Do Universal Christians believe in the literal/defacto return of Christ?
Or do they believe HE has already returned on Pentecost Day?
I don't know what they believe.
Is 'Tentmakers' not Universal Christian??? I dunno??
What do YOU believe, Lee? Interesting discussions on this site.
Don't let me weary anyone..
shine
Quote from: shine on November 10, 2009, 09:10:36 PM
Do Universal Christians believe in the literal/defacto return of Christ?
Or do they believe HE has already returned on Pentecost Day?
I don't know what Universal Christians believe but can you clarify your question a bit?
Where is Jesus returning to in your opinion and where did He go?
Please explain what and where these 2 places are.
Is 'Pentecost day' a date on a calendar to you?
cp
I assume that by "Universal Christians" you meant Christians who believe in Universal Reconciliation. These are called UR in this site, while believers in Eternal Torment are called ET.
As with all beliefs, there are different views.
Many people got to believe in Universal Reconciliation from Hanson's four works, whose view is preterist. The coming of Christ is the judgment that fell on Jerusalem, nothing to do with Holy spirit in Pentecost day.
See
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/signs-of-end-times.htm
There's a lot of material here:
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/
Ray Smith http://bible-truths.com/ is a UR too, but he believes not all of Matt 24 happened yet. Have a look at his explanation of Lazarus and the rich man, it's the best one ever.
I would dare to say most UR are Preterists.
Hi Claypot,
Humm... I was speaking of Pentecost Day recorded in Acts 1-2.
Christ assention, and the return of the Holy Spirit.
Who lives in my heart/heaven. This to *me is a spiritual return.
I was kinda hoping HE would come back to Jerusalem at the 7th trump. (defacto)
After the reign of Antichrist at the 6th trump.
When Christ returns, the flesh age is over.. we are all changed at the last trump (#7), Right?
We have still got flesh to contend with... 'flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven.."
I may be on the wrong board??? Universal Christians? Don't mean to cause confusion etc...
Forgive my ignorance.
willieH: Hi Shine... :hithere:
:welcome: to Tentmaker! :icon_king:
Quote from: shine on November 10, 2009, 10:04:04 PM
I may be on the wrong board??? Universal Christians? Don't mean to cause confusion etc...
Forgive my ignorance.
Most of the members of this board believe in Universal Reconciliation [UR] which in essence is the SALVATION of ALL Men...
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: shine on November 10, 2009, 10:04:04 PM
I may be on the wrong board??? Universal Christians? Don't mean to cause confusion etc...
Forgive my ignorance.
I think it has several names.
Universal Salvation.
Universal Reconciliation
Universal Restitution.
The Larger Hope.
Likely forgot a few.
Maybe Univeral Christians is another one?
A mod surely will correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't really matter how exactly you call it.
But according to board rules it has to mean: All are saved. And the Son is the
only way to get saved.
As Nicolás wrote we call it UR.
Mainstream Christianity is referered to as ET => Eternal Torment/Torture
Annihilation is not so often discussed here and as not real shorthand besides perhaps ED => Eternal Destruction
There are also Universalists. That's more new age stuff. (not based upon the Son)
Shine, I will try to say what "I" mean.
I do not know what to call my self, I have beliefs not held by
the many.I believe:
:HeartThrob::- that all things (atoms) man woman and things, and space in between atoms will be brought back to God in some eon and then beyond.(when time-eon-ends or out side of time)
:HeartThrob:- that IN the Anointed (Christ), all the above will be joined in union with Father( and this IS done already )
- after JC killed Death 2009 years ago( placed it in the lake of fire), that was the start of all eternal life, immortality, in God's Graced eons, AND All will live forever.
- All will feel His Drawing/Dragging
- the day of His appearing/second coming has started 2009 years ago and last until All are restored
- I believe that when you become aware of Him and His Drawings, there is no sin in this life when you come to the understanding thatGrace, (Matt Not the 16:17 revealed-the alleged rock lie, 'grace, the divine influence upon the human heart and it's influence in Life, your life) then we are under a law of the new life IN Christ and not under law-death-sin or the tree of Knowledge of good and evil...
This will be enough to get others telling you what is and ain't UR. This IS only my opinion...
[/list][/list]
LEE IS IN BLUE
•after JC killed Death 2009 years ago, that was the beginning of all eternal life, immortality, All will live forever.
2009- 33 (APROX)= 1976 (aprox). 2009 years ago He was a baby
•All will feel His Drawing/Dragging
Agreed. John 6:44 – 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
•the day of His appearing/second coming is started 2009 years ago and last until All are restored
2009 Years ago was His first Coming!!!!
Shine: prophecies concerning events that were to happen prior to the Parousia or Second Coming hadn't fullfilled by pentecost day. They were fullfilled by 70 aD , the destruction of the temple and jewish system. Then christianism was established, and you might call that the Second coming. Or, you may think not all of the prophecy was fullfilled, and that the second coming will be a physical one. The coming of the Holy Spirit is a different subject, it is never mentioned related with the second coming of christ. Check the links I told you before
Like with a lot of UR members, I have a very hard time understanding their tongs, Don't have a clew what Apoligeticking means.
2009 years ago give or take a decade or two or what ever. Agreed with the 70 ad.
Hi Shine,
I'm not a Preterist, (don't believe all of Matthew 24 has been fulfilled).
I do believe God is drawing ALL into Christ, but even after many years of believing this, I could not say how in a dogmatic way.
In other words, I don't know if there are any more judgments for man after he/she leaves this body - I just don't know, but I
do not believe in literal, fiery eternal torment which is the teaching and belief of every mainstream Christian Denomination I ever
had any dealings with, with the exception of Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists who believe in annihilation of some.
ETers, be they Protestant or Catholic seem to agree on one main thing -- HELL. So that is a very important part of their dogma
and the common thread that holds them together other than belief in Jesus. Also, those who believe in ET seem to be rather
convinced that the "Jesus Cults" such as Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, 7th Day Adventists, & such are all going to hell BECAUSE
they do not believe in hell.
I don't know when or if Jesus is coming back to the earth physically. He has come to me in Spirit, but I've
only experienced him via flesh and blood through my fellow believers in Christ. I think that our spiritual bodies
already exist (we walk in them), but they are invisible.
Hope this helps a little.
Anne
:cloud9: Hi Shine........Father is giving people from all denominations and even no denominations, the revelation of UR, seemingly all at once. Consequently, they have come out of all different teachings, so there is no one consensus on how that will occur.
As for ME; He has come, He will come, and He is coming. Blessings.....
All interesting reads. Thanks.
A few thoughts: I think the son of predition is Satan who along with the fallen angels have already been sentenced to perish. Predition means, 'to perish'. Jude speaks of these as 'twice dead' plucked up by the roots.
As for ET. I don't believe anyone is burning like a piece of bacon. However I believe there is a place where unbelievers are kept and are divided by a great gulf. These can see what the 'could' have had...heaven.
The water the rich man asked for is Christ. The tormenting flames are flames of shame, much greater than any fleshy burning. Plus, flesh is not found in the next realm and ya can't burn spirits or spiritual bodies.
2 Esdras in the apocrpha is a good read, ch. 7
I think those who reject the Lord will be 'turned to ashes from within'....or made nothingless/blotted out.
Therefore there shall be nothing or nobody to be sad about.
Nobody who does not love the Lord will be in eternity, thank goodness, else we'd have this same mess all over again. HE is the love of my life and HIS touch is compared to warm honey within. I look for HIS appearing everyday as HE prepares me to stand in the evil day. HE is reality, not religion.
Thanks for letting me share.
shine (in the Jawja mtns. where we do pump in the SONshine and pump out the moonshne.. lol) (I jest)
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 11:08:19 AM
I think those who reject the Lord will be 'turned to ashes from within'....or made nothingless/blotted out.
Therefore there shall be nothing or nobody to be sad about.
Gonna be a very empty heaven then with 98% of humanity blotted out. According to teh UR teaching 100% of humanity will end up in heaven.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 10, 2009, 10:18:46 PM
Quote from: shine on November 10, 2009, 10:04:04 PM
I may be on the wrong board??? Universal Christians? Don't mean to cause confusion etc...
Forgive my ignorance.
I think it has several names.
Universal Salvation.
Universal Reconciliation
Universal Restitution.
The Larger Hope.
Likely forgot a few.
Maybe Univeral Christians is another one?
A mod surely will correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't really matter how exactly you call it.
But according to board rules it has to mean: All are saved. And the Son is the only way to get saved.
As Nicolás wrote we call it UR.
Mainstream Christianity is referered to as ET => Eternal Torment/Torture
Annihilation is not so often discussed here and as not real shorthand besides perhaps ED => Eternal Destruction
There are also Universalists. That's more new age stuff. (not based upon the Son)
WW,
I think all of the "UR" types that you listed are considered "Universalists" (ie "Christian Universalists"). So with regard to what I put in red, perhaps you mean Unitarian?
Shine,
Can you give any examples, from scripture, in which "destruction" means complete annihilation?
Quote from: Chris on November 11, 2009, 02:58:44 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 10, 2009, 10:18:46 PM
Quote from: shine on November 10, 2009, 10:04:04 PM
I may be on the wrong board??? Universal Christians? Don't mean to cause confusion etc...
Forgive my ignorance.
I think it has several names.
Universal Salvation.
Universal Reconciliation
Universal Restitution.
The Larger Hope.
Likely forgot a few.
Maybe Univeral Christians is another one?
A mod surely will correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't really matter how exactly you call it.
But according to board rules it has to mean: All are saved. And the Son is the only way to get saved.
As Nicolás wrote we call it UR.
Mainstream Christianity is referered to as ET => Eternal Torment/Torture
Annihilation is not so often discussed here and as not real shorthand besides perhaps ED => Eternal Destruction
There are also Universalists. That's more new age stuff. (not based upon the Son)
WW,
I think all of the "UR" types that you listed are considered "Universalists" (ie "Christian Universalists"). So with regard to what I put in red, perhaps you mean Unitarian?
Likely so. Not sure but I think I
possibly seen Universalist linked to someting not Christ based.
WW, maybe you're referring to Unitarian Universalists. As I understand, several years ago they went the way of extremely "liberal", including that "all roads lead to God/it doesn't really matter what you believe about Jesus, etc.". They don't really hold to the scriptures. That's the kind of "universalism" that Gary A., Thomas Kissinger, L.Ray Smith, etc., who believe in Biblical/Jesus-centered Universalism part companies with - to which I very much agree. :2c:
The Bible sez all Israel shall be saved. "Israel' means those who prevail with God.
As for Satan, I may stand alone on this, but.. I believe Ezekiel 28 regards Satan, called the Prince of Tyrus.
"Tyrus'/Tyre means 'rock'.. but not our R ock, Christ, as in the Song of Moses.
Ezekiel 28:18 speaks of Satan's fate.... " I WILL BRING THEE TO ASHES UPON THE EARTH IN THE SIGHT OF ALL THEM THAT BEHOLD THEE...... 19. " THOU SHALT BE A TERROR AND NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANYMORE.
Then in Rev. 20:10 We read the devil is cast into the lake of fire (God is a consuming fire) and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever".... simply means to be blotted out or turned to ashes.
There are other passages.
As for the comment, there will be very few in heaven... Naw... Rev. 7: 9 speaks of a number so great nobody can count it. "a great mulitude which no man could number of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues stood before the throne....
Hope to see ya there!
I don't have alot of time to play on the net, so I did the best I could with this..
Thanks again to all who shared their thoughts.
shine
Quote from: jabcat on November 11, 2009, 08:09:06 PM
WW, maybe you're referring to Unitarian Universalists. As I understand, several years ago they went the way of extremely "liberal", including that "all roads lead to God/it doesn't really matter what you believe about Jesus, etc.". They don't really hold to the scriptures. That's the kind of "universalism" that Gary A., Thomas Kissinger, L.Ray Smith, etc., who believe in Biblical/Jesus-centered Universalism part companies with - to which I very much agree. :2c:
James,
I agree. It's just that I've seen terms mixed up at some places. Even seen something like the universe itself is a god. Or something similar.
Anyway that's why I gave a defenition that will avoid all confusion. At least I thought it would... :winkgrin:
QuoteAll are saved. And the Son is the only way to get saved.
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 09:15:19 PMThen in Rev. 20:10 We read the devil is cast into the lake of fire (God is a consuming fire) and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever".... simply means to be blotted out or turned to ashes.
Ever and ever means. Age during.
Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Why would there be any testing if something is to be blotted out? Turn up the heat and get it over with...
God is a refiners fire. God is a fullars soar.
IMO there is constant checking done if the gold is pure with that black stone.
The impurities are removed and indeed blotted out.
There is a lot of knowledge hidden in de meaning of words. At least for me.
Tormented. Judged. Chastened. All negative words on the surface. Perhaps they even are a bit negative to endure. But the deeper meaning is positive. Very positive.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2009, 10:46:08 PM
There is a lot of knowledge hidden in the meaning of words. At least for me.
Tormented. Judged. Chastened. All negative words on the surface. Perhaps they even are a bit negative to endure. But the deeper meaning is positive. Very positive.
:cloud9: AMEN, yes there is.... :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Lee Damboise
Quote from: WW
James,
I agree. It's just that I've seen terms mixed up at some places. Even seen something like the universe itself is a god. Or something similar.
White Wings,
Well, God is a very BIG GOD - so is it such a stretch to think that He who Created ALL things IS the UNIVERSE - God is ALL in ALL. Not to mention that God is invisible - yet also LIGHT. So I don't think people should be so hard on or afraid of 'New Age' believers. And I'm not very 'New Agey' but I can learn from them if my heart attitude is humble. It seems that whenever humility goes out the window, it doesn't really matter how much I think I know.
Anne
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 09:15:19 PM
The Bible sez all Israel shall be saved. "Israel' means those who prevail with God.
From where/what do you derive that definition of "Israel"?
Is not Paul speaking about both the Jews and the Gentiles (in fact, the full number of both) when he says "all Israel shall be saved" (including those who have - for a time - been cast away due to unbelief)?
Quote from: shine
As for Satan, I may stand alone on this, but.. I believe Ezekiel 28 regards Satan, called the Prince of Tyrus.
"Tyrus'/Tyre means 'rock'.. but not our R ock, Christ, as in the Song of Moses.
