So, WHY Exactly Is Abortion SO Wrong?? The Absurdity of ET and Annihilation

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I personally think God made the determination on when "it's" a child by saying, "I formed you in your mother's womb." Blessings....

[peacemaker]

(http://dl7.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1466/1466797nnvj39znqt.gif)

[Tim B]

Shadow,

My heart goes out to you.   :HeartThrob: I'm glad you exist.  Does that count?  I know exactly how you feel.  Fortunately, I don't feel that level of sadness all the time.    Have you ever listened to any of Ekhart Tolle's audio teachings called "The Power of Now"?  I ask because he goes deeply into how our minds, unable to rest, can cause so much needless suffering.  I think that is very true and even Jesus spoke of the need to bring our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.    I "get" that you don't want to be forced to fight the good fight of faith -- even the scriptures says that we were subjected UNWILLINGLY to futility/mortality, which I find comforting  -- that the scriptures at least admit that we are here suffering against our will. 

Well, I hope I have not said anything to make you feel worse.   I hope you are filled with joy a.s.a.p.

Anne

Thanks for your post, Anne, it has made me feel better

I will try those teachings of Eckart Tolle, I just get so disillusioned by the so called "good news" gospel of the fundamentalists and their mindset is so depressing  :dontknow: , their only hope is for themselves

I also hope I can be filled with joy, it's an emotion I'm not familiar with

My main problem is that I am unable to see the all loving God that many on here seem to know :mshock:

I know the feeling. I have trouble, often times, even reading the Gospels, and/or the Bible without feeling condemned. It's pretty ridiculous. I'm getting to the point that I'm really starting to believe this: UNLESS God is SO in CONTROL and SO LOVING that I can literally not worry about ANYTHING, or about ANYTHING concerning the fate of myself or others, THEN, and ONLY THEN, can I rest. So that's what I've been focusing on: LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. Without that, I believe we're all truly screwed anyway. lol

For me, it's now: ALL (God is LOVE and will reconcile ALL) or NOTHING (atheism is true). I can't go back to Christian orthodoxy, and UR seems to make the ONLY sense. That or everything is meaningless anyway, so it doesn't matter what happens. (But I don't really tend to believe this. I find God in too many things, like beauty and nature, to really say he doesn't exist.)

[Zeek]

Shadow,

My heart goes out to you.   :HeartThrob: I'm glad you exist.  Does that count?  I know exactly how you feel.  Fortunately, I don't feel that level of sadness all the time.    Have you ever listened to any of Ekhart Tolle's audio teachings called "The Power of Now"?  I ask because he goes deeply into how our minds, unable to rest, can cause so much needless suffering.  I think that is very true and even Jesus spoke of the need to bring our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.    I "get" that you don't want to be forced to fight the good fight of faith -- even the scriptures says that we were subjected UNWILLINGLY to futility/mortality, which I find comforting  -- that the scriptures at least admit that we are here suffering against our will. 

Well, I hope I have not said anything to make you feel worse.   I hope you are filled with joy a.s.a.p.

Anne

Thanks for your post, Anne, it has made me feel better

I will try those teachings of Eckart Tolle, I just get so disillusioned by the so called "good news" gospel of the fundamentalists and their mindset is so depressing  :dontknow: , their only hope is for themselves

I also hope I can be filled with joy, it's an emotion I'm not familiar with

My main problem is that I am unable to see the all loving God that many on here seem to know :mshock:

I know the feeling. I have trouble, often times, even reading the Gospels, and/or the Bible without feeling condemned. It's pretty ridiculous. I'm getting to the point that I'm really starting to believe this: UNLESS God is SO in CONTROL and SO LOVING that I can literally not worry about ANYTHING, or about ANYTHING concerning the fate of myself or others, THEN, and ONLY THEN, can I rest. So that's what I've been focusing on: LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. Without that, I believe we're all truly screwed anyway. lol

For me, it's now: ALL (God is LOVE and will reconcile ALL) or NOTHING (atheism is true). I can't go back to Christian orthodoxy, and UR seems to make the ONLY sense. That or everything is meaningless anyway, so it doesn't matter what happens. (But I don't really tend to believe this. I find God in too many things, like beauty and nature, to really say he doesn't exist.)

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

[Tim B]

Shadow,

My heart goes out to you.   :HeartThrob: I'm glad you exist.  Does that count?  I know exactly how you feel.  Fortunately, I don't feel that level of sadness all the time.    Have you ever listened to any of Ekhart Tolle's audio teachings called "The Power of Now"?  I ask because he goes deeply into how our minds, unable to rest, can cause so much needless suffering.  I think that is very true and even Jesus spoke of the need to bring our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.    I "get" that you don't want to be forced to fight the good fight of faith -- even the scriptures says that we were subjected UNWILLINGLY to futility/mortality, which I find comforting  -- that the scriptures at least admit that we are here suffering against our will. 

Well, I hope I have not said anything to make you feel worse.   I hope you are filled with joy a.s.a.p.

Anne

Thanks for your post, Anne, it has made me feel better

I will try those teachings of Eckart Tolle, I just get so disillusioned by the so called "good news" gospel of the fundamentalists and their mindset is so depressing  :dontknow: , their only hope is for themselves

I also hope I can be filled with joy, it's an emotion I'm not familiar with

My main problem is that I am unable to see the all loving God that many on here seem to know :mshock:

I know the feeling. I have trouble, often times, even reading the Gospels, and/or the Bible without feeling condemned. It's pretty ridiculous. I'm getting to the point that I'm really starting to believe this: UNLESS God is SO in CONTROL and SO LOVING that I can literally not worry about ANYTHING, or about ANYTHING concerning the fate of myself or others, THEN, and ONLY THEN, can I rest. So that's what I've been focusing on: LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. Without that, I believe we're all truly screwed anyway. lol

For me, it's now: ALL (God is LOVE and will reconcile ALL) or NOTHING (atheism is true). I can't go back to Christian orthodoxy, and UR seems to make the ONLY sense. That or everything is meaningless anyway, so it doesn't matter what happens. (But I don't really tend to believe this. I find God in too many things, like beauty and nature, to really say he doesn't exist.)

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

Some people think that "literal" events could have been parables, I think. Maybe some of the stories in the Old Testament didn't actually happen. I don't know. I definitely see your point, I just don't feel like I have a good answer. Maybe it's not so much that God would have done such a thing SO that we can learn a "spiritual lesson," as it is we CAN learn a "spiritual lesson." That is God didn't do it SO, but as a consequence of these events, we can, naturally, learn from them.

I donno. One of those hard questions. I mean, we could ask: why did God allow any of this (pain, suffering, and evil) to exist? I don't really have an answer for that, but I do have a hope: He WILL rescue us from it. Otherwise, if we aren't ALL rescued, I really don't see any chance for an actual purpose to exist behind mankind's existence.

[Gab]

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

I'm probably going to get flak for this, but to be completely honest I actually have an immense amount of trouble in reading the Old Testament and trying to tell myself that the events described therein are completely historical events that all literally happened as described.  There are a lot of things that, to me, don't even internally make sense when taken literally, such as:

1. Jesus is supposed to be the unique historical incarnation of God on Earth, yet God is described as walking in the Garden of Eden as if he were human in Genesis 3:8.  He is additionally depicted as not being omniscient, as he asked Adam where he was (Genesis 3:9) and who deceived him (Genesis 3:11).  This continues even after Adam and Eve are evicted, when he asks Abel where his brother is (Genesis 4:9).  And then after that nothing is ever heard of this human-like incarnation of God.

2. When God decides to flood the Earth, he does so because humanity's wickedness was great (Genesis 6:5) and he regretted creating humanity (Genesis 6:6) - then, after the flood subsides, rather than cleansing humanity's wickedness, he accepts its existence (Genesis 8:21), making it seem as though God changed his mind.

3. God is described as a jealous God (Exodus 34:14), yet he is also described as love (1 John 4:8), and love is said not to be jealous (1 Corinthians 13:4).

There are others, but I think you get the idea.

This isn't to say that I think the Old Testament is false.  I just don't think that it's intended to provide us with a literal historical account from cover to cover.  Jesus was not exactly averse to using parables to get across his message, and I think the same is true here.  The message that we may take away from it is what is important, not the events described therein.

Would be interested to hear the view from one who does take it to be an entirely literal historical account, though.  This is one of the areas on which I have an ample amount of uncertainty.

