Unusual theory on universal salvation

[lomarah]

Does it matter if their in a lesser state? As long as their all in heaven and have access to Jesus I don't see what the problem is. Perhaps it is pride, the fear that someone else will have more than us. Jesus said, to sell earthly treasures and you will have treasure in heaven. There is clearly rewards for those who have done good work for the lord, if there are those who have suffered for the gospel, they should be rewarded for their sacrifice and Jesus does reward them, which gives them another reason to lay down their lives for him.

No, it is not pride at all, I just can't imagine the saints and God not wanting all of His children to be blessed as fully and completely as all the others, and not giving them a chance to be. Can you imagine being in an upper caste and your children or spouse not being able to be? 

[thinktank]

Hey youve got to motivate christians somehow, having rewards motivates us to do good, we can sort out who gets what later, but the main reward and focus of christ was eternal life, or the crown of life, which most here believe will be given to all men.

I think there is a parable where those who laboured in the field for days got the same reward as those who laboured only an hour. Since the only promise that Jesus has made is life, then it means bonuses are something that the lord can give to anyone who he chooses without complaints from others.

[Beloved Servant]

15 But we shall lovingly hold to the truth, and shall in all respects grow up into union with Him who is our Head, even Christ.
16 Dependent on Him, the whole body--its various parts closely fitting and firmly adhering to one another — grows by the aid of every contributory link,
with power proportioned to the need of each individual part, so as to build itself up in a spirit of love.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The Tabernacle shows different levels of experience in the Lord, but all ultimately "end up" in the Holy of Holies. Parable of the talents?  :dontknow:

[shawn]

I don't think it is so much about "lesser state" but more about the idea of a caste system of any sort.  It smells funny to the spirit, if that makes sense.

I think that there are rewards in Heaven, some will go into it with little, others with much -- but I also believe that this is not a permanent state.  It is of my belief and opinion that even if you walked into the throne of God's court room stark naked, and without a heavenly penny to your name, you can in the span of a few thousand years become as rewarded as he would have been if he had a head start on Earth.  Basically; Heavenly Poverty if it can even exist at all, is not permanent, and any sort of caste system in Heaven is not set in stone.

It'd be odd if the purified pauper had no opportunity to regain what he could have had ahead of time if he'd only been a "good Christian" on Earth.  Such permanence of a thing would require a diminishment of Eternity's perpetual blessedness, of which growth is a blessing.

There is some scripture that supports this line of thinking.  It might not sit right with some of us but I believe it to be true.  We are not talking about a traditional caste system where groups of people are deprived and ostracized.  We are talking about some being given certain responsibilities in Heaven.  Are not there 12 judges for the tribes of Judah?  These are places of authority given to the disciples.  None will be spiritual paupers in the presence of the Lord.  But, I truly believe some who used their talents for the Kingdom, those who were faithful, obedient but most of all who loved the Lord and their neighbor will be given special responsibilities.

[Nil Recurring]

I don't think it is so much about "lesser state" but more about the idea of a caste system of any sort.  It smells funny to the spirit, if that makes sense.

I think that there are rewards in Heaven, some will go into it with little, others with much -- but I also believe that this is not a permanent state.  It is of my belief and opinion that even if you walked into the throne of God's court room stark naked, and without a heavenly penny to your name, you can in the span of a few thousand years become as rewarded as he would have been if he had a head start on Earth.  Basically; Heavenly Poverty if it can even exist at all, is not permanent, and any sort of caste system in Heaven is not set in stone.

It'd be odd if the purified pauper had no opportunity to regain what he could have had ahead of time if he'd only been a "good Christian" on Earth.  Such permanence of a thing would require a diminishment of Eternity's perpetual blessedness, of which growth is a blessing.

There is some scripture that supports this line of thinking.  It might not sit right with some of us but I believe it to be true.  We are not talking about a traditional caste system where groups of people are deprived and ostracized.  We are talking about some being given certain responsibilities in Heaven.  Are not there 12 judges for the tribes of Judah?  These are places of authority given to the disciples.  None will be spiritual paupers in the presence of the Lord.  But, I truly believe some who used their talents for the Kingdom, those who were faithful, obedient but most of all who loved the Lord and their neighbor will be given special responsibilities.

This is what I was thinking as well. Greater responsibility and privilege in the coming ages. In the end when God is "All in all" it will all even out anyways.

[Lefein]

The kings are equal to their people.  Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.

The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved.  There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in.  Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner.  It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.

If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with.  And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...

If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And may I put forth the thought that we don't have to die to receive our inheritance......He already did it for us......

[Lefein]

Perhaps we do have to die (not physically perhaps), and that is partly what is meant when we are told to die to self.  :dontknow:

[Nil Recurring]

If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with.  And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...

If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.

I think paradise will be equally wonderful to some people, some may just have more responsibility placed on them. But in the presence of Christ I believe everyone will be MORE then happy with whatever they are given to do. Jealousy and selfishness will be a thing of the past.

[Cardinal]

Perhaps we do have to die (not physically perhaps), and that is partly what is meant when we are told to die to self.  :dontknow:

:cloud9: Absolutely.....but my point was that we can experience heaven now. Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being. Paul said our conversation is from heaven. You can't speak from a place you're not. Walking in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, is the same as walking in heaven, and we can do it without physically dying. That's basically what He said to Nicodemus: I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven. My  :2c: Blessings....

[shawn]

I guess we look at this very different Lefein.  I have zero issue with some Christians being rewarded in heaven greater than others.  I actually find it perfectly fair.

If one person works hard on earth do you believe he should be forced to split his fruits of labor with the person who chooses not to work?  Oh wait bad example.   :laughing7:  Why would the fairness be any different in heaven?  Why shouldn't those who gave up their lives through martyrdom be given a reward in heaven for doing so?  I don't see what isn't "fair" about that.

[thinktank]

The kings are equal to their people.  Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.

The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved.  There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in.  Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner.  It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.

If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with.  And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...

If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.

I don't like your idea of heaven being one of everything the same, sounds like a place of the clones. I want a heaven of originality and rewards, wheres the fun if everyone wears Gold?

Also the disciples of Jesus have been given positions around the throne of Jesus and their names on the pillars of new Jerusalem. To take away these privelages from them is criminal. I for one will have no problem having less than these great men, who deserve great rewards for the suffering they went through. Mary is also should be a great women in heaven, although I don't belive shes the queen of heaven.

[Johann]

Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it.  Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell.  You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more.  And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better.  If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right.  Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance.  This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.

No, no, no, it isn't like that. Only if the Holy Spirit has indwelled you, and you refuse His help in eradicating sin, or perhaps refuse some specific command, and you don't repent of it, forcing the Holy Spirit to retreat, would you get the many lashes in Hell.

Not to sound offensive or hurtful, but if you still think you have to become perfect by your own will, or that becoming the image of God is works salvation, the Holy Spirit hasn't indwelled you yet.

Till then, obey the Golden Rule and try to find Christ within you by meditation and prayer. Christ will give you the Holy Spirit.   

[Johann]

Exactly...so why would you even consider something like this?  This is a works based salvation doctrine disguised as UR.  I apologize if I sound overly exciteable about this subject.  But, when I was reading that it reminded me of those years of trying to be "good enough" and the insanity that ensued.

Well, I think it to be the truth.

Do you know most of the people through history who espoused universalism (until the rise and decline of the Universalist Church in America), have had positions close to the one advocated on Hall Worthington's site, though of course they all used different terminology from each other. Some had slightly different understandings too.

When opponents of universalism say UR is a license to sin, I like to point out that most of the proponents of UR throughout history have had a view of salvation they would say is works based and way too strict.   :grin:

It isn't works based in the way they think it is though.

 

[Johann]

The kings are equal to their people.  Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.

The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved.  There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in.  Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner.  It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.

If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with.  And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...

If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.

From reading the Bible, studying mysticism, and some other things, and adding it all together, I've begun to wonder if perhaps God really is prepping humanity for an inexpressibly glorious future, one we can't even comprehend with our limited earthly minds. Any one else kinda feel this way?

Of course, we can't even begin to conjecture what we don't even remotely know.

[Beloved Servant]

Yes, I do.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: So do I.... :thumbsup:

[shawn]

Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it.  Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell.  You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more.  And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better.  If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right.  Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance.  This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.

No, no, no, it isn't like that. Only if the Holy Spirit has indwelled you, and you refuse His help in eradicating sin, or perhaps refuse some specific command, and you don't repent of it, forcing the Holy Spirit to retreat, would you get the many lashes in Hell.

If you still think you have to become perfect by your own will, or that becoming the image of Jesus is works salvation, the Holy Spirit hasn't indwelled you yet. Till then, obey the Golden Rule and try to find Christ within you by meditation and prayer. Christ will give you the Holy Spirit.

I do not believe anyone obtains perfection in this life...not a single person.  I think that relationship brings a more Christ like image and it's called the sanctification process.  Do I believe that leads to perfection in this life?  No.  And saying someone you haven't met who disagrees with you doesn't have the Holy Spirit is quite judgmental.  Do, I believe becoming like Christ is a works based process no.  I think a doctrine that teaches you must be perfect to avoid hell would lead people to work based thought and living. 

If this doctrine that you believe states that we must be perfect...perfectly the image of Christ to avoid the many lashes in hell then I would have a very hard time accepting that.  That doctrine would be a heavy yoke...not a light one.  It would bring anxiety and depression rather than peace and joy.

Do you have to be able to perform miracles and walk on water like Christ to avoid hell?

[micah7:9]

 And I do as well. As was promised and I await. :icon_king:

This gospel that I believe will make me complete I believe this, should it be in the Lords will that I preform miracles such as walking on water, then I pray that I walk on water. Is this an award for running the race, this I do not know, but I hope that if I am called to do so I will do it with humility and give Him the Glory.

[shawn]

The kings are equal to their people.  Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.

The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved.  There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in.  Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner.  It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.

If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with.  And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...

If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.

From reading the Bible, studying mysticism, and some other things, and adding it all together, I've begun to wonder if perhaps God really is prepping humanity for an inexpressibly glorious future, one we can't even comprehend with our limited earthly minds. Any one else kinda feel this way?

Of course, we can't even begin to conjecture what we don't even remotely know.

Why would you study mysticism?

[Johann]

Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it.  Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell.  You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more.  And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better.  If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right.  Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance.  This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.

No, no, no, it isn't like that. Only if the Holy Spirit has indwelled you, and you refuse His help in eradicating sin, or perhaps refuse some specific command, and you don't repent of it, forcing the Holy Spirit to retreat, would you get the many lashes in Hell.

If you still think you have to become perfect by your own will, or that becoming the image of Jesus is works salvation, the Holy Spirit hasn't indwelled you yet. Till then, obey the Golden Rule and try to find Christ within you by meditation and prayer. Christ will give you the Holy Spirit.

I do not believe anyone obtains perfection in this life...not a single person.  I think that relationship brings a more Christ like image and it's called the sanctification process.  Do I believe that leads to perfection in this life?  No.  And saying someone you haven't met who disagrees with you doesn't have the Holy Spirit is quite judgmental. 

If this doctrine that you believe states that we must be perfect...perfectly the image of Christ to avoid the many lashes in hell then I would have a very hard time accepting that.  That doctrine would be a heavy yoke...not a light one.  It would bring anxiety and depression rather than peace and joy.

Do you have to be able to perform miracles and walk on water like Christ to avoid hell?

When I said you don't have the Holy Spirit yet, I honestly did not mean it in a judgmental way. When I typed it out, I thought it sounded different from what I meant it, but didn't really know how to word it differently.

You see, I know exactly how you feel, where you're coming from, and what a terrible residue legalism combined with the doctrine of eternal torment can leave.

What I write does sound all legalistic and judgmental to you, but it is not. I just wish you could catch this vision of the Love our Father has for us that I've caught over the past year. Through that lens, everything I write would have a slightly different cast to it.


I think few people will have to suffer the many lashes in Hell. Only those who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and then proceeded to disobey Him would suffer the many lashes.

If you are aware of your sinful state, and you want to change, you'll be one of the first out of Hell, because you'll be a willing participant to the Holy Spirit's work in you.

Hell isn't real flames, they're spiritual flames perfectly tailored for each persons spiritual condition. Don't fear them, embrace the thought of becoming perfect.   

God loves you more than you can comprehend, remember that! 



 

[Johann]

The kings are equal to their people.  Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.

The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved.  There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in.  Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner.  It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.

If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with.  And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...

If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.

From reading the Bible, studying mysticism, and some other things, and adding it all together, I've begun to wonder if perhaps God really is prepping humanity for an inexpressibly glorious future, one we can't even comprehend with our limited earthly minds. Any one else kinda feel this way?

Of course, we can't even begin to conjecture what we don't even remotely know.

Why would you study mysticism?

Christian mysticism has got a lot of truth in it. I like Origen, Isaac of Syria, Johann Tauler, the mystery writer of Theologia Germanica, Hans Denck, George Fox, Jacob Boehme, William Law, and Jane Lead. Many of these you can read online.

I don't read Edgar Cayce and such who are considered to have been Christian mystics by some.   

[jabcat]

Ephesians 2
7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.   
8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[lomarah]

Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it.  Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell.  You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more.  And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better.  If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right.  Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance.  This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.

No, no, no, it isn't like that. Only if the Holy Spirit has indwelled you, and you refuse His help in eradicating sin, or perhaps refuse some specific command, and you don't repent of it, forcing the Holy Spirit to retreat, would you get the many lashes in Hell.

If you still think you have to become perfect by your own will, or that becoming the image of Jesus is works salvation, the Holy Spirit hasn't indwelled you yet. Till then, obey the Golden Rule and try to find Christ within you by meditation and prayer. Christ will give you the Holy Spirit.

I do not believe anyone obtains perfection in this life...not a single person.  I think that relationship brings a more Christ like image and it's called the sanctification process.  Do I believe that leads to perfection in this life?  No.  And saying someone you haven't met who disagrees with you doesn't have the Holy Spirit is quite judgmental. 

If this doctrine that you believe states that we must be perfect...perfectly the image of Christ to avoid the many lashes in hell then I would have a very hard time accepting that.  That doctrine would be a heavy yoke...not a light one.  It would bring anxiety and depression rather than peace and joy.

Do you have to be able to perform miracles and walk on water like Christ to avoid hell?

When I said you don't have the Holy Spirit yet, I honestly did not mean it in a judgmental way. When I typed it out, I thought it sounded different from what I meant it, but didn't really know how to word it differently.

You see, I know exactly how you feel, where you're coming from, and what a terrible residue legalism combined with the doctrine of eternal torment can leave.

What I write does sound all legalistic and judgmental to you, but it is not. I just wish you could catch this vision of the Love our Father has for us that I've caught over the past year. Through that lens, everything I write would have a slightly different cast to it.


I think few people will have to suffer the many lashes in Hell. Only those who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and then proceeded to disobey Him would suffer the many lashes.

If you are aware of your sinful state, and you want to change, you'll be one of the first out of Hell, because you'll be a willing participant to the Holy Spirit's work in you.

Hell isn't real flames, they're spiritual flames perfectly tailored for each persons spiritual condition. Don't fear them, embrace the thought of becoming perfect.   

God loves you more than you can comprehend, remember that! 

I must've totally misunderstood what Hall was saying because I thought he taught that all people have the Holy Spirit or "Light" (Jesus) within them that enlightens them to their sin, and the parable of the talents refers to whether people respond to the light and grow their portion of the Spirit or whether they ignore it or "bury" it.  :dontknow: