I've had this question running through my head today. IF all will be saved, including all of our ansestors etc.. how will there be room for all of us on earth when heaven is here on earth ??? There will be trillions of us? will the earth grow in size? am I wrong thinking that gods will is for heaven to be on earth. Am I missing something? thanks!
what are your thoughts??
Adam. :banana:
Two items:
I think it says in the Revelation, that in the Kingdom Age, there will be no sea. That means much more land area for people.
The earth has gotten bigger since before the flood, or at some point since the Creation. See this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6AVWE7huBQ
"The kingdom of God is within you." Sounds like it doesn't take up much space at all! :)
We forget that the kingdom is spiritual don't we? Don't worry about room - there are mansions enough for each of us!!
The LORD= room.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 26, 2013, 10:59:24 AM
Two items:
I think it says in the Revelation, that in the Kingdom Age, there will be no sea. That means much more land area for people.
You know, Lazarus Short, I've never thought of that.. my reasoning has run along the lines of, after this issue of good and evil (life and nonlife,death) has been settled and deeply etched upon every heart, mind and psyche, I've found myself wondering if God will not bring other planets to life in the universe.. I mean, why not? Itsa big universe.. Certainly would shoot in the foot that claim by some that 'heaven' will be boring (as if it ever could be!!)
I wonder how much bigger the earth will be with no oceans? does the oceans cover 2/3's of the earth? How intriguing! :thumbsup:
In fact, Marie, as co-heirs with Jesus the Christ, we will gain access to the entire new heavens. Now our present heavens contain about 100 billion galaxies, each with millions/billions of stars. That's a LOT of real estate...
We'll certainly have different bodies since almost all life is totally dependent on the oceans and the plant life in the ocean that gives us 90 % of the oxygen in the atmosphere. Without the oceans, it would be a very short time before all of earth would be rock and desert.(unless supernaturally sustained)Since the lion is going to lie down with the lamb, apparently there will be animals(sounds like heaven!) but it also seems like every creature (including humans)will be vegetarian(sounds like hell!) :laugh:
In the new Earth, fruits and veggies will taste so good, you'll forget all about that gross animal flesh.
fruits and veggies are going to have to watered supernaturally also. Without the oceans, this planet would be a lifeless dustball.
I think I already could live on oranges, grapefruits, bananas and plums. (orange and grapefruit grove about 60 feet from my back door)
I think the New Earth will have the mist rising up from the ground at night to water everything, as it was before the Great Flood. Now where did all that ocean water come from? There are lots of theories, but my own runs like this: We have the Earth, a planet that always had water, but at some time in the not-too-distant-past, it got a lot more. Then we have Mars, which once had water, but now has very little...makes me wonder. If Mars ever got too close to Earth, the water would "seek its own level," and there you go.
He shall bring us all out into a 'roomy" place.. He tells Jerusalem above to 'widen out'
her tent stakes.
Hi,
I hope He gives Manatees legs or something. Love those guys. Have to dust off vegetarian cook book tonight since me and son are going it along this week. Those skills sound like they may be handy in future.
I trust God with it all. On given day when world shows itself as He said it would be at this time, these conversations always seem refreshing and brighten day which is rainy here. Can only try to imagine. Wow.
Thanks.
I personally don't think we need to live all on one level do we? If you built Jerusalem up, say five miles high and God gave you the ability to use gravity as you pleased, how many people could fit in one building five miles high? How many five mile high buildings could God make? How many five mile high buildings could dance on the head of a pin. Okay, I get it. LOL
Not too long ago, I read an analysis by someone who calculated how much acreage a 1500 x 1500 x 1500 mile city would have - it would be vast.
Oh man.. where are those "like" buttons? :cheerleader:
Let's see, at about 10 feet per floor, that about 570 floors per mile and at 1500 miles thats 855,000 stories high. It would also extend way, way past the current breathable atmosphere ( like about 1497 miles past) :laugh:
Jeff, you are comparing the old Earth with the new Earth - it's apples and oranges. BTW, where would such a city be on the Earth's surface (old or new)? If it were in the equator, it would badly affect the Earth's spin, so I quote:
Psalms 48:2 [KJV II]
Beaitiful on high, the joy of the whole earth is Mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
Now, there is only ONE place on the surface of this Earth where the North has sides, and it is the same place where a truly huge city would not unbalance the spin: the North Pole. I believe that is where the New Jerusalem will be located.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 28, 2013, 02:13:26 AM
Now, there is only ONE place on the surface of this Earth where the North has sides, and it is the same place where a truly huge city would not unbalance the spin: the North Pole. I believe that is where the New Jerusalem will be located.
