For many months I have been pondering this whole UR -vs- ET thing. I will say from the outset I WANT to believe in UR, as this is the will of God "not willing that any should perish". I want to agree with God. I've been through many exercises of examining the scriptures, and I certainly "get" the whole "ages of the ages" thing, and have learned many other wonderful things, such as the real source of the Dives and Lazarus parable, and the way so many Christians mis-quote passages such as the "narrow gate" and "few that find it", especially where in the same context Jesus says "they will come from all corners of earth into the Kingdom, but the first shall be last and the last shall be first", so not few, but many will be saved, in fact in Rev. 7:9 "a great multitude that no man could number".
But I still have one big blocker. In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God.
I'm wondering what you all have to say about this?
one possible short answer -- Revelation is not the end of the story just because it's at the end of the Bible. I Corinthians 15:22-28 is the last event we're informed about -- that is, God becoming All in All
Galan
The book of Revelation is now, it is happening now in the heavenlies, if you have ears to hear.
Cannot use the banned word to make my point, so I will have to get creative.
We all learn different and it is that uniqueness and freedom that God gave us that allows us to take paths that our will desires. However the punch line of that passage is contained in this verse.
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
There is always hope as promised, this does not mean we cannot make our lives full of misery by what we choose to do.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 28, 2011, 07:26:58 AM
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
There is always hope as promised, this does not mean we cannot make our lives full of misery by what we choose to do.
I found that very helpful Paul- thank you!
Quote from: coldwar on January 27, 2011, 08:51:18 PM
For many months I have been pondering this whole UR -vs- ET thing.
Hi coldwar ... since you are searching, I'd like to share with you my belief in eternal destruction. That is, I believe that not all are saved, and those who are not will be destroyed.
I also wanted to believe in US but as I have read and studied on my own and discussed it on this site, I've become more and more convicted that eternal destruction is what the Bible teaches. If you are interested, you can read this thread (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/eternal_destruction_8531.0.html) and [/url=http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/psalm_9_8358.0.html]this thread[/url] - these contain very thoughtful replies from people here at Tentmaker who do believe US, so I think you'll get a pretty balanced look at both views.
I encourage you to keep searching and keep praying. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 28, 2011, 07:20:25 AM
The book of Revelation is now, it is happening now in the heavenlies, if you have ears to hear.
I am starting to come to that conclusion myself.
LS, I thought about something again yesterday, and this is a good place to ask. Do you (or anyone) believe God would "set Israel aside", millions of people, for the past 2,000 years, as He said He has - with almost all of them being veiled, totally unable to see Him or believe ("to this day when they read the Law and the prophets there remains a veil over their eyes") - by His own plan and decree ("until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved" - [by His mercy to the Gentiles] "they may be provoked to jealousy") - and then just completely annihilate them (or for ET'ers, eternally torture them)? That that would be His plan? Totally blind millions of people, throughout the past 200 decades, not by their choice or knowledge, but by His; then just do away with them, with no further plan after death/in the next age to deal with them and redeem them?
If so, this is akin to Calvinism; that most of humanity would be created completely just to be cast aside, annihilated or eternally tormented ("the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but by Him Who subjected it" ) with no further dealings by God of redemption in the ages to come. IMO, that's something to seriously consider...
Quote from: jabcat on January 28, 2011, 07:53:39 PM
LS, I thought about something again yesterday, and this is a good place to ask. Do you (or anyone) believe God would "set Israel aside", millions of people, for the past 2,000 years, as He said He has - with almost all of them being veiled, totally unable to see Him or believe ("to this day when they read the Law and the prophets there remains a veil over their eyes") - by His own plan and decree ("until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved" - [by His mercy to the Gentiles] "they may be provoked to jealousy") - and then just completely annihilate them (or for ET'ers, eternally torture them)? That that would be His plan? Totally blind millions of people, throughout the past 200 decades, not by their choice or knowledge, but by His; then just do away with them, with no further plan after death/in the next age to deal with them and redeem them? IMO, that's something to seriously consider...
Remember, I believe "most" will be saved and that non-believers will be judged based on their works - I have quoted the passage from Romans elsewhere that I believe supports this but I don't have time/resources to look it up for you right now (it's the one about the law being written on hearts). I also think the sheep & goat judgement of Matthew is not believers, but unbelievers.
Also, I would point out that there are messianic Jews today - is that veiling still in place? Does it mean that no Jews "can" come to believe
now? Obviously that isn't the case, so the veiling is not entirely binding. I don't have a real solid belief on what this passage means to be honest - that veiling was "to this day" (at the time of writing) but has it ended? Is it still in effect? I don't know; I've never seen a good commentary on that passage. It's used heavily by people who believe in a "rapture" but I'm definitely not one of those, so ... :dontknow:
But no - I don't believe unbelieving Jews will simply be annihilated just as I don't think that
any unbelievers will simply be annihilated; all will be judged and most will be saved.
As I understand, there are None saved based on works. IMO, that's completely unscriptural. There will be a judgment based on works, but it's not about salvation. Salvation is clearly described; no one is saved unless they come through Jesus. There's no other way to the Father.
Paul was a "Messianic Jew", and He's the one who said the veiling is in place, and that it will be until "the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled".
QuoteI believe Romans 2:15 tells us that SOME who never heard of Jesus or who were not believers, will be saved because "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
Just wanted to add the Romans passage - I'm quoting it from another thread, here.
I'd ask you to re-read the Matthew judgement - it is entirely based on works (you gave me water ... you did not give me ... ) I get it that you think it is not for salvation, but in my opinion it is saying that even if they didn't realize it at the time, they WERE serving Jesus and therefore have salvation through Him.
It seems odd to me that you can say everyone is saved, but no one is saved unless they come through Jesus. I do know you think that happens in the next life, but I don't.
Quote from: jabcat on January 28, 2011, 08:14:51 PM
Paul was a "Messianic Jew", and He's the one who said the veiling is in place, and that it will be until "the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled".
And when is that?
Perhaps it was fulfilled long ago ... perhaps it's yet to be; I don't know. Like I said, I've never seen anyone explain it in a way that struck my spirit as Truth.
(Edited to add: This is an interesting discussion and I'm sorry to post & run, but I'm traveling this weekend and won't be online. I'll try to check back early next week, but I suspect it will have taken off in other directions by then!)
God bless you bro. :cloud9:
Ephesians 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I believe we err when we try to mix many of the things Jesus said to the Jews, pre-cross, pre-70 AD judgment of the Jews, desctruction of temple worship, the end of their religious system, and the coming of the age of grace.
Jesus wouldn't say in one place that works saves (which He didn't) then Paul clearly say in another that it's not works that saves (which he did). It all reconciles when accurately translated and rightly divided. There are different administrations/different things happening at different times. Jesus said He came "only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel". I believe we're currently in the age of grace, the time of the Gentiles. There's more to come.
"Odd"? ..that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.. Eph. 2:7
Quote from: LS on January 28, 2011, 08:17:45 PM
QuoteI believe Romans 2:15 tells us that SOME who never heard of Jesus or who were not believers, will be saved because "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
Just wanted to add the Romans passage - I'm quoting it from another thread, here.
I'd ask you to re-read the Matthew judgement - it is entirely based on works (you gave me water ... you did not give me ... ) I get it that you think it is not for salvation, but in my opinion it is saying that even if they didn't realize it at the time, they WERE serving Jesus and therefore have salvation through Him.
It seems odd to me that you can say everyone is saved, but no one is saved unless they come through Jesus. I do know you think that happens in the next life, but I don't.
Just a clarification from what you believe. Considering that you do not believe all will be saved, this inquiry is concerning the ones you do believe will be saved
If I am reading what you wrote correctly you wil believe that no one comes through Jesus in the next life. Are you saying that everyone who does get saved, gets that way only through Jesus in this life?
Or are you saying that someone who does get saved based on the following didn't need Jesus to be saved in the first place?
QuoteThey show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 28, 2011, 07:20:25 AM
The book of Revelation is now, it is happening now in the heavenlies, if you have ears to hear.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on January 28, 2011, 07:53:39 PM
Do you (or anyone) believe God would "set Israel aside", millions of people, for the past 2,000 years, as He said He has - with almost all of them being veiled, totally unable to see Him or believe ("to this day when they read the Law and the prophets there remains a veil over their eyes") - by His own plan and decree ("until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved"
Hi again Jabcat - I apologize again for being so pressed on time. I'm literally on my way out the door but wanted to double-check something you wrote, and I guess I'm still not sure if you understand ...
"Jews" are only from the tribe of Judah, just as Levites are only from the tribe of Levi, etc.
So to say something about "the jews" is not to say that about "all of Israel."
You'll see this time & again in the books of Kings ... do a search of the phrase "are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah?" and "are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel?" Those are written time & time again.
Sorry this is convoluted, but I want to look at the passage you referenced about "hardening" and how it relates to "the jews" and/or to Israel. Jesus brought a new covenant to Israel, it's in place and the old is no more. (Heb chapter 8, I believe)
Have a great weekend and say a lil' pray for me - I really don't like flying but I'm accompanying my mom to visit her brother whose health is failing :HeartThrob:
I personally don't believe God is through with "natural Israel", and I believe that's obviously who Paul was talking about - us being grafted in, we're not to speak against the tree, etc. I don't claim to know exactly who all that is, scattered abroad, but I'm confident God knows. :bigGrin:
Be safe, comfort and God's will to your family.
I don't see the Jews being tied only to Judah . . .All of Israel makes up a Jewish nation. "We" are Jews spiritually in that we've been circumcised, circumcision comes through our relationship with the Father through the son . .the cutting away of the power of areas of flesh in us. We "were" spiritual Gentiles, uncricumcised . . .again, it has nothing to do with our final destination. That's a separate issue. The circumcision is what happens inwardly and my WORKS manifest that change outwardly. I don't believe we are judged by our works, I believe we're rewarded due to our works, but the works are only what they are, good or bad, due to the condition of where our heart is at. Purity within, manifests purity without. And vise versa.
As to the original question about those who are this or that, let them be this or that . . .it's not a sequential time table . . .so many people have attempted to do that with the book and that's not what it's about. We "say" it's a revelation of JESUS CHRIST but then we turn the book all around and make it all about us. . . .the destruction of men, the earth, hell is thrown in, false prophet . . .by the time we're dune dividing it up, we completely lose the actual truth that the book was named after in the first place. It's a Revelation of the nature of Jesus, of the purpose of Jesus, of the will of Jesus . . .it's all about Jesus . . .either that or the title itself is a lie.
Keep in mind to those to whom it's written to . . .those who have ears (equipped to hear truth) and can hear (enabled to identify the sound of truth) same as those with eyes (spirtual vision equpped) and can see (spiritual vision enabled)
Many are equipped . .but few are enabled. We have the car but don't have the keys to start it. In "this" vehicle, you have to put your foot on your head (brakes) before you can put things in gear. This thing runs by spiritual power, not by natural might or strengths.
Quote from: coldwar on January 27, 2011, 08:51:18 PM
For many months I have been pondering this whole UR -vs- ET thing. I will say from the outset I WANT to believe in UR, as this is the will of God "not willing that any should perish". I want to agree with God. I've been through many exercises of examining the scriptures, and I certainly "get" the whole "ages of the ages" thing, and have learned many other wonderful things, such as the real source of the Dives and Lazarus parable, and the way so many Christians mis-quote passages such as the "narrow gate" and "few that find it", especially where in the same context Jesus says "they will come from all corners of earth into the Kingdom, but the first shall be last and the last shall be first", so not few, but many will be saved, in fact in Rev. 7:9 "a great multitude that no man could number".
But I still have one big blocker. In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God.
I'm wondering what you all have to say about this?
This was the first post on this thread. and for me, the blocker issue . . .to see it "after" all things restored is to see it in some sequential order of how things unfold on the earth. But the name of the book is not "How the earth ends" Last Days of Man . . ." So . .what "is" it saying? To me it's saying those who are dirty, leave them dirty. They're dirty on the outside because it's a reflection of who they are on the inside . . .and you can't change their inside . . that's the work of the spirit. This verse is immediately following the instruction God just gave John to NOT seal the book . . .
Let me tie together what may sound contradicting. It's dimensional like everything else. It did unfold naturally, but not 2000 years later . . .He was telling John that it's already started and those that are unrighteous will remain that way as that's the condition of their heart. If he tells me they're going to remain what they are inside, then I would think that means he's not interested in my trying to fix people. We didn't create the field, we just plant in it. If it's sandy soil when I plant, it'll still be sandy soil when there's a harvest.
This book was still addressing the removal of the Old Covenant system . . .it wasn't going to be pretty. But it was necessary. And for us now? Our purpose is not to try to expect it to unfold naturallyl again in a literal time table, we're merely to apply it to our inward nature . . .can "you" circumcise yourself? The unrighteousness in you will remain unrighteous. His nature in you is what causes it to be cut away from your inward nature. We're not the ones separating the sheep nature (godly) and goat nature (ungodly ) within us. As we grow and mature in our relationship with the Father, his angels (message) is what does the separating in us.
Nathan - my problem comes from not even being able to imagine a reply like yours. Not being sarcastic at all, it's just that, like most people, I do not think like that. What I see in this passage is mere association, made by comparison - death and hell being destroyed, and God making all things new - the two main events of apokatastasis, and yet, there are still people who remain outside of it all who refuse to be restored. This kind of suggests to me the more conventional theology that "people ultimately choose hell" - God wins people to heaven, He never forces against their wills. But I like Paul's idea above that in spite of everything being restored, the restoration remains ongoing, as every voice is crying out "come" to these people who remain stubbornly unrepentant.
Coldwar,
Who is wicked? me
Who is filthy? me
Who is righteous? Christ
Who is holy? Christ
The way I read that passage: the wicked are still wicked and the filthy are still filthy and the Righteous One is still justifying and the Holy One is still sanctifying.
We are looking at a process, aren't we? Each in his own order. But, in Rev 22 the process has begun and is ongoing. The gates of the city are never ever closed. The sacrifice of the Lamb is eis diēnekes -- into perpetuity[Heb10:12]. The Spirit and the bride are calling out to all.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
that they may have "right"
G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22
So, each person must wash his robes in the blood of the Lamb and make them white.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
--Rev 7
The question is--will all eventually do this? Paul tells us in 1 Cor 15, YES.
How else could God be all in all?
Here's the Greek
ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
αδικων verb - present active participle - nominative singular masculine
adikeo ad-ee-keh'-o: to be unjust, i.e. (actively) do wrong (morally, socially or physically) -- hurt, injure, be an offender, be unjust, (do, suffer, take) wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
αδικησατω verb - aorist active middle - third person singular
adikeo ad-ee-keh'-o: to be unjust, i.e. (actively) do wrong (morally, socially or physically) -- hurt, injure, be an offender, be unjust, (do, suffer, take) wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ετι adverb
eti et'-ee: yet, still (of time or degree) -- after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-)henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more(-one), now, still, yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
και conjunction
kai kahee: and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ρυπαρος adjective - nominative singular masculine
rhuparos rhoo-par-os': dirty, i.e. (relatively) cheap or shabby; morally, wicked -- vile.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ρυπαρευθητω verb - aorist passive imperative - third person singular
rhupoo rhoo-po'-o: to soil, i.e. (intransitively) to become dirty (morally) -- be filthy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ετι adverb
eti et'-ee: yet, still (of time or degree) -- after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-)henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more(-one), now, still, yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
και conjunction
kai kahee: and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
δικαιος adjective - nominative singular masculine
dikaios dik'-ah-yos: equitable (in character or act); by implication, innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively) -- just, meet, right(-eous).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
δικαιοσυνην noun - accusative singular feminine
dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay: equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification -- righteousness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ποιησατω verb - aorist active middle - third person singular
poieo poy-eh'-o: to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ετι adverb
eti et'-ee: yet, still (of time or degree) -- after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-)henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more(-one), now, still, yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
και conjunction
kai kahee: and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
αγιος adjective - nominative singular masculine
hagios hag'-ee-os: sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated) -- (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
αγιασθητω verb - aorist passive imperative - third person singular
hagiazo hag-ee-ad'-zo: to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate -- hallow, be holy, sanctify.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ετι adverb
eti et'-ee: yet, still (of time or degree) -- after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-)henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more(-one), now, still, yet.
Molly-
I thank you for a thought-provoking answer - also for the tremendous effort you've put into interpreting the Greek for me (which I confess is "all Greek to me" for the moment :happy3:
It raises another question for me however:
Hebrews 10:12 "But *he*, having offered one sacrifice for sins, sat down in perpetuity at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from henceforth until his enemies be set for the footstool of his feet. 14 For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified".
Doesn't this say that he sat down at the right hand of God "in perpetuity", and that his ONE offering has perfected the sanctified "in perpetuity", not that his offering itself is "in perpetuity"? His offering was "once for all", not perpetual - so I see these other things as perpetual here, not his offering.
I read it like this:
He made a one time sacrifice.
That single one time sacifice takes away all sins. Past, present and future
Hi Coldwar,
Heb 10:12 ButG1161 this man,G846 after he had offeredG4374 oneG3391 sacrificeG2378 forG5228 sinsG266 for ever,G1519 G1336 sat downG2523 onG1722 the right handG1188 of God;G2316
One sacrifice for sins into perpetuity--two Greek words: eis diēnekes--forever, perpetually.
"forever"
G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.
G1336
διηνεκές
diēnekes
dee-ah-nek-es'
Neuter of a compound of G1223 and a derivative of an alternate of G5342; carried through, that is, (adverb with G1519 and G3588 prefixed) perpetually: - +continually, for ever.
The one sacrifice for sins is forever. It sounds too good to be true, doesn't it?
Behold the Lamb who taketh away the sins of the world!
Is there any sin his sacrifice doesn't cover? No
Is there any other way to cover sin? No
Has God reconciled the world to himself through this one sacrifice? Yes
It took me so long to see this.
But, if it's big enough to be God, it's big enough to believe. Believe it, Coldwar! :Sparkletooth:
18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
--Rom 5
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 30, 2011, 08:57:20 PM
I read it like this:
He made a one time sacrifice.
That single one time sacifice takes away all sins. Past, present and future
yeah. What he said. [much more succinctly]. :laughing7:
23The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
26For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
--Heb 7
Quote from: Molly on January 30, 2011, 09:18:57 PM
Hi Coldwar,
Heb 10:12 ButG1161 this man,G846 after he had offeredG4374 oneG3391 sacrificeG2378 forG5228 sinsG266 for ever,G1519 G1336 sat downG2523 onG1722 the right handG1188 of God;G2316
One sacrifice for sins into perpetuity--two Greek words: eis diēnekes--forever, perpetually.
Interesting - some versions put the comma after "sins" and some, including the KJV, put it after "forever". The position of that comma completely changes the meaning of the sentence.
By the way - I think that you are all wonderful!!
:HeartThrob: CW
Quote from: Nathan on January 30, 2011, 01:19:01 AM
Quote from: coldwar on January 27, 2011, 08:51:18 PM
For many months I have been pondering this whole UR -vs- ET thing. I will say from the outset I WANT to believe in UR, as this is the will of God "not willing that any should perish". I want to agree with God. I've been through many exercises of examining the scriptures, and I certainly "get" the whole "ages of the ages" thing, and have learned many other wonderful things, such as the real source of the Dives and Lazarus parable, and the way so many Christians mis-quote passages such as the "narrow gate" and "few that find it", especially where in the same context Jesus says "they will come from all corners of earth into the Kingdom, but the first shall be last and the last shall be first", so not few, but many will be saved, in fact in Rev. 7:9 "a great multitude that no man could number".
But I still have one big blocker. In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God.
I'm wondering what you all have to say about this?
This was the first post on this thread. and for me, the blocker issue . . .to see it "after" all things restored is to see it in some sequential order of how things unfold on the earth. But the name of the book is not "How the earth ends" Last Days of Man . . ." So . .what "is" it saying? To me it's saying those who are dirty, leave them dirty. They're dirty on the outside because it's a reflection of who they are on the inside . . .and you can't change their inside . . that's the work of the spirit. This verse is immediately following the instruction God just gave John to NOT seal the book . . .
Let me tie together what may sound contradicting. It's dimensional like everything else. It did unfold naturally, but not 2000 years later . . .He was telling John that it's already started and those that are unrighteous will remain that way as that's the condition of their heart. If he tells me they're going to remain what they are inside, then I would think that means he's not interested in my trying to fix people. We didn't create the field, we just plant in it. If it's sandy soil when I plant, it'll still be sandy soil when there's a harvest.
This book was still addressing the removal of the Old Covenant system . . .it wasn't going to be pretty. But it was necessary. And for us now? Our purpose is not to try to expect it to unfold naturallyl again in a literal time table, we're merely to apply it to our inward nature . . .can "you" circumcise yourself? The unrighteousness in you will remain unrighteous. His nature in you is what causes it to be cut away from your inward nature. We're not the ones separating the sheep nature (godly) and goat nature (ungodly ) within us. As we grow and mature in our relationship with the Father, his angels (message) is what does the separating in us.
:goodpost:
Would just like to add that Jesus said "the reapers are the angels" and He sent His disciples "to reap". Even Paul speaks of being received "as an angel of God". :gangel:
and an angel is a messenger . . .and it's not the messenger that delivers people, but the messenger delivers the message . . .and it's THE MESSAGE that delivers the people. I think that this UR spin is one of those messages that's delivering the people out of their bondage. We are the angels delivering that message. But it's the message that brings the actual deliverance to the world around us.
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2011, 05:59:01 PM
and an angel is a messenger . . .and it's not the messenger that delivers people, but the messenger delivers the message . . .and it's THE MESSAGE that delivers the people. I think that this UR spin is one of those messages that's delivering the people out of their bondage. We are the angels delivering that message. But it's the message that brings the actual deliverance to the world around us.
Do you believe there are "other-worldy" angels/messengers - AKA traditional view, winged spiritual beings obedient to God.. or are angels just humans who have been given a message of God?
If I said I don't believe in literal angels at all . . .it'd be doing what we were just trying to avoid doing and that's saying that "this" is the ONLY way to see this or that. In seeing Scriptures in dimensions, the 1st being that which is visibly seen and understood . . .literally taken. 2nd dimension for me is that which is morally applied and 3rd is seeing the inward patterns of the outward signs. It's seeing the 1st dimension as a signpost leading me to see the 3rd dimensional truth.
One another level . . . deminsionally speaking . . .1st dimension is a message to the world. Believers and unbelievers alike. 2nd dimension is to the church, traditional, nontraditional . . .the whole body of Christ. 3rd dimension is me as one individual.
These dimensions are kinda like a tri-fold wallet. They sort of fold in on themselves. They can also go on and on.
The tabernacle of Moses is the grand daddy. Passing through the first veil is to come to God through initial salvation. The altar of sacrifice and the laver represent salvation and baptisms. Not just 1 in water, but all . . .water, spirit and fire. It's just that each are applied to where I am at in my relationship with the Father . . .babes/adolesence embrace the water baptism. teens and young adults (spiritually speaking here . . .)embrace the spirit baptism and those who come into the priesthood of their purpose are also the same that find themselves being baptised in fire . . .age approproiate, just like judgment, it's connected to the crime so to speak . . .one who sins little, is forgiven little. One who sins much, is forgiven much.
So the outer court represents salvation and baptism. The inner court represents ministry . . .all the priestly "duties" to keep the temple in operation focused on this area of the entire tabernacle. It required passage through a second veil. This is not to say duties were required in other areas as well, I'm just saying there is a great emphasis on their requirements in this place. One of the greatest was to never let the fire go out. One of the greatest honors is for God to give us this opportunity to take the fire from him and let it continue to manifest his light in us.
Lastly and also of greatest importance and reward is the third veil . .oh . . .by the way . . .in Revelation, Jesus illuminates the fact that the church is in the second dimension. I used to always see that as a bad thing . . .because the 3rd dimension is where God resides . .but the problem with that is . . .once Jesus came and resurrected, there is no longer a third veil. Initially that veil separated us from God. But in removing that veil, he proclaimed the fact that God has now come to men.
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2011, 05:59:01 PM
and an angel is a messenger . . .and it's not the messenger that delivers people, but the messenger delivers the message . . .and it's THE MESSAGE that delivers the people. I think that this UR spin is one of those messages that's delivering the people out of their bondage. We are the angels delivering that message. But it's the message that brings the actual deliverance to the world around us.
I wasn't trying to correct you, just adding to what you said... :happygrin:
Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.1Pe 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[/b].
Rom 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
:thumbsup:
With all this, especially having learned the deeper meaning that Christs' Priesthood endures forever, and that the invitation to "come in" also endures forever after even to those who choose to remain "filthy still", I would be at best the most conservative of Universalists, that the hope of Universal Reconciliation does not end at the passing from this life, but remains open to all in the ages to come, Praise God!
Quote from: coldwar on February 03, 2011, 05:49:07 AM
With all this, especially having learned the deeper meaning that Christs' Priesthood endures forever, and that the invitation to "come in" also endures forever after even to those who choose to remain "filthy still", I would be at best the most conservative of Universalists, that the hope of Universal Reconciliation does not end at the passing from this life, but remains open to all in the ages to come, Praise God!
Praise God! He is the God of hope and his name is Wonderful!
Isaiah 9:6
... and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAW7kcEb6LE
Just some food for thought, coldwar.
One thing that is rarely talkedf about is that there is a ministry still ongoing in Rev. 22. Not everything HAS been restored yet.
The proof of that is given when John notes that, "The leaves of the tree of life are for the healing of the nations." Further, John notes that there is still a need for the water of life. So, it follows that there is still a need for healing and for newness of life. And for whom else could those things be needed other than the lost ones still remaing outside the city?
So, it seems apparent to me that the ministry of reconciliation won't end until its mission is accomplished. And you are.. and will yet be.. a part of that ministry, friend! It's a truly wondrous and mighty thing.
Peace and blessings to you,
Andy
P.S. When Jesus told His disciples that they would perform even greater miracles than He had done before there eyes, I think this may be just what He was referring to. I can't prove it, but what the heck. It sure makes a lot of sense to me.
:thumbsup: Yes, me too. Thanks Andy!
CW
Sorry, but I didn't keep the credits or locations of the following that was recently posted in tentmaker...
__________________________________
An excerpt from Aldai Loudy that compares Matthew 25 with Revelation 20:
THE GLORY THRONE Matthew 25 THE GREAT WHITE THRONE Revelation 20
1. At Revelation of Christ One thousand years later
2. On the earth (Joel 3:2) Heaven and earth gone
3. Living nations judged The dead
4. No resurrection All resurrected
5. Three classes: "sheep," One class: the dead
"kids" and "brethren"
6. No books mentioned Books opened: book of life opened
_________________________________________________
Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given John in Revelation chapters 20, 21, 22 and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:
In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20-22, we have:
Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2)
-end quote
Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20-22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)
Interesting, Ive allways wondered whether they are describing the same event, this post might bring greater clarity. Thanks for posting :thumbsup:
Yes, great post reF :thumbsup: It's a keeper. Very good clarification. This could also fit real well in the Book of Life thread.
Quote from: coldwar on January 27, 2011, 08:51:18 PM
For many months I have been pondering this whole UR -vs- ET thing. I will say from the outset I WANT to believe in UR, as this is the will of God "not willing that any should perish". I want to agree with God. I've been through many exercises of examining the scriptures, and I certainly "get" the whole "ages of the ages" thing, and have learned many other wonderful things, such as the real source of the Dives and Lazarus parable, and the way so many Christians mis-quote passages such as the "narrow gate" and "few that find it", especially where in the same context Jesus says "they will come from all corners of earth into the Kingdom, but the first shall be last and the last shall be first", so not few, but many will be saved, in fact in Rev. 7:9 "a great multitude that no man could number".
But I still have one big blocker. In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God.
I'm wondering what you all have to say about this?
Hi Coldwar,
This thread has gone all over the place - but let me ad my 2 cents to your original question. I think the answer is very straightforward, but bear in mind that I do believe that most of the book of Revelation is still future, and it was certainly still future at the time that John was having his vision.
So I see Chapters 19-22:5 as a vision given to John of future (to him) events, but at vs. 6 the book returns to John's present. Thus "Let the one who does wrong still do wrong" is referring to John's present and continuing until the time of the vision arrives. Whether that's in AD70, or the present, or still future for us is an argument for anther thread.
Quote from: coldwar on January 28, 2011, 06:54:57 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 28, 2011, 07:26:58 AM
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
There is always hope as promised, this does not mean we cannot make our lives full of misery by what we choose to do.
I found that very helpful Paul- thank you!
Don't want to open a can of worms but could you inform me of the word that we cannot use so that I don't use it? Thanks
:bigGrin: I think I know what you're referring to. We don't say you absolutely can never use "the word", but we do discourage ongoing discussions of the 'free will/all sovereign' debate. I believe that's what Paul was referring to.
It's just caused too many problems. There are a few posts about it in the Rules and FAQ section. No need to walk on eggshells. We'll make a mention or two, a request to redirect, etc., if we believe things are headed toward the mine field. :thumbsup: