What About Christmas?

[Eleutheros]

Season's Greetings Fellow Universaltsts!

I've been drawn into a study of Christmas this year. Sure, I've studied the storied history of Christmas before, most especially while I was in Messianic Judaism, when I celebrated Hanukkah. In that ecclesia the celebration of Christmas was considered akin to apostasy because of the pagan and commercial roots of the traditions that are linked to our modern understanding of Christmas; the same for Easter. But now, for being Eleutheros, I choose to celebrate Christmas in all its glory and history.

This season started for me, as it has for the last fifteen years or so, by first watching A Charlie Brown Christmas sometime after Thanksgiving and weeping my personal tears of joy from the hope within me as I revisit Linus Van Pelt's soliloquy (Luke 2:1-16) delivered in the enduring prose of the KJV.

My heart was now ready to celebrate Christmas in our home.

But, after that expected feeling, something unexpectedly emotional happened as I was finishing a final Fall semester project.

My wife had just cleaned our home and decorated it with the cool Christmas decorations she'd gathered over the years; and so, as I worked on my project, I had playing in the background our large and eclectic collection of Christmas music. Then, amidst the original blues and folk and pop and rock songs of Christmas, and the varied versions of the classical and the sacred and traditional songs of the Birth of Jesus and of Santa Claus and that famous reindeer of his, Sarah Brightman's version of Amazing Grace cued up. I stopped to listen. And as I listened, I began crying.

The words to John Newton's superlative hymn seemed to be speaking to me differently than I'd heard before. I recognized that the emotions I was feeling were like that time - long ago - when I truly repented and allowed the Spirit of Jesus into me; that time, long ago, when I truly accepted Jesus as both my Lord and Savior.

"Why now?" I asked myself. "Why, my soul, are you feeling these emotions of humility and of awe mingled with gratefulness and regret? Why, my soul, are you crying?"

Its answer to me was simple. "Because you need to feel these things. They help you remember from where you came, and who you are now, and of the future your God promised to you and all of your fellow humans in the Words of Christmas."

With that satisfying answer, I felt compelled to revisit the history of Christmas, its origins and traditions, to discover why, at Christmas time, I feel these emotions more keenly than any other time of year.

As I read through the words of others, words that were both for and against Christmas, I reflected on how different the thoughts in my heart are, now, from what they were before when I celebrated Christmas as a Southern Baptist in good standing, raised on Calvinism, then later refused to celebrate it for following Judaism.
For now, in my heart, the difference is that I know that Jesus Christ will bring to fruition exactly what the angel foretold when he said:

"Fear not! For, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people; for unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord! And this shall be a sign unto you; you shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger."
And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, "Glory to God in the highest! And on earth peace, good will toward mankind!"

~

Now, fellow Universalists, I observe that Universalisim is not an organized religion, nor is it a denomination. Instead it is unique in that it seems to resist such large-scale organization exactly because it is not a religion! It is, instead, a loose collection of people who have come to believe one single truth above all others: that Jesus Christ came to reveal the heart of the Father, in all His Love and Power, and to annul the work of the Adversary and restore all mankind - every last one of all human beings who have lived, are living and will be living.
But, apart from that belief, all are free to think for themselves and conclude what they will concerning scripture. Therefore, Universalism cannot form as a religion, and indeed it would be self-defeating if it tried, because the rules of religion require agreement among the adherents; and besides, rules, and the accompanying fear of consequence, only go so far against the precepts of the human heart that lead us into sin. A regeneration is needed to annul those precepts, and that is all that is needed.

So, my fellow Universalist, given this reflection, it occurred to me that I should post this personal reflection as an invitation to all of you to offer up your own thoughts on Christmas, both for and against.

As a Universalist, what do you think of Christmas?

Does its amalgam of the profane celebrations that came before it make its celebration an abomination before God, as some have warned against?

Does its mix of the sacred and profane make it a confusion that is best avoided?

Or does God appreciate the way our modern celebrations bring to the World's collective mind thoughts on  the birth of His only sex-born Son Who came that, through Him, the World might be saved?

What do you think?

And, as a Universalist, what in your heart is different from where your heart was before you believed the truth hidden in plain sight?

As a Universalist, what do you do with Christmas?

[Ross]

As a Universalist, what do you do with Christmas?

I know that my own family will be saved and learn at their appointed time.

Paul says in Romans 13;18 " If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people."

Romans 13;10 " Love does no wrong to it's neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law."

Romans 14;5 " One person regards one day more sacred than another, while another person regards all days the same.
                       EACH PERSON MUST BE FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND."

Romans 14;13 " Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another, but resolve this-
                        never to put an obstacle or a trap in a brother's way."

Romans 14;19 " So then let us pursue what makes for peace and mutual up-building."

Romans 14;22 " The faith that you have keep as your conviction before God.
                         Blessed is the one who has no reason to condemn himself for what he approves."

Romans 15;7 " Therefore accept one another as Christ has also accepted you."

This means, for me, that I celebrate with my family, but could just as equally not celebrate.
Either way we know about Christ but each at our own level, even within my own family.

[bushy]

Eleutheros,
Thanks for that interesting story of how you came to where you are now.

And Ross, that list of verses from Romans pretty much answers what to do about Christmas either way.

For me, the last Christmas my family observed was when I was 5 so I had a bias against it after that. When I was married and 27 we went to a church that was like my second family for 18 years and Christmas was not observed there. But there were some things that I did not like about what that did to the attitude of my kids about those that did celebrate. So now my kids are grown and on their own and they all celebrate it however they want with their families. Now I like this time of year because Christmas bring the earth shaking event of Jesus birth out in the open.

Now since I came to see that the whole world is loved by the Father and that He sent the Son to be the savior of the world, I see everyone way more in the same boat than I used to. We are not saved by figuring things out and being correct on bible doctrine like I was raised. That leads to looking down on others for almost everything they believe different than me and making me feel like I'm  better than them, yuk.  :Ptuwee"

Romans 13;18 " If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people." This means to me don't make a fuss about what others do that I disagree with. We are the ones that look on outward appearance but God looks on the heart.

[Eleutheros]

I know that my own family will be saved and learn at their appointed time.

Paul says in Romans 13;18 " If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people."

Romans 13;10 " Love does no wrong to it's neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law."

Romans 14;5 " One person regards one day more sacred than another, while another person regards all days the same.
                       EACH PERSON MUST BE FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND."

Romans 14;13 " Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another, but resolve this-
                        never to put an obstacle or a trap in a brother's way."

Romans 14;19 " So then let us pursue what makes for peace and mutual up-building."

Romans 14;22 " The faith that you have keep as your conviction before God.
                         Blessed is the one who has no reason to condemn himself for what he approves."

Romans 15;7 " Therefore accept one another as Christ has also accepted you."

This means, for me, that I celebrate with my family, but could just as equally not celebrate.
Either way we know about Christ but each at our own level, even within my own family.

Sometimes, when I list verses, I see connections that I didn't before. So, thanks Ross for listing those verses!

The funny thing about coming to believe that Jesus Christ came to save all men and women is that the stuff (of religion) that I used to agonize over moves out of my focus because I also came to realize that human is not something I was put here to rise above, but something I was put here to become good at being! And those scriptures, listed as they are, help me crystallize my understanding of how to be that good human being I was created to be!

So, for me, celebrating Christmas is a reminder of that First Noel that enabled me to be born anew; a re-birth that led me into being able to enjoy my humanity, freed from sin and thus a condemning conscience, freed from the rules of religion and thus able to live a life of joy, peace and righteousness in holy spirit!

Truly good tidings of great Joy which shall be for all people!

Thanks for your reply, Ross.

I hope you have a great celebration of our Saviors birth with your family.

[Eleutheros]

Eleutheros,
Thanks for that interesting story of how you came to where you are now.

You are welcome. I share from my heart that others might be encouraged to do the same, which you did.

For me, the last Christmas my family observed was when I was 5 so I had a bias against it after that. When I was married and 27 we went to a church that was like my second family for 18 years and Christmas was not observed there. But there were some things that I did not like about what that did to the attitude of my kids about those that did celebrate. So now my kids are grown and on their own and they all celebrate it however they want with their families. Now I like this time of year because Christmas bring the earth shaking event of Jesus birth out in the open.

Now since I came to see that the whole world is loved by the Father and that He sent the Son to be the savior of the world, I see everyone way more in the same boat than I used to. We are not saved by figuring things out and being correct on bible doctrine like I was raised. That leads to looking down on others for almost everything they believe different than me and making me feel like I'm  better than them, yuk.  :Ptuwee"

LOL! "Yuck!" is right!

I will tell you that "hell" was actually the very last thing I looked into as I re-studied the scriptures after understanding that the Geneva/KJV bibles were translated to support the theology of Augustine of Hippo. It was the last thing I studied because I was fearful that I would find the KJV accurate where "hell" was concerned.

Of course I didn't... but, as I understood how that bias was inculcated, I felt my soul becoming disquieted. When I looked into why I felt that disquiet in the face of the truth I was uncovering, I discovered something truly shocking in my heart: I discovered that I liked the idea of an eternal hell of conscious, burning torment, forever separated from God... for as long as I had a way to think myself exempt!

And so I perceive now that what you get with any religion, Christian or not, is a membership in an exclusive club! Which of course - no matter how humble you act, if that's a requirement of your religion -  can't help but make one feel superior to others.

Romans 13;18 " If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people." This means to me don't make a fuss about what others do that I disagree with. We are the ones that look on outward appearance but God looks on the heart.

Yep! And don't you know that He's the One Who knows who's heart is naughty or nice!

So keep on being good, It is after all what we were created to be!

Thank you for your reply. May your time this year be filled with the joy that comes from within.

[trettep]

Cain decided to worship God in his own way but God didn't accept his offering.  Why do we think we should decide how we should worship God?  Isn't our works sin? 

The Year over year celebration of Christmas is celebration of Jesus coming in the flesh.  This mean such celebration brings profit to the flesh.  It is an earthly celebration.  It is sin.

[jabcat]

Everyone is able to "work out their own salvation"..One eats, another abstains.  One considers the day, one considers all days the same.  And we all have an opinion and/or interpretation - and conscience.

[trettep]

Everyone is able to "work out their own salvation"..One eats, another abstains.  One considers the day, one considers all days the same.  And we all have an opinion and/or interpretation - and conscience.

Col 2:16  Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths, 
Col 2:17  which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ; 

Christmas was never an established day decreed by God for observance year after year.  Those things that were, are the ones in context for which we shouldn't judge others about such as the 7 feast days.   Christmas is a vain celebration that doesn't herald anything heavenly or to come. It's actually a celebration of the FLESH which profits nothing.

[jabcat]

I believe if one doesn't feel comfortable celebrating Christmas, that's between them and God.  If someone else does (or participating some way for family reasons, etc.), that's between them and God.  Their walk, whatever season they are in, their conscience.  So perhaps sin for some, not so for others.  I don't believe it's an essential doctrine or clearly spelled out as a commandment.   We ask that POVs, understandings, and opinions  be expressed as such.

[rosered]

I agree with you James [ Jabcat ]  100%  Each must seek out their own salvation , the law is a light and mirror  and the reflection of the things to come .

  The scriptures go on to explain that those whom are weak in faith see everything as sin   and so abstain .. and this is not a bad thing .


Seems those whom are made strong in faith  , are able to become ,''all things to all men ''  even by saving some ,


  where  ever they are coming  from ,  the Law of Liberty   is just that freedom to LOVE   in the Spirit despite the flesh ....

  This is just my opinion [judgement ]  now  at this time ..


GOD will judge  everything in its time ,  true conviction is from the Holy Spirit , we can all agree to this fact/truth   ,

I do believe ..

The motive of the heart is the true test  of what  [spirit ]  has filled it .

And  by Gods grace we  are allowed to change our minds   from the carnal  nature [ adversarial  against the Holy Spirit ] to the mind of Christ  , which is  gracious   and full of mercy
maturing spiritual   in nature   though the experiences  of  the laws of  death and life  ,
  But even Jesus   told James and John when   the city   rejected   Him / the Light  , they desired to send fire down from heaven to destroy them all , and the Lord spoke and said , you do not  know what manner of spirit you are of ... there was NO MERCY  in their judgment/opinion
  So   we are taught LOVE  and that Spirit of LOVE /GOD is what covers the multitude of sin /error  , though patience and long suffering  with mercy and grace , not the spirit   of  violence  and destruction   by the law and ministration of death ..

  Even Jesus told us , Till now , His arrival  of change , the kingdom of God had suffered through violence  till John the Baptist
   

  and we know John the baptist was beheaded for   his witness against sin ,[He represents all the law and prophets of the old testament.  ,,,  that many of us are still under that old  shadow  law or have like Paul said , pressed on to maturity  the LIGHT  [perfection , completing  this course   on taking up  their own  cross   by faith in Christ and His  doing the living works of the Father  by raising the dead to Life in Christ  , as children of the DAY /1000 year reign  Jesus is in power and authority  ]

  but the old  tree of knowledge of good and evil  ,  I believe it is a simile   a comparison of  everyone having to ''loose their heads ''] to put on the mind of Christ to rule over  and gather into Himself everything that exist to fulfill all things  .

  Jesus Christ is the Head and authority  over all things  ... and the righteousness of God ..

  One thing I am learning now is not to judge anything before the time, till the Lord shines HIS    Wisdom /Light upon it  .

You can only See Jesus  in the LIGHT  of the gospel  and  the shadow has since  passed  of the old  , making all things new  and When you see Jesus  you have also  seen the Father ...They are ONE and the same HOLY  WORD &SPIRIT ..
   The pure in heart shall see God  , but it is His   Fire and Light that cleanses us from all filth of the flesh for His presence  to fill us with .
True freedom is being in the HOLY SPIRIT fully  ,   the flesh profits nothing,  but is made for the fire of Gods consuming Spirit of Love .

  Luke 24 Jesus Opens the Scriptures

25Then Jesus said to them, "O foolish ones, how slow are your hearts to believe all that the prophets have spoken. 26Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?" 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.

28As they approached the village where they were headed, He seemed to be going farther. 29But they pleaded with Him, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over."

So He went in to stay with them. 30While He was reclining at the table with them, He took bread, spoke a blessing and broke it, and gave it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Jesus—and He disappeared from their sight.

32They asked one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us as He spoke with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" 33And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem.

There they found the eleven and those with them, gathered together 34and saying, "The Lord has indeed risen, and He has appeared to Simon!"

35Then the two told what had happened on the road, and how they had recognized Jesus in the breaking of the bread.


IT is the same for us when Jesus opens the scriptures  when breaking the bread with one another   and our hearts are on fire with the  cleansing presence of His Spirit working in us     all .

For me  ,  GODS Love can be   harsh to the flesh  man , but  beautiful  and fulfilling  to the  Sprint man   within  , working both death and Life in us at the same time    ..  the holy one is   renewed and strengthened   day by day and the old one is  defiantly fading away ...               absolving     us   in Christ authority  over the body of sin and error , missing the mark of the higher calling to  rise up in the Life of the Holy Spirit  and be with Him ......

gerund or present participle: absolving
set or declare (someone) free from blame, guilt, or responsibility.
"the pardon absolved them of any crimes"
synonyms:   exonerate, discharge, acquit, vindicate; More
CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY
give absolution for (a sin).     :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

 :dsunny:

[Eleutheros]

Hey, trettep!

Cain decided to worship God in his own way but God didn't accept his offering.  Why do we think we should decide how we should worship God?  Isn't our works sin?

Understood. I once held a similar viewpoint. Now I don't.

Please understand that my change of heart doesn't mean that I think your conviction is less considered than mine. From my understanding of scripture I believe that if your conscience will condemn you for celebrating Christmas, then you will be sinning if you do. So, keep true to your convictions because your conscience, cleansed by the Spirit of Jesus within you, is your guide to know how to be pleasing to your God.

However, given your statement, I'm pretty sure you would feel compelled to consider me a sinner, given my statements. That's okay. Like I said, I understand. My conscience is clear concerning Christmas; for I am aware of the case against Christmas, but do not agree with the arguments used.

Fortunately, agreement is not necessary to understanding.

So, may I ask if there is a group of like-minded souls that you belong to? If so, then what do you and they do together while the Christmas season is underway?

Do you meet together, or do you just let each other alone when the 24th and 25th roll around?

What do you do about Christmas, trettep?

I am curious, that is all.

The Year over year celebration of Christmas is celebration of Jesus coming in the flesh.  This mean such celebration brings profit to the flesh.  It is an earthly celebration.  It is sin.

The connection you made here here is a bit confusing to me. I'm sorry.

Many celebrate the advent of the Word made flesh during this season, this is true, but how does a celebration of this bring profit to the flesh? Are you referring to the commercial aspect of this holiday? Or are you saying that because it is a season that seems to please the body and mind of many, it must be a sin because pleasure is of the flesh?

If you consider Christmas an earthly celebration, and therefore a sin, may I ask if you feel the same concerning any other human celebration of an earthly event, like Cinco D'Mayo, Independence Day, or even your own birthday, a sin?

I am only asking out of curiosity, So, please know that I thank you for your reply.

Be good, trettep, and if that means you must take a stand in your heart against the celebration of Christmas, well then, be good about it!

[trettep]

Hey, trettep!

Cain decided to worship God in his own way but God didn't accept his offering.  Why do we think we should decide how we should worship God?  Isn't our works sin?

Understood. I once held a similar viewpoint. Now I don't.

Please understand that my change of heart doesn't mean that I think your conviction is less considered than mine. From my understanding of scripture I believe that if your conscience will condemn you for celebrating Christmas, then you will be sinning if you do. So, keep true to your convictions because your conscience, cleansed by the Spirit of Jesus within you, is your guide to know how to be pleasing to your God.

However, given your statement, I'm pretty sure you would feel compelled to consider me a sinner, given my statements. That's okay. Like I said, I understand. My conscience is clear concerning Christmas; for I am aware of the case against Christmas, but do not agree with the arguments used.

Fortunately, agreement is not necessary to understanding.

So, may I ask if there is a group of like-minded souls that you belong to? If so, then what do you and they do together while the Christmas season is underway?

Do you meet together, or do you just let each other alone when the 24th and 25th roll around?

What do you do about Christmas, trettep?

I am curious, that is all.

The Year over year celebration of Christmas is celebration of Jesus coming in the flesh.  This mean such celebration brings profit to the flesh.  It is an earthly celebration.  It is sin.

The connection you made here here is a bit confusing to me. I'm sorry.

Many celebrate the advent of the Word made flesh during this season, this is true, but how does a celebration of this bring profit to the flesh? Are you referring to the commercial aspect of this holiday? Or are you saying that because it is a season that seems to please the body and mind of many, it must be a sin because pleasure is of the flesh?

