first lie

[Cardinal]

I appreciate your heart . . . I've learned much from you.

:cloud9: Thanks Nathan, ditto for me.... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

I appreciate your heart . . . I've learned much from you.

:cloud9: Thanks Nathan, ditto for me.... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Shucks..Where was the Snow ball Fight....guess i best go outside, and launch a few at the Kids :laughing7:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[ScarletWren]

I see some of what you all are saying about ourselves being the adversary, etc.

However, what do you do with the book of Job?  And other places where the scriptures picture interaction with God and Satan?  God asked Satan where he had been and Satan answered he was walking to and fro seeking whom he might devour.  I believe Revelation states something similar about him walking in the world.  Then God brings Job to Satan's attention.  He hardly would have needed to do that if he was speaking directly to Job's psyche.  Also when Christ was tempted, 'Satan' said he would give him these things IF Christ would bow down and worship Him.  I know scriptures are spiritual but I don't get that if it was something in Christ , That's not how we speak to ourselves.  Also scriptures in the NT state that we wrestle against principalities in high places and speaks of dominions, etc.  In seeking our own spritual growth, it can be ok to assume we have to conquer our own carnal reasonings, but I see there are also real spiritual demons, if you will.  God was in the spiritual realm when he asked who would go and tell a lie to one of the evil kings that would get him to go to the battle where he was killed.  Sorry, don't have chapter and verse.  And a spirit said he would go.  Do you really think God was speaking to that king's mind at the time?  Or to one particular prophet?  

I know that Satan and his messengers are not quite what they are pictured to be in gothic literature and some men's fanciful imaginations, but I don't think it's always just our carnal minds either.

Just 2 cents worth from a stubborn seeker.

[sheila]

  re;the temptation..

    what is more prestigous than being like God..what more

    powerful, what more riches, what more authority?

    He created Adam in His own image...being in His own image

    Adam would have come to have these very things..in God's

    time.   But, at that time...he was naked..lacking these things

    the temptation was...to get what you want and will be yours

    before the time[presumptousness] through ONE ACT

    of DISOBEDIANCE.

        this shows a lack of TRUST IN GOD.....Love and trust

   go hand in hand..they were naked because LOVE was not

   developed in them yet.Trust,neither

    satan can mean/slanderer....the liar LIED about God's

   character...in-SIN-u-ate[d] that God had lied...and that God

   just did not want them to be like Him. Anything not done in

  faith[assured expectation of the thing hoped for] is sin.

     Adam found that not only was his eyes opened..but that

  his nakedness was exposed[lack of love through disobediance]

      Our Father sent His son from heaven,One that is in His

  image ,and not deceived..and tried him in the wilderness

      Father then gave Him all power and authority and granted  

  Him  life in himself.He is made in the IMAGE OF GOD.

   Perfected LOVE AND TRUST WORKED THROUGH OBEDIANCE

  ....He has now gave us authority to eat

  from the tree of life...and says 'Come"

       It is in Faith that we partake of the tree of life..faith in

   HIS SON ...so it is no longer a sin to eat from that tree.

   Love and TRUST in GOD is established in the hearts of men..

   through the mercy that was extended to us who have

   been disobediant.

    James 5;7  Be pateint therefore.brethern,unto the

   coming of the Lord.Behold, the Husbandman waiteth for

   the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long pateince

   for it,until he receive the early and latter rain.

[ScarletWren]

mmm, yes Christ was in God's image. Yet He was said to be perfected through suffering.

And Adam and Christ were contrasted so, in my opinion, Adam wasn't really in God's image, but is being made in God's image.  As Zeek said.  Actually when we're in Christ, in that sense we're in His image, yet we must be perfected through suffering.  Again, there's justification, sanctification and glorification.  The process can hardly be complete until the glorification, can it?  Perhaps God sees it, but He still deals with our imperfections in our 'now.'  Until we reach the 'now' of our glorification, we still are incomplete.  Again, just how I see it.  Paul said he strove to reach the high calling, that didn't sound like he thought he was already there.  We can rest assured that we will get there, it's the timing that is in question.  We are creatures of time, at least now.  What happens 'then' is still in our future. 


aggh, I am going to go get ready for work.

you're all great.

[Nathan]

I see some of what you all are saying about ourselves being the adversary, etc.

However, what do you do with the book of Job?  And other places where the scriptures picture interaction with God and Satan?  God asked Satan where he had been and Satan answered he was walking to and fro seeking whom he might devour.  I believe Revelation states something similar about him walking in the world.  Then God brings Job to Satan's attention.  He hardly would have needed to do that if he was speaking directly to Job's psyche.  Also when Christ was tempted, 'Satan' said he would give him these things IF Christ would bow down and worship Him.  I know scriptures are spiritual but I don't get that if it was something in Christ , That's not how we speak to ourselves.  Also scriptures in the NT state that we wrestle against principalities in high places and speaks of dominions, etc.  In seeking our own spritual growth, it can be ok to assume we have to conquer our own carnal reasonings, but I see there are also real spiritual demons, if you will.  God was in the spiritual realm when he asked who would go and tell a lie to one of the evil kings that would get him to go to the battle where he was killed.  Sorry, don't have chapter and verse.  And a spirit said he would go.  Do you really think God was speaking to that king's mind at the time?  Or to one particular prophet?  

I know that Satan and his messengers are not quite what they are pictured to be in gothic literature and some men's fanciful imaginations, but I don't think it's always just our carnal minds either.

Just 2 cents worth from a stubborn seeker.

I know you're off to work now . .but I'll give you this so you'll have a little something for when you get back. 

I have often asked the same questions as you when dealing with Job and this conversation satan had.  I have my own "theory" on what I think went down . . . it's really based on my views alone of an overall picture rather than quoting a Scripture and interpreting it. . .which often times is the same thing anyway . . .

For me . . .there were MANY physical and visual events that were happening when Jesus died on the cross . . .thunderings, earthquakes, sky went black in the middle of the day, veil was torn, dead people walked . . .very dramatic things happening in the physical realm.

Leading up to this, there were a large number of demonic experiences taking place . .as well as after in the ministry of Paul and Peter and such . .. but when pertaining to Satan . . .I think things began to change for him beginning in the garden, then at the cross as well . . .in the garden, he was confined to his belly on the ground . . .yet in Job he says he's roaming to and fro on the earth . .. he was told in Genesis that his substance would be dust . . .

So . .. is all of this then saying that satan moves like we see a snake move?  And he only eats dirt to stay alive?  No?  This isn't to be taken literally then?  Ok, if that's not to be taken literally, then why would we assume we're to take literally the happenings with Job?

Keeping in mind, God's ways . .his realm, his "Truth" is not my image of what truth is . . .it's not my understanding of what a "realm" is . .and his ways and thoughts are intimidatingly higher than my thoughts could ever imagine.  But for me, if the pattern in the garden is one depicting the carnal, self-centered mind, then why would that be any different when satan is referenced speaking to God? 

[Cardinal]

I appreciate your heart . . . I've learned much from you.

:cloud9: Thanks Nathan, ditto for me.... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Shucks..Where was the Snow ball Fight....guess i best go outside, and launch a few at the Kids :laughing7:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

:icon_flower: You're just a born instigator, aren't you? <------- rofl

[sheila]

   My :2c:

    Satan is a spirit....just like God's Holy spirit can be in us

    have us have his mind...so too, can satan.......

    if satan is thrown down out of our heavens[throne/dominion

    or mind] woe to our earth[flesh] for that is where he will

   fight us...does our flesh seem to have a mind of it's own?

   does it present itself as an adversary against God's will?

   no wonder[could this be  signs and wonders?]

     Rev 12;12   Therefore, Rejoice,ye heavens, and ye that

  dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitors of the earth and of the

  sea...for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath

  because he knoweth that he has but a short time


   AND WHEN THE DRAGON SAW THAT HE WAS CAST UNTO THE

  , EARTH, HE  PERSECUTED THE WOMAN THAT BROUGHT FORTH

    THE MANCHILD  [son birthed that rose to throne of God]


    v15 and the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood

  after the woman[many waters can not quench love,SOS]

   THAT HE MIGHT CAUSE HER TO BE CARRIED AWAY OF THE

    FLOOD [condemned due to sin in flesh[dust of earth]

   And the earth HELPED the  woman, and the earth opened her

mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of

  his mouth.

                         Sheila

[sheila]

   Daniel 9;26

  and after threescore and two, Messiah shall be cut off, but not

  for himself; and the people of the PRINCE THAT SHALL COME

  [anti-christ?] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

  AND THE END THEREOF SHALL BE WITH A FLOOD

    Psalms 32;5,6   I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid.I said ,I will confess my transgressions
unto the Lord; and Thou forgavest the iniquity of mine sin

  For this shall everyone that is godly pray unto thee ,in a
  time when thou mayest be found; surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him


   Luke 17;26  Just as it was in the days of Noah,so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.People were eating,drinking,marrying and being given in marriage,
up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the FLOOD came and destroyed them all.

  Genesis 6;4  the Nephilim were on the earth in those days-

   Nephilim[fallen ones/ thrown out of heaven ones?]

  and also afterward....


  And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the

earth...and that every imagination of the thoughts of his

  heart was only evil continually.


   Result of the fallen ones being in the earth? I BELEIVE SO


   It is war...the kingdom of darkness against the sons of light


   Daniel 9;26  the end will come like a flood..the war will continue until the end,and desolations have been decreed

   Matthew 24;15  So, when you see standing in the holy place
   the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel- let the reader understand-

  then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

v 22..if those days had not been cut short, no-one would survive, but, FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT-those days
will be shortened

[Molly]

Regarding the ego--

It was Freud, a cocaine addicted misogynist, who said that the mind is split into ego, id, and superego.

The superego, being our conscience, and a terrifying and punishing conscience at that,  is the God replacement.

When God said that he would write his laws on our minds and hearts, did he mean to say--in order to terrorize us night and day?  No, Freud said that.

The id is our carnal and sensual, and, most particularly, our sexual desires--which according to Freud includes women desiring to become men rofl.  Maybe he was 'projecting'?

The ego is our rational mind--and therefore, our conscious (as opposed to subconscious) and best side.  All hail the ego!  But our subconscious mind is, by far, our more powerful mind, continually causing us problems.


But, from the point of view of the Bible, there are no such constructs---just asleep and awake (or what some call carnal and spiritual)--for which we are exhorted continually to wake up!



Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

[claypot]

This unfathomable power we call God and rightfully so decided in Its consciousness to make a being of intelligence much like Itself. The stuff of life and living are Its materials.

Now this intelligence needs to communicate to Its created thing so it does in secret messages and through various means. It also creates a very amazing instrument through which God can filter mysterious messages. This instrument that is installed in the created thing is called a brain and it is capable of great things. It is this brain that controls the created thing. Control the brain and the created thing is controled.

So now this Intelligence communicates and has other created things write down what is flowing through the brains. This is very complex to write about so stories are made up and even lived out so the created beings can know themselves and God.

Serpents, trees, apples, waters, and so on are created and used to communicate. Imagination is given to the brain to use to see God. Invisible thoughts arise from this brain like smoke from a fire. An awesome thing, this brain.

God strengthens this brain by introducing it to adversarial elements. The brain strains itself in trying to fathom all that is introduced to it. It sees evil where there really is only good.

God strengthens this brain through many mechanizations until it prevails and becomes a most formidable creation.

Yes all, I flipped, but my words mean much to me.

cp

[Molly]

Control the brain and the created thing is controled

Here, have some more--drugs, sex, alcohol, action movies, a new car, a weekend in vegas--sleep, my pretty....

It sees evil where there really is only good.

Yes, I am good for you, I will give you more--prestige, honor, knowledge, money, sex, and drugged transcendental experiences---sleep, my pretty...

God strengthens this brain through many mechanizations until it prevails and becomes a most formidable creation.

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

--Daniel 2

[claypot]

Here is my thought, I dont know if Im in the right place to  ask this but here it goes. In Gen. 3:1 didnt the serpent ask a question only in a different way that the Lord God commanded it in Gen.2:16-17? And if that is so, wasnt it the woman who said the first lie in Gen.3:3 when she said, ...neither shall ye touch it.".. Thanks

Serpent and woman are one and the same being. This is a conversation within the mind of a person. Information came from God to this person through the brain and was processed and an adversarial response was created.

God immediately took action to not only remedy this situation but to use it to further the beauty of the person.

cp

[claypot]

Control the brain and the created thing is controled

Here, have some more--drugs, sex, alcohol, action movies, a new car, a weekend in vegas--sleep, my pretty....

