Quote from: SQ on February 14, 2010, 04:48:06 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 14, 2010, 04:04:51 AM
The sooner one leaves his past the sooner one remembers where he came from.
I had a dream about that last night, but can only remember bits and pieces.
I have come to the belief or idea that we were spirits before we were born, yet I am not certain.
SQ, we were with the Lord and only had the knowledge of good.
We came here to learn the knowledge of evil.
Overcome, in the Spirit, and re-take our place as Sons of God.
Bserv, I also believe in (some sort) of pre-existence (at death, spirit returns to God Who gave it).
What are your thoughts on why this ["We came here to learn the knowledge of evil.
Overcome, in the Spirit, and re-take our place as Sons of God."] might be the process? What do you think God's reasons might be for doing it this way, i.e., lowering us into this condition to learn, rather than say, just create it or originally make it that way? There would be a good reason for it, and I've read something(s) on it, but just not quite sure myself.
Blessings, James.
Hi jabcat..
Possibly if we only knew good then how could we become sons of God if we only knew good, since God knows both.
We have to know both to become like God.
God knows both good and evil it is a balance.
Thanks for opening this cause I have a important question (pertaining) I will look it up in a bit. I am sure it has a simple explaination that hasn't came to me yet.
In Genseis 2:9
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight,and good for food;the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
He planted a tree with the knowledge both good and evil.
Then In Matthew 7:17 every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bring forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
we can't bring forth good fruit until we have been cast into the fire since we have good and evil??
19 Every tree that bringeth forth not good fruit is hewn down and and cast into the fire.
I am asking and I believe we are having evil burned out of us now while we are living?
cast in the fire burned to stubble, then we can return back to the Father the day of death?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 The spirit shall return to God who gave it.
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
QuoteSQ, we were with the Lord and only had the knowledge of good.
We came here to learn the knowledge of evil.
Overcome, in the Spirit, and re-take our place as Sons of God.
QuoteBserv, I also believe in (some sort) of pre-existence (at death, spirit returns to God Who gave it).
This is Mormon doctrine, and is not biblical. There is no biblical backing. What gives you reason to believe this, because it's not in the bible.
QuoteWe have to know both to become like God.
That is the lie of the serpent, Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man,
He made him in the likeness of God."
Man was in the likeness of God, the serpent approached Eve and cunning as he was suggested that she wasn't like him by saying...Genesis 3:5"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." If God had already made them according to His likeness then man was His likeness, the serpent lied to Eve and through His lie decieved her and through her the whole world into believing we aren't like Him.
QuoteThere is no biblical backing. What gives you reason to believe this, because it's not in the bible.
There is biblical support for REnewing, REdeemed, REstored, REstoration, REvealing, etc.
why the re: prefix, which means "again, recall etc".
Dallas, none of us have all the absolute answers, and in my post I said "I believe" and "some sort of" pre-existence...I also noted scripture, that the spirit REturns to God who gave it. Also, God created MAN, yet breathed the spirit into him. So that may be two different/separate things/entities.
Maybe it's "just" the spirit that pre-existed, I don't know. But if so, I also don't know what our spirits may have "known", experienced, etc. Maybe much more or much less than we know.
As far as Mormon doctrine - the Mormons believe a lot of things, I guess - some scriptural, some not.
I agree Zeek, RE - just not sure what all that means, so again, interesting discussion.
Joh 9:2 And His disciples ask Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents that he should be born blind?
This appears to support the idea of our preexistence, at least as something that was believed by the Jews in the time of Christ. Notice that they not only asked if his parents sinned so that the man was born blind, but they also asked if the man himself sinned so that he was born blind as a result, meaning that they believed it was possible for him to sin before he was born.
As to those who do not believe in preexistence, they might reply that all the "re" words have to do with Adam, applying to us who were in Adam's loins at the time of his sin, and that in that way we are redeemed, etc.
Just providing different points to the discussion either way.
As to the image of God, I would think that those who believe in pre existence would say that being in the image of God speaks of physicality, just as Christ, as a man, is the image of the invisible (because of being Spirit) God. Perhaps the idea then that man was made, or molded, by the dust of the ground, into the image of the invisible God, they being invisible before then as well.
Ron
The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other. In other words, to bring back to a state of health, soundness, or vitality of life; not death.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade; kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power, until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith, of greater worth than gold which perishes even though refined by fire, may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (1 Peter 1:3-7)
By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. (1 Corinthians 6:14)
This know also, that in the last day(s) perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Tim 3:1-7)
"One side of an equation, outweighs the other; life is greater than death."
peacemaker
One can only be renewed in knowledge by refreshing or recalling something he has known before. We often read over such statements so lightly and carelessly, missing the true implication and import of the words! The scriptures are very clear that each of us came into this world out of the bosom of the Father. Before the Creator formed you, He knew you. He didn't know you in your present physical form as Joe Smith or Sally Brown, but He knew you as spirit. God spoke to you about His plan for your life before ever you were formed as an embryo in the womb of your mother. Paul states it so clearly when he says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love" (Eph. 1:3-4). The Amplified Bible reads, "Even as He chose us, actually picked us out for Himself in Christ, before the foundation of the world."
Never doubt this reality for a moment — the only way God could have loved you, chose you in Christ, and picked you out for His own before the foundation of the world is that you truly existed in and with Him before the appearing of the worlds. Nothing can be plainer than that! Yet we have supposed that we were just recently, in this life, apprehended of God to sonship. I thought the work of God began in my life seventy years ago. Now I find that the thing God is doing with humanity began in eternity! It didn't begin in time. It began before the ages were framed! God loved me, knew me, counseled with me, and picked me out for His unique purpose before the foundation of the world. My origin was in God! God begat me by His Word — in Christ — as spirit before He exhaled me as spirit into a very unique body upon earth.
Each of us were born into a mortal, physical body and into a world of darkness, sin, and death. Our spiritual life was buried, covered, encased, concealed within the prison house of a natural, worldly, human consciousness just as the little child I mentioned earlier was imprisoned in a room with no ability to relate to the world he was in or to understand, express, expand, or function on that level. But this was according to God's plan! It wasn't Adam that created the cunning serpent or invented the desirable tree of the knowledge of good and evil or placed in man's path the way of death. Oh, no! It was God who planted the garden eastward in Eden and placed all these things strategically in it! But God had both a purpose and a plan! Paul speaks of an action of God involved in that plan when he says that we are "in hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2). This is indeed wonderful! We were born into this world with a promise from God — the promise of eternal life! This promise of salvation and life more abundant was given us before the world began! When we came here we were born with a promise! How could God make such a promise to us if we were not there with Him before the worlds appeared? Furthermore, we were predestinated at that time to be the manifest sons of God! "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:28-29). Not only were salvation and sonship promised, the kingdom was promised also! "Then shall the King (Jesus) say to them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mat. 25:34).
All these wonderful things happened to us, and many more too numerous to mention at this time, before we entered this world as a human being. But do you remember any of it? Can you remember when you were there with the Father? Can you remember Him informing you of the plan, the purpose, in sending you to earth? Can you remember what was said, what you knew, what you agreed to, and why, and what you had when you were there with the Father? Do you remember being chosen in Christ, promised eternal life, promised a kingdom to reign in, and predestined unto placement as a son of God, before the foundation of the world? Do you remember the beginning of your journey?
Ah — YOU ARE REMEMBERING! Do you know how you're remembering? The answer is simple — all revelation is but a remembering!
J Preston Eby
KingdomBibleStudies.org
FROM THE CANDLESTICK TO THE THRONE
part 74
"Formed and endued with life."
It is probably about time those of us who think that we are intelligent creatures, started using the priceless faculties of reason and independent thought with which we have been divinely endowed, or clothed.
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance (1 Peter 1:14 ). And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good; acceptable and perfect (Romans 12:2).
The Titans of Mythologies collectively confuse many.
peacemaker
QuoteGod spoke to you about His plan for your life before ever you were formed
Really? You remember this do you? Cause there are no scriptures that support that, even trying to stretch what you have stretched.
Quotethe only way God could have loved you, chose you in Christ, and picked you out for His own before the foundation of the world is that you truly existed in and with Him before the appearing of the worlds
My daughter before she was concieved, before I knew my wife, before I was thinking about a name I already knew I was in love with her, I chose her above all other children, that I would love her and give myself for her. Without a meeting she already had all the love and even more love from me than I was able to live in.
As far as you meeting Him before because He chose you before the foundations of the earth, by that logic Jesus died twice eh? So apperantly the one that happened before the foundation of the world didn't take? Jesus also died the first death since He died before the foundation, not Adam...even though Hebrews says over and over again that Jesus died ONCE! The scripture says straight forward, Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, yet Hebrews says He only died ONCE!
Maybe, and just maybe.... That when all the talkk about before was refering to the foreknowledge? That God, the Master Builder saw the need for forgiveness because His creation was going to crumble due to sin. But since He, the builder, who was going to build us all , who knew every detail in which He was going to build us, He who knew us through His own planning of us, drew out a plan before hand....Just like a Master Builder does?
Maybe it could be refering to that.....wait no it must actually be refering to mystical former lives. Sound biblical context, not a need to distort scripture to serve the newest need of a whim.
Genesis 2:7 "Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
We didn't become alive until creation. Man wasn't a spirit before hand needing a husk for our spirit to find a vehicle in which to travel this physical plane. If you also look at the scripture God breathed the gift of life into the body.
The living condition was empowered, turned on, activated, otherwise had a start. It doesn't say God made the man from the ground and lead a spirit into it, or gave it to a spirit, or filled it with a spirit.
It says, the spirit of God gave man life. You recieved life through the spirit, you didn't have spirit or exsist as spirit until life was breathed from THE SPIRIT.
The rehma of God, went out from Him and thusly empowered the body.
Unless you think God's spirit is a conglomerate of mankinds spirits? Then that's a whole other issue, and I would beable to know you are really not interested in truth but in vain philosophy, emphasizing imagination over straight forward thinking.
I'm really not trying to be "all up on myself, or a know it all" I will however talk and exlain the things that are plainly obvious and need to be said, maybe to help to keep things from floating away into all mysticism.
I do not think it is a question of whether we were in spirit form before, it is a matter of the nature of that spirit.
We came from God, through God and by God, we were not created from nothing as is commonly taught. I believe we was given a "type" of life we did not have before, not that we were not life before, but now conscious and unique as opposed to being void.
Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at as a possibility - that our spirits existed as either from and/or a part of God - and was then placed in the dust of man. Scripture says we were lowered into this condition. What our spirits experienced prior to this I really have little idea. God's too big for me to completely get a handle on, ya' know? :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on February 15, 2010, 04:58:13 PM
Scripture says we were lowered into this condition.
Lowered means once we were higher....(?)
In Genesis God makes a dead man from dust. But when that dead body gets life; that life is not said to be created but just 'blown in'.
So both hint to a pre-existance.
:thumbsup: Yes, that's kind'a how I was seeing it too, Tony, as noted in this earlier post as well.
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2010, 11:22:11 PM
God created MAN, yet breathed...into him.
Wasn't God's breath 'spirit'? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'll study it some more, but may need more than one opinion on which to establish a firm belief.
Some interesting info I found here - http://www.christian-oneness.org/authors/disclosure.html
Genesis 1:1-3, 1:26-27 & 2:7 (WEB). It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
In order to understand what it means that God is spirit, a linguistic observation should first be made. The Hebrew word commonly translated "spirit" has as its primary meaning "breath." Indeed, the King James translators render this word as "breath" in twenty six places. Further, in three passages this Hebrew word, as applied to God, is stated in direct parallel to another word which is rendered "breath" or &wind." Moreover, in John 4:21-24, quoted above, the Greek word pneuma , the primary meaning of which is "breath," "breeze" or "wind," is rendered "spirit" three times. Pneuma is, indeed, the only word used to refer to the spirit of God or of a man in the New Testament. The spirits of both God and men are directly compared to the wind in John 3:5-8 (WEB):
----------------------------------
I'll check out some other POVs. Still, there's the primary scripture I think of that says when man dies, the spirit REturns to God. Can something return somewhere it's never been?
Hey Jab,
Yes, there is indeed a correlation between spirit and breath. Here is another witness to the understanding:
Job 32:8 But surely it is the spirit (ruach) in a mortal, and the breath (neshamath) of Him Who Suffices that gives them understanding.
Notice in this Hebrew parallelism, the spirit in man is synonymous with the breath of God. And that breath, or spirit, gives understanding. To us that makes no sense, thinking that the exchange of oxygen would give understanding, but to them it made perfect sense, for it is the breath that carries words, words which teach, and in teaching, understanding is given. The breath of men and God, in Hebrew thought, has the ability to carry thought and emotion. In this case, that teaching in inward, in man's spirit, the breath of God by which man lives.
Ron
Thanks - yeah, there's something there - probably too much for us to grasp. But I think we've got some hints/clues. To me, it's encouraging, comforting, hopeful - like maybe we're even more connected to God than perhaps we realize. Makes me think of "in His image"...that's gotta be more than just a phrase God tossed out there ... Thanks.
I read a Jewish article about their views on spirit. Not 100% sure but I think the names used were to Ron mentioned.
ruach and neshamath
One they call 'the animal spirit' => everything alive hase the animal spirit = life force.
Humans have that animal spirit too. But they have a 'extra spirit'
So I wonder if the animal spirit just dies (life force gone) and that other spirit goes back to Father.
That made/makes sense to me until I read views that animals goto heaven too. Because animals only have an animal spirit it can't just die...?
Gonna search for the article.
Wasn't Adam and Eve in spirit before they became flesh?
I don't know, but someone mentioned it on this board, it made sense.
http://www.jewishmag.com/131mag/mendel_soul/mendel_soul.htm (http://www.jewishmag.com/131mag/mendel_soul/mendel_soul.htm)
Lesson 8 - the 5 parts of the soul. (http://www.613.org/hasidism/08.htm)
http://books.google.nl/books?id=ips9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=ruach+neshamath&source=bl&ots=OmAMLXwDB9&sig=MtcKGEEmQRs_GkOGibJM-NuxPy0&hl=nl&ei=JZJ5S6XUEIXu-AajlL3zDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ruach%20neshamath&f=false (http://books.google.nl/books?id=ips9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=ruach+neshamath&source=bl&ots=OmAMLXwDB9&sig=MtcKGEEmQRs_GkOGibJM-NuxPy0&hl=nl&ei=JZJ5S6XUEIXu-AajlL3zDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ruach%20neshamath&f=false)
:thumbdown:
Wow!
:doh:
Can't believe how far gone this site is. Next lets discuss how Oh Henry Bars were the foundation of the earth. :dontknow:
'by that logic Jesus died twice,eh?"
Numbers 20;7 Listen you rebels, must we bring you water
out of the rock?.THEN MOSES RAISED HIS ARM AND STRUCK
THE ROCK TWICE
fourty years earlier in the beginning of the wandering
Moses had been instructed to strike the rock once...
Exodus 17;6 strike the rock and water will come out for the people
what do you think Michael was disputing with satan over
Moses body about? The Lord rebuke you, was Michael's reply
what do you think the rock is symbolic of? what is Moses
symbolic of. who are the two wittness lying dead in the
figurative Sodom and Egypt. Jacob served twice times 7 years
for his desired bride.
why do you think that the striking of the rock twice happened
at the most important time of entering the promised land...
forty years later. God said 'speak to the rock'
why do you think some are twice dead?Jude 12
Eccl 6;6 -even if he lives a thousand years twice over
BUT FAILS TO ENJOY HIS PROSPERITY[why did He remain
three days in the grave...why perfected on the third day?]
yes, it was appointed once for Christ to die...and shown forth
there at the beginning of the wilderness journey when the
rock was struck and water come out...that water is what has led
us through all the wilderness wanderings .....
but do YOU know what the two strikes on the Rock that
brought forth the water forty years later means? that which
occurred NOT at the instruction of God.
when death is conquered at the resurrection of the
dead...then why is death thrown into the lake of fire? the
secound death. why a resurrection of the unrightous...when
all have born the image of the corrupt and will bear the image
f the incorruptible.
why is there a double portion,a double annointing...
why are we clothed with double garments[Pr 21;31]
Ezekiel 47;9...refers to the double-sized torrent
if there is a DAY OF JUDGEMENT...WHY WAS JESUS CHRIST
DEAD FOR THREE DAYS?...rising on the third....was He not twice
dead for those two days..?Did not Father promise to cut that
time short for the elects sake?
were not the stars created on the fourth day...did not all
the stars fall from the sky.... where not two great lights made
the greater to govern the day and the lesser light to govern
the night..was not man created on the sixth day...and to
receive his rest on the seventh Sabbath day?
were not Abraham's seed like the stars of the heaven and the sands of the sea?
there is MUCH to be revealed....and HE HAS PROMISED
NOTHING CONCEALED WILL NOT BE REVEALED IN THAT DAY
PRAISE HIM FOR ALL HIS GLORIOUS WORKS!!!
I mean, if this is the discussion cool. But there is no sound biblical reference to the reasoning why, what we have is simply personal theory... no biblical understanding.
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:01:08 PM
I mean, if this is the discussion cool. But there is no sound biblical reference to the reasoning why, what we have is simply personal theory... no biblical understanding.
What determines what is a "sound" biblical reference?
Hey Shelia I can do that too....
Judges 6:20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread and lay them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And he did so.
Judges 15:8 "He struck them ruthlessly with a great slaughter; and he went down and lived in the cleft of the rock of Etam."
See, God commands us to kill people and rest in Him.
We can't just take scripture and use it for whatever purpose, it must be kept in context!!! Otherwise this foolishness continues.
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:01:08 PM
I mean, if this is the discussion cool.
I think that's exactly what it is Dallas. Who do you see in this discussion insisting on their own POV?
Everyone here is looking within the scriptures, discussing thoughts, possibilities. I believe in being scripture-oriented, but not necessarily just one person's interpretation of those scriptures. That's why it's a discussion. Do you have something you'd like to add besides disdain?
QuoteWhat determines what is a "sound" biblical reference?
contextual reliability
Like I just showed, anyone can take any scripture and put meaning to it. But using scripture outside of it's origonal intended usage is irresponsible. Using a word outside of it's deffinition also.
Dallas I don't see you using scriptures in this thread, but you are saying those that do are taking out of context?
As for me I am just a student and learning, none of us has all truth yet as far as I know.
QuoteEveryone here is looking within the scriptures, discussing thoughts, possibilities. I believe in scripture-oriented, but not necessarily just one person's interpretation of those scriptures. That's why it's a discussion. Do you have something you'd like to add besides disdain?
Interpretation is one thing and everyone will have a slant on it, that's not the issue. The issue is complete irresponsibility to the obvious reshaping to context and missuse of words to further their own agenda.
Everyone can have their slant, that's interesting and cool....what's not is obvious attemps to argue and reshape for the purpose of reshaping.
QuoteDallas I don't see you using scriptures in this thread, but you are saying those that do are taking out of context?
As for me I am just a student and learning, none of us has all truth yet as far as I know.
Good, well at least we know you haven't read this from the beginning....
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:20:52 PM
QuoteDallas I don't see you using scriptures in this thread, but you are saying those that do are taking out of context?
As for me I am just a student and learning, none of us has all truth yet as far as I know.
Good, well at least we know you haven't read this from the beginning....
I have read all this thread and every post in it.
I was saying what scriptures you used don't prove your interpetation is any more right.
Ok, I will try and just read this thread here on. :thumbsup:
SQ, you have every right to keep posting in this thread, and I encourage you to do so.
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:19:09 PM
QuoteEveryone here is looking within the scriptures, discussing thoughts, possibilities. I believe in scripture-oriented, but not necessarily just one person's interpretation of those scriptures. That's why it's a discussion. Do you have something you'd like to add besides disdain?
Interpretation is one thing and everyone will have a slant on it, that's not the issue. The issue is complete irresponsibility to the obvious reshaping to context and missuse of words to further their own agenda.
Everyone can have their slant, that's interesting and cool....what's not is obvious attemps to argue and reshape for the purpose of reshaping.
For the sake of discussion then Dallas, without attacking anyone, what do you see as 1) complete irresponsibility [are we sure we wouldn't be judging if we claimed that?], 2) reshaping to context [your exception to what sheila said?], and 3) misuse of words? Let's just talk, OK, and back this down and reason together. Somebody might learn something if we're not careful ...
Quote from: jabcat on February 15, 2010, 09:29:34 PM
SQ, you have every right to keep posting in this thread, and I encourage you to do so.
Thank you, you are encouraging and this has been something of interest to me for quite a while.
QuoteSQ, you have every right to keep posting in this thread, and I encourage you to do so.
Just for the sake of interest.....who said SQ didn't have the right?
I interpreted SQ as "backing down" due to your comments, and saying she wouldn't post anymore, just read.
I'll let SQ speak for herself though...I was addressing her.
And I agree Dallas, context is important..and Spirit revelation, and accurate translation, and rightly dividing. That's where the different understandings can come in. I'm interested in discussion though, not silly struggling.
Let's get back to discussing the topic.
QuoteFor the sake of discussion then Dallas, without attacking anyone, what do you see as 1) complete irresponsibility [are we sure we wouldn't be judging if we claimed that?], 2) reshaping to context [your exception to what sheila said?], and 3) misuse of words? Let's just talk, OK, and back this down and reason together. Somebody might learn something if we're not careful ...
Complete irresponsibility.... The book Moby Dick, is about a whale. For someone to come in and say it's actually a piranah would be irresponsible, one it's not true to the literature and it's quite misleading.
Reshaping, Shelia quoted scripture, that's fine. The problem is one can twist the meaning as a single verse to bring it into context with what we were discussing, but it has to be removed from the context from it's intended meaning. It stops meaning what it was talking about and becasme whatever Shelia needed it to talk about.
QuoteNumbers 20;7 Listen you rebels, must we bring you water
out of the rock?.THEN MOSES RAISED HIS ARM AND STRUCK
THE ROCK TWICE
-Shelia
Moses striking the Rock twice has absolutley no bearing upon whether Jesus had in fact died twice or once.
That's reshaping
Again, I agree with context.
Maybe sheila will want to discuss why she understands it that way. We'll see.
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:39:19 PM
QuoteSQ, you have every right to keep posting in this thread, and I encourage you to do so.
Just for the sake of interest.....who said SQ didn't have the right?
No one did, I am here to learn and discussions are good to learn from.
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:13:01 PM
QuoteWhat determines what is a "sound" biblical reference?
contextual reliability
Like I just showed, anyone can take any scripture and put meaning to it. But using scripture outside of it's origonal intended usage is irresponsible. Using a word outside of it's deffinition also.
What context is being shown unreliable in this thread? Your example is an example that no one is asserting, and just because you maintain that it can be done, doesn;t prove anything in the thread is of that nature.
Perhaps prove an actual point being made in this thread that is contextually unreliable.
QuoteAgain, I agree with context.
Maybe sheila will want to discuss why she understands it that way. We'll see.
There we go....now you are seeing my issue.
I don't care how she sees it, in fact I would love to try to wrap my mind around such an idea, because to me its completley flawed beyond reason...
But she doesn't, she puts, (not trying to pick on you shelia, you just happen to be the example), she puts it out there without reason, but as on a whim trying to prove or disprove, argumentatively.
Without discussion, but instead philosophical and mystically magical and unsubstantiated claims, people end up lost without biblical foundation to reason out thier views.
When I challenge someone, they get upset then everyone tries to back them up in order to show support for thier friend.
Again not a very healthy discussion platform.
QuotePerhaps prove an actual point being made in this thread that is contextually unreliable.
I just did with the shelia example. We were discussing the idea that because scripture says God chose us before the foundations of the world that proves that we were as spirits of sort before hand.
I challenged that statement saying, that reasoning is flawed for scripture also says that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, meaning Jesus and not Adam suffered the first death, that the first sacrifice for us didn't work therefore our God is weak, that Hebrews says Jesus died once, Hebrews says this repeatedly.
The Shelia quotes Numbers 20;7 Listen you rebels, must we bring you water
out of the rock?.THEN MOSES RAISED HIS ARM AND STRUCK
THE ROCK TWICE
-Shelia
Moses striking the Rock twice has absolutley no bearing upon whether Jesus had in fact died twice or once.
That's reshaping, and irresponsible.
I see your point Dallas, perhaps I am misunderstanding what your challenging specifically, are you challenging sheila's specific point about Jesus dying twice, or do you feel the idea of being spirits before our creation as humans is contextually irresponsible or both?
Dallas,
Your argument still doesn't hold water,as far as I see.
for instance...Jesus spoke of many things in parable form..He
purposely said things in such a way..and often seemingly out of
context.He didn't break any context law.The law is for the
lawless..not the Holy Ghost.[in order that they may 'hear' but
not understand'
example...the claims of Jesus about himself John 8;48
the conversation is about Jesus being a samaritan and demon-
possessed...Jesus counters with denial..stating anyone that
keeps his word will not see death.The Jews counter..now we
know for sure..even Abraham died...Jesus counters 'your
Father,Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day;he
saw it,and was glad.".The jews counter..your not yet 50 years old
and you have seen Abraham....Jesus replies.".before Abraham
was born,I AM." At this they picked up stones to stone him.
what do you imagine being in the image of the last Adam..a
LIFE_GIVING SPIRIT could be.?
Are we not to be in Jesus Christ image...a life-giving spirit..
wouldn't that same spirit return to the Father?
The interpretation of prophecy is NOT of man..in that you can
understand it through con-text....for the spirit is without
beginning or end. DEAD LETTER OF THE WORD is what I
refer to as your context 'law' It actually 'kills' that which is due
to be revealed...[and if it is 'hidden' then it is not apparent in
that letter of the 'word' or 'context'
and it must be revealed through Holy
Ghost/spirit.}..as Jesus told..He will lead you into all truth..
.
WORD+SPIRIT is the glorious
freedom of the SONS OF GOD......in the image of Christ....
a life-giving spirit
only He can translate the word of God come in flesh..from
death to life. The First-born of the dead is our 'pattern' son
unless you remain unregenerated and are 'from' below.
Just what is the pattern of Him born of the will of God and
not man.?
Your attitude[disposition] should be the SAME as that of
Jesus Christ; WHO BEING in VERY NATURE GOD, did not
consider equality something to be grasped, but made himself
nothing,TAKING THE VERY NATURE OF A SERVANT, BEING MADE
IN HUMAN LIKENESS, AND BEING FOUND IN APPEARANCE AS A
MAN, he humbled himself and became obediant to death-even
death on a cross! Now, this is the image and pattern of the
last Adam..a life-giving spirit....and this same pattern we to are
all to bear the image of.
I AM THE WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE
1 Cor 15;45 So it is written; the first man Adam became a
living being, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did
not come first, but the natural,and after that the spiritual. The
first man was of the dust of the earth, the secound man from
heaven. As was the earthly man, so was those who are of the
earth; and AS IS THE MAN FROM HEAVEN,SO ALSO ARE THOSE
WHO ARE OF HEAVEN. And just as we have borne the likeness
of the earthly man, SO SHALL WE BEAR THE LIKENESS OF THE
MAN FROM HEAVEN
QuoteI see your point Dallas, perhaps I am misunderstanding what your challenging specifically, are you challenging sheila's specific point about Jesus dying twice, or do you feel the idea of being spirits before our creation as humans is contextually irresponsible or both?
are you challenging sheila's specific point about Jesus dying twiceYes.
or do you feel the idea of being spirits before our creation as humans is contextually irresponsible or bothEveryone is allowed to have a thought or an opinion, I'm not challenging the idea of pre-exsistance, I'm challenging people to explain where biblically they gain that understanding and why. Then I challenge their explanations because they resort to Context Irresponsibility to defend their theory.
QuoteDallas,
Your argument still doesn't hold water,as far as I see.
for instance...Jesus spoke of many things in parable form..He
purposely said things in such a way..and often seemingly out of
context.He didn't break any context law.The law is for the
lawless..not the Holy Ghost.[in order that they may 'hear' but
not understand'
example...the claims of Jesus about himself John 8;48
the conversation is about Jesus being a samaritan and demon-
possessed...Jesus counters with denial..stating anyone that
keeps his word will not see death.The Jews counter..now we
know for sure..even Abraham died...Jesus counters 'your
Father,Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day;he
saw it,and was glad.".The jews counter..your not yet 50 years old
and you have seen Abraham....Jesus replies.".before Abraham
was born,I AM." At this they picked up stones to stone him.
What argument doesn't hold water? I'm not making a point, all I'm doing is challenging the notion of pre-exsistance?
Als, what are you getting at here? There is no point, you stopped in mid thought?
Quotewhat do you imagine being in the image of the last Adam..a
LIFE_GIVING SPIRIT could be.?
Are we not to be in Jesus Christ image...a life-giving spirit..
wouldn't that same spirit return to the Father?
What does that have to do with pre-exsistance and what does that have to do with Jesus dying twice? You are getting lost in a conversation I never had with you.
QuoteThe interpretation of prophecy is NOT of man..in that you can
understand it through con-text....for the spirit is without
beginning or end.
So, because you can't understand it you are claiming no MAN can? That's mystcal non-sense. Some magical power from some magical being will give you magical insight. That sight then would make you quite special then eh? That is the reason why the bible says it's through wisdom that comes understanding, not the distorted mystical experience one can cook up in thier own mind. Even in Revelation the writer tells us, "let him who has UNDERSTANDING reckon the number of the beast." Not let Him who has mystical revelation.
Simply put, prophecy is quite over the heads of many, many people... not because it's special and they aren't but because they don't have the biblical litteracy to understand the bible. You woudn't ask a grade 3 math student to figure out nuculear physics...but you wouldn't exclude them the study that gets you there also. The bible is literature and must be read and understood as such...it's inspiered literature but literature non-the-less.
Hi All,
If we were some kind of spirit before we became human, why don't we remember anything about it? Jesus was a spirit being before he became human and he has a remembrence of it.
I doubt very much that we were a spirit being before we became human. From what I read and understand, we existed only in the mind of God before we became human. God had a plan for everything before he made it a reality. There are scriptures where God tells Moses and others to make such and such "according to the PATTERN I showed you".
The spirit that returns to God is our breath which keeps us alive. I believe our minds or thoughts are like a tape recorder which shuts off when we die and when we become immortal God reactivates it again.
(Ecc.12:6-7) Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The thing is, what is this SPIRIT that will return to God? I believe it is our breath which gives us life.
(Job. 33:4) The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
(Psalms 146:4) His breath goeth forth, he RETURNETH to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
(Ecc. 3:20) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
CHB
I don't know if you're right or not C, but it's certainly worth considering. Well presented :thumbsup:.
Quote from: CHB on February 16, 2010, 02:24:34 AM
Hi All,
If we were some kind of spirit before we became human, why don't we remember anything about it? Jesus was a spirit being before he became human and he has a remembrence of it.
Jesus came by a different means.
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
what were they before they slept?? what are they awakening to??
Quote from: Zeek on February 16, 2010, 01:58:00 PM
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
what were they before they slept?? what are they awakening to??
Sleep => dead => spiritual dead => sleeper are/were sinners :dontknow: :2c: :bgdance:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 16, 2010, 06:23:22 AM
Quote from: CHB on February 16, 2010, 02:24:34 AM
Hi All,
If we were some kind of spirit before we became human, why don't we remember anything about it? Jesus was a spirit being before he became human and he has a remembrence of it.
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
Jesus came by a different means.
Hi Paul,
You are right but Jesus became human just like we are. Jesus came directly from God and Jesus knew where he came from. (John 8:23) And he said unto them, YE ARE FROM BENEATH; I am from above: YE ARE OF THIS WORLD; I am not of this world.
(John 7:29) But I know him: for I am FROM HIM. We did not originate directly from God in the same way that Jesus did because we were made from the earth and God gave us life by his breath, which I believe is what returns to God when we die. I do believe our breath or life is what makes our brains work.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 16, 2010, 03:12:42 PM
Quote from: Zeek on February 16, 2010, 01:58:00 PM
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
what were they before they slept?? what are they awakening to??
Sleep => dead => spiritual dead => sleeper are/were sinners :dontknow: :2c: :bgdance:
yes, but were they created "asleep" or were they "put to sleep"?
Is that a trick question Zeek? :icon_jokercolor:
I don't know but perhaps the answer is in Genesis?
Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Where is the verse that states Adam woke up? Bit far fetched perhaps.....? :mshock:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 16, 2010, 09:02:07 PM
Is that a trick question Zeek? :icon_jokercolor:
I don't know but perhaps the answer is in Genesis?
Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Where is the verse that states Adam woke up? Bit far fetched perhaps.....? :mshock:
i'm thinking there is a relationship to the verse in Romans 7, "i was
alive once without the law, then the commandment came and I died".
In that case we are "put to sleep" by the law(giver).
There it is. Your answer!
Maybe :winkgrin:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 15, 2010, 02:54:31 AM
One can only be renewed in knowledge by refreshing or recalling something he has known before. We often read over such statements so lightly and carelessly, missing the true implication and import of the words! The scriptures are very clear that each of us came into this world out of the bosom of the Father. Before the Creator formed you, He knew you. He didn't know you in your present physical form as Joe Smith or Sally Brown, but He knew you as spirit. God spoke to you about His plan for your life before ever you were formed as an embryo in the womb of your mother. Paul states it so clearly when he says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love" (Eph. 1:3-4). The Amplified Bible reads, "Even as He chose us, actually picked us out for Himself in Christ, before the foundation of the world."
Never doubt this reality for a moment — the only way God could have loved you, chose you in Christ, and picked you out for His own before the foundation of the world is that you truly existed in and with Him before the appearing of the worlds. Nothing can be plainer than that! Yet we have supposed that we were just recently, in this life, apprehended of God to sonship. I thought the work of God began in my life seventy years ago. Now I find that the thing God is doing with humanity began in eternity! It didn't begin in time. It began before the ages were framed! God loved me, knew me, counseled with me, and picked me out for His unique purpose before the foundation of the world. My origin was in God! God begat me by His Word — in Christ — as spirit before He exhaled me as spirit into a very unique body upon earth.
Each of us were born into a mortal, physical body and into a world of darkness, sin, and death. Our spiritual life was buried, covered, encased, concealed within the prison house of a natural, worldly, human consciousness just as the little child I mentioned earlier was imprisoned in a room with no ability to relate to the world he was in or to understand, express, expand, or function on that level. But this was according to God's plan! It wasn't Adam that created the cunning serpent or invented the desirable tree of the knowledge of good and evil or placed in man's path the way of death. Oh, no! It was God who planted the garden eastward in Eden and placed all these things strategically in it! But God had both a purpose and a plan! Paul speaks of an action of God involved in that plan when he says that we are "in hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2). This is indeed wonderful! We were born into this world with a promise from God — the promise of eternal life! This promise of salvation and life more abundant was given us before the world began! When we came here we were born with a promise! How could God make such a promise to us if we were not there with Him before the worlds appeared? Furthermore, we were predestinated at that time to be the manifest sons of God! "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:28-29). Not only were salvation and sonship promised, the kingdom was promised also! "Then shall the King (Jesus) say to them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mat. 25:34).
All these wonderful things happened to us, and many more too numerous to mention at this time, before we entered this world as a human being. But do you remember any of it? Can you remember when you were there with the Father? Can you remember Him informing you of the plan, the purpose, in sending you to earth? Can you remember what was said, what you knew, what you agreed to, and why, and what you had when you were there with the Father? Do you remember being chosen in Christ, promised eternal life, promised a kingdom to reign in, and predestined unto placement as a son of God, before the foundation of the world? Do you remember the beginning of your journey?
Ah — YOU ARE REMEMBERING! Do you know how you're remembering? The answer is simple — all revelation is but a remembering!
J Preston Eby
KingdomBibleStudies.org
FROM THE CANDLESTICK TO THE THRONE
part 74
:cloud9: Just a few minutes here to say a loud AMEN. Of course we were existant before as spirit; Christ IS a Spirit, and we were in Him from the foundation of the world.
He breathes out = we go into a body (live from OUR point of view). He breathes in = we leave that body (die from OUR point of view). From HIS point of view it's exactly opposite.
He is both the reason we're here in this death of a grave (the body), AND our salvation from it.
As a side note; He told me 23 years ago, that I was not really learning the things in the Word, but rather REMEMBERING them. So I witness what J. Preston Eby said. Blessings...
Hi Paul,
Quote
You are right but Jesus became human just like we are. Jesus came directly from God and Jesus knew where he came from. (John 8:23) And he said unto them, YE ARE FROM BENEATH; I am from above: YE ARE OF THIS WORLD; I am not of this world.
(John 7:29) But I know him: for I am FROM HIM. We did not originate directly from God in the same way that Jesus did because we were made from the earth and God gave us life by his breath, which I believe is what returns to God when we die. I do believe our breath or life is what makes our brains work.
CHB
Two really good points!! :thumbsup:
can't wait till we remember everything! :icon_king:
...and that's when the Shekinah of the Lord rises above the the Ark.
Not long ago I was thinking I am sick of this mess here I just want to go home.
I wondered why do I feel homesick of a place I have never been, but I was told by others here they have felt this same feeling.
I would love to remember something other than feeling homesick.
I want my memory back. :icon_king:
Romans 12;2
as we take on the mind of Christ.
Many will forget this scripture — tomorrow!
I read that again, I have read many times before thanks for the reminder.
read between the lines...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNKtyhxsZJo&feature=related
Quote from: SQ on February 17, 2010, 03:53:44 AM
I want my memory back
Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 17, 2010, 04:07:31 AM
as we take on the mind of Christ.
The Spirit brings to remembrance the things we ought to know.
He will always BE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HNuLGBL0Io
Quote from: Cardinal on February 16, 2010, 11:32:47 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 15, 2010, 02:54:31 AM
One can only be renewed in knowledge by refreshing or recalling something he has known before. We often read over such statements so lightly and carelessly, missing the true implication and import of the words! The scriptures are very clear that each of us came into this world out of the bosom of the Father. Before the Creator formed you, He knew you. He didn't know you in your present physical form as Joe Smith or Sally Brown, but He knew you as spirit. God spoke to you about His plan for your life before ever you were formed as an embryo in the womb of your mother. Paul states it so clearly when he says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love" (Eph. 1:3-4). The Amplified Bible reads, "Even as He chose us, actually picked us out for Himself in Christ, before the foundation of the world."
Never doubt this reality for a moment — the only way God could have loved you, chose you in Christ, and picked you out for His own before the foundation of the world is that you truly existed in and with Him before the appearing of the worlds. Nothing can be plainer than that! Yet we have supposed that we were just recently, in this life, apprehended of God to sonship. I thought the work of God began in my life seventy years ago. Now I find that the thing God is doing with humanity began in eternity! It didn't begin in time. It began before the ages were framed! God loved me, knew me, counseled with me, and picked me out for His unique purpose before the foundation of the world. My origin was in God! God begat me by His Word — in Christ — as spirit before He exhaled me as spirit into a very unique body upon earth.
