In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)

[dajomaco]

There's a difference between warning someone whose fruit doesn't require warning, and warning someone whose fruit DOES require it. For example, there is a big difference between Stephen being filled by the Holy Spirit and preaching the Gospel unto death

....and....

The man in the book of Corinthians who was sleeping with his father's wife and was cast out of the company for destruction of the flesh by Satan so that his spirit could be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5). If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.

If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.

Paul is not warning a buddy who was having an affair.

He was admonishing the church for being so ridicules as to
BRAG about the sexual immorality that was going on in this Church.

Paul was later concerned with restoring this brother to Grace.

[Seth]

There's a difference between warning someone whose fruit doesn't require warning, and warning someone whose fruit DOES require it. For example, there is a big difference between Stephen being filled by the Holy Spirit and preaching the Gospel unto death

....and....

The man in the book of Corinthians who was sleeping with his father's wife and was cast out of the company for destruction of the flesh by Satan so that his spirit could be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5). If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.

If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.

Paul is not warning a buddy who was having an affair.

He was admonishing the church for being so ridicules as to
BRAG about the sexual immorality that was going on in this Church.

Paul was later concerned with restoring this brother to Grace.

What I was saying is in response to how you told us we shouldn't point out another brother's sin. If I misunderstood you on that, I apologize, but if not, I think it is absolutely appropriate for us to help eachother in that way.

1 Cor 5:5
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

If I had a friend in the church who was sleeping with his father's wife, I ABSOLUTELY would warn him about it in all humility. And I hope he would do the same for me, and that in humility I could accept the admonition.

[sheila]

deaden therefore your body members. as respects fornication....very good example of what the spirit does.  Jezebel spirit teaches

  fornication/sexual immorality...I will throw her in a sick bed..and strike her children with death,unless they repent.....

if your eye makes you stumble,pluck it out[keep looking at a wman has already committed adultery in the heart]

    now,we also have Jesus words...let he who is without sin cast the first stone..in the matter of a woman caught in the act of

adultery.  Let his rebuke be sufficient for all..both those who cast a stone and those who would boast of sin.

[Seth]

If the guy who was cast out of the company of saints to Satan, and he had a friend who.didn't warn him, then the friend did not love him. It's not about throwing stones.

[micah7:9]

dajomaco, I, me, personally do not understand all of what you have said, or explained, would you offer more? Thanks

He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for Himself a people for His own possession, eager to do good works.

If I am free to do the good work of Loving my neighbor.
Weather I see their fruit as good or bad.

My response is the same to share and encourage them in the Grace of God
Jesus will produce the fruit through us.

:thumbsup: Thanks

[sheila]

Seth,I see the casting of stones as the LAW judgement..without mercy....to me Grace is long-suffering in allowing room for

  repentance...whereas under the law a tresspasser was put to death without mercy[grace long-suffering unto repentance]

     for God is not slack as some think...but is long-suffering..wanting all to come to repentance,that none perish......

      Jesus wrote about 'tolerating that Jezebel" and the results unless they repent...He stated to not tolerate it.  Jesus said,

    'I rebuke those I love"

   Grace per the Holy spirit doesn't burden,but there are a few necessary things.....

[Seth]

I see what you are saying.  :thumbsup: I think I misunderstood it.

Much of this talk about this sort of "live and let live" approach works fine for a forum, unless it becomes the sin of verbal abuse. But sexual sin would have no affect here because we don't all live together and share everything like the early church did. I used to live on a Christian commune when I was very young. We were all happy and it grew to 150 people and it really worked for years.

Then, the leader and founder began to show signs of abuse of power, and eventually had an affair with one of the member's wives. He was confronted about it and refused to repent. If he had repented, the situation would have been resolved through love and longsuffering. But his refusal meant that everyone left the commune and lived in town.

That sin and lack of repentance was like a wildfire that came and consumed and burned the whole fellowship to the ground, and everyone suffered for it, especially the children who had considered the place our home and had friendships with eachother. Sin is definitely not something to take lightly. It can root out and destroy everything you worked for.

[Seth]

That's why I always laugh when people tell us UR believers that we are saying "you can live how you want and still be saved." People who say that may not have yet experienced the dire consequences that sin can have.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: there's a differnce between necessary things as instructed by the Holy spirit[which are NOT burdensome] and the doctrines

and teachings of the pharisee/sadduceee[religious spirit usurper] in the churches with all their do this don't do that condemnatory

    judgement if you don't dance to thiertune.

    taking your Father's wife can also mean trying to lead about a sister/or church as your own instead of the rightful husband......

   the leader of the commune you were in tried to do just that with his abuse of power.......betrothed to Christ promised.. to God

  not your pastor/leader. thank goodness that his sheep reckognized His voice..and did not follow another in the matter.many

have to their harm.

