation of man's own inherent carnal selfishness which thinks himself able to obtain a better position through his OWN EFFORTS...  :faint:

And in conclusion, said VEIL which keeps man from seeing that NOTHING is "up to him"... is to be removed and it shall become KNOWN by him, that the VEIL was part of the PURPOSE of YHVH who works ALL THINGS...

This shall be done to the ETERNAL JOY of those yet to KNOW the PURPOSED workings of LOVE, which are presently inhibited by their ORDAINED, yet "self imposed" creation of FEAR which in turn, has restricted their vision of the wonder of LOVE... which GOD has purposed through His Children, ...for ALL to KNOW "Good and Evil"...

The REVELATION of this KNOWLEDGE shall FOREVER serve to magnify the GLORY of YHVH and His Son JESUS CHRIST... for it is about ---> :bowing: YHVH God, ...NOT about ...us...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

Nehemiah 13 (Amplified Bible)

31 And I provided for the wood offering at appointed times, and for the firstfruits. O my God, [earnestly] remember me for good and imprint me [on Your heart]!

[lomarah]

Fear is a form of worship.  Whatever we fear the most is a lord to us.  If, in our minds, the biggest muscle in our neighborhood is not God, then we are subject to whatever else is.  Are we afraid of what will be done to us, or afraid we'll fail?  Do we fear being like Esau, who, "...wanting to enjoy the allotment blessing, he is rejected, for he did not find a place of repentance, even seeking it out with tears?"  Whatever the worst thing we fear is, we may have to go through that very thing until we discover God is greater.  We must "suffer the loss of all things" to find out what God can do with "a grain of mustard seed."  It was through death Jesus qualified to have the keys to death.  If we do not fear God more than anything else, then we haven't been under His chastening rod sufficiently to distinguish God from everything else.  And, since, "The end of the Lord is mercy," until we discover, "Mercy is His darling attribute," it is in fact His throne, we do not yet know the Lord as He should be known.  The extent to which we fear God is the extent to which we will serve Him.  The truth is there is nothing else you should be afraid of but God.  Nothing else can demand your service or bend you to its will if you fear God alone.

I have been suddenly cut off, and that without remedy several times.  When I sinned in His face, God kicked me so far from Him I never came back.  When you intentionally, willfully use God's gifts to do what He hates and He seizes hold of you, shakes you, and dips you in Himself as Total burning, bright flaming fire so there is nothing else you can think of for a while, only the burnings, and then He holds you up face to face with Him expecting to see His own image looking back at Him...

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom," but, "Fear is not in love," and "God is love."  So, in its end, wisdom morphs into, "The love of Christ that transcends understanding."  "...perfect love is casting out fear, for fear has chastening. Now he who is fearing is not made perfect in love."  This is a walk.  Jesus is the Way.  We have to start somewhere.  We find ourselves in clay vessels.  There is a life force, a bios (Greek) that must come under discipline, until we become the servant God would have His offspring be.  The child cannot be given the keys to the car.  You cannot have access to the account until you are old enough.  While we wear suits of flesh and blood we have farther yet to go.  Though the embodiment of glory is at hand, to wear God as we wear our body is opened to us, and we've even had times where we had crossed over, until we come to the perfect man, a finished man, "...a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the complement of the Christ,"  until we  are so "...in love [that] we should be making all grow into Him, Who is the Head -- Christ -- out of Whom the entire body, being articulated together and united through every assimilation of the supply, in accord with the operation in measure of each one's part, is making for the growth of the body, for the upbuilding of itself in love" we must go on, pressing into all that God has for us.  It is the one thing that the apostle Paul said he was doing:  "...yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front -- toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus."  He also calls it, "...attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead," and, a transfigured body of glory:  "For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.  It is also said to us that, "Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this."  We are still in this race to reach the finish line before death can take us out.  For those who do, they are no longer subject to death.

