Big Blocker for Me

[coldwar]

For many months I have been pondering this whole UR -vs- ET thing. I will say from the outset I WANT to believe in UR, as this is the will of God "not willing that any should perish". I want to agree with God. I've been through many exercises of examining the scriptures, and I certainly "get" the whole "ages of the ages" thing, and have learned many other wonderful things, such as the real source of the Dives and Lazarus parable, and the way so many Christians mis-quote passages such as the "narrow gate" and "few that find it", especially where in the same context Jesus says "they will come from all corners of earth into the Kingdom, but the first shall be last and the last shall be first", so not few, but many will be saved, in fact in Rev. 7:9 "a great multitude that no man could number".

But I still have one big blocker. In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God.

I'm wondering what you all have to say about this?

[GalanSRQ]

one possible short answer -- Revelation is not the end of the story just because it's at the end of the Bible.  I Corinthians 15:22-28 is the last event we're informed about -- that is, God becoming All in All

Galan

[micah7:9]

The book of Revelation is now, it is happening now in the heavenlies, if you have ears to hear.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Cannot use the banned word to make my point, so I will have to get creative.

We all learn different and it is that uniqueness and freedom that God gave us that allows us to take paths that our will desires.   However the punch line of that passage is contained in this verse.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There is always hope as promised, this does not mean we cannot make our lives full of misery by what we choose to do.

[coldwar]

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There is always hope as promised, this does not mean we cannot make our lives full of misery by what we choose to do.

I found that very helpful Paul- thank you!

[LS]

For many months I have been pondering this whole UR -vs- ET thing.

Hi coldwar ... since you are searching, I'd like to share with you my belief in eternal destruction. That is, I believe that not all are saved, and those who are not will be destroyed.

I also wanted to believe in US but as I have read and studied on my own and discussed it on this site, I've become more and more convicted that eternal destruction is what the Bible teaches. If you are interested, you can read this thread and [/url=http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/psalm_9_8358.0.html]this thread[/url] - these contain very thoughtful replies from people here at Tentmaker who do believe US, so I think you'll get a pretty balanced look at  both views.

I encourage you to keep searching and keep praying.  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

The book of Revelation is now, it is happening now in the heavenlies, if you have ears to hear.

I am starting to come to that conclusion myself.

[jabcat]

LS, I thought about something again yesterday, and this is a good place to ask.  Do you (or anyone) believe God would "set Israel aside", millions of people, for the past 2,000 years, as He said He has - with almost all of them being veiled, totally unable to see Him or believe ("to this day when they read the Law and the prophets there remains a veil over their eyes") - by His own plan and decree ("until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved" - [by His mercy to the Gentiles] "they may be provoked to jealousy") - and then just completely annihilate them (or for ET'ers, eternally torture them)?  That that would be His plan?  Totally blind millions of people, throughout the past 200 decades,  not by their choice or knowledge, but by His;  then just do away with them, with no further plan after death/in the next age to deal with them and redeem them? 

If so, this is akin to Calvinism;  that most of humanity would be created completely just to be cast aside, annihilated or eternally tormented ("the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but by Him Who subjected it" ) with no further dealings by God of redemption in the ages to come.  IMO, that's something to seriously consider...

[LS]

LS, I thought about something again yesterday, and this is a good place to ask.  Do you (or anyone) believe God would "set Israel aside", millions of people, for the past 2,000 years, as He said He has - with almost all of them being veiled, totally unable to see Him or believe ("to this day when they read the Law and the prophets there remains a veil over their eyes") - by His own plan and decree ("until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved" - [by His mercy to the Gentiles] "they may be provoked to jealousy") - and then just completely annihilate them (or for ET'ers, eternally torture them)?  That that would be His plan?  Totally blind millions of people, throughout the past 200 decades,  not by their choice or knowledge, but by His;  then just do away with them, with no further plan after death/in the next age to deal with them and redeem them?  IMO, that's something to seriously consider...

Remember, I believe "most" will be saved and that non-believers will be judged based on their works - I have quoted the passage from Romans elsewhere that I believe supports this but I don't have time/resources to look it up for you right now (it's the one about the law being written on hearts). I also think the sheep & goat judgement of Matthew is not believers, but unbelievers.

Also, I would point out that there are messianic Jews today - is that veiling still in place? Does it mean that no Jews "can" come to believe now? Obviously that isn't the case, so the veiling is not entirely binding.  I don't have a real solid belief on what this passage means to be honest - that veiling was "to this day" (at the time of writing) but has it ended? Is it still in effect? I don't know; I've never seen a good commentary on that passage. It's used heavily by people who believe in a "rapture" but I'm definitely not one of those, so ...   :dontknow:

But no - I don't believe unbelieving Jews will simply be annihilated just as I don't think that any unbelievers will simply be annihilated; all will be judged and most will be saved.

[jabcat]

As I understand, there are None saved based on works.  IMO, that's completely unscriptural.  There will be a judgment based on works, but it's not about salvation.  Salvation is clearly described;  no one is saved unless they come through Jesus.  There's no other way to the Father.

[jabcat]

Paul was a "Messianic Jew", and He's the one who said the veiling is in place, and that it will be until "the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled".

[LS]

I believe Romans 2:15 tells us that SOME who never heard of Jesus or who were not believers, will be saved because "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"

Just wanted to add the Romans passage - I'm quoting it from another thread, here.

I'd ask you to re-read the Matthew judgement - it is entirely based on works (you gave me water ... you did not give me ... )  I get it that you think it is not for salvation, but in my opinion it is saying that even if they didn't realize it at the time, they WERE serving Jesus and therefore have salvation through Him.

It seems odd to me that you can say everyone is saved, but no one is saved unless they come through Jesus. I do know you think that happens in the next life, but I don't.

[LS]

Paul was a "Messianic Jew", and He's the one who said the veiling is in place, and that it will be until "the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled".

And when is that?

Perhaps it was fulfilled long ago ... perhaps it's yet to be; I don't know. Like I said, I've never seen anyone explain it in a way that struck my spirit as Truth.

(Edited to add: This is an interesting discussion and I'm sorry to post & run, but I'm traveling this weekend and won't be online. I'll try to check back early next week, but I suspect it will have taken off in other directions by then!) 

God bless you bro.   :cloud9:

[jabcat]

Ephesians 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[jabcat]

I believe we err when we try to mix many of the things Jesus said to the Jews, pre-cross, pre-70 AD judgment of the Jews, desctruction of temple worship, the end of their religious system, and the coming of the age of grace. 

Jesus wouldn't say in one place that works saves (which He didn't) then Paul clearly say in another that it's not works that saves (which he did).  It all reconciles when accurately translated and rightly divided.  There are different administrations/different things happening at different times.  Jesus said He came "only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel".  I believe we're currently in the age of grace, the time of the Gentiles.  There's more to come.

"Odd"?   ..that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.. Eph. 2:7

[Paul Hazelwood]

I believe Romans 2:15 tells us that SOME who never heard of Jesus or who were not believers, will be saved because "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"

Just wanted to add the Romans passage - I'm quoting it from another thread, here.

I'd ask you to re-read the Matthew judgement - it is entirely based on works (you gave me water ... you did not give me ... )  I get it that you think it is not for salvation, but in my opinion it is saying that even if they didn't realize it at the time, they WERE serving Jesus and therefore have salvation through Him.

It seems odd to me that you can say everyone is saved, but no one is saved unless they come through Jesus. I do know you think that happens in the next life, but I don't.

Just a clarification from what you believe.   Considering that you do not believe all will be saved, this inquiry is concerning the ones you do believe will be saved

If I am reading what you wrote correctly you wil believe that no one comes through Jesus in the next life.  Are you saying that everyone who does get saved, gets that way only through Jesus in this life? 

Or are you saying that someone who does get saved based on the following didn't need Jesus to be saved in the first place?

They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them

[Taffy]

The book of Revelation is now, it is happening now in the heavenlies, if you have ears to hear.

:thumbsup:

[LS]

  Do you (or anyone) believe God would "set Israel aside", millions of people, for the past 2,000 years, as He said He has - with almost all of them being veiled, totally unable to see Him or believe ("to this day when they read the Law and the prophets there remains a veil over their eyes") - by His own plan and decree ("until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved"

Hi again Jabcat - I apologize again for being so pressed on time. I'm literally on my way out the door but wanted to double-check something you wrote, and I guess I'm still not sure if you understand ...

"Jews" are only from the tribe of Judah, just as Levites are only from the tribe of Levi, etc.

So to say something about "the jews" is not to say that about "all of Israel." 

You'll see this time & again in the books of Kings ... do a search of the phrase "are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah?" and "are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel?"  Those are written time & time again.

Sorry this is convoluted, but I want to look at the passage you referenced about "hardening" and how it relates to "the jews" and/or to Israel.  Jesus brought a new covenant to Israel, it's in place and the old is no more. (Heb chapter 8, I believe)

Have a great weekend and say a lil' pray for me - I really don't like flying but I'm accompanying my mom to visit her brother whose health is failing   :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

I personally don't believe God is through with "natural Israel", and I believe that's obviously who Paul was talking about - us being grafted in, we're not to speak against the tree, etc.  I don't claim to know exactly who all that is, scattered abroad, but I'm confident God knows.   :bigGrin:

Be safe, comfort and God's will to your family.   

[Nathan]

I don't see the Jews being tied only to Judah . . .All of Israel makes up a Jewish nation.  "We" are Jews spiritually in that we've been circumcised, circumcision comes through our relationship with the Father through the son . .the cutting away of the power of areas of flesh in us.  We "were" spiritual Gentiles, uncricumcised . . .again, it has nothing to do with our final destination.  That's a separate issue.  The circumcision is what happens inwardly and my WORKS manifest that change outwardly.  I don't believe we are judged by our works, I believe we're rewarded due to our works, but the works are only what they are, good or bad, due to the condition of where our heart is at.  Purity within, manifests purity without.  And vise versa.

As to the original question about those who are this or that, let them be this or that . . .it's not a sequential time table . . .so many people have attempted to do that with the book and that's not what it's about.  We "say" it's a revelation of JESUS CHRIST but then we turn the book all around and make it all about us.   . . .the destruction of men, the earth, hell is thrown in, false prophet . . .by the time we're dune dividing it up, we completely lose the actual truth that the book was named after in the first place.  It's a Revelation of the nature of Jesus, of the purpose of Jesus, of the will of Jesus . . .it's all about Jesus . . .either that or the title itself is a lie.

Keep in mind to those to whom it's written to . . .those who have ears (equipped to hear truth) and can hear (enabled to identify the sound of truth) same as those with eyes (spirtual vision equpped) and can see (spiritual vision enabled)

Many are equipped .  .but few are enabled.  We have the car but don't have the keys to start it.  In "this" vehicle, you have to put your foot on your head (brakes) before you can put things in gear.  This thing runs by spiritual power, not by natural might or strengths. 

[Nathan]

For many months I have been pondering this whole UR -vs- ET thing. I will say from the outset I WANT to believe in UR, as this is the will of God "not willing that any should perish". I want to agree with God. I've been through many exercises of examining the scriptures, and I certainly "get" the whole "ages of the ages" thing, and have learned many other wonderful things, such as the real source of the Dives and Lazarus parable, and the way so many Christians mis-quote passages such as the "narrow gate" and "few that find it", especially where in the same context Jesus says "they will come from all corners of earth into the Kingdom, but the first shall be last and the last shall be first", so not few, but many will be saved, in fact in Rev. 7:9 "a great multitude that no man could number".

But I still have one big blocker. In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God.

I'm wondering what you all have to say about this?

This was the first post on this thread.  and for me, the blocker issue . . .to see it "after" all things restored is to see it in some sequential order of how things unfold on the earth.  But the name of the book is not "How the earth ends"  Last Days of Man . . ."  So . .what "is" it saying?  To me it's saying those who are dirty, leave them dirty.  They're dirty on the outside because it's a reflection of who they are on the inside . . .and you can't change their inside . . that's the work of the spirit.  This verse is immediately following the instruction God just gave John to NOT seal the book . . .

Let me tie together what may sound contradicting.  It's dimensional like everything else.  It did unfold naturally, but not 2000 years later . . .He was telling John that it's already started and those that are unrighteous will remain that way as that's the condition of their heart.  If he tells me they're going to remain what they are inside, then I would think that means he's not interested in my trying to fix people.  We didn't create the field, we just plant in it.  If it's sandy soil when I plant, it'll still be sandy soil when there's a harvest.

This book was still addressing the removal of the Old Covenant system . . .it wasn't going to be pretty.  But it was necessary.  And for us now?  Our purpose is not to try to expect it to unfold naturallyl again in a literal time table, we're merely to apply it to our inward nature . . .can "you" circumcise yourself?  The unrighteousness in you will remain unrighteous.  His nature in you is what causes it to be cut away from your inward nature.  We're not the ones separating the sheep nature (godly) and goat nature (ungodly ) within us.  As we grow and mature in our relationship with the Father, his angels (message) is what does the separating in us.

[coldwar]

Nathan - my problem comes from not even being able to imagine a reply like yours. Not being sarcastic at all, it's just that, like most people, I do not think like that. What I see in this passage is mere association, made by comparison - death and hell being destroyed, and God making all things new - the two main events of apokatastasis, and yet, there are still people who remain outside of it all who refuse to be restored. This kind of suggests to me the more conventional theology that "people ultimately choose hell" - God wins people to heaven, He never forces against their wills. But I like Paul's idea above that in spite of everything being restored, the restoration remains ongoing, as every voice is crying out "come" to these people who remain stubbornly unrepentant.

[Molly]

Coldwar,

Who is wicked? me
Who is filthy? me
Who is righteous? Christ
Who is holy? Christ

The way I read that passage:  the wicked are still wicked and the filthy are still filthy and the Righteous One is still justifying and the Holy One is still sanctifying.


We are looking at a process, aren't we? Each in his own order.  But, in Rev 22 the process has begun and is ongoing.  The gates of the city are never ever closed.  The sacrifice of the Lamb is eis diēnekes -- into perpetuity[Heb10:12]. The Spirit and the bride are calling out to all.


14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


that they may have "right"
G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.



15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

--Rev 22


So, each person must wash his robes in the blood of the Lamb and make them white.


13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

--Rev 7



The question is--will all eventually do this?  Paul tells us in 1 Cor 15, YES.

How else could God be all in all?

[Molly]

Here's the Greek


ο  definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho  ho:  the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
αδικων  verb - present active participle - nominative singular masculine
adikeo ad-ee-keh'-o:  to be unjust, i.e. (actively) do wrong (morally, socially or physically) -- hurt, injure, be an offender, be unjust, (do, suffer, take) wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
αδικησατω  verb - aorist active middle - third person singular
adikeo  ad-ee-keh'-o:  to be unjust, i.e. (actively) do wrong (morally, socially or physically) -- hurt, injure, be an offender, be unjust, (do, suffer, take) wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ετι  adverb
eti  et'-ee:  yet, still (of time or degree) -- after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-)henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more(-one), now, still, yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
και  conjunction
kai kahee:  and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ο  definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho  ho:  the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ρυπαρος  adjective - nominative singular masculine
rhuparos rhoo-par-os':  dirty, i.e. (relatively) cheap or shabby; morally, wicked -- vile.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ρυπαρευθητω  verb - aorist passive imperative - third person singular
rhupoo rhoo-po'-o:  to soil, i.e. (intransitively) to become dirty (morally) -- be filthy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ετι  adverb
eti et'-ee:  yet, still (of time or degree) -- after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-)henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more(-one), now, still, yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
και  conjunction
kai  kahee:  and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ο  definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho ho:  the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
δικαιος  adjective - nominative singular masculine
dikaios dik'-ah-yos:  equitable (in character or act); by implication, innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively) -- just, meet, right(-eous).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
δικαιοσυνην  noun - accusative singular feminine
dikaiosune  dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay:  equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification -- righteousness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ποιησατω  verb - aorist active middle - third person singular
poieo  poy-eh'-o:  to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ετι  adverb
eti et'-ee:  yet, still (of time or degree) -- after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-)henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more(-one), now, still, yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
και  conjunction
kai  kahee:  and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ο  definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho  ho:  the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
αγιος  adjective - nominative singular masculine
hagios  hag'-ee-os:  sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated) -- (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
αγιασθητω  verb - aorist passive imperative - third person singular
hagiazo  hag-ee-ad'-zo:  to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate -- hallow, be holy, sanctify.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ετι  adverb
eti  et'-ee:  yet, still (of time or degree) -- after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-)henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more(-one), now, still, yet.

[coldwar]

Molly-

I thank you for a thought-provoking answer - also for the tremendous effort you've put into interpreting the Greek for me (which I confess is "all Greek to me" for the moment :happy3:

It raises another question for me however:
Hebrews 10:12 "But *he*, having offered one sacrifice for sins, sat down in perpetuity at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from henceforth until his enemies be set for the footstool of his feet. 14 For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified".

Doesn't this say that he sat down at the right hand of God "in perpetuity", and that his ONE offering has perfected the sanctified "in perpetuity", not that his offering itself is "in perpetuity"? His offering was "once for all", not perpetual - so I see these other things as perpetual here, not his offering.