    Paul continously warned with tears..for three years of this type who would rise up and come from within...that would not treat

  the flock with tenderness. a few years ago there was on tv this religious group of such men...that had all kinds of strict

regulations/dresses to the ankle,hair covered..etc..but it didn't stop them from lusting after the 13-18 year old sisters in the

congregation and taking how ever many they wanted for thier wives..for the lust of thier flesh[remind you of anyone? did not

keep their proper positions ] Nasty old lecherous men..who although they ruled oppressively over the women to the extent they did

in manner of dress etc of modesty..it held no power to stem their lust.  Same thing with the muslims,as far as I am concerned......

a wrist or face or ankle of a woman exposed to your eyes and you rape her..but she is the one who is evil. Heaven forbid they

see where the evil really dwells.

  and Seth,imo when they say..'you can live how you want and still be saved" what they really mean is 'you don't live how we think

you should"...and we are free in Christ from their authority...we are under our rightful husbands authority..not their's.....

a wife doesn't submit herself to every man that comes along..she submits herself to her husband only.....unless she is a babylon

who fornicates with the kings of the earth.   godless men who secreatly slipped in amng you..who change the grace of our god into

a license for immorality and denyJesus Christ our only saviour and Lord..........they would have you believe your salvation depended

on them!lol!

   when a person in repentance turns away from this world..seeking God..and are binded up with these types...seven spirits more

wicked have come..and they are twice the child of hell. See His eyes like a flame and write to the seven angels of the churches..as

He inspects the angels and councels/rebukes/commends..........Ephesus..left your first love..and false-apostles

  Smyrna...synagogue of satn, Pergamum.....teachings of Balaam,idoltry,sexual immorality,teaching of nicolaitins........

  Thyatira....Jezebel,sexual immoralityand idolatry...Sardis....spiritualdeath..name blotted out of book of Life........Philadelphia....

  door shut[foolish virgins]...Ladecia...spewed outof His mouth..wretched..pitiful blind naked shame


these things are overcome by the spirit of Christ..if not..you are two-fold the child of hell...for those that have traversed land and sea

to make you their proselyte..have made you such.

[Seth]

:thumbsup: there's a differnce between necessary things as instructed by the Holy spirit[which are NOT burdensome] and the doctrines

and teachings of the pharisee/sadduceee[religious spirit usurper] in the churches with all their do this don't do that condemnatory

    judgement if you don't dance to thiertune.

    taking your Father's wife can also mean trying to lead about a sister/or church as your own instead of the rightful husband......

   the leader of the commune you were in tried to do just that with his abuse of power.......betrothed to Christ promised.. to God

  not your pastor/leader. thank goodness that his sheep reckognized His voice..and did not follow another in the matter.many

have to their harm.

---

that had all kinds of strict

regulations/dresses to the ankle,hair covered..etc..but it didn't stop them from lusting after the 13-18 year old sisters in the

congregation and taking how ever many they wanted for thier wives..for the lust of thier flesh

Yes, it definitely takes wisdom to tell what is legalism and what truly is sin. If we understand that sin is lawlessness, and we know that Jesus has but two commandments: "believe in Christ and love eachother" I think the definition of lawlessness just got alot narrower than ankle length dresses and cigarettes, as I think we could both agree. Should women be attending a bible study in string bikinis, though, when everyone else is dressed modestly? I don't think so. Because that is not very loving to the sister who has a husband who may be tested by that. Yes, that's a purposefully absurd example, but just to show that it takes a balance and an understanding of what the commandments actually are, and why they are not grievous or heavy, but Christ has a light yoke. I don't think it's wrong to set standards, but I do think it is wrong to invent rules which have nothing to do with what Christ wants from the church. These things should be handled with care and wisdom, and always with the understanding of what Christ wants from us in terms of fruit. It should always be done in a spirit of love and NOT a spirit of power.

[onesimus]

I had a friend who used to say 'take the forest out of your own eye before you take the lumber yard out of mine', lol..

If you can excuse a personal testimony for a moment just because it was on my heart this morning and may have little to do with this discussion..A revelation once came to me as I was allowing the spirit to teach me how not to judge myself over what I saw as my many shortcomings (sins).

The picture that came to me at that time was that of a brain surgeon, who had himself got a brain tumor. And because he knew all about tumors and brain surgery he thought he could operate on himself and remove the tumor. I was like this surgeon. I was skilled in the knowledge of 'sin' and knew the verses about 'sin' and all the instructions and exhortations about overcoming 'sin'. I was very well qualified. And my judging myself was like this brain surgeon, standing in front of the mirror, trying to remove his own tumor... No matter how much that surgeon knew about tumors and what should be done to remove them, eventually, he still had to lay down on a table, go to sleep, and trust someone else do all the work..


Admittedly, my own language of self criticism and self judgement was quite extreme. My upbringing afforded a lot of it - without needing too much detail. Just to say there had been a lot of wounding and 'perceived' rejection by significant people in my life, where I felt I was misunderstood and judged etc. For me, this wounding gave me a skewered filter by which I saw others and the world, and God. But, it especially skewered my view of me. I'm blessed that over many years this filter has been renewed by his constant loving kindness. These days, one could easily accuse me of not seeing sin at all, lol...but it's just that I have a new language..Praise him for his ability to do for us what we are unable to do for ourselves..

[sheila]

love your testimony! I,too, had this constant accusing voice in my head....that His love and  patience had to still............

.......feeling condemned and hated  for  sin is not how anyone knows......BY THIS ALL MEN WILL KNOW THAT YOU ARE

  MY DISCIPLES...IF YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER.  As I have loved you,so you must love one another..


   I will not always find fault..for then even the spirit would fail before me........

[Seth]

It's interesting to read these testimonies because it helps see the perspective and I think they actually fit together pretty well. I don't think we should be hard on ourselves or each other. On the other hand, I think the existence of sin in the world is pretty clear and we should at least be watchful.

[sheila]

I just read over at Huffington post..that the Iranian kids that danced to 'Happy' the women unveiled..got 6 months jail time and

91 lashes..for offending PUBLIC CHASTITY...suspended for 3 years..but if the reoffend they'll get it.

   ...thing is..a lot of people have their ownideas of what's a sin...

[Seth]

Yeah, like how what they just did was a sin.  LOVE cannot be absent.

[micah7:9]

I just read over at Huffington post..that the Iranian kids that danced to 'Happy' the women unveiled..got 6 months jail time and

91 lashes..for offending PUBLIC CHASTITY...suspended for 3 years..but if the reoffend they'll get it.

   ...thing is..a lot of people have their ownideas of what's a sin...

I'm aghast and bowled over that you spend a moment at Huffington post. Just amazed.

[onesimus]

I just read over at Huffington post..that the Iranian kids that danced to 'Happy' the women unveiled..got 6 months jail time and

91 lashes..for offending PUBLIC CHASTITY...suspended for 3 years..but if the reoffend they'll get it.

   ...thing is..a lot of people have their ownideas of what's a sin...

91 lashes for dancing seems a bit steep...I would've thought 60 more reasonable :rolllol:

How blessed to be living in a very imperfect democracy..

[rosered]

I just read over at Huffington post..that the Iranian kids that danced to 'Happy' the women unveiled..got 6 months jail time and

91 lashes..for offending PUBLIC CHASTITY...suspended for 3 years..but if the reoffend they'll get it.

   ...thing is..a lot of people have their ownideas of what's a sin...

I'm aghast and bowled over that you spend a moment at Huffington post. Just amazed.

 


    Why so snarky Micah ?      Its a credible     news site       ?

  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/18/iranians-sentenced-happy-pharrell_n_5842532.html



I Do not think we realize  just how blessed we truly are   



  8Love never fails; for prophecies shall cease, tongues shall be silenced and knowledge will be nothing;

9For we know partially and we prophesy partially,


10But when perfection shall come, then that which is partial shall be nothing.


11When I was a child, I was speaking as a child, I was led as a child,

I was thinking as a child, but when I became a man, I ceased these childish things.


12Now we see as in a mirror, in an allegory, but then face-to-face.

Now I know partially, but then I shall know as I am known.


13For there are these three things that endure:

Faith, Hope and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.

[Seth]

12Now we see as in a mirror, in an allegory, but then face-to-face.

Now I know partially, but then I shall know as I am known.


13For there are these three things that endure:

Faith, Hope and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.

:thumbsup:

Wherever we find love absent, we find sin present.

[onesimus]

12Now we see as in a mirror, in an allegory, but then face-to-face.

Now I know partially, but then I shall know as I am known.


13For there are these three things that endure:

Faith, Hope and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.

:thumbsup:

Wherever we find love absent, we find sin present.

:thumbsup:

and when we speak the truth without love it loses its power to set free :)

[dajomaco]

 Seth Says
What I was saying is in response to how you told us we shouldn't point out another brother's sin. If I misunderstood you on that, I apologize, but if not, I think it is absolutely appropriate for us to help eachother in that way.

I refuse to look for sin.
I do not refuse to see sin.

When I refuse to look for sin .
I have to be shown  by the Holy Spirit , a particular Sin.
He can then instruct me how respond or what to say.

Until then I am like Sargent Shultz. 

[Seth]

Seth Says
What I was saying is in response to how you told us we shouldn't point out another brother's sin. If I misunderstood you on that, I apologize, but if not, I think it is absolutely appropriate for us to help eachother in that way.

I refuse to look for sin.
I do not refuse to see sin.

When I refuse to look for sin .
I have to be shown  by the Holy Spirit , a particular Sin.
He can then instruct me how respond or what to say.

Until then I am like Sargent Shultz. 

Edit: missed the "not" and so misrepresented Dajomaco. My apologies.  :friendstu:

[dajomaco]

So if you are really interested in protecting The Children.

Stop refusing to see what I am saying

[Seth]

When theology meets practical life, that's when the rubber meets the road.

[dajomaco]

I do not refuse to see Sin
I refuse to act a pond what I see until led by the spirit of God.
The only protection that the Children have is the Holy Spirit.