The wicked transgress because, "there is no fear of God before their eyes."  David said, "Before I was chastened I went astray."  After describing Jesus' agony to submit to His Father and not sin, even to sweating great drops of blood, the Scripture goes on to say:

Hebrews 12:4-11 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
4 Not as yet unto blood did you repulse, when contending against sin.
5 And you have been oblivious of the entreaty which is arguing with you as with sons: My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord, Nor yet faint when being exposed by Him.
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.
9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living.
10 For these, indeed, disciplined for a few days as it seemed best to them, yet that One for our expedience, for us to be partaking of His holiness.
11 Now all discipline, indeed, for the present is not seeming to be a thing of joy, but of sorrow, yet subsequently it is rendering the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those exercised through it.

Thank you reFORMer, I love reading your posts, they are filled with the wisdom of God.  :cloud9:

[Beloved Servant]

Amen re FORMer,
That's what the Old Testament is all about.
Idol worship.
and
The New Testament is all about the opposite of hate, which is love.
His love, our reciprocal love for Him, the consummation of all things in His Christ, Jesus, The Word, without Whom, we simply would not exist!

[reFORMer]

For those that already have some experience with the Lord perhaps the commonest response to being confronted with the message that Scripture really teaches the salvation of all is to ask why not just go out and sin all we want if we'll all go to heaven anyway.  The detailed answers to that are here and there elsewhere on tentmaker.  The reason for mentioning it here is that as you answer them they commonly see that it was not a well thought out response.  What they don't see is that it is an ideal revelation of their hearts.  That response is the product logically and emotionally of what and how they have been taught to believe.

They walk in their own approval, often not realizing it is the passage of time that eases their consciences rather than faith in the finished work of Christ.  They believe they'll achieve some future reward because of adhering to their own version of a standard they actually don't live up to anyway.  If they really want to sin what does that say of their heart, whether they're sufficiently "born again" or not?  They're actually admitting it's fear of something future that not only keeps them in line, but how they view everybody else's virtue.  We're not all brutish fools.  "A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool." (Pv 17:10, AV)  It is degrading to the majesty of God Who is Love, as if He has only brought forth those who must be clubbed into submission, or that it is the extent of His limited repertoire of disciplining techniques.  Instead of a better place in death, it's having Christ fully formed in them and coming to bear the image of God that is His purpose.  When this part of the puzzle is corrected there is improvement.  More value is placed on persons, character and intimacy with God rather than places and things.  Really, that it is a puzzle is because the popular doctrine and social pressure keeps them from admitting the nature of the One Who has begun a revelation of Himself in them.  They have not waited attentive to Him, meditating on and being conformed in their understanding to His manifestation granted to them.

Fear of a threatening big bully god poisons sours their own personalities, barely permitting their hearts to love the world for whom Christ died.  It keeps them judging others by their abbreviated law, condemning many great people who, instead of seen as those who God in the ages to come will perfect and save, are somehow deserving ceaseless torture forever.  Moloch marks them with scars of fear and anger.  They go about inflicting fear and bondage, using threats and intimidation that provokes anger, and creating divisions and rejections from which they refuse to repent.  They become like their god.

[Paul Hazelwood]

It keeps them judging others by their abbreviated law, condemning many great people who, instead of seen as those who God in the ages to come will perfect and save, are somehow deserving ceaseless torture forever.  Moloch marks them with scars of fear and anger.  They go about inflicting fear and bondage, using threats and intimidation that provokes anger, and creating divisions and rejections from which they refuse to repent.  They become like their god.

Well,  the point of this thread is to deal with this perspective, what of it if they do that? 

[Paul Hazelwood]

There is no "day of accounting"... we are IN the DAY of YHVH in which ALL GENERATIONS -- appear! -- Gen 2:4

Semantics

Ro 14:12 Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God.

This includes you.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Nothing to FEARFULLY dread as we make the mistakes we make... for LOVE does the OPPOSITE of IMPOSING FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 --  Rather, LOVE shall reveal to those to whom LOVE shall reveal, the truth that NOW is the "DAY"
]willieH[/glow]  :HeartThrob:[/b][/i][/move]

The word fear by definition is a part of scripture and not every instance of our instruction includes the implication of awe and respect, this is a fact no matter how many verses you post.

Ro 14:13 By no means, then, should we still be judging one another, but rather decide this, not *to place a stumbling block for a *brother, or a snare.

Why should the above verse even carry any concern?  No fear?  Then I do not really have to care about causing my brother to stumble.   

And if someone uses the typical argument that talks about my heart for saying such things it still comes back to the same thing,  I do not need to fear what my heart is like? 

I think the greater problem is separating the reality of a righteous type of fear and horror.   

Some don't want to talk about fear of any kind, yet the whole idea is then a contradiction to the concept.  If I am not to fear anything, then I do not have to fear trying to persuade men with horrors either.

[willieH]

There is no "day of accounting"... we are IN the DAY of YHVH in which ALL GENERATIONS -- appear! -- Gen 2:4

Semantics

Ro 14:12 Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God.

This includes you.

semantics isnt the point, the TRUTH is the point...

I did not say we would not GIVE account, and this verse does not substanciate the claim there is a "DAY of ACCOUNT"...

That account is GIVEN NOW... and that includes YOU...  :winkgrin:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Paul Hazelwood]

There is no "day of accounting"... we are IN the DAY of YHVH in which ALL GENERATIONS -- appear! -- Gen 2:4

Semantics

Ro 14:12 Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God.

This includes you.

semantics isnt the point, the TRUTH is the point...

I did not say we would not GIVE account, and this verse does not substanciate the claim there is a "DAY of ACCOUNT"...

That account is GIVEN NOW... and that includes YOU...  :winkgrin:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

The concept is scriptural,  as long as you know that we account for our lives, then I see nothing more that I find disagreement in.

Ac 17:31 forasmuch as He assigns a day in which He is |about to be judging the |inhabited~ earth in righteousness inby the Man Whom He specifies, tendering faith to all, _raising Him outfrom among the dead--"

[willieH]

Nothing to FEARFULLY dread as we make the mistakes we make... for LOVE does the OPPOSITE of IMPOSING FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 --  Rather, LOVE shall reveal to those to whom LOVE shall reveal, the truth that NOW is the "DAY"

The word fear by definition is a part of scripture and not every instance of our instruction includes the implication of awe and respect, this is a fact no matter how many verses you post.

How weak is an arguement that notes the proposal of NO Scripture, as opposed to MANY Scriptures, is therefore the "defining" observation...  :laughing7:

:Yeahright:  According to Scripture the WORD (of TRUTH) is ESTABLISHED in the mouth of 2 or MORE witnesses -- 2 Cor 13:1 -- 1 Tim 5:19

Scripture SPECIFICALLY notes:  LOVE CASTS OUT FEAR... so it is NOT about requiring FEAR to be "OBTAINED" for crying out loud... 1 John 4:18 -- LOVE is about RIDDING oneself OF FEAR!

FEAR and LOVE are antithetic to one another... so WHY would LOVE [God] propose we obtain that which is OPPOSITE and CONTRARY to Himself?   :dontknow:

That is like saying NO ONE is SAFE until EVERYONE has A GUN! :omg:

"FEAR" being taught in PLACE of the GOSPEL of PEACE (which opposes FEAR), is the carnal man clinging to life, afraid to DIE... and as Scripture notes... is yet to be PERFECTED in LOVE -- 1 John 4:18

Ro 14:13 By no means, then, should we still be judging one another, but rather decide this, not *to place a stumbling block for a *brother, or a snare.

Why should the above verse even carry any concern?  No fear?  Then I do not really have to care about causing my brother to stumble.

Semantics... PEACE is a CALMING state... FEAR is an UNCALMING state...  If one is FEARING as "way of life"... then one is NOT at PEACE... 

These are contrary to one another.  JESUS spoke unto the FEAR and TURMOIL which came upon the Apostles via the STORM -- Luke 8:24 -- Matt 25-26 - Mark 4:38-39

Then He noted ---> PEACE!  Be STILL! -- Matt 8:25-26 -- Mark 4:38-39 -- Luke 8:24-25 --  Immediately QUESTIONING their FAITH, because of the FEAR they exhibited!!! 

You SUBSTITUTE the word "CONCERN" in the stead of FEAR in your quote above, in a further attempt to found FEAR, instead of proposing a Scriptural arguement... as if FEAR is a necessary element within the concept of CONCERN.

I can and DO have concern for others WITHOUT FEAR, for LOVE is WITHOUT FEAR...

In any case, Rom 14:13  does not propose FEAR at all... I think you miss the entire point.  And in that, endeavor to create a foundation for a false premise.

To be "concerned" has nothing to do with being AFRAID... I am concerned for the welfare of my children, friends, and neighbors, but FEAR does not enter into it... On the CONTRARY... TRUSTING in LOVE [God] to provide for them is enlisted by me as I go about my "CONCERN"...

It is out of LOVE that I wish for and DO all I can that they remain safe, and that their needs be met, ...NOT... because I sit and FEAR by WORRYING about them, dreading that something might bring harm to them. :rolleye:

We are not to be AFRAID or FEARFUL that we might cause our brother to stumble, we are counseled by this Scripture that it is our SPIRITUAL duty to be cognizant of making such a mistake. 

Again on the CONTRARY... the WORD counsels us to FEAR NOT... rather to TRUST in the Almighty's WILL which proceeds from LOVE -- as CHRIST exemplified with the STORM...

In doing the WORK of the LORD we must be WITHOUT FEAR...

1 Cor 16:10 -- now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you WITHOUT FEAR -- for he WORKETH the WORK OF THE LORD, as I also do...

And if someone uses the typical argument that talks about my heart for saying such things it still comes back to the same thing,  I do not need to fear what my heart is like? 

I think the greater problem is separating the reality of a righteous type of fear and horror.

There is no such thing as a "righteous type of fear", please note where it is described and/or outlined in the WORD... and if it is not noted or outlined in the WORD, then it is your creation.

FEAR as used in Scripture is to RESPECT or "be in AWE" of GOD... NOT to be AFRAID of Him...  

He LOVES us... How many of those whom you LOVE and whom LOVE YOU, are you FEARFUL of?  :mshock: -- I thought so...  :laughing7:

Some don't want to talk about fear of any kind, yet the whole idea is then a contradiction to the concept.  If I am not to fear anything, then I do not have to fear trying to persuade men with horrors either.

To propose HORROR or FEAR within the message of the GOSPEL, ...is to negate the proposition of PEACE, for which the GOSPEL is named -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15

:Peace: ...NOT FEAR...

...willieH   :icon_king:

[lomarah]

The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. My daughter is a year and a half. She does not yet understand that she cannot run out into the road without being in danger of being hit by a car. But she does understand that Mommy and Daddy will get VERY upset if she goes near the road without holding one of our hands. When she gets older she will realize why and she will be very grateful, i'm sure, that we instilled that fear into her.

Knowing that God will hold me accountable and will punish me if need be makes me feel secure and safe. (For example, He punished Ananias and Sapphira, David and Bathsheba, and many more.) I am grateful for God's punishments because they are always for my benefit, to make me into His image of goodness and righteousness. And they are always just.

[jabcat]

The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. My daughter is a year and a half. She does not yet understand that she cannot run out into the road without being in danger of being hit by a car. But she does understand that Mommy and Daddy will get VERY upset if she goes near the road without holding one of our hands. When she gets older she will realize why and she will be very grateful, i'm sure, that we instilled that fear into her.

Knowing that God will hold me accountable and will punish me if need be makes me feel secure and safe. (For example, He punished Ananias and Sapphira, David and Bathsheba, and many more.) I am grateful for God's punishments because they are always for my benefit, to make me into His image of goodness and righteousness. And they are always just.

:thumbsup: