Big Blocker for Me

[WhiteWings]

I read it like this:
He made a one time sacrifice.
That single one time sacifice takes away all sins. Past, present and future

[Molly]

Hi Coldwar,

Heb 10:12  ButG1161 this man,G846 after he had offeredG4374 oneG3391 sacrificeG2378 forG5228 sinsG266 for ever,G1519 G1336 sat downG2523 onG1722 the right handG1188 of God;G2316

One sacrifice for sins into perpetuity--two Greek words: eis diēnekes--forever, perpetually.


"forever"

G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.


G1336
διηνεκές
diēnekes
dee-ah-nek-es'
Neuter of a compound of G1223 and a derivative of an alternate of G5342; carried through, that is, (adverb with G1519 and G3588 prefixed) perpetually: - +continually, for ever.



The one sacrifice for sins is forever.  It sounds too good to be true, doesn't it?

Behold the Lamb who taketh away the sins of the world!

Is there any sin his sacrifice doesn't cover?  No
Is there any other way to cover sin? No
Has God reconciled the world to himself through this one sacrifice? Yes

It took me so long to see this.
But, if it's big enough to be God, it's big enough to believe.  Believe it, Coldwar! :Sparkletooth:


18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
--Rom 5

[Molly]

I read it like this:
He made a one time sacrifice.
That single one time sacifice takes away all sins. Past, present and future

yeah.  What he said. [much more succinctly]. :laughing7:

[Molly]

23The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

--Heb 7

[coldwar]

Hi Coldwar,

Heb 10:12  ButG1161 this man,G846 after he had offeredG4374 oneG3391 sacrificeG2378 forG5228 sinsG266 for ever,G1519 G1336 sat downG2523 onG1722 the right handG1188 of God;G2316

One sacrifice for sins into perpetuity--two Greek words: eis diēnekes--forever, perpetually.

Interesting - some versions put the comma after "sins" and some, including the KJV, put it after "forever". The position of that comma completely changes the meaning of the sentence.

By the way - I think that you are all wonderful!!
:HeartThrob: CW

[Chris]

For many months I have been pondering this whole UR -vs- ET thing. I will say from the outset I WANT to believe in UR, as this is the will of God "not willing that any should perish". I want to agree with God. I've been through many exercises of examining the scriptures, and I certainly "get" the whole "ages of the ages" thing, and have learned many other wonderful things, such as the real source of the Dives and Lazarus parable, and the way so many Christians mis-quote passages such as the "narrow gate" and "few that find it", especially where in the same context Jesus says "they will come from all corners of earth into the Kingdom, but the first shall be last and the last shall be first", so not few, but many will be saved, in fact in Rev. 7:9 "a great multitude that no man could number".

But I still have one big blocker. In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God.

I'm wondering what you all have to say about this?

This was the first post on this thread.  and for me, the blocker issue . . .to see it "after" all things restored is to see it in some sequential order of how things unfold on the earth.  But the name of the book is not "How the earth ends"  Last Days of Man . . ."  So . .what "is" it saying?  To me it's saying those who are dirty, leave them dirty.  They're dirty on the outside because it's a reflection of who they are on the inside . . .and you can't change their inside . . that's the work of the spirit.  This verse is immediately following the instruction God just gave John to NOT seal the book . . .

Let me tie together what may sound contradicting.  It's dimensional like everything else.  It did unfold naturally, but not 2000 years later . . .He was telling John that it's already started and those that are unrighteous will remain that way as that's the condition of their heart.  If he tells me they're going to remain what they are inside, then I would think that means he's not interested in my trying to fix people.  We didn't create the field, we just plant in it.  If it's sandy soil when I plant, it'll still be sandy soil when there's a harvest.

This book was still addressing the removal of the Old Covenant system . . .it wasn't going to be pretty.  But it was necessary.  And for us now?  Our purpose is not to try to expect it to unfold naturallyl again in a literal time table, we're merely to apply it to our inward nature . . .can "you" circumcise yourself?  The unrighteousness in you will remain unrighteous.  His nature in you is what causes it to be cut away from your inward nature.  We're not the ones separating the sheep nature (godly) and goat nature (ungodly ) within us.  As we grow and mature in our relationship with the Father, his angels (message) is what does the separating in us.