[Tim B]

I totally get what you're saying, Gab. I think too, that often times, the Old Testament picture of God, seems to be written by people as they perceive God's actions. Plus, they didn't exactly have as many words as us. The Hebrews didn't have words such as "like" when talking about emotion. It wasn't such as our language where we can say, "I hate him; I like him; I love him." It was more of polar opposites, or hyperbole. But in either case, for somebody, in the Old Testament, to say that God "hates" somebody probably shouldn't be taken literally (especially, considering he is LOVE, so he can't possibly "hate" someone in our sense of vengeful hate). I think too, that the idea that God is "a jealous God", just means he desires, above all else, for us to desire HIM (perhaps, and if only, for OUR well being), as opposed to worshiping false images (which can be/is damaging to our well being). I'm not sure it can be taken as our general definition of jealousy. (Besides, is ALL jealousy truly wrong? I don't think so. A limited amount of jealousy can be a good thing.)

Also, I think when God asks questions, it's not that he doesn't actually know the answer, but he does it much like this: a father walks into his room and sees his child stealing candy from the cabinet, and asks, "What are you doing?" Not because he can't see what his child is doing, but because he desires to hear his child confess his actions.

[peacemaker]

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

[Zeek]

I totally get what you're saying, Gab. I think too, that often times, the Old Testament picture of God, seems to be written by people as they perceive God's actions. Plus, they didn't exactly have as many words as us. The Hebrews didn't have words such as "like" when talking about emotion. It wasn't such as our language where we can say, "I hate him; I like him; I love him." It was more of polar opposites, or hyperbole. But in either case, for somebody, in the Old Testament, to say that God "hates" somebody probably shouldn't be taken literally (especially, considering he is LOVE, so he can't possibly "hate" someone in our sense of vengeful hate). I think too, that the idea that God is "a jealous God", just means he desires, above all else, for us to desire HIM (perhaps, and if only, for OUR well being), as opposed to worshiping false images (which can be/is damaging to our well being). I'm not sure it can be taken as our general definition of jealousy. (Besides, is ALL jealousy truly wrong? I don't think so. A limited amount of jealousy can be a good thing.)

Also, I think when God asks questions, it's not that he doesn't actually know the answer, but he does it much like this: a father walks into his room and sees his child stealing candy from the cabinet, and asks, "What are you doing?" Not because he can't see what his child is doing, but because he desires to hear his child confess his actions.

and not only old testament, but what about 70 ad.  Literal pregnant women were cut open, babies pulled out and eaten; girls raped.  millions of people burned to death.  And this was the doings of God??  The wrath OF GOD.  

If the literal is the truth, it's sick.

If the spiritual is the truth, but made known from literal events; then it's still sick.

I don't get it.  



I'll just go with what u r saying, LOVE is it.  If I can't see it in the bible, then I'll go with my heart.  

[Zeek]

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

[Gab]

I totally get what you're saying, Gab. I think too, that often times, the Old Testament picture of God, seems to be written by people as they perceive God's actions. Plus, they didn't exactly have as many words as us. The Hebrews didn't have words such as "like" when talking about emotion. It wasn't such as our language where we can say, "I hate him; I like him; I love him." It was more of polar opposites, or hyperbole. But in either case, for somebody, in the Old Testament, to say that God "hates" somebody probably shouldn't be taken literally (especially, considering he is LOVE, so he can't possibly "hate" someone in our sense of vengeful hate). I think too, that the idea that God is "a jealous God", just means he desires, above all else, for us to desire HIM (perhaps, and if only, for OUR well being), as opposed to worshiping false images (which can be/is damaging to our well being). I'm not sure it can be taken as our general definition of jealousy. (Besides, is ALL jealousy truly wrong? I don't think so. A limited amount of jealousy can be a good thing.)

I know what you're saying there regarding jealousy, but I'm just pointing out what seems to be a complete contradiction in terms if one takes the statement in Exodus to be literally true: God is said to be jealous, yet he is also said to be love, and love is said in no uncertain terms not to be jealous, full stop.  The Greek word for "jealous" in the Septuagint is the same word as found in 1 Corinthians 13, too, so we can be reasonably sure that the two senses of jealousy are identical.

Also, I think when God asks questions, it's not that he doesn't actually know the answer, but he does it much like this: a father walks into his room and sees his child stealing candy from the cabinet, and asks, "What are you doing?" Not because he can't see what his child is doing, but because he desires to hear his child confess his actions.