Oh great, now I need a parka to go to Jerusalem. How about the South Pole? At least it's land mass. How many toilets you think we'll need?
Funny VB - as if the south pole would be warmer cuz it's in the south. :laughing7:
I always wondered why mountain tops got snow on them since they were that much closer to the sun :dontknow: :laughing7:
Just like ded, VB, you are thinking of the new Earth in terms of the old Earth. It will (I'm sure) be far better, with fair weather, good climate, greenery everywhere, no thorns or thistles, friendly animals, etc, etc, etc. A "parka"? What's that?
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 28, 2013, 06:19:05 PM
Just like ded, VB, you are thinking of the new Earth in terms of the old Earth. It will (I'm sure) be far better, with fair weather, good climate, greenery everywhere, no thorns or thistles, friendly animals, etc, etc, etc. A "parka"? What's that?
A Parka is a heavy, often lined coat, with a hood which usually has a draw string so you can pull it close to your face thereby protecting it from freezing winds. A lot of the hoods have a fur lining as well. I guess this is to break up the wind which could come in from the side.
VB, I was meaning that we may just forget what a parka is, like the fellow who gave up the sea, and carried an oar inland until people asked him what it was. He stayed there, knowing he was now far enough from the sea.
Laz said, ".Just like ded, VB, you are thinking of the new Earth in terms of the old Earth. It will be far better, with fair weather, good climate, greenery everywhere, no thorns or thistles, friendly animals, etc, etc, etc. "
..and how are you sure, Laz? :dontknow:
For me, it's hard to have my mind consider and reason spiritual things, when I have been so long raised with natural things. God is Spirit and Jesus said the words I speak are spirit, they are life. When I close my eyes and consider what it would be like alive in spirit, part of all in all in the New Jerusalem, I just receive a comforting peace.
As for where? The climate? The food? Well, I receive nothing but a blank and am very satisfied with the nothing.
It's hard for me, at this place at this time to compare things to things I know little of to compare with.
1Co 2:13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,
imo :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 05, 2013, 05:11:55 PM
..and how are you sure, Laz? :dontknow:
Well, in the new Earth, the Adamic curse is lifed, is it not, and everything reverts to way it was before. To me, that means no more death. No more death implies no need for defense mechanisms like teeth, fangs, horns, antlers, claws, etc as weapons, fast running speeds, protective shells, and all the behavior that goes with it - therefore, friendly animals. The same applies to plants, and the thorns and thistles, which God specifically mentioned, will be gone or transformed into nicer plants. No plants will be poisonous.
Did not God say it? The lion lying down with the lamb and eating straw like an ox? The child putting its hand in the viper's den and not being hurt? Blot out the Adamic curse, the effects of Noah's flood, eye the final part of the Revelation, and you get the idea of a whole new (and better!) order of existence.
I will admit ded, that my vision of the new Earth is biased by SDA literature...
Didn't mean to put you on the spot friend.
The only thing I'm sure of in the past is what is written in the Bible. The only thing I'm sure of in the now, is my perception of what is happening now. The only thing I'm sure of in the future is that this mortal will put on immortality and we shall be like Christ. The other stuff in the future I'm not sure of because some is allegorical, some poetic, some imagery, and some interpretive prophecy. :Peace2:
No problem, as I like to share my vision of what is in store for us, and I think my words do not do it justice...
It gets back to a finite words and meanings trying to describe the infinite. John was an eye witness and all he could do was say "it was like" "it was like" "it was like" for their were no words... indescribable.
Yes, even Jesus would say, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..."
BTW LAZ,
Just got back from store picking up your ingredients for the bean dip. Will let you know :dontknow:
In numerous Scriptures God has promised a NEW earth not a renewed, reupholstered old earth. In fact, as some here have already mentioned, by converting cubits, (1.5 ft) the NEW jerusalem in Rev., you would see that the old earth couldn't support the New Jerusalem.