:goodpost:

Would just like to add that Jesus said "the reapers are the angels" and He sent His disciples "to reap". Even Paul speaks of being received "as an angel of God".  :gangel:

[Nathan]

and an angel is a messenger . . .and it's not the messenger that delivers people, but the messenger delivers the message . . .and it's THE MESSAGE that delivers the people.  I think that this UR spin is one of those messages that's delivering the people out of their bondage.  We are the angels delivering that message.  But it's the message that brings the actual deliverance to the world around us.

[legoman]

and an angel is a messenger . . .and it's not the messenger that delivers people, but the messenger delivers the message . . .and it's THE MESSAGE that delivers the people.  I think that this UR spin is one of those messages that's delivering the people out of their bondage.  We are the angels delivering that message.  But it's the message that brings the actual deliverance to the world around us.

Do you believe there are "other-worldy" angels/messengers - AKA traditional view, winged spiritual beings obedient to God.. or are angels just humans who have been given a message of God?

[Nathan]

If I said I don't believe in literal angels at all . . .it'd be doing what we were just trying to avoid doing and that's saying that "this" is the ONLY way to see this or that.  In seeing Scriptures in dimensions, the 1st being that which is visibly seen and understood . . .literally taken.  2nd dimension for me is that which is morally applied and 3rd is seeing the inward patterns of the outward signs.  It's seeing the 1st dimension as a signpost leading me to see the 3rd dimensional truth.

One another level . . . deminsionally speaking . . .1st dimension is a message to the world.  Believers and unbelievers alike.  2nd dimension is to the church, traditional, nontraditional . . .the whole body of Christ.  3rd dimension is me as one individual.

These dimensions are kinda like a tri-fold wallet.  They sort of fold in on themselves.  They can also go on and on. 

The tabernacle of Moses is the grand daddy.  Passing through the first veil is to come to God through initial salvation.  The altar of sacrifice and the laver represent salvation and baptisms.  Not just 1 in water, but all . . .water, spirit and fire.  It's just that each are applied to where I am at in my relationship with the Father . . .babes/adolesence embrace the water baptism.  teens and young adults (spiritually speaking here . . .)embrace the spirit baptism and those who come into the priesthood of their purpose are also the same that find themselves being baptised in fire . . .age approproiate, just like judgment, it's connected to the crime so to speak . . .one who sins little, is forgiven little.  One who sins much, is forgiven much.

So the outer court represents salvation and baptism.  The inner court represents ministry . . .all the priestly "duties" to keep the temple in operation focused on this area of the entire tabernacle.  It required passage through a second veil.  This is not to say duties were required in other areas as well, I'm just saying there is a great emphasis on their requirements in this place.  One of the greatest was to never let the fire go out.  One of the greatest honors is for God to give us this opportunity to take the fire from him and let it continue to manifest his light in us.

Lastly and also of greatest importance and reward is the third veil . .oh . . .by the way . . .in Revelation, Jesus illuminates the fact that the church is in the second dimension.  I used to always see that as a bad thing . . .because the 3rd dimension is where God resides . .but the problem with that is . . .once Jesus came and resurrected, there is no longer a third veil.  Initially that veil separated us from God.  But in removing that veil, he proclaimed the fact that God has now come to men.

[Chris]

and an angel is a messenger . . .and it's not the messenger that delivers people, but the messenger delivers the message . . .and it's THE MESSAGE that delivers the people.  I think that this UR spin is one of those messages that's delivering the people out of their bondage.  We are the angels delivering that message.  But it's the message that brings the actual deliverance to the world around us.

I wasn't trying to correct you, just adding to what you said...   :happygrin:


Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1Pe 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[/b].

Rom 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

:thumbsup:

[coldwar]

With all this, especially having learned the deeper meaning that Christs' Priesthood endures forever, and that the invitation to "come in" also endures forever after even to those who choose to remain "filthy still", I would be at best the most conservative of Universalists, that the hope of Universal Reconciliation does not end at the passing from this life, but remains open to all in the ages to come, Praise God!

[Molly]

With all this, especially having learned the deeper meaning that Christs' Priesthood endures forever, and that the invitation to "come in" also endures forever after even to those who choose to remain "filthy still", I would be at best the most conservative of Universalists, that the hope of Universal Reconciliation does not end at the passing from this life, but remains open to all in the ages to come, Praise God!

Praise God!  He is the God of hope and his name is Wonderful!

Isaiah 9:6
... and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAW7kcEb6LE

[pickr]

Just some food for thought, coldwar.

One thing that is rarely talkedf about is that there is a ministry still ongoing in Rev. 22. Not everything HAS been restored yet.

The proof of that is given when John notes that, "The leaves of the tree of life are for the healing of the nations." Further, John notes that there is still a need for the water of life. So, it follows that there is still a need for healing and for newness of life. And for whom else could those things be needed other than the lost ones still remaing outside the city?

So, it seems apparent to me that the ministry of reconciliation won't end until its mission is accomplished. And you are.. and will yet be.. a part of that ministry, friend! It's a truly wondrous and mighty thing.

Peace and blessings to you,

Andy

P.S. When Jesus told His disciples that they would perform even greater miracles than He had done before there eyes, I think this may be just what He was referring to. I can't prove it, but what the heck. It sure makes a lot of sense to me.

[coldwar]

 :thumbsup: Yes, me too. Thanks Andy!

CW

[reFORMer]

Sorry, but I didn't keep the credits or locations of the following that was recently posted in tentmaker...
__________________________________

An excerpt from Aldai Loudy that compares Matthew 25 with Revelation 20:

THE GLORY THRONE Matthew 25          THE GREAT WHITE THRONE Revelation 20
1. At Revelation of Christ                       One thousand years later
2. On the earth (Joel 3:2)                     Heaven and earth gone
3. Living nations judged                        The dead
4. No resurrection                                All resurrected
5. Three classes: "sheep,"                     One class: the dead
    "kids" and "brethren"                       
6. No books mentioned                         Books opened: book of life opened
_________________________________________________

Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given John in Revelation chapters 20, 21, 22 and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:

In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:

No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20-22, we have:

Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2)
-end quote

Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20-22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)

[thinktank]

Interesting, Ive allways wondered whether they are describing the same event, this post might bring greater clarity. Thanks for posting  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Yes, great post reF  :thumbsup:  It's a keeper.  Very good clarification.  This could also fit real well in the Book of Life thread.

[Mr.Irrelevant]

For many months I have been pondering this whole UR -vs- ET thing. I will say from the outset I WANT to believe in UR, as this is the will of God "not willing that any should perish". I want to agree with God. I've been through many exercises of examining the scriptures, and I certainly "get" the whole "ages of the ages" thing, and have learned many other wonderful things, such as the real source of the Dives and Lazarus parable, and the way so many Christians mis-quote passages such as the "narrow gate" and "few that find it", especially where in the same context Jesus says "they will come from all corners of earth into the Kingdom, but the first shall be last and the last shall be first", so not few, but many will be saved, in fact in Rev. 7:9 "a great multitude that no man could number".

But I still have one big blocker. In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God.

I'm wondering what you all have to say about this?

Hi Coldwar,
This thread has gone all over the place - but let me ad  my 2 cents to your original question.  I think the answer is very straightforward, but bear in mind that I do believe that most of the book of Revelation is still future, and it was certainly still future at the time that John was having his vision.

So I see Chapters 19-22:5 as a vision given to John of future (to him) events, but at vs. 6 the book returns to John's present.  Thus "Let the one who does wrong still do wrong" is referring to John's present and continuing until the time of the vision arrives.  Whether that's in AD70, or the present, or still future for us is an argument for anther thread.

[waitinontheLamb]

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There is always hope as promised, this does not mean we cannot make our lives full of misery by what we choose to do.

I found that very helpful Paul- thank you!

Don't want to open a can of worms but could you inform me of the word that we cannot use so that I don't use it? Thanks

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:  I think I know what you're referring to.  We don't say you absolutely can never use "the word", but we do discourage ongoing discussions of the 'free will/all sovereign' debate.  I believe that's what Paul was referring to.

It's just caused too many problems.  There are a few posts about it in the Rules and FAQ section.  No need to walk on eggshells.  We'll make a mention or two, a request to redirect, etc.,  if we believe things are headed toward the mine field.   :thumbsup: