Matthew 10:15 confirms different degrees of punishment

[UniversalSceptic]

What I find interesting about this verse is even the Calvinist Matt Slick can't make this scripture into something worse. He even uses the word "seems", not yes or no. To me, UR can rest on that verse alone mainly because what different does different levels of punishment make if all punishment will be eternal?

I do apologize if this has been stated already.

[WhiteWings]

Luke 12:48 But he who does not know and does the thing that is worthy of stripes will be beaten with fewer stripes. For anyone who is given much to him, much is required from him. And to he whom they have committed much to him, much more they will require by his hand.

The max. is 40. We see that in the OT and NT. The max. in daily life was 39.
If someone died because of 40+ lashes the one handling the whip (or his superior) was considered a murderer.

Matthew 10:15  15 Truly I say to you, It will be more tranquil to the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in Judgment Day than for that city.

Matt must read the stuff written by his colleagues. They ETified your verse.
One gets 1000F hell, the other 2000F hell.

[UniversalSceptic]

Luke 12:48 But he who does not know and does the thing that is worthy of stripes will be beaten with fewer stripes. For anyone who is given much to him, much is required from him. And to he whom they have committed much to him, much more they will require by his hand.

The max. is 40. We see that in the OT and NT. The max. in daily life was 39.
If someone died because of 40+ lashes the one handling the whip (or his superior) was considered a murderer.

Matthew 10:15  15 Truly I say to you, It will be more tranquil to the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in Judgment Day than for that city.

Matt must read the stuff written by his colleagues. They ETified your verse.
One gets 1000F hell, the other 2000F hell.

I don't like to make assumptions, but maybe deep deep down in his conscience, Matt knows this verse debunks ET. He just might be just too indoctrinate it to admit it. Denial is a powerful thing. My interest in religion has really forced me to admit some harsh truths to myself, so I can relate. For me bough, the idea of ET just never made much sense to me. That verse was just one of many that had me thinking that ET couldn't be right.

[eaglesway]

The children of Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness "until every unbelieving member perished". This, imo coincides with what  WW shared, as does the 40 days and nights of rain to purge the earth of the "world" in Noah's day because of abundant wickedness among men. There is a maximum amount of kolassis(correction) needed in any given situation, typified by 40 stripes, 40 years, 40 days and nights, etc.

Not every situation requires the maximum.

"The one who knew his master's will and did it not will be beaten with many stripes, the one wwho did not kno will be beaten with few(er)"

[WhiteWings]

Sure not all crimes 'need' 40 lashes.
But why nobody ever gets 40?

2Cor 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

The mot important thing to keep in mind that according to God's sense of justice punishment has limits.

Deut 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then your brother should seem vile to you.





http://xrysostom.blogspot.nl/2006/08/thirty-nine-stripes.html

[eaglesway]

Sure not all crimes 'need' 40 lashes.
But why nobody ever gets 40?

2Cor 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

The mot important thing to keep in mind that according to God's sense of justice punishment has limits.

Deut 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then your brother should seem vile to you.





http://xrysostom.blogspot.nl/2006/08/thirty-nine-stripes.html

:thumbsup:

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

Matt must read the stuff written by his colleagues. They ETified your verse.
One gets 1000F hell, the other 2000F hell.

That is exactly how I would interpret that verse if I were advocating for ET.  I remember seeing a sermon by RC Sproul discussing the degrees of sin along with degrees of Heaven and degrees of Hell.

[Tony N]

What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.

Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.

Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.

I wonder the same thing at times. I have reached the conclusion that they feel the way they do because they were taught the ET belief while growing up. From my experience, it is harder for new believers (and believers who were previously from a different faith) to accept the ET doctrine than it is for people who have been taught that their whole lives. Also, many believers try to put their own personal feelings aside and accept the Bible for what it says regardless of how harsh it may seen.

[eaglesway]

It is also true that the oppression of religious peer pressure and the fear of being dis-fellowshipped; along with being called a heretic and being threatened with eternal torment for questioning eternal torment- keeps many believers in bondage to the deception.

[Tony N]

Not to mention Satan blinds them to the truth.

[eaglesway]

Not to mention Satan blinds them to the truth.

Indeed.

2 Cor. 4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

[Tony N]

Hi eaglesway,
Concerning the god of this world blinding them, it brought to mind a run-in I had with an old friend who used to go to the same non-denomination church I went to back in the 70's.
I posted something on my FaceBook page about God saving all. Almost every time I post about that he has something very detracting to say. The last time he had a YouTube video he posted saying I need to see it. It was entitled "God's Sovereign Will and Man's Sovereign Will." He wanted me to see that man's will can trump God's will so that God will NOT have all mankind to be saved even though 1 Timothy 2:4 says He will.

So we have two sovereign wills in the universe? If that is the case, they both trump each other and by that very means, no will is sovereign.

Since the god of this eon is successful and powerful to blind people to the truth, it must be they do not have wills greater than the god of this eon to thwart his will to blind them.

I'm just kind of talking to myself here or as they say "thinking out loud."

[joeteekay]

Mankind having free will has become for me the biggest deception that Satan has pulled off on humanity.
Bigger than anything else I can think off.
Free will also called "free moral agency". Sounds so convincing and self-righteous, deciding for oneself what is right and wrong.
All started with the garden of Eden.

:2c:

[eaglesway]

Free will isnt righteous if it isnt used righteously, hence, discipleship. While I dont believe we choose God, I do believe God gives us a measure of free will so that we can become "friends of God." IMO, this measure is a stewardship in which we grow until we are totally free to walk in the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For instance, did Abraham choose to sacrifice Isaac (thus becoming the friend of God) or did God choose it for him. :o)

If God did the choosing for him, why then is he called God's friend. As I see it friendship is an affintiy of similar heart and intention, and can only be experienced between two mutually free spirits-  offerred independently by both.

Again, I guess, a matter of degrees. :o)

[Seth]

I think God chose to make Abraham his friend, before Abraham was born, just as he chose to make some pots vessels of honor, and others for dishonor.

[eaglesway]

Yes, but where does Abraham come in. Doesnt it seem a little out of sorts with the common language of scripture in the narrations, discourses and exhortations to take the will of man totally out of the equation? It does to me anyway :o)

[Seth]

The way I see it, it's similar to the story of Rehoboam in 1 Kings 12. God had already determined to take away Solomon's rule through his sons as his judgment on Solomon. The way he did that was that Rehoboam made a choice between two advisors, both young and old. The Young advisors told Rehoboam to to make Israel respect him by being hard on them, and cruel. The older advisors told him to be nicer. Rehoboam's choice was to go with the young advisors and be cruel. Israel revolted. Rehoboam lost his crown. Then God comes back into the picture and says, I was the cause of this.

The way I view choice in the Bible, is that our choices are God's tool to complete his plan, and he affects those choices with an invisible hand.

[eaglesway]

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great mystery and a paradox for sure, but I always lean towards the direct statements of scripture. Certainly the elaement of truth is in them as they stand, and in so may places, as I said, the narrations and exhortations express the will of man in relationship to God.

I think we out think God sometimes, and the truth is hidden in the paradox.  What I wonder is this "glorious liberty"? Whatever it is, the one whom the son sets free, is free indeed! Praise God for that!(Whatever it is LOLOL)

[eaglesway]

The way I see it, it's similar to the story of Rehoboam in 1 Kings 12. God had already determined to take away Solomon's rule through his sons as his judgment on Solomon. The way he did that was that Rehoboam made a choice between two advisors, both young and old. The Young advisors told Rehoboam to to make Israel respect him by being hard on them, and cruel. The older advisors told him to be nicer. Rehoboam's choice was to go with the young advisors and be cruel. Israel revolted. Rehoboam lost his crown. Then God comes back into the picture and says, I was the cause of this.

The way I view choice in the Bible, is that our choices are God's tool to complete his plan, and he affects those choices with an invisible hand.

You may very well be right. I dont claim to see thru to the core of it. However, at this time I think that if that were so it would be reflected more often in the narratives, after all, the Holy Spirit is the writer.

[micah7:9]

Mat 10:15  Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

For the life of me I cannot find the word "punishment" in the verse. :sigh:

[eaglesway]

For the life f me I can't see how anyone could miss the obvious implication. Wasnt Sodom punished? There punishment will be regarded as less severe than that city of which He speaks in the Day.

[micah7:9]

You maybe correct and I may have overlooked the obvious implication.

[UniversalSceptic]

What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.

Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.

I wonder the same thing at times. I have reached the conclusion that they feel the way they do because they were taught the ET belief while growing up. From my experience, it is harder for new believers (and believers who were previously from a different faith) to accept the ET doctrine than it is for people who have been taught that their whole lives. Also, many believers try to put their own personal feelings aside and accept the Bible for what it says regardless of how harsh it may seen.

Before I say what I am going to say, I want to credit this discovery to Seth, whose article helped me realize this. Anyone can pick up a Bible and read it. Anyone can ask God to help them interpret the Bible, but the key is how do they ask? Every universalist, I've read, originally believed in Eternal Torment, but it troubled them so much that they either asked God if their was another way or even begged for him to kill them. I'm almost certain if ET's pray for help, it's help on how to convince more people that Hell exists.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.

Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.

I wonder the same thing at times. I have reached the conclusion that they feel the way they do because they were taught the ET belief while growing up. From my experience, it is harder for new believers (and believers who were previously from a different faith) to accept the ET doctrine than it is for people who have been taught that their whole lives. Also, many believers try to put their own personal feelings aside and accept the Bible for what it says regardless of how harsh it may seen.

Before I say what I am going to say, I want to credit this discovery to Seth, whose article helped me realize this. Anyone can pick up a Bible and read it. Anyone can ask God to help them interpret the Bible, but the key is how do they ask? Every universalist, I've read, originally believed in Eternal Torment, but it troubled them so much that they either asked God if their was another way or even begged for him to kill them. I'm almost certain if ET's pray for help, it's help on how to convince more people that Hell exists.

That's a great point