Yeah, I've thought about that as well, but God doesn't just ask one question, but three: where he was, who told him he was naked, and whether or not he ate from the tree.  It seems a bit overboard if we are to take his questions as purely rhetorical in nature - rather, he seems to be depicted as genuinely curious.

At any rate, the stuff I listed was just what I saw as the internal contradictions if one takes it literally.  There are other things that are more along the lines of what Zeek is talking about that I have great difficulty reconciling, such as the killing of all the firstborn Egyptian children in punishment for something someone else did.  I just can't find a way to look at that as something that literally happened and yet find a way to maintain the stance that God is a loving God.  Maybe I'm missing something; I don't know.

[Tim B]

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

I think he does this for two reasons: to cause others to believe (such as God blinded the Jews to bring in the Gentiles) and so to cause the one who believes the lie to get so deep down in the trenches that it causes him to realize the truth.

Pauls says: God made the Jews stubborn to bring in the Gentiles, and once the fullness of the Gentiles were brought in, then the Jews would come back to God and ALL Israel would be saved. I think it's just a part of God's plan to save all mankind. Does it make sense, to me, for God to do it this way? Not in one sense, but it's better than him purposely damning certain human beings or not caring enough to save them.

[Zeek]

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

I think he does this for two reasons: to cause others to believe (such as God blinded the Jews to bring in the Gentiles) and so to cause the one who believes the lie to get so deep down in the trenches that it causes him to realize the truth.

Pauls says: God made the Jews stubborn to bring in the Gentiles, and once the fullness of the Gentiles were brought in, then the Jews would come back to God and ALL Israel would be saved. I think it's just a part of God's plan to save all mankind. Does it make sense, to me, for God to do it this way? Not in one sense, but it's better than him purposely damning certain human beings or not caring enough to save them.

i hear you, it's just that there were literal beautiful,wonderful people who were basically killed by god.  it wasn't just a hardening of the mind that bothers me, it's the literal massacre that follows.  it's just screwy thinking when i KNOW true love, all i have to do is look at my three kids.  I would never subject them to rape, torture, cutting, etc. in order to save them. 

[peacemaker]

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

Truly, many have implied, claiming to be a representative of the living Spirit. But all who preach (speaking or writing) are/were not doing it, explicitly for Him.

Indeed, many are blinded by the god of this world (i.e. man).

[Tim B]

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

I think he does this for two reasons: to cause others to believe (such as God blinded the Jews to bring in the Gentiles) and so to cause the one who believes the lie to get so deep down in the trenches that it causes him to realize the truth.

Pauls says: God made the Jews stubborn to bring in the Gentiles, and once the fullness of the Gentiles were brought in, then the Jews would come back to God and ALL Israel would be saved. I think it's just a part of God's plan to save all mankind. Does it make sense, to me, for God to do it this way? Not in one sense, but it's better than him purposely damning certain human beings or not caring enough to save them.

i hear you, it's just that there were literal beautiful,wonderful people who were basically killed by god.  it wasn't just a hardening of the mind that bothers me, it's the literal massacre that follows.  it's just screwy thinking when i KNOW true love, all i have to do is look at my three kids.  I would never subject them to rape, torture, cutting, etc. in order to save them. 

There's other theories out there, ya know, concerning God and the reasons for why certain people go through what they do in this life. Ever look into Origen's idea on the pre-existence of souls, and the transmigration of souls? It's probably not the answer (after all, what is?), but it's interesting at the very least.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.vi.v.iii.ix.html (note: I'm not sure if this has to with what is considered the "transmigration of souls" or not, but I think it might be. Either way: it does discuss the same topic as ours, basically, why certain people go through certain things, or why God has it happen).

And I also can see where you're coming from, btw. I'm not ignoring that. I don't have the answers. But I generally enjoy speculation.

[peacemaker]

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

Truly, many have implied, claiming to be a representative of the living Spirit. But all who preach (speaking or writing) are/were not doing it, explicitly for Him.

Indeed, many are blinded by the god of this world (i.e. man).

"Our level of understanding and comprehension is based on spiritual insight; apprehending the true nature of a thing."

peacemaker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: This has come up several times before, and personally I don't see why it is considered to be any less a God of love over the things of the OT, than the NT. Paul walked in love and he told some at one point to turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of their FLESH, that their spirit might be saved.

1Co 5:5 - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Our ways are not God's ways, His ways are much higher than our ways. So the first error IMO is to assume that His judgments to the flesh are the same as carnal man's murderous intents, for it says His judgments are unto victory, which the above scripture declares, for victory is in Christ, and it makes it plain that Christ is their destination.

The flesh is temporary and withers like grass anyway, so while it may APPEAR to be lack of caring and love, when I see in there the wicked perish, I see Him destroying flesh that profits a man nothing if it causes him to lose his own soul thru the gain of the worldly lusts, that the spirit might be saved.

When I see the innocent perish, I see a body thou hast prepared for Me, made conformable to His death, a sacrifice for their fellow man, a seed planted in love, blameless to the coming of the Lord.

That doesn't make it "right" or that the righteous among us should not try to stop the wickedness in the world by reproving it with righteousness, as in the case of abortions or whatever, only that some things will be outside of our ability to change them and that we are to take comfort in this hope.

So; if He was able to save them thru the destruction of wicked flesh, how much more and how many more hearts can He turn via breaking, thru the destruction of the innocent? The only equity to be found is not in this life, but in the life to come, where ALL bow the knee to the One who loved us before we loved Him, whether that happened in this life or the life to come.

Ask any of them then if it mattered which of the two circumstances they left this life and they will not reply that it did, for all the tears of the sorrows of this life have already been wiped away, because it be like it all happened to someone else, not them. And indeed, it did. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Zeek]

Our ways are not God's ways, His ways are much higher than our ways.

but we have the MIND OF CHRIST


but yet, I don't feel comfortable with raping, killing and destroying flesh; like apparently Paul did by turning one over to the adversary. 

do you??

[Zeek]

apparently love lays down it's life for another but also orchestrates murder, rape, beating, etc of another too, and calls it love; so that in the end it's "all good".

[claypot]

Our ways are not God's ways, His ways are much higher than our ways.

but we have the MIND OF CHRIST


but yet, I don't feel comfortable with raping, killing and destroying flesh; like apparently Paul did by turning one over to the adversary. 

do you??

I totally hear ya Zeek. I ask myself all the time why it takes creating something that tortures and rapes and does all sorts of unthinkably nasty things, why it takes this kind of creation to make something good. It is mind boggling to be sure.

Turning people over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Why make a creation that needs this type of curing? It seems insane on the creators part.

I find some understanding in the fact that God, for reasons really known only to Him, is really doing something totally mysterious to Himself. To Himself. We are, again in some mysterious way, His thoughts, His 'mind' at work.

Jesus Christ is the great 'What if?' of God. I had this thought the other day while driving home from work. Where it came from I have no clue and dismissed it right away as absurd but it stuck with me.

I had this strong feeling or whatever that God was entertaining thoughts about evil. He was, in effect thinking, 'What if I lost control?' 'What if I could succumb to evil?' 'What would it feel like?' 'What would need to happen to me if I let this happen?' 'I would need to die and come alive again.' 'I would need to be my own savior.' 'If I let such a dangerous and horrible thing happen, I would need to have a salvation and redemptive plan in place before I started anything else.' (Lamb of God, slain before the foundation of the world.)

These were my thoughts.

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And did you read these?

1Co 10:9 - Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who did they tempt in the wilderness before being destroyed of serpents? Was it the "evil" OT God? So do we have the mind of Christ in this, or no?

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What drew them away to bring about their death?

If you see a parent, set up boundaries such as telling their son not to drive drunk or he may die in a wreck, and he does it anyway and dies, do you then blame the parent who set up the boundary, or the child who ignored the boundary being led away of their own lust?

Or do you praise the parent for preparing things that they might inherit life eternal regardless of their bad decisions? God prepared the end ahead of time.

To me, assigning this false "nature" to God, is the same as Job's wife/soul saying to him, curse God and die, because of all the external circumstances he had to go thru to receive the double portion, for Job received double.

And as for a personal application, when my son was nearly brutally murdered with steel pipes he was beaten in the skull with and brain damaged, I saw the hand of God in it, because he was restored almost completely, though the doctors said he would be a vegetable if he lived, and most important of all, within two weeks of his release from the hospital he received the Lord and was actually praying for his attackers, and telling EVERYONE he met that God had saved him and healed him.

As for me, I had it made LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, TRULY the Lord meant it for good. Blessings....

[Zeek]

:cloud9: And did you read these?

1Co 10:9 - Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who did they tempt in the wilderness before being destroyed of serpents? Was it the "evil" OT God? So do we have the mind of Christ in this, or no?

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What drew them away to bring about their death?

If you as a parent, set up boundaries such as telling your son not to drive drunk or he may die in a wreck, and he does it anyway and dies, do you blame the parent who set up the boundary, or the child who ignored the boundary being led away of their own lust?

Or do you praise the parent for preparing things that they might inherit life eternal regardless of their bad decisions? God prepared the end ahead of time. Blessings....

but these bad decisions are because of God are they not??  God hardened, Jesus spoke in parable so they wouldn't perceive the truth and be converted, God sent strong delusion so they would believe a lie.  God made two vessels.   Doesn't sound like a boundary there??? 

 

[Zeek]

See, here is my thinking.  One of my friends here at TM would likely respond to me, "it's all spiritual", it refers to the murder of our "tares" within, and the "life of the wheat" within.  The "old cov" man has to be destroyed (murdered, raped, etc) in order for the new to live.   

I say great; i see that; and that makes total sense.  But that doesn't exclude that literal orchestrated events by God that appear to me to be totally against LOVE happen.   


Then you come back with the literal flesh has to be destroyed, as in 'human life", and I don't understand it.  I still hold that the "flesh" is a mindset; not literal humans. 

but anyway; I don't buy it.  God ordering his human army to go in and wipe out others, God punishing 4 generations for sins committed prior, God sending in the Romans to wipe out the Jews ad the temple;


I sure as heck don't set boundaries for my beautiful kids that result in torture, murder, etc.

[Zeek]

:cloud9: And did you read these?

1Co 10:9 - Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who did they tempt in the wilderness before being destroyed of serpents? Was it the "evil" OT God? So do we have the mind of Christ in this, or no?

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What drew them away to bring about their death?

If you see a parent, set up boundaries such as telling their son not to drive drunk or he may die in a wreck, and he does it anyway and dies, do you then blame the parent who set up the boundary, or the child who ignored the boundary being led away of their own lust?

Or do you praise the parent for preparing things that they might inherit life eternal regardless of their bad decisions? God prepared the end ahead of time.

To me, assigning this false "nature" to God, is the same as Job's wife/soul saying to him, curse God and die, because of all the external circumstances he had to go thru to receive the double portion, for Job received double.

And as for a personal application, when my son was nearly brutally murdered with steel pipes he was beaten in the skull with and brain damaged, I saw the hand of God in it, because he was restored almost completely, though the doctors said he would be a vegetable if he lived, and most important of all, within two weeks of his release from the hospital he received the Lord and was actually praying for his attackers, and telling EVERYONE he met that God had saved him and healed him.

As for me, I had it made LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, TRULY the Lord meant it for good. Blessings....

i reread your post more slowly, and it is good.  thanks.


Would you, if you knew the outcome of your son's story; purposely set this horrible beating up??  It seems to me, that is what God is doing.  It's the wrath OF God.

It also seems that you purposely would of witheld his understanding of your love from him, in order to have this outcome later. 

that is what the verses appear to say of God, which I don't buy.


Now, if God has truly made himself known, and choosign "life ad death" is an option; with death having consequences; then yes i see your point. 

so, once again; for me; it comes down to free will.


except for instances where infants are beaten against rocks, cut out of wombs, etc. 



Jesus revealed the Father, which seems to be much more of a peacemaker and true friend than a jealous God demanding glory. 

[Zeek]

:cloud9: And did you read these?


And as for a personal application, when my son was nearly brutally murdered with steel pipes he was beaten in the skull with and brain damaged, I saw the hand of God in it, because he was restored almost completely, though the doctors said he would be a vegetable if he lived, and most important of all, within two weeks of his release from the hospital he received the Lord and was actually praying for his attackers, and telling EVERYONE he met that God had saved him and healed him.

Cardinal, i hope this isn't too personal,

if your son had died,

do you think then he would have received what was his "lot" or portion because he tempted Christ in the wilderness??  and because he was drawn away from Christ by his own lusts??  and so therefore God destroyed him through "evil"??


Would you be praising God for this beautiful orchestrated evil/grace; knowing it was because of your son's disobedience that he received this evil??