Does God (Really) Desire All to Be Saved?

[marie glen]

A web page - http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-god-really-desire-all-to-be-saved

here's what the article says:

On the extent of who will be saved, the Bible makes two clear points:

God desires that all sinners be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23; Matthew 23:37).
God chose some people from eternity past (the elect), to be saved unconditionally, and only those elect will genuinely respond to the gospel and be saved (Matthew 22:14; John 6:37, 44, 65; 8:47; 10:26–29; Romans 8:29–30; 9:6–23; 11:5–10; 1 Corinthians 1:26–30; Ephesians 1:4–5; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; James 2:5).
But how these two biblical truths (that seem to contradict) actually relate, has perplexed theologians and inquiring Christian minds for many centuries, sparking vigorous debates and (more recently) fiery comment threads on Facebook.

This pair of doctrines force questions like:

Can God genuinely will that all be saved (1), and yet only choose to save only some, the elect (2)?
Is it even logical to hold that God can at the same time will salvation for all (1), and not will salvation for all (2)?
If (1) and (2) are true, is God schizophrenic or confused? (1 Corinthians 14:33)
Or can a sovereign, all-powerful God who does whatever he pleases, hold wishful desires for the salvation of all that he cannot fulfill?
Which leads to asking, is there a power in the universe greater than God, frustrating his desires?
Or can God will in different ways simultaneously?
Or should modern Christians simply downplay election in order to highlight God's desire for the salvation of all?
Because if we equally hold to election, isn't our general offer of the gospel to all sinners disingenuous?
And won't election erode the energy and incentive for global missions and evangelism that we derive from God's desire for all to be saved?
And how does the ultimate aim of God's own glory factor into this discussion?
These are just a few of the thick questions involved.

Finding the answers is like climbing Mount Everest. Not everyone is up for the climb, but we believe it can be done, and there are guides to help if you want to make the attempt. John Piper offers himself as a Sherpa of sorts for the steep climb in his new little book, Does God Desire All to Be Saved?

If you're asking these types of questions — and if you're up for the climb — the 50-page book is available as a free download here, or purchase here.

Likely locked up in a box titled "all during this life span only"

Are there any verses which say, after this life, all hope is lost? (besides by Dante? which line I believe is his(?)

And besides the verse where Jesus tells the pharisees unless they repent they will die in their sins.. which to me simply means to die in one's sins is to rise in one's sins.. but to say it is an 'eternal' state is, imo, to go further than what the Word of God actually says.. although as we know the translations say "for ever and ever" etc.. (from aionian, etc / eon / age - 'day')
   :Peace2: :cloud9:

[sheila]

on that day God alone will be exalted.......no flesh shall boast.the saints were

overcome . because of these three testimonies,such statements....as 'we are of the

elect" etc...I can not stomach anymore. Remembering Israel's fall d/t exclusivitiy/pride

and frankly the state of Christendom....it is beside me how any man could

exalt/elevate himself over another. as we have all bore the image of the corrupt...

so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt.  any jealousy between Judah and

Israel must go. :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

Well, this "Sherpa" must go up to I Corinthians 3:10-15 -

"10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

SO - if your works endure, you get a reward, and I'm thinking that reward will be to inherit in the Kingdom as a co-heir with Christ.  I tend to think this group is the Elect.

OTOH, if your works are burned up, you will still be saved, but you will suffer loss.  I tend to think that the loss is the right to inherit in the Kingdom, making you of a lower rank than the Elect.

[Patinak]

on that day God alone will be exalted.......no flesh shall boast.the saints were

overcome . because of these three testimonies,such statements....as 'we are of the

elect" etc...I can not stomach anymore. Remembering Israel's fall d/t exclusivitiy/pride

and frankly the state of Christendom....it is beside me how any man could

exalt/elevate himself over another. as we have all bore the image of the corrupt...

so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt.  any jealousy between Judah and

Israel must go. :2c:

Amen Sheila!

[rosered]

on that day God alone will be exalted.......no flesh shall boast.the saints were

overcome . because of these three testimonies,such statements....as 'we are of the

elect" etc...I can not stomach anymore. Remembering Israel's fall d/t exclusivitiy/pride

and frankly the state of Christendom....it is beside me how any man could

exalt/elevate himself over another. as we have all bore the image of the corrupt...

so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt.  any jealousy between Judah and

Israel must go. :2c:

Amen Sheila!

And amen again !    Word of God speaks ''living Words of Life '' to our hearts ,letting us know ,the kingdom of God is within you /near you , close as a brother !  The lease you have done unto the little ones you have done unto Me ..

  To'' GOD BE THE GLORY''  for all He  has done  , does and doing . ...  Was , is,  and will be .

Matthew 18   
   

[GodIsLove]

on that day God alone will be exalted.......no flesh shall boast.the saints were

overcome . because of these three testimonies,such statements....as 'we are of the

elect" etc...I can not stomach anymore. Remembering Israel's fall d/t exclusivitiy/pride

and frankly the state of Christendom....it is beside me how any man could

exalt/elevate himself over another. as we have all bore the image of the corrupt...

so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt.  any jealousy between Judah and

Israel must go. :2c:

Amen Sheila!

And amen again !    Word of God speaks "living Words of Life " to our hearts ,letting us know ,the kingdom of God is within you /near you , close as a brother !  The lease you have done unto the little ones you have done unto Me ..

  To" GOD BE THE GLORY"  for all He  has done  , does and doing . ...  Was , is,  and will be .

Matthew 18   

Amen Sheila and Rose! Great posts

[marie glen]

Well, this "Sherpa" must go up to I Corinthians 3:10-15 -

"10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

SO - if your works endure, you get a reward, and I'm thinking that reward will be to inherit in the Kingdom as a co-heir with Christ.  I tend to think this group is the Elect.

OTOH, if your works are burned up, you will still be saved, but you will suffer loss.  I tend to think that the loss is the right to inherit in the Kingdom, making you of a lower rank than the Elect.

Amen! (and to all posts above!)

Imagine working for many years, proclaiming "burn or turn" (oops, make that turn or burn :laughing7: ) or some such, which btw, rather ridicules our heavenly Father and His Saving Gospel/Good News.. So though such may gain some benefit.. some coming to the faith, I believe it pushes many (many) more away.. Quite a dilemma really.. No wonder many who preach don't mention it.. that, I believe is rather wise.. But I can't help but confront it rather than ignore it.. but which does get one into trouble sometimes.. but i think of the world wide web as an open door..

[darryl]

doesnt say anywhere in the Bible that this life is absolutely our last chance...to the contrary, didnt Jesus preach to the souls in prison from Noah's time ?...if there's anything the Bible has, it's hope.

[rosered]

Yes Darryl, faith , Hope and Love , love is the greatest sacrifice    :HeartThrob:

  It says  anyone  whom  hates brother is same as  a murderer  and we see hate in this world because of all the killing  in the literal ,

  but the  same can be said of   thinking  with the carnal  mind of death , making us all   weak in the sense of  humanness and frailty  ,
powerless over the elements , but we have Jesus ,Greater is He that is in you than in the world  , having the strength of Christ  in you the HOPE of glory to God and overcoming the world    by the LOVE OF GOD  working in you by the HOLY SPIRIT OF LIFE .

This has no end or beginning  But  is with  you always ,to the end of  the earthly .


1John 3 Love One Another
...14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers.

The one who does not love remains in death.

15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.

16By this we know what love is: Jesus laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers....

Laying down our lives is the same type of sacrifice of Love is  overcoming the world   [  same  Cross of forgiveness  of the worlds sin and errors of doing, BEING  ''DEATH'' ] Jesus SAID  , laying it down to TAKE IT BACK UP AGAIN   , a better Resurrection    for sure  and many times over ....    Spiritually speaking       , This is the working of the Holy Spirit  of Life     within us   to me  that not all  have obtained while being mortal  still .
Who ever wants to save his life shall loose it and whom ever  losses his life for my sake shall find it , We find  what Love really means and is ! :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

 :2c:   entering in joy vs entering/inheriting without joy. as we approach the fullness of the measure of Christ..our JOY increases.

...joy is a most desirable fruit of the spirit. Consider the meager fruitage of joy..due to little faith....only a few saved.  to the bounty

and abundance of the salvation of His whole creation. Joy at the work of His hands! delight and awe of your Father and Jesus'work.

   faith in the assured expectation .  when I'm called home I expect a great crowd no man can number..I expect

all who have died to be there to greet me..no men dead in their graves waiting for the resurrection........the loss as far as I can see

is the great joy that could have been..but was not..because we/you had such little faith and were thinking/depending on the work of

our/ men's hands[with gold/silver/wood/hay stubble] the joy that was,was not, yet is...versus the carnal beast that was is not yet is...

  that overcomes/kills the testimony of the two witnesses[Jesus and God] so it appears the Word of God was of no effect and fruitless.

  man..though held in honour....without understanding is as the beast that perisheth.  John 6;50  this is the bread that cometh

down from heaven that a man may eat thereof and not die....spiritual bread and life-giving substinance for your spirit eternally.

......all my religious works of self-righteousness become a heap of rubble....a testimony to my little faith...but His burning them

  up and the suffering of their loss/dross of them opened the door to a roomier place.....life more abundantly in HIM....

...leaving my own carnal building program behind....I can place Him as a seal on my heart and arm...assured that He will cause

  desire in my heart to do His will [arm]....and knowing I can do nothing of myself..but remaining in Him...He can find use for us

to do His pleasure...respecting His headship and trusting in His administration..instead of trying to administer/direct myself.


   if He does not draw them on this side[levites encamped around the tabernacle..not the other tribes] who are we to judge/tell

  Him differently?surely we know His power by now...that He can cause a Cyrus that doesn't even know Him to desire and do his will.

   Surely God's goodness and sweetness..is the remedy for the bitterness of this expierence of evil....and will heal His creation..

  and His arm is not too short to accomplish all He has said He will do. So rejoice along with me,today..that He is ours and we are His.

.......

[Patinak]

So rejoice along with me,today..that He is ours and we are His.

amen!

[rosered]

So rejoice along with me,today..that He is ours and we are His.

amen!

:dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen., I saw a movie or program not long ago where loved ones who thought one another had perished - died in a calamity, but after a while found each other alive and were oh SO happy! And of course I had to think of our Heavenly Father's ultimate victory when all have been resurrected and brought to the faith.. all loved ones united.. oh what glory!! [how can any believer not believe that!? The 'other' gospel is so meager.. so terribly narrow - and the narrow way means truth in this world is narrow with wide ditches on either side.. noT that His kingdom is narrow  :dsunny:
P.S. - don't they know He's perfect?

[chester-blowfold]

This is about God's desire for all to be saved.
Are there actual verses where God does save all?

[Lazarus Short]

This is about God's desire for all to be saved.
Are there actual verses where God does save all?

It is not stated directly so much, but it is stated that saving all is God's Will.  His Plan, however, seems to be to save some, then others, then all.  I came to the realization that since God is all-powerful, then His Will will certainly be done.  I keep asking of Damnationists how anyone can still be dead and/or in Hell after Death has been destroyed, but have not gotten a good answer so far.  I have also asked how God can ever become All in all if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, and again, no good answer.  I do get called a Heretic. 

I think God often fails to tells us right up front, so we have to go into Scripture over and over to find the nuggets of Truth...and it's a good thing because the Bible says it is the Glory of God to conceal a matter, and the glory of kings to disclose them. [that's from memory]  So you see, we are being told that anyone who can wring a new Truth from Scripture is a King!

[eaglesway]

Jesus said, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me" Jn 12:32

and Paul said,"As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" 1 Cor 1522

[bushy]

In my opinion, there are many verses that plainly state that all will be saved unless you are twisting things to fit ET.

Philippians 2:9-11 
9 Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place, and gave Him the name above all names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.…

It is twisting the truth of these verses to say at that time it is too late to repent and be saved, and people will be forced to confess Jesus as Lord before they are thrown into the fire. How can that be "To the glory of God"?  Our Father is not a communist dictator. He forgives His enemies and if we want to be like Him we will forgive ours too.

1 John 4:14   
"The Father has sent His Son to be the savior of the world". Does that mean He gave it His best shot and failed? Of course not because God is love and love never ever fails.

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

[chester-blowfold]

Thanks all.
eaglesway, where was that last verse from?

[eaglesway]

Colossians chapter 1. Paul goes into great detail there to explain that all will be reconciled :o)

[Cristina100]

I heard that some calvinist preachers say all does not mean all. How to reply to them?

[darryl]

I heard that some calvinist preachers say all does not mean all. How to reply to them?

if the word #all# doesnt meant #all# then one can make the Bible say what they like.

[marie glen]

Amen!!

I like how Ephesians 1:9-10 says it -

9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

~ the mystery of His will... that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

And, Psalm 22:27

27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.

and so many more.. both straight forward and implied..

I like Jabcat's list of 77 -
- http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

And, the back of the book! :laughing7:
"Behold I make all things new" - "there shall be NO MORE death, NOR PAIN, nor SORROW" none, nada.. no-where.. right? (The whole outside the gates" and "outer darkness" therefore, must be a looking backward.. For He says at a certain point in time - "the fullness of time" / "He shall be all in all" - that there shall be no pain.. no suffering.. i.e. no torment.. :gsmile:

But this I think is my personal favorite -

1 Corinthians 15:22-28

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

....1 Corinthians 15:22-28New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father... that God may be all in all.
    :banana:

[eaglesway]

I heard that some calvinist preachers say all does not mean all. How to reply to them?

IMO the most comprehensive definition of "the all" is in Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

All that was created
All that He is before
Everything over which He reigns supreme

The word "pas" means all and it is used in everyplace in Col 1 15-20 that says "all" or "everything". If He is reconciling "all"- it is the same "all" which He created.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:3

This is not the only place where this is stated. It is also stated in 1 Cor 15:28

When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

This verse shows that after "every knee bows"(2 Phil:9-11), God will become all in all

Also in Romans 11:32-36

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory

And Eph 1:9-11

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up(gathering together into one kjv) of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Not to mention our Lord's own words

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." John 12:32

and

5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Rv 21:5

If all does not mean all in all these verses, how can we depend on the scriptures at all? :o)