What I find interesting about this verse is even the Calvinist Matt Slick can't make this scripture into something worse. He even uses the word "seems", not yes or no. To me, UR can rest on that verse alone mainly because what different does different levels of punishment make if all punishment will be eternal?
I do apologize if this has been stated already.
Luke 12:48 But he who does not know and does the thing that is worthy of stripes will be beaten with fewer stripes. For anyone who is given much to him, much is required from him. And to he whom they have committed much to him, much more they will require by his hand.
The max. is 40. We see that in the OT and NT. The max. in daily life was 39.
If someone died because of 40+ lashes the one handling the whip (or his superior) was considered a murderer.
Matthew 10:15 15 Truly I say to you, It will be more tranquil to the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in Judgment Day than for that city.
Matt must read the stuff written by his colleagues. They ETified your verse.
One gets 1000F hell, the other 2000F hell.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2014, 09:35:52 PM
Luke 12:48 But he who does not know and does the thing that is worthy of stripes will be beaten with fewer stripes. For anyone who is given much to him, much is required from him. And to he whom they have committed much to him, much more they will require by his hand.
The max. is 40. We see that in the OT and NT. The max. in daily life was 39.
If someone died because of 40+ lashes the one handling the whip (or his superior) was considered a murderer.
Matthew 10:15 15 Truly I say to you, It will be more tranquil to the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in Judgment Day than for that city.
Matt must read the stuff written by his colleagues. They ETified your verse.
One gets 1000F hell, the other 2000F hell.
I don't like to make assumptions, but maybe deep deep down in his conscience, Matt knows this verse debunks ET. He just might be just too indoctrinate it to admit it. Denial is a powerful thing. My interest in religion has really forced me to admit some harsh truths to myself, so I can relate. For me bough, the idea of ET just never made much sense to me. That verse was just one of many that had me thinking that ET couldn't be right.
The children of Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness "until every unbelieving member perished". This, imo coincides with what WW shared, as does the 40 days and nights of rain to purge the earth of the "world" in Noah's day because of abundant wickedness among men. There is a maximum amount of kolassis(correction) needed in any given situation, typified by 40 stripes, 40 years, 40 days and nights, etc.
Not every situation requires the maximum.
"The one who knew his master's will and did it not will be beaten with many stripes, the one wwho did not kno will be beaten with few(er)"
Sure not all crimes 'need' 40 lashes.
But why nobody ever gets 40?
2Cor 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
The mot important thing to keep in mind that according to God's sense of justice punishment has limits.
Deut 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then your brother should seem vile to you.
http://xrysostom.blogspot.nl/2006/08/thirty-nine-stripes.html
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 13, 2014, 08:14:10 AM
Sure not all crimes 'need' 40 lashes.
But why nobody ever gets 40?
2Cor 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
The mot important thing to keep in mind that according to God's sense of justice punishment has limits.
Deut 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then your brother should seem vile to you.
http://xrysostom.blogspot.nl/2006/08/thirty-nine-stripes.html
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2014, 09:35:52 PM
Matt must read the stuff written by his colleagues. They ETified your verse.
One gets 1000F hell, the other 2000F hell.
That is exactly how I would interpret that verse if I were advocating for ET. I remember seeing a sermon by RC Sproul discussing the degrees of sin along with degrees of Heaven and degrees of Hell.
What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.
Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.
Quote from: Tony N on July 23, 2014, 11:15:49 PM
What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.
Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.
I wonder the same thing at times. I have reached the conclusion that they feel the way they do because they were taught the ET belief while growing up. From my experience, it is harder for new believers (and believers who were previously from a different faith) to accept the ET doctrine than it is for people who have been taught that their whole lives. Also, many believers try to put their own personal feelings aside and accept the Bible for what it says regardless of how harsh it may seen.
It is also true that the oppression of religious peer pressure and the fear of being dis-fellowshipped; along with being called a heretic and being threatened with eternal torment for questioning eternal torment- keeps many believers in bondage to the deception.
Not to mention Satan blinds them to the truth.
Quote from: Tony N on July 24, 2014, 06:09:51 PM
Not to mention Satan blinds them to the truth.
Indeed.
2 Cor. 4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Hi eaglesway,
Concerning the god of this world blinding them, it brought to mind a run-in I had with an old friend who used to go to the same non-denomination church I went to back in the 70's.
I posted something on my FaceBook page about God saving all. Almost every time I post about that he has something very detracting to say. The last time he had a YouTube video he posted saying I need to see it. It was entitled "God's Sovereign Will and Man's Sovereign Will." He wanted me to see that man's will can trump God's will so that God will NOT have all mankind to be saved even though 1 Timothy 2:4 says He will.
