Eternal life/heaven is biblical though... right?

[Seth]

The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.

While I agree with you that argument won't convince many....
Some will just say the horizon is infinity far away. It's not endless, but it just last infinitely long. All to eons varying from very short to long don't exclude an endless eon.
That's an assumption can't be proven wrong. The fact that the Bible defines olam over and over as something limited isn't proof it can't go beyond that.

If it is not endless but lasts infinitely long, then wouldn't it be endless? If an eon has a consummation, how could it last infinitely long?

As I understand the explanation of "olam" it is the horizon as far as the eye can see. The eye cannot see an infinite distance, which is why there is a concept of "to the horizon ... and beyond." You cannot have a "beyond" for something that is endless of itself. That's like, saying "forever and ever."

[rosered]

 
  I think the question is how many worlds are we considering here ?

    we have this one world
  but we know there is another world without end   right 
called the new heavens and earth     , this is the world without a beginning or end

as  this world we are in corruption is temporary    , just as our mortal bodies are temporary  , no life beyond   mortality

    the Spirit has no expiration date 

[Vic 2.0]

I think I understand now.  Took me a while, as I am not a scholar of these terms but would like to understand it better.  I've been shown by one of you plenty of verses that confirm we are all going to be "saved".  That's presumably from DEATH which = immortality.  I get that the phrase "eternal life" in the bible is a mistranslation, but if we're to become immortal, it does literally mean eternal life as far as I can tell.  So that's good news!  It does in fact seem like there is more than enough support for eternal salvation/immorality/eternal life, without referring to scriptures that may or may not use the same term as used to "refer to Hell" as eternal punishment.

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:

[Seth]

I think I understand now.  Took me a while, as I am not a scholar of these terms but would like to understand it better.  I've been shown by one of you plenty of verses that confirm we are all going to be "saved".  That's presumably from DEATH which = immortality.  I get that the phrase "eternal life" in the bible is a mistranslation, but if we're to become immortal, it does literally mean eternal life as far as I can tell.  So that's good news!  It does in fact seem like there is more than enough support for eternal salvation/immorality/eternal life, without referring to scriptures that may or may not use the same term as used to "refer to Hell" as eternal punishment.

Yes, there are two concepts to understand: life and immortality

2 Tim 1:10
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.


I think the reason Paul speaks of "life and immortality" is because he taught that "life" is to be free from sin (Romans 8, 1 Tim 5:6). But he also wants us to know that we will literally live forever too.

Jesus Christ: "I am the resurrection and the life."

[eaglesway]

  I think the question is how many world are we considering here ?

    we have this one world
  but we know there is another world without end   right 
called the new heavens and earth     , this is the world without a beginning or end

as  this world we are in corruption is temporary    , just as our mortal bodies are temporary  , no life beyond   mortality

    the Spirit has no expiration date

Good point Rose, as in certain instances and in many Hebrew reference books olam has to do with world or "other worldly" or the "world beyond". It is translated "world" in places as is aion. The only reason aion could be translated as "world, imo, is a carry over from olam, because aion has no feature of world connected to it that I kno of.

[Tom]

The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.

"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Is God limited to the eons? Personally, I think we go WAAAYYY to far in UR to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture.. It is as if we think by accepting that olam sometimes refers to endlessness we are yieding to it meaning endlessness when referring to hell.

Yahweh El Olam, however, is not limited to the eons. He abides forever So will the sons of God.

I believe God transcends time, of which the eons are indefinite but finite periods, and God created the eons through Christ. So I don't understand how somebody could think God is "limited to the eons." I don't understand what you mean about going way too far "to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture." Scripture says the eons have consummations and a consummation. I think the concept of eternity is not in the ancient scriptures. Someone might cite Romans 1:20, but I think the Greek "aidios" means "imperceptible" not "eternal." (see the attachment) Despite the fact that the word is not in scripture, I think only God could be said to be "eternal" because he has no beginning or end. As I said before, God transcends time because it is part of his creation. So I think we will have "immortality" as scripture promises, but I think it is inaccurate to say we will have "eternal life." I think that can only be said of God. After the consummation of the eons, we may have a completely different perception of time if time even exists anymore. We may just perceive everything in the present as it seems God does because he knows what we perceive as the past and the future. I think I remember hearing that there is no past or future tense in Hebrew, and, if my memory is correct, that may be the reason for that. I think folks are just so used to saying "eternal life" that they don't want to give it up even though "immortality" means we will never die again. How can it be said that we will have "eternal life" if we had a beginning? I think, instead of us going way too far "to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture," some folks like to stretch the meaning of "eternal" into "perpetual." When you say "Yahweh El Olam, however, is not limited to the eons. He abides forever So will the sons of God," I think you're mixing a couple of ideas. I've already said I think God "is not limited to the eons," but I think saying, "He abides forever So will the sons of God" kind of confuses the issue. I think "forever" can progress from now on from a starting point, but God existed before there even was a starting point because he is outside time. In other words, we will live "forever" after we receive "immortality," but we have not always lived as God has. That's why the whole "eternal life" thing is confusing, and it's not scriptural anyway. I think the Greek "aion," and the corresponding Hebrew "olam," signify a period of time, not eternal, infinite, or endless time, that can be the three days Jonah was in the great fish or the millennium to come, and we don't know how long the final eon will last. The point is I don't see why somebody needs to cling to the concept of "eternal life" when we all obviously had a beginning, and that means we can't be "eternal." The words "eternal," "everlasting," and my favorite "for ever and ever" are really comical if you think about it just like much of the rest of church doctrine. Monty Python and Mel Brooks come to mind. I guess it's really a comedy/horror combo though. I mean the idea that somebody who has a beginning can stay alive after they die to be tortured in fire from before time was created to "for ever and ever," and why not just add another "ever" for good measure? is really wacko! I think anybody who is familiar with an accurate translation of scripture, and considers a literal interpretation of the word "eternal," should think "eternal life" can really only apply to Yahweh Elohim, the creator of all including time.

"To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations, and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all, that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God, in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord" (Ephesians 3:8-11)

[attachment deleted by admin]

[gregoryfl]

What's your view on the view that Mat 25:46 is about the quality of life?

That would make the list:
Olam=duration
Olam=source
Olam=quality

Most definitely quality is tied into it as well. That quality is tied, however, to the source from which it comes, and which characterizes it. Life olam, for the people back then, was not a new concept Yeshua invented when he came on the scene. It was imbedded as a hope for his people, as an inheritance, and it was tied to the age of Mashiach. All that characterized his appearing characterized that life.

Ronen

[rosered]

 

I for one think
   the old  language  of  scriptures   is considered the dark ages   , when we have the Day,,,   Light of Christ with us now , its the SPIRIT that gives life

    and Just like the old wine
  who would  drink old wine  when the new one is better ? 
  some will say the old is better , but those are the ones without new wine skins yet !

  everything has its place     !  the Testimony of Jesus  Christ IS the Spirit of Prophecy     
I want to witness     the same  testimony of Jesus Christ       as many are my brethren  and  fellow heirs  with Christ     

Romans 8 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,


17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Spirit and Truth      has no boundaries !    the Word of God is not bound !!    Jesus   Christ is the Word of God

[Vic 2.0]

So are there any verses in the bible to indicate that we will be in heaven FOREVER (WITHOUT using the word aionos), or not?

Or is it just as biblical to believe we'll only be drawn unto Jesus for a set amount of time and then die, be destroyed, etc.

Thank you all for your patience!

[WhiteWings]

Or is it just as biblical to believe we'll only be drawn unto Jesus for a set amount of time and then die, be destroyed, etc.

1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

The concept of death no longer exists so nobody will die. Ok, you could assume God reintroduces death after a while. But that has no Biblical support whatsoever.

[eaglesway]

IMO

The dependency of some UR believers on the set value of aionios- an age- is not necessarily perfect, since aionios is a translation of "olam" (hebrew)

In over 400 OT occurences the value of olam is not set, it varies as an unknown quantity depending on the value of the subject it is applied to.

Meaning, depending on the context, "from ancient times" or the "distant future" -when conjoined with God (YHWH olam) it means eternal, evelasting, through the ages and beyond", when conjoined with the lives of believers it means the same thing, because God is the source and the measure of their life.

So when speaking of "aionios zoe" which is olam life, Jesus means everlasting- or more appropriately(and in keeping with aionios) into the age beyond the ages.

When speaking of olam correction, "aionios kolassis" or fire "aionios pyr" although some say it means a set period(age), it means an indefinite period(although within an age), measured by whatever it takes for the correction to be effected.

At a certain point, time will be no more, there will be no more ages, no more correction, all will be subjected to the love of God in Christ. God, the infinite immortal One, will be all in all. All will live forever.

Heaven is a state of being. In terms of place, it is a matter of being "within the veil" or "in the spirit" or better yet, in the context of your question, heaven is "in the presence of God", so.....

We will live forever because we will be filled up to all the fulness of God, and God who lives forever will be all in all. The exact nature of that existence has not yet be revealed, "Brethren, we kno not yet what we will be but we know that when he appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is".

You can examine olam for yourself and its various applications here.        http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

[eaglesway]

IMO

The dependency of some UR believers on the set value of aionios- an age- is not necessarily perfect, since aionios is a translation of "olam" (hebrew)

In over 400 OT occurences the value of olam is not set, it varies as an unknown quantity depending on the value of the subject it is applied to.

Meaning, depending on the context, "from ancient times" or the "distant future" -when conjoined with God (YHWH olam) it means eternal, evelasting, through the ages and beyond"- because altho unknown olam) and far distant(olam) God is eternal. when conjoined with the lives of believers it means the same thing, because God is the source and the measure of their olam life(aionios zoe).

So when speaking of "aionios zoe" which is olam life, Jesus means everlasting- or more appropriately(and in keeping with aionios) into the age beyond the ages.

When speaking of olam correction, "aionios kolassis" or fire "aionios pyr" although some say it means a set period(age), it means an indefinite period(although within an age), measured by whatever it takes for the correction to be effected.

At a certain point, time will be no more, there will be no more ages, no more correction, all will be subjected to the love of God in Christ. God, the infinite immortal One, will be all in all. All will live forever.

Heaven is a state of being. In terms of place, it is a matter of being "within the veil" or "in the spirit" or better yet, in the context of your question, heaven is "in the presence of God", so.....

We will live forever because we will be filled up to all the fulness of God, and God who lives forever will be all in all. The exact nature of that existence has not yet be revealed, "Brethren, we kno not yet what we will be but we know that when he appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is".

You can examine olam for yourself and its various applications here.        http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

[Seth]

So are there any verses in the bible to indicate that we will be in heaven FOREVER (WITHOUT using the word aionos), or not?

Or is it just as biblical to believe we'll only be drawn unto Jesus for a set amount of time and then die, be destroyed, etc.

Thank you all for your patience!

There's actually no verbatim verse that says Christians die and go to heaven. Even ETers have to admit that. However, we can derive much from looking at the scriptures together. The Bible says we will have immortality, we have bodies in Heaven waiting for us, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, the gift and calling of God is irrevocable and being with Christ is a gift of grace, Paul said he longed to be with Jesus after he died, and again, "this mortal must put on immortality." The translation of aionios cannot affect the duration of immortality. Immortals don't die.

[Seth]

I believe heaven is a reference to the heavens and the earth, the sky and the ground, where the sky is comparable to God's higher state of being compared to man's lower state, which is why I think Jesus said that the son of Man was in heaven even while he was among them on earth. Much of what ideas taught about heaven as a locale with gold streets and angels with harps is taken from symbolic language in the prophecies. Paul said he'd had an experience where he went to the "third heaven" but decided it was indescribable, so I don't try to seek out descriptions of the indescribable. So I agree, I'm not prone to viewing it as a location. Wherever God is, there's heaven. Anything beyond that, I believe, a mystery. In any case, when we look at 1 Cor 15 as WW mentioned, we see Jesus doing all the work and God being all in all. There are no "if...then..." conditions in it and the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. No takey backsies and when death is destroyed what's left but life everywhere?

[Vic 2.0]

These are really good answers.  I particularly appreciate WhiteWings' approach because it is simple and logical.  Handled directly and literally, if death is destroyed, it is no more.  And if there is no more death, no one can die (obviously).  I should think it'd be incredibly difficult for anyone to argue with that.

So if we couple "Eventually, there will be no death" with "Jesus said that if he was resurrected he would draw everyone to himself", I think that's a pretty good case for Universalism.

Of course I could be missing something, who knows?

[WhiteWings]

Of course I could be missing something, who knows?

More accepted/known in Jewish circles is that death is also the name of an angel.
Rev 9:11 Abaddon/Apollyon (Hades).

But his kingdom is destroyed/taken away 1 Cor 15:55-56


I guess it's just a different way to say the same thing  :winkgrin:

[bushy]

So are there any verses in the bible to indicate that we will be in heaven FOREVER (WITHOUT using the word aionos), or not?

Or is it just as biblical to believe we'll only be drawn unto Jesus for a set amount of time and then die, be destroyed, etc.

Thank you all for your patience!

There's actually no verbatim verse that says Christians die and go to heaven. Even ETers have to admit that. However, we can derive much from looking at the scriptures together. The Bible says we will have immortality, we have bodies in Heaven waiting for us, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, the gift and calling of God is irrevocable and being with Christ is a gift of grace, Paul said he longed to be with Jesus after he died, and again, "this mortal must put on immortality." The translation of aionios cannot affect the duration of immortality. Immortals don't die.

I think heaven should be 'the heavens', which is anything above the earth. Here is a verse that says we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

[sheila]

O"DEATH!,I SHALL BE THY PLAGUES!  DEATH is consumed of His love and jealousy for His creation.  SOS 8;6 Place me

  like a seal over your heart,like a seal on your arm...for love is as strong as death..it's jealousy as unyielding as the grave.

  It burns like blazing fire,like a mighty flame!