Yes, Tyrus/Tyre means "rock". What do you see as the correlation between satan and the prince of Tyrus?
Quote from: shine
Ezekiel 28:18 speaks of Satan's fate.... " I WILL BRING THEE TO ASHES UPON THE EARTH IN THE SIGHT OF ALL THEM THAT BEHOLD THEE...... 19. " THOU SHALT BE A TERROR AND NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANYMORE.
Isa 61:1-4 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Quote from: shine
Then in Rev. 20:10 We read the devil is cast into the lake of fire (God is a consuming fire) and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever".... simply means to be blotted out or turned to ashes.
Surely judgment awaits all of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life, but the only ones specifically mentioned as being cast into the LOF are "the devil", "the beast" and "the false prophet". Do you see any connection(s) between these three?
Quote from: shine
There are other passages.
Indeed, there are. Though they may not be as clear cut as many seem to believe that they are.
Quote from: shine
As for the comment, there will be very few in heaven... Naw... Rev. 7: 9 speaks of a number so great nobody can count it. "a great mulitude which no man could number of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues stood before the throne....
Exactly. And how do you reconcile that with the "few" who are said to find the path that leads to life?
Quote from: shine
Hope to see ya there!
Do you "hope" to see ALL MEN for whom Christ died there?
Quote from: shine
I don't have alot of time to play on the net, so I did the best I could with this..
Thanks again to all who shared their thoughts.
shine
I've been pretty busy myself lately, but will try to check back for a response as I get time. Have a great night!
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 12, 2009, 01:50:57 AM
Quote from: WW
James,
I agree. It's just that I've seen terms mixed up at some places. Even seen something like the universe itself is a god. Or something similar.
White Wings,
Well, God is a very BIG GOD - so is it such a stretch to think that He who Created ALL things IS the UNIVERSE - God is ALL in ALL.
Anne,
I'm not gonna argue about that because I agree. But 'they' don't see it a being. A God. Neither is has their god a son.
willieH: Hi Shine... :cloud9:
Though this answer might seem a bit harsh... I mean you no harm by it. Please don't be offended, but instead, hopefully LEARN a few new things... :friendstu: :idea2: :teaching:
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 11:08:19 AMA few thoughts: I think the son of predition is Satan who along with the fallen angels have already been sentenced to perish. Predition means, 'to perish'. Jude speaks of these as 'twice dead' plucked up by the roots.
FIRST -- Sorry new brother, but "
fallen angels" are a fallacy as taught by Traditional Chrisitianity, and cannot be proven in the
WORD... and nothing is sentenced to perish (on an "eternal" basis, on the CONTRARY -- GOD is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish and SALVATION is UP TO HIM! For it is EXCLUSIVELY -- His WORK --
Eph 2:8-9 -- Heb 2:9 -- Heb 12:2)
SECOND -- As far as the statement in Jude... ALL men suffer 2 deaths
(1st) -- the SPIRITUAL via initial sin (for ADAM was told that --
in THE DAY He ate of the TREE that he would ...
DIE --
Gen 2:17)
(2nd) -- the PHYSICAL as a result of the accumulated Sin in ones lifetime in the physical.
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 11:08:19 AMAs for ET. I don't believe anyone is burning like a piece of bacon.
Amen -- NO ONE ever
has, NO ONE
is, and NO ONE ever
"will"! :boogie:
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 11:08:19 AMHowever I believe there is a place where unbelievers are kept and are divided by a great gulf. These can see what the 'could' have had...heaven.
More "traditional" thinking... the "great gulf" is the division between FAITH and Blindness to it... Though they stand FACE to FACE, ...there is a "great gulf" (separation) between the Heart of a BELIEVER and an ATHEIST. :dontknow:
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 11:08:19 AMThe water the rich man asked for is Christ. The tormenting flames are flames of shame, much greater than any fleshy burning. Plus, flesh is not found in the next realm and ya can't burn spirits or spiritual bodies.
Let's get to the point --
You are obviously talking about the PARABLE in
Luke 16:19-31 -- this PARABLE is speaking about FAITH.
The
JEWS are one portion of it as UNBELIEVERS and are noted by the term "
RICH MAN", and the others
[GENTILES] are noted by the term "
LAZERUS".
There are several things which Traditional Christianity ASSUMES about this PARABLE (in its CARNAL portrayal of this PARABLE as a picture of HELL) which are NOT mentioned:
(1)
YHVH God nor
CHRIST, is mentioned in this Parable,
(2) Heaven is not mentioned in this Parable,
(3) The Rich man is not noted as having bad behavior and did NOTHING to Lazerus, matter of fact, all he is "guilty of" (if one can honestly call it guilt) is that he just was RICH -- (for that matter, Abraham in his life was "
RICH")... :dontknow:
(4) "Lazerus" is not noted as doing any GOOD or evil, in the PARABLE, was just the recipient of poverty conditions during his life.
More things Christianity ASSUMES:
(1) Abraham's bosom is "Heaven", however his bosom is FAITH -- not Heaven
(2) Abraham, a SINNER is not able to "have mercy" upon anyone for deeds done on earth... for he is in need of Salvation not the giver of its MERCY.
Some things Christianity DOES NOT SEE:
(1) The "gehenna"/"hell" FLAME[assumed to be] depicted, is of the TONGUE which delivers CONDEMNATION to the WORLD (that GOD so LOVES), THEIR distorted message (see
James 3:6-11)
(2) The Parable closes with Abraham's observation of the JEWS -- "if THEY hear not Moses, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the DEAD"
(3) The proximity of their positions was the SAME, even though there was a separation -- "great gulf"
Now I ask you, WHO do you think is the (rich man) Abraham addresses, now?
(1) Who was RICH? -- The JEWS for they were given the ORACLES and WORD of GOD
(2) Who did not listen? -- The JEWS -- and they STILL do not HEAR
(3) Who was not persuaded by one RISEN from the dead? The JEWS, and they are STILL not persuaded of the Risen Savior.
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 11:08:19 AM2 Esdras in the apocrpha is a good read, ch. 7
Sorry new brother, I for one am not interested in EXTRA BIBLICAL writings. I do not condemn anyone for reading THEM, any more than I condemn someone reading a Stephen King novel... which is, to the same degree as any other book outside the
WORD -- Concerning the DIVINE --
UNINSPIRED.
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 11:08:19 AMI think those who reject the Lord will be 'turned to ashes from within'....or made nothingless/blotted out.
:omg: Upon what BIBLICAL passages, do you base THIS CONCLUSION? :dunno: :Chinscratch:
Seems YOU have INCLUDED YOURSELF, with the ones that get a "good result" eh? How convenient for you... :pitiful:
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 11:08:19 AMTherefore there shall be nothing or nobody to be sad about.
Nobody who does not love the Lord will be in eternity, thank goodness, else we'd have this same mess all over again.
FIRST -- Hmmm... that is a pretty INDIFFERENT attitude! Do you think that YOU "love the Lord" of your own doing, Shine?
SECOND -- And do YOU take credit for "loving" Him?
THIRD -- If God is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (completely and perfectly IMPARTIAL - as 10 verses note
---> Acts 10:34 -- Job 34:19 -- 2 Sam 14:14 - Rom 2:11 -- Mk 12:14 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- 2 Chron 19:7 --- Prov 28:21 -- Col 3:25)... Why would He "TURN" one to ASHES (anyone but YOU) and to another (YOU), give ETERNAL life? Seems pretty VERY PARTIAL to me... :thumbdown:
Quote from: shine on November 11, 2009, 11:08:19 AMHE is the love of my life and HIS touch is compared to warm honey within. I look for HIS appearing everyday as HE prepares me to stand in the evil day. HE is reality, not religion.
That is nice Shine... but where is your BURDEN for others?
God IS NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, Shine! --
2 Pet 3:9 -- and He is WORKING ALL THINGS, ...according to HIS WILL --
Eph 1:11 -- so...
How could you possibly think He will
NOT -- "get His way" :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
The Teaching of the Parable
Shine.
THE TEACHING OF THE PARABLE
But what does the parable teach? That the Jewish nation, and especially the Scribes and Pharisees were about to die as a power, as a church, as a controlling influence in the world; while the common people among them and the Gentiles outside of them were to be exalted in the new order of things. The details of the parable show this: "There was a certain rich man clothed in purple and fine linen." In these first words, by describing their very costume, the Savior fixed the attention of his hearers on the Jewish priesthood. They were emphatically the rich men of that nation. His description of the beggar was equally graphic. He lay at the gate of the rich, only asking to be fed by the crumbs that fell from the table. Thus dependent were the common people, and the Gentiles on the Scribes and Pharisees. We remember how Christ once rebuked them for shutting up the kingdom of heaven against these. They lay at the gate of the Jewish hierarchy. For the Gentiles were literally restricted to the outer court of the temple. Hence in Rev. 11: 12 we read: "But the court, which is without the temple, leave out, and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles." They could only walk the outer court, or lie at the gate. We remember the anger of the Jews at Paul, for allowing Greeks to enter the temple. This is the significance of the language of the Canaanitish woman, Matt. 15: 27, who desired the Savior to heal her daughter. The Savior, to try her faith, said: It is not meet to cast the children's bread to the dogs." She replied, "Truth, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their Mater's table." The prophet (Isa. 1: 6) represents the common people of Israel as "full of wounds, bruises, and putrifying sores." The brief, graphic descriptions given by the Savior, at once showed his hearers that he was describing those two classes, the Jewish priesthood and nation on the one hand and the common people, Jews and Gentiles, on the other.
The rich man died and was buried. This class died officially, nationally and its power departed. The kingdom of God was taken from them and conferred on others. The beggar died. The Gentiles, publicans and sinners were translated into the kingdom of God's dear son where is neither Jew nor Greek, but where all are one in Christ Jesus. This is the meaning of the expression "Abraham's bosom." They accepted the true faith and so became one with faithful Abraham. Abraham is called the father of the faithful, and the beggar is represented to have gone to Abraham's bosom, to denote the fact which is now history, that the common people and Gentiles would accept Christianity and become Christian nations, enjoying the blessing of the Christian faith.
Hey Lee,
I wrote something similar to this (but it is not on the net yet) but it does need a lot more work. Anyway here it is:
This parable is told in the way that it is, that being in the likeness of Greek mythology because Greek mythology is what the Pharisees had incorporated into their own belief.
They were lovers of money. [This may or may not be relevant: The Greek god Hades was the also the god of wealth.]
Their true riches where however that they had been entrusted with the oracles of God. They however would not believe in what they had been entrusted with. They represented therefore the old way that was "ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: {Israel of the time or apostate Israel}
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, {the Gentiles}
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; {the transition of the covenants, see 2 Cor. 5:14}
Luk 16:23 And in hell {Hades of course} he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. {See Matt. 8:11}
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
{the distress of apostate Israel seeing the their blessings being bestowed upon the Gentiles}
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. {the movement from law to grace as manifested in the "coming to nothing" of the princes of that covenant world}
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. {The hardening of Israel, see also Rev. 22:11}
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Mine was just a copy of The Bible Hell by J.W. Hanson page36
can be found on the scholar's corner at tentmaker
Lee
willieH: Hi Lee... :hithere:
Good summary -- :grin: -- interestingly enough, I did not come upon my conclusions about the PARABLE, from reading this summary on Tentmaker:
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 12, 2009, 03:17:49 PM
The Teaching of the Parable
Shine.
THE TEACHING OF THE PARABLE
But what does the parable teach? That the Jewish nation, and especially the Scribes and Pharisees were about to die as a power, as a church, as a controlling influence in the world; while the common people among them and the Gentiles outside of them were to be exalted in the new order of things. The details of the parable show this: "There was a certain rich man clothed in purple and fine linen." In these first words, by describing their very costume, the Savior fixed the attention of his hearers on the Jewish priesthood. They were emphatically the rich men of that nation. His description of the beggar was equally graphic. He lay at the gate of the rich, only asking to be fed by the crumbs that fell from the table. Thus dependent were the common people, and the Gentiles on the Scribes and Pharisees. We remember how Christ once rebuked them for shutting up the kingdom of heaven against these. They lay at the gate of the Jewish hierarchy. For the Gentiles were literally restricted to the outer court of the temple. Hence in Rev. 11: 12 we read: "But the court, which is without the temple, leave out, and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles." They could only walk the outer court, or lie at the gate. We remember the anger of the Jews at Paul, for allowing Greeks to enter the temple. This is the significance of the language of the Canaanitish woman, Matt. 15: 27, who desired the Savior to heal her daughter. The Savior, to try her faith, said: It is not meet to cast the children's bread to the dogs." She replied, "Truth, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their Mater's table." The prophet (Isa. 1: 6) represents the common people of Israel as "full of wounds, bruises, and putrifying sores." The brief, graphic descriptions given by the Savior, at once showed his hearers that he was describing those two classes, the Jewish priesthood and nation on the one hand and the common people, Jews and Gentiles, on the other.
The rich man died and was buried. This class died officially, nationally and its power departed. The kingdom of God was taken from them and conferred on others. The beggar died. The Gentiles, publicans and sinners were translated into the kingdom of God's dear son where is neither Jew nor Greek, but where all are one in Christ Jesus. This is the meaning of the expression "Abraham's bosom." They accepted the true faith and so became one with faithful Abraham. Abraham is called the father of the faithful, and the beggar is represented to have gone to Abraham's bosom, to denote the fact which is now history, that the common people and Gentiles would accept Christianity and become Christian nations, enjoying the blessing of the Christian faith.
I agree with this presentation. The PARABLE as I said in my answer to Shine is about FAITH... and in summary, this "summary" concludes that.
FAITH is authored by
CHRIST alone... so the ability to view TRUTH and invest ones hope in the
WORD, is availed by the WILL of
YHVH and His
WORD alone.
Just as you and I did not decide to be born here, nor did we decide any of the other surrounding parameters (era born in, family, country, race, gender, etc.), so is LIFE decided upon in the ETERNAL AGENDA, solely and completely by GOD.
As I also noted, GOD is NO RESPECTER of persons -- PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL... so this transition from UNBELIEF -- (to which GOD has CONCLUDED
ALL MEN --
Rom 11:32) -- to FAITH --
Heb 12:2 -- is HIS WORK ALONE, which is solely decided by Him according to HIS AGENDA and WILL --
Eph 1:11 -- for ALL.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
One of the many interesting things about this parable is that while both 'men' died only the rich man (who found himself "afar off" and "in hades") was said to be buried... while Lazarus was carried by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. This is something that even I overlooked for some time (even after coming to see it as a parable that doesn't have anything to do with physical death) in order to continue to insist that "hades = the grave" (seeing it only after a natural application, all the while insisting that the parable was to be understood spiritually :mblush:). Makes you come to grips with the fact that while your eyes may be opened to some truth that doesn't mean that you can suddenly see "all truth"; that God, in many ways, opens our eyes to light gradually, rather than all at once and even though we may suddenly feel "very enlightened" (standing in complete awe of that which we can see) we may still be looking through the glass darkly, with many layers of the onion yet to be peeled away, so to speak. :thumbsup: And while we may not be very patient with God, He is truly patient with us. :declare: And by His patience we learn to be patient, as well, and to trust in Him... even learning how to hear His voice ... as we go through times of feast as well as famine. :mshock:
good posting sis Chris :thumbsup:
waiting on the Lord :icon_flower:
:HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi Chris -- :hithere:
:goodpost:
Quote from: Chris on November 13, 2009, 01:54:33 AM
One of the many interesting things about this parable is that while both 'men' died only the rich man (who found himself "afar off" and "in hades") was said to be buried... while Lazarus was carried by the angels into the bosom of Abraham.
Very
PERTINENT observation, Chris... :iagree:
The DEATH of these 2 [figurative] men displays that
(1) the OLD COVENANT [LAW - literal - which brought the CONDEMNATION of DEATH] was being "
buried" and,
(2) the NEW COVENANT [GRACE - spiritual - which brings the JUSTIFICATION of LIFE] was put "in place" of it...
Quote from: Chris on November 13, 2009, 01:54:33 AMThis is something that even I overlooked for some time (even after coming to see it as a parable that doesn't have anything to do with physical death) in order to continue to insist that "hades = the grave" (seeing it only after a natural application, all the while insisting that the parable was to be understood spiritually :mblush:). Makes you come to grips with the fact that while your eyes may be opened to some truth that doesn't mean that you can suddenly see "all truth"; that God, in many ways, opens our eyes to light gradually, rather than all at once and even though we may suddenly feel "very enlightened" (standing in complete awe of that which we can see) we may still be looking through the glass darkly, with many layers of the onion yet to be peeled away, so to speak. :thumbsup: And while we may not be very patient with God, He is truly patient with us. :declare: And by His patience we learn to be patient, as well, and to trust in Him... even learning how to hear His voice ... as we go through times of feast as well as famine. :mshock:
More insightful words... :iagree:
We are ALL upon the "learning curve"... and at God's leading and choosing, do we discover in our searching, HIS TRUTH...
This fact is one of the GREATEST of ALL (that we always have things to learn), for NEW
TREASURE is ALWAYS on our horizon!!! :thumbsup:
...willieH :cloud9:
:cloud9: Amen to that Willie....... :thumbsup: seeking His treasure every day. Blessings...
Quote from: rosered on November 13, 2009, 01:59:20 AM
good posting sis Chris :thumbsup:
waiting on the Lord :icon_flower:
:HeartThrob:
waiting and waiting and waiting, sometimes. :laughing7: :girlheart:
Quote from: willieH on November 14, 2009, 10:20:03 PM
willieH: Hi Chris -- :hithere:
:goodpost:
Quote from: Chris on November 13, 2009, 01:54:33 AM
One of the many interesting things about this parable is that while both 'men' died only the rich man (who found himself "afar off" and "in hades") was said to be buried... while Lazarus was carried by the angels into the bosom of Abraham.
Very PERTINENT observation, Chris... :iagree:
The DEATH of these 2 [figurative] men displays that
(1) the OLD COVENANT [LAW - literal - which brought the CONDEMNATION of DEATH] was being "buried" and,
(2) the NEW COVENANT [GRACE - spiritual - which brings the JUSTIFICATION of LIFE] was put "in place" of it...
Quote from: Chris on November 13, 2009, 01:54:33 AMThis is something that even I overlooked for some time (even after coming to see it as a parable that doesn't have anything to do with physical death) in order to continue to insist that "hades = the grave" (seeing it only after a natural application, all the while insisting that the parable was to be understood spiritually :mblush:). Makes you come to grips with the fact that while your eyes may be opened to some truth that doesn't mean that you can suddenly see "all truth"; that God, in many ways, opens our eyes to light gradually, rather than all at once and even though we may suddenly feel "very enlightened" (standing in complete awe of that which we can see) we may still be looking through the glass darkly, with many layers of the onion yet to be peeled away, so to speak. :thumbsup: And while we may not be very patient with God, He is truly patient with us. :declare: And by His patience we learn to be patient, as well, and to trust in Him... even learning how to hear His voice ... as we go through times of feast as well as famine. :mshock:
More insightful words... :iagree:
We are ALL upon the "learning curve"... and at God's leading and choosing, do we discover in our searching, HIS TRUTH...
This fact is one of the GREATEST of ALL (that we always have things to learn), for NEW TREASURE is ALWAYS on our horizon!!! :thumbsup:
...willieH :cloud9:
HI Willie!
And what AMAZING and PRICELESS treasures He has waiting for us there. :thumbsup:
I will try to answer a few comments.
Where did I get the meaning of 'Israel' ?
(a prince that prevails' Smith's Bible Dict.
All that do not neglect so great a salvation is Israel (Heb 2:3)
I stand firm on Satan and the ungodly shall perish, cuz that's how I see it written.
(2 Peter 3:7, Heb. 10:39 etc...)
I do not glory in that, neither does My Father.
The real Lord's prayer is recorded in John 17. Jesus said in v.12 ...'those that you have given me I have kept and none of them are LOST but the SON OF PERDITION.
I looked up (Strongs #622 LOST means distroy fully, perish. #623 "Satan, apollyon
PERDITION is #684 is from 622 ruined physically, spiritually, eternally"
Each one must study for ourselves and check out any man's words, including mine.
I don't know much, but I KNOW HIM in part. I trust HE will show me.
Looking forward to Christmas. The conception of My Lord.
Thanks for allowing me space here....
shine
Quote from: shine on November 29, 2009, 01:32:16 PMI looked up (Strongs #622 LOST means distroy fully, perish.
Shine, I think you should look an little deeper in the meaning of 'apollumi'
As the verse below show for example the coin was not destroyed. It never was; otherwise it couldn't have been found.
Luke 15:9 "And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!'
Luke 15:6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
The complete meaning of the word according to Strong:
622 avpo,llumi apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
Meaning: 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose
Origin: from 575 and the base of 3639; TDNT - 1:394,67; v
Usage: AV - perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92
As Strongs show the origin of G622 is G575
575 avpo, apo {apo'}
Meaning: 1) of separation 1a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ... 1b) of separation of a part from the whole 1b1) where of a whole some part is taken 1c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed 1d) of a state of separation, that is of distance 1d1) physical, of distance of place 1d2) temporal, of distance of time 2) of origin 2a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken 2b) of origin of a cause
Origin: a primary particle;; preposition
Usage: AV - from 392, of 129, out of 48, for 10, off 10, by 9, at 9, in 6, since + 3739 5, on 5, not tr. 15, misc. 31; 669
...none of them is lost but the son [uihos] of perdition [apōleia]...
[the son of] "perdition"
G684
ἀπώλεια
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
...that the scripture might be fulfilled.
What scripture?
8May his days be few;
may another take his office!
--Psa 109 [Acts 1:20]
"'May his camp become desolate,
and let there be no one to dwell in it';
--Psa 69 [Acts 1:20]
18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.'
--John 13
9Even my close friend in whom I trusted,
who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
--Psa 14
:cloud9: Sounds like Judas......or Satan in Judas........
Quote from: Cardinal on November 29, 2009, 06:39:38 PM
:cloud9: Sounds like Judas......or Satan in Judas........
Bingo!
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.--Luke 22
Check this once more time with corrections
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 10, 2009, 11:58:05 PM
Shine, I will try to say what "I" mean.
I do not know what to call my self, I have beliefs not held by
the many.
I believe:
:HeartThrob::- that all things (atoms) man woman and things, and space in between atoms will be brought back to God in some eon and then beyond.(when time-eon-ends or out side of time)
:HeartThrob:- that IN the Anointed (Christ), all the above will be joined in union with Father( and this IS done already )
- after JC killed Death 2009 years ago( placed it in the lake of fire), that was the start of all eternal life, immortality, in God's Graced eon peoples, AND All will live forever.
- All will feel His Drawing/Dragging
- the day of His appearing/second coming has started 2009 years ago and last until All are restored
- I believe that when you become aware of Him and His Drawings, there is no sin in this life when you come to the understanding thatGrace, (Matt Not the 16:17 revealed-the alleged rock lie, 'grace, the divine influence upon the human heart and it's influence in Life, your life) then we are under a law of the new life IN Christ and not under law-death-sin or the tree of Knowledge of good and evil...
This will be enough to get others telling you what is and ain't UR. This IS only my opinion...
[/list][/list]
Lee Damboise II
Thanks ALL for taking time to reply.
shine
Speaking of Judas... I dunno.... It's written he repented, so I can't see right now.. how he'd be the SOP??
Something else I've wondered about, there are two accounts of his death.
1. He hanged himself.
2. He was cut open really bad.
Perhaps he had some help, or maybe I've watched to much Matlock on TV.. LOL
Or he hung himself and somehow fell on the rocks afterwards.
Maybe the rope broke or got loose? Or the branch of the tree broke of.
It could be a seen a contradiction but it just aswell can be something similar to what I wrote above. But I think it will never get beyond the point of speculation because very little info is given.