So we have two sovereign wills in the universe? If that is the case, they both trump each other and by that very means, no will is sovereign.
Since the god of this eon is successful and powerful to blind people to the truth, it must be they do not have wills greater than the god of this eon to thwart his will to blind them.
I'm just kind of talking to myself here or as they say "thinking out loud."
Mankind having free will has become for me the biggest deception that Satan has pulled off on humanity.
Bigger than anything else I can think off.
Free will also called "free moral agency". Sounds so convincing and self-righteous, deciding for oneself what is right and wrong.
All started with the garden of Eden.
:2c:
Free will isnt righteous if it isnt used righteously, hence, discipleship. While I dont believe we choose God, I do believe God gives us a measure of free will so that we can become "friends of God." IMO, this measure is a stewardship in which we grow until we are totally free to walk in the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For instance, did Abraham choose to sacrifice Isaac (thus becoming the friend of God) or did God choose it for him. :o)
If God did the choosing for him, why then is he called God's friend. As I see it friendship is an affintiy of similar heart and intention, and can only be experienced between two mutually free spirits- offerred independently by both.
Again, I guess, a matter of degrees. :o)
I think God chose to make Abraham his friend, before Abraham was born, just as he chose to make some pots vessels of honor, and others for dishonor.
Yes, but where does Abraham come in. Doesnt it seem a little out of sorts with the common language of scripture in the narrations, discourses and exhortations to take the will of man totally out of the equation? It does to me anyway :o)
The way I see it, it's similar to the story of Rehoboam in 1 Kings 12. God had already determined to take away Solomon's rule through his sons as his judgment on Solomon. The way he did that was that Rehoboam made a choice between two advisors, both young and old. The Young advisors told Rehoboam to to make Israel respect him by being hard on them, and cruel. The older advisors told him to be nicer. Rehoboam's choice was to go with the young advisors and be cruel. Israel revolted. Rehoboam lost his crown. Then God comes back into the picture and says, I was the cause of this.
The way I view choice in the Bible, is that our choices are God's tool to complete his plan, and he affects those choices with an invisible hand.
Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great mystery and a paradox for sure, but I always lean towards the direct statements of scripture. Certainly the elaement of truth is in them as they stand, and in so may places, as I said, the narrations and exhortations express the will of man in relationship to God.
I think we out think God sometimes, and the truth is hidden in the paradox. What I wonder is this "glorious liberty"? Whatever it is, the one whom the son sets free, is free indeed! Praise God for that!(Whatever it is LOLOL)
Quote from: Seth on July 25, 2014, 01:59:13 AM
The way I see it, it's similar to the story of Rehoboam in 1 Kings 12. God had already determined to take away Solomon's rule through his sons as his judgment on Solomon. The way he did that was that Rehoboam made a choice between two advisors, both young and old. The Young advisors told Rehoboam to to make Israel respect him by being hard on them, and cruel. The older advisors told him to be nicer. Rehoboam's choice was to go with the young advisors and be cruel. Israel revolted. Rehoboam lost his crown. Then God comes back into the picture and says, I was the cause of this.
The way I view choice in the Bible, is that our choices are God's tool to complete his plan, and he affects those choices with an invisible hand.
You may very well be right. I dont claim to see thru to the core of it. However, at this time I think that if that were so it would be reflected more often in the narratives, after all, the Holy Spirit is the writer.
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
For the life of me I cannot find the word "punishment" in the verse. :sigh:
For the life f me I can't see how anyone could miss the obvious implication. Wasnt Sodom punished? There punishment will be regarded as less severe than that city of which He speaks in the Day.
You maybe correct and I may have overlooked the obvious implication.
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on July 23, 2014, 11:23:10 PM
Quote from: Tony N on July 23, 2014, 11:15:49 PM
What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.
Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.
I wonder the same thing at times. I have reached the conclusion that they feel the way they do because they were taught the ET belief while growing up. From my experience, it is harder for new believers (and believers who were previously from a different faith) to accept the ET doctrine than it is for people who have been taught that their whole lives. Also, many believers try to put their own personal feelings aside and accept the Bible for what it says regardless of how harsh it may seen.
Before I say what I am going to say, I want to credit this discovery to Seth, whose article helped me realize this. Anyone can pick up a Bible and read it. Anyone can ask God to help them interpret the Bible, but the key is how do they ask? Every universalist, I've read, originally believed in Eternal Torment, but it troubled them so much that they either asked God if their was another way or even begged for him to kill them. I'm almost certain if ET's pray for help, it's help on how to convince more people that Hell exists.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on August 04, 2014, 05:10:59 PM
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on July 23, 2014, 11:23:10 PM
Quote from: Tony N on July 23, 2014, 11:15:49 PM
What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.
Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.
I wonder the same thing at times. I have reached the conclusion that they feel the way they do because they were taught the ET belief while growing up. From my experience, it is harder for new believers (and believers who were previously from a different faith) to accept the ET doctrine than it is for people who have been taught that their whole lives. Also, many believers try to put their own personal feelings aside and accept the Bible for what it says regardless of how harsh it may seen.
Before I say what I am going to say, I want to credit this discovery to Seth, whose article helped me realize this. Anyone can pick up a Bible and read it. Anyone can ask God to help them interpret the Bible, but the key is how do they ask? Every universalist, I've read, originally believed in Eternal Torment, but it troubled them so much that they either asked God if their was another way or even begged for him to kill them. I'm almost certain if ET's pray for help, it's help on how to convince more people that Hell exists.
That's a great point
When thinking of eternal torment and those that still believe in that way of thinking, as they are taught , by religious leaders
not knowing any better , I do believe there is a time of correction in some ways but not forever as they believe
they are still judging with contempt [accusations before God ] that is Satans hold on the world by fear of death
but in
Romans 14 we find that the knee bowing and tongue confessing God , is still giving account before the Lord and will be a time of acknowledging sin /error or done in the way that pleases God
I still have many things that I just dont know about and confess this here and now !!
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister ? Or why do you treat them with contempt?
For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.' "
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
Being righteous before the Father, only comes by believing in Jesus Christ and His works of righteousness is our covering and defense
Psalms 69;19 you know how I am scorned,disgraced and ashamed...all my
adversaries are before you. v 33 the Lord hears the needy and does not despise
His captive people.
contempt- scorn-despise
Quote from: Tony N on July 23, 2014, 11:15:49 PM
What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.
Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.
They always try to say something like: YOU choose to go there because you don't obey God, God doesn't like it, but you must be punished... forever.
But why should God, who is Just and Love, would want to punish, or better put torture billions of people with no purpose? :dontknow:
Maybe... He won't. :Peace2:
If we do not kno that God would not do such a horrendous thing. If we do not realize that God could not create such a despicable plan as to choose billions for eternal torment or total destruction. Do we know Him at all?
but..but...but..."whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" :)
We know Him by his mercy. By Him calling us, drawing us, and giving us faith to believe on His Son as Savior - crucified, risen again. Nothing says anywhere that no one is saved or knows Him until they understand UR. :Peace2:
I see a difference between him knowing us in the scriptural sense, and us knowing him in an understanding sense. I don't think people who think eternal damnation is true know Jesus for who he really is. I didn't know who he really was until I understood the real gospel. Until then it was all "love" without any understanding of what it means that Jesus loves. That doesn't mean I don't think I had the spirit, or that I don't think God considered me a son.
I think of it this way: when you were born, did you immediately know who your parents were? Everything starts off hazy and uncertain right? In fact, I don't think we truly know our parents until we grow up.
maybe that"s why the Revelation of Jesus Christ....speaks of the Mystery of God
being revealed.. God has been somewhat of a mystery to most people......consider
this 'God work's in mysterious ways..etc..". Mystery Babylon the great.....
it is written in the scriptures...'surely you are a God that conceals himself"
...I think our beleiving such things..shows more about our heart condition...
definitely not perfected in love..to beleive such things
Quote from: Seth on August 24, 2014, 04:56:58 AM
I see a difference between him knowing us in the scriptural sense, and us knowing him in an understanding sense. That doesn't mean I don't think I had the spirit, or that I don't think God considered me a son.
I think of it this way: when you were born, did you immediately know who your parents were? Everything starts off hazy and uncertain right? In fact, I don't think we truly know our parents until we grow up.
Quote from: sheila on August 24, 2014, 05:10:05 AM
definitely not perfected in love..to beleive such things
I agree with all this. :thumbsup:
I think the scriptures are very simple in what it means to know Him in the sense of being His child/son. That's by grace, when He draws and gives faith to believe. Simply, as a child.
Then....all the other things. Growing in grace and knowledge, being perfected in love, becoming grounded in sound doctrine, taking up our cross, etc. Growing from a babe to a "man". Yes, knowing Him better, more deeply - perhaps understanding more about Him. Although I do like what SteveW posted in another thread about how little we really seem to completely understand...unable to lean to our own understanding. Then we trust - that HE is good and knows what He's doing. Blessings.
To be "saved" is to be conformed to the image of His Son. Do we know Him? Or an idol of man's making- an idol of doctrines and beliefs written in stone. Paul, in 1 Cor 2 and 3 spoke of babies, carnal, born of God but living as natural men, under the influence of the flesh and desire fpr preminence....divided, factious, not understanding who they were or what God desires.
In Hebrews,the writer speaks of those who, when they ought to be teachers, needed to go back and learn the elementary principles of the oracles of God, unable to receive even the milk of the word.
The salvation of all is milk. Can one be "saved" and not know Him? As Seth pointed out, a baby can only kno their parents on a very visceral level. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between carnal babies who are still in diapers and religionists who "have not the Spirit"- having only the letter and their desires to rule others with their doctrines- but we are not to judge, and I am not saying that we should judge them- we carry the gospel and it is to be made known through the foolishness of proclaiming it. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God"
Peter proclaimed, "Be saved fromthis perverse generation"- As in Adam all die soalso in Christ shall all be made alive"- so we are saved out of Adam into Christ, partakers of the divine nature....
But it doesnt always show.
Anyone who believes, or worse yet, insists, or worse yet, rejoices in the idea that God would torment billions forever or utterly destroy them, doesnt kno Him
too well- they are veiled to the tru gospel- How can they see THAT God and be transformed into THAT image? The Holy Spirit is the teacher. He whispers the truth in the innermost hearts of all men. We just proclaim it and trust Him for the rest.
I can proclaim it simply, with confidence, in love. I do not need to force feed it, justify it- or even prove it. The Holy Spirit will bear witness and I can teach the ones who hear and strengthen their faith with instruction.
Being saved is not about heaven and hell- eternal life or torment. It is about Adam and Christ, life and death, spirit vs letter, carnal man versus new creation.
I like the verse where Paul tells Timothy that the foundation of God is "The Lord knows those who are His. and let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity" 2 tim 2:19
Titus 2: 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men. 9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
Worthless.
:HeartThrob: Blessings. I understand much of this the same way :thumbsup: kind'a starting at the bottom, that it's God who calls and chooses, gives faith to believe, does the cleaning up - and without that, we're not living in and enjoying the benefits of the kingdom, and are walking in self-condemnation - not being of benefit (salt lost its savor). There are a few other things we probably agree on below, and some of it we may just see from a different angle - seeing the same things, just describing it or understanding it a little differently. So some of the following is much in agreement, some of it may be one guy's view being a little different from another's and may just continue to do so,
while,
still often not being that far apart in the finality. But some thoughts, as I maybe clarify some things in my own head if not in anybody else's. :laugh: :Peace2: I could probably talk about this a week and still be missing some things and need to understand some things better...
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 09:26:01 AM
To be "saved" is to be conformed to the image of His Son.
I think that could be used as one descriptor, amen. But I believe there are others, and a more elemental one or two. I believe it initially/elementally has to do with crossing the threshold between unbelief and belief on Jesus as Savior, the spiritual new birth, and that that is often the basic context of what's being addressed in many of the scriptures regarding calling on Him, believing in and confessing Him, believing He rose from the dead, "being saved", etc...not
exclusively that ongoing process of salvation of the soul (who we are), growing, maturing, Him overcoming sin in us, living in the kingdom of righteousness peace and joy, and then the eventual outcome of complete salvation, i.e. the receiving of the full promise (being TOTALLY conformed into His image). I see the initial salvation, i.e., crossing from unbelief into belief, receiving Jesus, the new birth as the down payment and price paid, brought about and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto a day of complete renewal. Initial salvation, then a million salvations along the way :).
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 09:26:01 AM
The salvation of all is milk. Can one be "saved" and not know Him? As Seth pointed out, a baby can only know their parents on a very visceral level. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between carnal babies who are still in diapers
But it doesnt always show.
I agree with this, if you're saying many believe, have crossed from unbelief to belief on Jesus as Savior, but have not grown past the rudimentary elements. Still saved, i.e., spiritually reborn, made a child, because God gave them faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - the very basis of what I believe the elemental description of salvation (although I agree, salvation has other meanings, stages, deeper layers [see my signature at bottom of my post]. Yet not developed, or learned more and better doctrine, grown in grace and knowledge, ABLE TO SEE GOD MORE CLEARLY and more fully understand and experience Who He really is. Paul called the carnal, sinning believers at Corinth "saints" - because they were that - believers. Still, he had much to say about their growth and obedience, "cleaning things up", so they'd "live worthy of the high calling" [to which they'd already responded and been made partakers, through grace and His gift of faith, thus the term 'saints'].
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 09:26:01 AM
Anyone who believes, or worse yet, insists, or worse yet, rejoices that God would torment billions forever or utterly destroy them, doesnt know Him too well-
I can be more in agreement with that than that they don't or can't know Him at all, or be His rather than the devil's [*Jn 1:12,13 below] - because again, I think the very fundamental "knowing Him" is about HIS work, i.e., giving faith to believe on Jesus as Savior. I personally see no other requirements than that for the fundamental crossing over from unsaved to saved. But again, I also agree there are many other things involved after that. Either staying carnal and a babe and having "Apostle Paul" smack us around to straighten us out :) (or "turn us over for destruction and salvation) or we're taking up our cross and following Him, dying to self, having other parts of us destroyed, renewed, and saved - attitudes, thoughts, actions, etc - as we seek to follow in obedience. Until the final redemption, the redemption of our bodies.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 09:26:01 AM
Being saved is not about heaven and hell- eternal life or torment. It is about Adam and Christ, life and death, spirit vs letter, carnal man versus new creation.
I like the verse where Paul tells Timothy that the foundation of God is "The Lord knows those who are His. and let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity" 2 tim 2:19
Along with what I've been suggesting, I see 2 things here with the heaven/hell reference. Having become His through the free gift ("saved"); and then what it means to continue to be His and have Him work His works of righteousness in us, i.e. walking with Him ("being saved"). It may not simply be about heaven and hell, but I believe it's about being His or being the devil's - which in itself carries benefits/rewards/opportunities vs. consequences and being still in need of whatever it takes to bring one to kneeling and confessing unto faith/salvation. So IMO, at least in
some sense that's about "heaven" and "hell". Then in the Timothy verse above, I see the 2 things; 1. "who are His", and 2. then "let those depart from iniquity". The initial crossing over, then the continued walking with and in Him. IMO, 1 must come before 2. 1 (new birth, entering the family) so 2 (sanctification, growing, maturing) can occur. Otherwise if 2 is attempted first, I believe we're just "turning over a new leaf", etc., without truly being filled with the Spirit to work His work of redemption and sonship in us.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 09:26:01 AM
they are veiled to the true gospel-
"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are saved...that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures . . ." -1 Corinthians 15:1–4
*12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Quote from: jabcat on August 24, 2014, 10:37:31 AM
:HeartThrob: Blessings. I understand much of this the same way :thumbsup: kind'a starting at the bottom, that it's God who calls and chooses, gives faith to believe, does the cleaning up - and without that, we're not living in and enjoying the benefits of the kingdom, and are walking in self-condemnation - not being of benefit (salt lost its savor). There are a few other things we probably agree on below, and some of it we may just see from a different angle - seeing the same things, just describing it or understanding it a little differently. So some of the following is much in agreement, some of it may be one guy's view being a little different from another's and may just continue to do so, while, still often not being that far apart in the finality. But some thoughts, as I maybe clarify some things in my own head if not in anybody else's. :laugh: :Peace2: I could probably talk about this a week and still be missing some things and need to understand some things better...
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 09:26:01 AM
To be "saved" is to be conformed to the image of His Son.
I think that could be used as one descriptor, amen. But I believe there are others, and a more elemental one or two. I believe it initially/elementally has to do with crossing the threshold between unbelief and belief on Jesus as Savior, the spiritual new birth, and that that is often the basic context of what's being addressed in many of the scriptures regarding calling on Him, believing in and confessing Him, believing He rose from the dead, "being saved", etc...not exclusively that ongoing process of salvation of the soul (who we are), growing, maturing, Him overcoming sin in us, living in the kingdom of righteousness peace and joy, and then the eventual outcome of complete salvation, i.e. the receiving of the full promise (being TOTALLY conformed into His image). I see the initial salvation, i.e., crossing from unbelief into belief, receiving Jesus, the new birth as the down payment and price paid, brought about and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto a day of complete renewal. Initial salvation, then a million salvations along the way :).
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 09:26:01 AM
The salvation of all is milk. Can one be "saved" and not know Him? As Seth pointed out, a baby can only know their parents on a very visceral level. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between carnal babies who are still in diapers
But it doesnt always show.
I agree with this, if you're saying many believe, have crossed from unbelief to belief on Jesus as Savior, but have not grown past the rudimentary elements. Still saved, i.e., spiritually reborn, made a child, because God gave them faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - the very basis of what I believe the elemental description of salvation (although I agree, salvation has other meanings, stages, deeper layers [see my signature at bottom of my post]. Yet not developed, or learned more and better doctrine, grown in grace and knowledge, ABLE TO SEE GOD MORE CLEARLY and more fully understand and experience Who He really is. Paul called the carnal, sinning believers at Corinth "saints" - because they were that - believers. Still, he had much to say about their growth and obedience, "cleaning things up", so they'd "live worthy of the high calling" [to which they'd already responded and been made partakers, through grace and His gift of faith, thus the term 'saints'].
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 09:26:01 AM
Anyone who believes, or worse yet, insists, or worse yet, rejoices that God would torment billions forever or utterly destroy them, doesnt know Him too well-
I can be more in agreement with that than that they don't or can't know Him at all, or be His rather than the devil's [*Jn 1:12,13 below] - because again, I think the very fundamental "knowing Him" is about HIS work, i.e., giving faith to believe on Jesus as Savior. I personally see no other requirements than that for the fundamental crossing over from unsaved to saved. But again, I also agree there are many other things involved after that. Either staying carnal and a babe and having "Apostle Paul" smack us around to straighten us out :) (or "turn us over for destruction and salvation) or we're taking up our cross and following Him, dying to self, having other parts of us destroyed, renewed, and saved - attitudes, thoughts, actions, etc - as we seek to follow in obedience. Until the final redemption, the redemption of our bodies.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 09:26:01 AM
Being saved is not about heaven and hell- eternal life or torment. It is about Adam and Christ, life and death, spirit vs letter, carnal man versus new creation.
I like the verse where Paul tells Timothy that the foundation of God is "The Lord knows those who are His. and let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity" 2 tim 2:19
Along with what I've been suggesting, I see 2 things here with the heaven/hell reference. Having become His through the free gift ("saved"); and then what it means to continue to be His and have Him work His works of righteousness in us, i.e. walking with Him ("being saved"). It may not simply be about heaven and hell, but I believe it's about being His or being the devil's - which in itself carries benefits/rewards/opportunities vs. consequences and being still in need of whatever it takes to bring one to kneeling and confessing unto faith/salvation. So IMO, at least in some sense that's about "heaven" and "hell". Then in the Timothy verse above, I see the 2 things; 1. "who are His", and 2. then "let those depart from iniquity". The initial crossing over, then the continued walking with and in Him. IMO, 1 must come before 2. 1 (new birth, entering the family) so 2 (sanctification, growing, maturing) can occur. Otherwise if 2 is attempted first, I believe we're just "turning over a new leaf", etc., without truly being filled with the Spirit to work His work of redemption and sonship in us.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 09:26:01 AM
they are veiled to the true gospel-
"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are saved...that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures . . ." -1 Corinthians 15:1–4
*12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This has been a wonderful and enlightening thread
and those things Seth and Shelia John and James brought up and out in the open,
to think about are treasures of truth !
and here is how my mind comprehended them after reading ,
Its true that we are understanding the works of salvation ,, and as Seth says we are babes not knowing our parents ,
its the Christ[seed of Christ as a babe ] in you the hope of glory
everyone is a Woman under law first , this salvation process is proved in servitude [ making you chaste virgins for Christ ] the seed to be planted in the womb / mind/ belly of everyone born of the Spirit !
Who is born of the Spirit ? where the Wind / Spirits breath blows upon them leaving the seed/ Word of God made flesh in our minds / hearts and its a spiritual revelation/ the openly know of heavenly things :HeartThrob:
Jesus Christ describes this in John 3 to Nicodemus John 3
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The New Birth
3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [a]signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born
again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born [c]again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever [d]believes will in Him have eternal life.
Oh so much more but stopping for now
Blessings to all
:thumbsup:
And not to be like a broken records but,
the gospel we proclaim is the only gospel ffoundation stones Peter, James, John or Paul ever proclaimed- as tthey received it by revelation from the Chief Cornerstone
In my early days as a Christian I passed through several groups that taught until someone had the revelation as they thought they had it- they could not be saved. This was always my exit point- thanks to the grace of God which teaches me to deny ungodliness, and the Holy Spirit who comforts me and teaches me all truth. I was able to follow that path until the salvation of all was revealed to me- Praise God!
Quote from: eaglesway on August 25, 2014, 01:42:31 AM
In my early days as a Christian I passed through several groups that taught until someone had the revelation as they thought they had it- they could not be saved. This was always my exit point- thanks to the grace of God which teaches me to deny ungodliness, and the Holy Spirit who comforts me and teaches me all truth. I was able to follow that path until the salvation of all was revealed to me- Praise God!
:thumbsup: Its the Lord whom saves , Glory to God !!! :icon_flower:
Give Thanks to the Lord, for He is Good
...20 Thus they exchanged their glory For the image of an ox that eats grass.
21 They forgot God their Savior, Who had done great things in Egypt,
22 Wonders in the land of Ham And awesome things by the Red Sea....
Cross References
Deuteronomy 8:14
then your heart will become proud and you will forget the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Deuteronomy 10:21
He is the one you praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.
Deuteronomy 32:18
You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
Psalm 78:11
They forgot what he had done, the wonders he had shown them.
