Is David still in his grave?

[Zeek]

Mal 3:5  And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Mal 3:18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Jer 10:25  Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate.

Lam 3:22  It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

I've heard it said that "Jacob" is the soul or spirit of man, the part that doesn't die. Jacob is called a "worm," and Jesus mentions a place where the worm does not die. Perhaps the idea of a "purification" in the next realm is true.?
Verses like, "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD." make me think that Jacob isn't (anymore) a person, but a place in the heart of man. Israel is also a name for this sacred place, it seems to me.


Blessings,
Brian

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I hope the we all acknowledge the YOU and ME are the messengers of good news to the world, (Messengers-Angles) IF we speak life to the hears then we are messengers of Life-good news, IF we teach a message that brings to the hears , Death we are then the messengers of Death, not good news. an example of MODeath is Baptist, Mormon, etc...

their message has some news, but it is not even close to a message of Life.

breath out of your mouth (movement of air, Spirit, God breath) brings Life if spoke in proper order of life, ie  speak truths=life.

speak lies or handed down knowledge from the fathers of that religion above, and that word can bring death, or keep you in the "Halls" of death.


Just a foot note. YOU ARE THE REAPERS = ANGELS.... 

I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree. Any human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked. IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Lee              Sorry my spelling is rotten .

[Zeek]

I've heard it said that "Jacob" is the soul or spirit of man, the part that doesn't die. Jacob is called a "worm," and Jesus mentions a place where the worm does not die. Perhaps the idea of a "purification" in the next realm is true.?
Verses like, "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD." make me think that Jacob isn't (anymore) a person, but a place in the heart of man. Israel is also a name for this sacred place, it seems to me.


Blessings,
Brian

So do you think in Romans 9, Paul isn't really feeling bad for his fellow bretheren "Israelites", but actually for his "sacred place". 

As i've said before, I don't necessarily have a problem with "spiritualizing" the scriptures as I see it as a human nature to look for an "answer" to "life", but I really don't think Paul was "spiritualizing" to the point of everything "inward"; YET I believe Paul was speaking truth/spiritual; not carnal.  So, for me; to take scripture and to interpret it differenlty (imo) from what I perceive Paul and gang doing; imo is because something has changed since first century times.  For me, the fulfilled/preterist view is the "something changed". 

Rom 9:3  For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Rom 9:4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

[CHB]

I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree. Any human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked. IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Lee, would you say that all are IN CHRIST, or just some? 

I believe physically the heart is wicked above all things and there is none righteous no not one, even Christ said "why calleth me good? none is good save one, that is God".  Of course when Christ said this he was in the flesh at the time.

Physically we are rotten but spiritually in Christ we are perfect. Is this the way you see it?

CHB

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi Zeek,
I don't want to say that I have the answers and others don't.
On one hand Paul does talk about Israelites "according to the flesh," and yet he also says that not all Israel is Israel. (vv 6)
Jews according to the flesh, and Jews according to the heart.
Here I do see a distinction. Carnal Jews and "spiritual" Jews.

Today there are people fighting over a piece of land in the ME which they consider to be "holy." This by implication means that the rest is "unholy." -Are they right? Maybe. But I do know that a lot of blood has been shed over this literal POV. And we need to look at the fruit of our actions as a guide.

To me today, anything that God made is in a way, "holy," because it is His work. That means you and I, too!!  :bigGrin:

Know what I mean?

Blessings to you,
Brian

[sheila]

 Hi Zeek,

  I wrote a post to you last night in reply..but don't know what

happened to it. I can also see your perspective on the chaff.


 Basically, I see all the analogys as a 'seperating' of the

undesirable from the things desirable by God.

 be it sheep from goats, wheat from chaff, wheat from tares.

gold from dross, mark of beast from sealed mark of God etc


  In the feild[our earth/clay vessel bodies.] There are both

wheat and tares..to be seperated at harvest. and further

seperation is chaff from wheat.

    Distinguishing what is deemed 'righteous' in the eyes of God

from 'unrighteousness'

  ex; chaff removed from wheat could be 'fear of man' that is

removed from the wheat during a feiry trial so that the 'tested

quality of faith be exhibited. Fear of man in itself could be an

unclean spirit removed from the wheat as chaff..an evidence of

the wheat maturing unto a righteous harvest.


  ex; a 'tare' in the feild could be an evil spirit of self

righteousness[offspring of viper/corruption/poisonous tare]

that actually  is poison/death/and rejects and crowds out the

faith of the wheat in the 'feild' Instilling 'fear' negative doubts

and unbeleif;warring against the faith in Christ that is in the

wheat. Sucking up nutrients in the feild and 'hindering' the

developement of the wheat.

      Sheila

[Paul Hazelwood]

I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree.

Well, the issue to me is that the scriptures speak of this, BUT it is almost always used by a believer or someone who says they believe to demean.  

Any human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked.

This is because of the way we are conditioned to react to the word wicked.

IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

I have never met a perfect person, no matter how sweet and well intended a persons words are, we are told in scripture to not rely on any man for a reason.

no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Until a believer shows me a perfect human being walking the earth and can demonstrate that perfection there is not one who has measured up to the idea of what it means to be IN Christ in the first place.   This has nothing to do with judging someone as we are conditioned to react to the word wicked it is simply a truth.

While on this earth we are not complete. Any believer that thinks they are complete and whole needs to prove how they are complete and whole yet has remained an inperfect person. Of course there are people that walk around claiming they are perfect which is a lie.

One false teaching that actually hinders our spiritual growth is the absurd notion that there is actually a day while we live on this earth that we cannot do something better than we did the day before.

[Zeek]

Hi Zeek,

  I wrote a post to you last night in reply..but don't know what

happened to it. I can also see your perspective on the chaff.


 Basically, I see all the analogys as a 'seperating' of the

undesirable from the things desirable by God.

 be it sheep from goats, wheat from chaff, wheat from tares.

gold from dross, mark of beast from sealed mark of God etc


  In the feild[our earth/clay vessel bodies.] There are both

wheat and tares..to be seperated at harvest. and further

seperation is chaff from wheat.

    Distinguishing what is deemed 'righteous' in the eyes of God

from 'unrighteousness'

  ex; chaff removed from wheat could be 'fear of man' that is

removed from the wheat during a feiry trial so that the 'tested

quality of faith be exhibited. Fear of man in itself could be an

unclean spirit removed from the wheat as chaff..an evidence of

the wheat maturing unto a righteous harvest.


  ex; a 'tare' in the feild could be an evil spirit of self

righteousness[offspring of viper/corruption/poisonous tare]

that actually  is poison/death/and rejects and crowds out the

faith of the wheat in the 'feild' Instilling 'fear' negative doubts

and unbeleif;warring against the faith in Christ that is in the

wheat. Sucking up nutrients in the feild and 'hindering' the

developement of the wheat.

      Sheila

Thanks for the reply.  Great post. 

[Chris]

Acts 9;4  He FELL TO THE GTOUND and heard a voice say

 Saul,Saul! Why do you persecute me?


    Matthew 3; 11 But after me will come one who is more

 POWERFUL than I,, whose sandals I am not fit to carry

 He will baptize you with the Holy spirit and fire.

  HIS WINNOWING FORK IS IN HIS HAND,AND HE WILL CLEAR

HIS THRESHING FLOOR,GATHERING HIS WHEAT INTO THE BARN

AND BURNING UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

:bowing:

so do you see the "chaff" as the same as tares?  I don't.

I believe the "chaff" is the fiery trial of one's faith, the proces of putting on immortality, the refiners fire.  

which, imo; those given faith are the means (reapers) who burn the tares.  

The chaff IS BURNED while the wheat IS GATHERED. Right?

How do you see that as being different from the tares? Especially since the "ungodly" are "like the chaff"?  (Isa 1:4) and "the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away" (Isa 29:5) and "chaff" = "stubble" (Isa 33:11)

In Isa 41 the "chaff" are compared to hills of a mountain that has been beaten down with a "sharp threshing instrument having teeth".

In Jeremiah the question is asked "What is the chaff to the wheat?"

We see the "chaff" mentioned primarily in the OT and the "tares" mentioned only in the NT. Right?

So what do you see as the "difference"? when both are "consumed"?

[Chris]

Mal 3:5  And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Mal 3:18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Jer 10:25  Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate.

Lam 3:22  It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

Remember that "Jacob" was THE SECOND BORN SON.  :thumbsup:

[Zeek]

Acts 9;4  He FELL TO THE GTOUND and heard a voice say

 Saul,Saul! Why do you persecute me?


    Matthew 3; 11 But after me will come one who is more

 POWERFUL than I,, whose sandals I am not fit to carry

 He will baptize you with the Holy spirit and fire.

  HIS WINNOWING FORK IS IN HIS HAND,AND HE WILL CLEAR

HIS THRESHING FLOOR,GATHERING HIS WHEAT INTO THE BARN

AND BURNING UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

:bowing:

so do you see the "chaff" as the same as tares?  I don't.

I believe the "chaff" is the fiery trial of one's faith, the proces of putting on immortality, the refiners fire.  

which, imo; those given faith are the means (reapers) who burn the tares.  

The chaff IS BURNED while the wheat IS GATHERED. Right?

How do you see that as being different from the tares? Especially since the "ungodly" are "like the chaff"?  (Isa 1:4) and "the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away" (Isa 29:5) and "chaff" = "stubble" (Isa 33:11)

In Isa 41 the "chaff" are compared to hills of a mountain that has been beaten down with a "sharp threshing instrument having teeth".

In Jeremiah the question is asked "What is the chaff to the wheat?"

We see the "chaff" mentioned primarily in the OT and the "tares" mentioned only in the NT. Right?

So what do you see as the "difference"? when both are "consumed"?

very good scriptures to assist my thinking.  

I see the chaff as coming off the "same plant"--->wheat.  The gathering of the wheat, the the burning of the chaff (mortality putting on immortality).  The trial of FAITH.  

I see the tares as those who did not move from law to grace; refusing to .

there seems to me to be in scripture a "shame that won't be forgotten" and "a never be shamed".   a return to one's vomit vs. clothed in righteousness.  

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


   

Was you experience from "death" (under law) to life (faith/grace) a feaful judment of fiery indignation?  

For my inward journey of evolving Christ consciousness:

I have to say mine wasn't.  I grew up with faith. I never did not believe.  I do not remember ever going through death to life in the way the bible talks of it (lake of fire).  I have always as long as i remember had deep knowing, a relationship with HIM.  Childlike faith.  It was there.  It imo, was my "lot".  I'm not saying this in pride; just relaying my experience.    

But, I do admit the "trials of my faith", (the wilderness walk) has been fiery.  But oh so sweet too.  The process of putting on immortality has been quite a journey.  And through this my faith to faith has grown.  And I await and pray for the day I  receive the end of my faith; the salvation of my soul.  This to me is definitely possible in THIS LIFE (physical life).  I, like you don't see "physical death" as the final path into this land of paradise.  



 

[Zeek]

Chris,

for me; I really do think our "final outcome" of our belief systems is very close.  My whole point of my interaction is that I PERSONALLY struggled with how to see the "inward" approach if one looks at the message Paul and gang was preaching to literal people then.  To me something must have changed over the last 1950  years to make the jump.  Because I think Paul was literally warning literal people of things to come, and yet it was "spiritual" even though "literal". 

The fulfilled preterist view; has been my method of seeing the "jump".  What happened to "them" was to show us the progression of consciousness now.  We all move from death to life at various rates "inwardly" and it mirrors the outplay of what happened then (paul's time).

I apologize if this doesn't make sense.  It's the best I can do.  Again; I appreciate your patience with me.   :HeartThrob:

[Chris]

very good scriptures to assist my thinking.  

I see the chaff as coming off the "same plant"--->wheat.  The gathering of the wheat, the the burning of the chaff (mortality putting on immortality).  The trial of FAITH.  

I do not disagree with that... as the "chaff" is the protective casing of the wheat (ie skin/flesh, so to speak), right? Which is eventually separated from the wheat (through "threshing" and "winnowing"), right?

While "tares" are a different plant altogether; one that "looks like" wheat. Right?

But how might they be related, spiritually? And how might they apply to both and "outward" and well as an "inward" manifestation?

I see the tares as those who did not move from law to grace; refusing to .

I would not disagree with that either. But, then, are you saying that those who have moved on from the law (death) unto grace (life) where never manifested as "tares" but only "chaff"?

there seems to me to be in scripture a "shame that won't be forgotten" and "a never be shamed".   a return to one's vomit vs. clothed in righteousness.  

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

And what is the connection that you are drawing here between the tares vs the chaff (and/or wheat)?

Was you experience from "death" (under law) to life (faith/grace) a feaful judment of fiery indignation?  

For my inward journey of evolving Christ consciousness:

I have to say mine wasn't.

If "yours" wasn't then why do you assume that the experience of "others" will be?

Perhaps you are misunderstanding just exactly what is meant by "shame" and "fiery indignation". Do "the dead" KNOW "anything"? Eye can see and yet NOT PERCEIVE, right? Paul says that the wrath of God ABIDES (present tense) upon those who believe not. Do they "know" that? Do they "feel" the wrath of God that is abiding upon them? Do they even KNOW that they "are dead"?

