God said in Gen 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
And then in Gen 6:20 Of the fowl after its kind, and of the cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every sort they come in unto thee, to keep alive.
And we know by reading that Gen 7:13 In this self-same day went in Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, unto the ark;
Gen 7:14 they, and every living creature after its kind, and every beast after its kind, and every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth after its kind, and every fowl after its kind, every bird--every wing.
Gen 7:15 And they come in unto Noah, unto the ark, two by two of all the flesh in which is a living spirit;
Gen 7:16 and they that are coming in, male and female of all flesh, have come in as God hath commanded him, and Jehovah doth close it for him.
My wondering is did Noah, since he was to take clean and unclean, was a human being, male and female other than Noah, his wife, Shem, Ham, and Japheth and their wives allowed into the ark?
It reads in Gen 6:19 and of all that liveth, of all flesh, two of every sort thou dost bring in unto the ark, to keep alive with thee; male and female are they.
I realize it is a strange question, but reading Gen 9:1 And God blesseth Noah, and his sons, and saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth;
Where did the tainting of the man begin if we read it was Noah and his wife, his sons and their wives?
1Pe 3:20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah--an ark being preparing--in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
It is interesting to note that "saved"in this verse is G1295
diasōzō
From G1223 and G4982; to save thoroughly, that is, (by implication or analogy) to cure, preserve, rescue, etc.: - bring safe, escape (safe), heal, make perfectly whole, save.
When 99% of the time G4982 is used. G4982
sōzō
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
I dont know, I heard a guy on TV say "all flesh" speaking of Noah and I was shaken. Why? Well all those other persons, human beings, souls that did not/would not hear Noah were all flesh as well as the fowl and the living creeping creatures, is that not so?
The Spirit is moving Micah!
I was just thinking the same thing!
Tell me someone;
If this is all God's plan, what is MY SIN?
Why do you ask what is "your sin" as if your sin is any different that mine or john doe?
That's right Micah!
Sin was nailed to the cross forever.
Yours, mine and ours.
FLESH is the result of the sin thus flesh is sinful.
I do not understand that flesh is the result of sin. There was no sin that I have read at the time of Gen.2:7
There was no sin mentioned until Gen 4:7 Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.'
What was nailed to the cross?
Was it His Spirit?
He was the spotless Lamb!
It was His flesh.
...our flesh
...all flesh.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 01, 2011, 07:55:38 AM
I do not understand that flesh is the result of sin. There was no sin that I have read at the time of Gen.2:7
There was no sin mentioned until Gen 4:7 Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.'
I agree. Adam was created as flesh, naked with his wife.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 01, 2011, 05:04:31 AM
God said in Gen 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
And then in Gen 6:20 Of the fowl after its kind, and of the cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every sort they come in unto thee, to keep alive.
And we know by reading that Gen 7:13 In this self-same day went in Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, unto the ark;
Gen 7:14 they, and every living creature after its kind, and every beast after its kind, and every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth after its kind, and every fowl after its kind, every bird--every wing.
Gen 7:15 And they come in unto Noah, unto the ark, two by two of all the flesh in which is a living spirit;
Gen 7:16 and they that are coming in, male and female of all flesh, have come in as God hath commanded him, and Jehovah doth close it for him.
My wondering is did Noah, since he was to take clean and unclean, was a human being, male and female other than Noah, his wife, Shem, Ham, and Japheth and their wives allowed into the ark?
It reads in Gen 6:19 and of all that liveth, of all flesh, two of every sort thou dost bring in unto the ark, to keep alive with thee; male and female are they.
I realize it is a strange question, but reading Gen 9:1 And God blesseth Noah, and his sons, and saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth;
Where did the tainting of the man begin if we read it was Noah and his wife, his sons and their wives?
Sorry Micah but could you rephrase what you mean I have trouble following?
Or let me try.
You're asking if there was 2 other human beings in the ark apart from Noah, his wife and their sons, sons' wives?
Do you think Noah and the rest were sinless?
Or that they weren't human beings?
Or are you seeing something else?
"You're asking if there was 2 other human beings in the ark apart from Noah, his wife and their sons, sons' wives?"
thats the question.
Why would there be?
Quote from: Quaesitor on January 01, 2011, 09:05:01 PM
Why would there be?
It reads in Gen 6:19 and of all that liveth,
of all flesh, two of every sort thou dost bring in unto the ark, to keep alive with thee; male and female are they.