I see that Rose..exchanging the Glory of God[the salvation of all Israel] for an image
of an ox that eats grass..ox represents strength..and grass flesh....crediting their
deliverance upon the strength of their own flesh[a work of men's hands]....and not of the
benevalence, undeserved kindness, and work of God's hands.
Personally, I hate trying to draw lines between saved and unsaved, knowing God or not knowing God. I spent years trying to figure it out with the line getting bigger in my mind cuz I didn't know where to cut it off till one day when my brain was tired of it I thought "maybe He'll just save everyone", but not thinking that was possible. It was about another year until I came across Romans 5 and then thrilled to death saw that it was true that ALL were included in Christ the second Adam like they were included in the first Adam. Wow, who cares about the details of when, where or how. :banana:
Drawing lines concerning knowing God or not knowing God is indeed precarious, and should never be applied in a personal way, in the form of condemnation. However, there would never have been a need fr Peter to exhort them to "be saved from this perverse generation" if their was no line at all. We may disagree about what "saved' even means. I believe it means to be delivered and healed- made whole..
It is clear to me from the common language of scripture that all will be saved(delivered and healed) but not all are presently delivered and healed(each in his own order). This restoration(deliverance aqnd healing) has already been secured at the cross, but God has ordained that in this age it should be made know thru the foolishness of preaching Christ, "whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration(healing and deliverance) of all things"....
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself and has entrusted us with the "word of reconciliation" and we are reconciling men to God thru the gospel. Therefore we proclaim the reconciliation and also at times, we warn the wicked(in a general way) of the judgment to come- as our faithful high priest did, and as all the apostles did. Our blessed hope is secure for all within the veil, but it is not yet manifested among all men, and will not be for an age or two yet.
2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
So we are not to judge/condemn/pass sentence. The Lord knows those who are His(and not all are His yet, by His own word and plan). We who are His, are learning to walk in the meekness and humility of Christ, in love- but also with courage and boldness.
The meaning of saved, the need for being reconciled to God, not judging others, agreed 100%. Thanks.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 25, 2014, 08:22:28 PM
Drawing lines concerning knowing God or not knowing God is indeed precarious, and should never be applied in a personal way, in the form of condemnation. However, there would never have been a need fr Peter to exhort them to "be saved from this perverse generation" if their was no line at all. 2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
So we are not to judge/condemn/pass sentence. The Lord knows those who are His(and not all are His yet, by His own word and plan). We who are His, are learning to walk in the meekness and humility of Christ, in love- but also with courage and boldness.
Amen. Never to condemn. Jesus said He who doesn't believe is condemned already.
as far as "hating to draw a line" and regarding other aspects of this whole discussion (which is good, it's made me examine some things of my own beliefs - question myself and issues)... I do think we need to know there's a line drawn - but
not drawn by us, that's what God did Himself according to my limited understanding of scripture. For my understanding, it's believe on Jesus as Savior vs. not believe on Jesus as Savior. I think that's where many of the scrips about being saved come down, such as "Q. what must I do to be saved...A. believe and confess Jesus" and "to those who receive Him..believe on His name, He gave the right to become children of God". IMO, if we don't know where a line is, then what are we preaching? Paul said "be ye reconciled to God", and that we are given the ministry of reconciliation. I don't think the above answers every nuance about what it means to be saved, to be delivered, healed, and finally to have the full redemption ("to wit, the redemption of the body" - A. Paul), but I personally believe that's where it "starts", i.e., the blood personally applied when the Holy Spirit draws and brings one from unbelief [and across the line] into belief on Jesus as Savior. Unbeliever, or believer, with the faith given by God through grace, not works of our own. Otherwise, I believe we're just having ideas, philosophies, trying things, rather than having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit working the works of Christ through us, growing and healing us, and bringing us into His likeness (the further works of salvation [some call sanctification].
We are told to examine OURSELVES to see if our calling and election is sure.
I wrote a song called Remind Me (You're Still in Control). It has a line that says, "it seems there's just a few of us that still know Him. Sometimes I question if I do or not..."
Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Amen.
Quote jabcat "I do think we need to know there's a line drawn - but not drawn by us, that's what God did Himself according to my limited understanding of scripture. For my understanding, it's believe on Jesus as Savior vs. not believe on Jesus as Savior."
I agree, because I define salvation as being "in Christ"; "healed, delivered, made whole"; being translated from darkness to light, out of Adam into Christ, saved from the perverse generation in Adam.
I just dont believe I am supposed to judge that, as you said- I am simply to offer the reconciliation provided in Jesus and minister to the poor and the infirm and the suffering.
:thumbsup:
Good thread and I am going to attempt a reply here and hope it deals with what this thread is about. Caution this may be lengthy so bare with me please.
many years ago I was drawn to the Father and had attended a Free Will Baptist church that my in-laws where attending. My wife was constantly trying to get me to go so I finally gave in kicking and screaming the whole way. Well after about 2 or 3 visits God did His thing and I went up front and I was saved according to the churches way. yes the eternal punishment was the main reason I went to the front. was I changed? yes I believe I was!
The church preacher every Sunday yelled and yes I mean yelled you must be saved to escape this ET. he also had rules and things you could not do or things you should do. if you did those things you should not do then you could loose your salvation and if you died before confessing your sin guess where you where going. We are talking things like swimming with boys and girls which he called mixed bathing,could not wear short pants,could not listen to rock music,no long hair,ect.... and the list went on.
Well needless to say I got to the point where it was impossible to live by these rules every single day. I always felt God was mad or angry all the time if I even messed up in doing one of these no nos.
I quit going after about 2 years and my life was a wreck! My son got shot at the age of 8 years old(he did survive) I was divorced shortly after that and I was mad at God and wanted nothing to do with Him.
A few years later my wife and I got re-married and we started attending a nondenominational church and it was like going to a big production with a full orchestra, large screen TV and the preaching was so candy coated that they never spoke of ET and everything was just peachy. Well I still had not found what I was looking for so we stopped going and there again I saw God as angry and out to get me so I just pushed him right out of my mind.
A year or so later I was doing some web searches for a friend on the Catholic faith (trying to show him this belief was wrong) and came across a banner that said something like the Christians hell is not real. I clicked on that and could not believe what I was reading. Could this be true, I asked myself. it was like a ton of bricks had been lifted off of my chest!!
Welll about a year of that and I was so self righteous and thought I was all that ,being given this new found revelation and the fall was hard. I had asked some questions on another UR forum and I was not happy with the answer I got so they banned me. here we go again I thought.
Another few years and I was now so mad at God that even the mention of Him or Jesus would make me sick and angry. God was still out to get me and it got so bad that I had to take meds (which were not prescribed to me) just to sleep at night fearing death or I would die in my sleep.There was that hell thing rearing its ugly head again.
Then one evening I went to bed and prayed, God I just can not do this any more. I need you and I just cannot do this myself. I prayed this a few evenings at bed time. Then one morning I thought I am going to visit the tentmaker site (knew of it from the other Ur site I had been to a few years back) and God preformed a miracle in me! I read several articles and it finally clicked in this noodle of mine that I was going about or seeing this the wrong way all this time.
This whole journey was done to bring me to where God wanted me to be. All the trials and chastising is what it took to get me there to a relationship with Him. He was working on me from day one and this process took several years. I could not see that until just recently and the thing is I am so thankful to the Father for it! He knew exactly what He was doing and what it would take to get me where I am right now. I know He is not finished with me yet and I am sure there will be more to come, but it will be done to perfect me in Him.
I honestly believe salvation is a process and yes it comes immediately when we believe on His name but it has to grow. I am sure the Father deals with each individual differently and He knew exactly what it would take for me. Honestly it was not pleasant but I now understand why it had to be that way.
Am I saved? Yes I believe I am but this took a long time to be done in me.Was I saved the first time I went to Church and walked up front? Yes I believe I was but it had to grow and progress in me. He knew all this He put me through was His the plan for me. Thank you Father!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I still have my days,like most of us I am sure, but one thing is certain, He is still there and working on me and I hope to be able to endure till the end. I am still learning.
thanks for listening.
bob
Thanks for that Bob, I love reading peoples life stories.
Bushy you are very welcome and thank you for reading it.
bob
Thank You for sharing that!! I had ten years in a very legalistic prision/religion....
til I paid my last penny..before He freed me . that expierence broke my faith in my
own self-righteousness..and prepared me to accept His grace and the righteousness
through Christ. He didn't forsake me in there,though, He would come and visit me,
He was with me through it...He preached to the spirits in prison..and because I
was joined/bound to that religious spirit...i was in a cage of unclean birds.
Rev 2;8-11 finally,I heard 'come out of her my people"
Sheila YOU ARE VERY WELCOME AND THANK YOU FOR READING IT!!
it is amazing how he sees us through it all even when we do not realize it at times. also the scriptures have much more meaning to us now and how they apply to our walk/journey with Him. A work in progress so to say :Pray:
welcome from tent!!!! The Lord disciplines and corrects those He loves....we must not give
out when we are corrected in Him. It tests our faith in Him alone..and destroys any
misplaced faith in men or ourselves. faith tested..cleared of dross and worth more then
gold.