I probably spelled his name wrong. Anyway, has anyone read this? It looks like another book designed to thrash Bell and strike the fear of Hell into the hearts of many. I wonder how many people will turn away from God because of this, whether because they feel that such a god has no business being worshipped or out of fear for their lost sons/daughters/parents/siblings/etc.
It probably is another anti UR book... all we can do is petition the Father... for it is not on human will, but on God who shows mercy...
If the ET's have been hardened by God, then it is only the Father who can draw them to the light...
Yes, the hell fire tradition has led me away from Christ but Jesus drew me back in starting with Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin. The evangelical churchians are an impossible people sometimes! But with God all things are possible. :cloud9:
well,Hell is to be erased by fire...the hell where we now live on this earth...where so very very many are under slavery of satan..IT.will be erased
2 Peter 3;12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed it's coming.THAT DAY WILL BRING THE DESTRUCTION OF THE HEAVENS[satan
the accusor of the brethern] BY FIRE..........AND THE ELEMENTS EL[God"S] ments[THOUGHTS] will melt[THEIR HARD HEARTS]
[AND THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING IN IT WILL BE LAID BARE=SHAME OF HIS NAKEDNESS[SATAN'S] EXPOSED
but in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heavens and new earth,the home of righteousness
iSAAIH 34;4 ALL THE STARS OF HEAVEN WILL BE DISSOLVED[INTERPRETED] AND THE SKY ROLLED UP LIKE A SCROLL[TODAY THIS SCRIPTURE
IS FULFILLED]
ALL THE STARRY HOST WILL FALL[NOT ONE OF THEM IS RIGHTEOUS] LIKE WITHERED LEAVES FROM THE VINE,LIKE SHRIVELED FIGS FROM THE FIG TREE
MARK 11;13-25 MAY NO-ONE EVER EAT FRUIT FROM YOU AGAIN[FOR I WAS A HUNGERED AND YOU GAVE ME NOTHING TO EAT]
CH 35 JOY OF THE REDEEMED
THE DESSERT AND THE PARCHED LAND WILL BE GLAD,THE WILDERNESS WILL REJOICE AND BLOSSOM.....THEY WILL SEE THE GLORY OF THE LORD
STRENGTHEN THE FEEBLE HANDS,STEADY THE KNEES THAT GIVE WAY,SAY TO THOSE WITH FEARFUL HEARTS,'BE STRONG,DO NOT FEAR
YOUR GOD WILL COME,HE WILL COME WITH VENGENANCE,WITH DIVINE RETRIBUTION,HE WILL COME TO SAVE YOU
.....THEN WILL THE EYES OF THE BLIND BE OPENED...AND A HIGHWAY WILL BE THERE.....THE RANSOMED OF THE LORD WILL RETURN...
THEY WILL ENTER ZION WITH SINGING....GLADNESS AND JOY WILL OVERTAKE THEM,AND SORROW AND SIGHING FLEE AWAY
I heard this guy talk on youtube. His argument was in the simultude of
"How can we say God won't do this or that about torturing in eternal hell"
"the scripture says his ways are above our ways, his thoughts are higher than ours."
Francis chan
I would watch and see his video for exact words, these are not direct quotations of his.
He used a scripture which shows God is higher than us, in order to prove that God is lower than us :laughing7:
Shame too as I was under the impression that he was an UR ist at first.
There's a review of this in the latest edition of the magazine "Christianity." I quote, "Chan is honest about his own struggle with the concept of God punishing non-believers in hell, and how unjust and unloving it seems to him. But his response, again and again, is to say, effectively, 'That's what it says, so that's what we have to believe - whether we understand it or not.'" The reviewer - unsurprisingly - comes to the conclusion that he doesn't want the God that Chan paints.
I always have a reading list as long as my arm and can safely say I won't be adding this book to it. :grin:
Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2011, 09:32:39 PM
I heard this guy talk on youtube. His argument was in the simultude of
"How can we say God won't do this or that about torturing in eternal hell"
"the scripture says his ways are above our ways, his thoughts are higher than ours."
Francis chan
That same argument can be used in an UR way too.
Why wouldn't God save Hitler? God's ways are higher than us.
what is the passage of Gods ways are higher than our ways referring to? Gods mercy.
I finished reading "Erasing Hell" a couple of days ago. It is dishonest - the title should have been something like "Highlighting Hell" or "Underscoring Hell." It is basically a bait-and-switch to draw in the UR-believer or UR-seeker, and then gradually bring the standard Damnationist arguments to bear. Well, the authors are Bible scholars, but they did not dig as deep as I did (a layman) in my own researches on the subject. Pathetic. I think the book is a hit piece. I wish I had the hours invested in reading it back - what a waste. :doh: :footmouth: :punish: :eek: :sigh: :2c:
The only bright spot was the authors' expressed humility. I liked their attitude, but not the theology.
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 16, 2011, 02:15:39 PM
what is the passage of Gods ways are higher than our ways referring to? Gods mercy.
No, It is actually referring to His higher ways of how to burn you in hell forever.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 05, 2018, 06:28:19 PM
I finished reading "Erasing Hell" a couple of days ago. It is dishonest - the title should have been something like "Highlighting Hell" or "Underscoring Hell." It is basically a bait-and-switch to draw in the UR-believer or UR-seeker, and then gradually bring the standard Damnationist arguments to bear. Well, the authors are Bible scholars, but they did not dig as deep as I did (a layman) in my own researches on the subject. Pathetic. I think the book is a hit piece. I wish I had the hours invested in reading it back - what a waste. :doh: :footmouth: :punish: :eek: :sigh: :2c:
The only bright spot was the authors' expressed humility. I liked their attitude, but not the theology.
Just curious, was it actually baiting UR, or the "standard" thought of someone who calls themselves a Universalist, "Unitarian Universalist?"
Also, when did you start realizing it was bait? Only near the end? Did you continue anyway because you enjoyed it? ;)
In my short time with annihilationism, I thought I saw Francis Chan as one in that camp. What a joy that will be when these people find their enemies are not dead or in hell, but that God still loves them.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on May 05, 2018, 08:38:18 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 16, 2011, 02:15:39 PM
what is the passage of Gods ways are higher than our ways referring to? Gods mercy.
No, It is actually referring to His higher ways of how to burn you in hell forever.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 05, 2018, 06:28:19 PM
I finished reading "Erasing Hell" a couple of days ago. It is dishonest - the title should have been something like "Highlighting Hell" or "Underscoring Hell." It is basically a bait-and-switch to draw in the UR-believer or UR-seeker, and then gradually bring the standard Damnationist arguments to bear. Well, the authors are Bible scholars, but they did not dig as deep as I did (a layman) in my own researches on the subject. Pathetic. I think the book is a hit piece. I wish I had the hours invested in reading it back - what a waste. :doh: :footmouth: :punish: :eek: :sigh: :2c:
The only bright spot was the authors' expressed humility. I liked their attitude, but not the theology.
Just curious, was it actually baiting UR, or the "standard" thought of someone who calls themselves a Universalist, "Unitarian Universalist?"
Also, when did you start realizing it was bait? Only near the end? Did you continue anyway because you enjoyed it? ;)
In my short time with annihilationism, I thought I saw Francis Chan as one in that camp. What a joy that will be when these people find their enemies are not dead or in hell, but that God still loves them.
