The Return of Christ question

[shine]

Do Universal Christians believe in the literal/defacto return of Christ?
Or do they believe HE has already returned on Pentecost Day?

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I don't know what they believe.

[shine]

Is 'Tentmakers' not Universal Christian???     I dunno??

What do YOU believe, Lee?       Interesting discussions on this site.
Don't let me weary anyone..
shine

[claypot]

Do Universal Christians believe in the literal/defacto return of Christ?
Or do they believe HE has already returned on Pentecost Day?

I don't know what Universal Christians believe but can you clarify your question a bit?

Where is Jesus returning to in your opinion and where did He go?

Please explain what and where these 2 places are.

Is 'Pentecost day' a date on a calendar to you?

cp

[Nicolás]

I assume that by "Universal Christians" you meant Christians who believe in Universal Reconciliation. These are called UR in this site, while believers in Eternal Torment are called ET.

As with all beliefs, there are different views.

Many people got to believe in Universal Reconciliation from  Hanson's four works, whose view is preterist. The coming of Christ is the judgment that fell on Jerusalem, nothing to do with Holy spirit in Pentecost day.

See
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/signs-of-end-times.htm

There's a lot of material here:
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/


Ray Smith http://bible-truths.com/ is a UR too, but he believes not all of Matt 24 happened yet. Have a look at his explanation of Lazarus and the rich man, it's the best one ever.

I would dare to say most UR are Preterists.

[shine]

Hi Claypot,

Humm... I was speaking of Pentecost Day recorded in Acts 1-2.

Christ assention, and the return of the Holy Spirit.

Who lives in my heart/heaven.  This to *me is a spiritual return.  
I was kinda hoping HE would come back to Jerusalem at the 7th trump. (defacto)
After the reign of Antichrist at the 6th trump.

When Christ returns, the flesh age is over.. we are all changed at the last trump (#7), Right?
We have still got flesh to contend with... 'flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven.."




I may be on the wrong board???  Universal Christians? Don't mean to cause confusion etc...
Forgive my ignorance.  

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Shine... :hithere:

:welcome: to Tentmaker!  :icon_king:

I may be on the wrong board???  Universal Christians? Don't mean to cause confusion etc...
Forgive my ignorance.

Most of the members of this board believe in Universal Reconciliation [UR] which in essence is the SALVATION of ALL Men...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

I may be on the wrong board???  Universal Christians? Don't mean to cause confusion etc...
Forgive my ignorance.

I think it has several names.
Universal Salvation.
Universal Reconciliation
Universal Restitution.
The Larger Hope.
Likely forgot a few.

Maybe Univeral Christians is another one?

A mod surely will correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't really matter how exactly you call it.
But according to board rules it has to mean: All are saved. And the Son is the only way to get saved.



As Nicolás wrote we call it UR.
Mainstream Christianity is referered to as ET => Eternal Torment/Torture
Annihilation is not so often discussed here and as not real shorthand besides perhaps ED => Eternal Destruction

There are also Universalists. That's more new age stuff. (not based upon the Son)

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Shine, I will try to say what "I" mean.

I do not know what to call my self, I have beliefs not held by

the many.

I believe:

 :HeartThrob::
• that all things (atoms) man woman and things, and space in between atoms will be brought back to God in some eon and then beyond.(when time-eon-ends or out side of time)
:HeartThrob:
• that IN the Anointed (Christ), all the above will be joined in union with Father( and this IS done already )


• after JC killed Death 2009 years ago( placed it in the lake of fire), that was the start of all eternal life, immortality, in God's Graced eons,  AND All will live forever.
• All will feel His Drawing/Dragging


• the day of His appearing/second coming has started 2009 years ago and last until All are restored
• I believe that when you become aware of Him and His Drawings, there is no sin in this life when you come to the understanding thatGrace, (Matt Not the 16:17 revealed-the alleged rock lie, 'grace, the divine influence upon the human heart and it's influence in Life, your life) then we are under a law of the new life IN Christ and not under law-death-sin or the tree of Knowledge of good and evil...


This will be enough to get others telling you what is and ain't UR. This IS only my opinion...

[/list][/list]

[Nicolás]

LEE IS IN BLUE


•after JC killed Death 2009 years ago, that was the beginning of all eternal life, immortality, All will live forever.

2009- 33 (APROX)= 1976 (aprox). 2009 years ago He was a baby

•All will feel His Drawing/Dragging

Agreed. John 6:44 – 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

•the day of His appearing/second coming is started 2009 years ago and last until All are restored

2009 Years ago was His first Coming!!!!


Shine: prophecies concerning events that were to happen prior to the Parousia or Second Coming hadn't fullfilled by pentecost day. They were fullfilled by 70 aD , the destruction of the temple and jewish system. Then christianism was established, and you might call that the Second coming. Or, you may think not all of the prophecy was fullfilled, and that the second coming will be a physical one. The coming of the Holy Spirit is a different subject, it is never mentioned related with the second coming of christ. Check the links I told you before

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Like with a lot of UR members, I have a very hard time understanding their tongs, Don't have a clew what Apoligeticking means.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

2009 years ago give or take a decade or two or what ever. Agreed with the 70 ad.

[Raggedy Anne]

Hi Shine,

I'm not a Preterist, (don't believe all of Matthew 24 has been fulfilled). 

I do believe God is drawing ALL into Christ, but even after many years of believing this, I could not say how in a dogmatic way.
In other words, I don't know if there are any more judgments for man after he/she leaves this body - I just don't know, but I
do not believe in literal, fiery eternal torment which is the teaching and belief of every mainstream Christian Denomination I ever
had any dealings with, with the exception of Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists who believe in annihilation of some.

ETers, be they Protestant or Catholic seem to agree on one main thing -- HELL.  So that is a very important part of their dogma
and the common thread that holds them together other than belief in Jesus.  Also, those who believe in ET seem to be rather
convinced that the "Jesus Cults" such as Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, 7th Day Adventists, & such are all going to hell BECAUSE
they do not believe in hell.

I don't know when or if Jesus is coming back to the earth physically.  He has come to me in Spirit, but I've
only experienced him via flesh and blood through my fellow believers in Christ.     I think that our spiritual bodies
already exist (we walk in them), but they are invisible.

Hope this helps a little.

Anne

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi Shine........Father is giving people from all denominations and even no denominations, the revelation of UR, seemingly all at once. Consequently, they have come out of all different teachings, so there is no one consensus on how that will occur.

As for ME; He has come, He will come, and He is coming. Blessings.....

[shine]

All interesting reads. Thanks.

A few thoughts:  I think the son of predition is Satan who along with the fallen angels have already been sentenced to perish.  Predition means, 'to perish'.         Jude speaks of these as 'twice dead' plucked up by the roots.

As for ET.  I don't believe anyone is burning like a piece of bacon.  However I believe there is a place where unbelievers are kept and are divided by a great gulf.  These can see what the 'could' have had...heaven.
The water the rich man asked for is Christ.  The tormenting flames are flames of shame, much greater than any fleshy burning.    Plus, flesh is not found in the next realm and ya can't burn spirits or spiritual bodies.
2 Esdras in the apocrpha is a good read, ch. 7

I think those who reject the Lord will be 'turned to ashes from within'....or made nothingless/blotted out.
Therefore there shall be nothing or nobody to be sad about.

Nobody who does not love the Lord will be in eternity, thank goodness, else we'd have this same mess all over again.    HE is the love of my life and HIS touch is compared to warm honey within.   I look for HIS appearing everyday as HE prepares me to stand in the evil day.  HE is reality, not religion.

Thanks for letting me share.
shine (in the Jawja mtns. where we do pump in the SONshine and pump out the moonshne.. lol) (I jest)

[WhiteWings]

I think those who reject the Lord will be 'turned to ashes from within'....or made nothingless/blotted out.
Therefore there shall be nothing or nobody to be sad about.

Gonna be a very empty heaven then with 98% of humanity blotted out. According to teh UR teaching 100% of humanity will end up in heaven.

[Chris]

I may be on the wrong board???  Universal Christians? Don't mean to cause confusion etc...
Forgive my ignorance.

I think it has several names.
Universal Salvation.
Universal Reconciliation
Universal Restitution.
The Larger Hope.
Likely forgot a few.

Maybe Univeral Christians is another one?

A mod surely will correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't really matter how exactly you call it.
But according to board rules it has to mean: All are saved. And the Son is the only way to get saved.



As Nicolás wrote we call it UR.
Mainstream Christianity is referered to as ET => Eternal Torment/Torture
Annihilation is not so often discussed here and as not real shorthand besides perhaps ED => Eternal Destruction

There are also Universalists. That's more new age stuff. (not based upon the Son)

WW,

I think all of the "UR" types that you listed are considered "Universalists" (ie "Christian Universalists"). So with regard to what I put in red, perhaps you mean Unitarian?

[Chris]

Shine,

Can you give any examples, from scripture, in which "destruction" means complete annihilation?

[WhiteWings]

I may be on the wrong board???  Universal Christians? Don't mean to cause confusion etc...
Forgive my ignorance.

I think it has several names.
Universal Salvation.
Universal Reconciliation
Universal Restitution.
The Larger Hope.
Likely forgot a few.

Maybe Univeral Christians is another one?

A mod surely will correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't really matter how exactly you call it.
But according to board rules it has to mean: All are saved. And the Son is the only way to get saved.



As Nicolás wrote we call it UR.
Mainstream Christianity is referered to as ET => Eternal Torment/Torture
Annihilation is not so often discussed here and as not real shorthand besides perhaps ED => Eternal Destruction

There are also Universalists. That's more new age stuff. (not based upon the Son)

WW,

I think all of the "UR" types that you listed are considered "Universalists" (ie "Christian Universalists"). So with regard to what I put in red, perhaps you mean Unitarian?

Likely so. Not sure but I think I possibly seen Universalist linked to someting not Christ based.

[jabcat]

WW, maybe you're referring to Unitarian Universalists.  As I understand, several years ago they went the way of extremely "liberal", including that "all roads lead to God/it doesn't really matter what you believe about Jesus, etc.".  They don't really hold to the scriptures.  That's the kind of "universalism" that Gary A., Thomas Kissinger, L.Ray Smith, etc., who believe in Biblical/Jesus-centered Universalism part companies with - to which I very much agree.   :2c:

[shine]

The Bible sez all Israel shall be saved.   "Israel' means those who prevail with God.

As for Satan,  I may stand alone on this, but..  I believe Ezekiel 28 regards Satan, called the Prince of Tyrus.
"Tyrus'/Tyre means 'rock'.. but not our R ock,  Christ, as in the Song of Moses.

Ezekiel 28:18 speaks of Satan's fate.... " I WILL BRING THEE TO ASHES UPON THE EARTH IN THE SIGHT OF ALL THEM THAT BEHOLD THEE...... 19.  " THOU SHALT BE A TERROR AND NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANYMORE.

Then in Rev. 20:10  We read the devil is cast into the lake of fire (God is a consuming fire)  and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"....   simply means to be blotted out or turned to ashes.

There are other passages.

As for the comment, there will be very few in heaven...  Naw... Rev. 7: 9  speaks of a number so great nobody can count it.   "a great mulitude which no man could number of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues stood before the throne....

Hope to see ya there!

I don't have alot of time to play on the net,  so  I did the best I could with this..   
Thanks again to all who shared their thoughts.
shine

[WhiteWings]

WW, maybe you're referring to Unitarian Universalists.  As I understand, several years ago they went the way of extremely "liberal", including that "all roads lead to God/it doesn't really matter what you believe about Jesus, etc.".  They don't really hold to the scriptures.  That's the kind of "universalism" that Gary A., Thomas Kissinger, L.Ray Smith, etc., who believe in Biblical/Jesus-centered Universalism part companies with - to which I very much agree.   :2c:

James,
I agree. It's just that I've seen terms mixed up at some places. Even seen something like the universe itself is  a god. Or something similar.

Anyway that's why I gave a defenition that will avoid all confusion. At least I thought it would...  :winkgrin:

All are saved. And the Son is the only way to get saved.

[WhiteWings]

Then in Rev. 20:10  We read the devil is cast into the lake of fire (God is a consuming fire)  and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"....   simply means to be blotted out or turned to ashes.

Ever and ever means. Age during.

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

Why would there be any testing if something is to be blotted out? Turn up the heat and get it over with...
God is a refiners fire. God is a fullars soar.
IMO there is constant checking done if the gold is pure with that black stone.
The impurities are removed and indeed blotted out.

There is a lot of knowledge hidden in de meaning of words. At least for me.
Tormented. Judged. Chastened. All negative words on the surface. Perhaps they even are a bit negative to endure. But the deeper meaning is positive. Very positive.

[Cardinal]

There is a lot of knowledge hidden in the meaning of words. At least for me.
Tormented. Judged. Chastened. All negative words on the surface. Perhaps they even are a bit negative to endure. But the deeper meaning is positive. Very positive.

:cloud9: AMEN, yes there is.... :thumbsup:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Lee Damboise