Wages of sin...

[sparrow]

Kratos...

I just don't even know what to say.
You are projecting and hinting at a lot of stuff...
and it ain't pretty.
Stop trying to twist people's words.
Maybe you don't realize you're doing it, brother but you are doing it.

sparrow

[captamajora]

Speaking down to Mickiel for trying to walk worthy of the Lord is not right.

I was not speaking down to him. I'm sorry if it came off that way. My apologies.

Wait...Are you telling me that Mickiel is not worthy of the Lord right now?  There is something that he can do to make himself more worthy?

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

I think that this relates to the idea of causing others "to stumble."  We don't necessarily do these things for ourselves, we do them for others.

Paul brought up the same thing about meat sacrificed to demon gods.  He said that you could eat of it freely, EXCEPT if it should cause your neighbor to stumble because his faith  isn't as strong.

Take this example.  I do not become drunk because If I do then people will think that my beliefs promote drunkeness.  I don't get drunk because I don't want to cause others to stumble about what I believe. Not only would they miss what I was trying to say, but they might become an alcoholic and destroy their liver (which would be a shame).

Anyways, Paul said "Everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial."(1COR 10:20)  You have to think more of how what you do will affect others than how it will affect yourself.

As far as overcoming is concerned, you are forgetting the fact that aionian life (which is given to overcomers) is a GIFT of God.  How do you earn a gift?

If you are trying to qualify yourself for something, than there can't be a lot of focus on others.

I need to listen to that audio again sometime.  He explained it very well. It's been a long time since I've heard it.

[sparrow]

ok, I turned out my light and was going to bed but had to come back.
All right, Kratos, maybe I need to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

Maybe you really are just not seeing what folks are trying to say.

It's like a group of people are talking about let's say.... crossing the street.
Group A is saying "best way to not get hit by a car is to look both ways before crossing the street."
Group B says "getting hit by a car is really bad. we should be vigilant about not getting hit by cars!!!!"
Group A says "yeah...so, y'know... you just need to look both ways before crossing..."
Group B says "so you don't think we need to WORRY about getting hit by cars? Cars are everywhere! how dare you say we don't need to worry about it! We are trying to stay alive!"
Group A says "yeah...so, y'know... you just need to look both ways before crossing..."
Group B says "this is horrible! I can't believe you want people to NOT CARE about getting hit by cars! You are immature and don't know the first thing about cars and not getting hit by them"
Group A says... "  :mshock:  "



That is what this thread is making me feel like.
I'm in Group A, by the way.

peace to you guys,
sparrow

[Kratos]

Sparrow,

Peace to you, too, and sleep well.

John

[sparrow]

Sparrow,

Peace to you, too, and sleep well.

John

:thanks: :lazy:

[Kratos]

Captamajora,

I do not see that Paul could be talking about not offending others. He specifically said that he was concerned that he would be a castaway if he did not keep his body under submission.

Yes, aionian life will eventually come to all and all will serve the Lord. But, Jesus said a lot about faithful and wicked servants. What we do after we are saved does matter.

Would you tell me why Jesus is speaking to the 7 churches so all have aionian life, but he promises things to those who Overcome among these churches in Rev. 2 and 3?

John

[captamajora]

Yes, aionian life will eventually come to all and all will serve the Lord. But, Jesus said a lot about faithful and wicked servants. What we do after we are saved does matter.

No, all don't aionian life.  I guess I made an assumption here, sorry.  I assumed you knew what the term "aion" means.  It relates to the ages.

There will be a group of people that will be granted life during the upcoming ages.

It is not until the end of the ages, at the consummation, that everyone will be given life.

The life given to the mass of humanity at the consummation is never referred to a gift (at least not that I have seen).  The gift is actually aionian life (life during the upcoming ages.)

Please read about the meaning of the word aion.  There are some articles on the main site.

I'm exhausted and I have to catch a flight tomorrow.  I must bid farewell for the evening.

Sleep tight...

[Mickiel]

An interesting subject to say the least. I must admit that I may well be at a disadvantage seeing that I am not Christian, that I do not have Gods Holy Spirit or his calling. So do I live the way that I do because I am trying to " Earn these things or be worthy of them", no, I understand enough about the bible to know that those things cannot be earned, they are given, for reasons that have nothing to do with human effort. So I only can speak from the point of view that I am presently in; a sinner who agrees with God, and thus accepts the bibles explinations about how we should live. And I am going to keep trying to live that way until God decides to call me to him. Oh it would be nice to have his Spirit inside of me, doing all the living for me, but such is not my experience. I don't know God, but I think his ways are right.

So I am doing all the things that I can do, until the time comes that " I" am taken out of the way and God introduces himself to me. Then it will be no longer "I", but him that dwells in me. But until that occurs, I will continue to fight the good fight of trying to Overcome sin, I cannot say the good fight of Faith, because I have no Faith. Now why am I doing that? Its not to make myself worthy by my own righteousness, because I have no righteousness, I am doing it simply because I believe it, I believe God is right. I don't need Gods Holy Spirit to stop getting drunk, or to stop lying or to stop mistreating people and myself. I don't need Gods Holy Spirit to stop stealing or stop fornicating, do you know how many people have stopped doing these things and know nothing about God? Why were they able to stop? Because they saw the need and agreed with the " Principle" and accepted no other answer for themselves. And they Overcame their problem.

Now what is the difference when now God is in the Picture? If the person trying to change is a believer in God, oh does that mean they must now stop trying to live right, and just stand on the principles of God, and wait for some kind of " Spiritual Baptism" that will infuse them with all kinds of things, and then it is now their God doing it, thus we are now " Safe", God receives the Glory , so I have not committed the cardional sin of " Trying to help myself." Oh so now the people of God cannot help themselves because that " Robs God of his Glory?" If I say no to sin, does that somehow mean I am " Trying to make myself worthy", I have crossed the line and must now repent of getting too involved in my own life with God?

This is one reason I do not have anything to do with groups and churchs, I don't see it that way. When God decides to call me, " If" he does, he will find me trying to live the ways that are right. Not trying to " Qualify", or make myself worthy, but SIMPLY because I see his ways as the right thing to do. And if he helps me, then fine, he can have all the Glory, I am not in this for Glory. If he does not help me, then I am still going to try and live his ways because I think its the right thing to do. I just happen to agree with his ways.

And I don't need to wait on him to baptise me with his Spirit, and just stupidly let this Sin just keep jumping all over me, just because some of his people have these ways of interpiting his word. I got enough sense to fight. I am ashamed to admit it, but one thing I know how to do is fight. I am going to fight this sin until God comes into my life and begins a fellowship with me. And it does not matter to me what the " Spiritual People" think about this.

Peace.

[captamajora]

An interesting subject to say the least. I must admit that I may well be at a disadvantage seeing that I am not Christian, that I do not have Gods Holy Spirit or his calling. So do I live the way that I do because I am trying to " Earn these things or be worthy of them", no, I understand enough about the bible to know that those things cannot be earned, they are given, for reasons that have nothing to do with human effort.

Hi Mickiel.  Yes I agree.

Anyways, this whole thread is  re-hashing of an argument that has been going on for 2000 years.  It has been debated a million times and will be debated a million more.  Look up Law vs Grace and begin reading.  Look up law mixed with grace and start reading.

There is LAW and there is GRACE.  THe two are mutually exclusive.  They are oil and water.  They do NOT mix.

I believe the point was (and Jesus heavily emphasized this with the beatitudes) is that if you have to look to the law to know what to do or to know what is right, or follow just because it is the law (and miss the Spirit behind the law) then you missed the whole sha-bang!

Like I said, this is an argument that has been going on since the crucifixion.

People would ask Paul, "Does that mean we sin more so that we will have more grace?"

Of course not...Even Paul had a hard time explaining it, so it is not going to come easy.

Take care buddy!

[Mickiel]

Hi Mickiel.  Yes I agree.

Anyways, this whole thread is  re-hashing of an argument that has been going on for 2000 years.  It has been debated a million times and will be debated a million more.  Look up Law vs Grace and begin reading.  Look up law mixed with grace and start reading.

There is LAW and there is GRACE.  THe two are mutually exclusive.  They are oil and water.  They do NOT mix.

I believe the point was (and Jesus heavily emphasized this with the beatitudes) is that if you have to look to the law to know what to do or to know what is right, or follow just because it is the law (and miss the Spirit behind the law) then you missed the whole sha-bang!

Like I said, this is an argument that has been going on since the crucifixion.

People would ask Paul, "Does that mean we sin more so that we will have more grace?"

Of course not...Even Paul had a hard time explaining it, so it is not going to come easy.

Take care buddy!

Well with me, the subject has nothing to do with law and grace, it has to do with the way some believers are interpiting the word of God with " Their Standards of understanding." And when the subject of overcomming comes up, and its compared to law and grace, such a comparrison should never be made in the first place. Its sickening to me, and I had to repent yesterday, because it angers me when believers try and do this. Its almost as if some believers are so scared of not giving God the Glory, that they go to extremes in order to give him the Glory. They go overboard in giving him the credit, and in this manner they feel " Safe", they have met the requirements of not giving themselves any glory. A kind of " Mental invalid", they now have become totally submissive to God because they view him as doing it all!

Kind of like, " God, be my eyes, my mind, my feet, my mate, my very life." Be my forgiveness of Sin, be my erasing of sin to the point I won't even consider my sin any more. Brush my teeth God, wash my dishes, mow my grass, just be my all in all, and take out my grabage while your at it. I am not against people who think like this, but their standards of righteousness will be extreme, and extreme in both directions. They either will take you too far to the right, and impose strict Pharisitical standards of Righteousness, or take you far to the left and tell you that you don't have to worry about your sin or even try to overcome them. I don't like views like this, or people who stress them. They either overburden people, or decrease their abilities. They either decrease what God expects, or try to take more than what God has given.

Just because you believe in God, does not mean you now have to become retarded to sin, as if only God can do something about the sin in your life. God is not rasing up a group of people who are so dependant on him that they can do nothing for themselves. You don't become submissive to God by becomming Spiritually Stupid and helpless.

Let me say something here., If I was a demon who was looking to interfere with a believers mind and life, one of the finest ways to get a believer to STOP dealing with their sins, STOP trying to grow and improve, is to use the bible to show them that they don't have to worry about those things. Christ has done it all for you, stop trying to do this and that, just don't do nothing! Just live as if nothing is going on in your lust and deciet. Don't worry about your lying and smoking, just leave it in Gods hands. Your forgiven, you have been given a get out of jail free card. You can't make yourself worthy, your " Works" are filthy rags. This a is pathological demonic approach that has spread deeply into the consciousness of believers, and I view it as one of the greatest demonic successes that I am aware of. It has dulled the edge of many believers abilities. It has damped the thirst of many.

Anyway, thats just how I see this.

Peace.

[captamajora]

You don't become submissive to God by becomming SPIRITUALLY STUPID and helpless.

A kind of " MENTAL INVALID"...

you now have to become RETARDED to sin

This a is PATHOLOGICAL DEMONIC approach

Anyway, thats just how I see this.

Wow.  You have TOTALLY missed my point. I mean COMPLETELY. Are you even reading what I am writing?

I am really sorry that you feel the need to hurl insults at me.  You appear have no idea of how to discuss and issue and politely disagree with respect and courtesy.

I am no longer going to engage in this conversation. Thanks for showing me how you see it...

[sparrow]

I love my husband with a pure, strong love.
Do I need a little card with me to carry around that tells me:
- Don't look at other men with lustful eyes.
- Don't go to strip clubs.
- Don't sleep with other men.
- Don't spread lies about your husband.
- Don't scream and yell and cuss at your husband.
- Don't disrespect your husband.
- Don't hit your husband with a shoe.

Of course not. I L-O-V-E my husband with a pure, strong love. We've been together for 17 years, and some of the points on that card I DID need years ago.... (Don't hit your husband with a shoe. Don't scream and yell at your husband..). I DID need the law back then, but now if someone were to hand me a card like that I would laugh.My God! My God! I would lay down my life for my husband and he would lay down his life for me. This I know with absolute certainty. Of COURSE I don't need a card that tells me not to hurt my husband. Some will say... "Well, you should keep looking at the points on that card to make sure you don't stumble!" Brother, I don't N-E-E-D that card. LOVE has replaced the NEED for that card.