Hi Micah :icon_flower:
For mine -No Only 8 souls saved [
all flesh means that of ALL creatures -each made after Their own Kind -
The scriptues relating to Naoh Pain ta Spiritual Picture-
Noah means REST- 8 means New Beginnings - the Ark Is CHRIST its measurement being 30 x 50 x 100 , each Number also dipicit HIm 100 means Child of PROMISE- 50 - HOLY SPIRIT AND 30 - THE price OF HIS Blood after Judas
The two By twos represent the Likeness of our Lord who is BOTH male and Female which equal Spirit and soul which makes the Body complete-AGAIN SHOWN IN gENESIS WITH adam[ sPIRIT] AND eVE [ SOUL]
40 declares at Time of Testing after our Lords Fourty day fast in the Wilderness
The sea where the rest of the souls Die show for mine the OLD covernant . what Known as the SEA below MENTIONED earlier in Genesis-if you picture the first work of Christ with HIS disciples this also depicts of walking above the SEA as Christ did in whats Known as the SEA ABOVE - ENCOURAGING by faith PETER TO walk above it - the oc is KNOWN as the minstry of Death right- Tis where all the Unfaithful remain-
Blessings :icon_flower:
Taffy's back!!
:bgdance:
I've been guarding these flowers for you: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2011, 03:03:43 AM
Taffy's back!!
:bgdance:
I've been guarding these flowers for you: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Hi Molly :icon_flower:
Hope your well - its been a Long year for sure this end :icon_flower:
ty for guarding those flowers- lol :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2011, 02:59:04 AM
Hi Micah :icon_flower:
For mine -No Only 8 souls saved [
all flesh means that of ALL creatures -each made after Their own Kind -
The scriptues relating to Naoh Pain ta Spiritual Picture-
Noah means REST- 8 means New Beginnings - the Ark Is CHRIST its measurement being 30 x 50 x 100 , each Number also dipicit HIm 100 means Child of PROMISE- 50 - HOLY SPIRIT AND 30 - THE price OF HIS Blood after Judas
The two By twos represent the Likeness of our Lord who is BOTH male and Female which equal Spirit and soul which makes the Body complete-AGAIN SHOWN IN gENESIS WITH adam[ sPIRIT] AND eVE [ SOUL]
40 declares at Time of Testing after our Lords Fourty day fast in the Wilderness
The sea where the rest of the souls Die show for mine the OLD covernant . what Known as the SEA below MENTIONED earlier in Genesis-if you picture the first work of Christ with HIS disciples this also depicts of walking above the SEA as Christ did in whats Known as the SEA ABOVE - ENCOURAGING by faith PETER TO walk above it - the oc is KNOWN as the minstry of Death right- Tis where all the Unfaithful remain-
Blessings :icon_flower:
Thanks kid I was asking a queery, I am aware of your info thank you though and blessings
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 01, 2011, 09:06:35 PM
Quote from: Quaesitor on January 01, 2011, 09:05:01 PM
Why would there be?
It reads in Gen 6:19 and of all that liveth, of all flesh, two of every sort thou dost bring in unto the ark, to keep alive with thee; male and female are they.
Ok and would that change anything?
What do you see?
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2011, 02:59:04 AM
Hi Micah :icon_flower:
For mine -No Only 8 souls saved [
all flesh means that of ALL creatures -each made after Their own Kind -
The scriptues relating to Naoh Pain ta Spiritual Picture-
Noah means REST- 8 means New Beginnings - the Ark Is CHRIST its measurement being 30 x 50 x 100 , each Number also dipicit HIm 100 means Child of PROMISE- 50 - HOLY SPIRIT AND 30 - THE price OF HIS Blood after Judas
The two By twos represent the Likeness of our Lord who is BOTH male and Female which equal Spirit and soul which makes the Body complete-AGAIN SHOWN IN gENESIS WITH adam[ sPIRIT] AND eVE [ SOUL]
40 declares at Time of Testing after our Lords Fourty day fast in the Wilderness
The sea where the rest of the souls Die show for mine the OLD covernant . what Known as the SEA below MENTIONED earlier in Genesis-if you picture the first work of Christ with HIS disciples this also depicts of walking above the SEA as Christ did in whats Known as the SEA ABOVE - ENCOURAGING by faith PETER TO walk above it - the oc is KNOWN as the minstry of Death right- Tis where all the Unfaithful remain-
Blessings :icon_flower:
interesting, thanks taf.
This was part of my OP God said in Gen 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
And now I wish I never would have used the second post at all, it only seemed to muddy the already murky water, verse 20 actually explained my question, it just struck me curious when this peron on TV said what he said about all flesh.
I aplogize if my question was unrully as it turned out to be.
Quote from: jabcatinteresting, thanks taf.
:icon_flower:
well for Mine James as for dead dwelling in the sea [ OC]
Men are likened to Fish
Mat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Jhn 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
:icon_flower:
There must have been more than 8 souls, and the Peter scriptures says the others perished.
Also Noah preached I think, to whom?
Quote from: thinktank on January 02, 2011, 05:37:17 PM
There must have been more than 8 souls, and the Peter scriptures says the others perished.
Also Noah preached I think, to whom?
You raise a point that I had just addressed and erased, it needs more study. May the Lord bless you and yours this year. :bigGrin:
Hello, Micah
I edited the subject heading of this thread and specified that this talks about the Flood... I was thinking if we should move this to "Word studies".. but perhaps that should be another moderator's call.
:cloud9:
Its a dead post now my friend but that was probably a good suggestion. :bigGrin:
Paolo
For mine
the threads hardly going off to far in tangents, it havnt reached page yet- my Suggestion is leave it for now
:icon_flower:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 01, 2011, 06:43:25 AM
Why do you ask what is "your sin" as if your sin is any different that mine or john doe?
Yes, WHAT IS MY SIN???
Every day an infant is born and that baby needs Jesus to redemption.
WHAT IS THAT INFANT'S SIN?????????
Specifically. What has that child done to deserve death?
CAN NO ONE ANSWER WHY AN INFANT NEEDS THE SAVIOR ?
Please,
Someone tell me what I did the moment I was born that I needed salvation.
What is an infant guilty of?
God is not cruel.
I can honestly say that until I first looked into a newborn's eyes, I had never seen anything so beautiful, so pure, and so purely innocent.
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
--Matthew 18:10
The infant hasn't sinned and doesn't need a savior. If that were not the case, salvation for all would not be clearly defined in a plethora of places in the bible. Could it be, that Christ came to teach, set an example, commune with the children of the world, and had his life cut short not because we needed it, but because his was so misunderstood? There will be a reckoning post death, and perhaps here as well, but how on earth could every knee bough and every tongue confess if not all were eventually going? Did God create you and me with the intentional thought of 3/4 of us suffering in eternal torment? Or, was he so stupid that he only figured that out after Eve ate a piece of fruit? Sheesh, no wonder people run when they see evangelicals coming with their bibles in hand, ready to beat them into submission.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 16, 2011, 07:08:41 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 01, 2011, 06:43:25 AM
Why do you ask what is "your sin" as if your sin is any different that mine or john doe?
Yes, WHAT IS MY SIN???
Every day an infant is born and that baby needs Jesus to redemption.
WHAT IS THAT INFANT'S SIN?????????
Specifically. What has that child done to deserve death?
What is our sin, or an infant's sin? Flesh, that was inherited from Adam.
CHB
whats wrong with flesh?
When one is going through life without temptation and walks in victory, the flesh is no longer evil, it is a tool for the person to walk around in and enjoy life. It only becomes evil when it is tempted to do evil, which is is inclined to do.
The animals are flesh based creatures are they sinfull?
Quote from: thinktank on January 16, 2011, 09:59:04 PM
whats wrong with flesh?
When one is going through life without temptation and walks in victory, the flesh is no longer evil,
Maybe. Maybe it's just kept under control?
QuoteThe animals are flesh based creatures are they sinfull?
No, because God didn't give laws to animals.
Without laws there never is sin.
There might not be a written law for animals, but there is a spiritual law. Cows don't eat leaves, they eat grass. Sheep don't give birth to goats, chickens don't mate with turkeys!
If they were to transgress these laws? isn't death the result.
Quote from: thinktank on January 16, 2011, 11:24:00 PM
There might not be a written law for animals, but there is a spiritual law. Cows don't eat leaves, they eat grass. Sheep don't give birth to goats, chickens don't mate with turkeys!
If they were to transgress these laws? isn't death the result.
These are not spiritual laws. They are natural ones which rule the flesh. If the flesh eats of a certain plant it will die. That is a natural law. When I let go of a pencil, it will fall...law of gravity...a natural one.
Yes but the natural world is created from the spirit, the laws exist in nature, because of what God created in the spirit. The spiritual world is a finer tuned frequency of what is in the natural.
If you take a microscope you can dig very deep into the natural and the deeper you get the finer and more spiritual it gets, even to the point where one can detect spiritual energy.
But I guess you are right from a certain viewpoint and it is easier to place a natural law as a natural law to makes sense to our minds ,i.e keep apples, apples and lets not be confused to much by the seed and the tree that birthed it.
But lets call it a natural law, but the law still exists, so that cows eat grass and not meat and if these are broken death is the result. As a doctor you probably witness many patient eating things that are against natural laws, and this causes them problems, a cycle of death, but if they did things properly the flesh would be in harmony, and so where is the sin?
Quote from: thinktank on January 16, 2011, 11:43:06 PM
Yes but the natural world is created from the spirit, the laws exist in nature, because of what God created in the spirit. The spiritual world is a finer tuned frequency of what is in the natural.
If you take a microscope you can dig very deep into the natural and the deeper you get the finer and more spiritual it gets, even to the point where one can detect spiritual energy.
But I guess you are right from a certain viewpoint and it is easier to place a natural law as a natural law to makes sense to our minds ,i.e keep apples, apples and lets not be confused to much by the seed and the tree that birthed it.
But lets call it a natural law, but the law still exists, so that cows eat grass and not meat and if these are broken death is the result. As a doctor you probably witness many patient eating things that are against natural laws, and this causes them problems, a cycle of death, but if they did things properly the flesh would be in harmony, and so where is the sin?
Spiritual sins only apply to spiritual beings who know right from wrong. While there might be natural consequences to an act of ignorance there is no condemnation (a spiritual consequence). People that eat without regard to their bodies not only hurt their body (with natural consequences) they abuse the temple of the Holy Spirit (spiritual sin with spiritual consequences).
Yes, the body is a temple :bigGrin Jesus said I will destroy this temple and raise it up in three days.
So how can the temple be a temple if the material it is made of is sinfull?
If the material is sinfull, then if one were to eat unclean foods, e.g tobacco smoking , then one is making an unclean temple, more unclean?
Quote from: thinktank on January 17, 2011, 12:06:43 AM
Yes, the body is a temple :bigGrin Jesus said I will destroy this temple and raise it up in three days.
So how can the temple be a temple if the material it is made of is sinfull?
If the material is sinfull, then if one were to eat unclean foods, e.g tobacco smoking , then one is making an unclean temple, more unclean?
I am not as Biblically educated as some here but when I think of flesh...I think "flesh" meaning carnal thinking that leads to indulging pleasures of the flesh that are harmful to the spirit. I do not believe the body itself is inherently evil. I do think the body is inherently weak...subject to illness and death.
Quote from: CHB on January 16, 2011, 08:20:13 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 16, 2011, 07:08:41 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 01, 2011, 06:43:25 AM
Why do you ask what is "your sin" as if your sin is any different that mine or john doe?
Yes, WHAT IS MY SIN???
Every day an infant is born and that baby needs Jesus to redemption.
WHAT IS THAT INFANT'S SIN?????????
Specifically. What has that child done to deserve death?
Rom 7:18 for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find,
What is our sin, or an infant's sin? Flesh, that was inherited from Adam.
CHB
A tree is inherently neutral. It is neither good or evil. It can be chopped down and used to build shelter, or the fruit from it can be eaten. In that sense, it can be used for good. It can also be chopped down and formed into clubs in which one can beat and murder their neighbor.
I believe the body to be same. I believe when the Bible speaks of the flesh...it isn't always referring to actual flesh but rather that rebellious and carnal parts of our soul that want to use the flesh for pleasures outside the will of God. :2c:
:cloud9: Not all flesh is the same flesh; there is natural flesh, flesh like lust, hate, bitterness, ect., and we are even told there is celestial (or spiritual) flesh/bodies (He wasn't just talking about stars there). :2c:
New Testament tells us there are no unclean foods. They weren't expected to live the Mosaic law. And the physical act of doing something like eating properly is good for our bodies, but cannot change the message of grace.
To him that knows what they should do and doesn't do it . . .to him it is sin. Sin merely means missing the mark. An infant knows nothing about good or evil. Each child grows into that understanding on an individual basis. Traditional church thinking is, infants that die go to heaven because they are still in their innocense . . . and then people who are mature enough to make a conscious decision will go to heaven or hell based on their decision making. You don't hear much about someone who is mentally impaired as to where they go.
"my" sin that is the same as "your" sin is when I miss the mark. But that missing the mark is where it becomes different to each individual. It's actually defying your conscience.
Then there is flesh that is literal (skin) which isn't sinful, but there is also flesh (carnality) which can take the first dimension of flesh (skin) and turn into something sinful (lust of the flesh).
We live in skin because it's our garment to protect us from disease, infection and so forth, it's purpose is to enable us to sustain life in this realm of death. I for one, don't believe Adam, when he was created as a person, was in the same flesh we're in now. I believe God covered him with this "skin" covering after he fell from the garden. Originally, his body did have structure, but it was in a spiritual environment . . the garden was a spiritual realm . . . but when he ate the fruit of knowledge, he chose to be governed by the laws of that tree.
Everyone born into this flesh is also governed by the same laws of the flesh. But flesh profiteth nothing. If I leave my flesh up to it's own desires, it will lead to my destruction. That is the nature of the flesh, it leads to death. This is the realm of death and our flesh is influenced by the laws governing this realm.
Not sure if this helps . . .just thinking out loud really.
Quote from: Nathan on January 17, 2011, 06:05:15 PM
To him that knows what they should do and doesn't do it . . .to him it is sin. Sin merely means missing the mark. An infant knows nothing about good or evil. Each child grows into that understanding on an individual basis. Traditional church thinking is, infants that die go to heaven because they are still in their innocense . . . and then people who are mature enough to make a conscious decision will go to heaven or hell based on their decision making. You don't hear much about someone who is mentally impaired as to where they go.
"Not sure if this helps . . .just thinking out loud really.
Let me also think out loud. I have a belief, that I can't pull exact, specific scriptures for. I think it's based at least on multiple scrips, trying to "put them together into a whole". I think of few stripes/many stripes, much given/much required, every knee bow/every tongue confess along with the Lake of Fire being corrective, purifying, bringing to repentance, and then how much correction and "repentance" would a child, a mentally infirm, or a kind softhearted individual who had never even heard of Jesus actually need? (Or maybe I'm making it up :mblush:). But my belief is that some hardened, "evil through and through" individuals' temporary corrective discipline may be of a longer "age" than those mentioned above - the child, infirm, etc. It may take Hitler a whole lot of "squirming", fighting, corrective punishment before responding to the Spirit with repentance and confession. Whereas the others may see Jesus, realize who He is, confess Him joyfully. I may be wrong on this, again, just some "tentative" thoughts.
If you think about it . . .wasn't Saul a form of Hitler before he was transformed into Paul? He set out to cleanse the land of "Christians" in the same manner that Hitler set out to cleanse the world of Jews . . .only difference is the magnitude of numbers . . .but the intent in the heart was very similar.
Revelation only takes an instant to illuminate . . .anything that Hitler went through after taking his own life is only assumptions after that.
Well, I've considered that too. That everyone's "after death the judgment", and "age of correction" may not only be at different times, but pretty "instant". I actually sort of prefer this possibility, but then I really don't know for sure how God sees it or what His method there is.
I just thought of this though, related to the OP. Those disobedient in the days of Noah that Jesus went and preached to, and led them out, were apparently in "holding" for awhile?
Yeah, until the "New Covenant" arrived . . .so I can't really put much weight on the idea that this is still the case now.
OK, maybe so. That does make sense. The next age...
Quote from: jabcat on January 17, 2011, 07:27:46 PM
I just thought of this though, related to the OP. Those disobedient in the days of Noah that Jesus went and preached to, and led them out, were apparently in "holding" for awhile?
Was Noach himself also in "holding". He was a good guy but not a follower of Jesus... :dontknow:
Hmm...interesting question. No definitive answer, but some thoughts; I think Noah would be described as obedient, while the ones noted as being held are described as disobedient. However, since the law doesn't save, what truly saved Noah - and Abraham, and Sarah, and Moses? Bible says Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness. Some say that the OT "saints" were saved because they "looked forward to the Messiah", in essence, "believed". Maybe they fit in that group that weren't necessarily being punished, but still were being held until they came face to face with Jesus, their bowing and confessing was instant (recognizing Him and Lord and Savior) and were led out as well? Hmmm again. :bigGrin:
I've also been thinking about The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Could it be that His 'saving power' was already in effect even before Adam was created?
Then the only thing Abraham had to do after his death was to kneel for Jesus. (Just like anyone that dies today and never heart of Jesus)
:dontknow:
Good or bad, these are right along the lines of some of the things I've been thinking, except His saving power already being in effect is a bit of newer thought for me, and I think it's intrigueing. Maybe so!
I thought about it a several times since Cardinal wrote about the exploding cross.
I just had to wait for a thread I could use to spam the idea.
I missed the exploding cross reference.
I'm reminded of the Dora Van Assen information, her vision of the cross' rays reaching everywhere - all times, all locations, etc.
"In due time, all in Christ".
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/lighthouse_library_international_8571.msg102999.html#msg102999
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=6840&searchfor=||VAN%20ASSEN,%20DORA||&type=&what=author
'
This line of thought also falls in line with the "finished works" of the cross in that everything in the spirit is already completed and fulfilled. What Jesus did 2000 years ago was simply manifesting in this realm what was already accomplished in the spirit realm. He said himself that he did nothing on this earth that he didn't already see God the Father doing in heaven.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth AS IT IS in heaven.
So . . .in that light, I'd have to say that even though there was no completion of the redemptive work in this realm until Jesus came . . .once the patriarchs passed over into the realm of the spirit, the finished works immediately took affect.
Let me also think out loud. I have a belief, that I can't pull exact, specific scriptures for. I think it's based at least on multiple scrips, trying to "put them together into a whole". I think of few stripes/many stripes, much given/much required, every knee bow/every tongue confess along with the Lake of Fire being corrective, purifying, bringing to repentance, and then how much correction and "repentance" would a child, a mentally infirm, or a kind softhearted individual who had never even heard of Jesus actually need? (Or maybe I'm making it up :mblush:). But my belief is that some hardened, "evil through and through" individuals' temporary corrective discipline may be of a longer "age" than those mentioned above - the child, infirm, etc. It may take Hitler a whole lot of "squirming", fighting, corrective punishment before responding to the Spirit with repentance and confession. Whereas the others may see Jesus, realize who He is, confess Him joyfully. I may be wrong on this, again, just some "tentative" thoughts.
jabcat
Expanding on your thoughts I don't see how sauls encounter with Jesus would change his heart, so quickly. I think in an infants case it would change very easilly and I think the reason Saul changed so quickly, was because he woke up to who he was, as a chosen vessel to bring the gospel to the nations. If Hitler had a similar experience to what saul encountered, he would probably be mezmerized and then a week later forget about it and go back to his plans of ruling the world.
But again I do not not know Hitler as to why he did what he did, it seems to be that his henchmen were much more evil than he was, e.g the gestapo and the ss, did a lot of thuggish things.
Actually, for me, I don't need to know how hard Hitler was . . .I already know how powerful Christ is. If he doesn't want you to be overcome by the enemy, he'll open oceans for you for dry passage and yet calamity for anyone trying to follow your footsteps. Yet at the same time, should you run from his calling for you to reach out to others, he'll cause those same waters to come against the very belief system you hide in to keep yourself afloat. At least until we learn that this great thing God has done is not about us, it's about Him revealing his nature . . .his illumination, his glory . . .love can not be love unless it's manifesting love. We're merely the recipients, the objects to which he's chosen to express his nature. He's obssessed with us . . .how cool is that!!
:cloud9: The reference to the "exploding cross", was a vision I had where I perceived what I could only call an explosion of the Spirit coming from the cross, and it went in both left and right directions at the same time. I saw all the scenes in the Bible, poured into me rapid fire, both OT and NT scenes sort of at once, and was given understanding on them (He only let me consciously remember one) as they were like "dropped" into my spirit. The ones to my left were OT scenes, the ones to my right, NT scenes. I have recently met someone on Facebook who had a similar vision and experience. I believe the understanding was dropped into my spirit, to be "remembered" in season. Blessings....
Ok, but did it align with my thought (a little)?
:cloud9: Yes......
Just found an acorn :bgdance:
Saving grace was probably already in effect, however Christ went to those who had passed on to teach them what they should have learned about his ways while they were here and he wasn't.
I'm not so sure . . .
If his nature comes to us through personal revelation by the Father in this realm, rather than through teaching and instruction, for me, when we pass over into the spirit, all things then become fulfilled in us, including all understanding of who he is, what he's done and all that it entails . . . which would be through spiritual illumination, unveiling, revelation . . . Either way, all who are in the fulness of his completion come to the same destination of who he is in every aspect.
Gen 6:8 And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2011, 01:23:36 AM
Gen 6:8 And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.
What do you mean Micah?
That the verse proves grace was already in effect?
(Not arguing. Just asking)
Hebrews 8
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
If teaching ceases in this realm, which is the lowest realm . . . then I don't see it being necessary in the highest realm. There is no missing the mark once we cross over into the spirit. There is no unrighteousness, those things only occur in this realm. Which for me also fits in with the idea of paying a penalty after we're in the spirit . . .after we die . . .for acts that we did while here on earth. How can God penalize us for something he declares he'll remember no more?
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:11:34 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2011, 01:23:36 AM
Gen 6:8 And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.
What do you mean Micah?
That the verse proves grace was already in effect?
(Not arguing. Just asking)
Yes. :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2011, 08:52:20 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:11:34 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2011, 01:23:36 AM
Gen 6:8 And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.
What do you mean Micah?
That the verse proves grace was already in effect?
(Not arguing. Just asking)
Yes. :bigGrin:
Ok earned is not the correct word but by lack of better; Noach earned grace by being a very good man.
Does that mean others not being on the ark also weer given grace?
Gen 6:9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
Gen 7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.
For mine this stems back to the Garden and the second BORNof EVE- first the Natural MANN[ OLD MAN] the second[The spiritual Man- NEW MAN-
Note he was PERFECT in his Generations - Not defiling himself with those Born after Cain- THE NATURAL man-
ALL men become corrupted after the WAY of CAIN
Gen 6:12-13And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. (13) And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
The ARK and Noah depict salvation- Its another Type and shadow- :icon_flower:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2011, 09:23:59 PM
I dont see grace being "earned" also as it has been revealed to me, Noe found grace in Jehovahs eyes, I believe Noe was seeking. Noe was living in a "bad" time, he was seeking a rest (Noe=rest) and he found it(favour) in Yahwehs eyes, rather than the way I was always taught that Noe was found with grace.
Grace can't be earned. It's just I can't find a better way to explain it.
Let we ask it very directly: Did the the hitler of Noach's time found/recieved grace?
QuoteHope I said that properly the way I wanted to. :bigGrin:
I don't know because I don't know what you wanted to explain :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:45:33 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2011, 09:23:59 PM
I dont see grace being "earned" also as it has been revealed to me, Noe found grace in Jehovahs eyes, I believe Noe was seeking. Noe was living in a "bad" time, he was seeking a rest (Noe=rest) and he found it(favour) in Yahwehs eyes, rather than the way I was always taught that Noe was found with grace.
Grace can't be earned. It's just I can't find a better way to explain it.
Let we ask it very directly: Did the the hitler of Noach's time found/recieved grace?
QuoteHope I said that properly the way I wanted to. :bigGrin:
I don't know because I don't know what you wanted to explain :winkgrin:
My mistake. :sigh:
Why the sad smiley Micah?
:cloud9: While I'm sure there is even more depth to it (there ALWAYS is) from an old study of mine on the topic.......when we set our eyes on Him our "forehead" (think of what is below the brow = eye) becomes like a flint. God being a consuming FIRE, "ignites" the flint and the new heaven (mind of Christ) begins to be formed in us. And so Paul prayed that the eyes of understanding would be opened, ie. MADE ALIVE (closed eyes synonym for death), the veil rent that we might see Him as He is = Spirit.
He destroys with water/letter of law/waters below the firmament, He creates with fire/Spirit of Truth, mercy and grace/firmament.
For a real eye opener (pun intended :laughing7:), check out Hebrew words for adamant, thorns, diamond, flint, forehead, briars, keep (as in covenant or keep sabbath), and note the more "important" places those words are used.
When Moses saw the burning bush, it was a thorn bush, a "mirror image" of his own soul's spiritual condition, set on fire. He had to TURN to see it. My guess is, the Spirit and his conscience were working overtime on him to repent of being a murderer. So much for God destroying the souls of men in the fire; it is unpleasant but CORRECTIVE in nature, the bush was NOT destroyed.
Take THAT, ET'ers, LOL...... :msealed: :winkgrin: open the eyes of their understanding too, Lord........Blessings....
:icon_flower: ty Card
Never saw that before about the Bush- :icon_flower:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 10:10:35 PM
Why the sad smiley Micah?
A "sad" "smiley" that just about says it all oxymoron. Adios