Justice -?- ?-

[Molly]

That's interesting.  So you are saying it's the nations that are the pots that are going to be broken into pieces.   That's very interesting.  Here, too?


26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

--Rev 2



Rod of Iron then might be the king's scepter.

[VineBranch]

I LOVE the book of Jonah for that very reason. I remember one of my professors saying Jonah was probably the "worst" prophet in regards to the fact that his heart wasn't for the people, yet he was one of the "best" prophets in that his message was actually incredibly effective. Another one of those divine ironies LOL!

I sometimes feel like Jonah, I can relate.  Something good happened to someone I didn't like because of something I did:  I hate my life thanks God!  I'm gonna sit in my booth and eat that worm when it comes for the gourd, that'll show you.

[VineBranch]

Not that justice was put away, but redefined.  Or resurrected. 

I see that, but to me to be forgiven is to be removed from the consequences of justice.  God loves me and because of that I won't be experiencing those consequences ... Christ experienced them for me, and thus I was removed from them:  there is not justice now, just forgiveness and love.  Justice is no longer an active ingredient in my life.

[VineBranch]

IMO, There is nthing at all odious about justice or judgment(depending on what you mean by judgement perhaps- I mean the discernment and righteous revelation of God)). They are both CLEARLY scriptural definitions of elements of God's character. Therefore they must integrate with the whole love paradigm because, GOD IS LOVE. Yet, in love God is teaching us to be just, as a manifestation of respect for our fellow human beings. Respect is also an element of love. God judges(exposes, reveals, destroys) wickedness and iniquity- as transgressions of His love. He punishes evil doers, as a part of the revelation of His character because He loves. He desires that we would love. He is teaching us to love through forgiveness AND discipline. IMO, We do not step over justice and judgement into love. We step through them into love, as we learn to be more like God who loves justice, and hates iniquity- the transgression of love. He does not, however, hate evil doers, but rather forgives them and loves them even as He disciplines them, in order that eventually they will see the error of their way and the beauty of Hs love. It just doesnt look like love to them when He is doing it(disciplining, judging). Only when the veil is taken away, after they have turned to the Lord, will His justice and His discipline look like love.

"Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me..... Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life."

Fair enough eagle, but could we not say that about Eternal Torment at well?

[Molly]

A sceptre (or scepter in U.S. English) is a symbolic ornamental rod or wand borne in the hand by a ruling monarch as an item of royal or imperial insignia.

Use of a rod or staff as representing authority can be traced to the beginning of Classical Antiquity. Among the early Greeks, the sceptre (Ancient Greek: σκῆπτρον, skeptron, "staff, stick, baton") was a long staff, such as Agamemnon wielded (Iliad, i) or was used by respected elders (Iliad, xviii. 46; Herodotus 1. 196), and came to be used by judges, military leaders, priests and others in authority.


Among the Etruscans, sceptres of great magnificence were used by kings and upper orders of the priesthood, and many representations of such sceptres occur on the walls of the painted tombs of Etruria. The British Museum, the Vatican and the Louvre possess Etruscan sceptres of gold, most elaborately and minutely ornamented.


The Roman sceptre probably derived from the Etruscan. Under the Republic an ivory sceptre (sceptrum eburneum) was a mark of consular rank. It was also used by victorious generals who received the title of imperator, and its use as a symbol of delegated authority to legates apparently was revived in the marshal's baton.

In the Hellenistic period, the biblical Book of Esther mentions the sceptre of the King of Persia.



Sceptres with small shrines on the top are sometimes represented on royal seals, as on the great seal of Edward III, where the king, enthroned, bears such a sceptre, but it was an unusual form; and it is of interest to note that one of the sceptres of Scotland, preserved at Edinburgh, has such a shrine at the top, with little images of Our Lady, Saint Andrew and Saint James the Great in it. This sceptre was, it is believed, made in France about 1536, for James V. Great seals usually represent the sovereign enthroned, holding a sceptre (often the second in dignity) in the right hand, and the orb and cross in the left. Harold appears thus in the Bayeux tapestry.

--Wikipedia

[Molly]

So, you see, these kings and queens of Christian countries already thought they were ruling with a rod of iron [the king's scepter granted to him by Christ].

Were they?  Maybe they were.

[VineBranch]

This Royal Throne of Kings, This Sceptred Isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise ...

Richard II, Act 2, Scene 1

[Molly]

There you go.

Too bad it's becoming a muslin country now.

[Molly]

Not that justice was put away, but redefined.  Or resurrected. 

I see that, but to me to be forgiven is to be removed from the consequences of justice.  God loves me and because of that I won't be experiencing those consequences ... Christ experienced them for me, and thus I was removed from them:  there is not justice now, just forgiveness and love.  Justice is no longer an active ingredient in my life.

I don't think we can be removed from the consequences.  They can be mitigated.  They can be reversed at some point.  We can even be forgiven.  But, we kind of have to walk through the fire of our consequences, don't we?  or we would learn nothing.

[eaglesway]

IMO, There is nthing at all odious about justice or judgment(depending on what you mean by judgement perhaps- I mean the discernment and righteous revelation of God)). They are both CLEARLY scriptural definitions of elements of God's character. Therefore they must integrate with the whole love paradigm because, GOD IS LOVE. Yet, in love God is teaching us to be just, as a manifestation of respect for our fellow human beings. Respect is also an element of love. God judges(exposes, reveals, destroys) wickedness and iniquity- as transgressions of His love. He punishes evil doers, as a part of the revelation of His character because He loves. He desires that we would love. He is teaching us to love through forgiveness AND discipline. IMO, We do not step over justice and judgement into love. We step through them into love, as we learn to be more like God who loves justice, and hates iniquity- the transgression of love. He does not, however, hate evil doers, but rather forgives them and loves them even as He disciplines them, in order that eventually they will see the error of their way and the beauty of Hs love. It just doesnt look like love to them when He is doing it(disciplining, judging). Only when the veil is taken away, after they have turned to the Lord, will His justice and His discipline look like love.

"Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me..... Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life."

Fair enough eagle, but could we not say that about Eternal Torment at well?

Of course not :o) Eternal torment teaches nothing, accomplishes nothing, illuminates nothing, results only in purpose-less pain.

[Molly]

purpose-less pain

Why does that sound so familar?

Welcome to my former life!

[eaglesway]

I can relate.

[ded2daworld]

I just had a thought believe it or not.

If almost all pagans and some christians will not or cannot forgive the simplest slight
from another (Like getting cut off in traffic or not let in in traffic) how would they learn to forgive
by being tortured endlessly - or even for an extraordinary length of time? If humans are concious
would they just forgive and forget what God had done to them? If they are not concious, again we have purposeless
punishment. Who learns anything while they are unconcious?
If one is concious and they know they will be tormented for eternity, I think the only thing they would learn
is that they still hate God - only now they have a real reason to.

[VineBranch]

I don't think we can be removed from the consequences.  They can be mitigated.  They can be reversed at some point.  We can even be forgiven.  But, we kind of have to walk through the fire of our consequences, don't we?  or we would learn nothing.

That's an interesting thought Molly.  I guess I could agree if I didn't have this UR perspective.  Christ will draw all unto Himself.  It doesn't IMO say that will be after I learn.  He died for me while I was still His enemy.  I didn't have to go through the consequences of my sin in order to learn how to be saved.  His death removed mine, so my debt to Him was forgiven ie. removed.  I guess UR has changed my entire perspective on time, and cause and effect.  God did away with the ultimate consequence of my sin, and as such, I am freed from them.

[Molly]

God did away with the ultimate consequence of my sin, and as such, I am freed from them.

Yes, he did, considering that the ultimate consequence of your sin is death.



"death"

a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life



"I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. 
Jn 11:25


and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.  [Jn 11:26]

[rjohnson741]

This is the second time you have misquoted me.

First of all, I didn't quote you.  If you look at reply # 35 you notice these words,

God's love requires vengeance?

Take a good look rj, you'll see there are no quotation marks around the words I wrote.  When you read all the way to the end of the sentence, you will see a question mark.  I was questioning whether or not this is what you said.  Your accusation that I misquoted you is not only false, it hurts.  I try very hard to be honest in my dealing with words, especially the words of others.

In reply #42 you accuse me of misquoting you, words that sting, but I'll get past it.

In reply #43  I explain what I meant.  You didn't make any mention of it, nor did you comment on whether you thought my logic was flawed.  Did you read the explanation?  I'll enclose it in this paragraph in case you just sort of skimmed over it on your way to making your point:  "If God's love is the source of justice, and that justice is created to desire vengeance, then it is the source which created the need for vengeance.  If that is true then the source seeks vengeance.  If God's love seeks vengeance, then the source of God's love, ie. God, seeks vengeance, or else God has no integrity and is not the all and all."  This is an argument predicated on the notion that God is infinite.  If you disagree, we could discuss the logic.

I went out of my way to read what you wrote, I think your first attempt at equating God and love could have been better served had you capitalized the word love in the paranthesis, otherwise love/Love becomes very tangled and complicated.   See, I had to guess what you meant, because your English was confusing.  Then I asked a question to varify that what I read was what you meant .

