Could anyone help me find some evidence that the whole thing was made up by the catholic church?
:cloud9: I'm sure someone will be along to answer you, but could you elaborate a little on what you mean? Not coming from a Catholic background, it's not clear to me. Thanks.....
Mortal Sin - it's subject is a grave matter, it was committed with full knowledge that was a mortal sin, and was committed with deliberate and complete consent, condemns
one to hell.
Venial Sin - Any sin that doesn't meet all the requirements of a mortal sin, condemns one to purgatory.
I'm worried that God will stop listening to my prayers because I did something that the Catholic Church considers a mortal sin, knowing that it was a mortal sin, and did with deleberate consent (i won't go into details but it begins with m)
Because of the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ you can boldly walk straight up to the throne of God and talk to Him man to Glorified Man.
Quote from: DaneClark on July 24, 2010, 09:54:50 PM
Mortal Sin - it's subject is a grave matter, it was committed with full knowledge that was a mortal sin, and was committed with deliberate and complete consent, condemns
one to hell.
Venial Sin - Any sin that doesn't meet all the requirements of a mortal sin, condemns one to purgatory.
I'm worried that God will stop listening to my prayers because I did something that the Catholic Church considers a mortal sin, knowing that it was a mortal sin, and did with deleberate consent (i won't go into details but it begins with m)
Hi Dane. First - you do know that a mortal sin can be forgiven, right? You say the church considers what you did a mortal sin ... what do you think? Do you feel you've sinned? Is it something you feel a need to confess and repent of, or not really?
Those are things only you can answer, between you & the Holy Spirit. But I can tell you where the teaching comes from; you can decide for yourself if it is a sound teaching or not.
1 John 5:16-17 is the basis for this teaching: "If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."
There are other passages that support the idea of "not all sins are equal," including Jesus' words in John 19:11: "Jesus answered (him), You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin."
Here (http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/04/mortal-venial-sin-garden-variety.html) is a pretty good article about the topic, if you're interested in more.
I urge you to be still, speak with Him; He will guide you on this. :grouppray:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 24, 2010, 10:19:07 PM
Because of the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ you can boldly walk straight up to the throne of God and talk to Him man to Glorified Man.
amen
Don't be shy.
Not sure if it'd be sound ground to build on with the idea of greater or lesser sins . . .because other passages elude to the fact if you break one law, you've broken all of them. I would also challenge you to consider what kind of relationship you have with the Father . . .is it a personal one between you and the Father, or is it based on other men's requirements, restrictions, permissions.
Zechariah 4:7
Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
The foundation God is buiding in us is not one of judgment and condemnation, but one of grace. Religion has not yet embraced this.
The Catholic Church may rule over their un-biblical Hell teachings; but they do not control the SPIRIT.
When you were dead in your transgressions and the un-circumcision of your flesh, the SPIRIT made you alive together with Christ,
having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile
to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Does that mean we should continue to sin, missing the mark?
Of course not, there are still consequences associated with them in this life when brought before the magistrates charged with the
administration of the law of the land. Now, is judgment brought upon you, but we will all face the grave matter for death is a given.
peacemaker
If the stuff that Catholics about penance and mortal sin was made up, then why did going to confession make ke feel more peaceful today?
:cloud9: Because you believe it.....start washing your mind with the water of the Word, and you'll be surprised what you see.....blessings....
Quote from: DaneClark on July 25, 2010, 01:48:57 AM
If the stuff that Catholics about penance and mortal sin was made up, then why did going to confession make ke feel more peaceful today?
Confess your sins and he is faithfull and just to forgive.
I think one thing the catholics do well is confession, I think confession is a great tool that the bible says to do. Most Christians make confessions but only few confess before men. Confessing before God is much easier than men, but scripture says that confessing before men is also an option. I think its similar to sabath day keeping, you don't have to do it but those that do get a special blessing. :2c:
"Confess, one to another; and forgive, one another."
My apologies, if I do not confess before you. :laughing7:
Never could bring myself to kiss another man's hand.
peacemaker
Quote from: Cardinal on July 25, 2010, 02:01:23 AM
:cloud9: Because you believe it.....start washing your mind with the water of the Word, and you'll be surprised what you see.....blessings....
(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/2216/2216114gfkoz6m7kc.jpg) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
Now, that's a truth with a promise.
Quote from: thinktank on July 25, 2010, 02:15:39 AM
Quote from: DaneClark on July 25, 2010, 01:48:57 AM
If the stuff that Catholics about penance and mortal sin was made up, then why did going to confession make ke feel more peaceful today?
Confess your sins and he is faithfull and just to forgive.
I think one thing the catholics do well is confession, I think confession is a great tool that the bible says to do. Most Christians make confessions but only few confess before men. Confessing before God is much easier than men, but scripture says that confessing before men is also an option.
:thumbsup: :goodpost:
DaneClark, I'm really glad you were able to go to confession and feel at peace. :grouppray:
peacemaker, I'm a little puzzled by your comment about kissing another man's hand ... I've never in my life done that either. :dontknow:
I'm not one that holds the literal "confessing" all that tightly. I don't think that when Scripture states "confess your sins one to another" that it means I'm to go to my priest or pastor and confess sins that have nothing to do with them. We have the ability to go boldly to the throne when the Spirit brings conviction within us . . .however . . what I do believe it's implying is, if I have ought against a brother, it's that brother that I'm to go and confess to . .that's the "one to another" part of it.
It does the brother who's been offended by me no good if I go to my priest and admit I've offended my brother. The healing can come when I go to my brother and allow him to forgive me and me to forgive him.
As far as confessing to the father . . ."the that believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth . . ." I don't think the confessing is what brings the transformation. I think the confessing is the evidence that a transformation is already taking place. I "believe" inwardly and as I do, it manifests "outwardly". It creates the atmosphere for the completion in the natural of what God has already completed in the spiritual.
Good post, Nathan, I agree. Confessing to another person may bring some comfort or relief (as in, talking about our problems, admitting and facing what we've done, etc.) and help us on our way. But I believe forgiveness comes when we confess to Jesus, Who is our Mediator between us and the Father.
I may be wrong, I'm not nor have ever been Catholic. But I personally believe mortal sin is a man-made term that can't be found in the scriptures. :2c:
There's evidence the ruling religion used such things to control the masses, including stealing their money and enforcing the "church's" power. The answers are in The Book as revealed by the Spirit, which is one reason that for years, the masses were discouraged from reading and knowing the scriptures - often only encouraged to follow what was handed down to them from the fraud who was attempting to stand in the place of Jesus (Jesus is our direct Mediator, while as David said, we approach the throne of grace boldly - based on the death and life of Jesus).
Jesus said to take His yoke upon you and learn of HIM - that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. :bigGrin: There's only 1 Father. Thank You Father.
I certainly don't believe you "must" confess to another person in order to be forgiven.
But there also is nothing "wrong" with doing so, and I can tell you there are many blessings associated with it.
When you are preparing to make a good confession, it is humbling (in a good way). It causes you to spend time reflecting and searching yourself, and without fail brings forth true feelings of sorrow for having sinned against God. I know of no other moment that I literally feel washed clean and white as snow, as I do immediately after a confession.
We all say it's good to confess sins, but I know that for myself I tend to notice the "big" or "obvious" moments, and often miss the repeated attitudes or more subtle moments of sinfulness. Those come to light when preparing for confession.
Again, I don't condemn anyone who does not confess their sins to each other; but I hope you all don't condemn people who choose to.
Hi LS. I can't condemn anyone, I can only share what I believe the scriptures teach. We each face God individually.
If anyone "believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus"/calls on the name of the Lord to be saved, they are my brother or sister.
Quote from: LS on July 25, 2010, 03:39:24 AM
peacemaker, I'm a little puzzled by your comment about kissing another man's hand ... I've never in my life done that either. :dontknow:
No condemnation meant, but I could never say "Your Holiness" or "Most Holy Father" to another man, nor would
I bow down on one knee and kiss his ring, then again, I'm also not Catholic. Hope that cleared up the confusion.
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on July 25, 2010, 03:07:08 AM
"Confess, one to another; and forgive, one another."
Quote from: Nathan on July 25, 2010, 03:58:25 AM
I'm not one that holds the literal "confessing" all that tightly. I don't think that when Scripture states "confess your sins one to another" that it means I'm to go to my priest or pastor and confess sins that have nothing to do with them. We have the ability to go boldly to the throne when the Spirit brings conviction within us . . .however . . what I do believe it's implying is, if I have ought against a brother, it's that brother that I'm to go and confess to . .that's the "one to another" part of it.
It does the brother who's been offended by me no good if I go to my priest and admit I've offended my brother. The healing can come when I go to my brother and allow him to forgive me and me to forgive him.
As far as confessing to the father . . ."the that believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth . . ." I don't think the confessing is what brings the transformation. I think the confessing is the evidence that a transformation is already taking place. I "believe" inwardly and as I do, it manifests "outwardly". It creates the atmosphere for the completion in the natural of what God has already completed in the spiritual.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: peacemaker on July 25, 2010, 04:41:18 AM
Quote from: LS on July 25, 2010, 03:39:24 AM
peacemaker, I'm a little puzzled by your comment about kissing another man's hand ... I've never in my life done that either. :dontknow:
No condemnation meant, but I could never say "Your Holiness" or "Most Holy Father" to another man, nor would
I bow down on one knee and kiss his ring, then again, I'm also not Catholic. Hope that cleared up the confusion.
peacemaker
Sort of; I just don't know if you are thinking those are common things for Catholics to say & do, but they are not; again, I've never done any of those things. The ideas some people have of the catholic church sometimes surprise me.
We kissed the Bishops ring when he came to visit our school.
:cloud9: My mother's mother became a Catholic, had the kids go, they talked of having to kiss some bishop's ring, too......perhaps it's gone out of "fashion" now? :dontknow:
Quote from: DaneClark on July 24, 2010, 09:02:26 PM
Could anyone help me find some evidence that the whole thing was made up by the catholic church?
Please consider this, and see if it helps shed some light on the subject;
Catholic Church announces 7 new deadly sins; Fincher, Freeman and Pitt gear up for sequel talks March 10, 2008 | Contributed by Nathan Harrison
In an announcement that feels like an Onion headline reject, the Catholic Church has revealed a list of seven additional "mortal sins" created to keep pace with the modern world's wickedness. The Vatican's semi-official newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, broke the story and the list, which includes (in layman's terms):
Polluting
Genetic engineering
Obscene riches
Taking & dealing drugs
Abortion
Pedophilia
Causing social injustice
-------------------------------------------------- End quote
What do the scriptures say? "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8
Obscene riches???
I've been to the Vatican Museum, our guide, more than once, spoke of the pieces as "priceless" and that the value of the collection is incalculable.
Quote from: jabcat on July 25, 2010, 04:37:31 AM
If anyone "believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus"/calls on the name of the Lord to be saved, they are my brother or sister.
Thank you - that is exactly my belief as well.
Catholic religion....Am I the the only one who sees the so what? I am given the understanding that catholic means universal, well we know that aint so. Or is it? When did the catholic "religion" get the handle on just what the Lord had to say in the Book? Just who gave these folk the reins? I for myself find the catholic religion a very confining an abtrusive religion.
Who gave the catholic's all this power in the first place? I may be and perhaps I am, cause I did not go into any studies, so just who and how did the catholic religion become the next power below the the President of the United States? Just who is the catholic church? Im a little bit set back. FYI? I may be bold, but I know no of no other way to get into it.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: jabcat on July 25, 2010, 06:20:01 AM
Please consider this, and see if it helps shed some light on the subject;
Catholic Church announces 7 new deadly sins; Fincher, Freeman and Pitt gear up for sequel talks March 10, 2008 | Contributed by Nathan Harrison
In an announcement that feels like an Onion headline reject, the Catholic Church has revealed a list of seven additional "mortal sins" created to keep pace with the modern world's wickedness. The Vatican's semi-official newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, broke the story and the list, which includes (in layman's terms):
Polluting
Genetic engineering
Obscene riches
Taking & dealing drugs
Abortion
Pedophilia
Causing social injustice
What do the scriptures say? "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8
Does that really surprise you? What is a common question on boards such as this - "What does this passage mean by a sin that is deadly ... what is that?" or "What is the unforgivable sin?"
How would a church define those or answer the questions without offering examples or guidelines?
I don't know ...
It seems to be a bit more than just someone offering a guide line though . . . it seems more like an organization assuming the role of the worlds spiritual authority on matters when all they seem to be doing is building their own tower of Babel all over again.
Jesus didn't say he would build his church upon doctrine or rules or tradition. But that he would build his church upon the experience of individual revelation from the Father about the nature of the Son. The Catholic church seems to emphasize it was Peter he was talking about so they deemed Peter as the first pope. Which for me, was off target right from the beginning.
I don't pray to dead saints . . .I don't bury a statue of Joseph in my front lawn when I want to sell my house . . . there is a reason why I'm not Catholic. But it's not just Catholics. Any person who establishes boundaries in a belief system has missed the whole point of the "free indeed" Jesus spoke of. Our nature is to be as free as the wind. We are to be governed by the unpredictable presence of the Holy Spirit that dwells in us. Religion of any kind, Catholic or Protestant, has no room for that kind of freedom.
Quote from: LS on July 25, 2010, 06:53:30 AM
Quote from: jabcat on July 25, 2010, 06:20:01 AM
Please consider this, and see if it helps shed some light on the subject;
Catholic Church announces 7 new deadly sins; Fincher, Freeman and Pitt gear up for sequel talks March 10, 2008 | Contributed by Nathan Harrison
In an announcement that feels like an Onion headline reject, the Catholic Church has revealed a list of seven additional "mortal sins" created to keep pace with the modern world's wickedness. The Vatican's semi-official newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, broke the story and the list, which includes (in layman's terms):
Polluting
Genetic engineering
Obscene riches
Taking & dealing drugs
Abortion
Pedophilia
Causing social injustice
What do the scriptures say? "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8
Does that really surprise you? What is a common question on boards such as this - "What does this passage mean by a sin that is deadly ... what is that?" or "What is the unforgivable sin?"
How would a church define those or answer the questions without offering examples or guidelines?
I don't know ...
I didn't say I was surprised. Perhaps a little disgusted. I'll quote what Gary Amirault stated some time back - "I don't like to see the sheep getting abused".
Polluting, now defined by the "Catholic Church" as a deadly/mortal sin - as of 2 years ago, 2008 - can now doom me to eternal hell... I understand that's what a mortal sin supposedly is. IMO, it's part of the angst given by way of example in the opening question to this thread. So according to that opening question, this is something one should put their trust in, be in turmoil about, wonder if one might not be able to get forgiveness for? I see that as a problem.
I don't see this as benign, as being similar to a discussion or an otherwise seeking of the truth. I believe it's an edict, a "church" law, meant to be accepted as direct from God - and lived by or literally go to hell.
I'd suggest a related pertinent question is, "who's the church"? Peace.
Quote from: jabcat on July 25, 2010, 07:06:43 AM
Maybe a pertinent question is, "who's the church"?
Does anyone think the answer to that is anything other than the body of believers? I sure don't.
But "churches" isn't a wrong thing either. From the beginning believers gathered to worship - Paul wrote his letters to the church of Corinth, the congregation at Colossae, etc. The NT also describes how some of the organizing came about, assigning people to take care of different needs in the community (Acts 6) and later giving guidelines for those who would be deacons, etc.
I don't judge people who belong to different denominations, nor those who don't attend any organized church. I am in the best place
for me at this time and trust the Holy Spirit has placed each of you where you are as well.
I honestly never intend to argue; I'm sorry if I have been argumentative. I only meant to answer the original poster's question as best I could.
Your spirit's good brother, sorry for my intensity and being an offense, but I admit, my blood boils a little when it comes to huge institutions ruling over people unjustly - and especially in the name of God.
Now, personally, I don't condemn you. I couldn't if I wanted to. We each stand before God individually. Where God has you right now is between you and Him. He'll lead you where He wants you to go. I just know that He spoke clearly to me to come out of the institution of religion. If He hasn't done that yet to you, again, that's between you and God. He has a plan and directs your steps. I'm so far from being perfected/matured myself it's not even funny. Well, actually it is sometimes - as in pitiful.
As you wish to answer the opening question, that's also what I'm attempting. :high5:. I'd hate for our brother Dane to live in condemnation when it's totally uncalled for, based on man-made fabrication. :2c:
Jewish Laws...
Catholic Laws...
State Laws...
In California; you couldn't wear blue jeans (Levi's) after 5:00 p.m.?
In Oregon; when you were released from prison, they are/were to give you a horse and a six-shooter?
In Arizona; you cannot be seen naked in your own house by a family member (you would be labeled a sex offender)?
Probably, an embarrassment at worst?
Don't interpret this in the wrong light, some laws are necessary. However, many are absurdity at best.
"Throw out the wine, no dancing with your wife; and get a hair cut."
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on July 25, 2010, 07:58:26 AM
Probably, an embarrassment at worst?
:mblush: :laugh2:
Quote from: jabcat on July 25, 2010, 07:42:54 AM
I'd hate for our brother Dane to live in condemnation when it's totally uncalled for, based on man-made fabrication. :2c:
P.S. Brother LS, I believe some are bothered much more than others over some of the "ancillary" stuff, while others may either not have the emotional/mental disposition to obsess over them, or be matured to the point of being able to sift through it, take what's useful, and toss out what's not. I'm no judge, but your footing may be quite sound, while another may spend sleepless nights and end up in despair over matters such as those being discussed. :2c:
Paraphrasing our Savior, "My peace I give to you, not as the world gives - and the world can't take it away".
Blessings, James.
Clarifying - the individuals within those organizations are my dear brothers and sisters. The organizations/institutions themselves, not quite so fond of.
But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative--that is, the Holy Spirit--he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you. John 14:26
:bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on July 25, 2010, 06:20:01 AM
Quote from: DaneClark on July 24, 2010, 09:02:26 PM
Could anyone help me find some evidence that the whole thing was made up by the catholic church?
Please consider this, and see if it helps shed some light on the subject;
Catholic Church announces 7 new deadly sins; Fincher, Freeman and Pitt gear up for sequel talks March 10, 2008 | Contributed by Nathan Harrison
In an announcement that feels like an Onion headline reject, the Catholic Church has revealed a list of seven additional "mortal sins" created to keep pace with the modern world's wickedness. The Vatican's semi-official newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, broke the story and the list, which includes (in layman's terms):
Polluting
Genetic engineering
Obscene riches
Taking & dealing drugs
Abortion
Pedophilia
Causing social injustice
-------------------------------------------------- End quote
What do the scriptures say? "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8
Jesus is the same but also not, all things become new in Christ Jesus. but sins in the eyes of man have changed over the years, like these above. Some people might think that causing pollution is not a sin, and genetic engineering. Although obscene riches, that is an old sin I don't know why they add that, and in any case having obscene riches is not a sin, for God is the richest person in the universe, he holds all the gold, silver and cattle, also his servant Solomon was one of the richest man alive. It is only a sin when one hordes, dishonest and thieves, like Zacharias did during Jesus time.
The problem I think with listing sins like this is when it become to much like the laws during the time of Pharisses, who use it to condemn others but do nothing to help out.
Quote from: jabcat on July 25, 2010, 04:09:01 PM
Clarifying - the individuals within those organizations are my dear brothers and sisters.
Also in the interest of clarifying - I would be your sister in Christ. :cloud9:
Yes, Mortal and Venial Sin were created by the Church. I remember when I first learned about mortal and venial sin, and I was like what. The church makes everything out to be a mortal sin, gossip, sexual thoughts, lying, pretty much everything someone would do. I was actually pretty angry about that teaching, considering most of the things classified as mortal sins were in no way deserving of Eternal Torture. But they explained that the ignorant got a free pass, but we no longer had one, cause the priest told us and now were responsible for our actions. Go figure. Now I do not endorse any of those things. After some research I've done, I found that Augustine was pretty strict when it came to sin. He had a belief that everything was a sin. But I had always been perturbed by his theology. But I realized how silly this stuff was when I was in tenth grade, and knew nothing about the bible.
Yes, lets scare people into recycling with threats of eternal fire. Makes perfect sense to me. :mshock:
Quote from: Nathan on July 25, 2010, 07:03:19 AM
It seems to be a bit more than just someone offering a guide line though . . . it seems more like an organization assuming the role of the worlds spiritual authority on matters when all they seem to be doing is building their own tower of Babel all over again.
Jesus didn't say he would build his church upon doctrine or rules or tradition. But that he would build his church upon the experience of individual revelation from the Father about the nature of the Son. The Catholic church seems to emphasize it was Peter he was talking about so they deemed Peter as the first pope. Which for me, was off target right from the beginning.
I don't pray to dead saints . . .I don't bury a statue of Joseph in my front lawn when I want to sell my house . . . there is a reason why I'm not Catholic. But it's not just Catholics. Any person who establishes boundaries in a belief system has missed the whole point of the "free indeed" Jesus spoke of. Our nature is to be as free as the wind. We are to be governed by the unpredictable presence of the Holy Spirit that dwells in us. Religion of any kind, Catholic or Protestant, has no room for that kind of freedom.
Peter was never even in Rome.
Not sure I'm following you . . .are you saying "Because" Peter was never in Rome he could not be considered a Pope? Or are you saying because Peter was never in Rome the Catholics couldn't be saying he's the first pope?
Quote from: Nathan on August 05, 2010, 07:59:43 PM
Not sure I'm following you . . .are you saying "Because" Peter was never in Rome he could not be considered a Pope? Or are you saying because Peter was never in Rome the Catholics couldn't be saying he's the first pope?
That he was never a pope in the first place. So that would mean that their popes were not something instituted by Jesus, and have no more authority than Martin Luther.