I grew up with faith. I never did not believe.  I do not remember ever going through death to life in the way the bible talks of it (lake of fire).  I have always as long as i remember had deep knowing, a relationship with HIM.  Childlike faith.  It was there.  It imo, was my "lot".  I'm not saying this in pride; just relaying my experience.    

But what did you grow up having "faith" IN?

Even those who believe in ET "have faith" do they not? Would you say that they are not headed for the lake of fire? Why them and not you?

Who is it that the scriptures say has "their part" in the lake of fire? Do we not ALL meet the criteria?

If one died for all then were ALL DEAD, right? Why do you think that one person's passage "from death into life" is going to different from another man's experience?

No one CAN come to Christ except the Father draw Him, right? and ALL were drawn (according to Christ), right? It is THE EARTH (the flesh) that is BURNED UP. Are we not ALL "first formed out of the dust of the ground" (earthen vessels... fitted for destruction)? 

But, I do admit the "trials of my faith", (the wilderness walk) has been fiery.  But oh so sweet too.  The process of putting on immortality has been quite a journey.  And through this my faith to faith has grown.  And I await and pray for the day I  receive the end of my faith; the salvation of my soul.  This to me is definitely possible in THIS LIFE (physical life).  I, like you don't see "physical death" as the final path into this land of paradise.

Why do you think that will be different for those who have not yet been clothed with Christ (or, better yet, do not yet know that THEY HAVE BEEN)?

Is God "more merciful" to some then to others?  Would that not make Him "a respecter of persons"?

[Chris]

Chris,

for me; I really do think our "final outcome" of our belief systems is very close.  My whole point of my interaction is that I PERSONALLY struggled with how to see the "inward" approach if one looks at the message Paul and gang was preaching to literal people then.  To me something must have changed over the last 1950  years to make the jump.  Because I think Paul was literally warning literal people of things to come, and yet it was "spiritual" even though "literal". 

The fulfilled preterist view; has been my method of seeing the "jump".  What happened to "them" was to show us the progression of consciousness now.  We all move from death to life at various rates "inwardly" and it mirrors the outplay of what happened then (paul's time).

I apologize if this doesn't make sense.  It's the best I can do.  Again; I appreciate your patience with me.   :HeartThrob:

For me it's not about jumping "from" one "to" the other, as both can exist together, with that which IS SEEN revealing that which is NOT SEEN, right?

First, we have to be able to "see" THE NATURAL and then we can "see" THE SPIRITUAL, right? The natural does not need to cease to exist, does it? It's just not what we are supposed to be "looking upon", right?

I appreciate your patience with me as well, as I know that we have a hard time "understanding" each other sometimes.  :mblush: I appreciate your willingness to re-explain what you mean and to allow me to do the same as we try to "reason together".  :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[Zeek]

very good scriptures to assist my thinking.  

I see the chaff as coming off the "same plant"--->wheat.  The gathering of the wheat, the the burning of the chaff (mortality putting on immortality).  The trial of FAITH.  

I do not disagree with that... as the "chaff" is the protective casing of the wheat (ie skin/flesh, so to speak), right? Which is eventually separated from the wheat (through "threshing" and "winnowing"), right?

While "tares" are a different plant altogether; one that "looks like" wheat. Right?

But how might they be related, spiritually? And how might they apply to both and "outward" and well as an "inward" manifestation?

I see the tares as those who did not move from law to grace; refusing to .

I would not disagree with that either. But, then, are you saying that those who have moved on from the law (death) unto grace (life) where never manifested as "tares" but only "chaff"?

there seems to me to be in scripture a "shame that won't be forgotten" and "a never be shamed".   a return to one's vomit vs. clothed in righteousness.  

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

And what is the connection that you are drawing here between the tares vs the chaff (and/or wheat)?

Was you experience from "death" (under law) to life (faith/grace) a feaful judment of fiery indignation?  

For my inward journey of evolving Christ consciousness:

I have to say mine wasn't.

If "yours" wasn't then why do you assume that the experience of "others" will be?

Perhaps you are misunderstanding just exactly what is meant by "shame" and "fiery indignation". Do "the dead" KNOW "anything"? Eye can see and yet NOT PERCEIVE, right? Paul says that the wrath of God ABIDES (present tense) upon those who believe not. Do they "know" that? Do they "feel" the wrath of God that is abiding upon them? Do they even KNOW that they "are dead"?

I grew up with faith. I never did not believe.  I do not remember ever going through death to life in the way the bible talks of it (lake of fire).  I have always as long as i remember had deep knowing, a relationship with HIM.  Childlike faith.  It was there.  It imo, was my "lot".  I'm not saying this in pride; just relaying my experience.    

But what did you grow up having "faith" IN?

Even those who believe in ET "have faith" do they not? Would you say that they are not headed for the lake of fire? Why them and not you?

Who is it that the scriptures say has "their part" in the lake of fire? Do we not ALL meet the criteria?

If one died for all then were ALL DEAD, right? Why do you think that one person's passage "from death into life" is going to different from another man's experience?

No one CAN come to Christ except the Father draw Him, right? and ALL were drawn (according to Christ), right? It is THE EARTH (the flesh) that is BURNED UP. Are we not ALL "first formed out of the dust of the ground" (earthen vessels... fitted for destruction)? 

But, I do admit the "trials of my faith", (the wilderness walk) has been fiery.  But oh so sweet too.  The process of putting on immortality has been quite a journey.  And through this my faith to faith has grown.  And I await and pray for the day I  receive the end of my faith; the salvation of my soul.  This to me is definitely possible in THIS LIFE (physical life).  I, like you don't see "physical death" as the final path into this land of paradise.

Why do you think that will be different for those who have not yet been clothed with Christ (or, better yet, do not yet know that THEY HAVE BEEN)?

Is God "more merciful" to some then to others?  Would that not make Him "a respecter of persons"?

Chris, I don't even know how to continue on. 

I beleive we are all children of God, moving into greater awareness of who we are (this being an inward application).  And i have no problem applying wrath, tares etc. to this process if it helps one to see feel at peace with this process.

I just don't see that as what Paul was preaching at the time.  There were  "tares" headed for destruction which occurred at the destruction of Jerusalem; and their were wheat headed for reward.  The implications of this, are what allows us to internalize/spiritualize all of it.   And I don't agree that because Paul was talking about literal things to take place, that it wasn't still spiritual.   

I got to go to basketball game for son again, so I'll get back to ya. 

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree. Any human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked. IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Lee, would you say that all are IN CHRIST, or just some?  ALL ARE IN CHRIST...NOW 

I believe physically the heart is wicked above all things and there is none righteous no not one, even Christ said "why calleth me good? none is good save one, that is God".  Of course when Christ said this he was in the flesh at the time. AND AFTER HE ROSE ? ALL BECAME "IN" HIM

Physically we are rotten but spiritually in Christ we are perfect. Is this the way you see it? NO NOT ROTTEN, WE ARE WHAT WE ARE, HIS... IN HIM

CHB

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree.

Well, the issue to me is that the scriptures speak of this, BUT it is almost always used by a believer or someone who says they believe to demean.  

Any human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked.

This is because of the way we are conditioned to react to the word wicked. CONDITIONED YES, TO THE WORD NO , ALL WORDS IN BIBLE YES. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE LEARNING , TO KNOW THE WORDS... AND HOW THE CHURCHES LIED TO US ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

I have never met a perfect person,(YOU SHOULD MEET ME, I AM PERFECT, IN CHRIST AND I AM ALWAYS THERE....) no matter how sweet and well intended a persons words are, we are told in scripture to not rely on any man for a reason.

no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Until a believer shows me a perfect human being walking the earth and can demonstrate that perfection ( HOW? BY WORKS OF THE LAW....???  )there is not one who has measured up to the idea of what it means to be IN Christ in the first place. (NO SAVED PEOPLE EVER)  This has nothing to do with judging someone as we are conditioned to react to the word wicked it is simply a truth.(TO YOU)

While on this earth we(SPEAK FOR YOUR SELF PLEASE) are not complete. Any believer that thinks they are complete and whole needs to prove how they are complete and whole yet has remained an imperfect person.(IN YOUR MEANING OF IMPERFECT) Of course there are people that walk around claiming they are perfect which is a lie.(ONLY BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO BECOME COMPLETE IN CHRIST-PERFECT)

One false teaching that actually hinders our spiritual growth is the absurd notion that there is actually a day while we live on this earth that we cannot do something better than we did the day before.

ABOUT THE ONLY PERFECT PARAGRAPH HERE... ABOVE
  NO PUN INTENDED...

NOT TRYING TO GET YOU UP SET, IT IS MY ABSOLUTE BELIEF AND NOT JUST RAMBLING.... 

LEE DAMBOISE II

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Like Lee, I too tend to believe that all are now in Christ. Because we were reconciled to God while we were sinners. That sounds like everyone to me.

My  :2c:,
Brian

[CHB]

While on this earth we are not complete. Any believer that thinks they are complete and whole needs to prove how they are complete and whole yet has remained an inperfect person. Of course there are people that walk around claiming they are perfect which is a lie.

Hi Paul,

(Col. 2:10) And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power.

There is a scripture that talks about us being perfect in Christ. Can't find it right now.

Physically I don't think I am perfect but if I am in Christ I believe spiritually I am perfect in the eyes of the Father. When the Father looks at me he sees Christ. Now, whether everyone is in Christ, is another question. You would think they are though because what ever Jesus accomplished, he accomplished it for all. 

CHB

[Chris]

While on this earth we are not complete. Any believer that thinks they are complete and whole needs to prove how they are complete and whole yet has remained an inperfect person. Of course there are people that walk around claiming they are perfect which is a lie.

Hi Paul,

(Col. 2:10) And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power.

There is a scripture that talks about us being perfect in Christ. Can't find it right now.

Physically I don't think I am perfect but if I am in Christ I believe spiritually I am perfect in the eyes of the Father. When the Father looks at me he sees Christ. Now, whether everyone is in Christ, is another question. You would think they are though because what ever Jesus accomplished, he accomplished it for all. 

CHB

Paul, when speaking about attaining to the resurrection of the dead and not counting himself to have attained unto it, says that "as many as BE PERFECT" should walk by the same rule.

Is that what you are thinking of?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree.

Well, the issue to me is that the scriptures speak of this, BUT it is almost always used by a believer or someone who says they believe to demean.  

Any human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked.

This is because of the way we are conditioned to react to the word wicked. CONDITIONED YES, TO THE WORD NO , ALL WORDS IN BIBLE YES. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE LEARNING , TO KNOW THE WORDS... AND HOW THE CHURCHES LIED TO US ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

I have never met a perfect person,(YOU SHOULD MEET ME, I AM PERFECT, IN CHRIST AND I AM ALWAYS THERE....) no matter how sweet and well intended a persons words are, we are told in scripture to not rely on any man for a reason.

no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Until a believer shows me a perfect human being walking the earth and can demonstrate that perfection ( HOW? BY WORKS OF THE LAW....???  )there is not one who has measured up to the idea of what it means to be IN Christ in the first place. (NO SAVED PEOPLE EVER)  This has nothing to do with judging someone as we are conditioned to react to the word wicked it is simply a truth.(TO YOU)

While on this earth we(SPEAK FOR YOUR SELF PLEASE) are not complete. Any believer that thinks they are complete and whole needs to prove how they are complete and whole yet has remained an imperfect person.(IN YOUR MEANING OF IMPERFECT) Of course there are people that walk around claiming they are perfect which is a lie.(ONLY BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO BECOME COMPLETE IN CHRIST-PERFECT)

One false teaching that actually hinders our spiritual growth is the absurd notion that there is actually a day while we live on this earth that we cannot do something better than we did the day before.

ABOUT THE ONLY PERFECT PARAGRAPH HERE... ABOVE
  NO PUN INTENDED...

NOT TRYING TO GET YOU UP SET, IT IS MY ABSOLUTE BELIEF AND NOT JUST RAMBLING.... 

LEE DAMBOISE II

I'm not upset, I just know that no one has completed their journey so there is still a long ways to go.  Call that perfection if you like.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Journey? whats that got to do with being perfect?

I was talking about being perfect (Complete IN Christ), Perfect...

that has nothing to do with the process or journey in knowledge and the trials and tribulations of pressing INTO Christ.

IMO the process and trials will never end.... ever. time excluded.

Lee

[Paul Hazelwood]

Journey? whats that got to do with being perfect?

I was talking about being perfect (Complete IN Christ), Perfect...

that has nothing to do with the process or journey in knowledge and the trials and tribulations of pressing INTO Christ.

IMO the process and trials will never end.... ever. time excluded.

Lee

We may be misunderstanding one another.   Here is how I see perfection,  we are perfect in the sense that every human being is from God.   We are perfect for all that we have to learn.

We are not perfect in the sense that if we come to believe in Christ that we are not one ounce better than our enemies who don't.   Now measuring up to that idea is hard and it will not happen except for the Gods mercy and grace and is why Sin and "all falling short" is about having not yet been given all knowledge and truth.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Ok, the above post may be accurate in more than one way, although I don't believe that the falling short part applies. It really is too limited time and space here to explain the whole misdirection and lies told to God's children about being sinners.  of one I am not. "falling short"

Lee