Another mystical experience, this time pro-UR

[barbierir]

Hi all
Last summer at the beginning of my study of UR I stumbled upon the homepage of a woman, Laura Maschi, http://www.lauramaschi.it, there she has collected online a long series of notes she began writing from the sixties untill recent times. She says they were dictated by internal voices, sometime God or Jesus, Mary, angels, etc...

There are little biographical informations about her, she is a simple housewife but in the 60' she had attended the collection and publication of the writings of Luisa Valtorta, a catholic mystic whose works are still well know today. Laura started to hear the voices some years later but her writings didn't enjoy the same reception as Valtorta's, indeed she was met with hostility. I think I can guess why: among other themes the voices speak plainly about UR!

As I said in a previous post I think all mystical experience must be read with extreme caution and a grain of salt, that said I think this case is noteworthy because Laura is a catholic and she had never thought before about UR, so that idea came as quite a surprise to her.

The writings deal with almost every aspect of life, I found them inspiring but I don't make any claim about their correcteness, anyway I think you may enjoy my translation of some excerpt about UR:

<<LM: Why, my Lord, all these contradictory ideas in the search for truth? Valtorta spoke about the beatific life, if one lived for God, and the horrific life, if one lived for Satan. So is there o not an eternal hell? Are there two kinds of eternal life?
God: All depends on the understanding of the word "eternal". I already said that "eternal" is compared to and relative to "time". "Time" has a beginning and an end, and it refers to the actions of men on earth. The eternity is relative to God, without beginning or end. When a man is born he enters a body, he is free in his life and responsible for his conscious actions. When man passes out of life he enters the reign of the "Eternal". In this reign he must purify to enter the house of the Father. Until his psichic body isn't free from drosses he can't join with his spiritual body with whom he will be glorified on the last day. The last day indicates the passage from a still earthly situation, puryfication, to the eternal situation, that is blessed as the Eternal is blessed. Therefore the life of man passes through 3 steps: temporary on earth; purifying in the life after life; blessed in the final encounter with the Eternal. I dictated to my voices the truth as understandable to all of them, in conformity to their evolution in time. Therefore you can understand the apparent contraddictions. The truth is one but the creature understand it a little at a time, according to his evolution in time. Be satisfied and thank. That is about the contradiction on the existence of hell: eternal, untill men don't understand the meaning of the word, temporary, when men understand that "Eternal" is only the Creator and all that returns to him.>>

<<Let understand in the parables the profound meaning springing from the tale, told with human categories to make it understable to the brain of men always in evolution. If you tell a parable to a child he understands only the story, the external aspect visibile to his little mind. If the man is an adult his mind is mature and he understands the recondite meaning symbolized in that story. This is what my Church must do today. Adult in faith is he who catch a glimpse of it, and who finds in the Word, and expecially in the parables, the meaning of such tales. For example: the lost sheep. If in the sheepfold already are 99 rigtheous sheeps and the Good Shepard goes to seek the lost one and, found her, takes her in arms, cures her and takes her back to the sheepfold, this means that all the sheeps, in the end, will enter the sheepfold, no one excluded, neither the most rebel, the most stupid, the most distracted who went away from the flock to search, alone, new pastures and was left alone and wounded, and can't find, alone, the way back to the sheepfold. This is the profound meaning of this parable.>>

<<Justice is human logic, misericordy is divine logic>>

<<Don't be sad my dear, you can't convert the world, neither did I convert it with my word but I saved it with my death and resurrection. You can do the same for as much as you are allowed to do. The negative force will try the world untill the end but not beyond it. After the end, the man who couldn't or didn't want to convert during "time", will understand my love and will convert, after having acknowledged his faults>>

<<"Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels" So Jesus spoke in the parable of the last Judgment. A parable rich of analogies. The "cursed" are those who said or did evils during "time". "Fire" is the symbol of divine light that lights up in the Gehenna for each man and shows to him all the love omissions made during time; fire that "warms", that makes feel its great love to him who didn't love; fire that "burns" the tares of the repenting sinner, forgiving and deleting his sins. The "fire" is eternal because only God has no beginning and no end. The "supplice" is the work of justice of the Eternal Just who purifies the sinner in the Gehenna through the painful memory and remorse for the evil done during time. Not the supplice is eternal! It is the Eternal Just who causes the state of purification by means of painful awareness for a certain period of time for him who didn't offer love! But the Father, after "justice", makes the repenter feel his "mercy", that is his loving and eternal pardon for each sinner made "just" after the conscious purification.>>


Renzo

[Doc]

Hi all
Last summer at the beginning of my study of UR I stumbled upon the homepage of a woman, Laura Maschi, http://www.lauramaschi.it, there she has collected online a long series of notes she began writing from the sixties untill recent times. She says they were dictated by internal voices, sometime God or Jesus, Mary, angels, etc...

There are little biographical informations about her, she is a simple housewife but in the 60' she had attended the collection and publication of the writings of Luisa Valtorta, a catholic mystic whose works are still well know today. Laura started to hear the voices some years later but her writings didn't enjoy the same reception as Valtorta's, indeed she was met with hostility. I think I can guess why: among other themes the voices speak plainly about UR!

As I said in a previous post I think all mystical experience must be read with extreme caution and a grain of salt, that said I think this case is noteworthy because Laura is a catholic and she had never thought before about UR, so that idea came as quite a surprise to her.

The writings deal with almost every aspect of life, I found them inspiring but I don't make any claim about their correcteness, anyway I think you may enjoy my translation of some excerpt about UR:

<<LM: Why, my Lord, all these contradictory ideas in the search for truth? Valtorta spoke about the beatific life, if one lived for God, and the horrific life, if one lived for Satan. So is there o not an eternal hell? Are there two kinds of eternal life?
God: All depends on the understanding of the word "eternal". I already said that "eternal" is compared to and relative to "time". "Time" has a beginning and an end, and it refers to the actions of men on earth. The eternity is relative to God, without beginning or end. When a man is born he enters a body, he is free in his life and responsible for his conscious actions. When man passes out of life he enters the reign of the "Eternal". In this reign he must purify to enter the house of the Father. Until his psichic body isn't free from drosses he can't join with his spiritual body with whom he will be glorified on the last day. The last day indicates the passage from a still earthly situation, puryfication, to the eternal situation, that is blessed as the Eternal is blessed. Therefore the life of man passes through 3 steps: temporary on earth; purifying in the life after life; blessed in the final encounter with the Eternal. I dictated to my voices the truth as understandable to all of them, in conformity to their evolution in time. Therefore you can understand the apparent contraddictions. The truth is one but the creature understand it a little at a time, according to his evolution in time. Be satisfied and thank. That is about the contradiction on the existence of hell: eternal, untill men don't understand the meaning of the word, temporary, when men understand that "Eternal" is only the Creator and all that returns to him.>>

<<Let understand in the parables the profound meaning springing from the tale, told with human categories to make it understable to the brain of men always in evolution. If you tell a parable to a child he understands only the story, the external aspect visibile to his little mind. If the man is an adult his mind is mature and he understands the recondite meaning symbolized in that story. This is what my Church must do today. Adult in faith is he who catch a glimpse of it, and who finds in the Word, and expecially in the parables, the meaning of such tales. For example: the lost sheep. If in the sheepfold already are 99 rigtheous sheeps and the Good Shepard goes to seek the lost one and, found her, takes her in arms, cures her and takes her back to the sheepfold, this means that all the sheeps, in the end, will enter the sheepfold, no one excluded, neither the most rebel, the most stupid, the most distracted who went away from the flock to search, alone, new pastures and was left alone and wounded, and can't find, alone, the way back to the sheepfold. This is the profound meaning of this parable.>>

<<Justice is human logic, misericordy is divine logic>>

<<Don't be sad my dear, you can't convert the world, neither did I convert it with my word but I saved it with my death and resurrection. You can do the same for as much as you are allowed to do. The negative force will try the world untill the end but not beyond it. After the end, the man who couldn't or didn't want to convert during "time", will understand my love and will convert, after having acknowledged his faults>>

<<"Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels" So Jesus spoke in the parable of the last Judgment. A parable rich of analogies. The "cursed" are those who said or did evils during "time". "Fire" is the symbol of divine light that lights up in the Gehenna for each man and shows to him all the love omissions made during time; fire that "warms", that makes feel its great love to him who didn't love; fire that "burns" the tares of the repenting sinner, forgiving and deleting his sins. The "fire" is eternal because only God has no beginning and no end. The "supplice" is the work of justice of the Eternal Just who purifies the sinner in the Gehenna through the painful memory and remorse for the evil done during time. Not the supplice is eternal! It is the Eternal Just who causes the state of purification by means of painful awareness for a certain period of time for him who didn't offer love! But the Father, after "justice", makes the repenter feel his "mercy", that is his loving and eternal pardon for each sinner made "just" after the conscious purification.>>


Renzo

This is very interesting. It lines up very well with a lot of what I've read in NDE accounts, particularly regarding judgment, purification and "evolution" (change) that is produced in mankind in his encounter with the eternal (God).

The only confusing thing about that verse is the "depart from me language". If he is sending people into the "eternal fire" and the eternal fire is God, where is He sending them?

[Tony N]

Sounds like someone is listening to "spirits" and not what God has revealed in His word.

[jabcat]

I was thinking about that on the golf course this afternoon (another place to worship  :happygrin:).  It is quite interesting, but IMO, if there's anything in there that can be shown to be unscriptural (accurately translated, properly divided, etc.), then I can't accept it.  I'm not saying there's anything here that falls into that category, I haven't examined it that closely...but IMO, to be believed, the Word has to bear witness..my  :2c:.

[Nancy]

Hi there all,
Why do we reject something just because it isn't in the 'bible'. How do you interpret the 'bible'. I believe God talks in more than the 'bible'. Hasn't anyone read Conversations with God?
Godbless
Nancy

[Tony N]

Hi Nancy, it was given to the apostle Paul "to complete the word of God" (Col.1:25).

We don't need someone listening to familiar spirits to get further ideas beyond what the Bible says.

The idea the spiritist promotes that one has to purifiy oneself or one can't come into God's presence is pure bunk.

The way into God's presence is not by our purification but due to being "in Christ."

[jabcat]

Hi there all,
Why do we reject something just because it isn't in the 'bible'. How do you interpret the 'bible'. I believe God talks in more than the 'bible'. Hasn't anyone read Conversations with God?
Godbless
Nancy

I can only speak for me, where I stand, what I understand, and what I believe.  In my thoughts I was very careful to say "accurately translated and properly divided" scripture.  And I also said if something was unscriptural, (against, obviously something different from what God has revealed in His perpetually, perhaps progressively Spirit-revealed logos) then there was an issue.  God speaks in many ways, but IMO, never against what lines up with accurately translated, properly divided (interpreted, used in proper context) scripture.  If we believe things that are shown to be antiscriptural, then IMO, we're vulnerable to believe anything, including things that come from places other than God....as Tony says, familiar spirits, satan's lies, etc. 

I personally haven't read "Conversations With God", and just as I was careful to say about this OP, I don't know if anything there is antiscriptural or not.  But if there were, personally, I wouldn't trust it.  Again, to be clear...I'm not saying everything God ever reveals is line by line out of the "Bible"...but IMO, if it can't honestly be reconciled with the logos, I think it's at the very least suspect.  My  :2c:.

[ScarletWren]

I also have not read any of the literature being discussed on this thread.  But like others I would be very cautious about jumping to conclusions (either way, of course) about the veracity of the revelations.

It just reminds me of some of the history of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other 'prophets' of Mormonism.  It seems whenever Smith thought it was time for a change within their 'church' he got a new 'revelation.'  Polygamy was not part of the original revelation he received in the Mormon bible tablets.  In fact, I think there was a passage against it, but it's been a long time since I studied it so I could be mistaken.  But polygamy became tantamount to a command for awhile, until Idaho was refused admittance to the Union because of it, then the prophet at that time received a revelation that it should be abandoned for a time.  I also seem to recall that black individuals were said to be black because they had committed some severe sin in the pre-existence and were cursed here on earth and weren't allowed to be a deacon or elder because of it.  Then when civil rights started to come into the picture, and state assistance, etc,. another prophet received revelation that persons of color were to be treated equally within the church.  I'm not saying that any of what's being talked about here parallels the history of mormonism, but just that we can talk about continual revelation but God said He does not change and so we have to be careful any new 'revelations' do not contradict what has been revealed in the past.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Simple way to test the spirits. On the day of Pentecost the HG magnified the One who sent it. Principle: the spirit always exalts the one who sent it. If it doesn't point to the Father, and Jesus Christ and/or His works as revealed in His Word, then it's the wrong spirit.

And anyone saying they hear voices, is a contradiction of the Word which says, my sheep hear my VOICE, singular, and should be the first red flag to go up. My  :2c:  Blessings....

[Molly]

Hi Nancy, it was given to the apostle Paul "to complete the word of God" (Col.1:25).

We don't need someone listening to familiar spirits to get further ideas beyond what the Bible says.

The idea the spiritist promotes that one has to purifiy oneself or one can't come into God's presence is pure bunk.

The way into God's presence is not by our purification but due to being "in Christ."

In fact, since it leaves Christ out of the picture--'purify oneself'--it is antiChrist.

--talking about 'spiritists.'

[barbierir]

Perhaps the few examples I've translated may present a false picture, she always speaks a lot about Christ and God and I don't found anything unscriptural with the idea of God puryfing the sinners with his fire. Far from me to substitute these things for the Word, but with my Catholic background I've no prejudice against mystics when their writings are consistent with God's revelation, explaining but not changing or altering the Word.
It was Jesus who said to the apostles: "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you." - John 16:12-14

I know that evangelicals are much more suspicious about mysticism and that can place some misunderstanding between us. What struck me in this case is that while all her texts follow tradition with the exception of UR, the latter was consistent with what I had already discovered in other ways.

Renzo

[jabcat]

Good points of clarification, thanks  :thumbsup:.

[barbierir]

Here are other two excerpts:

<<Why today, more than ever, a part of my Church lays the stress on what may have been mistranslated from my Word and she doesn't look first at what is carefully translated? I have spoken and the man must accept my Word as conveyed in other languages. But if the concept is the same in all languages, then the concept is mine for sure. If there are discordances, my Church has the duty to refrain from different interpretations but she must follow only what is beyond argument.>>

<<In the Gehenna each man shall see, without any oversight or omission, all the good that he had to do or could have done during his temporal life, the rejection of this good and the indifference to the positive. Such positive never done, becomes negative, becomes evil. All this evil, done by each "egoist" to harm other poor men and needers, will be self evident to each man in the Gehenna, once the man freed by the limits of body (which is under influence of the liar, the prince of the temporal world) shall be lightened by the Eternal Fire and will see clearly the evil done, that is the good never done. And there will be "cryes and snashing of teeth"! Such is the situation of each man after the death of his physical body, this will help him to repent of his recognized sins and ask the Father for forgiveness. Father who gave him the "talents" and let him free to use them during his time, and then will make him return to the sheepfold in the end, where the loving shepard is waiting for him with open arms. That is the mercy of the "just" God who first makes the man fully aware of his deeds - this is the divine justice - and then forgives the repenter because he loves him. This is the mercy, the last act of the Eternal Love.>>


I think that's enough and I stop here.

greetings
Renzo

[Tony N]

<<In the Gehenna each man shall see, without any oversight or omission, all the good that he had to do or could have done during his temporal life, the rejection of this good and the indifference to the positive.

Dear barbierir,
In the Scriptures Gehenna is never used the way the above mystic uses it. Gehenna is a trash dump just outside of Jerusalem and will be used to get rid of the city offal. In the future **dead bodies** of criminals will be dumped there where the worms will devour and if the fire which is burning the contents of the trash reaches the body then the fire will burn up the body. There is no conscious awareness in Gehenna for those dumped therein.

"And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,says Yahweh." And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isa 66:23-24)

"And if your hand should ever be snaring you, strike it off. It is ideal for you to be entering into life maimed, rather than, having two hands, to come away into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire" where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out. And if your foot should be snaring you, strike it off. For it is ideal for you to be entering into life maimed or lame, rather than, having two feet, to be cast into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire, where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out".
(Mar 9:43-46)

[WhiteWings]

Tony I've read that explanation many times.
A week ago I stumbled on:

Mark 9:47-50 YLT
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of 48 God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
==> The above 2 lines sound negative, or have the meaning you posted.

49 for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.
50 The salt is good ....
==> But here the fire is linked to salt and salt is said to be good. Even that everyone needs to be salted.


What if I bend your explanation a little and call Gehenna causes a 'purifying shame'?
Can you agree with that?

[bobf]

Dear barbierir,
In the Scriptures Gehenna is never used the way the above mystic uses it. Gehenna is a trash dump just outside of Jerusalem and will be used to get rid of the city offal. In the future **dead bodies** of criminals will be dumped there where the worms will devour and if the fire which is burning the contents of the trash reaches the body then the fire will burn up the body. There is no conscious awareness in Gehenna for those dumped therein.

I disagree Tony.  Much of what the "mystic" says I "got" from scripture (not from a person or a website) in the one day I went from 100% opposed to UR to 95% convinced while setting out to disprove UR from scripture.

Wailing and gnashing of teeth is consciousness.

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Body AND SOUL

Mathew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.  

EVERY TREE not just the ones who happen to be alive at the end of the age

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Axe is laid at the root of the tree NOW

Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

[Tony N]

Dear barbierir,
In the Scriptures Gehenna is never used the way the above mystic uses it. Gehenna is a trash dump just outside of Jerusalem and will be used to get rid of the city offal. In the future **dead bodies** of criminals will be dumped there where the worms will devour and if the fire which is burning the contents of the trash reaches the body then the fire will burn up the body. There is no conscious awareness in Gehenna for those dumped therein.

Disagree Tony.

Wailing and gnashing of teeth is consciousness.

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Body AND SOUL

Mathew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.  

EVERY TREE not just the ones who happen to be alive at the end of the age

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Axe is laid at the root of the tree NOW

Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Dear Bobf, the wailing and gnashing of teeth has to do with Jews getting kicked out of the kingdom to have to live among the Gentiles.
Gehenna is inside the kingdom and is for the vilest of criminals who receive the death penalty and then have their dead bodies cast into the dump called Gehenna.

Obviously there are different usages of "fire" in the new testament. You surely don't believe that everywhere fire is used it means Gehenna?
In Matthew 25 the nations go into eonian chastening which is also called the fire eonian. Yet we know that all those nations cannot possibly fit into that teeny little area called Gehenna, the trash dump.

Likewise:
Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,
Mat 13:42 and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.

When Israel was held captive in Egypt they were said to be in the iron furnace. That is not Gehenna. In the future when Christ cleans house He is going to kick out of His kingdom those bad apples and cast them into a furnace of fire (meaning the nations). It is there, outside the kingdom where they will be gnashing and lamenting.

Mat 3:10 "Yet already the ax is lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, which is not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.

That was a threat. The ax was not being used YET. It was just lying at the root of the trees ready to be used. It has not been used yet. When Christ returns the ax will cut down (figuratively) the bad trees producing bad fruit and cast those trees out of the kingdom to live among the nations.

[bobf]

Tony I've read that explanation many times.
A week ago I stumbled on:

49 for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.
50 The salt is good ....
==> But here the fire is linked to salt and salt is said to be good. Even that everyone needs to be salted.

That was one of the verses that convinced me of UR.  I became convinced of UR a single day, while setting out to disprove UR by looking up every single verse dealing with fire, wrath, judgment using blueletterbible.com (and using the K button to find related verses).  I was gathering a list of verses against UR and in the process became 95% convinced of it.  And that was at a time when I believed scriptures were 99% literal.

I had a fun time reading the commentaries on that verse.

[bobf]

Dear Bobf, the wailing and gnashing of teeth has to do with Jews getting kicked out of the kingdom to have to live among the Gentiles.

Jesus said "every tree" not "every Jewish tree"

Obviously there are different usages of "fire" in the new testament. You surely don't believe that everywhere fire is used it means Gehenna?

I see two basic usages:
1. Fire as judgment of sinners (gehenna)
2. Fire that trying the faith of the righteous

The righteous have to endure the fire they sowed as sinners.  (Isaiah 33:14,15) (Lam 3)  And they have to endure the fire that tries their faith.

In Matthew 25 the nations go into eonian chastening which is also called the fire eonian. Yet we know that all those nations cannot possibly fit into that teeny little area called Gehenna, the trash dump.

Lot's of people can fit within the spiritual fire of judgment.  I don't see how a burning trash dump can create salted sacrifices.

I don't take gehenna as a literal place Tony, any more than I believe Christ cuts down literal trees and burns them in a literal fire.

[Tony N]

Lot's of people can fit within the spiritual fire of judgment.  I don't see how a burning trash dump can create salted sacrifices.

Exactly. That is why salted sacrifices has nothing whatsoever to do with Gehenna.

I don't take gehenna as a literal place Tony, any more than I believe Christ cuts down literal trees and burns them in a literal fire.

[/quote]

That's your problem, not mine.

[sven]

it's no offense, but i think extra biblical arguments for UR do more harm then they might help, because we can being accused of beeing unbiblical, just my opinion

on the other hand, the hell teachers also often use unbiblical arguments (eg. NDEs) for their doctrine, so it might help, that unbiblical sources seem to support the one, some the other view, but it's just my opinion.

[bobf]

Exactly. That is why salted sacrifices has nothing whatsoever to do with Gehenna.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched... For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

For = because.  Connecting thoughts.

The fire of judgment salts.

Zepheniah 3:8 "Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal. 9 "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, That all of them may call on the name of the LORD, To serve Him shoulder to shoulder. 10 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, Will bring My offerings. 11 "In that day you will feel no shame Because of all your deeds By which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst Your proud, exulting ones, And you will never again be haughty On My holy mountain. 12 "But I will leave among you A humble and lowly people, And they will take refuge in the name of the LORD. 13 "The remnant of Israel will do no wrong And tell no lies, Nor will a deceitful tongue Be found in their mouths; For they will feed and lie down With no one to make them tremble."

The future remant of Israel
- HAD rebelled against God
- HAD BEEN haughty
- HAD BEEN liars
- ARE cast into the fire of judgment
- ARE devoured by the fire of God's zeal

and EXIT that judgment with
- purified lips
- to call upon the name of the Lord
- to serve Him
- no more lies
- no more decietful tongue
etc.

i.e. salted with "fire" which fire refers to judgment.

So what's happening above?
1. sinners are being cast into fire of judgment
2. righteous people emerging

Sound familiar?

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi; I want you to know I'm not picking on you here and I thank you for adding some more, but I also have to be honest and tell you from my view it doesn't change the problem. ie. plural voices, being one of the main problems. What this actually is, is the sin of necromancy, which is seeking information from disembodied entities, which are demons impersonating the dead.

The dubious veracity of the information obtained, means nothing, for the familiar spirit in the woman following Paul was speaking the truth. Paul didn't seem to appreciate the "witness", nor did the Lord with the demons in the man of the Gadarenes.

The problem is, and still remains, those that seek hidden knowledge apart from the Spirit of Christ, are trying to ascend (add one cubit to their stature) without His covering, and as such are as an uncovered woman/soul, subject to unholy "attachments".

The fact is, books of this nature have an attachment literally in them, that goes home with the person who buys it, believe it or not. It's not the thing, but the spirit behind the thing, as Paul said. Having been involved in many "house cleanings" of this sort over the years, I can witness to the fact they are there, and do not take kindly to being uncovered, and this is the part in the "movie" where things start flying off the walls, and usually much, much worse before it gets better.

This is why when a person goes though a deliverance (ie. the Lord's prayer, deliver us from evil) you don't stop with just the physical body deliverance, but have to get them to do as the men did in Acts with their "curious" books and bring them to be destroyed, or the pull of that thing, has a legal right to enter right back in, worse/bands made stronger. Most people would be shocked to know just how much of this is needed in the body of Christ even, because of either the ignorance of what the Word says about it, or the complete refusal to believe what the Word says about it. Either way, it has disastrous results.

So, the natural literal house has to be "cleansed" of the offending thing (s) also. Take not an abomination into your house, lest you worship that thing. Repentance means to change the mind, but it also requires an action of some sort, just like faith requires works.

The most common argument I've seen is the "I didn't seek this, I just started hearing them, this is my gift". With Christ, the giver IS the gift, ie. some attribute of His nature/Spirit. This "gift" above, is not a gift, but a curse.

I paid particular attention to this part........

"All this evil, done by each "egoist" to harm other poor men and needers, will be self evident to each man in the Gehenna, once the man freed by the limits of body (which is under influence of the liar, the prince of the temporal world) shall be lightened by the Eternal Fire and will see clearly the evil done, that is the good never done."

This is another very subtle lie, for several reasons. The first being this is the root of one of the things Satan tempted the Lord with, ie. cast thyself down (free yourself from the body by jumping = self murder). The body is not the only portion of man that is subject to the evil one, there is our soul to worry about, and the death of the the body does not free the soul from his reach, unless that soul was IN CHRIST.

Second, evil is not, "good never done". Evil is not merely an action or lack of action (works) but the very spirit behind it, the embodiment of all that God isn't. The thief cometh not except to kill, steal and destroy.

I wish that all Christians could be in the presence of evil for just 5 of the 20 minutes myself and a friend of mine were in the presence of a demon prior to knowing the Lord (which was the catalyst for me coming to Him). The very air itself around us was unimaginable evil, and we nearly lost our minds over the experience. But as horrific as it was, we give thanks to Him who opened our eyes through it, because we have never been the same since, nor can be. We serve a holy God, and to tempt chastisement with such things as this, is foolish and dangerous. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Sarah]

Sheol not only means the place of the dead physically, but also metaphorically. David cried to God, "If I make my bed in Sheol behold thou are there."  Likewise, Gehenna is a garbage dump for the dead, a place for the dead literally, and also metaphorically. "It is the sin and the woe of the person who has gained the whole world, but lost their own soul." J.W.Hanson.

"...the new testament usage shows that while it had not wholly lost its literal sense, it was also employed in the time of Christ as a symbol of moral corruption and wickedness; but more especially as a figure of the terrible judgments of God on the rebellious and sinful nation of the Jews." (Hanson)

Origen says that Gehenna denotes (1) the vale of Hinnom, and (2) a purificatory fire. It is also interesting to note that the Jewish view of Gehenna is that the judgement of Gehnenna is no longer than 12 months,  and also that the wicked stay in Gehenna till the resurrection, and then "the Messiah passing through it redeems them".

[NinjaWizards777]

Hi Nancy, it was given to the apostle Paul "to complete the word of God" (Col.1:25).

We don't need someone listening to familiar spirits to get further ideas beyond what the Bible says.

The idea the spiritist promotes that one has to purifiy oneself or one can't come into God's presence is pure bunk.

The way into God's presence is not by our purification but due to being "in Christ."

But...unless there really is a mistranslation issue...dont certain parts of the bible give an idea of eternal hell, and other of ultimate reconcilliation? I understand what your saying and I kindof agree, but somtimes I think people forget the bible was written BY listening to, what seemed to be, God that inspired them, and reaccounting their interactions with him. thats what the bible is. and some of those books, various accounts...are left out.