Each of us were born into a mortal, physical body and into a world of darkness, sin, and death. Our spiritual life was buried, covered, encased, concealed within the prison house of a natural, worldly, human consciousness just as the little child I mentioned earlier was imprisoned in a room with no ability to relate to the world he was in or to understand, express, expand, or function on that level. But this was according to God's plan! It wasn't Adam that created the cunning serpent or invented the desirable tree of the knowledge of good and evil or placed in man's path the way of death. Oh, no! It was God who planted the garden eastward in Eden and placed all these things strategically in it! But God had both a purpose and a plan! Paul speaks of an action of God involved in that plan when he says that we are "in hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2). This is indeed wonderful! We were born into this world with a promise from God — the promise of eternal life! This promise of salvation and life more abundant was given us before the world began! When we came here we were born with a promise! How could God make such a promise to us if we were not there with Him before the worlds appeared? Furthermore, we were predestinated at that time to be the manifest sons of God! "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:28-29). Not only were salvation and sonship promised, the kingdom was promised also! "Then shall the King (Jesus) say to them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mat. 25:34).
All these wonderful things happened to us, and many more too numerous to mention at this time, before we entered this world as a human being. But do you remember any of it? Can you remember when you were there with the Father? Can you remember Him informing you of the plan, the purpose, in sending you to earth? Can you remember what was said, what you knew, what you agreed to, and why, and what you had when you were there with the Father? Do you remember being chosen in Christ, promised eternal life, promised a kingdom to reign in, and predestined unto placement as a son of God, before the foundation of the world? Do you remember the beginning of your journey?
Ah — YOU ARE REMEMBERING! Do you know how you're remembering? The answer is simple — all revelation is but a remembering!
J Preston Eby
KingdomBibleStudies.org
FROM THE CANDLESTICK TO THE THRONE
part 74
:cloud9: Just a few minutes here to say a loud AMEN. Of course we were existant before as spirit; Christ IS a Spirit, and we were in Him from the foundation of the world.
He breathes out = we go into a body (live from OUR point of view). He breathes in = we leave that body (die from OUR point of view). From HIS point of view it's exactly opposite.
He is both the reason we're here in this death of a grave (the body), AND our salvation from it.
As a side note; He told me 23 years ago, that I was not really learning the things in the Word, but rather REMEMBERING them. So I witness what J. Preston Eby said. Blessings...
That is interesting, not learning but remembering.
I have recently started reading his writings seriously, really paying attention. :cloud9:
Quote from: Dallas on February 17, 2010, 12:17:57 AM
Hi Paul,
Quote
You are right but Jesus became human just like we are. Jesus came directly from God and Jesus knew where he came from. (John 8:23) And he said unto them, YE ARE FROM BENEATH; I am from above: YE ARE OF THIS WORLD; I am not of this world.
(John 7:29) But I know him: for I am FROM HIM. We did not originate directly from God in the same way that Jesus did because we were made from the earth and God gave us life by his breath, which I believe is what returns to God when we die. I do believe our breath or life is what makes our brains work.
CHB
Two really good points!! :thumbsup:
Jesus became a human form , but he was not exactly like us, he was born differently. I was answering the question concerning why Jesus remembered and we didn't.
Jesus bypassed what could be the cause of our incapacity to remember what Jesus did.
We were not made from the earth, our earthly perception is. Our consciousness transcends this realm.
The following URL is at my site....where I've collected numerous studies on Pre-human existence.
Season these studies with lots of salt....and don't be afraid to peek outside the box called - "IT CAN'T BE SO."
http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/forums/146?page=1
For myself....I do truly believe that we 'may' have existed before this earthly realm.
There are numerous NDE's that verify it to be true....and I understand that they don't hold much water as proof.
Peace, AJ.
"If I lived a billion years more, in my body or yours, there's not a single experience on Earth that could ever be as good as being dead. Nothing."
Your web site looks interesting AJ Hopefully I will be able to read some of it tomorrow.
English Standard Version (©2001)
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
King James Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
American King James Version
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
American Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
Bible in Basic English
These are the generations of the heaven and the earth when they were made.
Douay-Rheims Bible
These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth:
English Revised Version
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.
Webster's Bible Translation
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
World English Bible
This is the history of the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made the earth and the heavens.
Does anyone understand this???
All generations were created, in Him, from the beginning!
The Word of God, Jesus, the Son of man, agreed! to make Himself poverty and dwelt among us.
We existed, within Him, from the beginning!
We also, agreed, within the Son, to be born into this temporary realm.
Whether black, Jew or gay.
A starving child in a third-world nation, or a national leader, we all agreed, we all agreed.
There is nothing perchance with the Lord.
This is deep but I feel led to put it out there for those that have an ear.
There are 6 bones in the natural ear, the Spirit is heard never here.
Instead, deep calls to deep within the awakened;
Come home prodigal Son!
Really something to dwell on David.
That could help explain a lot, like "where's God", "how could He let that happen", etc. Again, food for thought.
I think the scripture you reference above may address what you've just said. Can you think of any others? I think of "chosen/predestined in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1). Any others?
Now!
Those in position!
Overcome, as I have overcome!
Wow this is awesome, when one knows we choose this life it certainly explains so much.
We all agree in unison even those that don't know it yet.
SQ, the Father is everywhere!
The Son is everywhere!
The Spirit is everywhere!
I in You, You in Me, We in Them (John's Account)
The alabaster vessel is broken open! and the anointing is upon man, the Holy Spirit is now given and the anointing is now within!
We are HIM, and must come to, finally, IDENTIFY WITH CHRIST!
I am getting it at last! :cloud9:
There are but only two creations within to dwell.
Adam or Christ Jesus.
Adam, the flesh, was crucified with Christ, now, ALL LIVE!
It really is simple.
Thank you , Thank you , Thank you Beloved !!
Yes , the very verse you used come to mind 2 pages ago
and you are right the simplicity in Christ is amazing Mixed with faith of course :thumbsup: Them that believe and those whom still resist the TRUTH ...Hebrews 4
Promised Rest for God's People
1 God's promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. 2 For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn't share the faith of those who listened to God.[a] 3 For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said,
"In my anger I took an oath:
'They will never enter my place of rest,'"[
NLT Genesis 2
1 So the creation of the heavens and the earth and everything in them was completed. 2 On the seventh day God had finished his work of creation, so he rested[a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was the day when he rested from all his work of creation.
4 This is the account of the creation of the heavens and the earth.
THIS being the DAY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST THE 7TH AND HOLY ONE AND OUR REST IN JESUS CHRIST
in Adams death and in Christs Life :icon_flower:
(Col. 1:16-17) For by Him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are IN HEAVEN, and that are IN EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be THRONES, or DOMINIONS, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS; all things were CREATED BY HIM. and for him.
And he is BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him all things consist.
If Christ was before all things and all things were CREATED by him, how could we have existed before he created us? If he existed before we did, how could we have always existed? Even Christ was a creation of the Father but he was created before us. (Verse 15) Who is the image of the invisable God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVER CREATURE.
(Rev.1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, THE BEGINNING AND THE END.
(Rev. 3:14) The beginning of the creation of God.
CHB
Hi CHB,
QuoteIf Christ was before all things and all things were CREATED by him, how could we have existed before he created us?
The question is what exactly was the act of creating? Two options to consider:
a] We simply never in no shape or form existed before the creation mentioned in Genesis.
b] We did exist in another form (spirit) before we were created. (lowered into creation)
QuoteEven Christ was a creation of the Father but he was created before us.
QuoteIf he existed before we did, how could we have always existed?
I agree with your time line. Father -> Son -> We
So only Father can be eternal/have always existed.
But that does not disprove opion-b. Purely as an example. Father has limetles age. Son is 10 triljon years old. We are 1 biljon years old and then in Genesis lowered into creation.
So "always exited" is of the table. But there are a lot of possible ages between always existed and a few decades old.
Quote from: CHB on February 19, 2010, 06:08:53 PM
(Col. 1:16-17) For by Him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are IN HEAVEN, and that are IN EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be THRONES, or DOMINIONS, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS; all things were CREATED BY HIM. and for him.
And he is BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him all things consist.
If Christ was before all things and all things were CREATED by him, how could we have existed before he created us? If he existed before we did, how could we have always existed? Even Christ was a creation of the Father but he was created before us. (Verse 15) Who is the image of the invisable God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVER CREATURE.
(Rev.1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, THE BEGINNING AND THE END.
(Rev. 3:14) The beginning of the creation of God.
CHB
The context of all could simply be ALL things in this realm, if spiritually we consist of "God" then an aspect of us was not created but always existed and perhaps wouldn't qualify as a "thing" since it is an inherant part of God.
The bible talks about a new heaven and new earth, but there is no detail concerning it, no detail concerning our roles, or what is expected or what we can expect. I think the Bible applies to this realm of existance.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 19, 2010, 08:29:42 PM
Quote from: CHB on February 19, 2010, 06:08:53 PM
(Col. 1:16-17) For by Him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are IN HEAVEN, and that are IN EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be THRONES, or DOMINIONS, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS; all things were CREATED BY HIM. and for him.
And he is BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him all things consist.
If Christ was before all things and all things were CREATED by him, how could we have existed before he created us? If he existed before we did, how could we have always existed? Even Christ was a creation of the Father but he was created before us. (Verse 15) Who is the image of the invisable God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVER CREATURE.
(Rev.1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, THE BEGINNING AND THE END.
(Rev. 3:14) The beginning of the creation of God.
CHB
The context of all could simply be ALL things in this realm, if spiritually we consist of "God" then an aspect of us was not created but always existed and perhaps wouldn't qualify as a "thing" since it is an inherant part of God.
The bible talks about a new heaven and new earth, but there is no detail concerning it, no detail concerning our roles, or what is expected or what we can expect. I think the Bible applies to this realm of existance.
perhaps the holy thing is from the seed of the Word of God Paul and the Holy Spirit
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that
holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. :icon_flower:
Christ is not a creation of the Father.
He is the Fathers eternal Word.
JOHN'S ACCOUNT (CLV)
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not.
John 1 (Amplified Bible)
1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
2 He was present originally with God.
3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.
Quote from: Beloved Servant] on February 20, 2010, 01:01:45 AM
Christ is not a creation of the Father.
He is the Fathers eternal Word.Quote
I am just going by what I read in the Bible. Christ said, I am the first, the beginning. He also says, the beginning of the creation of God.
Quote from: Beloved Servant
JOHN'S ACCOUNT (CLV)
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not.Quote
Notice it says, IN THE BEGINNING. Christ was the beginning of creation. If something has a beginning doesn't that mean it isn't eternal? Christ was God but he wasn't God the Father.
Quote from: Beloved Servant
John 1 (Amplified Bible)
1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
2 He was present originally with God.
3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.
If something was created how could it have existed before it was created? Number 3 proves that we were made or created and came into being by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ existed before the foundation of the world, he was the first creation, the beginning, but my understanding is we did not exist before the foundation of the world. Only in the plan and mind of God did we exist.
CHB
Why do these quotes turn out like this?
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
The context of all could simply be ALL things in this realm, if spiritually we consist of "God" then an aspect of us was not created but always existed and perhaps wouldn't qualify as a "thing" since it is an inherant part of God.
Hi Paul,
Doesn't it say Christ created all things, visible and INVISABLE? I don't think invisable would be part of this realm.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on February 20, 2010, 02:08:12 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
The context of all could simply be ALL things in this realm, if spiritually we consist of "God" then an aspect of us was not created but always existed and perhaps wouldn't qualify as a "thing" since it is an inherant part of God.
Hi Paul,
Doesn't it say Christ created all things, visible and INVISABLE? I don't think invisable would be part of this realm.
CHB
I suppose you'd have to define the context for invisible.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 20, 2010, 02:12:50 AM
I suppose you'd have to define the context for invisible.
Beyond belief or knowledge :dbook:
Quote from: peacemaker on February 20, 2010, 07:25:50 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 20, 2010, 02:12:50 AM
I suppose you'd have to define the context for invisible.
Beyond belief or knowledge :dbook:
Well, in context to our realm, what is invisible? In context with Gods knowledge is there anything actually invisible? So if nothing is invisible to God, then I think the context remains in this realm.
Hi Paul,
It says, "For by him were all things created, that are IN HEAVEN, and that are IN EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISABLE".
Would you say heaven is part of this realm?
Since Paul is speaking to the saints here, it would seem that he is telling them that all these things that were created are visible and invisible to them. Or us humans.
I pray if I am wrong on this that God will show me differently. As of now I can't see that we existed before except in the plan and mind of God. I have had to change my mind on a lot of things in my lifetime when God showed me differently by his word. I would like to see some scripture showing that we pre-existed.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on February 20, 2010, 05:29:58 PM
Would you say heaven is part of this realm?
Since scripture does talk of a new heaven and new earth and the old passes away and offers no details of that new realm, I would still have to conclude that the bible is meant only for this realm of existance.
Quote
I pray if I am wrong on this that God will show me differently. As of now I can't see that we existed before except in the plan and mind of God. I have had to change my mind on a lot of things in my lifetime when God showed me differently by his word. I would like to see some scripture showing that we pre-existed.
Well, we all go through this in discussions of all natures, we all want someone to show us the exact scripture that makes the point and we all know that we are faced with the understanding that scripture leads us into knowledge that is not exactly spelled out word for word.
It is true, you will not find a scripture that explicitly says we "pre-existed" and if that causes you to continue believing what you do, so be it, but, I do not see at this point that you can be reconciled into a condition that you never were.
Quote from: CHB on February 20, 2010, 05:29:58 PM
Hi Paul,
It says, "For by him were all things created, that are IN HEAVEN, and that are IN EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISABLE".
Would you say heaven is part of this realm?
Since Paul is speaking to the saints here, it would seem that he is telling them that all these things that were created are visible and invisible to them. Or us humans.
I pray if I am wrong on this that God will show me differently. As of now I can't see that we existed before except in the plan and mind of God. I have had to change my mind on a lot of things in my lifetime when God showed me differently by his word. I would like to see some scripture showing that we pre-existed.
CHB
This is an excellent point your making
I also think that everything God has made will become new in Christ
and because the WORD OF GOD and the Spirit of God are eternal
the WORD made flesh and Paul speaks of diffent types of flesh in 1Corintains 15
and we know there are ONE SPIRIT in God . but many spirits that God made that are not of God ...
So far you have made the most valid point to me anyways .. That it come from Gods mind and heart this plan of creation though His Wisdom
seems
Wisdom is always female gendered and spoken in female pronouns and from His Image or likeness
It takes both parts to "create " "fashion"and made " these 3 things are scripture sound ......and it is about hearing
and listening to what the SPIRIT OF GOD is saying
and we know also faith comes by hearing His Voice and Wisdom , what Jesus Christ is called in the... NEW TESTAMENT the Wisdom and Power of God 1Cr 1:24 But unto them
which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Proverbs 8
Wisdom Calls for a Hearing 1 Listen as Wisdom calls out!
Hear as understanding raises her voice!
2 On the hilltop along the road,
she takes her stand at the crossroads.
3 By the gates at the entrance to the town,
on the road leading in, she cries aloud,
4 "I call to you, to all of you!
I raise my voice to all people.
5 You simple people, use good judgment.
You foolish people, show some understanding.
6 Listen to me! For I have important things to tell you.
Everything I say is right,
7 for I speak the truth
and detest every kind of deception.
8 My advice is wholesome.
There is nothing devious or crooked in it.
9 My words are plain to anyone with understanding,
clear to those with knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction rather than silver,
and knowledge rather than pure gold.
11 For wisdom is far more valuable than rubies.
Nothing you desire can compare with it
12 "I, Wisdom, live together with good judgment.
I know where to discover knowledge and discernment.
13 All who fear the Lord will hate evil.
Therefore, I hate pride and arrogance,
corruption and perverse speech.
14 Common sense and success belong to me.
Insight and strength are mine.
15 Because of me, kings reign,
and rulers make just decrees.
16 Rulers lead with my help,
and nobles make righteous judgments.
17 "I love all who love me.
Those who search will surely find me.
18 I have riches and honor,
as well as enduring wealth and justice.
19 My gifts are better than gold, even the purest gold,
my wages better than sterling silver!
20 I walk in righteousness,
in paths of justice.
21 Those who love me inherit wealth.
I will fill their treasuries.
22
"The Lord formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.
23
I was appointed in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began. 24
I was born before the oceans were created,
before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
25 Before the mountains were formed,
before the hills, I was born—
26 before he had made the earth and fields
and the first handfuls of soil.
27
I was there when he established the heavens, when he drew the horizon on the oceans.
28 I was there when he set the clouds above,
when he established springs deep in the earth.
29
I was there when he set the limits of the seas,
so they would not spread beyond their boundaries.
And when he marked off the earth's foundations,
30 I was the architect at his side.
I was his constant delight,
rejoicing always in his presence.
31 And how happy I was with the world he created;
how I rejoiced with the human family!
32 "And so, my children, listen to me,
for all who follow my ways are joyful.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise.
Don't ignore it.
34 Joyful are those who listen to me,
watching for me daily at my gates,
waiting for me outside my home!
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the Lord.
36 But those who miss me injure themselves.
All who hate me love death."
you have me thinking now lol...
I know that Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of God and power of God manifested / made known / revealed , the visible and invisable
the things of faith made real or percieved
without faith it is impossble to please God
and and faith is the things hoped for
we believe how we percive / know Him .
:icon_flower:
the only way is if we were in Christ /annointed from the beginng , this being Gods Wisdom before anything was ever made and was sent out over times/ages and His plan only to be gatherd back again into Him in the End
You just may have simplified a question I have wondered for years now ..
Scripture verses that indicate that man was NOT in, with, or of God (Spirit) before the foundation of the world.
I don't have time to type the entire verses. but I ask you to prayerfully read John 17... especially verses 5, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24
also from these verses we should be discussing Jesus' Returning to the Father.
=====
another verse to look at is Hebrews 2:10.... does it say that He is bringing many sons TO glory or He is bringing back sons who were in, with Him before the foundation of the world??????
also we need to clarify just what "reconcile" means. Strongs' does give a few meanings... most of which have the meaning of settling a dispute between two or more conflicting things. see Eph 2:15,16 and Col 1:20, 21
Rosered thanks for reminding me that there are different kinds of flesh...
Until this reminder, I was considering that the two conflicting things were the "natural" and the "spiritual" as per 1 Cor 15:44, 46... but now I see the two conflicting things as "sinful flesh" and HIS flesh.
In spirit, we are flesh of HIS flesh, and bone of HIS bones...
very brief... just wanted to get this posted ...
Francine
Hi Francine ,
Good posting ! :thumbsup:
I agree man was not in God , but made/ accomplish / work in His likeness and Image
but the Spirit within the new man Adam/ Christ annointed did come out of God and was sent
so this sinful flesh is a death sentance
the flesh of Christ is Spriit and Life
I so wonder if Job is speaking of the inner man and not so much the cursed outer man here ??
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
the new inner man is alive and strengthend by Him here but was dead /asleep /sin state of being ? awakened to His righteousness this work of Gods Spirit and Word /seed knowledge of Him ..
this puzzling to me yet .. :mblush:
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Jhn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
the work of God is LIFE and love and peace and Joy in Him :icon_flower:
Well,you must realize that He is creating ONE NEW MAN of
the two.Son of MAN[Adam/earth] SON OF GOD[Christ/Heaven]
Realizing this the scriptures speak of the REVEALING
of the SONS OF GOD,those born from above,as well as bringing
many sons to glory.drawing all men up[Adam from below]to sit
in heavenly places[Psalms 113;9]
Jesus asked to be glorified with the glory that was his BEFORE
Adam is a son of God also..dominion was given to him on the
earth, the Christ was given all things on earth and heaven
There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies;
but the splendour of the heavenly bodies is one kind and the
splendour of the earthly bodies is another. THE NEW MAN or
NEW CREATURE is the tearing down that partition of the son of
God that is of heaven from being seperated of the son of God
[Man] that is on earth.
The UNION OF BEAUTY AND BANDS IS THE ONE NEW
CREATURE OR HOLY THING THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD [THAT
WHICH ORIGINATES IN HEAVEN/GOD]COME IN FLESH[MANKIND]
Beauty for our ashes...is the divine nature that all men will be
Glorified with.
it is so hard to put in words,these things...and really no man
can reveal these things to us, only the Holy spirit can.
Blessings to all
Zec 11:7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, [even] you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves/ rod ,staff ;
the one I called Beauty,
and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
beauty Strong's H5278 - no`am
masculine nounFrom נָעֵם (H5276)
1) kindness, pleasantness, delightfulness, beauty, favour
a) delightfulness
b) symbolic name of one of two staves
c) pleasantness
Bands Strong's H2254 - chabal verb
1) to bind
a) (Qal)
1) to bind
2) to take a pledge, lay to pledge
a) (Qal) to hold by a pledge, take in pledge, hold in pledge
b) (Niphal) to give a pledge, become pledged
3) to destroy, spoil, deal corruptly, offend
a) (Qal) to spoil, corrupt, offend
b) (Niphal) to be ruined
c) (Piel) to destroy, ruin
d) (Pual) to be ruined, be broken
4) to bring forth, travail
one of the two ways of working in this , after reading this chapter :2c:
Rosered: re: Job 33:4
Job, chapters 32 through 37 are the words of Elihu...
I won't be reading/posting to Tentmaker for a few weeks. I just dropped in a few times these past three days... and felt a need to post to Returning to the Father.
Francine
The issue of our pre-existance still remains in one word in scripture.
Quote
G605 apokatastasis ap-ok-at-as'-tas-is
from G600;
reconstitution:--restitution.
Of what nature is this word concerning something we have never been?
I personally have no problem with the idea of pre-existance, I think in fact the discussion would be more prudent concerning of what nature was our prexistance.
For instance.....
Ford built the 1969 Mach1 Mustang and there are people who spend lots of time and money restoring these cars. When Ford built them, they were not restoring them.
However, this then brings in another issue. There are people who restore these cars that change the original configuration and in essence make the cars better and more reliable than they were from the factory.
Is this technically being restored? Should another word be used? Did we pre-exist in some form and are being reconstituted to something greater? Is that possible within the use of this term?
EXACTLY!
SO WILL IT BE WITH THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
the body that is sown is perishable,it is raised imperishable
it is sown in dishonour,it is raised in glory
it is sown in weakness,it is raised in power
it is sown a natural body[first Adam]
it is raised a spiritual body[last Adam became a life-giving
spirit/CHRIST]
IT IS WRITTEN[by the finger of God]; The FIRST MAN ADAM
BECAME A LIVING BEING,
THE LAST ADAM A LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT
I AM THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE FIRST AND THE LAST
THE BEGINNING AND THE END
Paul,
Re: ... make the cars better and more reliable than they were from the factory
Re: ...reconstituted to something greater
"Restoration" in the context of changing/making something better
The book of Hebrews would agree... "better" appears 12 times
"Restitution in the context of returning something to its rightful owner (God, Creator, Father) we are His workmanship... Restitution of all things... all in all speaks to this...
but neither restoration nor restitution necessarily require our pre-existence.
Perhaps we need to take another look at "man created in the image and likeness of God" but as I mentioned to Rosered, I won't be reading/posting to Tentmaker for a few weeks... but go ahead and start another thread on pre-existence. I will look forward to reading the posts to it when I get back.
Francine
Is there yet any seed in the barn...?
where did God sow that HOLY THING?
seed brings forth after it's kind?
what does the parable of the wheat and tares show?
who sowed the good seed? who sowed the tares/wicked?
where is the wheat gathered? where did the wheat come
from? Does the WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH RETURN
TO HIM VOID? Does the promised seed raise up wheat?
Can a kernal of wheat bear fruit to heaven,less it fall to the
earth and die?
Not trying to overwhem or even
convince you,Francine. :HeartThrob:
Just bearing wittness
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 20, 2010, 02:22:31 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on February 20, 2010, 07:25:50 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 20, 2010, 02:12:50 AM
I suppose you'd have to define the context for invisible.
Beyond belief or knowledge :dbook:
Well, in context to our realm, what is invisible?
Reality is merely an illusion, although an extremely persistent one, as the mind tends to see things from the beginning to its end producing a false impression; not from the end to the very beginning.
QuoteIn context with Gods knowledge is there anything actually invisible? So if nothing is invisible to God, then I think the context remains in this realm.
Everything IS done on earth, as it IS IN HEAVEN, however, we track everything within the frame work of duality and time.
All There IS, is beyond the linear content, Not the non-linear context? There is actually no beginning or end, as the SPIRIT
always IS AND WILL BE.
"There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed."This is not in disagreement, only an expression because language is finite.
peacemaker
:cloud9: Thought I'd throw this out here.......In the BEGINNING, God created the heavens and the earth. Beginning there runs into a meaning of, "firstfruits".
So now read it this way, "In the firstfruits, God created the heavens and the earth." You can apply these two elements as spirit and soul, or mind of Christ and the glorified body.
Heaven is the substance of the Spirit of Christ. Heaven means literally, "something HEAVED UP", like a mountain. The mountain of the Lord, IS Christ.
A heave offering was lifted up from/above the shoulders, just like you took a sheep and lifted it straight up = the perpendicular of the cross, and an offering that had blood. It paints a picture of the one lost He goes after and raises (heaves) him up.
A wave offering is the horizontal of the cross and was the firstfruits of grain. The two motions together make the sign of the cross.
We all came here with the knowledge of who we were in Him, but the carnal mind is as a veil of forgetfulness that must be rent over time thru the washing of the Word.
We were one with Him from the foundation of the world, not AS HIM, but one with Him as a man is joined to his wife and they are counted as one flesh. The New Agers proclaim themselves Christ and are in error, because their equation is essentially 1 = 1, instead of 1+1 = 1.
It is taking His glory unto themselves, ie. vain glory, lacking of His substance, because He will not give His glory unto another (image). Blessings...
Oh! Blessed Cardinal!
I knew you had this and have been so long waiting for your appearing.
My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken Me?
In the beginning: Elohim
It is finished: Elohim
My Family
My Family
"One times One equals One."
Regardless of how many times it is multiplied NO ONE WILL BE LOST 0.99999999999peacemaker
Quote from: Cardinal on February 24, 2010, 02:33:56 AM
:cloud9: Thought I'd throw this out here.......In the BEGINNING, God created the heavens and the earth. Beginning there runs into a meaning of, "firstfruits".
So now read it this way, "In the firstfruits, God created the heavens and the earth." You can apply these two elements as spirit and soul, or mind of Christ and the glorified body.
I think it should be firstfruit (without the s). Remember the post about the "image" being more like the "outline" of Jesus?
And of course Jesus is the only firstfruit that was created before the foundation of the earth.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 24, 2010, 09:21:14 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on February 24, 2010, 02:33:56 AM
:cloud9: Thought I'd throw this out here.......In the BEGINNING, God created the heavens and the earth. Beginning there runs into a meaning of, "firstfruits".
So now read it this way, "In the firstfruits, God created the heavens and the earth." You can apply these two elements as spirit and soul, or mind of Christ and the glorified body.
I think it should be firstfruit (without the s). Remember the post about the "image" being more like the "outline" of Jesus?
And of course Jesus is the only firstfruit that was created before the foundation of the earth.
WW,
This is the way I see it also.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 24, 2010, 09:21:14 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on February 24, 2010, 02:33:56 AM
:cloud9: Thought I'd throw this out here.......In the BEGINNING, God created the heavens and the earth. Beginning there runs into a meaning of, "firstfruits".
So now read it this way, "In the firstfruits, God created the heavens and the earth." You can apply these two elements as spirit and soul, or mind of Christ and the glorified body.
I think it should be firstfruit (without the s). Remember the post about the "image" being more like the "outline" of Jesus?
And of course Jesus is the only firstfruit that was created before the foundation of the earth.
:cloud9: Hi WW......a few more thoughts on that......the risen Christ is the true substance of faith, of things not seen (while in the flesh/grave).
The Father's faith joined with His, is the "same spirit", that if it dwells in you, will raise YOU from the death of this fleshly grave we are residing in until the resurrection of HIM, in us.
We resurrect AS a member of HIS SPIRITUAL MANY-MEMBERED BODY, which is the SAME BODY that we have ALWAYS been one with from the foundation of the world, the glory He prayed for us to have just as the Father and He were one.
This is why when He arose, saints arose with Him. If the Head rises, the body must also. Because He subjected Himself to His Head, then the faith of the greater (the Father) can come into play.
It's the same principle as in a King and His subjects. If the subjects come into agreement with the words of the King concerning His kingdom authority, then the benefits established by the WORD of that King, can manifest to the subjects.
He SPOKE the worlds into being, and by His Word (which is the espressed purpose of His will) mixed with His nature of faith are they established.
Additionally, the waters above the firmament and the waters below the firmament were ONE to begin with and He divided them. Water speaks of a flow of the spirit, and dividing them does not change the innate characteristics of the spirit, which is why the spirit goes back to the One who sent it, and why Christ is the light of all men that come into the world. Blessings....
willieH: Hi Dallas... :hithere:
Haven't read the entire thread, and am just "jumpin' in" here... :blush:
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:32:48 AM
Genesis 2:7 "Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
We didn't become alive until creation.
I disagree with this statement bro... we did not BECOME "alive" at creation, we became, "living SOULS" at Creation... :dontknow:
FLESHLY MEN [in ADAM] are
not the Sons of God (but are eventually given the POWER to become/return to being the SONS they have ALWAYS BEEN) --
Luke 15:11-32The SONS of GOD are "gods" --
Psalm 82:6 -- John 10:34 [in
CHRIST]...
not MEN... the SONS of GOD "
became" men... to LEARN the
knowledge of GOOD and EVIL... that GOD
BE, ...
ALL in ALL...
MEN are temporal... the SONS of GOD are ETERNAL and are that which GOD is COMPOSED OF... His BODY and His TEMPLE... in which HE DWELLS!
Let me state that we are NOT "gods" because of ourselves in any way... we are "gods" because (1) HE SAYS we are... and (2) Because HE has decided we are... :bowing:
YHVHCHRIST is an UNCHANGING entity --
Heb 13:8 -- and WE are members of HIS BODY... which means that WE are an UNCHANGING entity WITH HIM, for we are WITH Him in the Father...
We [SONS of GOD] BECAME men... we could not
BECOME men, unless the "we" aspect was ALREADY present...
You my friend, are a MAN which can
BECOME an "doctor" due to KNOWLEDGE GAINED... or
BECOME a "thief" due to KNOWLEDGE GAINED... etc.
Prior to either, ...you WERE still a man, and yet, NOT an "doctor" or a "thief" prior to
BECOMING these things due to gaining via EXPERIENCE, ...the KNOWLEDGE of them.
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:32:48 AMMan wasn't a spirit before hand needing a husk for our spirit to find a vehicle in which to travel this physical plane. If you also look at the scripture God breathed the gift of life into the body.
The "spirit" that GOD breathed into each of us, is the "WHO" in HIM, that we REALLY
ARE, bro!
In order to "BE" a part of GOD (HE ...BEING... ALL in ALL), and GOD is an UNCHANGING entity... then How can WE -- BEING -- the ALL that HE is "IN" -- BE -- (as portions of HIS makeup/body)... something that HAS BEGINNING?
REASON demands that, the COMPOSITION [SONS] of something [GOD] which has NOT BEGINNING and IS UNCHANGING, must have NO BEGINNING, and BE UNCHANGING as well...
The KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil is not a CREATION... it is an INHERENT essence of WHO and WHAT God ...IS... and that WHO and WHAT is being REVEALED to that which HE calls, His SONS and His BODY...
I have used this example before... hopefully it will convey to you how I see this...
EXAMPLE:Let us say that DRY = GOOD and RIGHTEOUSNESS and LIFE
Let us also say that WET = EVIL, SIN and DEATH
Let us further say that WE are the [eternal] BODY of CHRIST... and we are IN the ETERNAL setting... This setting is ETERNALLY DRY... Well... one day GOD gathers us ALL together, and says to ALL of us... "There is something called WET"... and upon this announcement we, not having the KNOWLEDGE of "WET" for we are inherently DRY... remain in a QUANDARY which is devoid of UNDERSTANDING (lacking KNOWLEDGE)... For we do not even KNOW, that the state of DRY is "GOOD"... for there is nothing to compare it to!
GOD does not want His SONS, whom He FOREVER loves, to be devoid of Himself in ANY way, so He decides that He shall REVEAL the KNOWLEDGE of "DRY and WET" according to HIS DIVINE REVELATION agenda...
He then communicates to us that, even though we shall RETURN to DRYNESS, ...in revealing HIS LIVING KNOWLEDGE of DRY and WET... we shall BECOME -- "WET"
He then creates a scenario which is ISOLATED from the ETERNAL setting... (the Creation)... To this, in anticipation, we ALL [all SONS] SHOUT for JOY! -- Job 38:7
One by One... He places us ALL into the "WET" scenario to GAIN the knowledge of it, by experiencing it... then... One by One... He removes us from being WET...
Though we RETURN to, and remain FOREVER "DRY" after this LEARNING experience, we NOW KNOW what the TWO are ["DRY and WET"], and REJOICE and praise Him FOREVER... That in our DRYNESS, we can FOREVER appreciate it by the comparitive KNOWLEDGE we NOW have -- to WETNESS...
As the UNCOMFORTABLE and PERILOUS experience of "WET" has displayed to us, by the KNOWLEDGE we have gained of it... serves FOREVER to MAGNIFY the COMFORTABLE and SAFE state of "DRY" in which YHVH GOD in His beautiful, and LOVING ETERNAL WISDOM has given us to BE... :bgdance:
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:32:48 AMThe living condition was empowered, turned on, activated, otherwise had a start. It doesn't say God made the man from the ground and lead a spirit into it, or gave it to a spirit, or filled it with a spirit.
It says, the spirit of God gave man life. You recieved life through the spirit, you didn't have spirit or exsist as spirit until life was breathed from THE SPIRIT.
A-HA! :laughing7: This is my point! GOD never changes, and GOD therefore ...IS... ALL in ALL... Time does not afford GOD something that He did NOT HAVE prior to the creation of time...
My belief is this... the
WORD made everything that was made --
John 1:3 -- and the
WORD does not CHANGE either! --
Heb 13:8 -- so EVERTHING that was MADE was already IN the
WORD and is IN and proceeds FROM, the HEART of
YHVH... and therefore HAD NO "STARTING or BEGINNING".
The "beginning" was not something that had a BEGINNING it was something that BEGAN the REVELATION of that which ALREADY IS... the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which IS contained in the
WORD which does NOT CHANGE! And which ALWAYS IS as it IS...
The biggest HURDLE in the SPIRIT is found in the observer as observing that which is "MADE" as having a BEGINNING... which would mean that something within the
WORD [contained in the ETERNAL FOREKNOWLEDGE of
YHVH] which has NO BEGINNING... actually "BEGAN" something from it.
The
WORD which "MADE or CREATED" all things, really means He REVEALED things which were ALREADY present in Him... for the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD which is seen and contained
IN the
WORD had from ETERNAL perspective, already DECLARED the END from BEFORE the
BEGINNING even was manifest, and the
END (which had yet to occur), was where His REVELATION started! ...and called those things (all of time and creation) which "were NOT" [the creation in the manifestation of TIME] as though they "were" [already a "done deal"!]--
Rom 4:17 Why? Because the BEGINNING [alpha] and the END [omega] are
both IN JESUS CHRIST, which is BOTH simulataneously... and which has NEITHER of these characteristics in the ETERNAL... :laughing7:
That you or I -- as FINITES, observe something, does not make that which is observed, manifest... we are only observing that which IS in the permanent ETERNAL KNOWLEDGE of GOD, which is manifest BY HIM, before us [in varying moments of time], to observe.
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:32:48 AMThe rehma of God, went out from Him and thusly empowered the body.
Again... each SON is both "learning" and "partaking" of the REVELATION of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of
YHVH God, of GOOD and EVIL...
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:32:48 AMUnless you think God's spirit is a conglomerate of mankinds spirits? Then that's a whole other issue, and I would beable to know you are really not interested in truth but in vain philosophy, emphasizing imagination over straight forward thinking.
The very same can be said of your observation, brother Dallas... this type of determination can only be using ones own observation as the measure of another.
Is it more stable IMO, to present ones view, and then leave it up to God note and conclude the TRUTH in the hearts of others. :dontknow:
GOD notes that He does NOT CHANGE --
Mal 3:6 -- and also notes to
BE "ALL in ALL" --
1 Cor 15:28That
YHVH does NOT BECOME other than He ALWAYS ...IS... means that the "
ALL" [Himself] that He IS Himself --- and the ALL that He is ...IN... [His SONS] are ETERNAL UNCHANGING, PERFECT and COMPLETE states of both... which have ALWAYS BEEN... and are UNCHANGING...
The word "when" in --
1 Cor 15:28 -- is a NOW designation... for GOD is a being which is ALWAYS in
NOW...
The FINITE mind will determine that "when" in this verse is "when time is completely elapsed", ...however, that does not coincide with the END as the BEGINNING of God's Declaration of Time... :mshock:
The END ...IS... the BEGINNING, and the BEGINNING ...IS... the END!
CHRIST ...IS... the ALPHA
and the OMEGA...
That WE are bound to and IN time... does not keep
YHVH from BEING ALL in ALL... for the consumation of TIME is riding upon the ETERNAL clock not vice-versa... The ETERNAL being IN PLACE before during and after TIME is within its MOVING course.
Hope that doesn't sound confusing... exactly what ones thoughts are, at times... hard to put into words :mblush:
Quote from: Dallas on February 15, 2010, 09:32:48 AMI'm really not trying to be "all up on myself, or a know it all" I will however talk and exlain the things that are plainly obvious and need to be said, maybe to help to keep things from floating away into all mysticism.
You presently have a viewpoint which GOD has DECLARED that YOU shall have presently... Just as "ET'ers" presently have a viewpoint which GOD has DECLARED that THEY shall have... as do I... as does everyone else...
We are
ALL either upon the LEARNING curve of God, ...growing in the "SOIL" of His
WORD as we discover its WONDEROUS BURIED --
Matt 13:44 -- and HIDDEN
TREASURE --
Prov 25:2 --
OR We are become [know-it-alls] which are STAGNATING amidst the VANITY of our own "present understanding" --
Prov 16:25 -- failing to seek and to grasp the wisdom that GOD has something NEW which we do
not KNOW
today... will surely be found
tomorrow, if we keep looking! :winkgrin:
Sometimes tomorrow contains, a discovery of an entirely NEW SPIRITUAL perspective or at times, we discover CORRECTION of OLD and CARNAL ones...
The inability to continue to LEARN, is essentially the PRIDEFUL dilemma which befalls MOST of "christianity"... and is the INIQUITY which they are guilty of:
Matt 7:22-23A viewpoint must align with
REASON in order to be TRUE, otherwise God's
WORD would not CALL us to REASON --
Isaiah 1:18 -- and as we enter into REASON with Him, does the garbage of ourselves [CRIMSON in the SINFUL experience which resultant cost, was the BLOOD of the Savior], fall to the wayside... and become as "SNOW"...
Within our FINITE individual, flesh encumbered humanity... is found an INCOMPLETE observation emerging from each one of us which is along the pathway of learning, misaligned with
REASON in this place or that, or possibly many places... :dontknow:
That is why He calls us to search with our WHOLE [all of our] "Heart" --
Jer 29:13 -- This is not something that is ever done in a given moment, ...rather, is done within the dedication and sacrifice of self, during the course of a LIFETIME... :happy3:
Only ONE "knows" it all... and that is the ONLY TRUE God, ...
YHVH GOD... the rest, await completion... which is "where" we shall arrive upon our return to Him... where HE
IS --- ALL
in ALL...
:Peace:
...willieH :cloud9: