Has there ever been here a discussion or attempt to make a list of all the reasons for believing in Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ? If not, let's start one right here. Then I'll collect all the reasons and turn it into an article. And if one already exists, someone please direct me to it. Thanks, Gary Amirault.
I'll start the list. Let's keep the answers pithy, short, clear and to the point.
Love Never Fails. 1 Cor. 13:8
Nothing is impossible with God. Mat. 19:26
God commands us to pray for all people. Why command Christians to pray for people if He plans to send them to the eternal incinerator? 1 Tim. 2:1-6
Jesus came to save the world. If He misses a single soul, He can't be the "savior of the world." 1 John 4:14 John 12:32 John 4:42
Is it "just" to consign someone to eternal punishment for finite crimes or for simply being born into a world of sin? No one was ever asked whether they wanted to be born into a world of sin and death from which very few will ever escape according to traditional Christianity.
1 Timothy 2 (Amplified Bible)
1 FIRST OF all, then, I admonish and urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men,
2 For kings and all who are in positions of authority or high responsibility, that [outwardly] we may pass a quiet and undisturbed life [and inwardly] a peaceable one in all godliness and reverence and seriousness in every way.
3 For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior,
4 Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.
5 For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all [people, a fact that was] attested to at the right and proper time.
Quote from: Gary Amirault on August 25, 2009, 08:32:58 PM
And if one already exists, someone please direct me to it.
List: http://haroldlovelace.com/lovelacelist.php
John 12 (Amplified Bible)
32 And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw and attract all men [Gentiles as well as Jews] to Myself.
Christ ransomed all mankind (1 Timothy 2:6). Based upon that, God must save all mankind just based upon God's own laws of the ransom (1 Timothy 2:4).
Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
This post has been up for over a month and this is all board members could come up with? Five responses? :dontknow:Come on folks, get those fingers typing. :bgdance:
How can anyone claim to have salvation over a child who has been kidnapped at the age of 7 or 8, trained to kill and become a soldier and dies at the age of 18. Those people who proclaim they will have no emotion watching their loved ones or anyone in torture have the same mentality as those who are kidnapping these children to be soldiers.
I cant find a verse where we are suppose to stop loving people or stop having compassion for anyone, even if they are being tormented.
Without bible verses it is very obvious all will be saved since we were not all given the same chance to become believers as all others in this world and as those in the time past. I shudder to think if those people in the first verse get to have world domination over others.
Faith
Quote from: Faith on October 04, 2009, 12:25:51 AM
How can anyone claim to have salvation over a child who has been kidnapped at the age of 7 or 8, trained to kill and become a soldier and dies at the age of 18. Those people who proclaim they will have no emotion watching their loved ones or anyone in torture have the same mentality as those who are kidnapping these children to be soldiers.
Worse because the hell of the children ends after 10 years. And the kidnappers want their kids to succeed.
I believe it and have done for a long time because i believe thats what Jesus would have wanted...Whenever ive ever been close to Jesus in my thoughts and actions (as close as a sinner like me can get), hurting anyone is the last thought on my mind...Helping them maybe, encourageing them, loving them...but never burning anyone in a lake forever! Its actually ridicoulous.
Quote from: Gary Amirault on August 25, 2009, 08:32:58 PM
Has there ever been here a discussion or attempt to make a list of all the reasons for believing in Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ? If not, let's start one right here. Then I'll collect all the reasons and turn it into an article. And if one already exists, someone please direct me to it. Thanks, Gary Amirault.
I'll start the list. Let's keep the answers pithy, short, clear and to the point.
1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
God burns the sins not the sinner.
Quote from: Gary Amirault on October 03, 2009, 10:08:16 PM
This post has been up for over a month and this is all board members could come up with? Five responses? :dontknow:Come on folks, get those fingers typing. :bgdance:
Hi Gary,
I think there are a couple good lists right here in the scholar's corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/ReconciliationScriptures.html
I know many such verses are discussed here in many posts, perhaps people didn't see your post or didn't want to repeat it all here. I know I just saw your post. Anyway, here are some of my favorite reasons for believing in UR:
God is Love (1 John 4:8). 1 Cor 13 tells us Love is patient, kind, always protecting, not keeping a record of wrongs.... therefore God is also patient, kind, protecting and not keeping a record of wrongs. But how can God be any of these things if He gives up on a man and allows or purposes that man to be tormented for eternity (or annihilated)?
God wills and desires all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), and all His desires will be achieved (Isaiah 55:11, Isaiah 46:10, Job 23:13), so He will accomplish his desire and will to save all men!
But will some still reject Christ even though God clearly desires and wills it (and can achieve His will)? NO, all will swear
allegiance (Check Isaiah 45:23 in the NASB). Swearing
allegiance is a willing oath of loyalty, this is no forced confession. All will willingly and gladly come to Christ, and God desires it be so, therefore it will be so.
God is unchanging. He does not change his mind like a man, nor does He change His plan nor purpose. Therefore He will continue to save people after they have already died, because that is His desire: to save all mankind.
Titus 2:11 in the CEV puts it bluntly: "
God has shown us how kind he is by coming to save all people." How can you argue with that? God is so kind that He comes to save all people!
Rev 15:4 asks the rhetorical question "Who will not fear the Lord?" And the answer is no one. In Psalm 145:19 it tells us "
He fulfills the desires of those who fear him; he hears their cry and saves them." Did you catch it? God
saves those who fear Him, and Rev 15:4 tells us ALL will one day fear Him.
Gen 28:14 tells us "All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring" (referring to Abraham's seed). Well how much of a blessing is it if I find out my great grandmother is burning for eternity while I am "blessed" in heaven?
Eph 1:9-10 gives us a glimpse of God's plan which has been hidden from most people (for ages). The amplified version explains it well:
Eph 1:9 Making known to us the mystery (secret) of His will (of His plan, of His purpose). [And it is this:] In accordance with His good pleasure (His merciful intention) which He had previously purposed and set forth in [a]Him,
10 [He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth.
Read that with an open mind and you will see God's plan of UR has indeed been kept secret, but is now being revealed to a few people (the "elect" identified in Eph 1:5). And God's amazing plan is this: to UNIFY ALL THINGS IN CHRIST! This include everyone, not just the "elect" who understand it now, but every single human who has existed.
Some will say God's wrath is eternal because God IS WRATH (therefore there must be an eternal hell) as well as also beleiving GOD IS LOVE. That is a contradictory statement. God is love, but God is not wrath. He only
shows wrath, when it is required to ultimately meet His loving purpose to unify all things in Christ. God's wrath will end. The proof is in Rev 15:1 and other verses (Isa 57:16, Mic 7:18, etc). Again read Rev 15:1 in the Amplified version so it is crystal clear:
Rev 15:1 There were seven angels bringing seven plagues (afflictions, calamities), which are the last, for with them
God's wrath (indignation) is completely expressed [reaches its climax and is ended].
Let me repeat it again if you missed it: God's wrath is completetely expressed here and then IS ENDED!
Of course we can't forget 1 Tim 4:10 which tells us God is the savior of all men, but those who believe are saved in a special way (they get to understand His secret plan to unify all things in Christ, and they get to know God FIRST). Col 1:20 tells us God is reconciling the world, other verses say Jesus is the savior of the world, takes away the sins of the world, and is the atoning sacrifice for the world. Some might protest and say "world" doesn't mean "all people", but if Jesus doesn't take away the sins of the world, then some sin will be left in existence FOREVER. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil (which is SIN), but He failed miserably IF SOME SINS EXIST FOREVER.
I could go on and on but its all good news. The whole bible is all good news. Even the fact that God creates and allows evil - that is still good news in the long run because it teaches people how to be good and how to love. Evil will be abolished eventually, but the goodness and love will last forever. Its good news for ALL people, just like Luke 2:10 says!
I love the story of Jonah because to me, Jonah is like a modern day hell preaching Christian...Jonah knew God was good so he didnt preach where God told him too, he wanted to see them suffer, but God was greater....
(I've highlighted the parts that stand out to me).
Jonah 4
Jonah's Anger at the Lord 's Compassion
1 But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."
4 But the LORD replied, "Have you any right to be angry?"
5 Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the LORD God provided a vine and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the vine. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the vine so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah's head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, "It would be better for me to die than to live."
9 But God said to Jonah, "Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?"
"I do," he said. "I am angry enough to die."
10 But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?"
Jesus would have to be in hell burning now in order to save anyone if that is our punishment for not repenting and believing in him.
If hell is our punishment, then that debt hasn't been paid for. Shouldn't that mean no one will be saved?
The salvation of all is the only thing that makes any sense, that is why I believe it.
(Rev. 5:13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth,and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power,be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
CHB
Love indeed never fails. God is Love and Mercy and Justice and Salvation. I am one who is here to understand this view but I have questions. I am not trying to bait or hurt anyone. I don't want to be a Pharisee. I was drawn to this site after praying in the Holy Spirit. I really want to know how Universalism is biblical. I have been reading posts on the Tentmaker site. I look to sharpen my face like you. I watched the videos (forgot the site) and sent them to my parents. Here is my question.
Doesn't the belief in Universalism make Jesus sacrifice unnecessary? The "condition" is always that we receive the calling of God and believe in Jesus (1John 4..."test the inspired expression to see if it is true..."). He gives us faith if we ask for it but we must allow it. The Jewish nation and the Law pointed to the need for a redeemer and I believe we are saved by Yahshua's sacrifice and my acceptance of it. I don't believe in a place of torment either, but death (the grave) and resurrection of All those in the tombs so that All are given a chance to receive Jesus or reject Him. That gives us a choice. You can offer me a gift and I can refuse it. If there is no choice and even Satan gets to rebel and be forgiven, what would prevent future rebellion? Are we programmed to obey? Is God just currently subjecting us all to futility? I really don't understand. Please help me if this is posted in the wrong spot too. Lydia
Quote from: Lydiah on November 09, 2009, 12:42:47 AMDoesn't the belief in Universalism make Jesus sacrifice unnecessary?
No. That's why it is CHRISTian universalism.
QuoteI don't believe in a place of torment either, but death (the grave) and resurrection of All those in the tombs so that All are given a chance to receive Jesus or reject Him.
It's a bit how you define chance perhaps; but it isn't really a chance but a fact that all will (eventually) receive Jesus.
God drags all man to Him. He's not begging.
Joh_6:44 - No one can come to Him unless He draws them. You can't "chose" to follow Him.
QuoteThat gives us a choice. You can offer me a gift and I can refuse it.
That's a often heard ET argument. Boils down to this: 100% gets the offer. 5% accept it. 95% goes to hell because they choose eternal torture.
QuoteIf there is no choice and even Satan gets to rebel and be forgiven, what would prevent future rebellion?
Did satan rebel? He was a murderer from the
beginning. Sounds he was always evil.
QuoteAre we programmed to obey? Is God just currently subjecting us all to futility? I really don't understand.
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Lydia: You asked some questions about free will, satan, fallen angels etc.
It's a very long article but answers all/many of your questions I think. I also think many on this forum agree with most of the article.
Lake of Fire Series halfway down teh page: http://bible-truths.com/
Thank you I will look at it :>). It just seems that throughout the Word, we are told that God will save us all IF we choose to serve Him and accept His Son. I will read about the demons and Satan and ponder and pray in the Spirit. Thank you for your response. Lydia
"Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay."
This brought me up short in a hurry - It is where the original flaw in reason is inserted in my view. It is a direct quote from an article on the site you sent me (bible truths). Adam and Eve were made PERFECT, SATAN was also perfect. Ezekiel 28:15 "You were perfect in your ways, from the day you were created, until unrighteous was found in you." Satan made a choice, Adam and Eve were also perfect and made a choice. Yahweh did not will them to sin. They chose to do it. For God to be love, He must give us the right to choose him. Otherwise we are animals following an instinct. We can not love without choice. That made rebellion a possibility. Gods Sovereignty was challenged. The case against Him proffered by Satan (false accusation, calling God a liar) had to be resolved. Satan told them (Adam and Eve) Yahweh was a liar. Satan said they would be like Him if they ate from the tree God restricted them from. He only put the tree there to allow them a choice to obey or not. He gave them everything they could possibly want and only the one restriction to give them a chance to love Him by keeping His commandment. Remember the scripture in 1John..."for this is what the love of God means..that you keep my commandments..." It was true in the Garden as well. What did Yahweh tell them? If you eat from the tree (He said not to) you will positively die...Period. He never said they would burn in Hellfire, but they would cease to exist. I believe they went to the second death Rev. 21:8 because they were perfect and chose to disobey. That is why Satan also goes to the second death. All men who died in sin because they were born in sin (imperfection) get a second chance. But this shows that even perfect humans and angels can choose to rebel. Yahweh offers salvation to everyone born to our original parents, but they must do their part. Choose Life. Lydiah
The way I read it Father doesn't save anyone. His Son is taking care of that task.
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
=> God gives full control to Jesus
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
=> The task of Jesus is to give eternal life to all things (=mankind)
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
=>And Jesus accomplishes His task
Noticed the word 'shall'. Not possibly, maybe, hopes to, etc
Colossians 1:19-20 or it pleased the Father .... to reconcile all things unto himself (=God); by him,
=> reconcile = bring back a former state of harmony => 95% of humanity in hell isn't a (former) state of harmony.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy;
=> Mercy is given to the wicked.
Isaiah 1:18 .... though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
=> Shall means it will happen. It's what God wants. Man has no choice in this matter.
=> White and wool represent a pure soul.
=> All with a pure soul will enter Heaven
Isaiah 25:6-8 .... make unto all people a feast of fat things....And he will destroy .... the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces....
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh(=by force) away the sin of the world.
John 3:17 God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world. (world=mankind)
John 4:42 .... and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Luke 2:10 ... Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
=> Joy in hell?
Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Matthew 18:11 for the Son of Man did come to save the lost.
Psalm 65:2-3 ... all people approach you. Our record of sins overwhelms me, but you forgive our acts of rebellion.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Þ Including calls from hell.
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 .... God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time
1 Timothy 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Quote from: Lydiah
It just seems that throughout the Word, we are told that God will save us all IF we choose to serve Him and accept His Son.
Hi Lydiah,
If it is up to us to choose, serve, and accept Christ in order to gain salvation, then salvation would not be of grace but our works. Salvation would depend on us, not Christ. Salvation would be in our hands, not Christ's, if the above were true.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 14, 2009, 03:22:31 AM
Quote from: Lydiah
It just seems that throughout the Word, we are told that God will save us all IF we choose to serve Him and accept His Son.
Hi Lydiah,
If it is up to us to choose, serve, and accept Christ in order to gain salvation, then salvation would not be of grace but our works. Salvation would depend on us, not Christ. Salvation would be in our hands, not Christ's, if the above were true.
CHB
It sounds good but it never answers what about the rest of God's word that tells us that some choose not to be saved? Answer that question so I can understand. Did God just have the Spirit have men right down all that to confuse us??
there one thing I am confused with:
"Nothing is impossible to God"
and
"Without faith is impossible to please God"
I thought "NOTHING" is impossble to God, these two seem to contriction to each other?
I am not confused by it. Nothing he chooses to do is impossible. I don't think He chooses to negate your choice to choose or reject Him. For centuries people have quoted these scriptures that seem to contradict to make a case for not believing the bible. No matter how many scriptures are quoted to negate the verses that clearly show that some will rebel (not to mention the angels that have already done so), no one has given me an answer to what you do with the myriad of scripture that says that some will choose death (*white wings keeps mentioning hell though I have said I believe in eternal death NOT HELLFIRE). This appears to be filibuster on UR not discussion.
The good news is if I am incorrect, it doesn't matter anyway :>) Right? "It's all good" according to UR. I can serve Buddha have Idols be a Satan worshiper and in the end, it won't matter, right? I will be saved no matter what I do. That sounds dangerously like Hebrews 10:28 "Think how much worse the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, who treated as something common the blood of the covenant.." As you most likely know in the scriptures it tells us that we can sin against the Father and the Son, but if we sin against the Holy Spirit, we can't be forgiven in this life or the next.. How does UR explain that? There are too many holes in this that I can not reconcile in light of the Word of God. p.s. The Word of God is God, yes? Therefore it is an interchangeable truth that Yah is salvation, through the Word of Yah (Yahshua) we are reconciled to Yah HalleluYah! Lydia
Quote from: Lydiah on November 14, 2009, 07:11:23 PM
I am not confused by it. Nothing he chooses to do is impossible. I don't think He chooses to negate your choice to choose or reject Him. For centuries people have quoted these scriptures that seem to contradict to make a case for not believing the bible. No matter how many scriptures are quoted to negate the verses that clearly show that some will rebel (not to mention the angels that have already done so), no one has given me an answer to what you do with the myriad of scripture that says that some will choose death (*white wings keeps mentioning hell though I have said I believe in eternal death NOT HELLFIRE). This appears to be filibuster on UR not discussion.
The good news is if I am incorrect, it doesn't matter anyway :>) Right? "It's all good" according to UR. I can serve Buddha have Idols be a Satan worshiper and in the end, it won't matter, right? I will be saved no matter what I do. That sounds dangerously like Hebrews 10:28 "Think how much worse the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, who treated as something common the blood of the covenant.." As you most likely know in the scriptures it tells us that we can sin against the Father and the Son, but if we sin against the Holy Spirit, we can't be forgiven in this life or the next.. How does UR explain that? There are too many holes in this that I can not reconcile in light of the Word of God. p.s. The Word of God is God, yes? Therefore it is an interchangeable truth that Yah is salvation, through the Word of Yah (Yahshua) we are reconciled to Yah HalleluYah! Lydia
Yes, there is death, including the death of everything that's not of God. Our works not of Him burned, the flesh destroyed so the spirit will be saved (I Cor. 5:5)
If you serve Buddha and worship Satan, then #1, your heart's not yet right, you don't love the Father or His Son, and those things will be corrected, "as by fire". You will stand before Him and suffer shame and loss. You will go through a process of discipline that will be painful, it will test and purge you until you reach the place of falling at His feet and confessing Him as Lord.
The scripture of "blashemy won't be forgiven..." is correctly translated
age, not life.
There's much to learn, and I believe these are but a few of the things to be searched out, to have revealed to us. (Prov. 25:2).
Quote from: Lydiah on November 14, 2009, 07:11:23 PM
white wings keeps mentioning hell though I have said I believe in eternal death NOT HELLFIRE). This appears to be filibuster on UR not discussion
Filibuster? Don't let me laugh. Get that beam out of your eye. It's you peddling your doctrine and tacticly ignoring every answer given.
QuoteThe good news is if I am incorrect,
Yes, you are. (as you could have know by reading a few replies.
Quoteit doesn't matter anyway :>) Right? "It's all good" according to UR. I can serve Buddha have Idols be a Satan worshiper and in the end, it won't matter, right?
Wrong. You are just as wrong with your unscriptual "eternal death" as with your assumption on what UR is.
Question: Did you even care to read the title of this thread? Guess not reading your assumption...
there is no death, I don't believe that. God wasn't created us for nothing.
Come on people, God is not like Human, his way and his thinking is differant than our way and thinking and he more love and powerful than us, wasn't created death because Jesus defeated DEATH, so how can anyone die if Jesus defeat it?!
ID,
Some people just believe Jesus was unable to complete the task Father has given Him..
Yes, there is death, including the death of everything that's not of God. Our works not of Him burned, the flesh destroyed so the spirit will be saved (I Cor. 5:5)
If you serve Buddha and worship Satan, then #1, your heart's not yet right, (but that doesn't really matter) you don't love the Father or His Son, and those things will be corrected, "as by fire". You will stand before Him and suffer shame and loss (thank God that does not apply to me). You will go through a process of discipline that will be painful, it will test and purge you until you reach the place of falling at His feet and confessing Him as Lord. (aaahhhh torture me until I love you)
The scripture of "blashemy won't be forgiven..." is correctly translated age, not life. OK in this age or the next!! Same meaning!!!!
There's much to learn, and I believe these are but a few of the things to be searched out, to have revealed to us. (Prov. 25:2). Huh?
[/quote]
So what your telling me is that this wonderful God of love will torture us until we fall down in defeat and say, "Jesus is Lord". Then we will love Him? Yeah right- I really would prefer that to free will (not). I think this means, "see ya later guys" I wish you all the best. Someone tell me how to exit this site permanently. P.S. I don't believe in Buddha or have any Idols BTW. I believe in Jehovah of armies and the Word, His Son Jesus and the Ruach Ha KoDesh - The Holy Spirit - and I believe that Jesus (Yahshua) died for us all and took all our sin to the grave and was resurrected after 3 days and now sits at the right hand of the Father. I think all men will get the chance to know Him and make the CHOICE to receive Him because He calls us all.
Adam, Eve, Satan and a bunch of demons proved that perfect beings can refuse to love and obey God. They came into existence as PERFECT beings. There is no imperfection in Yah. He shows us the different options in behavior by having the animals teach us about instinct. Salmon swim upstream to their birthplace to spawn, not because they want to - They are compelled. I am not a salmon. Hopefully none of you are either.
I never believed in HellFIRE , Eternal Torment and think this doctrine is from Satan himself - the Father of the lie. I believe that Universalism, from this brief interlude is pressing beyond the Word of God and so far you have failed to answer the questions that were asked. The sin against the Holy Spirit question was ignored and or filibustered like the rest of my questions. It has been kind of like, "what do you think about that tree?" and the answer I get from y'all is "the grass is brown". This reminds me of the time I tried to read the Koran, the Book of Mormon and a course in miracles - it was jibberish. Thank you for your time...I don't want to waste anymore of yours or mine. After all "it's all good" so why waste time talking about it all? May God bless you. I will have to ask Him to forgive my obvious case of "Are you kidding"? Lydiah
Quote from: Lydiah on November 13, 2009, 05:56:34 PM
What did Yahweh tell them? If you eat from the tree (He said not to) you will positively die...Period. He never said they would burn in Hellfire, but they would cease to exist.
:cloud9: If this is the concept of annihilation you are believing in here, that is part of the reason, you are having trouble believing and understanding UR. The foundation is off, so it follows that, that which is built upon it, is also off.
No one just "ceases to exist" in God's economy. Moses and Elijah were seen by the disciples, symbolizing among other things, the TWO ways we can meet the Lord, ie. one being caught up alive while still in the body, and one thru literal dying. Blessings....
Quote from: CardinalMoses and Elijah were seen by the disciples, symbolizing among other things, the TWO ways we can meet the Lord, ie. one being caught up alive while still in the body, and one thru literal dying. Blessings....
wow!
jabcat said;
Yes, there is death, including the death of everything that's not of God. Our works not of Him burned, the flesh destroyed so the spirit will be saved (I Cor. 5:5)
If you serve Buddha and worship Satan, then #1, your heart's not yet right, (but that doesn't really matter) you don't love the Father or His Son, and those things will be corrected, "as by fire". You will stand before Him and suffer shame and loss (thank God that does not apply to me). You will go through a process of discipline that will be painful, it will test and purge you until you reach the place of falling at His feet and confessing Him as Lord. (aaahhhh torture me until I love you)
The scripture of "blashemy won't be forgiven..." is correctly translated
age, not life. OK in this age or the next!! Same meaning!!!!
There's much to learn, and I believe these are but a few of the things to be searched out, to have revealed to us. (Prov. 25:2). [/quote]
Quote from: Lydiah on November 15, 2009, 12:14:21 AM
Huh?
So what your telling me is that this wonderful God of love will torture us until we fall down in defeat and say, "Jesus is Lord". Then we will love Him? Yeah right- I really would prefer that to free will (not). I think this means, "see ya later guys" I wish you all the best. Someone tell me how to exit this site permanently. P.S. I don't believe in Buddha or have any Idols BTW. I believe in Jehovah of armies and the Word, His Son Jesus and the Ruach Ha KoDesh - The Holy Spirit - and I believe that Jesus (Yahshua) died for us all and took all our sin to the grave and was resurrected after 3 days and now sits at the right hand of the Father. I think all men will get the chance to know Him and make the CHOICE to receive Him because He calls us all.
Adam, Eve, Satan and a bunch of demons proved that perfect beings can refuse to love and obey God. They came into existence as PERFECT beings. There is no imperfection in Yah. He shows us the different options in behavior by having the animals teach us about instinct. Salmon swim upstream to their birthplace to spawn, not because they want to - They are compelled. I am not a salmon. Hopefully none of you are either.
I never believed in HellFIRE , Eternal Torment and think this doctrine is from Satan himself - the Father of the lie. I believe that Universalism, from this brief interlude is pressing beyond the Word of God and so far you have failed to answer the questions that were asked. The sin against the Holy Spirit question was ignored and or filibustered like the rest of my questions. It has been kind of like, "what do you think about that tree?" and the answer I get from y'all is "the grass is brown". This reminds me of the time I tried to read the Koran, the Book of Mormon and a course in miracles - it was jibberish. Thank you for your time...I don't want to waste anymore of yours or mine. After all "it's all good" so why waste time talking about it all? May God bless you. I will have to ask Him to forgive my obvious case of "Are you kidding"? Lydiah
But surely, God wasn't created people for nothing, did the prophet Isaish mentrion anything about death? No he said all nation will come to him.
(ID, I accidentally got into your post, trying to do something with mine right below it....my bad, content is still there. Thanks bro.)
jabcat said;
Yes, there is death, including the death of everything that's not of God. Our works not of Him burned, the flesh destroyed so the spirit will be saved (I Cor. 5:5)
If you serve Buddha and worship Satan, then #1, your heart's not yet right, [
LYDIA INSERTED (but that doesn't really matter)] you don't love the Father or His Son, and those things will be corrected, "as by fire". You will stand before Him and suffer shame and loss. [
LYDIA INSERTED (thank God that does not apply to me).] You will go through a process of discipline that will be painful, it will test and purge you until you reach the place of falling at His feet and confessing Him as Lord. [
LYDIA INSERTED (aaahhhh torture me until I love you)]
The scripture of "blashemy won't be forgiven..." is correctly translated
age, not life. [
LYDIA INSERTED OK in this age or the next!! Same meaning!!!!]
There's much to learn, and I believe these are but a few of the things to be searched out, to have revealed to us. (Prov. 25:2). [/quote]
[
LYDIA INSERTED Huh?]
Quote from: Lydiah on November 15, 2009, 12:14:21 AM
So what your telling me is that this wonderful God of love will torture us until we fall down in defeat and say, "Jesus is Lord". Then we will love Him? Yeah right- I really would prefer that to free will (not). I think this means, "see ya later guys" I wish you all the best. Someone tell me how to exit this site permanently. P.S. I don't believe in Buddha or have any Idols BTW. I believe in Jehovah of armies and the Word, His Son Jesus and the Ruach Ha KoDesh - The Holy Spirit - and I believe that Jesus (Yahshua) died for us all and took all our sin to the grave and was resurrected after 3 days and now sits at the right hand of the Father. I think all men will get the chance to know Him and make the CHOICE to receive Him because He calls us all.
Adam, Eve, Satan and a bunch of demons proved that perfect beings can refuse to love and obey God. They came into existence as PERFECT beings. There is no imperfection in Yah. He shows us the different options in behavior by having the animals teach us about instinct. Salmon swim upstream to their birthplace to spawn, not because they want to - They are compelled. I am not a salmon. Hopefully none of you are either.
I never believed in HellFIRE , Eternal Torment and think this doctrine is from Satan himself - the Father of the lie. I believe that Universalism, from this brief interlude is pressing beyond the Word of God and so far you have failed to answer the questions that were asked. The sin against the Holy Spirit question was ignored and or filibustered like the rest of my questions. It has been kind of like, "what do you think about that tree?" and the answer I get from y'all is "the grass is brown". This reminds me of the time I tried to read the Koran, the Book of Mormon and a course in miracles - it was jibberish. Thank you for your time...I don't want to waste anymore of yours or mine. After all "it's all good" so why waste time talking about it all? May God bless you. I will have to ask Him to forgive my obvious case of "Are you kidding"? Lydiah
--------------------
I just emailed you this message. "I consider your response to my post as inappropriate. Instead of seeking and searching with an open heart, perhaps your mind's already made up. Consider your account deleted." James.
lol that okay jabcat, no one perfect
Quote from: Lydiah on November 15, 2009, 12:14:21 AM
Adam, Eve, Satan and a bunch of demons proved that perfect beings can refuse to love and obey God. They came into existence as PERFECT beings.
Ha! I would like to see a few verses that back up that claim...
Small hint. Pick up a dictionary and look up the meaning of "perfect"
QuoteI believe that Universalism, from this brief interlude is pressing beyond the Word of God and so far you have failed to answer the questions that were asked.
Or you failed to read the answers given...
QuoteThe sin against the Holy Spirit question was ignored and or filibustered like the rest of my questions.
For those who care reading before judging
http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/unpardonable.html
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Bible%20Threatenings%20Explained.htm
You claim you are a former JW. It doesn't really sound like you are a former one. Put a few plugs in your ears. Ring some doorbells. Push your story without daring to answer questions. Then run of again thinking you saved someone but actually you pushed away people away from God. "filibustered" comedian.
Quote from: IceDash on November 15, 2009, 03:32:40 AM
lol that okay jabcat, no one perfect
I will have you eat those words ID :footmouth:
There are (at least) three.
:omg: is one of them.
Just making a little fun with you ID :Peace2:
Quote from: Lydiah on November 14, 2009, 04:34:05 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 14, 2009, 03:22:31 AM
Quote from: Lydiah
It just seems that throughout the Word, we are told that God will save us all IF we choose to serve Him and accept His Son.
Hi Lydiah,
If it is up to us to choose, serve, and accept Christ in order to gain salvation, then salvation would not be of grace but our works. Salvation would depend on us, not Christ. Salvation would be in our hands, not Christ's, if the above were true.
CHB
It sounds good but it never answers what about the rest of God's word that tells us that some choose not to be saved? Answer that question so I can understand. Did God just have the Spirit have men right down all that to confuse us??
Lydiah, sorry I am late with answering this post. Where does it say that some choose not to be saved? I do not see this in scripture.
Every thing is written down the way God wanted it to be written, else he would change it.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 15, 2009, 10:17:42 AM
Quote from: IceDash on November 15, 2009, 03:32:40 AM
lol that okay jabcat, no one perfect
I will have you eat those words ID :footmouth:
There are (at least) three.
