Our position of nonviolence as Christians?

[fullarmor2]

     I  understand that as Christians we are called to be nonviolent.     I just got done watching a program about some peace activists who were promoting TOTAL nonviolence in the name of Jesus.  More than once they referred to Jesus' nonviolent example and his teachings against violence.  I will say that I had a lot of respect for them and I agreed with a lot of what they had to say.  After all,  God's kingdom will be nonviolent.  So really these peace people are fighting for something that God wants also.   The only thing is,  evil still exists, and its getting worse all the time.  But then again, evil existed during Jesus' time,  and yet he was nonviolent period.   What do you all think about the subject of nonviolence?  It is an attribute of Jesus which we humans have not acquired yet.

[martincisneros]

The problem with things like this is the focusing on one principle of the Covenant of Christ and not on the whole Covenant.  In context, and doing it the way that He wanted it done, by grace, faith, hope, and love in a context of abiding in Him and His Word abiding in us, perfectly (which isn't hard), then the shield of faith should wrap around you to where no one can touch you.  Christian people tend to be so incredibly supernaturally negative that all they focus on are the martyr testimonies and never look through the tens of thousands of Christians that have been supernaturally kept out of harm's way by God giving His angels charge over them according to Psalm 91 and various statements of the New Testament.  You can find those throughout Christian history if you're not caught up with the blood and guts of history like all of the rest of the vampires that can't seem to ever find anything else in history. 

Probably more of 'em have been delivered than have been slaughtered and turned into Gentile sandwiches.  We're here to testify to the truth in love, otherwise when we got saved we would have gone straight to heaven 'cause that's the only reason we're needed here for.  Nothing else matters except for delivering a truthful testimony, in love, as when Christ Jesus gave the good testimony before Pontius Pilate.  St. Paul's one of the very few that ever caught on to what a new creation in Christ was capable of growing towards if they'd stop goofing off and yielding to their emotions and start caring about how others feel more than they care about how they themselves feel.  St. Paul summarized the whole aim of the Christian life in 1Corinthians 11:1.  Lord Jesus grabbed me by the shirt this evening and was sternly rebuking me for being too cowardly to say that with conviction.  So, that's what 2009 is about for me; being able to say that without choking to death on my own spit. :faint:

Christianity is meant to be very, very violent, according to Romans 13, 1Corinthians 9, 2Corinthians 10, Ephesians 6, and 2Timothy 2, among other passages.  Violence is the only way to go, when you know how to attack in the way that Christ Jesus did after the murder of John the Baptist.  Violence is what Jesus did immediately after cleaning out the Temple with the whip.  To prove He wasn't the least bit angry, He immediately started healing people.  If you've ever done much healing ministry, then you know that there's nothing more tender than that, with the exception of ruining a wake by raising 'em from the dead.  Christianity is meant to be very, very, very violent, but not against flesh and blood.  I pray that everyone that has been a Christian for a really long while, but has never cast out demons is put into a position by the Holy Spirit to where they can't get out of 2009 without having to do that.  You haven't had any fun until you've come out of something like that singing at the top of your lungs about your name being written in the Lamb's book of life.

[jabcat]

I guess I shouldn't admit that I have a concealed carry permit?  :mblush:.  Personally, I agree, our very best protection is our Father's presence, and especially on a personal level, I believe we need to turn the other cheek...God's actually been working with me lately on that very thing.  Seems to me though (which may be wrong) there may be a time to protect your family or others from a maniac with a gun or knife who has the intent to rape your daughter/wife, etc.  I haven't researched this, I need to, but I do recall the verse where Jesus told one of the disciples to bring his sword, didn't he?  I'm going to look at that.  I do carry, but I'll admit, I sometimes wonder about it.

Here's where I currently am with this.  Trust God for protection; be prepared in case I might need my "sword", for whatever reason.  If it's God's will, I won't ever have to use it.  On the other hand, it may be his blessing to me/my family that I have it if I ever need to. 

There has been a case or two where a madman opened fire on innocents during a worship service.  Maybe I'm really carnal, but I'm pretty sure if I were in that situation that dude wouldn't be too happy that I was sittin' in service that day  :sigh:.  I never finished it, but I started writing a song recently called "A Little Like Peter"...

[reFORMer]

It is God who said, "Thou shalt not kill."  If I love God with all my heart, mind, soul, strength, then approving of God and His word, with all my strength backing up, "You shall not kill," and that means me . . . I have the principle of self-defense and just wars.

[martincisneros]

I guess I shouldn't admit that I have a concealed carry permit?  :mblush:.

A lot of theologians since the Reformation wouldn't have it any other way 'cause of the provide for your household or being worse than an infidel passage and lots of other passages.  Just depends on where you live and what God's given you the most peace about where that's concerned.  I've been wanting one.  In Texas, if you emptied every gun, in a house full of guns, into a burglar you couldn't be prosecuted.  Burglaries have gotten bad enough in the D/FW area to where I'm glad 'cause lots of women have babies or are pregnant or there winds up being a dozen other reasons why if your faith isn't to that level, then you better be able to blow their heads completely off. 

It's like faith in the Word for your health and healing.  You have to develop it daily over time, but if you haven't, you had better get your rear end down to the emergency room if your lower right side starts hurting like nobody's business.  All of the principles of the Word are daily activities or the power won't be there when you need it and you better know what the next best thing is in each case.

[Molly]

I've been in three of those situations where I was saved supernaturally.  In one of them, I was preparing to kick my attacker down two flights of stairs ( a two story drop straight down) when I heard a voice say, 'that will kill him.'  So I didn't do it.  God sent an 'angel' instead to scare him off.  I am very grateful to not have that on my conscience.

I consider the second amendment very important because it acts as a deterrant to tyrants and robbers.  In places where people are known to have guns, there is less crime.  The first thing a dictator does is disarm the population.  Our founders knew what they were doing.   Concealed carry may have saved 33 souls in the Virginia Tech incident.   As it was, they were sitting ducks for a madman.

Meanwhile, we seem to have been embroiled in several 'pre-emptive' wars in the last several years.  I'll leave it to you history buffs to figure out the last country to use that strategy.  But, this has nothing to do with Christianity, although Christians might think so.  Jesus commands us to love our enemies.  There's no two ways about it.  And the fact that the most powerful nation in history, a country that really has nothing to fear from any other country in the world, can't manage that much is...well...shameful.

[jabcat]

LOL and praise be to God...all three of you, good posts  :thumbsup:.  I work from 4 PM to 4 AM in downtown St. Louis.  There have been over 150 homicides here this year.  I've had multiple people on foot try to stop my car.  For awhile in the smaller community in which I live, burglars were finding ways into people's houses while they were sleeping.  Honestly, right now, unless God were to make it very clear to me, I would refuse to be without a firearm in my house.  And when I'm out, especially in the city, I have one on my person.

On the other hand, if you PM me right now and cuss me out, I really believe my responsibility is to treat you kindly, lovingly, try to reason with you, and if that doesn't work, then work on forgiving, loving, and praying for you.  I'm generally pretty lousy at that, but that's my goal, and where God has been teaching me to.

God's blessing, James.

[Paul Hazelwood]

     I  understand that as Christians we are called to be nonviolent.     I just got done watching a program about some peace activists who were promoting TOTAL nonviolence in the name of Jesus.  More than once they referred to Jesus' nonviolent example and his teachings against violence.  I will say that I had a lot of respect for them and I agreed with a lot of what they had to say.  After all,  God's kingdom will be nonviolent.  So really these peace people are fighting for something that God wants also.   The only thing is,  evil still exists, and its getting worse all the time.  But then again, evil existed during Jesus' time,  and yet he was nonviolent period.   What do you all think about the subject of nonviolence?  It is an attribute of Jesus which we humans have not acquired yet.

Ro 12:17 To no one render evil instead for evil, making ideal provision in the sight of all humanmen,

Ro 12:18 if possible that which comes out from yourselves. Being at peace with all mankind,


To me as many other things there is a balance and there is a reason for the words of scripture.  The words  "If possible" is not just a page filler.   

Peter was not told he was sinning when he raised the sword to the soldiers,  he was only told that it would be futile to do so.

That perhaps is the reasoning to want to be peaceful and I acknowledge that to the best of our ability we should try to be.