I think it was baiting, as the title implied. I was well into the book before I realized that I had been "Rick Rolled." :footmouth: :doh:
I saw it as the "standard" thought and argument of someone I have come to refer to as a Damnationist. :declare:
As I said, I was well into the book when I realized I had been had - but I was just too determined to finish. :sigh:
It made his co-author reconsider his views. I've watched Chan a few times on youtube. He is the master of saying a lot without saying anything.
http://www.christianuniversalism.com/2013/03/co-author-of-erasing-hell-changing-his-position-on-hell/
Quote from: Akira Takahashi on August 03, 2011, 03:43:52 PM
I probably spelled his name wrong. Anyway, has anyone read this? It looks like another book designed to thrash Bell and strike the fear of Hell into the hearts of many. I wonder how many people will turn away from God because of this, whether because they feel that such a god has no business being worshipped or out of fear for their lost sons/daughters/parents/siblings/etc.
Here is one of Chan's anti-UR videos.
https://youtu.be/BBymJWJk6nY
D.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 16, 2011, 08:20:13 AM
Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2011, 09:32:39 PM
I heard this guy talk on youtube. His argument was in the simultude of
"How can we say God won't do this or that about torturing in eternal hell"
"the scripture says his ways are above our ways, his thoughts are higher than ours."
Francis chan
That same argument can be used in an UR way too.
Why wouldn't God save Hitler? God's ways are higher than us.
God will save Hitler.
Amen, even Hitler and the many like him will be saved by the blood of Jesus.. Its that strong! And they too, were/are deceived. A product of the wrong road of life, there being two(?) if that wrong road of life is allowed to run its course - ultimately PROVING God right about all things - the whole range of possibilities are sure to be played out. (An abyss of possibility? Rev. 9's pit?) And what better way to write His law (summed up as "Love") upon every heart? Sealing us/all, and sealing paradise/perfection? Age to age..
Quote from: Akira Takahashi on August 03, 2011, 03:43:52 PM
I wonder how many people will turn away from God because of this, whether because they feel that such a god has no business being worshipped or out of fear for their lost sons/daughters/parents/siblings/etc.
atheist Charles Darwin
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?pageseq=1&itemID=CUL-DAR26.1-121&viewtype=text
....disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, & have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, & this would include my Father, Brother & almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine.
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on August 03, 2011, 07:18:37 PMIf the ET's have been hardened by God, then it is only the Father who can draw them to the light...
What does being "hardened by God" involve?
It's possible to pray that people be loosed from their misconceptions about themselves, God, others-- and the afterlife.
Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Quote from: marie glen on December 10, 2018, 08:23:48 PMAmen, even Hitler and the many like him will be saved by the blood of Jesus.. Its that strong! And they too, were/are deceived. A product of the wrong road of life
The atheist Hitler's father was an atheist who beat the young Hitler.
Amen, great posts. David.
:Chinscratch: It makes it seem like believing really is a miracle.. aided along by (Spirit led) prayers and planting of seed (verses)..
Mt.Darwin's word's sure are sad..
Makes me think our Heavenly Father, when it suits, can be somewhat of a drama queen/King! Seems to me like whatever He is doing/teaching, He must want it to be with real impact. Makes me want UR be the followers who pattern our message the most accurately!
Quote from: Akira Takahashi on August 03, 2011, 03:43:52 PM
I probably spelled his name wrong. Anyway, has anyone read this? It looks like another book designed to thrash Bell and strike the fear of Hell into the hearts of many. I wonder how many people will turn away from God because of this, whether because they feel that such a god has no business being worshipped or out of fear for their lost sons/daughters/parents/siblings/etc.
Great post.
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on August 03, 2011, 07:18:37 PM
It probably is another anti UR book... all we can do is petition the Father... for it is not on human will, but on God who shows mercy...
If the ET's have been hardened by God, then it is only the Father who can draw them to the light...
Yes, the hell fire tradition has led me away from Christ but Jesus drew me back in starting with Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin. The evangelical churchians are an impossible people sometimes! But with God all things are possible. :cloud9:
Wonderful post.
The first two posts in this thread really explain the reality of being a proponent of the truth that is in our gospel, which His gospel, and His plan which will ultimately envelope all creation!
Quote from: marie glen on December 11, 2018, 06:09:44 PM
Amen, great posts. David.
:Chinscratch: It makes it seem like believing really is a miracle.. aided along by (Spirit led) prayers and planting of seed (verses)..
Oh I think it absolutely is! I talked once about the miracle of coming to faith in Jesus, and a former member said "what's miraculous about it?".
Well, to name a few things; God knows our name. Chooses when to convict and call us. Chooses when, how, and how much faith to give us. Empowers us to turn to Him and believe, giving us the very faith to do so. Drags us over from darkness to light. Gives us the right to be called "children of God". Grafts us into the tree, into the family/body. Make us a new creation, gives us a new nature to battle and overcome the old. Sees us as "saints" even in our weaknesses. Places His Spirit in our heart, seals us with His Spirit as His to keep unto that Day of full redemption ("to wit, the redemption of our bodies"). Empowers us to walk daily with Him, leading us into further obedience and becoming more like Him ("growing in grace and knowledge"). Listening to us, answering us, protecting us, providing for us, giving us the strength and assurance of endurance.
So, miraculous? To quote a failed politician - "you bet'cha!". :dsunny:
Amen!
“What’s miraculous about it?” :mshock: :faint:
I also love the verses that say”faithful is HE to complete the work HE has begun in us.” I didn’t fully see the import of both of the “HE’s” before.. didn’t really take note of the second one..
:thumbsup:
Quote from: marie glen on December 17, 2018, 01:18:10 AM
Amen!
"What's miraculous about it?" :mshock: :faint:
I also love the verses that say"faithful is HE to complete the work HE has begun in us." I didn't fully see the import of both of the "HE's" before.. didn't really take note of the second one..
:thumbsup:
:clapping:
If people are only given two choices, i.e. God created or evolution, they can easily believe in God and not evolution, but then comes the two choices of who God is: a God of ET or a God of UR, if people are not given the information that there is a second choice in believing who God is, they can easily be swayed into believing in ET.
The ETers keep UR hidden from them and if it is brought up, of course it is a heresy.
The way I come to understand UR was through the example of: there are only three options when it comes to salvation:
NONE, SOME and ALL
1. NONE; is the category in which evolution is under
2. SOME; is the category in which the God of ET is under
3. ALL: is the category in which the God of UR is under
If you believe in God, then the first option is automatically discarded, and then, since you do believe in God, which option is then discarded? Investigate the Bible under the context of both options completely:
if it isn't, the belief in ET will be the result
if it is, the belief in UR will be the result
Of which I believe, if the Bible is studied under the context of both options at the same time ----- is a more detail description of "letting the tares and the wheat grow together, uproot one and the roots of the other can be pulled up as well, let them grow together until the harvest, it is then we see which will be brought into the barn and which is burned up" (Paraphrased of course)
And on the subject of miracles: the third option of UR is the miracle that saves mankind
my :2c:
I have seen a small amount of video with Frances Chan, but, in general, what I see and hear are generalities, and speaking about how could it be there is no hell based on what I read in the Bible, but, what I don't see or hear is a verse by verse explanation and analysis of what the Bible actually says.
Certainly not what I think of when I think of apologetics.
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on December 18, 2018, 06:12:04 AM
I have seen a small amount of video with Frances Chan, but, in general, what I see and hear are generalities, and speaking about how could it be there is no hell based on what I read in the Bible, but, what I don't see or hear is a verse by verse explanation and analysis of what the Bible actually says.
Certainly not what I think of when I think of apologetics.
D.
Amen! :thumbsup:
Quote from: jugghead on December 17, 2018, 10:27:35 PM
The ETers keep UR hidden from them and if it is brought up, of course it is a heresy.
:Chinscratch:
I was reading 2 Corinthians 4:2 as the Berean Study Bible version of it -
...we have renounced secret and shameful ways. We do not practice deceit, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by open proclamation of the truth, we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God....And I realized how very much the Et gospel actually does distort God's Word/message! :doh: :faint:
...And I like the phrase "
open proclamation of the truth..
And the UR gospel = Truth
Quote from: marie glen on December 19, 2018, 10:18:09 PM
And the UR gospel = Truth
Maybe just me, but I kind of dislike saying "UR Gospel" as I think of the 2 gospel doctrine I disagree with.
I watched Chan crying on video and asking how God could do such a thing as tormenting forever n how far beyond Chans brain it was....guy is seriously deluded bout it
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 19, 2018, 10:45:02 PM
Quote from: marie glen on December 19, 2018, 10:18:09 PM
And the UR gospel = Truth
Maybe just me, but I kind of dislike saying "UR Gospel" as I think of the 2 gospel doctrine I disagree with.
Might be better to say the good news of universal reconciliation - no I don't believe the 2 gospels idea/teaching(?) either.
Quote from: darryl on December 20, 2018, 08:48:18 AM
I watched Chan crying on video and asking how God could do such a thing as tormenting forever n how far beyond Chans brain it was....guy is seriously deluded bout it
It's kind of, what I think of as 'twilight zoney'. And I think there's a few things which come under that heading! But absolutely none more than the idea of heaven being a blissful righteous household where in the basement horrible torturings would be going on..
And of course the strange crazy(?) delusion that with God so much is impossible.. :mshock: And believed by so many who say they know and love Him... which I do not doubt is the case with very many.. Has to be an'enchantment' so to speak..
I really have no problem saying "the UR gospel" as an identifier of the one true gospel....only because the word "gospel" has become synonymous with the "Jesus or Hell" message.
So many words have been perverted in their meaning by religionists that people dont know what they mean any more.
For instance, How could the word "gospel" which means "good news", define a message that says most people will burn in hell forever? Yet, when most people here that word, it is right where their minds go, because it is the most objectionable, abhorent teaching on the face of the whole earth. That such vindictiveness could be attributed to our Lord is a major reason many people reject "the gospel", which is not the gospel, but "another gospel", of which we have been exhorted to reject and oppose.
Part of the "tearing away of the veil" that keeps people "in the dark" and unable to see "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" is this false teaching of eternal torment.
The message of ET and their understanding of God is "based" on the existence of hell as taught to them, it is their foundation.
They say their foundation is Christ but they are blind to what they have built their message on,
how do I know this? because I was once blind to it.
I look back on how I was when I believed it and I rejoice that the old person I was is dead and I continue to rejoice knowing for a fact that everyone will come to the knowledge of this truth.
Blessings
Amen JH! When Jesus used the phrase "that your joy may be full".. He actually meant it! ...peace and joy unfading.. It's a peace and a joy that no matter what outward circumstances always keeps fountaining.. Knowing the truth of UR, trusting God / His character.. knowing the REAL him, is enduring peace and joy. We are very blessed. And the blueprint of God, we know, is all shall be thus blessed also. :cloud9:
Quote from: marie glen on December 30, 2018, 03:58:21 PM
Amen JH! When Jesus used the phrase "that your joy may be full".. He actually meant it! ...peace and joy unfading.. It's a peace and a joy that no matter what outward circumstances always keeps fountaining.. Knowing the truth of UR, trusting God / His character.. knowing the REAL him, is enduring peace and joy. We are very blessed. And the blueprint of God, we know, is all shall be thus blessed also. :cloud9:
:banana:
I'm from the UK. Several years ago I was having dinner with my auntie who was a committed Christian (she was converted by Billy Graham in the 1950s at one of his preaching events in England) and she told me to tell my elderly father about the faith before he died so that he is saved or else he'd go to hell for not knowing Jesus. I was surprised and upset. I then told her I was very upset about being told to believe or go to hell at age 16 and that I said I refused to believe people go to hell as I found it too cruel. My auntie then ordered, bought and gave me the CD recording of Erasing Hell by Francis Chan and I listened only to a few minutes of the CD. Francis seemed compassionate but his message was "I wish I didn't have to believe it but there is a hell and you have to believe it." I stopped listening to the CD and gave it back to my auntie. I saw Billy Graham too in the 1980s after a Christian friend invited me to another of his preaching events and I wasn't that impressed with what he said.
My auntie died in 2015 and God bless her soul. I loved my auntie, she was a lovely person but the subject of hell caused us to disagree. God bless Billy Graham who died last year though I didn't agree with him. God bless my father who died in 2016 who was not religious.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 01, 2019, 06:56:43 AM
Quote from: marie glen on December 30, 2018, 03:58:21 PM
Amen JH! When Jesus used the phrase "that your joy may be full".. He actually meant it! ...peace and joy unfading.. It's a peace and a joy that no matter what outward circumstances always keeps fountaining.. Knowing the truth of UR, trusting God / His character.. knowing the REAL him, is enduring peace and joy. We are very blessed. And the blueprint of God, we know, is all shall be thus blessed also. :cloud9:
:banana:
To write on the joy talked about, if you notice, Jesus says that His joy may be in us. It is not just joy from us, but that we have His joy. The ultimate fulfillment is to be one with Him and one with the Father, just as He and the Father are one...
Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 25, 2019, 03:01:18 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 01, 2019, 06:56:43 AM
Quote from: marie glen on December 30, 2018, 03:58:21 PM
Amen JH! When Jesus used the phrase "that your joy may be full".. He actually meant it! ...peace and joy unfading.. It's a peace and a joy that no matter what outward circumstances always keeps fountaining.. Knowing the truth of UR, trusting God / His character.. knowing the REAL him, is enduring peace and joy. We are very blessed. And the blueprint of God, we know, is all shall be thus blessed also. :cloud9:
:banana:
To write on the joy talked about, if you notice, Jesus says that His joy may be in us. It is not just joy from us, but that we have His joy. The ultimate fulfillment is to be one with Him and one with the Father, just as He and the Father are one...
Amen to both !! It becomes a very powerful and growing beautiful relationship , that come from a just small seed of faith !!
Quote from: Joanna on April 25, 2019, 02:00:20 AM
I'm from the UK. Several years ago I was having dinner with my auntie who was a committed Christian (she was converted by Billy Graham in the 1950s at one of his preaching events in England) and she told me to tell my elderly father about the faith before he died so that he is saved or else he'd go to hell for not knowing Jesus. I was surprised and upset. I then told her I was very upset about being told to believe or go to hell at age 16 and that I said I refused to believe people go to hell as I found it too cruel. My auntie then ordered, bought and gave me the CD recording of Erasing Hell by Francis Chan and I listened only to a few minutes of the CD. Francis seemed compassionate but his message was "I wish I didn't have to believe it but there is a hell and you have to believe it." I stopped listening to the CD and gave it back to my auntie. I saw Billy Graham too in the 1980s after a Christian friend invited me to another of his preaching events and I wasn't that impressed with what he said.
My auntie died in 2015 and God bless her soul. I loved my auntie, she was a lovely person but the subject of hell caused us to disagree. God bless Billy Graham who died last year though I didn't agree with him. God bless my father who died in 2016 who was not religious.
I too got down on my knees and prayed to God after hearing a Billy Graham message on the radio when I was around 15. it was a message of "being left behind" which put the "fear of death" into me. That was back around 1971 or 1972, it wasn't until 2005 when I actually experience a touch to my heart that changed my whole life and in 2007 when I was introduced to the possibility of "all would be saved" that my heart came alive to "forgiveness" and only now can I fully understand the full potential of the
"POWER" of the" forgiveness of sin" (a judgment "FOR" mankind) compared to the "power" of "unforgiveness" (a judgment "AGAINST" mankind) that I can even come close to be able to LOVE others the way God loves us.
IMO
the "forgiveness" of sin gives life
WHEREAS
"unforgiveness" brings death