:omg: is one of them.
Just making a little fun with you ID :Peace2:
*FAINT*
just kidding too!
For me it was discovering the the true Greek and Hebrew behind the Bible. Also, the logic of hell-raisers (so to speak) never really added up. If God is love, and God's love never fails, how come it failed for billions of hell-bound humans? If God's mercy never ceases, how come it ceased for billions of hell-bound humans? If God's will never fails then how come it failed for billions of hell-bound sinners. Calvinists view God as a sadistic dictator who sends billions of people to hell who never had a chance at God's mercy and love. Arminians view God as a feeble God who "did the best he could" but ultimately our free will can override God's will that all men will be saved.
Univeralists view God as a loving Father who will correct His children's poor behavior but ultimately will bring us all to Him. We view God as victorious over sin and death. God's Will will prevail. Christ's sacrifice covers all. God's love and mercy are forever. We have free will but we can't override God's Will. One day "every knee will bend and every tongue will confess" Jesus Christ as the victorious Savior.
one good reason to believe is because God has dragged me dragging and kicking into belief.
Lee Damboise II
I believe in the salvation of all because the scriptures plainly teach it, and because the gospel is the revelation of the character of God.
"If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Jn 2:1-2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Col 1:19-20 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Eph 1:9-10 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Rom 11:32-36 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Heb 1:1-3 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
God can only be Perfect, otherwise He Himself would not endure... Therefor the 'end' result (of this unavoidable journey/lesson) can only be the best one possible.
:cloud9: Good thought :thumbsup:
Quote from: Gary Amirault on August 25, 2009, 08:32:58 PM
Has there ever been here a discussion or attempt to make a list of all the reasons for believing in Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ? If not, let's start one right here. Then I'll collect all the reasons and turn it into an article. And if one already exists, someone please direct me to it. Thanks, Gary Amirault.
I'll start the list. Let's keep the answers pithy, short, clear and to the point.
Love Never Fails. 1 Cor. 13:8
Nothing is impossible with God. Mat. 19:26
God commands us to pray for all people. Why command Christians to pray for people if He plans to send them to the eternal incinerator? 1 Tim. 2:1-6
Jesus came to save the world. If He misses a single soul, He can't be the "savior of the world." 1 John 4:14 John 12:32 John 4:42
Is it "just" to consign someone to eternal punishment for finite crimes or for simply being born into a world of sin? No one was ever asked whether they wanted to be born into a world of sin and death from which very few will ever escape according to traditional Christianity.
:2c:
As I dig deeper in the scriptural texts in the original Greek, I see hell as an "era of correction" for those in this life as reject Christ as Lord, and it was poorly translated in the Latin... To me this indicates that perhaps one may come to Christ only after they have experienced hell, and cried out in recognizing Jesus as Lord.
However we are to be much more concerned with preaching Christ to others prior to the grave, using our lives to do so. This is what we are called to do in the great commission - as we live and breath.
God wants us to be apart of the salvation process; we really have no need to know what will happen beyond the grave for a non believer - as this is more of God's concern than ours.
I personally believe He does not wish to make this concept common knowledge; or it would have been so...
Yet I will not deny the possibility of salvation beyond the grave (despite traditional orthodoxy) - but again this is really not to be our focus.
Chaplain Dell
Quote from: Chaplain on December 23, 2010, 09:13:58 PM
As I dig deeper in the scriptural texts in the original Greek, I see hell as an "era of correction" for those in this life as reject Christ as Lord, and it was poorly translated in the Latin... To me this indicates that perhaps one may come to Christ only after they have experienced hell, and cried out in recognizing Jesus as Lord.
However we are to be much more concerned with preaching Christ to others prior to the grave, using our lives to do so. This is what we are called to do in the great commission - as we live and breath.
God wants us to be apart of the salvation process; we really have no need to know what will happen beyond the grave for a non believer - as this is more of God's concern than ours.
I personally believe He does not wish to make this concept common knowledge; or it would have been so...
Yet I will not deny the possibility of salvation beyond the grave (despite traditional orthodoxy) - but again this is really not to be our focus.
Chaplain Dell
Very nice, sensible post. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on December 23, 2010, 10:18:31 PM
Quote from: Chaplain on December 23, 2010, 09:13:58 PM
As I dig deeper in the scriptural texts in the original Greek, I see hell as an "era of correction" for those in this life as reject Christ as Lord, and it was poorly translated in the Latin... To me this indicates that perhaps one may come to Christ only after they have experienced hell, and cried out in recognizing Jesus as Lord.
However we are to be much more concerned with preaching Christ to others prior to the grave, using our lives to do so. This is what we are called to do in the great commission - as we live and breath.
God wants us to be apart of the salvation process; we really have no need to know what will happen beyond the grave for a non believer - as this is more of God's concern than ours.
I personally believe He does not wish to make this concept common knowledge; or it would have been so...
Yet I will not deny the possibility of salvation beyond the grave (despite traditional orthodoxy) - but again this is really not to be our focus.
Chaplain Dell
Very nice, sensible post. :thumbsup:
I really like "era of correction".... gonna look into that further. I agree that we are, as we live and breathe, to be pre-eminently concerned with reconciling men unto God. As to what is or is not to be common knowledge and a part of our proclamation and focus......
I respectfully disagree.
The gospel we proclaim is to include the reconciliation of all things, "the mystery of the gospel"- even as Paul and Peter proclaimed it everywhere. This victorious gospel was revealed from the beginning through angels unto shepherds as glad tidings of great joy..... good will to
all people.
Paul declares, "In all wisdom and insight He made known unto us the mystery of His will......the summing up of all things in Christ, whether in earth or in heaven"(Eph 1).
One of the greatest veils the enemy has held in relation to our gospel and the evangelism of the world is the deception of eternal torment- a lie that terribly distorts the "light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ who is the image of God"(2 Cor 5). The only antidote to that lie is the truth of the "restitution of all things". The "word of reconciliation"(2 Cor 5:18,19) is the "good news"(euaggelos- gospel) that beautiful feet are to carry upon the mountain tops- a message that resonates within the consciousness of men(If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me). We could also say, "If God desired this concept to be common knowledge, he would have made it so", concerning the gospel in general, which is shrouded in mystery throughout most of the world and seen only through the distorted lens of Westernized Christian religion. We have been laboring for decades under the delusion that we "have mostly got it". In truth, we are they of whom Paul spoke when he said, in the last days perilous times will come.... evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse, deceived and being deceived.... teaching godliness as a means of gain", etc., etc.
I believe the greatest move of God is yet to come, and it will include the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ as it was preached by the apostles. The faith, "once and for all" delivered to the saints by the Lord Jesus, "whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things which God spoke from the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began"(Acts 3:19).
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly,
to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
(Eph 6:19-20)
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
(Col 1:25-27)
Now to him that is of power to stablish you
according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:25-26)
Having made known unto us
the mystery of his will, according to his good will which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being
predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Eph 1:9-11)
For the creature(creation) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature(creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the
whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.......And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are
the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:20-29)
This gospel of universal reconciliation through the cross of Christ will bring those who proclaim it openly even greater persecution, from Pharisaical Christians declaring us as a "cult"- the "sect of the universal reconciliationists"- and from the world, for we are still proclaiming that "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. This reconciliation is accomplished "through the blood of His cross", and tho every adversary will be subjected and reconciled- in the meantime "we are all as sheep led to slaughter", filling up in our bodies the that which lacks in the sufferings of Jesus Christ, for, "If we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him". Reigning with Him means participating in the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets since the world began-"He who overcomes will inherit all things and sit with me on my throne".
And hath raised us up together, and
made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:6-8)
GLORY!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 25, 2009, 08:39:55 PM
1 Timothy 2 (Amplified Bible)
1 FIRST OF all, then, I admonish and urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men,
2 For kings and all who are in positions of authority or high responsibility, that [outwardly] we may pass a quiet and undisturbed life [and inwardly] a peaceable one in all godliness and reverence and seriousness in every way.
3 For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior,
4 Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.
5 For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all [people, a fact that was] attested to at the right and proper time.
You will have a hard time convincing God that Jesus is the mediator between him and his people. God used the prophets to speak for him, too. Jesus was the first sinless chosen one of God's so he could have his body in complete obedience to his light power so he could speak through Jesus. God needs a physical body to reveal his knowledge and once the body dies, then he remains to be God.
John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Psalm 27
0: A Psalm of David.
1: The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The LORD is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Deuteronomy 6
4: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD;
5: and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
Isaiah 40
28: Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary, his understanding is unsearchable.
Isaiah 41
13: For I, the LORD your God, hold your right hand; it is I who say to you, "Fear not, I will help you."
14: Fear not, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel! I will help you, says the LORD; your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 43
1: But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.
2: When you pass through the waters I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you.
3: For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I give Egypt as your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in exchange for you.
14: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "For your sake I will send to Babylon and break down all the bars, and the shouting of the Chalde'ans will be turned to lamentations.
15: I am the LORD, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King."
Isaiah 44
6: Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
24: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth -- Who was with me? --
Isaiah 45
5: I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I gird you, though you do not know me,
6: that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
Zechariah 14
9: And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
Quote from: The Word on March 02, 2011, 05:27:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 25, 2009, 08:39:55 PM
1 Timothy 2 (Amplified Bible)
1 FIRST OF all, then, I admonish and urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men,
2 For kings and all who are in positions of authority or high responsibility, that [outwardly] we may pass a quiet and undisturbed life [and inwardly] a peaceable one in all godliness and reverence and seriousness in every way.
3 For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior,
4 Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.
5 For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all [people, a fact that was] attested to at the right and proper time.
You will have a hard time convincing God that Jesus is the mediator between him and his people. God used the prophets to speak for him, too. Jesus was the first sinless chosen one of God's so he could have his body in complete obedience to his light power so he could speak through Jesus. God needs a physical body to reveal his knowledge and once the body dies, then he remains to be God.
John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Psalm 27
0: A Psalm of David.
1: The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The LORD is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Deuteronomy 6
4: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD;
5: and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
Isaiah 40
28: Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary, his understanding is unsearchable.
Isaiah 41
13: For I, the LORD your God, hold your right hand; it is I who say to you, "Fear not, I will help you."
14: Fear not, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel! I will help you, says the LORD; your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 43
1: But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.
2: When you pass through the waters I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you.
3: For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I give Egypt as your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in exchange for you.
14: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "For your sake I will send to Babylon and break down all the bars, and the shouting of the Chalde'ans will be turned to lamentations.
15: I am the LORD, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King."
Isaiah 44
6: Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
24: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth -- Who was with me? --
Isaiah 45
5: I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I gird you, though you do not know me,
6: that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
Zechariah 14
9: And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
Whats your point? I love all these verses, but are you saying that they somehow invalidate the verses in Timothy? :o)
I am an editor and publisher of Holocaust poetry who grew up in an evangelical Christian family. After 53 years of study and research, I think the best reason to believe in Universal Salvation, if there is any truth in the Bible, is that "hell" was never mentioned in the Old Testament, and yet there is no verse in the New Testament in which the creation of "hell" was ever announced. You can read my findings and conclusions at:
http://www.thehypertexts.com/no%20hell%20in%20the%20bible.htm
Michael R. Burch
:cloud9: What is "Holocaust poetry"? :dontknow:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 14, 2011, 05:28:56 AM
:cloud9: What is "Holocaust poetry"? :dontknow:
Yeah?
I did some Googling and found that Holocaust poetry and art are often/usually thoughts and feelings expressed artistically, by Holocaust survivors (or descendents). I saw that Mike is quite involved in this, including translatiing. :thumbsup:
Having lost my son to a drug overdose in November of 2010, and having had some time to genuflect and recover some perspective- I can't imagine, what I would do if I thought that he would spend eternity in torment. I am so moved for people who are tormented by the thought of such a horrible fate being put upon their loved ones. It so motivates me to proclaim the glorious gospel of Jesus and the reconciliation of all things. We are so blessed. We have such a beautiful Savior- and such a wonderful God and Father.
I am sorry to hear what happened, eaglesway. I knew your son had died and I was just a lurker at the time. But I wept for you, and prayed for you.
Thx
:HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob:
QuoteThat gives us a choice. You can offer me a gift and I can refuse it.
That's a often heard ET argument. Boils down to this: 100% gets the offer. 5% accept it. 95% goes to hell because they choose eternal torture.
Yes if you ask somebody to go to a christian meeting of some kind MOST people would choose the flesh instead go somewhere else & spend the time doing what they like, (not attracted to God, somehow God is boring full of laws & rules which of course is not true, but if thats what they choose to believe him to be then thats there fault)
Im strugling with the classic verse > 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Shall not perish? Maybe perishing could be just been flesh forever & not been able to live or partke in the spirit of glory? Jesus spoke of destruction, perishing
I heard something verry interesting from a in depth bible study that Jesus only ever spoke of hell to the believers?? Im mystified by that?
only 1 thing can be true rather we are wanting to believe what we want to believe, Or its true what we feel he has showed us & God really is so loving beyond our imagination
Forgive me if im taking the negative verses but in 2 peter 9 it reads > He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Again Perishing? I hope perish means punishment leading to an eventual redemption.
THere are lots of gems in Peter the new earth is a home of righteousness, not hell I just read.
Ian mc cormack (also known as the Jelly fish man) saw a new heaven & earth, he went into darkest blackness before in the Glorious presence of the Lord, 2 Peter 2 v 17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. Ian wasn't shown any further insight regarding hell and the future of that place or for how long.
God bless you im going to bed now :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
For me personally,
I can not go back to the god I grudgingly loved, and couldn't trust enough to save me, even as a Christian!
This is way I believe in UR
Because I tasted his never failing love, I am inlove with my great, awesome, almighty, powerful God who will never forsake me.
Quote from: misszoolander on January 25, 2013, 10:28:43 AM
For me personally,
I can not go back to the god I grudgingly loved, and couldn't trust enough to save me, even as a Christian!
This is way I believe in UR
Because I tasted his never failing love, I am inlove with my great, awesome, almighty, powerful God who will never forsake me.
Amen thats a very sinciere sharing from a heart that knows it belongs to its loving saviour, I too despite some of my questions witness to the unfailing love that he has for me & for others too. This is the joy to behold & joy unspeakable I felt when he showed me things before, I should follow my convictions more than any doubts that scripture might appear to suggest otherwise.
The one that I find explains it the best is the fact that death will be the last enemy defeated, which is declared definitively in Revelations. It doesn't matter what somebody says the 2nd death is. Spiritual death, physical death or seperation from God. Each one has to be defeated. To defeat spiritual death, God must make all spritually alive. To defeat physical death, God must make all physically alive. To defeat seperation from God, God would have to bring all into his precense. I don't see how you could get around that except to deny that the bible claims that death will be defeated.
Welcome Wiley,
To those of us that believe in a scripturally based Ultimate Reconciliation, there has to be a denial of over 100 scriptures and reasoning from those scriptures. We look forward to more input from you. :Peace2: :dsunny:
Quote from: wiley16350 on February 05, 2013, 11:05:36 PM
The one that I find explains it the best is the fact that death will be the last enemy defeated, which is declared definitively in Revelations. It doesn't matter what somebody says the 2nd death is. Spiritual death, physical death or seperation from God. Each one has to be defeated. To defeat spiritual death, God must make all spritually alive. To defeat physical death, God must make all physically alive. To defeat seperation from God, God would have to bring all into his precense. I don't see how you could get around that except to deny that the bible claims that death will be defeated.
Amen absolutely Amen ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on February 06, 2013, 01:59:43 AM
Quote from: wiley16350 on February 05, 2013, 11:05:36 PM
The one that I find explains it the best is the fact that death will be the last enemy defeated, which is declared definitively in Revelations. It doesn't matter what somebody says the 2nd death is. Spiritual death, physical death or seperation from God. Each one has to be defeated. To defeat spiritual death, God must make all spritually alive. To defeat physical death, God must make all physically alive. To defeat seperation from God, God would have to bring all into his precense. I don't see how you could get around that except to deny that the bible claims that death will be defeated.
Amen absolutely Amen ;o)
:thumbsup: Welcome!
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 09, 2009, 10:55:25 AM
Quote from: Lydiah on November 09, 2009, 12:42:47 AMDoesn't the belief in Universalism make Jesus sacrifice unnecessary?
No. That's why it is CHRISTian universalism.
QuoteI don't believe in a place of torment either, but death (the grave) and resurrection of All those in the tombs so that All are given a chance to receive Jesus or reject Him.
It's a bit how you define chance perhaps; but it isn't really a chance but a fact that all will (eventually) receive Jesus.
God drags all man to Him. He's not begging.
Joh_6:44 - No one can come to Him unless He draws them. You can't "chose" to follow Him.
QuoteThat gives us a choice. You can offer me a gift and I can refuse it.
That's a often heard ET argument. Boils down to this: 100% gets the offer. 5% accept it. 95% goes to hell because they choose eternal torture.
QuoteIf there is no choice and even Satan gets to rebel and be forgiven, what would prevent future rebellion?
Did satan rebel? He was a murderer from the beginning. Sounds he was always evil.
QuoteAre we programmed to obey? Is God just currently subjecting us all to futility? I really don't understand.
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Lydia: You asked some questions about free will, satan, fallen angels etc.
It's a very long article but answers all/many of your questions I think. I also think many on this forum agree with most of the article.
Lake of Fire Series halfway down teh page: http://bible-truths.com/
Hello All i have been away for abit doing my own studying on all of this i found some scriptures that suggest definatley ther eis an IF & also In Luke where Jesus is talking of marrige he menations about those that are
WOrthy to be saved?? I must admist also i came across a few that would suggest All will be probably sorted in the end eventually
I really dont want to sound negative here but dear Lydiah i think brought up brilliant points & i see she was given back more often UR beliefs using scriptures (AS AGREED BY TENT MAKERS WEBSITE WE CAN ALL MAKE THEM BELIEVE WHAT WE WANT EITHER WAY RIGHT?) I dont think here comments were specifically replied on but gave other answers, the thing baout choice makes alot of sense, WHY WOULD JESUS GO TO HELL PREACH TO THE DEAD in the 3 days after leaving the cross, it would be abslaoutley obsurd to suggest he went them drew them all to himself but by preaching? lol!
Im even going against what i though twas a revelation of salvation of all which I even testified but im starting to see now what i was gettin if i remember specifically was that GOD really really reallly of course loves everybody the same i was seeing that feeling that & not just toward smy humble friend who always speaks like the thief on the cross i especially u could see i nthe spirit all the grace he was getting & he'd say like but i dont deserve God to love me so much & u could just see the grace somehow poured on him, but my friend who always turns away from God talk i saw too god loves him also & as much, but it doesnt take away it still could be dependant on there choice at the end of the day, so there u have THe good the bad and the ugly lol! well of course i meaning on the terms of who was making the right choice, I was sat basking in his presence feeling the glory yes even feeling it, 1 was been bad by knowing he believes God but still even with alll the grace given doesn't actually turn to God time & time again & the ugly seeieng listening but still remaining to choose to not allow any kind of light in him. All that going by good on the merit of choice shows that the sure thing that God making a world which is perfect allowing Satan to reside in should give us enough logic to see the only answer for thta could be to TEST his clay on the basis of loving them enough to give them choice, note it says GOd wants alllllll desires allll but doesnt say he WILL save all in such an obvious verse, i haven't found it yet anyway. God wants ppl to love him out of love freely enjoying him fellowshipping with him the GRace is as WIIIIIDE spread as the fall was its freely to be recieved by alllllllllll them that have not heard the gospel can still turn to God under a tree i na jungle if they wish to seek this all powerful creator whatever he is say?
I belive ther eis a wiiiideness in Gods mercy and than also many in the last moments recieve the most grace ever as Ian mc cormck testifies to that (Box jelly fish man who died for 20 mins body in the morgue all that) he says often regarding death dont u give up on them u knew werent saved cause its like time slows down i nyour last moments like the matrix kind of thing....
Jesus went to hell to preach, if Everlasting means age ending PTL!!! i hope so that be cool!
but i'd say it be even more cool if them that LIVE NOw turn to GOD whic hthey can freely do everyday at any gicen time each & ever day isnt that chance enough????? wow so much time for it woooo!
Another big thing is that my friend tells me his friend who is a scholar in Herbrewic tells him creation in Genesis actually means more RE CREATION so here we are on a better canvass Satab & his fallen ones messed up earth in its pre NOW creation age, Gd then makes man in his image to save them all a happy ending just donesnt make sense let Satan be on earth? Can anybody specifically answer this part with UR beliefs, I would be very thankful to hear & learn more, mayb i need to see the bigger picture but CHoice Satan one 1 shoulder Od on the other doesnt sound to me like a genius God who is going to save alllllllll a su alll know God creates darkness too & has a very intersting relationship with the Devil to say the least SIMON SIMO Satan has asked thta u be sifted as wheat & the whole Job account its like sometimes Stan cleary goes into GOds office so to speak? why cause GOd wants to give us more hell than been human already no way, he wants refine us through fire & testing. Discilpine is good amen?
We all need a black hole dark nights of the soul to see whter we use the heat shield or not can get through dark moments in our life as they will come around.
God pure genius i'd say everybodyt gets what they want if they love Flesh (Hell) they get it but of course not eternal torment as some kind of Sadistic God or meanine hell will be a good place just not as good as now on earth i reckon.
I pray & hope with u its age ending if its im a whole lot happier if its not it doesnt make me unlove GOd as i love that he loves us alll so much & did what he did through Christ & we can easily anyday any moment hour turn to him how generous hey?
Very mericful & graceful, Grace is resting in that hope not good works that get us ther ebut just atleast not denying him turning against, wev'e recieved grace by the blood of the cross we have turned to Christ so he justfies us by faith in him & confessing him, called upon his name eternal life is a fre gift even more generous :O Did u get that eteral life a gift that alllllll can recieve.
& to answer the 95% dont 5% get hallelujah atlest some desired such a loving GOd :) :dsunny: :thumbsup:
Even in NOah's day only 8 survived woooooooo they were cool ppl too
WHat did Jesus say to his followers
Even though you are evil!we are evil we need redemption his life his kindness to be changed into his Glory, evil ppl who refuse God to the day they die aww so sad they let themselves remai nthta evil of pride, & u must of heard of allllllll the near death accounts of ppl gettin trembling scared knwing that they were so evil they denied the living GOd (ROMANS 1 they have no excuse) but many especilaly powerful ppl get the pee in the pants &start believing in God sadly knwing in thereselves the conviction that they had not joy but a fear of now seeing the one they always refused.
I think UR has many truths & sounds pretty but it is more wishful thinking hopeful and caring whic his Gods love indeed i love that, but it seems to be able to face up the free will factor & cant live it down that if ppl choose flesh they will get flesh i'd call it a fair deal, and i just hope now hell is age ending if so i'll be the first to leap with joy & i'd be like wow GOd is extra gracious :HeartThrob:
I hope u lovley ppl are right i really do but its going against logic possibly, unless the age ending is just os bad enough anyway & more than enough to of shown his wrath on the disobediant. Yes thats me too but thanks God i have recieved him & he is author & perfector of my faith not me, he will se to it because i am his child IN his kingdom i allow my God to refresh me teach me love me its taking 2 to tango all the way i see it.
Love u all hope i made gave some food to chew on there, pls spit out the bones but if do please try to answer why if u can.
God Bless
Hey Mark :friendstu:
I'm sure the others will help you out, with you and your questions. Your perspective is indeed valuable.
I know UR seems like a bit of a stretch, I know it seems like wishful thinking... but with God all things are possible.
I know that UR requires heavy study, but God calls us to do these things, he does not want us to settle for tradition, but for him. If we are wrong, God will show us the truth, we put our faith in him, even though stepping outside of tradition is scary, he will always guide us to the truth, even if we experience conviction along the way.
Eternal hell to me does not seem logical. Why would God create Adam and Eve imperfect enough to damn most of the human race. He knew they were going to fall, he knew people would become evil. He knows the heart of every man before they take their first breath. Because he knows this, he has always had a plan. We can not say people will choose hell, because they reject Jesus. People do not know Jesus. They have never been blessed with his grace, his love like you and I have. I agree, Satan is here to test us, to help us understand the lessons of life.
God has put a veil over humankind, to purposely help us understand the truth when it is our time. I do not believe in freewill. I believe humankind can make choices, but only because of the situations they are in. For example if I truly had freewill then everything would be the way I wanted things to be, for an example I will myself to be without sin, yet i have a sinful nature. My freewill is limited, in fact my freewill is bound to sin. God knows my freewill is limited, he knows that humankind is evil, wicked and imperfect. Hence why Jesus died to redeem us. God is always in control, always.
It is clear in the bible that grace AND faith is a gift from God, we did not create faith, these two things are a gift from God, "least we boast". If a christian was to boast in front of God saying "I had great faith Lord" God will most probably help that man understand that it was not his faith that saved him, it was Jesus. See the thing about freewill is that it has turned into man saving himself by faith through Jesus, rather then Jesus saving fullstop. We must be, as Christ followers careful that we do not add anything to what Jesus did for us. There is a difference between someone thanking and praising God for his cross, but as soon as man starts justifying themselves because of "their" own faith..well that's like saying "I saved myself by believing in you Jesus"
Another big thing is that my friend tells me his friend who is a scholar in Herbrewic tells him creation in Genesis actually means more RE CREATION so here we are on a better canvass Satan & his fallen ones messed up earth in its pre NOW creation age, Gd then makes man in his image to save them all a happy ending just donesnt make sense let Satan be on earth?
God has not made man in his image yet. We are in the process of being made in to his image - "And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them."
We will become fully the image of Christ when we understand the lessons of life, which IMO is love, and forgiveness.
These things can not be taught without understanding, and experiencing them first. Mercy can not be forgiven without a wrong done. See the reason why there is Satan, evil, grief, wickedness in the world is so we can understand how great god truly is, and also how merciful.
This is not just about happy endings bro, this about God building us towards understanding, so he can have individual souls glorifying him. We can be individuals unless we all experience something different. Experiences help shape us, and make us who we are, God knows this, and he knows what it will take so that all freely, and willingly choose him.
What is the purpose of an eternal hell? Justice? My understanding of perfect justice is redeeming the situation. See a murderer can go to jail or even get the death penalty, but that does not redeem the situation, or make things back to normal for his victims. With man perfect Justice is near impossible, with God he can obtain perfect justice. He can bring understanding to the murderer and teach the murderer and victim the lessons of life..Love and forgiveness. - That is true justice.
Do not get us wrong however, we do believe in punishment, however eternal punishment is something that we see beings no glory, or good to God. If God loves us, and never "casts off forever" why would he being all knowing submit himself to knowing 90 percent of his children go to hell without ever knowing the truth?
John 8:32 "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." - Every man shall know the truth, and it will set them free. :friendstu:
Blessings to you bro, I will add you btw tonight on skype :dsunny:
My belief in UR didn't come about as a result of scripture. I cherish scripture and would really not want to ever be without it. I've spent a goodly part of my life debating and discussing the issues brought up by folk as they wind their way around the words. I've been on many sides.
Hair coverings?
You bet!! Nah, don't bother.
Wine and Bread?
You have to do it the way it says in the Bible (or as least the way John Philip Darby and his friends did it). I've had communion with a Coke and a Mars bar.
Version?
It has to be KJV!! Good New for Modern Man speaks to me.
Baptize me?
Baptism has to be in the name of all three. It's only two. It has to be immersion. Anabaptists go to hell.
Tongues?
Speaking in tongues proves you are filled. Speaking in tongues is self-promotion and self-absorbed attention grabbing.
Either God is in charge, or He isn't. Either you belive that or you don't. Either that's enough for you or it isn't.
If God isn't enough for you, then nothing ever will be. If you know Him ... you know this. The thing is. I know my dad. It really doesn't matter to me if you can prove your position: don't get me wrong, I love a good debate and revel in a good discussion. To me the ultimate question however is: "Do you know your dad?"
If you don't know Him, then you can discuss who He is and what you think you can do to prove it till you're blue in the face. If you know Him, you would never insult Him by thinking His love is anything less than The Father's Love for everything He holds dear. I love my dad to the point of tears ... daily. I have often said that if He wasn't here I would have checked out a long time ago.
Yes there are scriptures to back up our stance. But, if I don't sense you know your dad, all scripture quoting sounds like a tinkling cymbal to me.
Joshua didn't need to quote scripture to the Children of Israel. He didn't need to argue with anyone. People knew him, and because they respected him, all he had to say was, 'as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.' Most people don't follow an abstract bunch of intellectual principles and say eureka. They get to know you, and respect you. They watch you and see if you really believe your message. Do you love, or are you just a wind bag who needs to one up them for his/her own ego boast? When they trust and come to like (love) you, they take what you say seriously because you believe what you say. I know, trust, and adore my dad. If someone needs something else to be important, well ... God bless you. Because I trust my Father implicitly I fall asleep in His lap: night.
That was beautiful and well said VineBranch :thumbsup: :dsunny: :gimmefive:
"If God isn't enough for you, then nothing ever will be. If you know Him ... you know this. The thing is. I know my dad. It really doesn't matter to me if you can prove your position: don't get me wrong, I love a good debate and revel in a good discussion. To me the ultimate question however is: "Do you know your dad?"
Yes I do! :dsunny:
And he is the best Dad, more personal than a earthly father and more loving than an earthly mother. :dsunny:
Btw VB, who were you referring your post too? Battleaxe or me? Because I think this applies to everyone :Peace2:
Love is a never ending story.
I was made and perfected for my part in the story.
God spoke the story.
I alone know my story so far.
I seem consumed at times trying to figure out every body else's story.
I hope my story is not the shading around and out side of Love.
Quote from: misszoolander on February 08, 2013, 10:36:47 PM
Btw VB, who were you referring your post too? Battleaxe or me? Because I think this applies to everyone :Peace2:
Sorry Mzd, I didn't mean to confuse anyone. I was just responding to Mr. Amirault's request that we make a list of the reasons we believe in UR. This was my reason.
Awake thou that sleepest, and Arise from the dead, and the Light of Christ will shine upon you!
I read through this thread and a couple of things jumped out at me..
Somebody asked about the word "perish" - imo, "to perish" is a potential, but which will never happen. This whole thing.. human history/God's truth proving drama, is in order to teach everyone some absolutely unbreakable truth (a rod of iron if you will :smile: )
I always believed in UR and the 100% Goodness of God.. been saved 34 years, but about 17 years ago I had what to me was quite an experience. My son, aged 16 at the time, asked me two questions which i answered, but I was not all that happy with my answers.
His questions? "Why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"
So I prayed for better answers. I really, really, really, have a very deep desire to understand Truth, all Truth and nothing but, The Truth.
Bam!! the answers came back to me during prayer immediately!! And the whole thing ended with our Father asking me a question!! :laughing7: I'm telling you (as the saying goes) the answers knocked my socks off.. knocked me for a loop.. And I was a pretty solid and happy believer before this. My socks are still knocked off.
Truth as I understand it, or imo: :smile:
"Why was the tree of knowing good from evil in the garden"?
Because when God endowed thinking ability, an offshoot (sooner or later) is being able to make choices. So when He endowed rationality, a whole new world (er tree) of possibilities 'came to be'. And our loving Father.. He can only be true/honest, so there was that tree smack dab in the middle of the garden of life.
"In the beginning God, and.."? Nope, "In the beginning, God."
God is Life, life itself, the life force. Who/What else could be? (Yes, the force be with you :laughing7: ) He is Life. And, He is also Perfection. Certainly?
Perhaps you too see the 'problem', the dilemma.. the paradox? Fine and dandy to endow the ability to make choices, but what happens once one chooses any (teeny, tiny) thing which does not agree with God's choices? One begins to move away from Perfection.. and so they become the opposite of Life. Hence death. Hence needing to be rescued. Both from imPerfection and its result, non-life/death, the opposite of God/Life/Perfection.
He built into all things from the very beginning ("from the foundation of the world") the rescue. And He has only interfered with mankind's choices/'free-will' one or two other (dire) times, otherwise, it would not be choice, nor anything resembling 'free-will' (as imperfect as that too is).
Yes, I began to see how totally, totally wise (and truly all knowing our Father is!!) He saw all possibilities from 'the beginning', and where they would go, and He (of course) has done all things, in order to bring about the best 'end' result possible.
Because God endowed thinking ability, all suffer, some even horribly! But because God is Life, He suffers, lives through and experiences all sufferings and affronts which ever occur. Why would He put Himself through all that?? Because He's not creating an ant farm, or robots, but His very own family.
And, an eternally un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable because everyone will fully understand, and it will be deeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche, the knowing of all good from evil / life from death / true from untrue. Deeply engraved. Sad to say, but how do humans learn best? By experience.
Add to that what has to be a veRy long day of the examination (judgment) of all things.. all human history.. as to what went wrong.. and perhaps in some small instances, what went right. An intense 'day' of review for all of us. Deeply. Engraved.
I like to ask ET'rs, why is there a 2nd resurrection? I'm assuming 'their' belief is so he can cast them into a lake of flesh melting fire and thus unimaginable torture and torment forever and ever. Did someone say something about thinking ability? (Oiye!)
[ This insight came later.] It's only at the end of judgment/examination/engraving 'day' that is recorded the notorious words (paraphrased) "those NOT believing will go to the 2nd death"/will perish. But! After having experienced being resurrected, woken up, from ones sleep in the grave, and after having witnessed and lived through a veRy long day of the examination of all things, along with all your friends, etc... Who's noT going to "believe"???
God is Perfect, the 'end' result can only be the utter best-one-possible. I will leave it at that. Except for the question which came at the end of the answered prayer 17 years ago, the one my (our) Father asked me! :Peace2:
"Why? Did God wait so long and only create the universe and man and woman, not only aFter the first bound to occur rebel thought occurred, but after it had ripened into outright sedition and trickery?" (Long, because surely when there was 'only' the Father, the Son and the angels, there wasn't that much to go astray about! He is infinitely patient. Didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did.) I was in prayer and the answer, by praying, came right back at me.
"Why did God wait so long, and only create the universe, and man and woman, not only after the first bound to occur rebel thought occurred, but after that rebellion had ripened into outright sedition and trickery??"
thanks for bearing with me.. We cannot conceive of how utterly, utterly wonderful He is. :dsunny:
I thought this was a different thread.. but i guess this fits here ok too.. and sorry is SO long! :Oops:
I know the Bible isn't clear on this but this is my belief. Everything that was created was created by God in the initial six days. Angels are created beings. Therefore, I believe they were created sometime during the creation week. Also, since angels are messengers they were unnecessary when there was just Father and Son. :2c:
Quote from: CHB on October 08, 2009, 04:57:52 AM
The salvation of all is the only thing that makes any sense, that is why I believe it.
CHB
Amen..I can only concur with Barclay below.
I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST
by William Barclay
Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at Glasgow University and the author of many Biblical commentaries and books, including a translation of the New Testament, "Barclay New Testament," and "The Daily Study Bible Series."
I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.
Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery." Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.
But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.
First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.
Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment.
The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.
Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.
Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.
:dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:
God wills that none perish rather that ALL be saved. 2Peter 3 :9
'I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will'. Isaiah 46:10
The Lord will do ALL His will !.Therefore..what the Lord wills, WILL take place !...absolutely no doubt !. :banana: :banana: :banana: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:
Quote from: darryl on February 22, 2016, 02:54:06 AM
God wills that none perish rather that ALL be saved. 2Peter 3 :9
'I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will'. Isaiah 46:10
The Lord will do ALL His will !.Therefore..what the Lord wills, WILL take place !...absolutely no doubt !. :banana: :banana: :banana: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
The wisdom of man is foolish and tries to outreason God.
Romans 11;34-36 " For who has known the mind of God?
Or who has been His counsellor?
Or who has given to God that God must pay him back?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
To Him be the glory for all time!"
Quote from: Ross on February 22, 2016, 03:12:49 AM
Quote from: darryl on February 22, 2016, 02:54:06 AM
God wills that none perish rather that ALL be saved. 2Peter 3 :9
'I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will'. Isaiah 46:10
The Lord will do ALL His will !.Therefore..what the Lord wills, WILL take place !...absolutely no doubt !. :banana: :banana: :banana: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
The wisdom of man is foolish and tries to outreason God.
Romans 11;34-36 " For who has known the mind of God?
Or who has been His counsellor?
Or who has given to God that God must pay him back?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
To Him be the glory for all time!"
:iagree: :thumbsup: :banana: :banana: :dsunny: :dsunny:
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 23, 2016, 04:41:54 AM
...... so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
yes..we are merely the 'first' to hope in Christ (the rest of humanity will follow at some point later )...sadly, Calvinists and Arminianists believe those 'first to hope' will be the only ones to ever hope..the rest, who never 'hope' in this life, will be damned....how they misrepresent God's love and power to save..shame on them.
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Quote from: jabcat on February 06, 2013, 02:09:10 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 06, 2013, 01:59:43 AM
Quote from: wiley16350 on February 05, 2013, 11:05:36 PM
The one that I find explains it the best is the fact that death will be the last enemy defeated, which is declared definitively in Revelations. It doesn't matter what somebody says the 2nd death is. Spiritual death, physical death or seperation from God. Each one has to be defeated. To defeat spiritual death, God must make all spritually alive. To defeat physical death, God must make all physically alive. To defeat seperation from God, God would have to bring all into his precense. I don't see how you could get around that except to deny that the bible claims that death will be defeated.
Amen absolutely Amen ;o)
:thumbsup: Welcome!
Great point! :iagree:
D.
Quote from: Lydiah on November 13, 2009, 05:56:34 PM
Thank you I will look at it :>). It just seems that throughout the Word, we are told that God will save us all IF we choose to serve Him and accept His Son. I will read about the demons and Satan and ponder and pray in the Spirit. Thank you for your response. Lydia
"Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay."
This brought me up short in a hurry - It is where the original flaw in reason is inserted in my view. It is a direct quote from an article on the site you sent me (bible truths). Adam and Eve were made PERFECT, SATAN was also perfect. Ezekiel 28:15 "You were perfect in your ways, from the day you were created, until unrighteous was found in you." Satan made a choice, Adam and Eve were also perfect and made a choice. Yahweh did not will them to sin. They chose to do it. For God to be love, He must give us the right to choose him. Otherwise we are animals following an instinct. We can not love without choice. That made rebellion a possibility. Gods Sovereignty was challenged. The case against Him proffered by Satan (false accusation, calling God a liar) had to be resolved. Satan told them (Adam and Eve) Yahweh was a liar. Satan said they would be like Him if they ate from the tree God restricted them from. He only put the tree there to allow them a choice to obey or not. He gave them everything they could possibly want and only the one restriction to give them a chance to love Him by keeping His commandment. Remember the scripture in 1John..."for this is what the love of God means..that you keep my commandments..." It was true in the Garden as well. What did Yahweh tell them? If you eat from the tree (He said not to) you will positively die...Period. He never said they would burn in Hellfire, but they would cease to exist. I believe they went to the second death Rev. 21:8 because they were perfect and chose to disobey. That is why Satan also goes to the second death. All men who died in sin because they were born in sin (imperfection) get a second chance. But this shows that even perfect humans and angels can choose to rebel. Yahweh offers salvation to everyone born to our original parents, but they must do their part. Choose Life. Lydiah
Copy-n-paste from my Facebook Timeline:
Romans 9:14-16 (My rough cut – with emphasis mine)
God's good will (not humans' freewill) justified by Scripture:
9:14 Then, we will speak [out] what? NO unrighteousness with the God (YHWH)? Become NOT;
9:15 for He utters [to] the Moses, "I will have mercy [unto] whom I may have mercy, and I will have compassion [unto] whom I may have compassion."
9:16 Then, [it is] then not of the [one] desiring, neither of the [one] running, but of the God having mercy.
Exodus 33:19 (ESV – with CORRECTION mine)
And He said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you My name 'YHWH.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
Romans 9:17-18 (My rough cut – with emphasis mine)
God's will (not humans' freewill) to the whole world justified by Scripture:
9:17 For the Scripture utters [to] the Pharaoh, "That TO this it I arouse [out] thee, so that I would show forth in you the [dynamic] power of Me, and so that he would be declared the name of Me in all the earth."
9:18 So then [unto] whom He desires, He has mercy; BUT [unto] whom He desires, He hardens.
Exodus 9:13-16 (ESV)
13 Then YHWH said to Moses, "Rise up early in the morning and present yourself before Pharaoh and say to him, 'Thus says YHWH, the Almighty of the Hebrews, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me.
14 ................
15 ................
16 But for this purpose I have raised you (Pharaoh) up, to show you My power, so that My name (YHWH) may be proclaimed in all the earth.
Romans 9:19-21 (My rough cut – with emphasis mine)
God's will/way/trial/etc. should not be challenged!
9:19 Then, you will speak [out] [to] me, "[Then] why yet He finds fault? for who finds fault [with] the preference of His?
19:20 ................
19:21 ................
Quote from: Dandelion on February 24, 2016, 08:47:57 PM
Quote from: jabcat on February 06, 2013, 02:09:10 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 06, 2013, 01:59:43 AM
Quote from: wiley16350 on February 05, 2013, 11:05:36 PM
The one that I find explains it the best is the fact that death will be the last enemy defeated, which is declared definitively in Revelations. It doesn't matter what somebody says the 2nd death is. Spiritual death, physical death or seperation from God. Each one has to be defeated. To defeat spiritual death, God must make all spritually alive. To defeat physical death, God must make all physically alive. To defeat seperation from God, God would have to bring all into his precense. I don't see how you could get around that except to deny that the bible claims that death will be defeated.
Amen absolutely Amen ;o)
:thumbsup: Welcome!
Great point! :iagree:
D.
I also agree.
the Bible repeatedly says Jesus is the Savior of the world..either He is or He is not...hellists call the Bible into question by their stubborn insistence that many if not most will be lost..how can most be lost if He is the savior of the world ?..I prefer to take the Bible at it's word...that, ultimately, ALL will find salvation in and through Jesus Christ. :dsunny:
:banana:
:banana: :dsunny:
Quote from: Lydiah on November 13, 2009, 05:56:34 PM
Thank you I will look at it :>). It just seems that throughout the Word, we are told that God will save us all IF we choose to serve Him and accept His Son. I will read about the demons and Satan and ponder and pray in the Spirit. Thank you for your response. Lydia
"Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay."
This brought me up short in a hurry - It is where the original flaw in reason is inserted in my view. It is a direct quote from an article on the site you sent me (bible truths). Adam and Eve were made PERFECT, SATAN was also perfect. Ezekiel 28:15 "You were perfect in your ways, from the day you were created, until unrighteous was found in you." Satan made a choice, Adam and Eve were also perfect and made a choice. Yahweh did not will them to sin. They chose to do it. For God to be love, He must give us the right to choose him. Otherwise we are animals following an instinct. We can not love without choice. That made rebellion a possibility. Gods Sovereignty was challenged. The case against Him proffered by Satan (false accusation, calling God a liar) had to be resolved. Satan told them (Adam and Eve) Yahweh was a liar. Satan said they would be like Him if they ate from the tree God restricted them from. He only put the tree there to allow them a choice to obey or not. He gave them everything they could possibly want and only the one restriction to give them a chance to love Him by keeping His commandment. Remember the scripture in 1John..."for this is what the love of God means..that you keep my commandments..." It was true in the Garden as well. What did Yahweh tell them? If you eat from the tree (He said not to) you will positively die...Period. He never said they would burn in Hellfire, but they would cease to exist. I believe they went to the second death Rev. 21:8 because they were perfect and chose to disobey. That is why Satan also goes to the second death. All men who died in sin because they were born in sin (imperfection) get a second chance. But this shows that even perfect humans and angels can choose to rebel. Yahweh offers salvation to everyone born to our original parents, but they must do their part. Choose Life. Lydiah
..Would it be so easy to lose His first persons? (Any persons?) His first children..? So very many forget that He is Perfect! (Surely?!)
How can Perfect lose anything? :HeartThrob: :cloud9:
He has engineered things just as
He has - the blueprint being that all will choose Him! Where does it say after death no hope? ...Please tell me anyone and all, if you know of a verse that could be thought to say after death no possibility of hope. I can only think of one - when Jesus told the Pharisees "unless you repent, you will die in your sins". So? Doesn't that simply mean they will rise still in their sins/imperfection/"missing the mark"? To carry it further is to go beyond what was said (imo).
Lately I've been noticing the phrase "agelasting judgment" - now I know this includes "perpetual" as a possibility.. but I've been seeing it as
"the agelasting judgment", and
"agelasting judgment 'day'" { :dontknow: Can't help it! If I'm wrong about the Great White Throne Judgment being an age (of 500 years) I'll be totally shocked! :mshock: And only at the very end is said "those not believing will go to the 2nd death - ageduring" -- So if I never heard of Jesus before I died, and I find myself awakened from my grave, and witness and live through the intense review of all things/mankind's history (great 'day' of review to reaLLy drive home the lesson).. and all within and before the glorious radiance of God's holiness and purity.. I'm not going to "believe"? Surely(?) the lesson of this life - the story of each person's life, the same story of all nations and centuries, etc.. The same story and lesson over and over, personal and collective/global.. Apocalypse, the unveiling. In that anything not built upon and in Yahweh cannot stand, remain, endure.. It can only crash and burn.
I didn't mean to be so long winded.. :mblush:
[/i]
Quote from: AlfredWang on July 04, 2016, 07:43:32 PM
Copy-n-paste from my Facebook Timeline:
Romans 9:14-16 (My rough cut – with emphasis mine)
God's good will (not humans' freewill) justified by Scripture:
9:14 Then, we will speak [out] what? NO unrighteousness with the God (YHWH)? Become NOT;
9:15 for He utters [to] the Moses, "I will have mercy [unto] whom I may have mercy, and I will have compassion [unto] whom I may have compassion."
9:16 Then, [it is] then not of the [one] desiring, neither of the [one] running, but of the God having mercy.
Exodus 33:19 (ESV – with CORRECTION mine)
And He said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you My name 'YHWH.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
Romans 9:17-18 (My rough cut – with emphasis mine)
God's will (not humans' freewill) to the whole world justified by Scripture:
9:17 For the Scripture utters [to] the Pharaoh, "That TO this it I arouse [out] thee, so that I would show forth in you the [dynamic] power of Me, and so that he would be declared the name of Me in all the earth."
9:18 So then [unto] whom He desires, He has mercy; BUT [unto] whom He desires, He hardens.
Exodus 9:13-16 (ESV)
13 Then YHWH said to Moses, "Rise up early in the morning and present yourself before Pharaoh and say to him, 'Thus says YHWH, the Almighty of the Hebrews, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me.
14 ................
15 ................
16 But for this purpose I have raised you (Pharaoh) up, to show you My power, so that My name (YHWH) may be proclaimed in all the earth.
Romans 9:19-21 (My rough cut – with emphasis mine)
God's will/way/trial/etc. should not be challenged!
9:19 Then, you will speak [out] [to] me, "[Then] why yet He finds fault? for who finds fault [with] the preference of His?
19:20 ................
19:21 ................
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Why are there tares?
...."so that My name (YHWH) may be proclaimed in all the earth."
It's so 'simple' really.. to be a rational creature is to, sooner or later, have the ability to make choices. But He surely is both life and perfection, so to choose anything in any small way, in thought, word or deed, which differs with what He chooses, and we become imperfect, the opposite of life. The very real potential for the world and for every one of us, is to perish.
But "God is the savior of all". Jesus being "the savior of the world". (Such a simple message and lesson, but so obscured!! Presently, that is. :gsmile: )
'They' forget, perfect makes no mistakes, can lose nothing.. He's
perfectly able to bring about, cause to happen, fashion it, that ultimately all choose Him/Life/Perfection. ..At the same time? I believe there will be plenty of weeping and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness (for a time) for those most despicable of human abusers. History.. is such a sad lesson..
Quote from: darryl on July 05, 2016, 10:12:42 AM
the Bible repeatedly says Jesus is the Savior of the world..either He is or He is not...hellists call the Bible into question by their stubborn insistence that many if not most will be lost..how can most be lost if He is the savior of the world ?..I prefer to take the Bible at it's word...that, ultimately, ALL will find salvation in and through Jesus Christ. :dsunny:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! :smile:
n discussing eschatology from a UR standpoint we must ask ourselves some questions 1) does want to save ALL ?..answer = yes 2 Peter 3:9 ►The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not willing (act. in Greek, 'Boulomenos' = resolutely resolving ) that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God resolutely resolves to save ALL. 2) has God got the power and ability to save all ?....answer =yes, with God ALL things are possible ( Matthew 19:26 )....3) does God always get what He wants ? answer= yes, Psalm 135:6 ►The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.2 Chronicles 20:6► He said:Yahweh, the God of our ancestors, are You not the God who is in heaven,and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand, and no one can stand against You.Job 42:2►I know that You can do /anything and no plan of Yours can be thwarted.4) is the will of a person to reject God stronger than God's will to save them ?...answer= No, we have already seen that it's God's resolve to save all and noone can stand against Him......in this world a persons will is 'Fallen' like every thing else, as a result of the Fall....a persons will is affected by external circumstances, upbringing, matters beyond someones control...after death the Lord will heal the Will, restore it (the Bible talks about the restoration of ALL things ) so after death , unlike now, a person will be able to recognize just who Jesus is and will reach out to the 'Father of spirits' (Hebrews 12:9 ) in repentance through the Lord Jesus Christ and be reconciled.BTW, the Bible doesn't say anywhere that this present life is our only chance to find and accept Christ....it says after death 'the judgement' not eternal hell or annihilation.
Hi DARYL
That's a very well-thought out argument for UR. I'm not sure how one would argue against against your points and conclusion as you backed up everything with the Word of God and you seem to cover all possible objections.
Thanks for that. It gives me more hope in UR
but then I wonder about the idea that God cannot act outside His Law and what if His Law is that unrepetant sin has to be eternally punished?
Andrew
John 1:29 Young's Literal Translation
'on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, 'Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world';
TAKING AWAY = Strongs Concordance no. 142 [e] αἴρων=airōn
airōn = taking away αἴρων= Verb – Present Participle Active-
Jesus is actively taking away the sin of the world !.....I believe this could mean each new generation,replacing the prior one, experiences it's sin 'taken away', in a very real sense.This blows me away !.