Isaiah 66:22-23
King James Version (KJV)
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
I could cite more... :eek:
Dave, a renewed, reupholstered old earth, or a new-from-the-ground-up earth, I'd be happy with either, but yes, new-from-the-ground-up sounds like the way God does things.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 05, 2013, 05:04:16 PM
VB, I was meaning that we may just forget what a parka is, like the fellow who gave up the sea, and carried an oar inland until people asked him what it was. He stayed there, knowing he was now far enough from the sea.
Nice ... what's a gym?
A gym - that's a place you drive your car to, and where you park as close as possible, for the purpose of exercising.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 06, 2013, 08:35:43 AM
A gym - that's a place you drive your car to, and where you park as close as possible, for the purpose of exercising.
I didn't see that coming - HOW TRUE, and then PAY for the execise to boot :LH:
I remember looking up the word gym when I was in high school; the dictionary I used said it came from the greek word naked, and a gymnasium was a place to exercise naked (I'm guessing they meant nude). Now that I've seen what age has done to my body, I'm trying as hard as I can to expunge that definition from English. This is one time I'm advocating not going back to the original for the proper meaning!!! :laughing7:
yeah. the greeks loved working out and training and competing naked(nude)
The first Olympics were held entirely in the nude but women were not allowed to participate or even be spectators. :Peace2: :2c:
Well, I personally imagine the earth pretty much the same, with smaller oceans perhaps. I can't imagine not getting to explore the deep sea since I never have had a chance to do it in this lifetime. Swim with the dolphins, whales, and even sharks, play with the octopi and starfish et al . Water skiing, with non pollution boats, lol. Imagine just making the Sahara and all the deserts lush and green and all the inhospitable, uninhabitable areas/islands of the world, the mountains. I think that would make enough land for everyone to live even not considering the capability of perhaps visiting all the planets known and unknown. Why would God have created all this and them if we were not going to enjoy them fully in the future? That's my personal fantasy, lol.
Quote from: scarletwren on March 31, 2013, 01:28:47 AM
Well, I personally imagine the earth pretty much the same, with smaller oceans perhaps. I can't imagine not getting to explore the deep sea since I never have had a chance to do it in this lifetime. Swim with the dolphins, whales, and even sharks, play with the octopi and starfish et al . Water skiing, with non pollution boats, lol. Imagine just making the Sahara and all the deserts lush and green and all the inhospitable, uninhabitable areas/islands of the world, the mountains. I think that would make enough land for everyone to live even not considering the capability of perhaps visiting all the planets known and unknown. Why would God have created all this and them if we were not going to enjoy them fully in the future? That's my personal fantasy, lol.
Maybe not such a fantasy...it may just be our future. Remember, our inheritance as co-heirs with
Christ is a share of the entire created cosmos of some 100 billion galaxies, each with billions of stars, etc...
I also used to wonder that. With man, it may not be possible, but with God all things are possible. :HeartThrob:
cool bit of info!
http://innertech.com/blog/2008/01/end-time-population-signals-the-end-of-the-age/
This man tells us not to look through the "dark glasses" of Paul and appears to discredit him. I am not buying that. I am refering to music man's link.
Quote from: musicman on February 26, 2013, 10:07:18 AM
I've had this question running through my head today. IF all will be saved, including all of our ansestors etc.. how will there be room for all of us on earth when heaven is here on earth ??? There will be trillions of us? will the earth grow in size? am I wrong thinking that gods will is for heaven to be on earth. Am I missing something? thanks!
what are your thoughts??
Adam. :banana:
Simple.
Bunk beds :Chinscratch:
http://www.gciweb.org/documents/Misc%20Studies/Teenagers/New%20Jerusalem%20_An%20Engineering%20Feasibility%20Study%20-%20Mike%20Daily.pdf (http://www.gciweb.org/documents/Misc%20Studies/Teenagers/New%20Jerusalem%20_An%20Engineering%20Feasibility%20Study%20-%20Mike%20Daily.pdf)
Oh my goodness Bunk Beds, of course :Peace2:
But I have another take on all of this that is somewhat difficult to prove Scripturally yet Father has given more course to consider it.
First off, we only know what Father has given us to know, which in His terms is very little. Secondly, just about every person born into this world has a deep longing a desire for something that cannot be found in this world.
I am speaking of reincarnation (which might be taboo on this board.) However, let us consider this for just a moment. What if there are X number of Spirits and Heaven knows we all have one and I am working daily to connect with mine. Suppose that at the end of the current age, it is the spirit that gives account, having lived Perhpas many multiples of lives.
This of course would mean Millions if not Billions of less "people"
It might also explain why there is no marriage.
Just a thought (there is a Scripture in Job that hints of Father sending people back to Earth many times)
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
I understand your "billions less".
But right now the earth is full with people that are alive right now.
Take cities like NY. People living as sardines in a tin can. If all people in the US mega-cities got decent homes with a nice garden the USA may be to small....
It also means God has to manage lack of resources. Space in this example. I think there won't be anything besides evil that's not available in vast quantities.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 15, 2013, 05:44:52 AM
I understand your "billions less".
But right now the earth is full with people that are alive right now.
Take cities like NY. People living as sardines in a tin can. If all people in the US mega-cities got decent homes with a nice garden the USA may be to small....
It also means God has to manage lack of resources. Space in this example. I think there won't be anything besides evil that's not available in vast quantities.
Not hard to figure the need for a New Earth :dsunny:
I was just throwing out a thought or two :HeartThrob:
Rev 21 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"
[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=NIV#fen-NIV-31055a)] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them.They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
4 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes.There will be no more death'
[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=NIV#fen-NIV-31058b)] or mourning or crying or pain,for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
It's going to be spectacular!!!!
Love Julie
Julie:
If reincarnation (aka reincarceration) were true, then Jesus would have had a much different line to say to Nicodemus. Elsewhere, Jesus said that if something was not so, He would have said so - so I see His conversation with Nicodemus in the same light.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 15, 2013, 02:39:47 AM
Oh my goodness Bunk Beds, of course :Peace2:
But I have another take on all of this that is somewhat difficult to prove Scripturally yet Father has given more course to consider it.
First off, we only know what Father has given us to know, which in His terms is very little. Secondly, just about every person born into this world has a deep longing a desire for something that cannot be found in this world.
I am speaking of reincarnation (which might be taboo on this board.) However, let us consider this for just a moment. What if there are X number of Spirits and Heaven knows we all have one and I am working daily to connect with mine. Suppose that at the end of the current age, it is the spirit that gives account, having lived Perhpas many multiples of lives.
All that does is devalue the life you have now, your identity. Your spirit is then being held accountable for things which your current self does not even know about, nor can access unless you have this special power aka psychics. I am one person, not part of many. I look at my friends and wonder, 'are they really them?' When they die, that's it. They just become absorbed into a higher spirit (Higher Self in the New Age Movement). That's not a way of life I wish upon anyone. I dream of living in a peaceful world which God has restored, where one day, I can look upon a valley or a horizon, in a world with no death and decay, with family and friends at my side and God's glory shining throughout. If reincarnation were true, then who am I? Who will I be with? What is the point of living this life? The only spirit we should be working to connect with is God's Holy Spirit. Anything else is a deception and focuses purely on SELF and not God. The works I do are a manifestation of God working inside me, and I do for Him, not a Spirit which will later be held accountable.
If God sends someone back to Earth many times, imagine my horror when I was told by many psychics that my mother will be absorbed into a Higher Spirit, that she was many people before, and I am the same. I won't be KingKenny in the afterlife, but a Higher Self with lots of personalities. I couldn't reignite my relationship with my mother, because I am just a massive Spirit. No identity, no idea who anyone is, just accept that they'll be reincarnated into someone else.
God can bring forth a New Earth, and there is an entire universe out there which we go out and inhabit. Plenty of room for everyone.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 15, 2013, 07:00:32 AM
Julie:
If reincarnation (aka reincarceration) were true, then Jesus would have had a much different line to say to Nicodemus. Elsewhere, Jesus said that if something was not so, He would have said so - so I see His conversation with Nicodemus in the same light.
Hi Laz, without a doubt a deep subject but certainly one spoken about in Scripture. By know means am I telling, I am just showing what certainly appears to hint towards reincarnation. :girlheart:
The episode in the Bible where Jesus identified John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet is one of the clearest statements which Jesus made concerning reincarnation.
| "For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come." (Matthew 11:13-14) |
In the above passage, Jesus clearly identifies John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet. Later in Matthew's gospel Jesus reiterates it.
"And the disciples asked him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?'
"But he answered them and said, 'Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.'
"Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:10-13) |
Concerning other Bible verses that refer to reincarnation, the following passage is a clear statement:
| "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on Earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country - a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them." (Hebrews 11:13-16) |
The above passage describes people who had an opportunity to return to Earth after death. This could only come about through reincarnation. Continuing on:
| "Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection." (Hebrews 11:32-35) |
In the Book of Amos, an excellent reference to reincarnation can be found. It describes God taking the dead to heaven then bringing them back to Earth.
| "Though they dig down to the depths of the grave, from there my hand will take them. Though they climb up to the heavens, from there I will bring them down." (Amos 9:2) |
In the Book of Job, Job wonders if he will live again after death:
| "If a person dies will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come." (Job 14:14) |
Job asks if there is life after death. He answers his own question by stating that he will live again when he is renewed. According to the Hebrew dictionary, the word translated "renewal" is chaliyphah {khal-ee-faw'}. Its meaning is:
(1) a change, change of garments, replacement
(2) changing, varying course of life
(3) relays
(4) relief from death. In my opinion, this definition fits the concept of reincarnation than it does resurrection.
In the Book of Psalm, David rejoices that he will be rescued after death:
| "Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand." (Psalm 16:9-11) |
Much more here: [size=78%]http://http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html (http://http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html)[/size]
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
KingKenny, all valid points. :HeartThrob:
(Job. 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Job.%201.21)) - "And he said, 'Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return there. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord,'" (NASB)
- (Eccl. 5:15 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Eccl.%205.15)) - "As he had come naked from his mother's womb, so will he return as he came. He will take nothing from the fruit of his labor that he can carry in his hand."
There are many such oblique references.
I really don't think that this topic will ever gain much traction as each of us can only know what we have been given. Have I lived passed lives, heck I can't remember, but that is not a sound basis to claim that: I have not. :girlheart:
Love Julie
Hi Julie,
I have responded to some of your points below. I've had a number of deep experiences with regard to reincarnation (amongst others) so I can only apologise for my bluntness with regard to the issue. If you've ever watched Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels, I am like him when it comes to it (although I try not to be consumed by the dark side. :laugh:)
In Matthew 11:14, this is important, as it has to be cross-referenced with Luke 1:17
And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." (NIV)
Remember at the Transfiguration, Elijah and Moses represent their respective ministries of the Prophets and Law.
John the Baptist also flatly denies he is Elijah in John 1:21 - Well then, who are you?" they asked. "Are you Elijah?" "No," he replied. "Are you the Prophet we are expecting?" "No." (NLT)
Hebrews 11:15 (opportunity to return) is in reference to the carnal mind. They had an opportunity to return to their old, carnal ways, but they desired a heavenly one.
Renewal and better resurrection all refer to a resurrection, one whereby me and you will die (unless Christ returns, and then we are transformed), and will be resurrected. The same me and you, but we will be like Christ, in the image of God as intended originally in the Garden of Eden.
God loves you JulieTang84, not a higher spirit which encompasses you. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
John 4:14 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."
God is everywhere and I would surly classify as a higher spirit (highest)
Nothing but love for you guys. :HeartThrob:
Kenny there is a deeper me a spirit me, perhaps Julie the Christ that is everything I hope to be.
I belive Jesus the man connected with the Christ in all of us. That he could say that seeing him, one had seen Father.
Can I lil Julie move mountains? No. But the Spirit of Love in me, in us all certainly can. To me, coming as little childrenmeans letting go of the body and living more in Spirit. I have no real concept of what iI need to do other than to love with all I am and Thank Father and all else Goethe joy the bring in my life. :HeartThrob:
Thanks Kenny :girlheart: