I have a question or an idea and it may be silly but I am going to ask it any way. It may have already been discussed in another thread but her it goes any way.
I was wondering or thinking when God created Adam and Eve was it actually more than one? In other words when God created man were there several?
When I read about Cain killing Abel, Cain spoke of the other people wanting to kill him. Where or when did these others come from?
i think it's an interesting question...and...i don't know :)
so part of the question is, does (at least part of) the creation account have some allegory to it...or at least is a picture of a more encompassing event(s).
boy, that should start a broohaha :footmouth:
I hope it does!! I have had this thought about the creation of man for quite a while. It just makes sense that the creation of Adam/man was actually more than one. I hope someone can shed some light on this one.
I don't know either, though I have often wondered that myself. Adam does seem to be a general word for "man" or mankind, but on the other hand he does converse with God in Genesis, and Paul refers to Adam as "one man" by which sin came into the world, as compared to one other man who is Jesus Christ.
There definitely seems to be a certain level of metaphor possible. I suppose one of the other evidences for Adam being an actual man (beside that which Seth mentioned) is the genealogies of Genesis and Christ that go man by man from Adam and back to Adam respectively.
Another interesting point I heard made (and that I believe to be true off the top of my head) is that Adam is not mentioned after Genesis until the New Testament, which is a little odd to say the least! There is definitely some mystery to Eden!
Think on this:
Adam and Hhawah bore Sheth when Adam was 130 years old (or 250 years if you believe the LXX). It may be assumed that they bore Qayin, then Hebel, THEN Sheth, but it is highly improbable that over 100 (or 200) years went by after Hebel was born with no further children being born. Although the text speaks of his having sons and daughters during the 800 years (or 700 according to the LXX) AFTER Sheth was born, they most likely had children after Hebel, and before Sheth as well, who would grow up and appear to be the ones Qayin was referring to.
I am not against the idea of a level of meaning as regards a metaphor, but the Pardes (the plain and simple) interpretation, whatever it may be, must not be discounted.
Ronen
Seth I completely did not take into consideration the one man sin entered and by one man,Christ,scripture.
I was reading this last night
Genesis 5:1–:2 5\
This is the scroll of the genealogical records of Adam.
On the day Elohim created
− Adam, in the likeness of Elohim
He made him.
2 Male and female He created them, and He blessed them and called their name Human on the day they were created .(CLV)
1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.(KJV)
Now this really got the wheels turning in my head and it was not a pretty site and the smoke coming out of my ears set the smoke detector off :laugh:
Now we see different ethnic people like Asian, White,Black,ect... and the wheels really started turning then and thought I would loose a few teeth out the gears :laugh:
in some of the lost books..it states that when Cain and Abel were born..each had
an accompanying female born with them male/female twins. something to consider,
Quote from: Shev on August 10, 2014, 07:42:15 AMAnother interesting point I heard made (and that I believe to be true off the top of my head) is that Adam is not mentioned after Genesis until the New Testament, which is a little odd to say the least! There is definitely some mystery to Eden!
Here is one:
Adam, Seth, Enosh,
(1Ch 1:1)
Thanks Gregory. Shows what I know!
You know quite a bit, dear brother. :friendstu:
Quote from: sheila on August 10, 2014, 06:43:34 PM
in some of the lost books..it states that when Cain and Abel were born..each had
an accompanying female born with them male/female twins. something to consider,
From a literalist historical perspective:
Adam and Eve, If they bore children even every five years for 500 years, could have brought forth over 100 children, who in turn, if even only 75% of the women bore children once every 5 years, could have brought forth as many as 5000 children. Within 2-300 years of Abels birth there could easily have been four to five generations of offspring totaling ,depending on the many varables, anywhere from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of adult people on the earth. Since Adam lived 900 years or so, I am only allowing 500 childbearing years for Eve. It could have been higher.
After Cain killed Abel and was banished, it is written he knew his wife and conceived a son, and then he built a city, named after his son. Cities are built for fairly large numbers of people. One of Cains children was the father of tribes that lived in tents. Since God had commanded Adam to be fruitful and multiply it is reasonable to conceive that these first men and women, who lived hundreds of years, did exactly that in abundance and there numbers likey grew exponentially, quite quickly.
The so- called contradiction of who the sons yand daughters of Adam and Eve married is really not at all difficult to resoven when a person considers that the narration covers hundreds of years in a few verses. There may have been many children born before they began to marry.
Quote from: gregoryfl on August 11, 2014, 04:19:52 PM
You know quite a bit, dear brother. :friendstu:
Thanks brother. It is a good lesson not to pass on something without having researched it for myself though! :Chinscratch:
Quote from: rsimpson14 on August 09, 2014, 05:40:12 PM
I have a question or an idea and it may be silly but I am going to ask it any way. It may have already been discussed in another thread but her it goes any way.
I was wondering or thinking when God created Adam and Eve was it actually more than one? In other words when God created man were there several?
When I read about Cain killing Abel, Cain spoke of the other people wanting to kill him. Where or when did these others come from?
P.S. - "Eve, the mother of us all.." ..the oldest artifacts are of a sort of heavy mother 'god'.. later versions were slim and sexier looking.. I've wondered these mother 'gods' didn't begin as fuzzy memories of Eve.. passed down..
Doesn't it say all came from Adam? "Through one man Adam came death, and in the same way, through Christ" (one) "came life"... (1 cor 15)
Consider the very long lives of the first people. By time Cain slew Abel, which their ages are not given, there could have been thousands of people.. [They were able to marry their sibling as the genetic code was not narrowed, as it is today, therefor there was no danger for the offspring..]
:Peace2:
P.S. "Eve the mother of us all.." ..some of the oldest artifacts are of a sort of heavy mother 'god'.. later mother 'gods' were slimmer, sexier.. I have wondered if this mother 'god' didn't begin as fuzzy memories of Eve passed down.. (and if perhaps Eve became heavy during her life, just a thought I've had)
Yes it is true that others were born I am sure but it states cities were built and cities usually have many, many people. I always wondered about the incest thing and I am sure the DNA was there from the creation.
Still wondering on this??????
Thanks for the many replies
bob
Gen.1:26 And Elohim |said: Let Us make humanity in Our image 7and
according to Our likeness. + Let them hold sway over the fish of
27 So Elohim created `.humanity in His image; in the image of
Elohim He created `it: male and female He created `them. (Concordant OT)
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul....
8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.....
21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh....
Ge 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
According to this account in Genesis, one man, one woman appears to have merit.
It's a lot of reading but very interesting I think.
I will just give a very short summary of two alternative ways of reading the ages:
1]
Ronen already mentioned the ages differ between the LXX and other translations. That could be due to translation errors (not errors in the manuscripts).
Over the ages there where several ways of writing down numbers. Not always fully understood by the translators.I will use Adam as an example.
Seth born at age of 130. Adam dies at the age of 930. --> The usual translation
Seth born at age of 23. Adam dies at the age of 81 or 93. --> The proposed translation
http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com/images/PDF/Genesis5analysis.pdf
2]
Simply put all ages are total fake. We all know that numbers like 7 and 12 have a special meaning. Ancients has numbers with special meanings too. The numbers are poured in a formula that gives us the numbers we read in Genesis.
All ages end with 0, 5, 7 or 2 which as a hidden meaning
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Hill.pdf
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2004/PSCF6-04Johnson.pdf
http://www.asa3.org/ed/Chapter3.pdf
BTW "Father" should be taken very loosely. It can mean ancestor.
Let me first say that I do believe in one man, Adam, and out of that man God made woman. Also there are many things I would like to say but I cannot. Not that I would not but that I cannot. Some things are best left in the sanctuary.
Eze 44:17 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.
19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.
Does this sound familiar?
Mr 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Mr 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
David had nearly (well nigh) slipped when he beheld the prosperity of the wicked...until he entered into the sanctuary then he understood their end. Some things can only be understood by those that go into the sanctuary. The sanctuary, also known as the secret of His pavilion, the secret place of the Most High, the shadow of His wings, and the Holy of Holies---------is where He will explain everything to us in secret.
So be still and know that He Is God.
_____________________________________________________________________
"Earth is crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God; But only he who sees, takes off his shoes." (Browning)
Quote from: rsimpson14 on August 09, 2014, 05:40:12 PM
I have a question or an idea and it may be silly but I am going to ask it any way. It may have already been discussed in another thread but her it goes any way.
I was wondering or thinking when God created Adam and Eve was it actually more than one? In other words when God created man were there several?
When I read about Cain killing Abel, Cain spoke of the other people wanting to kill him. Where or when did these others come from?
"For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead." (1 Corinthians 15:21)
"The human called his wife's name Eve, for she would become the mother of all the living." (Genesis 3:20)
"Yahweh Elohim formed the human out of soil from the ground, and He blew in to his nostrils the breath of life; and the human became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)
"Then Yahweh Elohim caused a stupor to fall on the human. While he was sleeping, He took one of his angular organs and closed up the flesh over its place. Yahweh Elohim built the angular organ that He had taken from the human into a woman and brought her to the human. The human said: This time, it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This shall be called woman, for this was taken from her man. Therefore a man shall forsake his father and his mother; he will cling to his wife, and both of them
will be one flesh." (Genesis 2:21-24)
Quote from: rsimpson14 on August 09, 2014, 05:40:12 PM
When I read about Cain killing Abel, Cain spoke of the other people wanting to kill him. Where or when did these others come from?
I think those "people" were the same "people" from whom Cain got his wife. They were the children of Adam and Eve. They could have been Cain's brothers and sisters or nieces and nephews, right? The genetic pool had not been so corrupted then as it is today, and therefore there was no prohibition against marrying a sister or brother yet.
With the lifespans back then Cain could have married his 2nd cousins daughter- whatever that would be categorized as ;o)
I agree. I think folks just get spooked about incest, but that law came much later.
Incest? Just curious :dontknow:
Yeah, that seems to be what keeps most folks from being able to realize where Cain's wife had to come from.
Since Adam and Eve begat children that knew each other and took each other as man and woman (married) who begat more children and so forth, was incest, per say, acceptable or allowed at this time in man's history?
Abram (not yet Abraham) married his half-sister. IIRC, Isaac and Jacob married cousins. It was common in ancient times. From David's time, we have the story of one of David's sons raping his half-sister and then rejecting her plea to marry, which would have made it "OK" under the Law.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 06, 2014, 04:32:16 AM
Abram (not yet Abraham) married his half-sister. IIRC, Isaac and Jacob married cousins. It was common in ancient times. From David's time, we have the story of one of David's sons raping his half-sister and then rejecting her plea to marry, which would have made it "OK" under the Law.
So incest is not necessarily a sin, right?
If it is lawful under the law of the land, it's ok?
Therefore, morality is subjective and not absolute?
My opinion, the law made sin, laws make things illegal. :2c:
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 06, 2014, 04:42:22 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 06, 2014, 04:32:16 AM
Abram (not yet Abraham) married his half-sister. IIRC, Isaac and Jacob married cousins. It was common in ancient times. From David's time, we have the story of one of David's sons raping his half-sister and then rejecting her plea to marry, which would have made it "OK" under the Law.
So incest is not necessarily a sin, right?
If it is lawful under the law of the land, it's ok?
Therefore, morality is subjective and not absolute?
Adam had his clone for a wife - by design.
Abram (the friend of God) had his half-sister for a wife - by design.
Later, inbreeding, or rather the results of it, began to be a problem, so God made it a part of the Law He gave to Moses, not to marry a close relative. Remember that it was man's sin which led to this result.
Think outside the box - is incest inherently sinful or just an offense to our mores? I have a set of cousins who are both first and third cousins because their dad and my mom were brother and sister, and my dad and their mom were cousins. A lot of people look at me funny when I tell them that, but it's not incest, just sounds like it until you think it through.
Looking ahead, what do you think of the coming marriage between the Lamb (Jesus) and the distant descendants of a man and woman He (Jesus) created? :Chinscratch: :dontknow: :Chinscratch:
Why would we think it a strange thing that near kin would marry, does not the Word of the Lord reveal that this kind of thing did take place even among the called and chosen.
Ge 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
Ex 2:1 ¶ And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi.
Ex 6:16 And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations; Gershon, and Kohath, and Merari: and the years of the life of Levi were an hundred thirty and seven years.
17 The sons of Gershon; Libni, and Shimi, according to their families.
18 And the sons of Kohath; Amram, and Izhar, and Hebron, and Uzziel: and the years of the life of Kohath were an hundred thirty and three years.
19 And the sons of Merari; Mahali and Mushi: these are the families of Levi according to their generations.
20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram were an hundred and thirty and seven years.
Even if inner marrying were strictly forbidden from the beginning I would have to ask this question. When did man at any time in history obey God without fail? For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever...
May God bless.