Erasing Hell by Francis Chan

[Akira Takahashi]

I probably spelled his name wrong.  Anyway, has anyone read this?  It looks like another book designed to thrash Bell and strike the fear of Hell into the hearts of many.  I wonder how many people will turn away from God because of this, whether because they feel that such a god has no business being worshipped or out of fear for their lost sons/daughters/parents/siblings/etc.

[PaoloNuevo]

It probably is another anti UR book... all we can do is petition the Father... for it is not on human will, but on God who shows mercy...

If the ET's have been hardened by God, then it is only the Father who can draw them to the light...

Yes, the hell fire tradition has led me away from Christ but Jesus drew me back in starting with Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin. The evangelical churchians are an impossible people sometimes! But with God all things are possible.  :cloud9:

[sheila]

  well,Hell is to be erased by fire...the hell where we now live on this earth...where so very very many are under slavery of satan..IT.will be erased

  2 Peter 3;12   as you look forward to the day of God and speed it's coming.THAT DAY WILL BRING THE DESTRUCTION OF THE HEAVENS[satan

  the accusor of the brethern] BY FIRE..........AND THE ELEMENTS EL[God"S] ments[THOUGHTS] will melt[THEIR HARD HEARTS]

    [AND THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING IN IT WILL BE LAID BARE=SHAME OF HIS NAKEDNESS[SATAN'S] EXPOSED

    but in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heavens and new earth,the home of righteousness

    iSAAIH 34;4    ALL THE STARS OF HEAVEN WILL BE DISSOLVED[INTERPRETED] AND THE SKY ROLLED UP LIKE A SCROLL[TODAY THIS SCRIPTURE

  IS FULFILLED]

   ALL THE STARRY HOST WILL FALL[NOT ONE OF THEM IS RIGHTEOUS] LIKE WITHERED LEAVES FROM THE VINE,LIKE SHRIVELED FIGS FROM THE FIG TREE

     MARK 11;13-25  MAY NO-ONE EVER EAT FRUIT FROM YOU AGAIN[FOR I WAS A HUNGERED AND YOU GAVE ME NOTHING TO EAT]

    CH 35  JOY OF THE REDEEMED

    THE DESSERT AND THE PARCHED LAND WILL BE GLAD,THE WILDERNESS WILL REJOICE AND BLOSSOM.....THEY WILL SEE THE GLORY OF THE LORD

   STRENGTHEN THE FEEBLE HANDS,STEADY THE KNEES THAT GIVE WAY,SAY TO THOSE WITH FEARFUL HEARTS,'BE STRONG,DO NOT FEAR

   YOUR GOD WILL COME,HE WILL COME WITH VENGENANCE,WITH DIVINE RETRIBUTION,HE WILL COME TO SAVE YOU

.....THEN WILL THE EYES OF THE BLIND BE OPENED...AND A HIGHWAY WILL BE THERE.....THE RANSOMED OF THE LORD WILL RETURN...

   THEY WILL ENTER ZION WITH SINGING....GLADNESS AND JOY WILL OVERTAKE THEM,AND SORROW AND SIGHING FLEE AWAY

[thinktank]

I heard this guy talk on youtube. His argument was in the simultude of


"How can we say God won't do this or that about torturing in eternal hell"

"the scripture says his ways are above our ways, his thoughts are higher than ours."
Francis chan

I would watch and see his video for exact words, these are not direct quotations of his.


He used a scripture which shows God is higher than us, in order to prove that God is lower than us  :laughing7:

Shame too as I was under the impression that he was an UR ist at first.

[Miriam]

There's a review of this in the latest edition of the magazine "Christianity." I quote, "Chan is honest about his own struggle with the concept of God punishing non-believers in hell, and how unjust and unloving it seems to him. But his response, again and again, is to say, effectively, 'That's what it says, so that's what we have to believe - whether we understand it or not.'" The reviewer - unsurprisingly - comes to the conclusion that he doesn't want the God that Chan paints.

I always have a reading list as long as my arm and can safely say I won't be adding this book to it.  :grin:

[WhiteWings]

I heard this guy talk on youtube. His argument was in the simultude of


"How can we say God won't do this or that about torturing in eternal hell"

"the scripture says his ways are above our ways, his thoughts are higher than ours."
Francis chan

That same argument can be used in an UR way too.
Why wouldn't God save Hitler? God's ways are higher than us.

[redhotmagma]

what is the passage of Gods ways are higher than our ways referring to?  Gods mercy.

[Lazarus Short]

I finished reading "Erasing Hell" a couple of days ago.  It is dishonest - the title should have been something like "Highlighting Hell" or "Underscoring Hell."  It is basically a bait-and-switch to draw in the UR-believer or UR-seeker, and then gradually bring the standard Damnationist arguments to bear.  Well, the authors are Bible scholars, but they did not dig as deep as I did (a layman) in my own researches on the subject.  Pathetic.  I think the book is a hit piece.  I wish I had the hours invested in reading it back - what a waste.  :doh: :footmouth: :punish: :eek: :sigh: :2c:

The only bright spot was the authors' expressed humility.  I liked their attitude, but not the theology.