The mennonite religion embraces total passivity, meaning even if someone break into your home and rapes and kills your entire family, the Godly person will stand by and not raise a finger to stop it. 

Well, as far as I am concerned, God will have to just punish me for stopping a criminal act if indeed that is sin.  But, I do not believe that is rendering Evil for Evil, it is stopping it.

I believe standing up against evil and not taking the position of revenge and hatred towards the people perpetrating it is   "making ideal provision in the sight of all humanmen".

[Pierac]

Mat 10:16  Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

[alihaymeg]

This is very subjective. You could probably find a number of reasons to justify any stance on the subject.

I can't recall any account of Jesus ever doing bodily harm to anyone. He kicked a few table's butts, but He never struck anyone else even in self defense.

I think there are few rules that are absolute.  The point is to do everything within our power to walk in love. Don't stand by and let someone hurt your family, but do everything you can to resolve the situation without violence.

Having a gentle spirit goes a long way. I played music in bars for almost 18 years, and in all that time I was never involved in one of the many bar fights I've been witness to. Read Proverbs. "A kind word turns away wrath."

[alihaymeg]

They can't take your guns away. Read the bill of rights. You are allowed to poses as much armament and ammunition as one person can carry on their person. That is guaranteed. The message you keep hearing about this mysterious force that's going to try to take your guns is just a fear tactic. It's much like the people perpetuating the Hell doctrine. They want you to vote a certain way or believe a certain way so they appeal to your sense of fear.

Who is the "Ceaser" to which we should give our taxes then? Jesus wasn't talking about a certain person or entity. He was simply saying, "Do what you are required to do by those that govern you". We are to obey the laws of the land. Don't listen to all of that alarmist propaganda.

[alihaymeg]

I oppologize if I offended you with that little tirade. I'm sure there is some ligitimate reason for concern regarding some of these things.

I'm just bombarded with people every day talking about dropping bombs on the middle East and turning it into a big parking lot, and other rediculous crap like that.

I just think it's funny that people are willing to buy a bottle of water for $2.00 that they could get out of the tap for 3 cents, but they complain about the price of a gallon of gas. Especially people driving big honkin vehicles that get 8 miles to the gallon. At some point we are all going to have to learn to conserve.

Yes, I'm one of those liberal idealistic idiots. Tree huggin Hippie, that's me.

[Zeek]

They can't take your guns away. Read the bill of rights. You are allowed to poses as much armament and ammunition as one person can carry on their person. That is guaranteed. The message you keep hearing about this mysterious force that's going to try to take your guns is just a fear tactic. It's much like the people perpetuating the Hell doctrine. They want you to vote a certain way or believe a certain way so they appeal to your sense of fear.

Who is the "Ceaser" to which we should give our taxes then? Jesus wasn't talking about a certain person or entity. He was simply saying, "Do what you are required to do by those that govern you". We are to obey the laws of the land. Don't listen to all of that alarmist propaganda.

So you'll use the constition (which is under attack) to assure me on bearing arms but you nullify it when you dont understand the power of *congress* to COIN was given away to "private bankers" who arent to govern us BECAUSE they are not FEDERAL but deceptively use that name though they are PRIVATE.

They are no more federal then federal express. Have you at all looked into the vast amount of information on the federal reserve everyones finally getting an eye opener on?

You honestly dont know me too well to assume I'm unaware of our rights to bear arms. The Soveriengty of this nation will be lost under the NAU (North American Union, aka SPP) have you at all looked into that? Its accepted as mainstream now when it was laughed at last year, same as folks were turning their ears away from the economic crises folks were warning others about.

WHO is the alarmists? Was it the guy who told me that gas (when it was $1.50 a gallon) would go to $4.00 a gallon? Was he THAT alarmist (and liar to me)? Was he deceived when in July 27th when he told me a barrel of oil would go below $50 a barrel and remain there for 6-9 months (as it is now) THEN soon after we would be praying for $4.00 a gallon? Hmmm I dont know, the first two were right on the money, got a few months to go to see another yo yo action he's been such an "alarmist" about :grin: What a truthful liar he was lol WHO is the alarmist? Colin powel talking bout a generated crises too? How bout Joe Biden (unknowing speaking in the same accord)?  How about Ron Paul or Peter Schiff, how about Celente? Are they unreliable kooks over matters they have proven discerning time and again on things like this?

Such alarmists :grin: Just to name a minute few

How bout Noah for that matter  :grin:

Heck what does God say, if any man see the sword coming ...say nothing??

Just whisper sweet nothings in their ears?

Noah was just a conspiracy theorist listening to alarmists.

Im not afraid Im prepared I THOUGHT at first they were crazy and I SAID SO and I also apologized because Im not one who will not research a thing to death and thank God I wasnt afraid of the mocking to the point I feared what others would say about "me" that I compromised my own searching or words to please those who would laugh (even as I did).

Short time will tell :thumbsup:

So tell me Kim, what will happen to the stock market in the next two years based on your research, "further die/drop, or rebound".  Money can be made either way, just need to be on the right side. 

any thots

z

[Molly]

I had no idea ...I didnt know ...I wasnt informed ...

Are you saying you had no idea about any of this stuff until God put you in bed for 11 weeks with nothing better to do than learn the truth?  LOL.  I love it.  Is that what you're saying?  God is Wonderful, isn't he?


Many have been following these developments for decades.  It is a constant battle, as darkness contends to snuff out all light in the world.  Once you start looking at things closely the mask falls away, the scales fall from your eyes, and nothing is ever the same.  But, most don't take the time.  And, most don't have the courage.

He promised that he would lead us into all truth.  And, he does.  There's no escaping truth once you are open to it because nothing else makes any sense to a sane mind.


In these days God has given us an amazing world wide interactive mind on the internet--(they are working hard to shut that down, too).  The truth is at your fingertips, and one mind is working tirelessly to expose it.

Could it make a difference?  If a critical mass is reached, if the '100th monkey' picks up the fruit and washes it in the river, yes it could.   Because once the 100th monkey does it, they all do it.   If you can no longer fool people, there is hope.  And, God has promised us that someday, that will be the case.  So I wait, and I hope.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

[Taffy]

you have been catching up aint ya sis...

It seems Issues are More open In the Uk..doesnt come as a shock...

:icon_flower:

[Molly]

I'm one of the last to know because I only read scripture I would never turn on the TV or get involved in the things of this world EVER my circumstances (whether divinely arranged or not) pushed me into this in ways beyond my control because I certainly had no inclination (whatsoever) to even TOUCH upon them.

You won't get any of this from TV because it is completely controlled, so you haven't missed anything by not watching TV.  God showed this to you.  Even when you lay it out in front of people in the easiest fashion, only a very few will walk through the fire to accept it.  Truth burns our hearts and minds when we learn that everything we know is wrong.  Not many are willing to go there, unless they are forced to go there.   We are not yet forced, it is happening by increments, in baby steps, and still there are those who are fighting tirelessly against it--unknown and unnamed heros who have taken the command of Jesus to heart--take up your cross and follow me.  We will never know how many have died in the pursuit of bringing truth to light.

Jesus means for us to be free, to live in the light, to have abundant life.  That's why I keep hoping he will get us there, because we are there now in actuality if not in reality.  All we have to do is stand up and grasp it.   Yes, it could be the days of Noah.  I have thought that, too.  And, I certainly have my quaker oats, lol.  But, it could also be Daniel 2, because Daniel tells us the last empire will fail, --it has feet of clay and iron, and they do not mix.  The only weapon against this monster is the truth.


43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

--Daniel 2

[Molly]

you have been catching up aint ya sis...

It seems Issues are More open In the Uk..doesnt come as a shock...

:icon_flower:

well, why should it shock you?  You still think that you should have a Queen.  :laughing7:

We are not used to thinking of ourselves as landless peasants with NO rights.  :laughing7:

[Taffy]

you have been catching up aint ya sis...

It seems Issues are More open In the Uk..doesnt come as a shock...

:icon_flower:

well, why should it shock you?  You still think that you should have a Queen.  :laughing7:

We are not used to thinking of ourselves as landless peasants with NO rights.  :laughing7:

Hey Molly Joking aside :laughing7:
Tis true about some who walk About with their Head up their Butt and  that still think The Queen Rules...But not so many thesedays, So called Royalty hardly show their faces In public thesedays,..they are far more popular abroad

Theres something about the Brits,,theyll be pushed and pushed and pushed again....BUT then POW..CHECK OUR HISTORY, youll see it...

And Id have you Know, that Robert(s) were one of the Gentry...Check out the name meaning...oh Its me surname.

seems me Great, Great Gran Played away and got writ out the will...so Now Im a Pauper :icon_queen:

[Molly]

you have been catching up aint ya sis...

It seems Issues are More open In the Uk..doesnt come as a shock...

:icon_flower:

well, why should it shock you?  You still think that you should have a Queen.  :laughing7:

We are not used to thinking of ourselves as landless peasants with NO rights.  :laughing7:

Hey Molly Joking aside :laughing7:
Tis true about some who walk About with their Head up their Butt and  that still think The Queen Rules...But not so many thesedays, So called Royalty hardly show their faces In public thesedays,..they are far more popular abroad

Theres something about the Brits,,theyll be pushed and pushed and pushed again....BUT then POW..CHECK OUR HISTORY, youll see it...

And Id have you Know, that Robert(s) were one of the Gentry...Check out the name meaning...oh Its me surname.

seems me Great, Great Gran Played away and got writ out the will...so Now Im a Pauper :icon_queen:

I hope so, I really hope that Spirit prevails.  I've been watching England [and Canada] for years now, because it always happens to you a year or two before it happens to us.  For instance, you got the cameras on every street corner about two years before we did.  It was unthinkable to me when I saw your cameras going up that we would be next but I knew it would happen, because it is easier for them to control things there than here, so it takes them a little longer to implement it here.  Now I have a camera on my sleepy little street corner, the only streetlight in 5 miles, nothing there but trees and a streetlight--and a camera.  I've watched pastors thrown in jail in Canada, and free speech suppressed if somebody doesn't like what they are saying--and that's coming here, too, with our hate crimes  bills.

The difference is--we could stop it in our congress--if only we would wake up as a people and demand that it stop.

[martincisneros]

I've watched pastors thrown in jail in Canada, and free speech suppressed if somebody doesn't like what they are saying

My spiritual father has said that if he says anything Biblically against homosexuality on his television broadcast in Canada, even just one passing remark "that could be interpreted as...," and it's a $250,000 fine.  That was about a decade ago when he said that, so who knows?  Maybe they want more by now!  And I'll guaranty that when the government gets that for so-called hate speech against homosexuals, that the local homosexuals won't see a penny of that going to a single one of their organizations.  That's all government fund raising and you know it.

[Molly]

A lie is a lie whether its told in a church building or whether its told on secular airways to the people and believing lies is not anything any one of us ever wants to do and so whether we have a love for the truth (His words and Himself) or whether we as people in these temporary nations the truth is an important matter lest we cast our vote to an unjust matter in whatever form it takes

Yes, but there's nothing new about any of this.

If you look at what Jesus actually did other than his teaching and his healing, he was in the faces of the oppressive rulers of the society of his day--who happened to be the 'priest set', the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the lawyers, the Scribes.  Has anything changed?  No.   The purpose of power is to perpetrate itself unless you are talking about the power of God.  That is what makes our God so wonderful.  He wants to use all his mighty power for Life!  Whereas, all earthly power is used for death (of someone else so you yourself can remain powerful).

Why do you think they killed him?  He was in reality just a working class poverty stricken shoeless nobody.  Why were they so afraid of him?  What was he doing that forced their hand?

He was in their faces, that's what, telling the truth in a way that nobody could miss it.  And, people were believing him.  He was threatening their power base.

But, his example to us is that this is important, this will change the world--the truth is worth dying for.

[Taffy]

Gotta cook hubby dinner

WOW!..COOK ?, did I hear COOK?.....Thats Food Right sis? :laughing7:

Private Joke Guys :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Have you ever watched "End of America by Naomi Wolfe" before? That was very informative and its a factual historic blueprint studied by all would be tyrants, sorta scary if you ask me, I never thought such a thing could happen here, sure is taking me by surprise because I didnt live back then to be able to see just HOW this happens and I can understand the blindness concerning it and even the denial.

Yes, it's good.  I could have written it myself, as could anyone who has ever studied history.  But, apparently no one has.  Satan has NO imagination.  He just keeps doing the same thing over and over again.  You would think we would get it, eventually.  

Just so you know--I am in complete agreement with everything you are saying.  I support you.  Not sure I'm making that clear.

[martincisneros]

Molly,

Jesus was never poor a day in His life until He went to the Cross (2Corinthians 8:9 He that was rich BECAME...so that...we'd be rich).  John chapter 1 mentions His house that was big enough to have company in:

38Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

Elsewhere, the reason the Son of man had nowhere to lay His head was because the city He was trying to go to rejected His advanced crusade team that tried to set up some meetings in that city.  So, in that city Foxes had holes and birds of the air had nests, but in that city the Son of Man had nowhere to lay His head, so that's why they were about to go to the next city.  In that day the gates of a city were either unanimously opened to someone or unanimously closed and Jesus was simply in a bad spot with having been turned away when someone came wanting to spend time with Him.  Other times He'd take a buscuit and feed thousands.  This was not a poor man.  Soldiers don't shoot dice over cheap rags.

If He was poor in life, then He never kept the commandments of God a day in His life 'cause God said that if you'd obey Him that He'd make you rich.  The Old Testament from cover to cover taught them to never pay the least bit of attention to a poor person's words except in matters of civil justice and in making sure that they had something to eat and wear.  Beyond that, they weren't to be heard.  God's not going to send His Son into a context where God Himself has said that you'd recognize His Son by His wisdom, signs and wonders, and wealth and then make a poor begging wino out of Him.  Without going through every passage on this:

15Now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same poor man.
16Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.  (Ecclesiastes 9:15-16)

And why would Jesus have needed Judas to keep up with His $2.50?  Judas was the treasurer.  Show me a poor man with an accountant these days!  Just show me one and it'll suffice!  And I don't mean his dad, brother, cousin, or uncle.  I mean for real.  A poor man with an accountant watching over so much that nobody knew that he was stealing except for Jesus and Jesus only knew it by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told the disciples to feed the crowd and I believe it was Philip that asked "Do you want us to go and buy $14,000 worth of food?" (i.e. 200 penny worth in the KJV)

It's the last supper and the accountant walks out of the room.  While most people would have thought he just went to the restroom, some of the disciples thought he must have been told by Jesus to go and give something to the poor.  What about Judas screaming that what was poured on Jesus should have been sold and given to the poor?  So, apparently Jesus didn't qualify as the poor for that to be given to.  I could go on and on and on.  Joseph was THE Carpenter when they were contesting Jesus's right to say what He was saying.  There were 3 gifts, but not 3 wisemen.  Those wisemen never traveled in carivans of less than 50.  And they all brought gold and spices!  All of 'em.  And made their presentation to THE King of Kings and THE Lord of Lords.

Wealth attracts wealth.  That's the only reason a dozen CEOs left everything to follow Him.  They could afford it.  When Jesus said that it's hard for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God they THUNDERED at Him "Who then can be saved??"  Sounds like they'd of been rejoicing if they had holes in their shoes or no shoes at all, but they were deeply concerned at what Jesus had said.  And Jesus only reply was, "all things are possible with God.  AND those that have left all to follow Me will receive 100fold in this same lifetime with persecutions (i.e. people criticize wealthy preachers to the present day) and in the world to come eonian life."  Ignorant and unlearned in Pharisaical tradition was the accusation in the book of Acts of Jesus' disciples, but never an accusation of poverty.  St. Paul wasn't poor either 'cause otherwise how is a poor man going to be getting mugged all of the time?  No, he was ready to be taken very seriously by Nero.

The Bible makes absolutely no provision for a poor Ambassador.  Anyone that's ever done two kind deeds for His Majesty or has held two out of town meetings, knows that with the best of intentions and priorities they still need cash and God's grace is sufficient rather than the traditional view of it being insufficient so that they'd have to stay in the hands of the devil.

[alihaymeg]

Wasn't Judas the treasurer of the group? Why do you need a treasurer if you are broke?