Just like LOVE has replaced the NEED for the LAW. God has written the law in our hearts.
If you still need that card, if you still need the law hovering over your head.... ok, y'know that's fine. Everyone has a different path to walk. Everyone is on their own path. And no-one is better than anyone else. We are ALL brothers and sisters here, no-one can boast of ANYTHING. We all know that, correct? So if a sister is at a place on her path where she is saying..."Hey, brothers and sisters... I have seen the light. Sin does not rule in my life! Come, look here! Look at what God has done in my life. Look at this little gem He has shown me. Look at the wonderful life and light that He is SHOWING US! LOVE conquers. Love is the only thing that ever CONQUERS anything in this world." Then, don't shoot a sister down or be resentful or fearful, or annoyed, or put your walls up around you in light of what this sister is sharing. Don't focus on yourself and think "NO! This isn't correct because I still need to examine and look at the law to make sure everything is ok and that I'm ok and that I'm living my life in accordance with God" I mean, you can do that if you want... But if something doesn't seem right to you NOW, you cannot say that it won't seem right to you in the future. That's how revelation works, no?

A lot of us didn't understand or think that UR was really correct.... remember....

peace to you all.
Sin hurts.
God doesn't want us to hurt.
God wants us to LOVE.
LOVE is a verb.
Love is everything.
LOVE is what allows sin to CEASE ruling over you.

Just like my husband... when we were first together, I thought my love for him was the strongest love EVER in the world. Oh... no, no, no. It was love all right, but it was NO agape love. That's for sure.  And that's why I DID need the law... I did need that little card. But now, after all of these years, after my love has grown into pure agape love, I have no need for that little card. I don't need a law telling me not to sleep with another man. The thought would never even ENTER INTO MY MIND. I laugh at a card like that. I laugh.
because I can.
My love is THAT strong.
And God's love is infinitely stronger.
If sin rules in your universe... lean back into Him more.
That is your cue.
That LOVE is not ruling in your universe.

Do I sin? you are probably asking yourselves this right now. "Does sparrow think that she doesn't sin, anymore?!" I lead as clean a life as sparrow-ly possible. I won't tell you what I do or don't do. But it's a clean life. Do I sink into little petty things such as jealousy? or having wrong motives in my heart? YES! I do. But as soon as I do it, it cuts me. It causes a stab in my heart and I know God is pinching me say... sparrow...what you doing there, little bird? Is that love? Are you leaning back into ME? Or are you leaning back into yourself here.... Go! SIN NO MORE!
and I scamper off with my tailfeathers between my legs and answer "Yes, Father..."
I don't waste time examining and re-examining sin. If I stumble, I get the point quickly and move on to better things...


Like I said before... we are all on our own paths. and we are all brothers and sisters and I so look forward to the day when we can all meet face to face and know each other for real. For who we are really to become. How amazing... when you think of it... that one day we will KNOW each other... "Mickiel... Kratos...capta majora...!!!!!! MY GOD! remember when we were on earth, typing away on those little archaic stone-age computer things trying to get each other to understand each other?!! LOOK where we are now!! Isn't this WONDERFUL!"  :grin: I long for the day...
until then,
peace to you brothers and sisters..
It's ok if we don't always truly understand each other.
It's ok. It's not that important.
The most important thing is LOVE (God is Love) and allowing it (Him) to rule in your life.

:HeartThrob:,
sparrow

[captamajora]

Exaclty!

Beautiful post.

[Kratos]

Captamajora,

I think you continue to miss what Mickiel and I are saying, but whatever. I am not a baby in the Lord as you seem to think by pointing out such basics. I preached my first message on Law vs Grace well over 20 years ago and fully understand the difference.

What you do not seem to understand is the difference between works of the Law that preceed salvation or are used to appear righteous before God and the good works that follow salvation as a fruit of having been saved. In other words, the difference between thinking that our righteousness before God is based on our works verses faith which is dead without works as taught through James.

I started this conversation with Eph. 2:8-10 pointing out that we are not saved or righteous with God by means of our good works, but we are His workmanship created unto good works after we are saved.

We become Overcomers by working out our own salvation (this means that the salvation that we have received in Christ is working itself out of us to produce good works as a fruit of God in us).

Why don't you tell me what it means when God admonishes us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and how that relates to your passive view of running the race so as to receive the prize as Paul mentioned? Then, maybe we can get somewhere.

John

[Mickiel]

You don't become submissive to God by becomming SPIRITUALLY STUPID and helpless.

A kind of " MENTAL INVALID"...

you now have to become RETARDED to sin

This a is PATHOLOGICAL DEMONIC approach
I am really sorry that you feel the need to hurl insults at me.  You appear have no idea of how to discuss and issue and politely disagree with respect and courtesy.

I am no longer going to engage in this conversation. Thanks for showing me how you see it...

I didnot say you were these things, I didnot hurl insults at you, I hurled examples at you of what I think following God does NOT mean. I never said you are a demon or stupid, I said I do not view the following of God as something that seems to make people retarded to the things that they can be involved in doing. In my view of this thing, its not a Law vs. Grace approach at all, its a process that we can actively be involved in, share in and be a part of. At least thats how I am comming into this thing with God. This thing of ours. I am not being impolite, I am being as I was before I met you, just as direct as I can be about it. I don't know you, and I have no need to insult you, neither do I have a need to convince you of anything. When you are strong in how you voice things, it does not bother me, what bothers me is the message and meaning you are trying to convey.

I use to box, and I have never met a trainer who would put a fighter in the ring, but first told him that the battle is already won, they have no need to fight. If they did, they were just going to send them out there to get their rump kicked or watch them take a dive. Serving God is simular to me. Christ was sent to master our Salvation and secure it, not to fight our battles for us, but be with us " As we fight." Fight for what, the battle is already won? So we fight to build our own characther, build our own muscle, develop our own minds and grow in our own experiences. Jesus was not sent to experience our Lives for us, but to help enrich our Lives, not do every little thing for us. If Jesus did everything for us, that is creating the " Invilids" I spoke of, let me do some things myself, I want to be involved also.

Let me get dirty, let me sweat and suffer, let me bear the cross " With you Lord", you need not bear it alone. This has absolutely nothing whatsoever with a Law vs. Grace discussion. Although I agree I am not as graced in discussing matters as most here are, I am just not a people person, but I do not try and tear the person down, only what I view as " Dangerous reasonings", not I do admit to sometimes going hard after that kind of stuff.

I view it as a serious " Handicap", this notion of a believer not having to Overcome. Its creating a very passive approach to things that believers should energectically approach, and using scripture to create this passive laid back ideal of " Works". Works has nothing to do with Overcomming Sin. I don't think people know what the bible means by " Works." Works are things like Preaching and Teaching, dicipleship and Eldering. Leadership and Church development, visting the sick and praying for others,  fellowship and all the things that one would " DO FOR OTHERS", in the name of God. Overcomming is " Personal Involvement", its what you are doing for yourself, for your walk with God, for your mind and your personal Life.

Look at 2 Corinth. 1:4," Who comforts us in all of our afflictions so that we may be able to comfort others."  That is " Work", that is the work of God, what you are doing for others, Overcomming is what you are doing for yourself, and BOTH are active participation. Now if a brother is confused and thinks that he is " Working" to obtain Salvation, then he is just confused, The work is something to do so that others will benefit from it. Benefit what, Salvation, no, no, benefit them in a manner that will help them to Overcome their sins and better understand God. Salvation is already theirs, but even the right kind of help benefits Salvation in that it helps the person understand their Salvation much more. Look at vs.6, " But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and Salvation." Does this mean one must be afflicted to obtain Salvation? No, No, it means affliction helps one to better understand their salvation.

Overcomming Sin does not give you Salvation, it helps you to be a participant in Gods Plan, it benefits you as an individual, helps your own strength, your own mind, your own house, your own personality, your own self. But one thing you will begin to notice as you work on yourself, it actually places you in a better position to help others, because you remove the beam out of your own eye, now you can better serve others.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

I want to be sure that the effort to make this an arguement about Law and Grace is properly deflected, because this issue is no such thing. This is about how much you are involved in your calling and your Salvation. And this issue has two ways of looking at it, not Law and Grace, but before and after. Remember that, this is really about before and after. Salvation and the calling of God are things that God has " Done", which are already predetermined and our individual response or opinions have nothing to do with what has been done. Before God gave humanity Salvation, we didnot even exist, the earth itself didnot exist. Salvation was planned with no human in sight and no human opinion at the table.

The Plan was a " Finished Plan", but Jesus had to Live in the Plan, because the Plan involved him becomming a human, dying and being resurrected. So although it was a predetermined sealed deal of the century for humanity, it was a living, dying Plan, meaning Jesus had to interject his Life and Death into the Plan, in order to complettely finish it. So the finished plan had a before and after effect to it, meaning it was a finished plan that required Jesus to be ACTIVELY  INVOLVED in it. And our Salvation is no different. We too have a finished plan offered to us, but we must live and die "in " this active dynamic plan. Although our Salvation is a finished sealed event, we still must actively " Live out " the plan, and in this manner we are given the opportunity to grow in Grace and Knowledge, which Means to Overcome our experiences with the flesh, life and sin. Learn from it, benefit from it, be challanged by it, enriched  by it, engulfed by it.

Now , here is the before and after effect. Before God chooses you, he calls you. He will change the awareness of your mind. He will " Open things" in your heart and understanding. You are going to respond to that stimuli, just as you would respond to any stimuli that enters your life and mind. Now let me use myself as an example, I can safely talk about myself and not hurt my feelings in the conversation. Some time ago, and the day and hour is of absolutely no importance whatsoever, God pricked my mind, made me aware of certain things. He has done nothingelse to me since then. He has not given me his Spirit, not made me born again, not placed his kingdom within, not did anythingelse to me other than to prick my mind and gave me a certain awareness. That was it. It was not a booming voice, not a small still voice, not a verbal communication at all. It was not a life changeing event, not a hughe moment in my life that I will never forget, I don't even remember the day he did it, it just slowly developed within my mind. And he has done nothingelse to me since then. But the Awareness has grown yearly.

Now God did this to me. Now heres my situation. I can either wait for God to do somethingelse to me, and live in any manner that I so choose, or I can focus on the Spiritual issues in my life and he find me doing that when he comes. Now I know many of other peoples situations are different, many claim to have Gods Spirit now, are born again now, have the Kingdom within them now, well I can't speak from that perspective, that experience is not mine, I have never experienced that reality. My reality is that I must now Live without Gods Spirit, without being chosen, without having all that such things would offer me. In my present state, which is a " Before State", I would rather fight my sin, try to live right, try to obey God, just do my very best UNTIL he comes back to me to give me more than just a mind prick. But I am fighting that sin with a pretty good level of understanding that the plan of Salvation is finished, my Salvation is free, my destiny is preordained, and my efforts to Overcome my sin has absolutely NOTHING to do with my Salvation. Such a mindset cannot be accused of some kind of Law vs. Grace mentality, its just not possible. I am waiting on God to call and choose me, I can do whatever I want to do, I'm not even being Judged yet. Yet the foremost thing in my mind, is to live my best to please a God I don't even know.

Not please him to somehow seduce him into him calling me, but because I like this God the bible speaks up. I like the way God thinks, I want to think like that. I like what Jesus did and I would like to get to one day know him. So I am actively getting ready for that day. I'm taking absolutely no concern whatsoever about the believers who already know God, who say things like;" You can't get yourself ready without Gods help", you can't do anything of yourself, you can't earn an audiance with God, your trying to legalize a spiritual thing.  I don't care about all that stuff, don't even think about it. I don't care what any of you say and think about this subject, I am going to do all I can to be ready for the second time does something to me. All than is in me is being invested in my life and living  for this God who pricked my mind. Now I don't know whats going to happen to me if God decides to call and choose me, maybe my mind will change, I may start seeing things the way others do, I might become superman and sin will bounce off of me and become meaningless to me too.

But sin ain't bouncing off of me now, such is not my reality and existance. I got to deal with this monkey now, because this dog is biteing me now. I'm not immune to the kryptonite as some of you seem to be. God can come when he decides to, but I got to deal with this stuff now. This stuff burns, it hurts, I can't ignore this stuff as if its somehow not there.

Peace.

[Molly]

34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

--Mark 13

[Mickiel]

34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

--Mark 13

A bueatiful scripture Molly, one that emcompases what I have been refering to. Jesus has left to each one " Work" to do, or something to " Do." Not something to do to earn a spot with him, but something to do, or achieve, for each one of us who are not " Sleeping", which certainly implys some kind of " Rest". When you consider just what is there to " Do" now for a believer, Overcomming your sins just fits right in there.

Well now one could argue that he meant " Other things" in his reference to " Work." Well , what things? Evangelizing is what some believe is the " Work of God", spending your time converting others or comvincing others to Christ. Evangelism is the popular interpitation of what the Work of God is. I disagree with that interpitation, although along with my disagreement, I don't consider Evangelism as an evil thing to be doing. Although I think it is misguided direction, human to human attempt to  convert, I do not view it as a complette waste of time to try to help someone find God. I mean what have you got to loose? Does it anger God for people to try and lead someone to him? I doubt that, but eventually it barrells down to can the blind lead the blind? I think God has equipped his Holy Spirit enough to lead people to him as he so wills.

But the thing that Jesus did is to " Give us Authority to Work", which is permission to work on ourselves while we watch, or wait, for his return. There is the authority we have right there, or the responsibility, to " Work out our Salvation", which does not mean to qualify for it, its already a done deal, but the trails and tribulations that we must go through is not a done deal, we must now actively live out our lives with the time allotted to each of us. Jesus was given 30 years of " Living human Life", before his ministry even started. For what? To waste time and just wait until his time to preach and teach had come? What do you think he was doing for 30 years? He had not been baptised, not offically given the Holy Spirit, although he was conceived by it. He was never annointed by anyone of Gods Apostles, and he didnot start any kind of movement before he called his diciples. He spent that time " Overcomming." He was an exception , in that the sin he Overcame never existed within him, but it was always around him, such it is to be human, sin is ever present. Each time he denied sin from entering him, that was an act of Overcomming it, his battle with satan in Matt.4 was not his " Only battle with sin."

But Jesus " Overcame the World of Sin he faced." Thats what he spent his life doing, its exactly what a true believer in God must spend their life doing. He was not just bideing his time doing nothing. I think he may well have been teaching a lot of those years, since he did do some when he was 12. But he said it was time for him to go" Doing" about his Fathers business. Just what do you think the " Business of a believer is?" Oh how I would like to get into that, but I think I have said enough on this thread, I hold no wish to take it over.

Peace.

[captamajora]

the difference between works of the Law that preceed salvation or are used to appear righteous before God and the good works that follow salvation as a fruit of having been saved...

...after we are saved

Why don't you tell me what it means when God admonishes us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling...

Works that preceed salvation and works that occur after we are saved?  So you actually think there was a time when you weren't saved? 

See, I don't believe that there was a time that I wasn't saved.  I and everyone else have always been saved, we just haven't always known that. 

I would state it as works that occur after the realization of salvation.  Salvation isn't a switch that was off and then all of a sudden was turned on.  People aren't unsaved and then become saved.  What happens is that they are given the TESTIMONY, each in their own order.  They aren't saved in their own order, they are given the testimony that they are saved, each in their own order.

Like I said in another thread, a tree planted in the light will produce good fruit.  It doesn't have to think about it.  It doesn't have to battle, or struggle, or force itself to produce fruit...because it does it AUTOMATICALLY.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make to Mikiel, but he kept missing it.  I was never condoning a lazy walk with God or intimating that one can live as sinfully as they want because all are saved.  My point was missed terribly.

If you have to struggle, battle, scratch, kick and scream your way into a walk with God, then, IMO, you haven't been given the testimony of pure LOVE yet.

Those immersed in infinite love will automatically live in LOVE. They won't have to even think about it, just as the tree doesn't have to think about producing fruit- it just happens.

I was never saying "Do what you want."  I was saying that if you have to think about how to live, then it is not coming naturally!

You shouldn't have to think about it or carry flash cards in your pocket.  It just happens.

I guess that would be what you call the works (I would call "living") after the realization of God's infinite, unconditional LOVE (not those that proceed salvation).

As far as "fear and trembling" is concerned.  I'm not sure what book of the Bible it is in but Paul told believers to greet Timothy with "fear and trembling". I don't think that this meant that they should cower and shake uncontrollably in his presence.  It meant that they should show him respect and honor.

I believe that "our own salvtion" is our personal salvation that we receive through our knowledge of God on a daily basis.  We should regard the salvation that we encounter every day with fear and trembling.  Even though we have always been saved, each day that I think of it and realize it all over again and it affects my life each and every day.  It renews me daily!  It renews me and fills me with peace and comfort in the face of this terrible world. In that way, I continually respect and honor God for giving me this knowledge, and for saving me daily through this realization.

[PaulTheJesusFreak]

Somebody stated in another thread, "We are all on the cross right now..." This is similar to the ubiquitous Christian catch-phrase, "this is my cross to bear."

I always wondered, If we all have to bear and carry our own "cross", get up on our cross, and eventually DIE (on our cross)...then are the "wages" of sin being paid for TWICE?

The wages (cost) of sin is death. We say that through Jesus' suffering and death that He COMPLETELY paid for sin. 

If death is the cost of sin, doesn't everyone who dies pay for sin?  Don't be so quick to say "no." 

The wages of sin is death. 

If I should die, then I have paid the wages of sin.

Then we say that it was Jesus' sufferings and death that paid for sin.  So, now suffering is part of the payment for sin.

Guess what...I suffer!  I suffer and I will eventually die like billions of other people. 

Jesus Christ suffered and died and completely paid for sin by suffering and dying while every person on earth has also suffered and died or will suffer and die.

Why does God demand that the penalty of sin be paid for twice? 

We say that God no longer counts our sin against us.  We say that since Jesus (who was faultless) died, we are completely without sin in God's eyes.

If God is no longer counting our sins against us, why does everyone have to pay the wages of sin? Why does God require us to pay the wages of sin when:
a.) sins have already been paid for and...
b.) sins are no longer being ascribed to us?

Some people say that the wages of sin is "eternal" death, i.e.- death without end (no resurrection).  For one thing, the Bible never says anything about the wages of sin being permanent death. No duration is mentioned...just death.

If the wages of sin truly were permanent death, then Jesus did not completely pay for sin because He was not eternally dead.  So, it is clear that the wages of sin is the state of death, duration being of no consequence.  Jesus was dead for three days while others have been dead for 5,000+ years.  You could add another million years to that and it doesn't change the fact that it isn't the duration but rather the "act" of succumbing to death, and therfore, being in the state of death.

If the wages of sin is death and the wages have already been paid for, then we should have NO death.  We should have NO death right now! As we know, this comes later at the consummation, when death is abolished.

So, have our sins been paid for or not?  They have but it hasn't been enacted yet?  If someone wrotes a decree but the decree will only go into effect later, does the decree really exist now?

It the eradication of death validates the existance of this decree, and death has not been eradicated...does the decree exist in the present? Is the decree presently fulfilled?

I love it when people say "ALL is fulfilled!"  Really?  You must not have noticed but we are all still dying.  Each one of us are still paying for sin. I guess they missed that somehow...

So, Jesus pays for our sins now by paying for them later, and after we've all paid the same penalty?

We are in the flesh, and we are not perfect. For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Since we do sin, we must still die, because the curse of Adam and Eve has not been lifted. We are saved by Grace through Christ. His Sacrifice allows ALL to be saved in the end. It ended any animal sacrifices any longer, and did away with the old law. He also had to die so others may live, again. If Christ had not resurrected Himself, then no one would ever live again in the next life. When He returns in the Second Coming, every Christian will be brought back to life, and later unbelievers. Since Christ was the atonement for sin, it is behind us. While sin still exists, it is wiped out, all sins of the world have been forgiven. We still live with the curse of death, though. And once we are all immortal and perfected after we have been born again into immortality, we will not be able to sin anymore, and sin will be done away with. Its all forgiven, that is what matters. Christ died to atone for sin, so that every human may be FORGIVEN. But, we still must die, 'for the wages of sin is death... but the Gift of God...'

Christ, was the ultimate atonement for sin, so we may be forgiven, while we still live with the curse of death due to original sin. Sins are all forgiven, Christ fullfilled the law, etc, but death will not be done away with until He returns, and niether will sin. But because He did die to atone for sin, it has been forgiven.