the rest of 1Tim 4

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I am talking about any Jewish temple you go in to today and worship in 2009 I guess that is plain enough.

[Seth]

You are still thinking outwardly.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

still would like an answer if you follow all 640 Law set forth for Israel of old.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

so whats the issue of that end of the scale being talked about.

[Seth]

still would like an answer if you follow all 640 Law set forth for Israel of old.

I'll answer you when you when you answer me: Do you mean a Jew according to the flesh, or that which is circumcised in the heart by the Spirit?

And, Do you agree with Romans 2:28-29 or not?

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Yes I agree with Rom's, but there is still an issue of who was Paul telling a story about at that moment in Rom.  for one.

and I was talking about in the flesh/carnally discerned but I can speak Spiritually too.  I just want to know if you follow all the Laws of old testement and the law of the new Life in Christ Too????

[HartleyDamboiseII]

What parts of the "Word" do you magnify in your brain, "retain"


Rom 2:1  Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2  But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3  And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:( Who are these People???) and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 2:17  Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18  And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19  And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20  An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21  Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22  Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23  Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24  For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25  For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26  Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27  And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now I do see that non Jews can be of the house of God as the last verse says , but the question is, do you follow the Jewish Laws all 640 of them??

[rosered]

Yes I agree with Rom's, but there is still an issue of who was Paul telling a story about at that moment in Rom.  for one.

and I was talking about in the flesh/carnally discerned but I can speak Spiritually too.  I just want to know if you follow all the Laws of old testement and the law of the new Life in Christ Too????

  Hi Lee ,
 I do not boil a kid in its mothers milk

 that was one of them laws of moses
 we are getting off  topic  :mshock:

 But  there are two  ways of seeing things one is literal  
the other is spiritual, and when we mix up the two we get confusion ...

 one Law by the carnal nature , it kills  

 the Spirital Law gives  life
  that is what we are trying to   distinsuish   between here  

Seth is speaking of the natural man   / Jew  and spiritual man / Jew  and how the laws apply   rightly dividing the   WORD of Truth .......

 this Nation  / Jew was chosen first   by the LORD  than all other nations /gentiles   were  given equal opportunity employment


The original Greek word is:  Or in Modern-Greek:  Ergon.[16]

(Strong's number: 2041. G/K: 2240)



Ever since Jesus ascended, we are able to perform greater works then He did! – Jn. 5:20
Works bear witness and validate Jesus' claim of relationship with God the Father – Jn. 5:36, Jn. 10:25, Jn. 14:11
We must believe in Jesus to do the work of God – Jn. 6:29
If we believe in Jesus we will do the works that He did! – Jn.14:12
Works caused people to believe Jesus – Jn. 10:38
Lexicon definition:


The Enhanced Strong's Lexicon defines this word as: "1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied. 1A) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking. 2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind. 3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work."  This easily translates into our English word 'work,' but is there a deeper meaning to this Greek word? Most of the time, ergon simply means work, just the same as our English word. There are some occurrences that are slightly different however. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament tells us that this word was very common in the time of Homer and Hesiod. It seems in their time ergon had a meaning that portrayed active action and zeal instead of just labor or occupation, as we in the 21st century might perceive 'work'. It also meant 'useful activity' opposed to useless busyness or idleness.[17] Ergon is: work for a purpose, for life itself. It emphasizes actively working in expectation of return. For example, a farmer planting crop in expectation of receiving a harvest in season, would be ergon/work. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament tells us that this Greek word originated from a Hebrew word often times meaning: 'to plow'.[18]


  :HeartThrob:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Are you going to still say that Rom. 2 is written to Gentiles today and he is "not talking to Jews of that day".

[Molly]

Now I do see that non Jews can be of the house of God as the last verse says , but the question is, do you follow the Jewish Laws all 640 of them??

Weren't those nailed to the cross?


Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I am still waiting for Seth's reply before I go on to new issues.

But to answer/and not looking for more questions, Yes for this Gentile.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I know many many people today that find it absolutely necessary to follow all laws (640 plus their own penned laws), Baptist is one example of what I call the unenlightened followers of Moses' Laws.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Every Human has the right to believe what his mind tells them. I just want to know if Seth is a follower of both old and new testament, old law and new law.

[Seth]

Yes I agree with Rom's, but there is still an issue of who was Paul telling a story about at that moment in Rom.  for one.

and I was talking about in the flesh/carnally discerned but I can speak Spiritually too.  I just want to know if you follow all the Laws of old testement and the law of the new Life in Christ Too????

If you were talking about the flesh carnally discerned, I don't apply such reasoning, which is why you asked "I am talking about any Jewish temple you go in to today and worship in 2009 I guess that is plain enough." My first thought was,

I AM the temple of God, so I don't have to go anywhere.

Your question is "do you follow the Jewish Laws all 640 of them?" My answer is "Do I make null the law by faith, no I establish law." (Romans 3:31)

Meaning in the walk of salvation, if by nature I fulfill the righteousness of the law, then I am showing the law to be written in my heart, therefore becoming a law unto myself.

In other words, not a letter follower, a law fulfiller. And the righteousness of the Law (Romans 8) is fulfilled by love.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Thank you, that was a very good answer and all worthy of acceptance in His site.

[Seth]

Thank you, Lee. Agree or disagree, I am glad that we came to a better understanding between us.

[natcat86]

:hijacked:   Only kidding! :laughing7:

I have some Jewish friends at uni who are self confessed "cultural Jews" they are Zionists and more geographical/racial Isrealies than Jews if the word Jew means the same as Christian, muslim, sikh (a follower of a religion).

I asked one of them if they thought of themselves as one of Abrahams children and they said that its more of a religious belief than cultural. I told them I did and they thought that was funny!!

But I thought that to be a Jew in the religious sense you had to be one of Abrahams children and that is people from all over the world, from every nation.

Seth I totally get what you mean by Jesus being Isreal and marrying Isreal, one flesh and all that.

Lee no one can follow the law, thats why Jesus came.


I always get perplexed when people start to get shirty when they disagree seeing as if any one does know the truth thats because God revealed it to them. If someone doesn't and you do, its not because you are smarter its because God has chosen not to reveal it to them yet. So if you are frustrated at someones lack of agreement with you or lack of knowledge then you are frustrated with God becuase if you are genuinly searching for answers with the right heart then its Gods job to dish out the knowledge not ours. We can express our opinions but there is no need for tones and negative emotions.

[Seth]

"Shirty" that's an interesting one. I never heard that before.  I like it. :laughing7:

[natcat86]

Yep shirty, another good word is mardy or noughty.   :icon_jokercolor:

[Seth]

lol....British I suspect?

[natcat86]

Yep! :icon_queen:

[WhiteWings]

You live in one of the 10 commandments :laughing7:

[natcat86]

 :dunno: I dont get it! Hope its not a dig at our very usefu,l and in no way just a figure head, Queen!!  :tease:

[CHB]

James is % 100 percent written to followers of Law, and not to be taken for a Gentile as rules, just understanding of how God delt with His people, "then" and not to todays gentiles.

Rev. is not to us either unless your a born Jew. the whole book is written to a people and at the time it was never intended as a book for Gentiles, it is % 100 percent a book to reveal The Christ in Creation...The whole book. IMO

Lee,

I agree 100% with your post also.  Seth, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I know it is hard to see this Mystery for what it is, because it is still hidden among the epistles of paul.  

CHB

[Seth]

I do believe I see the Mystery for what it is. I have actually been harmonizing it across all Paul's epistles and those of his brother apostles. But I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

Blessings  :icon_king: