Will

[lomarah]

Awesome.

[Illuin]

Illium, you quoted me in the post. So it appeared that you were speaking to me.

I once heard it said that, "God leaves the specks for people with logs to stumble over". We all have our specks and logs.

If you are quoting me in your post, I assume you are responding to me in some measure, so I responded to you. If I misinterpreted what you were saying i apologize

Your assumption was incorrect. But I certainly accept your apology on the grounds that we keep the discussion focused on the doctrines themselves from now on, rather than the person.

If you disagree; refute it Scripturally, not personally.:dbook:  You can critique the very same points by Scripturally testing the doctrinal positions themselves rather than impugning the person who brought up that doctrinal position.

Back to topic -  :thanks:

[VineBranch]

If the entire universe of "beings" is of a fabric(as I believe, which means nothing either LOL, but if it is :o), we are all interwoven. What child would not be devastated to know they were not important to their father and mother and brother and sisters and friends.

I didn't say we weren't important, I said

I am important and relevant to God, because He is who is, not because I am who I am.

I am desperately important to God, but it is God who makes me important, I am not important because of myself.

[VineBranch]

WELL..THE FAILING PART...REALIZING BY YOUR OWN WILL YOU CAN DO NOTHING..IS THE VANITY YOU WERE

  SUBJECTED TO[THAT NO FLESH BOAST]  FOR BEFORE EITHER ONE HAD DONE EVIL OR GOOD..IN ORDER THAT

  THE CHOOSING WOULD BE DEPENDANT ON GOD..AND NOT ON HIM WISHING OR DESIRING...........[OR MAN'S WILL]

AND NOT GOD'S.

  AND REGARDING FREE WILL DOCTRINE BEING AN ERROR.......UPON WHICH MANY MISUNDERSTANDINGS/ERRORS

COME FROM.  THIS IS TRUE IN ANY MATTER AND WE ARE TOLD TO BE CAREFUL HOW WE BUILD..FOR STRAW/WOOD ETC
 
IS PERISHABLE NOT THE ETERNAL..AND IT DOES CAUSE LOSS OF YOUR PORTION IN THE HOLY CITY[LIGHT]

  ACTUALLY WHEN HE COMES AND WAGES WAR IN RIGHTEOUS AND TRUTH THE SWORD OUT OF HIS MOUTH

SEPERATES AND DESTROYS THE FALSE PROPHET FROM THE TRUE,THE BEAST/CARNAL FROM THE SPIRITUAL


   HIS DOING THESE THINGS FOR THOSE WHO HE TEACHES IN THIS REALM...AS PREPARING THEM TO RULE AND JUDGE

RIGHTLY..IT IS PARAMOUNT THEY REALIZE IT WAS NOT OF THEIR OWN WILL..BUT HIS IN THEM CAUSING THEM TO WISH AND

TO DO HIS WILL...YOU HAVE NO LIFE IN YOUR OWN WILL[VANITY] YOU MUST REMAIN IN HIS WILL/FATHER'S WILL

TO HAVE LIFE[YOU CAN DO NOTHING[VANITY] OF YOURSELVES...REMAIN IN ME..THEN YOU CAN BEAR FRUIT

Sheila, I'm sorry that seems self contradictory, could you explain paragraph two in light of paragraph three?  I know I missed something, maybe could help me see it.

[sheila]

SURE...COULD YOU BE MORE PRECISE WHAT YOU SEE AS CONTRADICTORY........

[CHB]

It is only when one comes to the realization there is no free-will, that he is truly free.

• John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Yes!!! amen. As long as we feel we have free will we feel we have to DO something that makes us to be in bondage. Free will is a WORK in and of itself.

chb

[VineBranch]

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain Sheila, I appreciate this.

AND REGARDING FREE WILL DOCTRINE BEING AN ERROR.......UPON WHICH MANY MISUNDERSTANDINGS/ERRORS

COME FROM

This seems like you  are agreeing that there is free-will.

TO HAVE LIFE[YOU CAN DO NOTHING[VANITY] OF YOURSELVES...REMAIN IN ME..THEN YOU CAN BEAR FRUIT

This seems like you are denying that there is free-will.

Could you please show me what I missed?

[VineBranch]

Yes!!! amen. As long as we feel we have free will we feel we have to DO something that makes us to be in bondage. Free will is a WORK in and of itself.
chb

HUH? :Chinscratch:

[sheila]

 WELL..I JUST LOST A WHOLE POST!!  WHERE IS  FREE WILL.. WHEN YOU ARE SUBJECTED TO VANITY? WHERE IS FREE WILL

WHEN,YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME,BUT I CHOSE YOU?

[Molly]

If there is no human 'will' capable of determining the outcome of anything in a meaningful way, would it make a difference?  If it would make a difference, why?

If God were to come and me one day and say "You don't have what people call free-will; I created you to love you and have you love me.  I created the universe because it pleased me to do so, and I created you because it pleased me to so as well."  The only reason I can think of that might be upsetting is that my ego would have taken a hit.

A few months ago I told a friend that I had come to the realization that I was loved, and cherished, and valued, but what I was not was necessary.  Again, the only reason I could think of that that might upset someone is that it is an ego hit.

Do we have to be necessary, or relevant?  God created me because it pleased Him to do so.  God is sui generis, I am not.  God is God, I am not.  Is it so frightening to think that in and of myself, I don't matter?  Is it so frightening to think what I do isn't some how needed or important?

A child may be given a tiny plastic steering wheel in a car seat, and may look out the window and turn that wheel, but no one except the child thinks s/he is actually driving the car.  I matter because God says so, and for no other reason.  I don't need 'free-will' anymore to make me feel important, or relevant.  I am important and relevant to God, because He is who is, not because I am who I am.  I guess in the same way all gold is gold, all dross is dross.

But you do matter.  You, as the individual that you are, matter to God.

Look at the birds. They don't plant or harvest or store food in barns, for your heavenly Father feeds them. And aren't you far more valuable to him than they are?
--Mat 6:26



Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose.--Jer 1:5



Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

Psalm 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.



Psalm 1:6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

1 Corinthians 8:3 But the man who loves God is known by God.

[VineBranch]

But you do matter.  You, as the individual that you are, matter to God.

But that's what I said Molly ...

I matter because God says so, and for no other reason.

[eaglesway]

I would think you matter because you are you. Do we all forget that we were "created" by the Father?

WELL..I JUST LOST A WHOLE POST!!  WHERE IS  FREE WILL.. WHEN YOU ARE SUBJECTED TO VANITY? WHERE IS FREE WILL

WHEN,YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME,BUT I CHOSE YOU?

:o)

When you were chosen to become FREE and to set the WHOLE CREATION FREE AS WELL :o)

[CHB]

Yes!!! amen. As long as we feel we have free will we feel we have to DO something that makes us to be in bondage. Free will is a WORK in and of itself.
chb

HUH? :Chinscratch:

I think I understand this but it is really hard for me to explain. Hope this makes sense.

Free will is associated with works. Anytime you have free will you are on your own so to speak because "free will" means without restraint. Anytime the scriptures seem to say it is our wills that make something happen then it comes down to works. If we have works then we are under bondage.
Notice: CHOOSE this day. WORK out your own salvation. He that OVERCOMETH. I could go on and on.

Go back to Cain and Able. Cain WORKED with his own two hands to produce a sacrifice to God.  Able used the sacrifice that God provided. You might not think that this is relevant but I see a works verses grace in action here.

CHB

[eaglesway]

Free will does not necessarily mean without restraint. Nor does it mean you are on your own. I may guide my child into making sensible choices, without totally taking over his decision making. I can stop him at certain points where I deem it necessary, in order to prevent his hurting himself or someone else. Yet, if I make every decision for him- he will never learn anything, nor will he be able to choose, or create, any other destiny than something I make him pursue.

This, to me, is not the nature of God's sovereign will.

My will is free within certain limitations. For instance- I do not choose to die. So what! I will die. I can choose not to pray or to pray- God will not force my hand. I will reap the benefits of my work, or I will lay down and sleep and starve- up to me.

God will not pick me up by the scruff of my neck and put a shovel in my hand. He may lead someone towards me who is hiring diggers. I can choose to work or not. I can choose to love my enemies or I can choose to hate them. I am free in regards to all these things.

Choose ye this day who you shall serve. No don't, you can't, you have "no free will"- Draw near to God and He will draw near to you- No you can't, you have no free will.

There are measures and degrees of freedom and bondage. IMO, We are moving towards total freedom because God set the wheels in motion aions ago that will bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God.He tends to His work every day, drawing, leading, at times compelling - and it is all beyond the scope of our full understanding- seen through a glass darkly. IMO we will understand it better by and by :o)

[CHB]

God set the wheels in motion aions ago that will bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Absolutely!! This is the answer to it all.

CHB

[jabcat]

IMO, people obviously have all sorts of definitions and thoughts about what "free will" is.  For me, personally, if a will is truly free, it has absolutely no constraints.  It's totally up to the individual. I believe hard-core Armenian [label  :punish:] free will believers see it that way - until perhaps "pinned down" on what they really mean in light of God's sovereignty.  Many folks then explain, "well, I believe we have "free will" to this or that point, then God..."  I do believe there's a large group in mainstream that stick with it though, by saying "it's your choice to go to hell.  You didn't want God in your life.  He didn't send you there, you sent yourself there".   :thumbdown:

But many do use it for various shades and degrees of describing man's will, i.e. our ability given and allowed by God to make certain choices, while also taking into account that God intervenes, influences, and ultimately does "get His way", etc.  (eaglesway for example)

I've said before, I like to describe it simply as man's will and God's will, and how those interact.  I find it interesting that since we've decided to "allow" this on the boards, we often seem stuck on trying to describe what we really believe, and terms still get in the way.  I believe it must truly be one of the most divisive, hardest to explain doctrines in the church.  Of course, probably still not even close to the understanding of God saving all.    :2c:   :dunno2:

[Molly]

But you do matter.  You, as the individual that you are, matter to God.

But that's what I said Molly ...

I matter because God says so, and for no other reason.

well, what other reason is there?

You say this is a blow to your ego?  Is there another reason you matter that would be better?

[jabcat]

I've been thinking.  I'd guess we might be surprised to realize how much most of us really believe similarly about this topic.

Given that there are many possible various degrees of the following, does anyone disagree with,

man makes choices
man has a will
God is in control
God has a will
God influences man's life
God's will will ultimately be done? 

IMO, to not believe any of those, takes a pretty extreme view either way.   :2c:

[Molly]

Man's will may be more tied to the flesh.

It's certainly influenced by the flesh.

So maybe it is more of a carnal thing.

I still make decisions and choices.

But, now, it seems, my choices are more influenced by God.

Certainly by my understanding of God's wishes.

And, my life is full of much more peace.

I do not feel, however, that I am on autopilot, with someone else making the choices.

I do feel, however, that someone else, [someone good], is influencing the outcome.

[jabcat]

Man's will may be more tied to the flesh.

It's certainly influenced by the flesh.

So maybe it is more of a carnal thing.

I still make decisions and choices.

But, now, it seems, my choices are more influenced by God.

Certainly by my understanding of God's wishes.

And, my life is full of much more peace.

I do not feel, however, that I am on autopilot, with someone else making the choices.

I do feel, however, that someone else, [someone good], is influencing the outcome.

:first:

[VineBranch]

Free will is associated with works. Anytime you have free will you are on your own so to speak because "free will" means without restraint. Anytime the scriptures seem to say it is our wills that make something happen then it comes down to works. If we have works then we are under bondage.
Notice: CHOOSE this day. WORK out your own salvation. He that OVERCOMETH. I could go on and on.

Go back to Cain and Able. Cain WORKED with his own two hands to produce a sacrifice to God.  Able used the sacrifice that God provided. You might not think that this is relevant but I see a works verses grace in action here.

If I choose NOT to produce a work, would that then disqualify what I do as an aspect of Free-Will?  Is this something akin to the physics definition of work:  no movement, no work, regardless of energy spent.

[VineBranch]

You say this is a blow to your ego?  Is there another reason you matter that would be better?

With all due respect Molly, that's not what I said.  What I said was "The only reason I can think of that might be upsetting is that my ego would have taken a hit".

I didn't say it was blow to my ego.  I speculated that if the situation were to create offence, the reason would be that there was a blow to someone's ego?

[VineBranch]

I've been thinking.  I'd guess we might be surprised to realize how much most of us really believe similarly about this topic.

Given that there are many possible various degrees of the following, does anyone disagree with,

man makes choices
man has a will
God is in control
God has a will
God influences man's life
God's will will ultimately be done? 

IMO, to not believe any of those, takes a pretty extreme view either way.   :2c:

Party Pooper:

I was still enjoying the show.  I have three sandwiches left in this picnic and you go and get all practical and logical on us.  Harumph. :sigh:

[jabcat]

 :Oops:

Ah, I imagine it'll carry right on along.  :)

[misszoolander]

I've been thinking.  I'd guess we might be surprised to realize how much most of us really believe similarly about this topic.

Given that there are many possible various degrees of the following, does anyone disagree with,

man makes choices
man has a will
God is in control
God has a will
God influences man's life
God's will will ultimately be done? 

IMO, to not believe any of those, takes a pretty extreme view either way.   :2c:

Reminds me of Jacob and Esau. God influenced both lives, which led Esau down a path of hating his brother, however the end result after many years: Esau ran to Jacob, in a act of not only forgiveness, but love. What does Jacob say? "If I have found favor in your eyes, accept this gift from me. For to see your face is like seeing the face of God,"

This reminds me of the prodigal son story. Interesting to note that Jacob submits himself to Esau by bowing down seven times, similar to how the son was wanting to submit himself as a servant to the father.

My point is this "If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother." John Chap 4:20

The will of God is like a force, it is the love we have for others, by loving them and forgiving them we are doing Gods will. However it sometimes take an act of forgiveness for two individuals to know that they love each other. In the end of times, people that resisted love, and hanged onto hate will be face to face with the Creator, and when faced with his love directly they will realize this was their life lesson all along. The will of God is for everyone to abandon their shackles that separate them from this love so everyone can be one in God. I believe our choices are our own, but I also believe that God knows every single choice I make in this world, and he is going to use the choices I make to bring me not only closer to the truth, but help me understand the truth. I believe Esau learnt this lesson, maybe the hard way but he learnt it nevertheless.

Even if I only make ghastly, negative hateful choices, God knows exactly what it will take to help me appreciate the worlds life lesson- the love of God