It sees evil where there really is only good.

Yes, I am good for you, I will give you more--prestige, honor, knowledge, money, sex, and drugged transcendental experiences---sleep, my pretty...

God strengthens this brain through many mechanizations until it prevails and becomes a most formidable creation.

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

--Daniel 2

I hear ya Molly. I'm glad you hear me.

cp

[Molly]

Here is my thought, I dont know if Im in the right place to  ask this but here it goes. In Gen. 3:1 didnt the serpent ask a question only in a different way that the Lord God commanded it in Gen.2:16-17? And if that is so, wasnt it the woman who said the first lie in Gen.3:3 when she said, ...neither shall ye touch it.".. Thanks

Serpent and woman are one and the same being. This is a conversation within the mind of a person. Information came from God to this person through the brain and was processed and an adversarial response was created.

God immediately took action to not only remedy this situation but to use it to further the beauty of the person.

cp

Or, another way to look at it--

God gave the man the commandment directly--the woman heard it second hand--so she was easily fooled when the serpent said--Yea, hath God said.... 

She wasn't really sure what God had said--because He hadn't said it directly to her.

Here is what God said--


15And the LORD God took the man [eth Adam], and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16And the LORD God commanded the man [al Adam], saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


This is the first place Adam is called al Adam [god-Man].   He has received the commandment directly from God.



John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

[claypot]

Molly, you wrote.....

God gave the man the commandment directly--the woman heard it second hand--so was easily fooled when the serpent said--Yea, hath God said.... 

She wasn't really sure what God had said--because He hadn't said it directly to her.

Woman, man and serpent are one person, every person that ever lived, lives and will live. This shows the complexity of a person and the reasoning powers each person has. This shows all that is involved in making a decision. Good input comes from God and is hashed out by a person through the amazing creation of God, the human brain.

cp

[Molly]

Molly, you wrote.....

God gave the man the commandment directly--the woman heard it second hand--so was easily fooled when the serpent said--Yea, hath God said.... 

She wasn't really sure what God had said--because He hadn't said it directly to her.

Woman, man and serpent are one person, every person that ever lived, lives and will live. This shows the complexity of a person and the reasoning powers each person has. This shows all that is involved in making a decision. Good input comes from God and is hashed out by a person through the amazing creation of God, the human brain.

cp

Yes, I understand what you're saying.  There are others who would say God, man, woman, and serpent are all one person.   It's just not instructive for me to think of it that way--at this time.

I see three in the garden--and Adam was supposed to take the place of God in relation to Eve and the serpent, because God wasn't there when the event happened.

[Taffy]

I appreciate your heart . . . I've learned much from you.

:cloud9: Thanks Nathan, ditto for me.... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Shucks..Where was the Snow ball Fight....guess i best go outside, and launch a few at the Kids :laughing7:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

:icon_flower: You're just a born instigator, aren't you? <------- rofl

:HeartThrob: :cloud9: :icon_flower:

[claypot]

Molly, you wrote.....

God gave the man the commandment directly--the woman heard it second hand--so was easily fooled when the serpent said--Yea, hath God said.... 

She wasn't really sure what God had said--because He hadn't said it directly to her.

Woman, man and serpent are one person, every person that ever lived, lives and will live. This shows the complexity of a person and the reasoning powers each person has. This shows all that is involved in making a decision. Good input comes from God and is hashed out by a person through the amazing creation of God, the human brain.

cp

Yes, I understand what you're saying.  There are others who would say God, man, woman, and serpent are all one person.   It's just not instructive for me to think of it that way--at this time.

I see three in the garden--and Adam was supposed to take the place of God in relation to Eve and the serpent, because God wasn't there when the event happened.

I understand Molly but am just a wee bit surprised because you of all people have encouraged me to man-up and not throw blame around for what I do. By seeing 3 or 4 beings in the garden we have more to blame. Kind of like Adam saying it is the womans fault and the woman saying it is the serpents fault.

I see one person, me, in the garden and this works for me but I understand completely that what works for me may not at all work for another. Seeing Scripture this way really personalizes Gods message for me. Can't get much more intimate than really believing God is talking directly to you!

cp

[Molly]

Molly, you wrote.....

God gave the man the commandment directly--the woman heard it second hand--so was easily fooled when the serpent said--Yea, hath God said.... 

She wasn't really sure what God had said--because He hadn't said it directly to her.

Woman, man and serpent are one person, every person that ever lived, lives and will live. This shows the complexity of a person and the reasoning powers each person has. This shows all that is involved in making a decision. Good input comes from God and is hashed out by a person through the amazing creation of God, the human brain.

cp

Yes, I understand what you're saying.  There are others who would say God, man, woman, and serpent are all one person.   It's just not instructive for me to think of it that way--at this time.

I see three in the garden--and Adam was supposed to take the place of God in relation to Eve and the serpent, because God wasn't there when the event happened.

I understand Molly but am just a wee bit surprised because you of all people have encouraged me to man-up and not throw blame around for what I do. By seeing 3 or 4 beings in the garden we have more to blame. Kind of like Adam saying it is the womans fault and the woman saying it is the serpents fault.

I see one person, me, in the garden and this works for me but I understand completely that what works for me may not at all work for another. Seeing Scripture this way really personalizes Gods message for me. Can't get much more intimate than really believing God is talking directly to you!

cp

wow I said that? about the blame thing?  that's cool.  we do have to take responsibility, I'm afraid.
Are you thinking that somehow, one part of you is talking directly to God, and the other part of you is not hearing it?

Remember, they didn't start blaming each other until their eyes were 'opened'--but notice, the serpent didn't dare open his mouth in the presence of God lol.  Who was he going to blame?

So one part of you knows what is going on and the other part is deceived?  And one part of you is evil and the other part good?  I'm not sure how you are working it out, exactly.

I really meant to say that Adam is supposed to be acting as agent for God.  I'm not prepared to say that Adam shirked that responsibility.  I think he did the only thing he could do,  given what was required.  As I've said before, I see him as first high priest, and the only blood he had to offer was his own.

There is not that much difference between Adam and ourselves in terms of what we are to do.  We, too, are acting as agents for God.  Jesus has given us his power of atty in that respect.  Sign my name to it, he says--whatever you ask for in my name...

But, if we cross the line from agent to 'we are in charge', we are [our own] God--then we become antiChrist.  I think it looks like Adam did that on the surface of things--that he made the decision for Eve instead of for the LORD God--but then later we find out this was no accident...


Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity,not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.




"creature"
G2937
κτίσις
ktisis
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.



G2936
κτίζω
ktizō
ktid'-zo
Probably akin to G2932 (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, that is, found (form originally): - create, Creator, make.

[claypot]

Molly, you wrote....

Are you thinking that somehow, one part of you is talking directly to God, and the other part of you is not hearing it?

So one part of you knows what is going on and the other part is deceived?  And one part of you is evil and the other part good?  I'm not sure how you are working it out, exactly.

I never look at it as one part this and one part that. It is all one. I am me.

Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man. A mystery to be sure but true as I see it.

There is the old man within my essence and there is the new man. Not 2 men, not even 2 entities. One man, me, one essence. I am the man God is making of me and I am a marred pot. I am both. I'm in a state of flux. Ever see the seething almost lifelike lava of boiling metal? It moves and changes and at every moment is turning solid and liquid and even a vaporous smoke all seemingly at the same time. Eventually it becomes what its master wants it to become and then it will be finished. I am finished in Christ, I am unfinished in Adam and between the 2 I am in a state of flux, of becoming.

cp

[Nathan]

Here's a little something to chew on . . .when God gave Adam his one commandment of what not to do . . . Eve existed . .but not in her independant form . . .she was "in" Adam when the law was given . .and when she was separated "from" Adam . .the law was still in her.  She is a reflection . . .her image mirrors Adam.  What is in him, is also in her. 

Paul stated that he died on the cross when Christ did because he was spiritually speaking, "in" Christ loins at his death.

The tribe of levi paid tithe to Melchezedek, even though they didn't exist yet, due to the fact that they were "in the loins" of Abraham.

Hebrews 7
8-10Or look at it this way: We pay our tithes to priests who die, but Abraham paid tithes to a priest who, the Scripture says, "lives." Ultimately you could even say that since Levi descended from Abraham, who paid tithes to Melchizedek, when we pay tithes to the priestly tribe of Levi they end up with Melchizedek.