Has anyone found a theology, or philosophy, other than the obvious cult ones, which is incompatible with UR. Is there a way of thinking which violates UR. I've been thinking about this and I can't find one: does it, or do they exist?
How about mainstream christianity and catholicism?
What is a cult? I was listening to a garden variety preacher on the radio this morning. He was saying that all cults refuse to enter into God's grace. They are still living under law, however they may define that.
This refusal to live under the grace of God binds man from every side, through fear and threats. This is not to say we are to live in lawlessness. On the contrary, if we live in daily communion with Jesus Christ, our path is lighted and set out before us through commitment, grace, and love. Our reward is Him.
How many churches stress this kind of freedom in Christ?
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
--Rom 2:29
amen Molly
A "christian" cult is any group led by a charismatic leader or a group of men that claims to believe in God, Jesus, and the Bible but do one or more of several things:
!.) Add to (extrabiblical) or take away (God didn't really mean that) from scripture
2.) Make Christ less. (He is not God) (There are other Gods)(He was a great teacher)(He is our perfect example)(He hardly ever sinned)(He was the greatest man that ever lived) etc.
3.) Twisting the scriptures (taking the meaning and having it mean something else entirely or even the complete opposite)
4.) Insist that only those in their group that understand the scriptures "in the same manner" that the group does will be favored by God.
5.) Add some kind of works to the grace of God
6.) Insist that those that believe differently than their own group are lost.
7.) Discourage reading, talking, discussing, or even thinking about views that are different than the group.
Note: This is my definition having been a missionary to the cults and a member of two previously.
1st cult said only 144,00 Total would be saved.
2nd cult said it didn't matter at all about Jesus, his death, his resurrection or even scripture because God would forgive everyone for everything and it was an illusion that we had sinned in the first place. (We made mistakes - we never sinned) :laughing7:
This is probably why I have a tendency to "jump" when someone uses the language of a cult. I want to find out if they are in the cult. Most here however, have used the language or phrases without even realizing that each cult has "buzzwords"
"Buzzwords," interesting. Their own language that is allowed or disallowed.
What was the cult that said nothing mattered?
I think a simple definition of a cult is any person or group that puts itself between you and Christ.
I remember that among the Seventh-Day Adventists (who insist they are NOT a cult) the buzzphrase was always, "Sister White said..." It was usually a prelude to crushing your happiness. I decided they were a cult after learning of their own translation of the Bible (the Clear Word) which reinforced their peculiar doctrines.
a "christian" New Age group for anything goes. Very similar to Unitarian Universalism except you were expected to read a ton of new age baloney and philosophy, practice concious dreaming, and meditate on all being an illusion.
The WorldWide Church of God (or Armstrongism) for the 144,000.
The reason only 144,000 would make it?(besides Revelation#?) If you ever sinned even once after being baptized, there was no longer any hope for you? According to them, I was saved for about 15 minutes after Baptism. :laugh:
Oh yeah Laz. I forgot to mention - Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and SDA all have their own Bible translation which "fits" them better. BTW, WWCoG prefers your favorite, Ferrar Fenton - or was that Micah?
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 04, 2013, 06:56:09 PM
BTW, WWCoG prefers your favorite, Ferrar Fenton - or was that Micah?
I'm not surprised, as the FFV is the darling of the whole British-Israel community. I love his OT, and still exploring his NT, and will submit a report on it later.
Ded your definition of a cult assumes you are not the one twisting scripture, or reversing the meaning. :Chinscratch:
Everyone thinks they have the correct translation. Otherwise we wouldn't have 20k denominations.
Also I was told when I was in the system still that non-trinity is a hallmark of cults.
I must be a cult member then.
We all have some things right and some things wrong. If we only knew which parts were with...
:Peace2: :HeartThrob:
No red, I'm talking about when the plain reading of scripture disproves one of the tenets of the group and here is a direct quote from the WWCofG
"Yes. The plain reading of scripture would seem to mean this, but what God meant to say was..." :laugh:
Another one was that they would take a word, and that word made have 8 listed definitions. Definitions are listed in the likelyhood of use and correctness. When they have to use the 8th definition to get the meaning that they want rather than the plain reading that is in a dozen good translations...
Or, how about, that translation is wrong. It doesn't say the Word was God in the Greek, it says the Word was a god.
That's when I decided to learn some Greek.
And, no it doesn't.
King James got it right.
Yeah, that was under reinterpreting scripture AND making Jesus less than God in the flesh and/or having multiple gods or a created god. :laughing7:
I thought the new age of Christianity does not believe there is a hell.
The old age of Christianity believes in a literal hell.
"New Age" christianity doesn't believe in a hell. That doesn't mean they are right about anything else. I'm not saying if they are right on other things or not. Just that their beliefs, IF they coincide with UR isn't because of a careful study of the scriptures or even any reading of scriptures. The New Age literature doesn't recognise sin, death, hell or the need for Christ as anything other than a "Great Teacher" a Great Soul.
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 04, 2013, 06:53:15 PM
The WorldWide Church of God (or Armstrongism) for the 144,000.
The reason only 144,000 would make it?(besides Revelation#?) If you ever sinned even once after being baptized, there was no longer any hope for you? According to them, I was saved for about 15 minutes after Baptism. :laugh:
a "Christian" New Age group for anything goes.
When fear has been removed from the equation or philosophy
The thought (anything goes) is real and should not be dismissed.
It would be natural to look at and read about philosophy.
Explore all the ways of thinking about this life.
Every dream and vision written about is a conscious dream,
( practice conscious dreaming)
Are these dreams real or just an illusion?
We should meditate on such things.
Well Daj,
IMO, you're only confirming my suspicions that you are a "new Ager" at heart. The Bible suggests we think and dwell on his word - the scriptures. You're suggesting it would be more beneficial for us to do what I personally have previously found to be futile. :Peace2:
Ded,
The Bible is truth, but it is not all of the truth there is. Philosophy is not inherently evil. Dreams many times are given by God.
God speaks in many ways. I would not be here if I had followed my bible , which is translated wrong on things like eternal. I was given a vision and a revelation. These seemed to contradict my understanding of the bible at the time.
Thankfully Gods Word IN me did not return void.
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 04, 2013, 08:07:07 PM
Ded,
The Bible is truth, but it is not all of the truth there is. Philosophy is not inherently evil. Dreams many times are given by God.
God speaks in many ways. I would not be here if I had followed my bible , which is translated wrong on things like eternal. I was given a vision and a revelation. These seemed to contradict my understanding of the bible at the time.
Thankfully Gods Word IN me did not return void.
But, was your revelation and vision in tune with the correct translation of the Bible or at odds with it? That's the real question.
Quote from: dajomaco on February 04, 2013, 07:28:37 PM
I thought the new age of Christianity does not believe there is a hell.
The old age of Christianity believes in a literal hell.
I believe in a literal hell. Been there, done that.
we still have to be on guard,daj.....we are warned by the spirit of another evil contrast spirit..that will lead
us down a hurtful path.True His yoke is light..but there is another whose yoke is not..it will put up heavy loads
on men,impossible to bear[see Jesus Christ unable to bear cross without the cyrene assisting]
the Holy spirit teaches
and rhm,your statement so true...it was when I realized that if I read and studied the scriptures for a thousand years
twice over,that I still of myself,could not or would not understand..that The Holy spirit come and give me understanding
Blessed art thou,Peter, for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you,but the Father in Heaven.
Ye diligently search the scriptures,for in them ye think you have eternal life, but me you reject.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2013, 08:15:55 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 04, 2013, 08:07:07 PM
Ded,
The Bible is truth, but it is not all of the truth there is. Philosophy is not inherently evil. Dreams many times are given by God.
God speaks in many ways. I would not be here if I had followed my bible , which is translated wrong on things like eternal. I was given a vision and a revelation. These seemed to contradict my understanding of the bible at the time.
Thankfully Gods Word IN me did not return void.
But, was your revelation and vision in tune with the correct translation of the Bible or at odds with it? That's the real question.
Yes, but I've been wrong before on what I think is the proper translation :icon_jokercolor:
And yes sheila.
there is a fine line to walk, between openness and closedness, something about a narrow road said by this enlighened teacher once :rolllol:
re;'but was your revelation in tune with the correct....." it was if he received it in faith"..it was not if in his mind
he saw it as a lie and of the devil..and the scriptures can be twisted of satan,very easily for that very purpose
faith hope love....that which remains
Quote from: RHMYes, but I've been wrong before on what I think is the proper translation
Yes, because there are two stages to that process.
First, what does it say?
Second, what does it mean?
What does it say, can be more or less answered by looking at the original words.
But, what does it mean is not just a matter of reading comprehension. It's what Sheila said.
and I know God uses dreams. What I was talking about was called concious dreaming. I learned how to be awake and dream and direct my dreams to what I wanted to happen. I haven't done it for years. It's self centered. I would spend hours on end living a fantasy life and not accomplishing anything in real life. :sigh:
what about...the eating of what was forbidden..done in faith..and some do not eat..out of faith..and some eat
with thanksgiving and faith...and anything out of faith is a 'sin' unto you? Could this apply to what is
'quickened of the spirit in the scriptures' to us.?
:dontknow:
Each person must work out on their own what the Spirit of God/Jesus is telling them. :Chinscratch:
wow,ded2...I had never heard of such a thing... but, you know...I think we be spiritual creatures and maybe we
spiritually expierement and explore different things and ideas[not saying such things are fruitful,just that
the little children 'explore' such things]
and regarding conscious dreaming......And I in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake,I will
be satisfied with seeing your likeness.. and as far as the illusion goes...the whole world of mankind
has been blinded by the prince of this world
I merely answered your question the best I could, Sheila. I guess I should have left it at :dontknow:
I have not found one, however I have knocked the socks off friends that belong to the Gaudiya Vaishnavism movement, using "the good news".
These people believe that Yahweh is Krishna, that Jesus is God, their bible parallels the same biblical stories of the OT.
Me and my friends (that belong to the above faith) often chat about our faiths, I am the only Christian based one, but I participate and fill in any queries they have about Jesus. One day I introduced to them my belief of universal reconciliation.
They were dumbfounded. They believe in a hell too, not exactly the same hell as Christians. Their rebuttal is that God is too perfect too allow anyone near his true form, even the righteous. I reminded them of Jesus's self-sacrifice (these are people that have not grown up in Christian theology) and then they began to ponder, and ask a lot of questions. I managed to satisfy each answer using Gods word, and so far a few of my friends that belong to this movement are looking into their own faiths. Each one admitted it would be wonderful for God to show his truth to everyone.
That sounds wonderful missz :thumbsup: :dsunny:
yeah, wow. fantastic. :2thumbs: Praise God.
Ded I understand that you have to look at things for it's hidden agenda.
When ever I decide to direct my mind to think about my relationship with God.
I marvel at how it is a perfect Love relationship.
That Jesus who calls himself my brother.
Died in my place took my death sentence.
Has erased any fears that I have of my Father God.
At that moment I am very conscious of Christ.
I have a Christ consciousness that would make a new ager
jealous. I am free of labels.
I don't have to believe scriptures (but I do) If the Spirit agrees with them.
I don't have to perform for God.(but I love that he sees every thing I do and think)
I don't have listen to the quite voice of the Holy Spirit (but I do).
I can freely get every thing wrong, and I am free enough to get it right.
IMO we have enough cautionary out there,
warning about words.
I'm sorry Ded2...I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought your pov was wrong, or not valid. about
your expierence with conscious dreaming.I didn't mean to give that impression in my post. :sigh:
I guess what I was trying to get at was just this thing...all things are lawful..but not all things are expiedent.
for instance oob expierences. 8-9 yrs ago..my best friend was dying from als bulbar type and was in
nursing home. When I would turn out the light and go to bed and pray..my mind would go to her
and I would put my arm around her and hold her and tell her I loved her. I did not know why this was happening
something in my spirit was doing it. I did not know if it was 'proper' to even do this..if" I" waseven doing
it.. Anyway,she died and my other friend and I was standing in front of her coffin at mortuary. And I
said to her' I'm going to tell you something that you may think sounds 'crazy" but I'm going to tell you
anyway. Then I told her..when I go to bed at night, and turn out the light and pray...I go to Pam and hold her
and tell her I love her...sounds crazy doesn't it. And she said 'No, and I'll tell you why. When I go to bed at
night and turn off the light and pray, I ask Jesus to go to Pam and hold her and tell her He loves her."
I never felt more a part of Jesus body then at that time. Do I support oob trips/travel etc? No. I can
only speak of this expierence.. There is no law against the Holy spirit.
that being said...is there another spirit thatwill twist and turn and imitate the genuine? yes.
Well that made me cry. That's awesome.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2013, 05:10:57 PM
What is a cult? I was listening to a garden variety preacher on the radio this morning. He was saying that all cults refuse to enter into God's grace. They are still living under law, however they may define that.
This refusal to live under the grace of God binds man from every side, through fear and threats. This is not to say we are to live in lawlessness. On the contrary, if we live in daily communion with Jesus Christ, our path is lighted and set out before us through commitment, grace, and love. Our reward is Him.
How many churches stress this kind of freedom in Christ?
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
--Rom 2:29
Actually Molly, if he was a garden variety he was a ... cultivare! :laugh:
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2013, 06:34:31 PM
"Buzzwords," interesting. Their own language that is allowed or disallowed.
What was the cult that said nothing mattered?
I think a simple definition of a cult is any person or group that puts itself between you and Christ.
I have a friend who would disagree Molly, he thinks that's the definition of in-laws.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2013, 07:23:10 PM
Or, how about, that translation is wrong. It doesn't say the Word was God in the Greek, it says the Word was a god.
That's when I decided to learn some Greek.
And, no it doesn't.
King James got it right.
I had the same experience Molly. A JW showed me his interlinear New Testament. In English it read 'a god'. I asked him to show me where the article was in the Greek because I couldn't find it anywhere. He looked at me like I was something his cat just dropped at his feet.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2013, 08:18:07 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on February 04, 2013, 07:28:37 PM
I thought the new age of Christianity does not believe there is a hell.
The old age of Christianity believes in a literal hell.
I believe in a literal hell. Been there, done that.
Are we still talking about Spokane?
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 04, 2013, 08:36:47 PM
and I know God uses dreams. What I was talking about was called concious dreaming. I learned how to be awake and dream and direct my dreams to what I wanted to happen. I haven't done it for years. It's self centered. I would spend hours on end living a fantasy life and not accomplishing anything in real life. :sigh:
Psychologists call it Lucid Dreaming.
To go back to an earlier topic in this thread . . . In the Soviet Union the arm of the government that dealt with religion, all of it, was called The Ministry of the Cults. To the best of my understanding, all religious groups are cults. We in the USA have had a more restricted view of what a cult is by way of certain events used to propagandize that point of view from an institutional Christian bias. Government didn't want to alienate their support.
I think it was intended for controlling what the populace thinks about the unincorporated Bible study and home fellowship, or the "house church" in a neighbor's home down the street. Calling them "cults" with their definition of a cult would make it easier to suppress the burgeoning number of independent home groups should it become more convenient for certain aspects of civil government at the time. Now it's possible the attempt is to make these gatherings seem more political or terrorist oriented. Certainly the idea keeps being pushed that Christian or evangelical fundamentalism is to be equated with Moslem fundamentalism, regardless of how ridiculously far from the facts that is.
My concern about a doctrine incompatible with Universal Salvation is that of Statism. When the government or a man at its head is seen more and more in Messianic terms, the people left out of their secular salvation in previous incarnations during the 20th Century have been Christians and Jews. The constant drivel against us has been too much ignored by believers. Many among us grew up taking it as truth that born again Christians are at the least uneducated bigots hindering the progress of the world, for instance. With Al-Jeziera manning two cable and satellite channels now I don't suppose this situation will improve. While we don't have to turn them on, many will.
Quote from: reFORMer on February 05, 2013, 08:38:44 AM
To go back to an earlier topic in this thread . . . In the Soviet Union the arm of the government that dealt with religion, all of it, was called The Ministry of the Cults. To the best of my understanding, all religious groups are cults. We in the USA have had a more restricted view of what a cult is by way of certain events used to propagandize that point of view from an institutional Christian bias. Government didn't want to alienate their support.
I think it was intended for controlling what the populace thinks about the unincorporated Bible study and home fellowship, or the "house church" in a neighbor's home down the street. Calling them "cults" with their definition of a cult would make it easier to suppress the burgeoning number of independent home groups should it become more convenient for certain aspects of civil government at the time. Now it's possible the attempt is to make these gatherings seem more political or terrorist oriented. Certainly the idea keeps being pushed that Christian or evangelical fundamentalism is to be equated with Moslem fundamentalism, regardless of how ridiculously far from the facts that is.
My concern about a doctrine incompatible with Universal Salvation is that of Statism. When the government or a man at its head is seen more and more in Messianic terms, the people left out of their secular salvation in previous incarnations during the 20th Century have been Christians and Jews. The constant drivel against us has been too much ignored by believers. Many among us grew up taking it as truth that born again Christians are at the least uneducated bigots hindering the progress of the world, for instance. With Al-Jeziera manning two cable and satellite channels now I don't suppose this situation will improve. While we don't have to turn them on, many will.
Yet ... this too shall pass. Would its incompatibility not pass as well?
1. The political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man's life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, ...
ImO the ability of one man to think of himself,
as representing more than one of his kind.
Leads to the insanity of this worlds wisdom.
I can listen to a Muslim talk and say something about getting
to rape virgins when he dies. That his God rewards this way.
A Muslim can hear, a westerner talk about how his, Christian God
is going to torture for ever those that disagree with him.
I am responsible for knowing and owning what I believe.
I have been separated by God called according to Christ.
I am the only person on the face of the earth that represents
my point of view.
I struggle with giving that same definition to other individuals.
I all ways see them representing more than they actually do.
Quote from: dajThe political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man's life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, ...
No it's not. That's the political expression of robbery and tyranny.
Go and read Animal Farm again.
Altruism comes from the heart, not from the point of a gun.
You were bought for a price. Stop becoming slaves of people. --1 Cor 7:23
AltruismThe belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.
Daj said. "I am the only person on the face of the earth that represents
my point of view." :iagree: :thumbsup:
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 07, 2013, 08:09:25 PM
Daj said. "I am the only person on the face of the earth that represents
my point of view." :iagree: :thumbsup:
Is it different from the communists and the fascists? I hope.
Just don't think you can own the fruits of my labor without my permission or compliance. Then your point of view is treading on me.
Quote from: Molly on February 07, 2013, 08:05:35 PM
That's the political expression of robbery and tyranny.
Go and read Animal Farm again.
Altruism comes from the heart, not from the point of a gun.
You were bought for a price. Stop becoming slaves of people.
--1 Cor 7:23
Altruism
The belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.
:thumbsup:
But the definition says "disinterested - concern" an oxymoron.
The opposite of love is not hate
the opposite of love is apathy
I therefore submit there is no such thing as disinterested concern. :Peace2: :icon_jokercolor:
I think by 'disinterested' it means you don't have a conflict of interest--such as we will be altruistic to all those who vote for me, or who are a member of the party, or who are a certain color of skin, or whatever agenda one might hold as a reason to appear 'generous.'
In which case, you are not 'disinterested,' but have an interest in an outcome.
4 Love [charity] is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way.
--1 Cor 13
OH...like christians that won't help another person unless they either "accept Christ" or at least listen to "the 4 spiritual laws" or are part of "their" group. Oh and finally... :laughing7:That's hypocritical. I don't want to be a hypocrite. I won't help anyone.
now, now... :laughing7:
In general, we have always had the reputation of being the most generous country in the world.
I know Molly. Next time you're debating an atheist that claims his way of life is better(yeah, they really do :laughing7:) ask him how many hospitals, schools, libraries, colleges, rescue and charitable organizations have been started by atheists. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Molly on February 07, 2013, 09:42:02 PM
I think by 'disinterested' it means you don't have a conflict of interest--such as we will be altruistic to all those who vote for me, or who are a member of the party, or who are a certain color of skin, or whatever agenda one might hold as a reason to appear 'generous.'
In which case, you are not 'disinterested,' but have an interest in an outcome.
4 Love [charity] is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way.
--1 Cor 13
Molly what would your definition of
unintersted be? Would they be the same?
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 07, 2013, 10:37:30 PM
I know Molly. Next time you're debating an atheist that claims his way of life is better(yeah, they really do :laughing7:) ask him how many hospitals, schools, libraries, colleges, rescue and charitable organizations have been started by atheists. :winkgrin:
One, but it folded right after their first prayer meeting.
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 07, 2013, 09:35:50 PM
The opposite of love is not hate
the opposite of love is apathy
Very good!
The emotional opposite of love is hate.
The intellectual opposite of love is fear.
The reactionary opposite of love is apathy.
These opposites of love are all negating.
The intellectual opposite of love is fear.
The intellect operates so efficiently and effectively ,
when not burdened with fear.