[MusicLover123]

what is the passage of Gods ways are higher than our ways referring to?  Gods mercy.

No, It is actually referring to His higher ways of how to burn you in hell forever.

I finished reading "Erasing Hell" a couple of days ago.  It is dishonest - the title should have been something like "Highlighting Hell" or "Underscoring Hell."  It is basically a bait-and-switch to draw in the UR-believer or UR-seeker, and then gradually bring the standard Damnationist arguments to bear.  Well, the authors are Bible scholars, but they did not dig as deep as I did (a layman) in my own researches on the subject.  Pathetic.  I think the book is a hit piece.  I wish I had the hours invested in reading it back - what a waste.  :doh: :footmouth: :punish: :eek: :sigh: :2c:

The only bright spot was the authors' expressed humility.  I liked their attitude, but not the theology.

Just curious, was it actually baiting UR, or the "standard" thought of someone who calls themselves a Universalist, "Unitarian Universalist?"

Also, when did you start realizing it was bait? Only near the end? Did you continue anyway because you enjoyed it? ;)

In my short time with annihilationism, I thought I saw Francis Chan as one in that camp. What a joy that will be when these people find their enemies are not dead or in hell, but that God still loves them.

[Lazarus Short]

what is the passage of Gods ways are higher than our ways referring to?  Gods mercy.

No, It is actually referring to His higher ways of how to burn you in hell forever.

I finished reading "Erasing Hell" a couple of days ago.  It is dishonest - the title should have been something like "Highlighting Hell" or "Underscoring Hell."  It is basically a bait-and-switch to draw in the UR-believer or UR-seeker, and then gradually bring the standard Damnationist arguments to bear.  Well, the authors are Bible scholars, but they did not dig as deep as I did (a layman) in my own researches on the subject.  Pathetic.  I think the book is a hit piece.  I wish I had the hours invested in reading it back - what a waste.  :doh: :footmouth: :punish: :eek: :sigh: :2c:

The only bright spot was the authors' expressed humility.  I liked their attitude, but not the theology.

Just curious, was it actually baiting UR, or the "standard" thought of someone who calls themselves a Universalist, "Unitarian Universalist?"

Also, when did you start realizing it was bait? Only near the end? Did you continue anyway because you enjoyed it? ;)

In my short time with annihilationism, I thought I saw Francis Chan as one in that camp. What a joy that will be when these people find their enemies are not dead or in hell, but that God still loves them.

I think it was baiting, as the title implied.  I was well into the book before I realized that I had been "Rick Rolled."  :footmouth: :doh:

I saw it as the "standard" thought and argument of someone I have come to refer to as a Damnationist.  :declare:

As I said, I was well into the book when I realized I had been had - but I was just too determined to finish.  :sigh:

[chester-blowfold]

It made his co-author reconsider his views. I've watched Chan a few times on youtube. He is the master of saying a lot without saying anything.

http://www.christianuniversalism.com/2013/03/co-author-of-erasing-hell-changing-his-position-on-hell/

[Dandelion]

I probably spelled his name wrong.  Anyway, has anyone read this?  It looks like another book designed to thrash Bell and strike the fear of Hell into the hearts of many.  I wonder how many people will turn away from God because of this, whether because they feel that such a god has no business being worshipped or out of fear for their lost sons/daughters/parents/siblings/etc.

Here is one of Chan's anti-UR videos.

https://youtu.be/BBymJWJk6nY

D.

[chester-blowfold]

I heard this guy talk on youtube. His argument was in the simultude of


"How can we say God won't do this or that about torturing in eternal hell"

"the scripture says his ways are above our ways, his thoughts are higher than ours."
Francis chan

That same argument can be used in an UR way too.
Why wouldn't God save Hitler? God's ways are higher than us.

God will save Hitler.

[marie glen]

Amen, even Hitler and the many like him will be saved by the blood of Jesus.. Its that strong! And they too, were/are deceived. A product of the wrong road of life, there being two(?) if that wrong road of life is allowed to run its course - ultimately PROVING God right about all things - the whole range of possibilities are sure to be played out. (An abyss of possibility? Rev. 9's pit?) And what better way to write His law (summed up as "Love") upon every heart? Sealing us/all, and sealing paradise/perfection? Age to age..

[DavidFord]

I wonder how many people will turn away from God because of this, whether because they feel that such a god has no business being worshipped or out of fear for their lost sons/daughters/parents/siblings/etc.

atheist Charles Darwin
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?pageseq=1&itemID=CUL-DAR26.1-121&viewtype=text
....disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete.  The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, & have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct.  I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, & this would include my Father, Brother & almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.  And this is a damnable doctrine.

[DavidFord]

If the ET's have been hardened by God, then it is only the Father who can draw them to the light...

What does being "hardened by God" involve?
It's possible to pray that people be loosed from their misconceptions about themselves, God, others-- and the afterlife.

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[DavidFord]

Amen, even Hitler and the many like him will be saved by the blood of Jesus.. Its that strong! And they too, were/are deceived. A product of the wrong road of life

The atheist Hitler's father was an atheist who beat the young Hitler.

[marie glen]

Amen, great posts.  David.
:Chinscratch: It makes it seem like believing really is a miracle.. aided along by (Spirit led) prayers and planting of seed (verses)..

Mt.Darwin's word's sure are sad..

Makes me think our Heavenly Father, when it suits, can be somewhat of a drama queen/King! Seems to me like whatever He is doing/teaching, He must want it to be with real impact. Makes me want UR be the followers who pattern our message the most accurately!

[eaglesway]

I probably spelled his name wrong.  Anyway, has anyone read this?  It looks like another book designed to thrash Bell and strike the fear of Hell into the hearts of many.  I wonder how many people will turn away from God because of this, whether because they feel that such a god has no business being worshipped or out of fear for their lost sons/daughters/parents/siblings/etc.

Great post.

[eaglesway]

It probably is another anti UR book... all we can do is petition the Father... for it is not on human will, but on God who shows mercy...

If the ET's have been hardened by God, then it is only the Father who can draw them to the light...

Yes, the hell fire tradition has led me away from Christ but Jesus drew me back in starting with Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin. The evangelical churchians are an impossible people sometimes! But with God all things are possible.  :cloud9:

Wonderful post.

The first two posts in this thread really explain the reality of being a proponent of the truth that is in our gospel, which His gospel, and His plan which will ultimately envelope all creation!

[jabcat]

Amen, great posts.  David.
:Chinscratch: It makes it seem like believing really is a miracle.. aided along by (Spirit led) prayers and planting of seed (verses)..

Oh I think it absolutely is!   I talked once about the miracle of coming to faith in Jesus, and a former member said "what's miraculous about it?".

Well, to name a few things;  God knows our name.  Chooses when to convict and call us.  Chooses when, how, and how much faith to give us.  Empowers us to turn to Him and believe, giving us the very faith to do so.  Drags us over from darkness to light.  Gives us the right to be called "children of God".  Grafts us into the tree, into the family/body.  Make us a new creation, gives us a new nature to battle and overcome the old.   Sees us as "saints" even in our weaknesses. Places His Spirit in our heart, seals us with His Spirit as His to keep unto that Day of full redemption ("to wit, the redemption of our bodies").  Empowers us to walk daily with Him, leading us into further obedience and becoming more like Him ("growing in grace and knowledge").  Listening to us, answering us, protecting us, providing for us, giving us the strength and assurance of endurance. 

So, miraculous?  To quote a failed politician - "you bet'cha!".   :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Amen!

“What’s miraculous about it?” :mshock: :faint:

I also love the verses that say”faithful is HE to complete the work HE has begun in us.” I didn’t fully see the import of both of the “HE’s” before.. didn’t really take note of the second one..
:thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Amen!

"What's miraculous about it?" :mshock: :faint:

I also love the verses that say"faithful is HE to complete the work HE has begun in us." I didn't fully see the import of both of the "HE's" before.. didn't really take note of the second one..
:thumbsup:

:clapping:

[jugghead]

If people are only given two choices, i.e. God created or evolution, they can easily believe in God and not evolution, but then comes the two choices of who God is: a God of ET or a God of UR, if people are not given the information that there is a second choice in believing who God is, they can easily be swayed into believing in ET.

The ETers keep UR hidden from them and if it is brought up, of course it is a heresy.

The way I come to understand UR was through the example of: there are only three options when it comes to salvation:
NONE, SOME and ALL

1. NONE; is the category in which evolution is under
2. SOME; is the category in which the God of ET is under
3. ALL: is the category in which the God of UR is under

If you believe in God, then the first option is automatically discarded, and then, since you do believe in God, which option is then discarded? Investigate the Bible under the context of both options completely:

if it isn't, the belief in ET will be the result
if it is, the belief in UR will be the result

Of which I believe, if the Bible is studied under the context of both options at the same time ----- is a more detail description of "letting the tares and the wheat grow together, uproot one and the roots of the other can be pulled up as well, let them grow together until the harvest, it is then we see which will be brought into the barn and which is burned up" (Paraphrased of course)

And on the subject of miracles: the third option of UR is the miracle that saves mankind

my  :2c:

[Dandelion]

I have seen a small amount of video with Frances Chan, but, in general, what I see and hear are generalities, and speaking about how could it be there is no hell based on what I read in the Bible, but, what I don't see or hear is a verse by verse explanation and analysis of what the Bible actually says.

Certainly not what I think of when I think of apologetics.

D.