Imagine my surprise when I read along and found out that ...

In reply #45 you accused me of misquoting you again.  May I take the liberty of showing the words to which you allude (rhetorical question, no question mark needed) ...

But you didn't, you said God's love seeks vengeance.

Again, notice the absence of quotation marks.  If you disagreed with my words, or

If you are not sure what some of my comments mean, why not just ask me what they mean, instead of assuming you know what they mean? Is this how you discuss with other posters by misquoting them? If that's the case our discussion becomes fruitless.

Those were you words right?  This isn't a misquote?

Okay. Let's start afresh. I will try to address your question. You're saying what happens to justice if the salvation of all is true. This is what I believe. God's justice and mercy/forgiveness are expressions of God's love. Only sinners receive justice and only sinners need mercy/forgiveness. Once God has reconciled all sinners to Himself, cleansed all sinners of all unrighteousness, and given everyone immortality, justice and mercy/forgiveness are no longer needed. As long as we are in these sin prone corruptible bodies, justice and mercy/forgiveness will be an important part of our lives. Sorry for the misunderstanding between us. Blessings to you. 

[VineBranch]

IMO, There is nthing at all odious about justice or judgment(depending on what you mean by judgement perhaps- I mean the discernment and righteous revelation of God)). They are both CLEARLY scriptural definitions of elements of God's character. Therefore they must integrate with the whole love paradigm because, GOD IS LOVE. Yet, in love God is teaching us to be just, as a manifestation of respect for our fellow human beings. Respect is also an element of love. God judges(exposes, reveals, destroys) wickedness and iniquity- as transgressions of His love. He punishes evil doers, as a part of the revelation of His character because He loves. He desires that we would love. He is teaching us to love through forgiveness AND discipline. IMO, We do not step over justice and judgement into love. We step through them into love, as we learn to be more like God who loves justice, and hates iniquity- the transgression of love. He does not, however, hate evil doers, but rather forgives them and loves them even as He disciplines them, in order that eventually they will see the error of their way and the beauty of Hs love. It just doesnt look like love to them when He is doing it(disciplining, judging). Only when the veil is taken away, after they have turned to the Lord, will His justice and His discipline look like love.

"Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me..... Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life."

Fair enough eagle, but could we not say that about Eternal Torment at well?

Of course not :o) Eternal torment teaches nothing, accomplishes nothing, illuminates nothing, results only in purpose-less pain.

I am referring specifically to the part where you said, "He punishes evil doers, as a part of the revelation of His character because He loves. He desires that we would love." and the part where you said,"He does not, however, hate evil doers, but rather forgives them and loves them even as He disciplines them, in order that eventually they will see the error of their way and the beauty of Hs love. It just doesn't look like love to them when He is doing it(disciplining, judging). Only when the veil is taken away, after they have turned to the Lord, will His justice and His discipline look like love."

If eternity is time centered and will eventually end, and God is infinite (out of time), then is there not an argument to be made that Eternal Torment will only last as long as time does.  When God brings those folk into infinity with Him, the Torment will cease because the eternity has ceased.  By removing them from time God is taking away the veil, and bringing them to Himself.  Then they can see that although it didn't look like love to them when they were inside time, when He brought them out of time and into his 'realm' His discipline now looks like love.

[VineBranch]

I just had a thought believe it or not.

If almost all pagans and some christians will not or cannot forgive the simplest slight
from another (Like getting cut off in traffic or not let in in traffic) how would they learn to forgive
by being tortured endlessly - or even for an extraordinary length of time? If humans are concious
would they just forgive and forget what God had done to them? If they are not concious, again we have purposeless
punishment. Who learns anything while they are unconcious?
If one is concious and they know they will be tormented for eternity, I think the only thing they would learn
is that they still hate God - only now they have a real reason to.

I think that is brilliant ded.  Most things I've read over the last three decades have come to the conclusion that torture doesn't work.

[VineBranch]

Okay. Let's start afresh. I will try to address your question. You're saying what happens to justice if the salvation of all is true. This is what I believe. God's justice and mercy/forgiveness are expressions of God's love. Only sinners receive justice and only sinners need mercy/forgiveness. Once God has reconciled all sinners to Himself, cleansed all sinners of all unrighteousness, and given everyone immortality, justice and mercy/forgiveness are no longer needed. As long as we are in these sin prone corruptible bodies, justice and mercy/forgiveness will be an important part of our lives. Sorry for the misunderstanding between us. Blessings to you.

You said exactly what I believe.

I apologize as well.  Blessings to you too.