If you consider Christmas an earthly celebration, and therefore a sin, may I ask if you feel the same concerning any other human celebration of an earthly event, like Cinco D'Mayo, Independence Day, or even your own birthday, a sin?

I am only asking out of curiosity, So, please know that I thank you for your reply.

Be good, trettep, and if that means you must take a stand in your heart against the celebration of Christmas, well then, be good about it!

Hi Eleutheros, your response is a common one and your questions are logical.  I do not belong to any recognized religious organization.  I share in the fellowship of God's Spirit. 

I do not celebrate Birthdays, anniversary's or holidays. I pretty much am at liberty in all things. I have children but don't celebrate their birthdays.  I believe that also is a sin.  I believe Christ comes to everyone's flesh in due time and not just the physical body that God gave His Son in 3 BC. I also believe that Christ had no beginning. Likewise, I believe those that celebrate Birthdays' that claim to be born again show their hypocrisy when they don't also celebrate the day they claim to have been born again.  I trust Jesus when He says that the Flesh profits nothing. I don't believe He was excluding His own.  I also believe that His Birthday in 3 BC will be a part of an age that will be dissolved at His second coming in just a few years from now and to me such observance is looking back and not forward and certainly not set on that which is Heavenly or above. There is no mention of His Birthday ever being celebrated in the Bible or evidenced by His Apostles.  The Dating of His birthdate is clearly flawed as we know that He was baptized on His birthdate which would not be in December.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,

[rosered]

I do not celebrate Birthdays, anniversary's or holidays. I pretty much am at liberty in all things. I have children but don't celebrate their birthdays.  I believe that also is a sin.  I believe Christ comes to everyone's flesh in due time and not just the physical body that God gave His Son in 3 BC. I also believe that Christ had no beginning. Likewise, I believe those that celebrate Birthdays' that claim to be born again show their hypocrisy when they don't also celebrate the day they claim to have been born again.  I trust Jesus when He says that the Flesh profits nothing. I don't believe He was excluding His own.  I also believe that His Birthday in 3 BC will be a part of an age that will be dissolved at His second coming in just a few years from now and to me such observance is looking back and not forward and certainly not set on that which is Heavenly or above. There is no mention of His Birthday ever being celebrated in the Bible or evidenced by His Apostles.  The Dating of His birthdate is clearly flawed as we know that He was baptized on His birthdate which would not be in December.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,

I agree the things that are temporary  and man made , such a celebrating  human existence  seems trivial and pointless  .

  But we do celebrate the Sprint of life  EVERYDAY as we  remain thankful to HIM ,loving Him always and others as   we do ourselves  , this would be praying for them to know God as much as you have  known Him and know His mercy poured out upon you . loving your enemies as yourselves and trying to keep this hope alive within you by not giving up , hoping this for everyone to have it , Love is connection ,communication  , loving one another as He loves us and gave Himself for us all  , no respecter of persons  whatsoever ...

AND  the Spirit knows all things  trettep   and the Spirit convicts the world of sin , which is a beautiful thing!!!

By pricking our conscious  , because we have become spiritually aware of the LIVING GOD , Now we believe in the  LIVING GOD because  His Holy Spirit is teaching  us so  , His children  and chastising us and comforting us  little ones to Him belong , with new eyes to see and new ears to hear and heart to understand what the Spirit is conveying to us ,,.
 

  John 16  The Promise of the Holy Spirit
(Joel 2:28-32; John 14:15-26; Acts 2:1-13; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)

5Now, however, I am going to Him who sent Me; yet none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?'

6Instead, your hearts are filled with sorrow because I have told you these things.

7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me;  [  If they do believe HIM it is said , they  hear His voice they will live ]

10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me;[the righteousness of God is for  Jesus to be with His Father as ONE  and not separated , the WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE ARE ONE AND THE SAME , GOD HIMSELF


11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world already stands condemned.[ JESUS come to destroy the works of the devil] we consider  one of the huge  lies it is  being the fear of death , but the WORD OF LIFE SAYS , though he be dead , he shall live and  if He lives he will never die , do you believe Me !  this truth Because HE IS GODS WORD OF LIFE  , "I am the resurrection and the life; 


12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it.


13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.

For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.

14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.

16In a little while you will see Me no longer, and then after a little while you will see Me."

How does one ''see''  the Word  and Sprint of Life in them as well as others ?  , For me this is the question of the hour .. :HeartThrob:  and as it is written ,  LOVE / GOD never fails ....

[Eleutheros]

Hi Eleutheros, your response is a common one and your questions are logical.

Hey, trettep!

I thank you for noting that.

I do not belong to any recognized religious organization.  I share in the fellowship of God's Spirit. 

I do not celebrate Birthdays, anniversary's or holidays. I pretty much am at liberty in all things. I have children but don't celebrate their birthdays.  I believe that also is a sin.  I believe Christ comes to everyone's flesh in due time and not just the physical body that God gave His Son in 3 BC. I also believe that Christ had no beginning. Likewise, I believe those that celebrate Birthdays' that claim to be born again show their hypocrisy when they don't also celebrate the day they claim to have been born again.  I trust Jesus when He says that the Flesh profits nothing. I don't believe He was excluding His own.  I also believe that His Birthday in 3 BC will be a part of an age that will be dissolved at His second coming in just a few years from now and to me such observance is looking back and not forward and certainly not set on that which is Heavenly or above. There is no mention of His Birthday ever being celebrated in the Bible or evidenced by His Apostles.  The Dating of His birthdate is clearly flawed as we know that He was baptized on His birthdate which would not be in December.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,

Please know that I understand the logic in your point of view and that I respect your conclusions and that I thank you for this reply from your heart.

None of us can help it, really, but to speak from our hearts, and so I knew, when I started this thread, that I would learn how some of the varied individuals who willingly call themselves Universalists deal with Christmas; for to be a Universalist is to have studied scripture, and history, and drawn the conclusion, from a proper translation of their words, that the first century writers believed Jesus Christ would redeem all of humanity.

I think you know that you and I would not find agreement if we were to dialogue concerning the celebration of Christmas, so I'll just offer you my prayer that, through your convictions, you find that you are actualizing in your heart the fruit of the Spirit that is found in all goodness and righteousness and truth (Eph. 5:9).

Be good!

[trettep]

I do not celebrate Birthdays, anniversary's or holidays. I pretty much am at liberty in all things. I have children but don't celebrate their birthdays.  I believe that also is a sin.  I believe Christ comes to everyone's flesh in due time and not just the physical body that God gave His Son in 3 BC. I also believe that Christ had no beginning. Likewise, I believe those that celebrate Birthdays' that claim to be born again show their hypocrisy when they don't also celebrate the day they claim to have been born again.  I trust Jesus when He says that the Flesh profits nothing. I don't believe He was excluding His own.  I also believe that His Birthday in 3 BC will be a part of an age that will be dissolved at His second coming in just a few years from now and to me such observance is looking back and not forward and certainly not set on that which is Heavenly or above. There is no mention of His Birthday ever being celebrated in the Bible or evidenced by His Apostles.  The Dating of His birthdate is clearly flawed as we know that He was baptized on His birthdate which would not be in December.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,

I agree the things that are temporary  and man made , such a celebrating  human existence  seems trivial and pointless  .

  But we do celebrate the Sprint of life  EVERYDAY as we  remain thankful to HIM ,loving Him always and others as   we do ourselves  , this would be praying for them to know God as much as you have  known Him and know His mercy poured out upon you . loving your enemies as yourselves and trying to keep this hope alive within you by not giving up , hoping this for everyone to have it , Love is connection ,communication  , loving one another as He loves us and gave Himself for us all  , no respecter of persons  whatsoever ...

AND  the Spirit knows all things  trettep   and the Spirit convicts the world of sin , which is a beautiful thing!!!

By pricking our conscious  , because we have become spiritually aware of the LIVING GOD , Now we believe in the  LIVING GOD because  His Holy Spirit is teaching  us so  , His children  and chastising us and comforting us  little ones to Him belong , with new eyes to see and new ears to hear and heart to understand what the Spirit is conveying to us ,,.
 

  John 16  The Promise of the Holy Spirit
(Joel 2:28-32; John 14:15-26; Acts 2:1-13; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)

5Now, however, I am going to Him who sent Me; yet none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?'

6Instead, your hearts are filled with sorrow because I have told you these things.

7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me;  [  If they do believe HIM it is said , they  hear His voice they will live ]

10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me;[the righteousness of God is for  Jesus to be with His Father as ONE  and not separated , the WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE ARE ONE AND THE SAME , GOD HIMSELF


11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world already stands condemned.[ JESUS come to destroy the works of the devil] we consider  one of the huge  lies it is  being the fear of death , but the WORD OF LIFE SAYS , though he be dead , he shall live and  if He lives he will never die , do you believe Me !  this truth Because HE IS GODS WORD OF LIFE  , "I am the resurrection and the life; 


12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it.


13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.

For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.

14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.

16In a little while you will see Me no longer, and then after a little while you will see Me."

How does one "see"  the Word  and Sprint of Life in them as well as others ?  , For me this is the question of the hour .. :HeartThrob:  and as it is written ,  LOVE / GOD never fails ....

Thank you for the verses and comments.  I do have celebrations in the things of the Spirit.  I do celebrate the feast days from the perspective of understanding their Spiritual meaning and WATCHING as those feast days foretell so as to be one that has heard the Father.  If one is not a WATCHER, they are not hearing the Father in Heaven.  And if they are hearing Him they would realize the significance of this Feasts.  Not from earthly observations but for their Spiritual significance. They will quickly understand that Christmas has no place in that realm.

[trettep]

Hi Eleutheros, your response is a common one and your questions are logical.

Hey, trettep!

I thank you for noting that.

I do not belong to any recognized religious organization.  I share in the fellowship of God's Spirit. 

I do not celebrate Birthdays, anniversary's or holidays. I pretty much am at liberty in all things. I have children but don't celebrate their birthdays.  I believe that also is a sin.  I believe Christ comes to everyone's flesh in due time and not just the physical body that God gave His Son in 3 BC. I also believe that Christ had no beginning. Likewise, I believe those that celebrate Birthdays' that claim to be born again show their hypocrisy when they don't also celebrate the day they claim to have been born again.  I trust Jesus when He says that the Flesh profits nothing. I don't believe He was excluding His own.  I also believe that His Birthday in 3 BC will be a part of an age that will be dissolved at His second coming in just a few years from now and to me such observance is looking back and not forward and certainly not set on that which is Heavenly or above. There is no mention of His Birthday ever being celebrated in the Bible or evidenced by His Apostles.  The Dating of His birthdate is clearly flawed as we know that He was baptized on His birthdate which would not be in December.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,

Please know that I understand the logic in your point of view and that I respect your conclusions and that I thank you for this reply from your heart.

None of us can help it, really, but to speak from our hearts, and so I knew, when I started this thread, that I would learn how some of the varied individuals who willingly call themselves Universalists deal with Christmas; for to be a Universalist is to have studied scripture, and history, and drawn the conclusion, from a proper translation of their words, that the first century writers believed Jesus Christ would redeem all of humanity.

I think you know that you and I would not find agreement if we were to dialogue concerning the celebration of Christmas, so I'll just offer you my prayer that, through your convictions, you find that you are actualizing in your heart the fruit of the Spirit that is found in all goodness and righteousness and truth (Eph. 5:9).

Be good!

Hi Eleutheros, I know we may disagree but that is not a reason to not discuss.  Through a very lengthy discussion with a very patient and thoughtful, rational and logical person, I came through many days of mental tribulation to arrive at an embrace of Universal Salvation.  I believe it is a sin to debate in illogical and irrational manner and such discussions should be avoided.  So I don't want you to think that I see your comments in that manner or to think that I do not desire to discuss  the subject further, for I actually do.  So please know that I welcome the questions.

[rosered]

Thank you for the verses and comments.  I do have celebrations in the things of the Spirit.  I do celebrate the feast days from the perspective of understanding their Spiritual meaning and WATCHING as those feast days foretell so as to be one that has heard the Father.  If one is not a WATCHER, they are not hearing the Father in Heaven.  And if they are hearing Him they would realize the significance of this Feasts.  Not from earthly observations but for their Spiritual significance. They will quickly understand that Christmas has no place in that realm.

  Amen and Thank you trettep    !! :dsunny:

In the Love of God bless you and yours ..   :HeartThrob:

 

[jabcat]

I like those replies trettep  :thumbsup:

rose, eleuthros (and all interested in the topic), I'll add my 2 cents from personal perspective. :)

I used to do the whole "this is Jesus' birthday" thing when the kids were smaller and I was an ET'er, trying to "maintain" a spiritual component to what was really a chance to get the kids some neat new toys we could play with together.   :laugh:

After believing in UR and seeing several things more unconventionally than before, I began to take a harder line on Christmas;  that it's pagan etc., and all the reasons I shouldn't participate.  After acting like a horse's behind a few times to my dear, sweet wife - one of the kindest-hearted people I've ever been blessed to know - but who was ET at the time and loved Christmas, I realized I'd made an idiot of myself.  Longer story short, I now don't really "celebrate Christmas" (or "Easter/Ishtar" etc.) for the days themselves, I personally don't like them and consider in my heart pretty much every day as another. 

However, I do buy gifts for my family, spend time together with them, have a meal, etc.  Don't really like Christmas trees, but my dear wife loves them, so she puts one up and I don't say a word.  Maybe even hang an ornament or two.  Don't mind singing a beautiful "Christmas" hymn now and then.  She knows it's basically not "my thing", but I also know that even though I can be a massive knucklehead, I need to treat her as kindly and gently as I can, as well as the rest of my family.  If it arises, I may share "true meanings" of things (as I understand them), but yet not make some legalistic big deal out of it, especially to the point of causing strife or dissension - or worse, hurt - within my family.      As I've said, I believe these things are a matter of conscience - to each! - not essentials of the faith (or to UR!), so perhaps a feeble attempt to major on majors (Jesus, crucified, risen again, Savior of the world) and minor on the minors (what day people decide to be happier on) :). 

[trettep]

I like those replies trettep  :thumbsup:

rose, eleuthros (and all interested in the topic), I'll add my 2 cents from personal perspective. :)

I used to do the whole "this is Jesus' birthday" thing when the kids were smaller and I was an ET'er, trying to "maintain" a spiritual component to what was really a chance to get the kids some neat new toys we could play with together.   :laugh:

After believing in UR and seeing several things more unconventionally than before, I began to take a harder line on Christmas;  that it's pagan etc., and all the reasons I shouldn't participate.  After acting like a horse's behind a few times to my dear, sweet wife - one of the kindest-hearted people I've ever been blessed to know - but who was ET at the time and loved Christmas, I realized I'd made an idiot of myself.  Longer story short, I now don't really "celebrate Christmas" (or "Easter/Ishtar" etc.) for the days themselves, I personally don't like them and consider in my heart pretty much every day as another. 

However, I do buy gifts for my family, spend time together with them, have a meal, etc.  Don't really like Christmas trees, but my dear wife loves them, so she puts one up and I don't say a word.  Maybe even hang an ornament or two.  Don't mind singing a beautiful "Christmas" hymn now and then.  She knows it's basically not "my thing", but I also know that even though I can be a massive knucklehead, I need to treat her as kindly and gently as I can, as well as the rest of my family.  If it arises, I may share "true meanings" of things (as I understand them), but yet not make some legalistic big deal out of it, especially to the point of causing strife or dissension - or worse, hurt - within my family.      As I've said, I believe these things are a matter of conscience - to each! - not essentials of the faith (or to UR!), so perhaps a feeble attempt to major on majors (Jesus, crucified, risen again, Savior of the world) and minor on the minors (what day people decide to be happier on) :).

Hi Jabcat, my wife also observes Christmas.  She has a small tree in our living room. God has not blessed me with persuading her to give up Christmas observance.

[rosered]

  I love it all  you fellas !!!!!!!!!!!,   you  are  tenderhearted towards one another and having  peace   within your house !! ,  it was my hubby  that persuaded me   to   , keep the faith , in other words     :laugh:  I am very much against pagan holidays .

As you all have shared also,  my heart is not in it , but in pleasing the  Lord .... 

If you can    see the Lord God stooping down to touch us in ways   that only HE can , it should not be hard to  for any one of us   , whom do not appreciate the  commercializing and profiting on the name of God for a $$  sign ..

but too  love anyone ,where ever they are at,  or coming from , to  fellowship with one another  in the same Love of GOD  despite the   flesh ...

I was thinking  how we can become all things to all men , that is reaching the  same level of   loving  them all  without offense.


  Jesus loved[loves ]  the sinners and dwelt  among them  , serving them all , whomsoever will  as it is written   and HE IS THE HOLY ONE OF ALL !

Wow , made me think big time , just  how much grace has been given over the eons already !   

I too esteem every day alike in the sense of this,  HIS  story the greatest one of all  ...... 

His   Life is a precious thing to be handled with much care ....

For me ,  it is the little ones that bless us the most  ....Whom melts our  hearts   like nothing else  ,   the smiles the hugs and unconditional love   and the joy it brings  by coming together  in the Love of God ..
It is just a day  we can do it  in  ,  that everyone is off work   because this world  observes it ...So we take advantage of the  ability to see those whom we never see  much  , because the world is spinning off its top   every day it seems     , going ninety  miles an hour ... :laughing7:

God knows our hearts and that is a wonderful thing  to trust in as well . :HeartThrob:

 

[jugghead]

For me, Christmas is not a one time event of the year, just like baptism is not a one time event in a persons life, or communion a monthly or yearly event ...... I view it as a lifestyle, not an event

How can I not celebrate the birth of "the means by which I was freed from sin", to me every day is Christmas because that is what I  rejoice in, that is what I celebrate.

Christmas = Christ M.A.S. = Christ Makes All Saints ..... and that is this Universalists  :2c:

[MusicLover123]

When I was younger, on Christmas morning, me and my sister would wake up to a tree surrounded with a plethora of presents. At a young age, honestly the main thing I cared about was how much stuff I was given. My parents took pictures, but I would try to rush it to find out all that we had gotten. Lately, after maturing more, I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you, out of love. I think many of us have idolized others who love us, who only do nice to get back, or to take of advantage of others for personal pleasure.

Now, at 19 years old, I am about to celebrate another Christmas with my family. I still am not sure if this is something I will do if I had a wife and children, but whoever we are, we should always walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit, truth will be revealed, in Love.  :Pray:

[JamesH]

I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you

It's even more than that. It's mainly about Christ. The greatest gift of all.

[MusicLover123]

I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you

It's even more than that. It's mainly about Christ. The greatest gift of all.

Whoops, I forgot to write down that part. I was thinking of that as well, but just remembered after I had posted. Thanks for the reminder though.